 Welcome to the 21 Report. I'm Frank Pesci, with acclaimed American author, philosopher of men known for his cross-cultural ethos of masculinity. Jack Donovan. Jack, how are you? I'm all right, man. Man, I'm sorry I had to read that. I am familiar with your work. I have seen you speak. And I just want to make sure that I communicate that the way it needs to be communicated. Yeah. So hopefully it comes across in this interview about the level of respect that I have for you and the men here have for you. Cool. How are you enjoying the event so far? Oh, it's going great. I mean, I've been here since, like, 2017. So I've done quite a few of these. So I, like, there's volunteers here who I've known for, like, four years. So, you know, it's nice to connect with everybody again. It's almost like a system of checking in on each other. It's a brotherhood, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, definitely a good network event, you know, one of many overlapping networks of groups of men. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you obviously gave some speeches here. Yeah. They were exciting. You want to talk a little bit about that? Oh, yeah. I really, for this conference, I really just wanted to review the way of men because I've actually never talked about the way of men specifically for the 21 convention. And I wanted to go over the basic concepts of my gang theory of masculinity because I think it's one of my biggest contributions to the field of really masculinity studies. And that's kind of what I talked about in the presentation was that all these people who are experts in masculinity are people who really hate masculinity and all the university experts and the people writing books about it and so forth. And I set out many years ago to write a book, you know, what is masculinity and kind of trying to answer what that question is. And that was what the way of men was. And I think I did a pretty good job and it's, you know, been around for a really long time. I put out the 10th year anniversary hardcover, you know, this year. Hardcover, nice. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, so I could do a new afterward and explain what's happened over the last, you know, 10 years. And, you know, I think that that's it's been really foundational for a lot of people. And I think it's influenced a lot of the people who are influencing men now. It's just been a kind of foundational book for a lot of people. Jack, you've had a really unique background. In the time that I've followed your work, I have known you to build an intentional community, live on large swaths of land, move to different places in the country to engage in different types of work and carry on new work. What are the ethos that drive you? And what are the kind of men that are attracted to the work that you're doing? Well, all kinds of men are interested because I'm talking about masculinity in a way that theoretically should be accessible to all men. And one thing I wanted to say in my speech that I didn't say was that the way of men is meant to be for everyone, you know, even if you don't like me, basically, is that it's meant to be for all different... I understand a masculinity that could make sense to men of all different tribes at any time throughout history. So, yeah, it's for everyone. So, it was important to me to come up with that kind of unifying theory of masculinity and put it out there so that people had something... Because I found out when people would be asked what masculinity is, they couldn't answer it in a really coherent way. And then you have all these academics who have their version, which is wrong, but it's their version. And their version sounds intelligent where you have a bunch of guys who can't answer a question. And so I thought it was really important to put that information out there and influence a lot of people that way. So, I've been an advocate for a long time of just understanding what masculinity actually is and kind of recapturing that heroic masculinity that we had in the epics and the sagas and so forth. And making sure that that history and that heritage isn't lost. Jack, you're obviously somebody who has embraced imagery. You have tattoos. Anytime I see you streaming online, I see the work that you're doing. Imagery plays a huge part in who you are as a character. And it's evident that imagery either communicates to you or you communicate through it. How important is it for a man to have congruent imagery in his life and how does it affect the way that they act and behave? Well, all imagery is communication. So, the way that you dress, the way that you look, the things that you surround yourself with, they all send a message. And as Tanner Guzzi, who's not here but he's often spoken at the 21 convention, we get along because we agree on the idea that even if you say you don't care about any of those things, that still sends a message. So, I think there's this idea that men aren't supposed to care about things like that. But I gave a speech earlier this year at a different event talking about the fact that actually when you look at art and culture throughout history, men made all of that. Men made most of the art that's ever been made. So, the idea that men don't make art or shouldn't care about it or shouldn't care about aesthetics just is historically incorrect. This is what we've always done. So, it's just really, I think I would love to see American men because I think American men, you know, because there's kind of this kind of puritanical influence in America and part of our background. So, you either go, you know, kind of wild west burlesque where you go this kind of puritanical route in America. And I think that we don't have as much of the richness of the art around us that the Europeans have. And I think it's important that kind of James Bond ideal that you can wear a tuxedo and go to the opera and also be a badass. All these things are part of masculinity. And so, I think it's really important for men to embrace that side of what they do as well. And it's not a feminine side. It is, creation is a masculine enterprise. Corregeneration, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. How would the art that you're attracted to, what genre is that? How is that classified? I mean, I have a very distinct, I mean, I went to art school originally. So over this, over my lifetime, I've kind of developed a very distinct aesthetic. I think that people who know me and follow my stuff, like that looks like a Jack Donovan thing or that Jack Donovan would like that. I always laugh and I call it like Flintstones Futurism. I like things that feel primal, but also futuristic at the same time, which kind of overlaps with a lot of the aesthetics from like maybe the early 1960s. And modernism and like mid-century modernism and a little bit of brutalism and things like that. So this kind of playfully bone-like structures, but also that are futuristic as well. That's interesting. Your ethos, who you are, what personifies you are reflected in who you are as a person. You're obviously in great shape. You have good skin tone. You have tattoos. You have the beard. You have the beard. You curate yourself in a way that makes people see that you believe in the things that you preach. You practice what you preach. Absolutely. So that is to say that your ethos produce a specimen like we're looking at here. Yeah. I mean, I try to bring what's on the inside on the outside. I mean, that's really what we should be trying to do. Make all these things congruent. So as I got more into certain things, it's like, well, I really wanted the zoo spirit, because that made sense with my whole thing. And it's like everything that I've curated has a specific look to it. And yeah, it's because how does this communicate my message? And I think there was a mistake that was made for a long time with men that if I just write down the right arguments, then I will change people's opinions. But people make emotional decisions. And they want to also tap into their unconscious as well. And so you want to actually capture all that. And I also tell everybody that if you actually have a message in the 21st century, you're competing with Hollywood in that messaging. So you have to be able to represent your ideas in the same kind of way with the same kind of quality and forethought. It's evident to me that you're a man of discipline. You've developed habits of excellence in order to produce the work that you produce. You obviously spend time in the gym. You probably eat right. What are some of the habits of excellence that men who follow your work need to know if they're looking for similar results? Oh, you just have to decide exactly what you want. I mean, your goals change all the time. Like I've spent the last year kind of focused on bodybuilding. And now I'm going to try and focus on Jiu Jitsu and a little bit more than the bodybuilding in this year. And so, yeah, you just have to decide what your actual goals are and then to line yourself in a way that you can accomplish those goals. I think a lot of people just spin their wheels. So how do you yourself differentiate seasons of life? Some people might say, well, it's January 1st, 2023. This year I'm doing this. But in my life, I can speak for myself. I'll have multiple seasons in one year where I have a targeted approach or focus towards something that I'm looking to improve or accomplish. How does Jack Donovan do that? Something will run its course. Or honestly, with physical training and things like that, it might be an injury. You get injured in one thing or you're like, OK, well, I've been running on a low-fat diet for way too long. It's probably not good for me anymore. I probably need to shift to something else. Or I've let this area lag for too long. And then you get a sense. I'm like, well, I need to pick this up now. And also, by the opportunities that present themselves in life, because that changes everything. You get an opportunity in front of you. And then whatever your plans might have been, they have to change because you have a new opportunity. You have to be flexible. Yeah. OK, I like that. All right, so this is my third year at 21 as an attendee. And I have seen some returning faces. I've seen some new faces. But I noticed that you have an audience that's drawn to you every year. I always see you busy talking with people, people asking you to sign their books and so on and so forth. What is it like for you to meet your fans, who follow you on social media, consume your content, have read your books, have obviously and evidently, you have had an impact on their life. And here you are at a live event having the opportunity to interface with them. What is that like? Well, I mean, it's my job. It's my job, really. So people always, when I get recognized in public and sometimes that happens, you know, maybe in Arizona it happens more than it was in other places that I've lived. People always think that they're going to bug you. And I guess there's a level of being famous where it bug, you know, OK, I need to get stuff done now. But for me, I'm like, you just made my day. If someone comes up in the public and like they say, hey, I really love your work, that makes my day. I mean, because I care about what I do and oh, you responded to it, you really liked it. We don't have to necessarily best friends after that. But like that that's really important to me that you share that with me. And so from a conference like this and someone comes up to me like, hey, you really changed my life. Or this thing that you said was really important to me and it made me help me make a positive change in my life. I mean, I think you kind of have to be a jerk to not like that, to not be happy that you had that effect on somebody. And, you know, when people always are all equally nervous about saying that they want to get a book signed, they're like, oh, you're like a fanboy or whatever. And I'm like, this is my job. Like if I, that I get to sign my books is a privilege. I'm excited that anyone cares. When they stop asking me that'll be a bad day, you know. So I can say from my perspective as an attendee, it's evident. I see you're charitable, you're generous. I see you talking with people, willing to spend time with them. I see a very human Jack Donovan. You're laughing, you're giving the attendee an opportunity to really interface with you and have a level of access they would not otherwise have. Right. Because life is busy and just has us on our paths. Yeah. So what I think people want to know, who are not here perhaps, is what does a day in your life look like? Far too boring for most people. You know, obviously I go to the gym a lot. And that's kind of the primary part of my day. And then, you know, whatever I'm doing to the gym and then whatever business I have to do. And it's like I have a life, kind of joke in my household that I have a life of projects. So it's whatever project that I happen to be working on. You know, so if I was writing a book, then that's what I'm doing every day. If right now I'm working on starting an organization and so I'm actually, you know, I have a telegram chat full of a whole bunch of guys who I really like or some of them are my oldest like readers who have been around forever and forever and I really like them. I were friends. I've tattooed some of those guys. And then, you know, there's also brand new guys. There's a level of respect, by the way. So I'm going to let you tattoo them, right? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's huge. That's a cool thing about my work because it's so symbolic. And there's so much symbolism involved is that a lot of guys get tattoos of symbols that I created on their bodies, which is kind of humbling and awesome. And people have actually gotten the cover of the Way of Men tattooed on their arms and legs and stuff. So that's pretty awesome. But yeah, so I'm working on whatever project this group that I'm starting right now, I'm talking to all those guys all the time because I'm trying to get them invested in what we're doing and moving forward and that's really exciting. You've been known to preach tribe. Have the elements of tribe changed in recent years given, I don't know, the way that propaganda works today, the digitization of society and humanity, the devaluing of the human experience, or is it still primal, the way that it's always been? Well, I think, you know, we still need human connections and there's going to be a push because, okay, there's this world that everything went to Zoom meetings and people don't go to work anymore. I bought the stock, bro. Yeah. Like everyone went to Zoom meetings, everybody is having connections distant and for some people that's going to be, that becomes their only interface with other people. But for other people, they're going to hear them for something else and that's going to be, create a big pushback to like, I need to go to an event or I need to go meet people or I need to go out and actually interact with my friends in real life because all I get is, you know, I work on the Zoom and I deal with these conferences and stuff all the time and I need to actually meet people in real life and then it kind of makes the human experience more valuable in a way because it becomes a little bit more precious. So I think that we all need that experience so going out to find people who have the same values and so forth, the internet gives us a gift of being able to find, you know, any weirdos who are the same can find each other anywhere around the world, right? And so any people who share your values, whatever they may be, you can find them and connect. And, you know, I had like one of the guys from my group that I've been working on, The Order of Fire, you know, he just joined a few weeks ago but he's in Florida so he just drove two and a half hours up to meet me while I was at the conference and we went out and caught a lift together and now it's like that, when I post that picture to our group I'm always like, the internet is real because you have to make it real and actually go into real life and meet those people and build those actual connections. The opportunity to run with Jack Donovan as I read your work and study your material, it seems like you have a pretty exclusive group of people that want to be around you. However, I also hear that your voice echoes to the larger audience. What is your message to everybody? Really just that... It's always like, what is the big message, right? I should refine the generation at large. Yeah, the generation, I mean, basically the, you know, masculinity is, you know, not toxic or it just is what it is and that it's part of us and that it's part of men and they need to find ways to exercise that part of their primal instinct because it's part of who they are and it makes them healthier. And, you know, it's like when you see a guy who takes martial arts for the first time and has that experience, a lot of times they're like puppies wagging their tails. They're finally doing the thing that they were meant to do and they're having that interaction with other men that they desperately need. And so, you know, one of my big messages is just that like, you know, the differentiation between like go out and find a girl, get married and hide in a little cave versus I think that men always need to be connected to other groups of men. And so that's kind of a main, I think, thesis of my work is that, you know, the way of men is the way of the gang and that we need to connect with other men and have that competitive spirit. That's why like, you know, everybody who does it then becomes like this weird preacher for it. It's like CrossFit, but like, you know, Jiu Jitsu is a thing that like, you know, once people do it, it's like, okay, they have a bunch of guys that they're good, you know, they get to try to kill each other for like five minutes and then, you know, they'll have hands and laugh about it. And it's a really, really just healthy kind of competitive environment that anyone can do. And I know a guy actually at my gym who doesn't have hands and he will choke you out. I mean, a lot of people have made amazing adaptations. It's just really impressive and, you know, it's so good for people. So I think that, you know, for guys to get involved in things like that is so priceless for them. So what is it that's inside of us as men that makes us want to be evangelists for the things that we're passionate about? Well, men are romantic creatures. I think that, yeah, we call women romantic, but really, I mean, actually the etymology of romance, I mean, it's like a book and it used to be a book about men's adventures. You know, adventures of horse-bound knights. Well, that's where chivalry comes from as well. And so, you know, men are very adventurous and very idealistic and men are creatures who will die for an idea. And that is not a female thing. Women will die for their children and men will die for a beautiful idea. And that's part of this heroic part of the masculine spirit. And so that is part of it. Theumatic energy that we want to go fight for something and get it out there because we feel very passionate about it and we feel motivated by justice, by justice, you know, and we want to see justice done in the world. What's your favorite movie? Home. I'll just say my favorite movie right now, my favorite current movie is I've rewatched Dune a lot. Which one? Dune. But obviously I was heavily influenced by Fight Club. My work was, I think, I was working in public relations in San Francisco and I went and saw Fight Club like I think seven times in the theater when it came out and then I quit my job and became a waiter. And then it started kind of a path of doing a whole bunch of other things that eventually led up to where we are now and then it was a really surreal moment many years ago when Chuck Palinac reached out to me and he wanted to interview me for a project that he was working on. And so then Chuck Palinac came to my tattoo shop and actually sat down and interviewed me which is such a weird, surreal moment of like, okay, I feel like I came out of your head. You know, like I kind of became Tyler Durden in this weird way and then, you know, to get to meet that guy was really, really just a surreal experience. And then we went out to dinner one more time and hung out and whatever. And it was just a cool full circle for me to meet somebody like that. What's interesting about the 21 Summit is that you have three separate events all under one umbrella. You have the Patriarch Edition which is for fathers or men who are aspiring to be fathers. You have the 21 Convention which is, you know, really the founding room of this whole thing. And then you have the 22 Convention which is for women. How important do you think it is to attend the 21 Summit? It's just, you know, anyone who's interested in this specific, you know, so much talk about masculinity now. There wasn't maybe 10 years ago and that's one of the things I talked about in my speech. Like, this is really blown up. But, you know, if you really find one of the speakers engaging, you know, if you really find, you know, several of the speakers engaging, I think it's definitely worth coming out and getting to meet them and see them in real life and connect with them a little bit. That's definitely important. Yeah, and I think it's important and it's noteworthy that not only do we get to sit in and listen to speakers and learn from each other and chop it up in the lobbies and have a great time, but we really take advantage to spend time together as a group, you know, from sun up to sun down almost. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, I hide my room before I have to speak because, you know, I don't want to have brain fog but for being up too late and whatever. But, like, after my speech was done yesterday, I mean, we were all out, you know, smoking cigars and hanging out with the boys outside until, like, probably 4 a.m., I think. And that's kind of a ritual thing that has happened. I mean, I've been out there a bunch of years until 4 a.m. and I laughed at one point, like, Elliot Hulse and Anthony and all those people were all out there at the same time, and I did actually an little Instagram story and did a thing, and I'm like, this is actually the real 21 convention. So, you know, that is a really cool way for people to connect with all these guys. Outstanding. Where can people find you? I'm mostly on Instagram at Start the World. I'm more recently on Twitter at ph2t3r because my name was taken already. I jumped on there when Elon Musk said he was going to buy it, and I was like, alright, I'll give it a try. There you go. And then, you know, I have a YouTube channel and my website is jackdashdonovan.com. Fantastic. That for the 21 Report. I'm Frank Pesci with Jack Donovan. Thanks for watching. Cool.