 So I want to talk about two different groups of people. We here are vibing on Ethereum, right? We all go to the raves or we try to go to the raves and then make it in one piece. We like hack in the basement, like proud to be here in this conference and you know among friends again, like it's it's it feels very nice to be here surrounded by people. We love people that are vibing with us. There's another set of people that we discuss much less, which is people that are living on Ethereum, right? People who actually use Ethereum as a tool for their everyday life. And of course there's an overlap between the two, right? Like some people here probably get paid in crypto or in Ethereum or Ethereum stablecoins. Some people might spend some of that every month and yeah, that's that's one of the things that I wanted to like bring your attention to that the fact that there's two groups, there's an intersection middle, but in general, I think we or myself given that I've like dedicated my my time to explore this space because I care about financial inclusion and I care about the like good potential for this technology even myself, I haven't I feel like I haven't dedicated enough time to talk about the other group. So I'm gonna talk a little bit about what I've learned. At first that's like recognizing that like which which group would I be a part of? Like do I live in Ethereum or not? This was in 2018, two good friends, and I hacked on Ethmonosidus. That was my first Ethereum event ever. And again, like the vibe was great. This is where I got to meet the community. And we hacked on a project that was like non-financial, nothing related to to using Ethereum as money or stablecoins weren't even a thing back then. And it was it was great community. It was it was a good experience. And then coming from Venezuela, like I experienced high inflation. So this is like gives me another reason to vibe with the community, you know, like the values of having better money, giving people access to better money and all that. But the fact is I went to school in the United States and I have a bank account in the US and I'm part of that like group of financially privileged people that many many of us also are, right? I care about, you know, FDIC insurance. I care about like having stable savings in dollars. And I know that we are building services now that are approaching those levels or maybe even will beat those levels of resilience and and trust. But we're not quite there yet. So I mean, I use credit cards and I enjoy their convenience. So if I were to be completely honest, I'm part of this first group of like more vibing on Ethereum than than living on Ethereum. So I've tried to get closer to the other group by asking questions by seeking them out, especially, you know, people who were maybe not so much in the intersection because I'm sure here in this conference we can find people in the intersection. But people who maybe dislike Ethereum or maybe not even think about Ethereum much, people who wouldn't come to a conference because or to a to a Devin conference because Ethereum doesn't mean as much to them because they have other parts of their life that they value better. And that there's nothing wrong with that. I started working at BitRefill. It's a company that's been around since 2015. It focused on Bitcoin in the beginning, but now there's other coins and tokens that that we accept. And it's very convenient, for example, to refill a phone. So if you got your your cloud of SIM cards that you got in this conference, you can go online and top them up. And it's a lot of countries and this gives me the opportunity to talk to people who are not necessarily using Ethereum or Ethereum or services on Ethereum to because they vibe with the community. They're not part of the community, but because they it gives them a superpower that they didn't have before, which is it could be filling up a phone, could be other other services that we offer as well like buying gift cards. So you can offer offload your crypto that you have without necessarily going through a bank account and so on. So while it's nice to talk to the people in this conference and you feel like in your comfort zone, I think, yeah, like I've started to talk more to like customers to be refill in particular here. And I can't say that I've learned that much yet from them, but I have it like sparked my curiosity and and I think I have more questions than answering this talk. But I hope that you can also get questions from from my explorations so far. So I've got two archetypes here that I want to discuss. So the first one is George. He lives in the USA. He worked in oil and gas. And what he wants is to make money fast. And there may be some people here that also conceive Ethereum as an investment tool and as a as a way to invest smartly in protocols that will change the world and you know that you'll get rewarded for it. Nothing wrong with that. George in particular, remember, he doesn't care much about Ethereum. He wants to make money fast. It's like, who wouldn't like that, right? And he can use any means that he deems you know, moral, legal, convenient to attain that goal. So in 2019, maybe he was working as an Amazon reseller. So he used websites like these to like engaging activities like dropshipping or just like flipping products, identifying products that would sell for premium because he thought this would be a good way to make money fast. Fast forward to 2020, then he discovered eToro, right? You may be familiar with it. And then he started trading Forex, right? And he wasn't particularly interested in the financial world in the beginning, but he saw this as a way to make money fast and you know, it's evolved into this as like a as a side job, right? Then in 2021, he discovered Uniswap and suddenly he became an Ethereum user but not necessarily an Ethereum community member, right? Because remember, this guy doesn't really care much about Ethereum. He cares about making money fast. And now in 2022, of course, he's using Binance because you know, all of these options to earn money, you know, the vault, the investment, the staking, all of these new verbs that will be invented soon. It's so much, you know, like there's so many options here. So you could say that Binance kind of superseded Ethereum for this guy as the way to fulfill his goal, which is making money fast. Let's go to another case. Sylvia is a copywriter from Argentina and she wants access to a US dollar account because she doesn't trust her national currency much. You've heard this narrative many, many times. I'm sure you've probably met people from Argentina, from Cuba, from Venezuela, from other places where the situation is extremely bad. And I think we would all agree that the community values are that there's nothing wrong with wanting to have more financial stability in your life. So remember, she doesn't really care much about Ethereum. She's not part of the community. She doesn't vibe with us. You wouldn't go to the rates but she wants financial stability. So in 2019, she discovered Tether on Ethereum. Fees were pretty low, a 10 cents of a dollar. So maybe she got paid in that she had a wallet. Maybe it's MetaMask and she got paid using Tether and then she used Telegram groups to offload that into her Argentina bank account and just tried to preserve the the value of the dollar as much as possible before actually cashing it out to to the bank. And now there's better options for this, but in 2020 suddenly the fees were $15. And remember this and then what did Sylvia do? She just switched to Tron because again, Tether has been a tool that has been around for a while. You may have your opinions about it and as technologists may have some concerns or some fears about it and certainly the same with Tron. But guess what? It's a tool. She doesn't really care much about the technology. She doesn't care about the community. She cares about not spending $15 on every transaction that she makes. So of course she switched there. Then 2021, maybe the fee went up a little bit, but you know, she's still happy with Tron. And then again in 2022 she switched to using Binance because you know, Binance pays now ubiquitous. She can pay for anything. And if she ignores the casino part of Binance that doesn't really interest her, Binance is a crypto bank and nowadays they're people building crypto banks that have maybe more aligned goals with us than Binance where you know, maybe it's not so driven towards participating in money-making activities just like the first guy, the George, but just to preserve the value like more like your typical bank account experience. So and then it's also convenient because she doesn't no longer has to use her telegram groups. She can just go on a peer-to-pea marketplace of Binance and she can find an offer really fast and it's also like it's very cheap. The fees for this services are cheap and to receive or send UCT within Binance users is free. So again convenience wins in this case. So after that in 2022, what may happen? Maybe she will convert from Tether to BUSC. It's because you know, maybe Binance will provide further incentives to use BUSC. So what about, you know, why doesn't she use as technologies and as part of this community? We may ask ourselves, why doesn't Sylvia use optimism, arbitrum, like as you guys think, why doesn't why isn't she on die? Like it is we would like her to be on like part of better aligned more credibly neutral systems and the systems that have her well-being more in the core values because what can happen if the Tron network goes on and Sylvia loses her money or you know there's there's many risks with other like with using other tools that have not been built with you know, the same care perhaps that Ethereum or the some of the tools of Ethereum at least have been built. So we would like to kind of push these tools to her but we haven't done a great job at marketing them. We haven't done a great job at making them accessible in the markets where they are needed most, right? So she'll probably gravitate towards Binance, right? So I think this is just again like strikes a question that I've had for many years and I think I still haven't resulted yet. So who is Ethereum for? And who like whom should we prioritize and how how should we measure our success? Is TVL for example a good way to measure Ethereum's success? Or is adoption in peer-to-peer markets a better way to do that? So maybe I want to open it up. I know like this this this talk is a short on purpose because I actually want to hear more from you and your experience and and maybe complement the two examples that we just showed here. If anyone here gets paid in crypto and it's comfortable like sharing an experience and I can I'm happy to go first. I've been paid in USDC sometimes and my experience has been that because I studied in the US I can cash out USDC one-to-one for US dollars in a bank account, which is what I ultimately want because I like that stability, right? Even though, you know, there's huge inflation whatever, it's it's it's still a means for me to preserve my my savings, that's way better than first for example keeping the money in Colombian pesos or keeping the money in Venezuelan Bolivars, obviously, right? So I I use that tool to be able to to cash out with like no fees like I think I'm bothered by it by having even, you know, like a ten dollar or fifteen dollar fee because I mean I want my salary whole, right? So maybe that's something that is again very privileged because I have access to two things like Coinbase and so on, but maybe someone like Sylvia that actually prefers USDT because it's more liquid in her local market has a different experience. So if anyone here has an experience of being paid in crypto, I'd like to hear from you. What what do you use? Like what or what product have you been surprised by the experience, be it good or bad? and Yeah, what what can you share from that if if anything? So maybe I think there's gonna be a couple of volunteers here with mics And if anyone raises their hand, I will just call someone randomly over there Hello. Yes I'm here in the back sir. You can't see me. Yes, I see you. Okay, great. So my name is Mel I get paid in USDC and in ETH and in our company's token and I use a Visa debit card called Monolith to do all of my Payments so indeed to solve like the problem of how do you actually live on Ethereum? Like tool, you know, like tools that tie back into the real world very easily are needed Yeah Okay, that's cool Do you have any concerns with the Visa card at all or does it work smoothly for you always? So it does work very smoothly, but indeed Because it's a non custodial wallet. You have to actually send Any third? Well, you do an Ethereum transaction when you top up the card and so there are gas costs Which for myself is fine, but for a you know, a hundred million user base You know people user base that might not quite work and so Your point in your presentation. I totally understand how you know, we here in this crowd are very idealistic but You know normal people or ordinary people they just care about ease of use and less fees And getting the job done rather than these idealistic concerns And have you used other chains or than Ethereum or have you considered using other other stuff or or maybe even, you know You you're using a custodial service So it's another ledger that they have as well. So you're you're using more than just Ethereum And that's that's fine But I think it's it's worth also highlighting that Ethereum doesn't stand on its own or at least it doesn't and we would like it to be like a full suite service, but it's not yet Right. Yeah, it's gonna take a lot more work from people in this room to realize that we should be building for the general public And not for ourselves really in the long run. Otherwise, you know companies like Tron and Binance They're gonna eat our lunch, right and we're gonna be sitting here Was the whole like the whole world moves us by yeah I think I've actually been surprised by the fact that Tron is under discussed in in in conferences like this like it's Not good to focus on a competitor only, right? But it's something that like many people aren't even aware that it's eating our lunch and it is and Yeah, I just think some more people should be aware of it And we should again have the right metrics in place because I I had a really tough time Looking on like Dune dashboards and DeFi Lama and places like this to actually find the information That was more towards, you know, like users and and how many people were actually using these things rather than, you know TVL and Other metrics that I don't particularly care much about so yeah I think Like our goal here should be to improve the world and to take civilization along with us and I love your talk because you're kind of giving us a reality check. So well done. Thank you. Thank you. Thank I Have another question then Anyone here use the script to cover expenses you already covered that and you use your visa card anyone has like a different experience Doing that here Yes, yes here here Okay, I see you. Yes. Thank you for your presentation I think it's like here in Latin America We face a really huge problem when we want to make the off-ramp from our crypto Let's say I I also received my payment from my salary in in USD in USD And also another in tokens So let's say like this in the part that I received from you this year I just save in my custodial the wallet and The other like in my non-custodial wallet Because at the end of the day the one that is in the non the custodial wallet I use for like day-by-day cash and pay my stuff Here would you mind sharing what what service that is yes here in Latin America is like a wallet Which is named BIO? Which make here in Colombia the the the off-ramp of a peso Colombiano So I use that But yes, like that is one of the biggest concern regarding how we make the the off-ramp of my money Because there is not so easy Channels for withdraw my money and let's let's be clear in Latin America how everything move is by cash I We will be there in some years, but nowadays we need cash and and that's how I solve like everything my expenses here So if you had one request for people building systems like these or if you were yourself Like I had the resources and and and wanted to build something like that Like what what is the biggest problem that you face yourself that? Like when when you're trying to off-ramp the crypto that you've been paid You know you use that crypto to cover expenses. Exactly. What would you say? I think one of the biggest concern is easy access to these Alternatives that are already linked with traditional players because at the end the off-ramp should be or They have they must be Link to traditional financial system So I think that is like the big concerns for the future. It's like how at the end the next wallets the net Solutions that help us this are already linked to the traditional system to a traditional financial system Because they these are the ones that will give us the chance for Spread the use case of crypto Yeah, thanks. I think we've dreamed for a long time of it's like adoption like merchants and like the circular economy and Let me refill we're trying to make that happen by Listing private businesses on our site where you can like buy Amazon cards. You can buy Uber you can you know pay of even your credit card in the US now it's a new service that we have and And then you can pay it with crypto. Of course, we're still intermediary But it it gets us one step of the way To actually making this crypto easier to use Swan one more person there. Thank you Well, I want to just to cover our experiences with pizza because I'm from Mexico. We got very lucky. We got the Universal basic income through proof of humanity. So to cash it out for my mother-in-law We used big so so we had to transfer we had to swap the UBI token in a stable coin then we send it to be so and My mother sorry, sorry, which they wasn't I think it was in usdc and then it was swapped for Mexican pesos and cashed out in Mexican bank account, but the experience in pizza is very simple and my mother-in-law could do it alone So that was the positive part and she manages to cover some of her expenses through Well through the universal basic income she gets so yeah Thanks for sharing And what about the fees where we're satisfied with what you were charged or do you think Like because I think we want everyone to have kind of the same level of access, right? And it's very difficult to maybe have Like on on Coinbase again in the US you can swap usdc for dollars one to one There's no fees right because they want to promote that And I would like everyone to have that kind of American privilege if you will but it seems harder to do in Latin America I don't know how your experience was like there Yeah, I think the fee was bearable like I don't remember it being anything overwhelming the biggest fee was transferring Swapping the you and the universal basic income token in a stable coin because it's on main net But we did it through cow swap and they have some gasless swap. So well there are perks, you know, but it so doesn't have Fees that are that big. Yeah, well, I think we may have time for maybe one more person Can we get a mic over here One more question You got like a minute Really quick It's pretty funny. You just pretty much the first guy you describe was me. I'm a patrol engineer They found a different way to find a there we go commerce work and eventually got into crypto So that's pretty funny. But besides that, I think they are there is a huge difference in type of markets There's people that want to invest and there's people that want to just use right? Yeah And that's one of the things that I love you you talk about because there's a huge Desconation at least in in South America and how can we do what you're saying? I'm also American so I can have the purpose of be able to just you exchange in the US Then South America is so difficult and I don't know why in this at least in this. I was hoping to find The answer here. Yeah, but I could not find anything I've been pretty much ready to build a talk and I have not in In I know that everybody's trying to build the next ecosystem But I think that we have to start from like you were saying Understanding what the real people want to do and like right now in South America There's a huge need for this technology to the centralized many things But the financial is for sure one of the biggest one and I think they I mean if I can if somebody here There's developing so many tools at least try to think about to create this ecosystem and be able to make it easy for Yeah, yeah, and the way I was doing it before was just like trying to identify people who really need it like Venezuela's Argentinians They're regular people But that I think is a lot harder than finding people who are already using it But not for the reasons you think and they they're not vibing with us again Like they're not part of this but they're still using it So like try to get the jobs to be done from from that perspective and for sure in another thing I think I know sometimes some people see marketing as like the devil bad But I think it's so much need of like people to know what it is You know how many times I talk to people and I say I do cryptos and they seem like the devil Yeah, it's because they don't understand it. They don't know what it is and like well, that is fake It's not so thank you All right, that's some thank you