 Welcome to Healthy Planet, the show for people who care about their health and the health of our planet on the Think Tech Live Streaming Network series. I'm your host, Dr. Grace O'Neill. Joining me today is Matt Feldman, founder of Moku Foods. Welcome, Matt. Thank you, Grace. Great to be here. Thank you for being on the show. So tell us about your journey and how you started Moku Foods. Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, it all started back just growing up in Hawaii on Oahu and I spent a lot of time outdoors and was very passionate about the environment and sustainability from a young age. And I think growing up on an island, you know, we just feel more responsible for our actions and how it impacts both, you know, the island and the planet in general. So I knew from an early age that I would wanna start my own business centered around sustainability. You know, fast forward, I went to school actually for finance but ended up working in tech in the Bay Area. And I was kind of just waiting for the next idea to pop up. And in 2018, I had watched a documentary called What the Health on Netflix and it inspired me to try out a vegan diet. So, you know, I ate completely plant-based for two weeks, you know, assessed how I felt. And for me, you know, my energy levels were higher. You know, my physical shape was better. Spiritual connection was better. So I adopted, you know, a plant-based lifestyle from there. And that was kind of what spurred everything. Wonderful. So how long has it been that you've been plant-based? It's been seven years so far. Wow. So why mushrooms? Why mushroom jerky? Is there a specific connection you had to mushrooms or? So when I switched to plant-based, I had started a vegan meetup in San Francisco just because I knew really nothing about veganism. I didn't know anyone that was vegan and I was really just trying to learn more and garner a community. And I had everyone that came bring a snack or, you know, a plate of food or something that they can make. And for me, I, you know, I was looking for a savory snack and since I couldn't eat meat jerky, I started making mushroom jerky for my house just using an online recipe and, you know, sampled it out to family and friends. And I chose mushrooms just because I was looking for something meaty, something that had that meat-like texture, but I'm also intolerant to both gluten and soy. So mushrooms were that perfect medium of being meaty, you know, good for our bodies and also good for the planet. And then in terms of the mushrooms, you guys use king oyster mushrooms for your jerky? Yep, king oyster, also called king trumpet. So the king oyster, why was that the perfect mushroom for your jerky versus say like just normal oyster mushrooms or the other types of mushrooms? Yeah, so when I started off, I was making portobella mushroom jerky and when I decided to pursue it as a business, I ended up finding a Michelin star chef in Berkeley by the name of Thomas Bowman. And he was one of the people who created Just Egg. So he was, you know, very involved with, you know, plant-based foods and plant-based alternatives. And he was, you know, helping me play around with a bunch of different mushrooms. And we landed on king oyster because the stem of the king oyster is very meaty. And portobella and, you know, shiitake are also good, but, you know, in terms of price and meaty texture, the king oyster mushroom was the perfect one. Yeah, and where do you source your mushrooms from? Are they grown in the United States or abroad? They're grown abroad. So we sourced them from an indoor farm in China and this farm grows them organically indoors on logs. So we test for everything, but since they're not grown in soil, there's no heavy metals or anything like that. And what's cool about what I learned about king oyster mushrooms and many other mushrooms is that they can't use chemicals to grow. Like it's physically impossible. Because, you know, I wanted to, first thing I wanted to make sure was that there was no synthetic fertilizers or pesticides being used. And what's great is that the mushrooms can't grow in chemicals. So it was nice to know that, you know, that wasn't even an option. No, that's great because, I mean, a lot of people, they're eating beef jerky and they don't realize how many toxic metals there are in, you know, beef jerky just by the nature of, you know, what the cows are eating and everything. So, you know, that's great to know that, you know, when you're eating brokered jerky, that has nothing that could be dangerous like that, you know. Absolutely. Some plant-based foods, you know, like rice, the takes of arsenic, you know, so you have to be very careful when you buy your rice and everything too. So, you know, even if you're trying to be healthy, I'm not eating, you know, animal products, you could still end up getting toxic metal in your body, you know. So tell me about the, you know, do you dehydrate the mushrooms? Do, like, what's the process? I don't wanna necessarily have you give away trade secrets, but just the basics. Yeah, so when we started, it took a long time for us to nail down the texture because with mushroom jerky, it typically either comes out too wet and sticky or too hard and it's really hard to get the marinade to adhere completely into the mushrooms and cook it in a way that leaves it both chewy but also dry enough to where it doesn't clump together in the bag or doesn't leave your hands, you know, all sticky. So we actually worked with both Thomas as well as another Michelin star chef and product developer named Ali Buzari. And he helped us, you know, optimize our process to where it was different than all the other vegan and mushroom jerkeys to taste as much like meat jerky as possible. So without giving too much away, we, you know, we use the Kingweiser mushrooms and then we have a marinade that consists of, you know, so it's a soy free gluten free vegan marinade. We use alternatives like coconut, Minos, chickpea miso, our natural sweeteners maple syrup. We use fermented rice extract for, you know, umami and we have a three step cooking process that makes our jerky very different from, you know, other jerkeys. And, you know, it took a long time to commercialize and develop, but it's paid off because we feel we have the medius jerky that's, you know, tastes really good but doesn't compromise on the ingredient label or the price, you know, we're priced very competitively with beef jerky. Yeah. So tell me, you know, when you say we is do you have any co-founders or is this just basically you and then you looked at a whole bunch of Michelin chefs and got them to participate or what do you mean when you say we? For the most part, when I say we, I'm referring to myself, but, you know, it's, it feels like we're just getting started because it's our first year in retail stores but the journey started, you know, back in 2018. So it's been half a decade for me in this and, you know, from the beginning I've had, I've worked with a lot of different people, you know, you know, worked in the beginning with, you know, an advisor who, you know, kind of introduced me to a lot of people in the food world and then I met Thomas, him and I worked together for a year before he started his company. And then I had an initial co-founder who was a great help for the, you know, she was around for the first two years and then, you know, I've hired people on the marketing side but now I have a COO who I recently brought on board in May. He's not full full-time, but he's around a lot and he's helped a lot on the financial side and the operating side, but it's funny. I do get that question for whatever reason I just always refer to the company as we just because I try to separate myself from the company so that I'm not the company, you know, that'll probably be a little too unhealthy but I have had a lot of help along the way. It's not just myself. And so I can't remember how I heard about your company but I've been ordering, you know, every once in a while I order like a box and a bulk and I'm wondering, you know, your packaging. I know there was something on the website too that you're working on more sustainable packaging. What kind of ideas do you have for more sustainable packaging? Because I don't know if you could, another thing is I was thinking, could you put more in a bag? Because I think people might want more than a single serving bag. I mean, I eat them, lots of times I'll take them to work and I'll eat one like over the course of my shift or whatever. So, you know, I mean, I feel like you could make like a bigger serving bags maybe and then you would use less of the packaging, you know. No, yeah, great question. I'll start with the first one. So, like ideally we would be using compostable packaging, one that, you know, you throw into the landfill and eventually, you know, turns into compost and, you know, dirt but unfortunately like jerky in and of itself needs to have a long shelf life at least a year. So the material can't break down too soon. So there isn't an available bag, at least that we know of that's around that is both durable for at least a year and compostable. So then the other option is recyclable but we haven't found a recyclable bag that people can throw into their blue bin, you know, their curbside blue bin. The recyclable option right now is an industrial recyclable, which means you have to ship back the bag to a specific, you know, warehouse or bring it back to the store and that's great and all but 99% of people don't do that. And what they do is they think it's, you know, curbside recyclable. So they throw it in their blue bin but then when it gets picked up, they see that it's not curbside recyclable and then they dispose of the whole thing in landfill. So that option is more expensive and it usually does more harm than good. So we're in a place now where we're kind of waiting. It's not really up to us to create the bag. You know, we're focused on producing a more sustainable and healthier jerky compared to meat jerky but you know, with that said, as soon as there is a viable option on the packaging side, like we're gonna jump on it. And then in terms of, you know, bulk sizes, yeah, we have a two ounce two serving bag but we're also working on a 10 ounce bulk bag which was all on, yeah. A lot of people have been demanding that. So it's about time but hopefully we'll be launching that in Costco in the next year and then we'll also be selling it. That'd be awesome. Yeah. It's a step to Costco. So, you know, a lot of things at Costco though, they, I guess they just launch at Costco but then they are not available at Costco anymore. I mean, I guess there's a number of factors. Like sometimes if something doesn't have a certain amount of sales then the Costco store will repeat order it. And then some people just wanna launch at Costco. So I don't know what your thoughts are on that. Costco is tricky. Just like you said, you know, if you launch and you don't do well, like they cut you immediately and it's very hard to get back in. And it's also, you also have to prepare on the material side for scale at Costco. So when you do your nine week test, you know, you have to prepare for further than nine weeks out. So you're buying material that you might only be able to use at Costco since it's all bulk sizes. And if they cut you, then you're left with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of material. So it's tricky for brands at our stage to get into Costco. But on the other end of the spectrum, you know, if you do do well at Costco, you know, it could change everything. Like it's so much more volume than whole foods or your grocery store accounts. So it's tricky. Like it really depends on how far you are in, how well capitalized your business is and if you think you can handle it. Because a lot of people say, a lot of the experts in the industry say like, it's not about like getting into Costco. It's about whether you can continue going moving if they bring you on after the test. Yeah. I mean, you know, we, whenever we see a plant-based product at Costco, we always try to support it because it's really sad. I mean, they had stuff like really good things, kale chips, and then, you know, you're so excited. You buy a ton of it, but then they don't continue it. It's terrible, you know? So I know there's a lot of competition, but I wish you guys the best of luck in that. I do want to go over your website. Michael, if you could show some of the different varieties of jerky they have. And if you could just go through the different varieties you have, Matt. Yeah, for sure. So the original three were original Hawaiian teriyaki and sweet and spicy. And with this, we were looking at how to incorporate, you know, the Hawaii roots, which is obviously where I grew up and also being native Hawaiian and also incorporating, you know, traditional jerky flavors. So we felt we had a wide array of flavors from original like your classic onion, pepper, garlic flavors. And then teriyaki, which has your ginger, garlic, pineapple, and then sweet and spicy, which is, you know, sweetened with maple syrup and then a cayenne spice at the end. And then as we were thinking about new flavors, you know, we were thinking about one, what like flavors are big in Hawaii as well as what flavors are, you know, big in the US outside of Hawaii in the mainland. And Korean barbecue was like the first one that came to mind because it's very popular in Hawaii, but also like getting very popular on the mainland. And that's been our most popular flavor. It's a newer flavor. So we haven't launched it in Georgia. That's my favorite, yeah. Yeah, it's really good. It has that sesame. Teriyaki in that one, yeah, yeah. Yeah. The gochujang, it's really good. And then the Maui onion is, we recently launched that one a few months ago and just a small batch launch on our website and that sold out within the first week. So we're gonna make that a permanent flavor come like November, December. And then just two days ago, we launched our lemon pepper, which we had a lot of demand for like a pepper flavor. So we went the citrus route with lemon pepper and it's a good one. It's very distinct from the other flavors, but I feel like that's one that people are gonna absolutely love or they might not care for. It's gonna be one of the, yeah, I really like it, but I feel like you either like the lemon flavor or you don't. Yeah, yeah. Do you think you're going to ever get into other types of mushrooms or you think you'll stick with the king oysters? So the second product that we're launching is a stick. So if you go to a grocery store or a gas station, there's a lot of beef sticks, as well as like chicken sticks. Just like meat sticks are huge in the US and we found that there were no plant-based versions of it. So last year we started, we worked with a product developer on creating a stick that tasted like meat but had, and it had the same macros. So 10 grams of protein, low in sugar, all that. And that product will launch in early next year. And it's made, that one's made from wheat. It's made from wheat, potato, protein, mushrooms and coconut oil and spices and different flavoring. We couldn't get the mushrooms to be like the main ingredient, just the texture. We want it, the ultimate goal is to replace beef jerky or an option for people that are cutting back on red meat or meat in general. So wheat was our best option. Obviously like we would wanna be inclusive to all, people that have allergens, but overall we wanna hit the masses. We wanna be in convenient stores and gas stations around the country. So that's gonna be our next product. And we're also working on a bacon bits product, which is similar to our mushroom jerky, but it's cooked a little crispier and shredded into bits. So that one would be, we'd probably sell it in stores but it would be in restaurants, in salad bars, a topping on some of its mac and cheese pizza. No, that's wonderful. It's great that you guys are branching out and doing more products and you have so many ideas. I'm wondering in terms of the, I know you said your production plant was in Illinois and now it's in North Carolina. Does the product ship from there to all around the United States? Yeah, so we have our main facility that we contract manufacture from in Illinois. We've been working with them since we launched. And then with some of these other products that we're working on, we're working with a facility in North Carolina. So we have both of those. We're onboarding the second one. I'm not here in North Carolina right now, but the one in Illinois ships everywhere. So they also have like a fulfillment center attached to the facility. So once they make the jerky, then they can ship it off to our website customers. We ship it off to the Amazon fulfillment centers. In most of the grocery stores we work with, they have distributors. So we'll send bulk boxes to distributors who then distribute to grocery stores. So it's, yeah, it's that one center plant that kind of ships it all. Okay, that's cool. I mean, we're just wondering, because at first I didn't know, because it said you were from Hawaii. I thought maybe it shipped from Hawaii, but it didn't seem to ship from Hawaii. Yeah, I mean, I wish, I wish I could do everything from Hawaii, but the fact of the matter is the mushrooms we use don't grow in Hawaii. Yeah, I know. We're very strict about the kind of mushrooms they like work here too. Yeah, it's hard to also get manufacturing space in Hawaii too. Yeah, yeah, no. But I mean, that's wonderful that you're able to, I'm wondering, how about other countries? Are you guys doing other countries as well yet? Not yet. We've had a lot of interest in Canada, but most of Canada requires the bilingual packaging, both French and English. Oh, I didn't realize that would be an issue, yeah. Yeah, I mean, they're like, when we do the trade shows, there's always people from other countries that are interested, but we wanna just have a solid foundation here in the US first, and then once we're big enough, because also food margins are thin, and when you have to ship it overseas, your margins just get reduced even more. So I think once we're at a scale where our margins are better, then it'll make sense to ship overseas. Yeah, yeah. So are you learning this as long as you go along, or did you, I know you said you had a background in tech and finance, but it's really, I mean, you look really young, and I mean, it's a lot, it's a lot. Yeah, thank you for that compliment. No, I wasn't in the food space before. I was working at a software company, but the food world, it's not that complicated in terms of like understanding how it all works, but there's a lot of issues with the food, how food is distributed and like all the margins, like you really need to make the food for, you need to have high margins because there are so many people along the way that get a cut. So like to give you an example, when you make the product, you're paying the people to put it in boxes and it's called a kidding fee. So like, they make the product, they're throwing it in boxes, and every time they touch it, you're paying for that. So then once it's in the box, you ship it out to a distributor and then they take anywhere from 18 to 30% and then they ship it to a retailer who takes anywhere from 30 to 50%. But even before that, you typically have to work with a broker to get you into a retailer who takes 5%. So at the end of the, and then you have to, the retailers make you pay for promos. So you have to put your product on promotion. You have to pay for demoing the product. You have to pay for any returns. So at the end of the day, there's very little margin for the actual brands. And that's why so many brands have to raise capital early on or just like, they compromise on their ingredients and use very cheap ingredients, which compromises on the health. So finding the medium of having a product that's affordable and also healthy and delicious, like it's really tough. It takes a lot of time, but that's what we're striving to do. Yeah, no, I mean, it would be nice to cut out all the middlemen. Like, I guess if you get to scale a large scale, then can't you have your own distribution and your own, I don't know. Well, sort of. So to work with the whole foods and the food lands and all the grocery stores down to earth, you can't work directly. They all go through a distributor. But once you get to the Costco's and the Walmart's and the Target's, you work directly with them. They have their own distribution. So you cut out the distributor. So that's why, that's where all the brands make their money, but you can't just start in those stores because you need to build brand awareness and have a loyal following before they'll take you in. So it's one of those things where it just takes a long time to develop the brand. And it's basically like starts as a baby and it like grows up. Like it doesn't, it's very rare for a brand to explode overnight. Sometimes it may look like that from the outside, but they've been working three, four, five years before it gets to that point. Yeah. I mean, when you first started, did you start in San Francisco then, initially? Yeah. And I started, I thought, in my mind, I was like, if I can make a really good mushroom jerky, then I'll sell to Whole Foods and make a ton of money. But that's not how it works, like at all. Like you're, I don't want to scare anyone listening that wants to enter the industry because, you know, this shouldn't discourage you, but you have to, like you're losing money for the first couple of years because it's so expensive to play the game. You know, like a lot of these stores too, they charge you to get in. It's like you're almost paying for the merchandising space and then you have to do extremely well to even stay there. So in order to make a profit, like you have to be a couple of years in or have insane margins. Like if your margins are really good, you know, for beverages and protein powder and things like that, margins are better, but for food, margins are thin. So yeah, it's a tough game, but I've learned it all on the way, like, you know, just like making a ton of mistakes, learning from those mistakes, bringing on people who are smart that I can learn from, just kind of like every day, like failing and learning. No, that's great. I think you guys have a great product and I really hope you succeed. I mean, I've been ordering stuff from your website for I feel like a while now. I didn't realize you guys just started in 2018. So can we show his Instagram as well? Is that the best place to go or your website for, you know, suppose people want to sign up, get news about new flavors, deals, or you know, where you guys are going to be, where's the best place? Yeah, I would say follow us on Instagram, go to our website, sign up for a newsletter. You'll hear when we have, you know, deals or collaborations, new products, new flavors, and then also like, you know, we're on Amazon Prime as well. So if you want the fast shipping, we have all of our flavors on there. Oh no, Amazon Prime was great. I didn't know you guys were on there. What is the best thing so you guys, you know, make the most, I guess, if someone wanted to really support you to, you know, where you get the most profit, is it from your actual website? Yeah, it's from our website, but the most important channel for us right now is Whole Foods because we're in California and Hawaii, Anahu, I think we're in the Kahala one, but I don't know, it's been like a month or two since I've been home, but we're in the Ward one, we're in the Kailua one. So that's if you're local, that's probably the best place just because our review for the national rollout is December. So like our numbers now really matter, but if you're not buying Whole Foods, then like our website is the best place there. So Matt, I know that you are involved in contributing some money to nonprofits. Can you tell us about that? Absolutely, so we donate 1% of our revenue to four nonprofits that customers get to choose from at checkout on our website. The first one is Grow Good. They're an urban farm in Los Angeles, which does community events and helps feed, you know, local communities in need that don't have access to healthy food. We also donate to a nonprofit called Rewild Your Campus and they eliminate toxic herbicides from college campuses, high schools. They actually got the entire public school system in Hawaii to eliminate toxic herbicides. And then we also donate to two nonprofits in Hawaii. One of them is called WIPA on Kauai and they teach kids how to grow their own food. They also grow food for the community so people can come pick it up either for free or for discounted prices. They have an awesome organic farm there. And then we also donate to Aloha Harvest, which, you know, they take donated meals and give them out to families in need. That's great, thank you so much. Yeah, no, we wanted to have our roots in Hawaii and support some of the nonprofits doing awesome work there but also, you know, support other nonprofits that, you know, align with our mission and ethos. Now, I don't think that's great because a lot of people who don't have the means, they don't have access to healthy food. So it's good that, you know, your company is doing something for these people. Thank you so much. We're out of time, so we have to wrap it up. I'm Dr. Grayson Neal. This is Healthy Planet on the ThinkTech Live Showing Network series. We've been talking with Matt Feldman, founder of Mocha Foods. Thanks to Michael, our broadcast engineer and the rest of the crew at ThinkTech for hosting our show. And thanks to you, our listeners for listening. I'll see you in two weeks for more of Healthy Planet on ThinkTech, the show for people who care about their health and the health of our planet. My guest will be Brian Trupo, co-founder of Trupo Treats. We will be talking about vegan chocolate. If you have ideas for the show or questions for my future show this, please contact me at Healthy Planet ThinkTech gmail.com, check out my website at GraysonHawaii.com or Instagram at GracefulLiving365 for more information on my projects, including future show guests. I'm Dr. Grayson Neal. Aloha, everyone. Thank you so much for watching ThinkTech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please click the like and subscribe button on YouTube. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram and LinkedIn. Check out our website, ThinkTechHawaii.com. Mahalo.