 You've faced questions today on a very, very raw subject that has never been an interview like this before. This interview has been exceptionally rare. You might not speak on this subject again. Is there anything you feel has been left unsaid that you would like to say now? I'm Scott Rouse, my body language expert and analyst. I train law enforcement, the military, and interrogation in body language. Hi there, I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I currently am a former Army interrogator and interrogation resistance instructor. Hi, I'm Chase Hughes. I retire from the U.S. military and now develop programs and teach interrogation behavior profiling. Better. Well, today we're going to be talking about Prince Andrew and his body language during his interview. As we go through this, remember, we call him like we see him. We're not leading to one side politically or the other side. If we're from one country or another country, we're not going to lead toward either side. We call him like we see him. So that's what's going on. So let's start off with the first question. See you today. As you say, all of this goes back to your friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. How did you first become friends? How did you meet? Well, I met through his girlfriend back in 1999, and I'd known her since she was at university in the UK. And it would be to some extent a stretch to say that, as it were, we were close friends. We were friends because of other people. And I had a lot of opportunity to go to the United States, but I didn't have much time with him. I suppose I saw him once or twice a year, perhaps maybe maximum of three times a year. And quite often, if I was in the United States and doing things, and if he wasn't there, he would say, well, why don't you come and use my houses? So I said, that's very kind. Thank you very much indeed. But it would be a considerable stretch to say that he was a very, very close friend. But he had the most extraordinary ability to bring extraordinary people together. And that's the bit that I remember is going to the dinner parties where you would meet academics, politicians, people from the United Nations. I mean, it was a cosmopolitan group of what I would describe as US eminence. All right, so who wants to go first? Greg? Yes, I'll jump on two things, and then it may bleed into three. Number one, it would be a stretch to characterize us as close friends evolves to it would be a considerable stretch to characterize us as very, very close friends. That's an interesting distancing from the situation. Number one, here's one of those and Chase will both be on this one from different angles. This is one of those points where he's nodding very rapidly. Yes, about being a friend and then suddenly preparing because he knows what's coming, pushing his tongue out of his mouth. And this is not a grooming move as much, you know, cleaning your mouth is almost distasteful, pushing his tongue out. Of course, his routine is a little bit of that. But watching from here that first start and you'll see as he progresses through this fight or flights when you start hitting him and you'll get mucosal fatigue and all that. We'll talk about it as it shows up. But those two things are my first two. Chase, what do you got? There's a lot here. So just focus on a couple of things. We have this lip compression, the moment that the person's name is memorized. They're mentioned. We see the lip squeezed together, which typically means withheld opinions or something's kind of being withheld. And we're also getting a little bit of a baseline here because we're starting out the video and, you know, Greg talks a lot about baseline. So we're looking, he's accessing a genuine memory and he looks over to his left. So we're kind of just starting to get this little baseline behavior. And when he says United States, he's using this hand, he's gesturing that direction when he's going to America. So these are important little things to pay attention to for the rest of the interview. And one thing you'll notice when you have an HD video, it's really, really cool. The artery underneath the knee causes the foot to bounce with the heartbeat. So what we'll do, I'll throw it in the comments here. I'll throw his heartbeat throughout the entire interview, which I've spent time calculating in the comments of the video. Chase, it's a beautiful thing because I've been watching it in the entire video, myself watching his pulse rate. It's a beautiful thing. That's what I was waiting for today and I was going to goose it with that. I wonder which handler let him sit that way in full camera view. Like, Mark, your people are letting you. Yeah, well, let me tell you about this. His handlers have abandoned him at this point. And here's how I think we can tell that. Just look at his tie. His tie is a skew. A handler would have never have let that go. So let's look at the bigger context that we have here. We're in the Royal Palace. That's not his house. That's his mother's house. It's the seat of the Crown of England. It's a place of high authority where he's trying to get extreme compliance from this interviewer. And he's trying to do it by striking awe. As you walk into that room, you just need to look at the China collection at the back. You've got priceless paintings all around you. He's basically saying you will comply because look at the authority that rests here. Maitlis, to counter this, has shown up in a military style jacket. Knowing, I think, so there are no accidents here. There are conscious and unconscious choices. She's shown up in a military jacket hoping for some compliance around that, that he'll see the braids, he'll see the military style. And although he's a vice admiral himself, there will be an element of compliance to that idea of military and rank signals, essentially. Though, of course, we don't expect that he thinks she holds any rank. However, in the UK, she would be one of the top interviewers in hard news. So she's a strong contender here. So I just want to lay that out and just, you know, let you know, I think he's been abandoned at this point. He's on his own because handlers would have come in and they'd have adjusted that time. I just want to make two other points about this. Greg, the stretch, we actually see him do a descriptor of that stretch. And he doesn't make it a huge stretch. He makes it a little bit of a stretch. But later on in the interview, we're going to see him do a stretch again and we're going to see his hands clasped together and he won't describe a stretch. So it's a good chance for a baseline on that. And I just want to put one more thing down. He says, that's the bit that I remember and that stresses on I. And I think at this point, to your point at the start, Scott, he's just laid down his complete strategy, which is I remember this and I'm not going to remember other stuff. So he's already gone. Here's my strategy. I'm going to forget stuff. Yeah. And I think that's the way it's laid out. You can tell he's been hanging with some high-end lawyers because that's the perfect setup for that whole thing. Right out of the gate, he says, when she says, you know, how did John meet her? He says, I met. He doesn't say I met him. He doesn't say we met. He says, I met. And that distances him from word one, from the right out of the gate, I met at. And then he just got us done. We're talking about that foot sticking out as well. And it's really important, not just for the heartbeat, but he's using it as a barrier as well. So I'll be pointing those out as we go through because as he gets to some points, you know, dank as he tries to subconscious psychologically block what's coming at him. And these angles they've done this are perfect. And they're not just honing it on her like we saw in the Megan Kelly thing. It's not about Megan Kelly. It's not about this interview. It's about the interviewee. So this is going to be a great learning exercise for the person that wants to learn about body language. All of this goes back to your friendship with Jeffrey Epstein. How did you first become friends? How did you meet? Well, I met through his girlfriend back in 1999 and I'd known her since she was at university in the UK. And it would be to some extent a stretch to say that as it were, we were close friends. We were friends because of other people. And I had a lot of opportunity to go to the United States. But I didn't have much time with him. I suppose I saw him once or twice a year, perhaps maybe maximum of three times a year. And quite often if I was in the United States and doing things, and if he wasn't there, he would say, well, why don't you come and use my houses? So I said, that's very kind. Thank you very much indeed. But it would be a considerable stretch to say that he was a very, very close friend. But he had the most extraordinary ability to bring extraordinary people together. And that's the bit that I remember is going to the dinner parties where you would meet academics, politicians, people from the United Nations. It was a cosmopolitan group of what I would describe as US eminence. Go to the next one. It was a cosmopolitan group of what I would describe as US eminence. Was that his appeal then? Was that what you... Because you were perceived by the public as being the party prince. Was that something you shared? That's also a bit of a stretch. I don't know why I've collected that title because I never have really parted. I was single for quite a long time in the early 80s. But then after I got married, I was very happy. And I've never really felt the need to go and party. And certainly going to... Jeffrey's was not about partying. Absolutely not. All right. Well, here's what I'm seeing right out of the gate on that one. When he shakes his head no while he's saying yes. That's right there, the first question. And then he says, I've never felt the need to party. And you see the classic half shrug that goes into that. Again, about his foot. It's not about partying. That's when his foot goes up for the first time. We see that blockage go up. Then you see we see his limbic system kicking in because he's starting to dawn on him. He's starting to feel just a little bit of heat at that point. His nostrils flare a little bit. And his eyes closed. His eyes closed all the way actually. And when he's finished giving this statement, you can, as he's doing this, he's rubbing his fingers like in the fashion of, okay, there's one down of accomplishment in other words, when you see that. So he gives that a sigh of relief as he's going through. Ah, got through that one. That went well. And Chase, you're right. When he's looking over to our right, that's when he's recalling what he's heard. Now, you know my feelings on eye accessing, you can correct you. But you know, what are you going to do? That's where he's going for remembering things anyway. That's where his eyes head. So what do you see, Mark? Yeah, so nice baseline there on that was his appeal. Yeah. So he does an upward inflection on that. I think he's jumping there on this gift of compliance. Yeah. And we're going to see this later on. And I think what we're going to see is the interviewer cleverly use that signal of, I just won to then move in for the attack. Because she knows at this point, she's got him optimistic about this. So that was his appeal. Yeah. And up his voice goes and he jumps on this gift. He's got to complain to that point. Now we see at this point that second, that's a bit of a stretch. But instead of doing the descriptor, he's now clasped together. My guess would be is that means that it's a different, it's a different stretch from the first stretch. In fact, it's not a stretch. Else he would have described it, I believe, in some way. We see his blink rate go up. And I'm sure Chase will talk about that. I think we hear the name of Jeffrey used. Just Jeffrey, not Epstein, Jeffrey. And the tonality of it seems to feel quite friendly. Yeah. So let me leave it. Let me leave it that. Okay. Chase, where do you get? We see a lot in this. We're going to see a lot in all these. Yeah. But we got a really good baseline here about how he has truthful conversations. He's talking about when he was younger and when he was married. He makes about 50% eye contact. So when we're talking to a person, anytime we talk to a person, we ask them a few questions that are general, they have no reason to lie to. And we see that when he's being truthful, he looks off to the side and he makes less eye contact. So he tends to make a ton, like 100% just about of eye contact when he's trying to be a little bit deceptive. We also have another thing here. This is the first. He mentions Jeffrey's name in a very friendly way, but it's also the only time you will ever hear it. And this is in our field. This is something we call psychological distancing or severity softening where we don't say the person's name. I did not have sex with that woman. Phrases like that. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, a few things. One, he's redefining party. If you notice it's his stress word in the entire thing. What he defines as party and what you define as party, I would guarantee would be different. And his idea of partying is probably back to your tiger thing. They might be clowns involved. So this is one of those times that he's redefining that word if you listen to the stress. He does something I call sacred space. He's closed up and he starts to mill his hands. That's an adapter and a barrier. What you're doing and the reason I call it sacred space is you're taking control, giving yourself a new place, giving yourself room and then making familiar the unfamiliar. And it is a comforting move, but also a blocking move to give yourself some room. He drops his chin. He has his chin down his brow up. His eyes are closed and his respiration increases. And you'll notice when he opens his eyes, he's drifting down to the left. Down to the left is a different place than directly left. When a person's accessing memory, typically, on their left, and now this is where Scott, I do believe in eye movement and I do think it's powerful, you need to baseline someone. But if I ask you to calculate 15% of 980 and you try it, you're going to find an internal conversation about math going on in your head and your eyes are going to drift slightly down into your left with those people. Now you baseline each person and figure it out, but over and over and over, when he's walking through a minefield, you see that activity, that down left as he's thinking about what to say next and walking through it. I agree with you 100% Mark that in the case of him going, yeah, he just felt a bite on the line and he's going to let her run with it and he's teasing her to get her to go. This is a great start down the tunnel. She understands what's happening. The last thing I'll leave you at, you can see the flirt in him here. You can certainly see the flirt. When he makes eye contact and he turns his head but still keeps eye contact and then draws that pulling taffy move, that's the flirt. That's the draw you into my space and make it remembering that he is, after all, a real prince, not a fairytale prince. Excellent. Anybody else? Yeah, one thing I want to put on this is in the business of lying, you can't be lazy about it. If you're going to lie, you've really got to have a good understanding of what evidence is out there. When it comes to, you know, I'm not really anybody who really parted, just there's too much evidence that that's not accurate. And so everything from now on has been diminished for him because we have an image of Andrew in our head and he's suggesting that we're not right. Well, this is kind of a gaslighting tactic. He's going, no, reality isn't as you've seen it for the last several decades. Well, that's going to be hard for public opinion to stomach. It was a cosmopolitan group of what I would describe as US eminence. Was that his appeal then? Was that what you... because you were perceived by the public as being the party prince. Was that something you shared? Well, I think that's also a bit of a stretch. I don't know why I've collected that title because I don't... I never have really parted. I was single for quite a long time in the early 80s but then after I got married I was very happy and I've never really felt the need to go and party and certainly going to... Geoffrey's was not about partying. Absolutely not. Okay. Anybody else? Very good. Absolutely not. I thought you weren't very good friends but would you describe him as a good friend? Did you trust him? Yes, I think I probably did. But again... I don't go into a friendship looking for the wrong thing, if you understand what I mean. I'm an engaging person. I want to be able to engage. I want to find out. I want to learn. And so you have to remember that I was transitioning out of the Navy at the time and in the transition I wanted to find out more about what was going on because in the Navy it's a pretty isolated business because you're out at sea the whole time and I was going to become the special representative for international trade and investment. So I wanted to know more about what was going on in the international business world. And so that was another reason for going there. And the opportunities that I had to go to Wall Street and other places to learn whilst I was there were absolutely vital. All right, Mark, you go first. Yeah, so what I want to hit on here is just how he's trying to control this using authority. And I think what I've heard Greg and Chase talk about kind of reading out the resume and this idea of well, so he starts with if you understand what I mean so it's pretty condescending. So he's trying to get compliance by going if you don't join in with this train of thought my guess is you're probably not smart enough to really understand this because you have to remember so there's a real instruction there you have to remember because it's vital so he's laying down really clear words of compliance and then he goes into because in the Navy Wall Street he's reading out this resume of why you would agree with them right now and many people might think well isn't that just kind of verbal tactics well for me it is nonverbal tactics because he's trying to create an atmosphere around himself something that will cause a sense of authority around him and gain compliance Excellent Greg Yeah so we're close on this one Mark I call him Moses come down from the mountain he's a life of service he's done all these things for you Navy more than one time with a heavy influence this I needed to learn new things so I could even be a better servant to the British people that whole life of service is here I think she lets him off the hook a little bit he feels that lack of pressure and he starts to be who he really is and to talk more normally I don't see a whole lot of deception here to you the same thing exactly I see he's building this aura around himself and he's Moses come down from the mountain Exactly chase what do you got I think he secretly reveals a lot during this and he said he starts off by saying I don't go into a friendship looking for the wrong thing which may indicate why did you become friends with this person and he is feeling persecuted because of because of that so that's his first first line of defense is to say that and we notice there's a little more distancing there's no pronouns when he refers to Epstein here and throughout the statement he's talking about the naval career there's a little bit of his shoulder shrug and we start to see a repetitive pattern that you'll see throughout the entire video when he needs some reassurance which he does a lot throughout this interview you'll see a big eyebrow flash it makes my contact a big eyebrow flash and make sure that he gets that he's kind of communicating uncertainty to make sure the other person nods and she does very frequently to help him keep moving along okay keep it short I'm seeing a lot of truth here so there are some things that are iffy but still I think there's more truth indicators than anything in this part I do think he's being honest about one thing this guy Epstein the only reason that he had the power he had is because he had the ability to coordinate all these meetings and I do believe there's real value in that to Andrew and Chase to your point when he said I don't seek out bad things doesn't mean bad things didn't come as a part of it that's a different discussion so I think sometimes when you're interviewing people they inadvertently give you all the building blocks and you have to figure out how it all goes together but I do think that all these celebrities and all of these wealthy and powerful people didn't go to Epstein because he was Epstein who he could connect with he's linked in and that's what gives him the want to say that so hey everybody else is doing it I'm doing it too and there's a reason I'm doing it because I need to for business so for who I am absolutely not you said you weren't very good friends but would you describe him as a good friend did you trust him yes I think I probably did but again I don't go into a friendship looking for the wrong thing if you understand what I mean I'm an engaging person I want to be able to engage I want to find out I want to learn and so you have to remember that I was transitioning out of the Navy at the time and in the transition I wanted to find out more about what was going on because in the Navy it's a pretty isolated business because you're out at sea the whole time and I was going to become the special representative for international trade and investment so I wanted to know more about what was going on in the international business world and so that was another reason for going there and the opportunities that I had to go to Wall Street and other places to learn whilst I was there were absolutely vital are we good? yep there were absolutely vital he was your guest as well in 2000 Epstein was a guest at Windsor Castle and at Sandringham he was brought right into the heart of the Royal Family at your invitation but certainly at my invitation not at the Royal Family's invitation but remember that it was his girlfriend that was the key element in this he was the plus one to some extent so I think Ray in that one it's really important to him to shut down that whole bit about he came into the bowels of the Royal Family so he starts in on that earlier Greg what do you got? I saw a couple of things right off he does something that Trump is very good at it's that condescending pause and slow and over pronounce for example when asked why he called it a Chinese virus he said it because it's from China this is the same exact move and this is by Prince Andrew put him side by side with Trump and you'll see the same body language that slow pitch across the teeth that condescending look at the same time he's parsing facts this is one of those places where if I can take some of your facts apart then your story has no value and we've all done this in an interrogation room where a guy starts to say well I didn't kill four people I killed two people so your story is broken no matter how ludicrous it is you start taking the story apart by taking the underpinnings out of it and then he starts this whole plus one he's trying to get back to some kind of normal and I'll leave it at that Chase? I think he's looking for confirmation from the other person again there's a couple of confirmation glances and this just happens when a person makes a statement and then looks up in the middle of it or right afterwards to make sure you bought it but most of it's truthful I think he's trying to redirect the narrative and we're setting up for the he wasn't my friend she was Excellent, Mark what do you got? Yeah so that jump on the invite to I think Sandringham may have been and saying that it was him not the royal family not the queen and so it's really important for him at this point not to involve the monarch once that happens he's potentially as good as dead so and clearly I would say from that he is not supported at this point he has no support from the monarch if there was support he would be saying it was a royal event and then it would be unquestionable but at this point it really is a case of another example I think of he's out on his own right now So is he surrendering his immunity of sorts almost in that way and that then could explain some of this cascading of body language that's starting to occur right after this Mark I mean I'm just asking you please don't you know I've put that in Scott because I don't know anything about royal family really yeah Yeah so the royal family has a history of having to save itself every now and again it has to save itself and keep the UK as a constitutional monarchy which means that the monarch has power but not really and this would be a great example of him really understanding that there's no way that he can involve the monarch and yet at the same time he's borrowed his mum's house I don't think she knows were absolutely vital He was your guest as well in 2000 Epstein was a guest at Windsor Castle and at Sandringham he was brought right into the heart of the royal family at your invitation certainly at my invitation not at the royal family's invitation but remember that it was his girlfriend that was the key element in this he was the plus one to some extent in there was there were absolutely vital he was your guest as well in 2000 Epstein was a guest at Windsor Castle and at Sandringham he was brought right into the heart of the royal family at your invitation certainly at my invitation not at the royal family's invitation but remember that it was his girlfriend that was the key element in this he was the plus one to some extent this is my favourite one am I right in thinking you threw a birthday party for Epstein's girlfriend and girl in Maxwell at Sandringham no it was a shooting weekend a shooting weekend just a straightforward shooting weekend but during these times that he was a guest at Windsor Castle at Sandringham the shooting weekend we now know that he was and had been procuring young girls for sex trafficking we now know that at the time there was no indication to me or anybody else that that was what he was doing all right that's my favourite one it's just like a Ricky Gervais bit I mean I've seen that a thousand times on everything he's ever done he does that one bit right there he's comically bracing himself for that whole thing everything moves and he gets ready he literally braces himself for that thing to happen you see his foot go up as a barrier when he's talking about that his hands of course clasp because everything's going ah here we go because I don't think he knows how to quite he's got an answer but that's not the answer he was going to use because he's got his rehearsed stuff that he was showing or rehearsed in practice and told to say but I don't think that's what he's doing there and his eye grounds are up for that request of approval Greg's always talking about so he's waiting to sort of saying you believe it do you believe it so Greg what do you got yeah so you hit most of them but that preparation for defense he's looking up right he's ramping himself embracing he breaks eye contact to come back come back as a warrior coming back at her no indication to me the longest vowel in the entire conversation is me emphasizing me and then he says or anybody else he quickly fills in with a wilt at the end asking for approval his brow is up and then yeah there's a there's a follow-on I don't know if we're going to cover it Scott if we do cut this piece but then he says and if there was and if there was okay mark where you got yeah so let's see whether we cover that if there was but there's a huge swallow gesture there on that and then then a bunch of resume which we should go into but let me go let me go back a little bit which is that no so it was just just a shooting weekend you know a straightforward shooting shooting weekend and that no that comes before it is what we call condescension because it is literally with a descent condescension it's with a descent and this idea of going from high to low and showing I'm high status and your low status it's there again to get compliance from the interviewer luckily she's she's well not luckily she's done a lot of work on being too good for him so it's not she's not complying with it at this point I'll hold back on some other ideas because I think hopefully we'll have some follow-ons right here we have a large inhale right into the chest there's a postural shift there's digital flexion which just means the fingers are squeezing in towards the hands and we have a temporary gaze aversion which is when we're making eye contact with somebody they ask me a question and I do this right before I answer which are all deceptive markers but those things need to kind of combine together like Legos to for us to say that's probably deception but they came together pretty damn well in this one yep and one other fact if you're looking at somebody breathing if you watch a human sleeping their belly will go up and down not their chest relaxed people and he's been on camera all the time is we shouldn't explain away the nervousness from the cameras relax people breathe in their abdomen and stress people breathe in their chest and it's pretty easy to see in any conversation we see this big breath in the chest later in the conversation when he gets more comfortable it goes right into the abdomen excellent very good yeah one last thing as we're watching him throughout this entire thing chase I love the fact you pick up on that chest rising as you're watching this thing anytime his back is turned or anytime he's in an oblique watch his respiration increasing because it gets pretty damn fast moving over the next few few minutes yeah because I we're going to talk about his pulse rate here in a few minutes chase but at one point I think I'm clocking around I know it's 90 up 90 around the seventh question right there I could be wrong about that because I kept looking and looking and looking but man he's he's burning through through some of that heart rate wise I think exactly at 13 minutes he is 103 okay yeah and I think I think we're coming at this point to a moment of a first real score where there's a real turnaround for me in the in the interview and the interviewer interrogator really scores a triumph am I right in thinking you threw a birthday party for Epstein's girlfriend girl in Maxwell at Sandringham no it was a shooting weekend a shooting weekend just a straightforward straightforward shooting weekend but during these times that he was a guest at Windsor Castle at Sandringham the shooting weekend we now know that he was and had been procuring young girls for sex trafficking we now know that at the time there was no indication to me or anybody else that that was what he was doing thank you you have to remember that at the time I was patron of the NSPCC's full stop campaign so I was close up with what was going on in those time about getting rid of abuse to children so I knew what the things were to look for but I never saw them so you would have made that connection because you stayed with him you were a visitor a guest on many occasions at his homes and nothing struck you as suspicious nothing during that whole time nothing just for the record alright chase what do you got we see a lot here and in this video we see him start to develop his narrative and we see a little more lip licking behavior which we call hygienic gestures we see the stroking of the hands back and forth and this is a pacifying gesture I think it's meant to calm him down a little bit he knows the questions are getting a little bit more difficult and you'll typically see him do this for the rest of the interview after he answers a difficult question to kind of calm himself back down and you'll see his hands and feet go crazy and the further body part is from the head the harder it is to control when you've got adrenaline flowing through yeah so his foot is in a great spot for an interrogator to watch that happen excellent Greg what do you got yeah so a couple of things he does steepling you know this thing where you put your hands up this way it's like Mr. Simpson's Mr. Burns is like excellent you know it's an authority figure it's also a compromising thing because your hands rotate as you're feeling more and more compromised as I want to agree with you my hands will do that and then even you'll see people's hands upside down as they feel compromised I have a great picture mark of Tony Blair standing in front of Condoleezza Rice with his hands down like that really bad idea so it's a gimme because I can watch your hands rotate as I get control so wonderful tool and you can see him also grinding his fingertips to your point Chase he's starting to adapt trying to get comfortable he'll rub he's trying to contain that body language in his fingertips somebody's coached him to pay attention he there's also he says in here he takes holy ground again I was the saint looking out for children who are being abused and later in the same interview says well I wouldn't have noticed anything like that because I wouldn't have suspected it well come on you can't have it both ways so I think he steps into a bear trap here that she uses against him later it's a resume statement it is it is and later when he says I would not notice it he's discounting his resume which is beautiful Mark yeah so let's just dig into that resume statement because I think it's really important for people to understand what he's talking about there the national society for the prevention of cruelty to children and he's saying well you you have to remember so he uses this a lot uses ideas like well it's funny or you know you need to understand or you have to remember you have to remember at that time I was the patron of the NSPCC so that he was the father of it he's saying there is absolutely no way that I could ever be involved in anything like that because I've taken a patron position and of course we know that's not factual and in fact Britain has a history of people hiding in plain sight and using these institutions and and founding them and certainly supporting them in order that they can look you know clean so as a public we're not really buying it it's a foolish move of his and it doesn't make any sense and I think because of all of those things we know he's not connected with his audience at the moment he has no help at the moment I think I think but to your point he's going back to coaching that he's had he may be going back to resistance through interrogation that he may have had as a helicopter pilot my guess is he would certainly have had that he's keeping himself very tucked in very still but he's using some he's making some classic errors of how not to perform in this kind of situation and I believe it's because he has no at this point he's on his own he has no advice and he's not taking any advice to your point resistance to interrogation has its place and the person who knows what they're doing and I won't point out what they're doing certainly has some tools I will say that the one thing he does very well throughout this thing is he is a master of stammering for effect he and it's his pattern it's how he controls the conversation he sets up the next sentence Scott you and I talk a little bit about this you have some more insight on that piece and I think you could add that in here so what's bugging me here is we're seeing him explain that he's the guy in charge he's one of the main guys that understands what this is what it is when people are trafficking children and he says he knows what these things are to look for however he doesn't see him and I think as trainers we know what those things are and we would be able to point him out instantly as soon as we saw something like that you have to remember that at the time I was a patron of the NSPCC's full stop campaign so I was close up with what was going on in those time about getting rid of abuse to children so I knew what the things were to look for but I never saw them so you would have made that connection because you stayed with him you were a visitor a guest on many occasions at his homes and nothing struck you as suspicious nothing during that whole time anybody got anything else oh good just for the record you've been on his private plane you've been to stay on his private island you've stayed at his home in Palm Beach you've visited Gellin Maxwell's house in Belgravia in London alright what do you got Chase so to to Greg's point one thing when we look at eye movement what I call for just me personally I call it home where is someone's home when we ask him a question of what happened a certain day his home is to our right somewhere near the middle area and when we ask somebody a geographical location we ask them to imagine visual things or geography they typically look in another direction so we get another sense of that here when we ask him where it was and he was making sure so his to his up and left is a little geographical area and maybe all we're doing is just kind of collecting some data points here but we see that completely accurate instantaneous yep yep yep and during those there's some eye blocking going on and we kind of close our eyes during some we're recalling something emotional and recalling something that we really don't want to but right at the end when they're talking about the house in London you see him say yes followed by an immediate eye flutter behavior afterwards which I think shows that something happened there and if I'm the interviewer that's the moment that I push the shovel into the dirt I'm going to start digging the moment that I see that eye flutter because it was one behavior and then we see a flutter in response to the other one okay I'm going to add something to that because I think there's something really important going on here with the third question there when he says yes to that the first first question she asked him he closed his eyes two times and we've talked before about and Chase you call it the when the lens closes really quickly because you're waiting to look at something really quick so you're yeah the shutter speed of your eyes relax that first one yeah everything's cool he's got two blanks there the second question four alright a little bit more and the third one he only goes to two but there's so much going on in that third thing something's up something has happened at that house something's going on there because here's what we see when she asked that the first one he asked his lips first he's like here we go she's going to nail me for being at these places that's understandable and then when he gets to the third one when he talks about the the homin or is it Palm Beach the right side of his upper lip goes up a little bit like in contempt of the stain or whatever we see that go there and his cheek as well we see that we'll get into micro expressions for a minute we're not really doing that because these things are so big so let's let's dial down on some of this stuff and I think something either bad happened there something's not right there it's the only place where when he answers these his eyebrows go up he looks for that I don't know if he's looking for approval or what's going on there Greg you have to you have to see that again but there's something going on there it's the only time we see that the bottom part the whites of his eyes his eyes open so wide we can see those that's the only time we see that he's running something something in there has happened because we're seeing that almost Pavlov's Pavlov reaction to that to that question when that word comes up he's like bang something happens there very quickly that he may be ready for that I can't tell but it's the only time his eyebrows lift that high and it's his longest delay before he answers all the other ones are just like the rhythm is right there he's loping but when he hits that one there's a slight just a little longer of a pause before he answers so I would say something's up there either he had a bad experience there or he was afraid he was going to get busted there or something's up with that situation I don't know what it is maybe we'll find out later on but I would try to remember that the the Palm Beach house because I think something's up there Mark what do you got so let's just look at the tonality of those yes's because they're a good baseline if we take away everything that we're seeing he goes yes yes all the tonalities are the same around that a great baseline for us to judge that he's telling the truth there very different from what we heard before was yeah yeah yeah very different now absolutely we see on that third one those eyes dart across and all of us there are going well they're summing up there well I think there are two things up number one is we're going to find out there's a photograph for a start there's a picture taken in that place but there's something up as well because he already has his argument for that he already has his argument for that and he gave away his argument at the start which is that I do remember but other stuff he just doesn't recall he doesn't remember and so I think that dart across is number one about ah yeah that's the place with the photograph and I've got my solution I've got my way out of that one I don't remember it and then we're going to go into a whole bunch of stuff around the idea that if you can't prove that a photograph isn't fake it could be yeah for me this one is preparation right this is a naval officer in royalty he's prepared for this that yes yes yes these are facts I think you're starting to see real fighter flight here he does a mouth grooming move if you notice this he pushes his tongue there's a reason you're doing that protein builds up in your mouth from stress and mucus membranes start to decay fairly quickly without blood flow and then a little bit of mucus comes in and the next thing you know you've got this stringy garbage producing in your mouth and your self-groom I've seen that thousands of times in sear I would see protein build up in the corners of your mouth you get white protein caked up in the corners of your mouth because of the level of stress that's a really bad indicator that a person is in fighter flight that you'll probably never see in your life but here you're seeing it in a very wealthy person who is under high stress from a different cause that internal mouth grooming is because he's dry in the mouth he may not have protein breakdown yet but he's certainly a mucus membrane but he's certainly feeling the effects of fighter flight number one I think the quick glance is because he's prepared very well to answer yes I did this yes I did this yes I did this and I think to your guys point he has a plan for how he is going to unfold this story I think he has a plan and so you see that movement otherwise you guys have covered everything except respiration is ramping rapidly now fighter flight you see the nostrils flaring see the skin getting lighter and the best part of this whole thing is he's aging as you watch him his face is looking older by the minute so that by the end of this and guys we're seven minutes in and you're seeing his eyes bagging his face sagging all of those things that you expect the president who goes through this but not in seven minutes you're seeing a difference in his face the stress is there right just for the record you've been on his private plane yes you've been to stay on his private island yes you've stayed at his home in Palm Beach yes you've visited Gellin Maxwell's house in Belgrave you're in London yes so in 2006 in May an arrest warrant was issued for Epstein for sexual assault of a minor yes in July he was invited to Windsor Castle to your daughter Princess Beatrice's 18th birthday why would you do that because I was asking Gellin but even so at the time I didn't think that certainly I wasn't aware when the invitation was issued what was going on in the United States and I wasn't aware until the media picked up on it because he never said anything about it all right now this is the part where it's easy to say what his pulse radius from looking at that that foot sticking out there so Chase why don't we start with you so that artery is pushing the foot and little jerks and you can see it luckily we've got HD video of his feet so I think his foot was on camera for 7 seconds his foot went about 8 or 9 times and I did 9 divided by whatever times I saw it and then multiply that by 60 and we got a pulse rate so if we saw X number of things in 12 seconds 12 divided by 6 or whatever is whatever and then we'll multiply that by 16 the heart rate but what we're seeing here is we see more severity softening here and severity softening for you watching this is so one of the most common things when we do an interrogation for somebody that's guilty they don't want to say murder they'll say hurt they don't want to say steal they'll say take they don't want to say rape they'll say have sex with so we'll soften the severity of everything and it's so so deep here that he doesn't say when I found out about the sex ring he just says when I found out about what was happening in America so this is this is a big deal to look for in the in the next few videos okay great what do you got yeah his point raised through the roof watch his tie and you can see his pulse pounding it's almost like a little signal there you can see he's ramped up he hits the oh moment here for sure you see him rolling his eyes and then he he goes to his stammering defense words he goes back to the idea friend it was my friend it was Galen it wasn't him and you know I don't care who it was if tomorrow Scott I found out that your best friend was a was a child trafficker I'd say Scott you're welcome your child trafficking friend can stay home you know that kind of thing but he's got an excuse for this if you watch him you'll see that moment when he realizes that this is going to be a problem he's poised for fight-or-flight all this stuff starts to ramp up he goes back to his defense words he stumbles and he purse and he starts to purse his lips are the things I noticed and it agreed with you a hundred percent that softening words that blame shit people blame share they go to softening words they try to get away from the act right right I had a 90% deception on that okay mark where do you got I just want to mark out one thing to Greg's earlier point on the words arrest warrant from the interviewer you get a push of the tongue inside the mouth here so you know there's a moment there of you've now been friends with somebody who definitely has an arrest warrant so there is crime going on you are your friends with somebody who needs arresting for something criminal my guess would be in fact my knowledge would be is you don't get a warrant unless there's really good evidence so the moment you've got an arrest warrant for a crime of that nature it's pretty good you know pretty good that something went on okay I want to add one more thing which again is this authority idea is that they both pronounce Gelen Gislaine differently differently and it's very marked out to say you don't know how to pronounce my friend's name you're not part of this group this group is a little bit higher than you and you don't know how to even use the right words somebody who didn't want compliance and was looking for relationship would most likely just join in on the name being pronounced slightly wrong from their point of view he's very clear about letting the interviewer know that she keeps pronouncing in his mind his friend's name incorrectly she's not part of the same society Prince Andrew has spent his entire life in the spotlight not least when he married Sarah Ferguson and when they separated six years later the Duchess of York talked about feeling alone and not being prepared for royal life when she first married you do you think lessons have been learned now and make it easier in the future I would like to think that lessons have been learned because my goodness some lessons did need learning but memories sometimes can be quite short so a challenge a challenge I think if anything when it happens again which it will do with William and Harry then I suspect there will be a lot of people like their father and their uncle making sure that they're not necessarily they're fully aware but people around them are fully aware of the consequences of getting it wrong despite the divorce the Duke of York has maintained an extremely close relationship with his ex-wife what do you think Greg? yeah so a handful of things to look at in his baseline this is a baseline with him being probed in his personal life again as well so we get to see what's normal for him nothing to lie about but you can see that his focus is internal when he gets to the personal and he breaks eye contact and goes to an internal conversation he's talking but he's not really making eye contact because he navigates he's not releasing everything the other really good thing to watch here this is 2010 this is brow a hell of a lot to talk I do the same thing and residuals occur when you use those muscles over and over and over unless you both talk to them you leave wrinkles and you can see it in his forehead now you can see his forehead constantly moving and that brow beating thing he does is left behind that we can't know what's going on in his head but we can use this as a baseline to look forward to the future and know that it's a personal issue so we've got a good start point here excellent what do you guys think yeah so I would agree and I think it's probably a good baseline on how he performs when he is holding back some elements of information because if we look at his speech patterns he's not being you know verbally you know fully expressive I would say he's clearly holding back information or couching information and so I would take it as a good baseline for him and when he's couching information there also the other baseline I take from this is he says a challenge a challenge and that would feel to me like he's suggesting he's stopped talking he's done but if you shut up he just keeps on going so one of the things as an interviewer is to never take those you know reiterations as a signal to go for a new question if you shut up as the interviewer he'll just keep on spilling the beans does that make sense in America spilling the beans oh yeah what do you think Chase that's absolutely true and there's another technique while you're interviewing if someone does the challenge thing you just repeat a couple of the last words that they said the verbal reflection or verbal mirroring as they teach at the FBI that really gets it out of them and you can see this happens a couple of times in the interview and we see another baseline for this lip licking hygienic gesture and you even see it at the very beginning of this clip right before he kisses his wife at their wedding even and we saw a couple more things the face wrinkles that Greg talks about in my training I call that expression etching it just etches over time but we also see he makes eye contact the same way a lot of charismatic people do which is 50% of the time while we're speaking and 70% of the time while we're listening so he does that a lot if you go watch Bill Clinton on Conan O'Brien get interviewed about his first job he ever had you'll see him look down at the ground and smile while he's recollecting the memory but we have a good baseline here so we see some of the behaviors that might look stressful in a different scenario now we understand are are different excellent and what I'm seeing is about loping and it's how when you tell a story you start talking that's what we're seeing here we're seeing a baseline of him just loping along and we don't see that at all in this interview it's nowhere to be found in there I've been looking for it it's one of my favorite things to judge things from when you get a baseline on their loping what they sound like and look like nothing in there after he starts this interview so for me and his attitude of course is a lot different as well he's not all stressed we see him relaxed not that he shouldn't be relaxed in this not that he should be relaxed in this other interview because he's being everything's on the line there she's more of an interrogator than this lady what a great job she does I know I keep saying it but my goodness in these examples we're going to see we're going to see an example of what she or we get the pizza part where she asks him a question and he talks about it turns around and asks it again she does it almost every so good at that so good at it so let's get started with question one Virginia Roberts has made allegations against you she says she met you in 2001 she says she dined with you, danced with you at Tramp nightclub in London she went on to have sex with you in a house in Bel Gravia belonging to girl in Maxwell your friend, your response I have no recollection of ever meeting this lady none whatsoever you don't remember meeting her so Trace you're going to say something before we watch that, what are we going to say about that video we just watched beforehand right at the beginning of the interview if you've heard of micro expressions before it's basically just a tiny quick facial expression and there is a beautiful example there, it's a wonderful teachable moment for anybody that's watching right as she says when you guys got married or words to that effect you can see the sneer on the left side of her face where she shows contempt for the prince in that moment you can see the side of her face tighten up so when you see like a one sided smile that's what a contempt facial expression look like and it's the only facial expression that is asymmetrical excellent, okay so let's talk about what we're seeing in this first when she questions him here about Virginia Roberts, Mark what are you yeah so I actually want to go to his strategy here because he foreshadowed this strategy as we talked about in our first episode together when he said that's the bit that I remember suggesting that there will in the future the elements that he does not remember and so I would suggest here he's now on his rehearsed piece he's already strategised I'm going to say I don't remember this I don't recall that and so I think that's what we're seeing playing out here is a strategy what I'm interested in is what can we detect underneath that because this is rehearsed for him this is his moment so I'm wondering from everybody else how's he doing Greg you want that one yeah not so well, number one he's got that problem of steepling and his hands are in his lap so he can't go any further down to show that he has been compromised so he starts to mill his hands and do some wonky thing with his hands that's energy trying to escape the body I want to get my rear end out of this chair and out that door but I can't so I'm going to try to find a place to go right in through here and it could it's harder to see in this but pay very close attention to his pupils they don't just dilate a pinpoint again that is stress when your eyes start moving when your actual pupils start to move that's a really good indicator of stress levels the last one that I really am paying attention to not only as he drop his jaw to cover his throat but his jaw recesses and his upper lip drops I almost think he looks like he wants to cry for a split second there that little micro expression looks like a little boy he does he looks like he's on the carpet mom has gotten him for doing something in his eyes what do you got Chase yeah so that pupil dilation this is a rare thing to see in these video interviews because this camera is super high def the angle is really great and pupil dilation is something you look for only when there's a steady lighting conditions the lighting conditions are changing that's obviously probably due to the lights so this is a perfect setup so if you go back and watch this clip you can see the pupils start changing in size another thing you can see from over his shoulder is his breathing rate starting to increase you can see that shoulder going up and down and another one just for this small clip you can also get his pulse by looking at his legs towards the end and I think back to what Mark said about this whole thing being rehearsed that's the reason we're seeing him nod and say yep yep yep he's just he's saying I've done that yep I've prepared for this he's nodding in anticipation of the next step of his plan so I want to jump in here and just reiterate on this this isn't stress because he wasn't expecting this question this isn't stress because he's going what am I going to say here he's got it planned this is stress about something else that's what's important here's a place to talk about the thing this guy if you think he's stupid you're stupid because this guy is brilliant this is methodical and he has a process driven approach and Scott I know you can talk more to this I call it chaff and redirect I'm going to lead so much stuff behind me that you'll chomp at one of those and the minute you do I'll take you there and he has been asking for that in his congress he's a great storyteller he's seen a lot of stuff history behind him he's heard people tell stories he's got to learn the stories of the history of the royal family he's got to know all that stuff so he's been hanging around people who tell stories he's become a great storyteller now there's a guy named Yuri Hassan and he's that I think it's Purdue and he's the guy that did the studies on the brain and storytelling and what he found was your brain will sync or connect with someone else's brain and hang on as you tell him a story it happens very quickly I won't get into the details of the studies you did but they're fascinating Yuri Hassan I believe it's Purdue so if you want to learn about that if somebody wants to learn about that it's a great thing to check out so that's what he's doing here that's why these things as we know why stories are good in marketing they're good in all kinds of things that's why he puts these almost in story form as you go along you'll see him so he can hop from one thing to the other and like Trump when Trump as Greg's pointed out before and Trump says something and he wants to that's it I've said it there it is he gets that tag he's tagging but what's not tagging but he's marking those spots where he's completed something like Mark was saying by saying or okay or whatever the words where he was saying that's exactly what he's doing there and to chase this point when we're talking about micro expressions we're talking about the dilation when he gets to the part he talks about Virginia and having the when she says against you when she says you that's when that that's when those they get small and they start getting bigger his pupils you can see them get small and then start getting bigger that's when the big one hits against you she says she met you against you she says she met you and then at the same time if you'll notice I'll show this when we go back he's got a lot of nostril flair really small if we're going to talk about micro expressions let's get up in his hiding and talk about the micro parts very small but I'll show where that happens as well it's the same thing on the larger side when he starts he does what I refer to as fading facts as he's talking if you ask somebody a question did you like the car on fire that killed the kid in the house and they say well I wasn't there I don't know what you're talking about it usually from that time of day we go to the park as the more they talk the less the quieter it gets he's shown he's unsure about this answer and I believe he knows something's up there's somewhere some more information about this girl and him that's going to pop up later somewhere I don't know what but he knows that that's what but he's still taking that chance he can't say here's what I know here's what I did you know so we're seeing those fading facts he's lying but he's pretending he's telling the truth but you see a good choir as he goes as he tries to distance himself from that lie so anybody else hey one thing I will add the last thing the pupil dilation and pinpoint when I worked here that was the only place it was common you don't see that very much in people because if they're shocked often their pupils may dilate and then go back to pinpoint really the pinpoint and opening that's a rare thing to see not just chase in an interview with a camera but in people in general you just don't see it off Chase pointed that out yesterday when we were talking about that when he gets to the part where he says Virginia he's like blank but then when he gets to you then start getting zero and in I'll show it up close because it's fascinating what's going on here you're going to watch them move because you just don't see it that often yeah here we go I'm just trying to work this out because you said you went to break up the relationship and yet you stayed at that New York mansion several days I'm wondering how long I was doing a number of other things while I was there but you were staying at the house a convicted sex offender it was a convenient place to stay I've gone through this in my mind so many times but at the end of the day with the benefit of all the hindsight that one can have it was definitely the wrong thing to do but at the time I felt it was the honourable and right thing to do and I I admit fully that my judgement was probably coloured by my um tendency to be too honourable but that's just the way it is alright Greg you want to go first yeah guys and hopefully I won't steal anybody's thunder but this is my single favourite moment of the entire video because he is frail here this is the most frail you'll see him throughout the entire interview this is a mea culpa if there is one anywhere hey I did something stupid and if you just said that it probably would have come across just fine but instead definitely the wrong thing his body language is showing that we talk about eye movement a lot but one of the things to note is that when people get emotional they're big and heavy, long of a head drifts down into the right and you'll see he is kind of bald up but he is gesturing and illustrating what he's thinking his head is down to the right his eyes are down to an internal conversation and then his brow is down as concentration he is looking over for some approval and his eyes are not his eyelids at this point are not fluttering I'll use your term chase and follow it his shutter speed his processor is running it's not eyelid flutter it's processor and then he looks up at her and request approval as he tries to salvage some dignity this is a two step process he's saying hey here's this horrible thing I did he's working through the mechanics of it and trying to find at least a scrap of dignity in the background and saying I guess I was too honorable I think it's trying to recover some of what he should be it's the most frail moment in the entire video to me what do you think chase I completely agree with Greg and this is a great humble brag but I think it's also going into the narrative it's going into his narrative and we see a shoulder shrug the moment he says it we see when he's trying to gain a little bit of approval we see the eyebrow flash and a head tilt we expose our necks to people when we want to be trusting when we're curious about something and protecting us from big cats was our original reason we had to raise our shoulders and that was from old Joe Navarro and that whole time throughout the interview every time he gets a question he knows he's cared for or he knows that's going to be tough you see the large upper chest inhale before he answers every time Mark what do you get yes I want to hit on one thing here which is one of the ways he tries to get compliance here and move this away so we know that this is a hot spot for him because he wants to move on and he says I've been through this in my own head so many times so what he's suggesting is I've already thought about this can we just move on because I've already thought about this I've done the processing we don't need to talk about this in the open I've thought about it and then from there because that doesn't succeed because the interviewer doesn't go oh okay yeah I'm sorry you've already thought about this what haven't you thought about what would you like to talk about that doesn't happen she's silent it has to move on and so that's why he has to go there into you know I think that's a great idea that shows the humble brag or the virtue signaling and it's a big signal to say I'm just you know too honorable too honorable that's extraordinary that's his ego because as he's going through there and I think he's thought about that before we can stick that in and that's that ego coming out because what he's trying to do when he comes out of there as he's talking he's open he's say but you'll notice when you first those illustrators when he's open you'll see that foot come up as the barrier it goes down fairly quickly but still it's up guarding as he's supposedly being open so and I think that's what that is this is ego getting out of hand it sort of gives you an idea about what kind of person you're dealing with there well again we're dealing here Scott with somebody who doesn't have any advisors around them right now because a decent advisor would have heard that from him and gone you know you actually you're all heinous you're not going to say that here's exactly what you're going to say you are going to take responsibility for an element of this and and therefore deflect from the element which you're not going to take responsibility for but you are going to take responsibility and Chase has talked about this a number of times which is building somebody a bridge to get out of this situation yeah now this interviewer I don't think is building many bridges and that's what's great about it but it's not that you can't build your own bridge out of this but he's not taking the advice on that and so that's why we're going to see this become a disaster for him ultimately in that you know not to to spoil the plot of this but he ends up essentially resigning the next day due to all of this and one thing you notice when he says I've thought a lot about this if you go back and listen he says he only thought about it after it became public right he says as soon as well after everybody knew about it exactly what he says right that's a I don't know if we cover that one but that's one of the best lines in the entire thing I thought so too I wanted to make sure we at least put a little thumb back in that one I'm just trying to work this out because you said you went to break up the relationship and yet you stayed at that New York mansion several days I'm wondering how I was doing a number of other things while I was there but you were staying at the house yes convicted sex offender it was a convenient place to stay there's I mean I've gone through this in my mind so many times at the end of the day with the benefit of all the hindsight that one could have it was definitely the wrong thing to do but at the time I felt it was the honourable and right thing to do and I admit fully that my judgement was probably coloured by my tendency to be too honourable but that's just the way it is alright everybody good? another guest was John Brockman the literary agent now he described seeing you there getting a foot massage from a young Russian woman did that happen? no you're absolutely sure or you can't remember? absolutely sure so John Brockman's statement is false well I wouldn't I wouldn't I don't know Mr Brockman so I don't know what he's talking about but that definitely wasn't you getting a foot massage from a Russian girl in Jeffrey Epstein's house alright so now it doesn't sound like you think foot massage is a big deal but when you see I watched the first episode of this Epstein thing when you see that first episode you'll realise why that's an important part here that's a key to what's happening in that house and some other things I see going on of course you've got that head tuck but when you pay attention to his blink rate I don't want to step on you Chase because I know a lot of times everybody covers the same things we try to stay out of each other's way so if I'm not stepping on your blink rate it plummets I think he blinks three times to this whole thing because he's making sure she's believing him so if he has to add in qualifiers and then you start looking at he never says no when she asks him she says so Brockman in other words so Brockman's lying he never says no he starts talking but he never says no and his movement overall and this thing he's almost like a statue compared to the way he is in the rest of the interview he doesn't move hardly at all he does some but not much at all so I think that's important as well because he's taken in all that information the only thing I didn't see in there was his eyes get really big which I kept expecting that as you'll see when somebody he's got the head turn as it's going but the eyes don't get really big you know after that big fake surprise he throws on right well I think that's his big eye movement right so keep going Greg what do you got yeah yeah for me this is the classic overreaction if you don't know someone at all and I mentioned them you don't go oh he was there I don't know this guy but I'm reacting that way well something caused you to cue that's one of the biggest overreactions in the entire video is that crazy shock with the eye thing puts his head forward, leans it down his pupils actually close in this one Chase I'm sure you've noticed better than I did but his pupils actually close very very tightly in here his eyes are all in he's got a conspicuous retreat and then he makes eye contact solidly when he goes to the no and it's one of the emphatic nose in this entire thing I think there are about three that are emphatic denials and this is one because this I think you're hitting it dead on Scott because this is the gateway when you watch what Epstein did his creepy factor starts this way so that's I think what you're saying Chase what do you got I think the surprise was genuine and I think it might be in reaction to oh crap that guy said something or maybe I didn't know you can see if we go back you can see the sclera the white part of our eyeballs above and below the iris the little colored circle which is kind of hard to fake especially if you're under a lot of stress and we see if anybody watching this if I accused you of doing something that you didn't do you'd say that statement's absolutely false we none of us would have a problem calling someone else a liar if it was false and then again if I have guilty knowledge about something then a foot massage sounds really dirty but if it's just a foot massage and I don't feel guilty about anything else what's the harm in saying yeah that was me I was getting a foot massage and you'll see it like again you'll see the importance of that in that Netflix thing in the Epstein so I think he's performing over the surprise in order to try to create another narrative there which is curiosity I think exactly as we've said so far he's genuinely surprised by that either because it's hey I didn't think that guy would say anything or what you've got a witness and my the thing I want to get across to you listening to this is if you're gonna lie you've got to make sure there isn't any evidence out there because the evidence is going to show up at some point lying is for the lazy lying is for the people who don't want to take the punishment right now for what they've done because the evidence is showing up later maybe in your life maybe in somebody else's lifetime but it's showing up it's coming out unfortunately here I witness who is alive now and has talked so now what's his way out of this it's incredible it's well I don't know him the idea that if I don't know somebody it means they could be a liar that's his logic and if we unpack that logic we see that it's provisible it's laughable that's not accurate that if you don't know somebody it means they're probably a liar so I think we know he's he's fried now this is now going one way and it's all downhill from here for him he's not in control of this I agree and I think what that big fake what was he's trying to catch his surprise at that point he's probably I don't know if this guy angers easily or not I would bet from seeing that he probably does because I think it got away from and he was trying to catch it going what instead of being showing his anger he showed that he does it twice in this interview that same exact eye movement thing later when they're talking about Florida I believe is when he does it again is that the one where he's talking about I'll find it but it's one where he's talking about there was a dinner and I was there that part that was a potty Narky and sarcastic you know what that reminds me of is Judge Smales from Caddyshire I hand to God I was thinking as I was I thought I'll drop that in there for what we did because I thought that'd be too cornball I'll play I guess I don't I guess you don't and you know one quick teachable moment we can share with our viewers here is at this point if you're ever asking somebody questions and they don't know how much data you have this is when we would do something called a punishment question or a bait question a bait question specifically starts with the words just real quick and easy is there any reason that's all so we're not going to say I have a bunch of evidence we're not going to say anything but is there any reason that somebody would have come forward just yesterday and said that they saw you do X, Y and Z and one quick tip with the bait questions is we raise the stakes in the beginning so we say listen John I really like you and I just want you to think very hard before you answer this question and then towards the end we want to be a little bit vague because if I say is there any reason someone saw you do this at 9.02pm and you did it at 9 then you could say no there's no way here's another great opportunity to teach something you just said right there's a thing called we know all and I may have a file full of garbage and I can say I know that you did something the minute I nail down a fact that isn't true we go from we know all that we don't know anything right and that's the point the more finite you are with your bluff the more danger you're in another one when you add too much information too many small things I don't know for example if you were to say any reason whatsoever yeah for your DNA I'm talking about hair, eyelashes skin cells, maybe you spit all these things you'd never find but you throw all these things out and you can see them running that scenario in their head as well as you keep going down that road and you're just throwing out the bait the bait question that's one of my favorites that's why I like to read techniques so much I know I talk about that a lot but it's like a dang it's like a muscle car you know you can put all what tires you want flames on the side oh paint whatever color you want not recognizable from two people at one point because you get so good at your own version I think that's the key the four of us work well together is our body language versions are so different because we come at it from different angles it's what makes this whole interrogation and lie detecting and body language thing a great second career yeah yeah alright they're really good did you worry that he had something that could compromise you no no do you regret that trip yes happen she provided a photo of the two of you together yes your arm was around her waist you've seen the photo I've seen the first how do you explain that first mark we could also baseline that with some of the yeses that he gave earlier around places that he'd been as well we talked about those in the first episode and let's just look at it simply let's just say you've got upward intonation and downward intonation I mean it's a little more complex than that but let's make it really simple you know there's the rising tone yeah which can signal an idea of there's something coming next or that's a question not a statement there's another bunch of things as well but let's keep it relatively simple so his nose or yeses will tend to illustrate that there is probably something else there and it is not emphatic an emphatic no will be no an emphatic yes will be yes in fact loud and downward intonation we tend to call command tonality which I'm doing for you right now and questioning tonality will be up like this and suggests there's something coming next which is why it kind of keeps you on this kind of hiatus and gets quite annoying after one if I carry on making statements but having that upward well he's doing that I love it yeah so let me leave it at that because I just think it's a good teachable element to just see tonality in simple forms of there's up or there's down and down could be seen as more decisive and up could be seen as there's something more to come or I don't quite know excellent chase what do you got if you're about to get hit and you know someone's about to hit you you're going to turn your head and look at them and with everything here if we know somebody who turns out to be a disgusting human being like Epstein you're will be comfortable saying it will be comfortable saying the act will be comfortable saying the person's name will be comfortable saying it's disgusting I hate it I denounce all of those things which never happens once in this video and it culminates with what I think here is one of the key factors that runs this whole thing are you worried he had something that he could use to ruin your reputation his whole body's frozen there's a tiny no and maybe the verbal stuff isn't there but the rest of the evidence throughout the entire conversation really does spell out that if I'm worried that there's a video that might get leaked somewhere I'm not going to talk about that person in a negative light ever and I can't ever I can never denounce what they do what they did and I'm going to use their name as little as possible in the interview bring as little attention to the person who has a gun pointed up my head as possible excellent Greg what do you got this one's really easy for me everything else aside all that's great and all that is true and that's the compounding but no one who is not concerned does this were you concerned no I mean look at his brow look how knit and tight and squared down to this imagine somebody looking at you and singing happy birthday like this what would you think he's communicating stress and concern with his brow and it is knitted and knotted and that's good enough for me but if I didn't have any sound I would know something is wrong right there excellent did you worry that he had something that could compromise you do you regret that trip yes she provided a photo of the two of you together your arm was around her waist yes you've seen the photo I've seen the photograph how do you explain that excellent I've got nothing to add to that except for it's just really quiet because you know it suggests we're seeing conception I think alright here we go do you remember dancing at tramp no that couldn't have happened because the date that there's being suggested I was at home with the children Mark you go ahead well let's go back to that tonality let's just say that if I'm giving an emphatic no do you remember dancing at tramp no yeah it's like no so that elongation of it now I think the elongation is because he's ramping up to his strategy and this is he's already got this sorted out it's not possible to dance at tram because you're having pizza at pizza express with your kids so it's just he's moving into strategy here that's why there's that funny tonality right chase where you get this is where the reviewer ask him do you remember instead of did it happen and that is you're giving them a permission slip to just say yes or no and what we'd like to say we know that this whole thing is going to play off memory so we're going to say why would she say this or what happened that evening tell me about this entire day where were you and did you do it and this is also an argument or a denial from recollection it's not a denial it's a denial of recollection so keep in mind he's not denying that it happened he's just saying the date might be wrong at this point okay great yeah for me he's he's on his plan we talked about yesterday or in the earlier version he's on his plan he knows what he's going to say here so he's just prepped no it's just a kind of a flip but no I don't hear I don't see anything dramatic all I see is him ready for battle he knows that he's already prepared hey I was with my kids yeah here again I'm just seeing fading facts I mean that's the big one that sticks out for me as he's talking just gets quieter as he goes along because that which is another side of deception do you remember dancing at tramp no that couldn't have happened because the date that there's being suggested I was at home with the children so alright everybody good good you know that you were at home with the children was it a memorable night on that particular day that that we now understand is the date which is the 10th of March I was at home I was with the children I'd taken Beatrice to a pizza express in working for a party I suppose sort of four or five in the afternoon and then because the Duchess was away we have a simple rule in the family that when one's away the other one's there I was on terminal leave at the time from the Royal Navy so therefore I was at home alright Chase you want to go first sure this is what I call an over answer so someone makes a denial and says no I didn't drive to that convenience store in Robert I actually I drive a Ford Explorer it's a it's about a year old it's black and just got it vacuumed out a few weeks ago and I also park it in reverse in my driveway so no couldn't have happened so we're just adding unnecessary detail to something to help help the answer sound more credible and more full of information for the person listening right I totally agree with you because what he's doing is building that picture like you gotta take out of your head and give it to somebody else and you're so they're in the impression you actually see all this stuff happening as they build as they add these qualifiers to what's going on Greg what do you got? Yeah exactly guys that is an inject that is information he's packaged he's prepared if you notice his baseline is pretty human it's normal he's rhythmic he's telling a story and all of those details are there to support and there's a word that people don't commonly use to close out a story therefore that's his proposal as to why he couldn't have done it yeah because he wants your brain to go on and fill all that in that's right that's a that's a summation that's Alan Dershowitz talking not him right that's the way people talk when they're presenting their case yeah Mark what do you got? Yeah so virtue signalling there you know I'm a hands on dad this is the arrangement that we have with the Duchess so so that would be his ex-wife the kid's mother but you know most people would probably go so I got this arrangement with the kid's mother you know if they're divorced or they're on actually quite good terms so he's more likely to say you know Sarah and I have an arrangement because of the Duchess and then goes on to say terminal leave from the Royal Navy okay so we know you're a Vice Admiral we understand that you maybe don't need to tell us the name of the institution that you are in service in the Vice Admiral of so for me it's you know as we've talked about before and I think you know maybe Chase coined this term is reading out the resume it's signalling that resume and that's quite a hot signal of potentially over compensation for something now let me ask you guys something we've all been young men before when you went out what time did you start going to the clubs what time did you start going out when you were looking for chicks man when were you going out about what time was that 9.15 wait at least in London it's about after the pubs shut anyway because you don't want to get caught up in the 1030-11 melee Tramp goes till well late it's renowned for going later than anything else at their house at the Princess House he's not by himself he's going to have somebody there to watch the kids I'm going to step out for a little bit he's out of town she's out of town and this guy's out he's going to clubbing at that point he says at 4 or 5 o'clock nobody's going to go out at 4 or 5 o'clock those people aren't even up yet I have a mission I have a mission what did you do I guarantee if you nailed him down we left the pizza express and then went home and then went to bed yeah 4 or 5 is not the time when you go to Tramp Tramp is next to Fortnum & Mason they do high T so if you're looking for high T Fortnum & Mason will do it for you there's no dancing there you have to go next door to Tramp at midnight onwards for good catch dancing great catch and also you see them self soothing things it's not huge but if you watch it, it goes from very light to getting just a little bit more as he starts rubbing his thumb there what do you got on that Chase anything with the self soothing behavior aside from what I already said our good friend Joe Navarro has one of my favorite phrases and it's small enough to fit on a bumper sticker but it was profound when I heard it and he said any repetitive behavior is self soothing and that's all you need to know and I always call that you're making familiar the unfamiliar when you're in a bad place and you want to make yourself comfortable everybody does something tug your ear play with your hair pick your nails whatever it is it makes you comfortable pacing and that's all there is to it thanks why would you remember that so specifically why would you remember a pizza express birthday and being at home going to pizza express in Woking is an unusual thing for me to do a very unusual thing for me to do I've only been to Woking a couple of times and I remember it weirdly distinctly but as soon as somebody reminded me of it I went oh yes I remember that I have no recollection of ever meeting or being in the company or the presence okay Mark that's yours what do you think going to pizza express is a weird thing to do that's condescending because he's pizza express in the UK is a quite a nice place for fairly ordinary people to go to so what he's doing there is trying to get a laugh of recognition out of the interviewer to say somebody like me would never go to pizza express so it's very very rare but the smile we see from him doesn't have the narrowing of the eyes and doesn't have therefore these darker areas appear there so he's trying to get compliance he doesn't truly mean the smile which is why he doesn't get a laugh back or a nod of recognition because it is true it is a weird place for his Royal Highness to show up at pizza express and you know suddenly Prince Charles sat down next to me I would be like well this is very very notable and odd so yes it is odd he's trying to get compliance from the interviewer and a laugh out of her but what gives it away is it's not a true Duchenne smile it's not true pleasure it's one of those slightly forced come on laugh along with me join in smiles all right Greg what do you get yeah I take a step further I'd say it's a contained controlled kind of a monarchy smile and almost a criticism of the whole thing right look I'm low-classing myself I'm debasing myself by going there and we all know it exactly like you said Mark but then there's that contained and curving down controlling the smile almost like he's self-amused so yeah I think that's why she doesn't respond because he looks self-amused Chase yeah I think that smile was I'm pretty damn pleased with myself right now and you could be too and you could join me but here's the one thing that I got out of this that I think it's easy to miss and I think this is the one thing that pulls everything together if the reason he doesn't remember is because it didn't happen then he'd be comfortable saying it didn't happen and here's why if he remembers every detail of going to the pizza place because it was an unusual event but let's go back I remember the pizza place because it was unusual if he remembers unusual events with great clarity meeting this woman and dancing with her and then later having sex with her would be an unusual event so either a he makes a firm denial if that's unusual I would remember it it never happened ever or B that's just a usual event doing things like that becomes something that's usual so here's a place where I may have a different opinion on this one this is a good opportunity for us I think he has a prepared denial and the reason he comes back at the end with the statement I remembered that but I don't remember his strategy and his prepared statement chase and I would say either is possible because we can't the cool thing about what we do is we can't see inside their heads right but what we can do is see the symptoms it's one or the other I feel like he's got a strategy and he's trying to grasp at it and hold on and go back and repeat this I completely agree it's every one of those things and he's just denying them right so I mean either A you make 100% denial or B you don't remember it because it's something you do all the time and that's possible right so this points to me around being a good liar you know for anybody out there how to be a good liar but if you're going to be a good liar not only do you need to sort out your details but you must sort out your internal logic your internal logic must be foolproof around this because anybody with a with a decent questioning power will just undo the logic and then the story is going to is going to fall apart in front of you but let's assume for a minute and this is a good discussion so hopefully it's useful for what we're doing let's assume for a minute he is lying out loud and saying I went to this pizza thing and then doing by live omission the walk away he is coached very well coached because he didn't verbal bridge one time not once did he verbal bridge that's a great indicator you know that Navarro and Schaefer talk about verbal bridges is their term but all that means is hiding time and then after that those kinds of things don't show up in this conversation that chaff that words that mean absolutely nothing with an occasional drift word that you want to pick up on is everywhere and chase I get where you're going with that I feel more like he's just accomplished as a liar because you've been doing it for a while I'm not saying and by the way I'm not accusing and I'm not saying he is lying I'm saying there are signs of deception perception in that recovery for story right well and I want to add to that what I think what he's doing is distracting and this may be very specific to a British public because this is really for the British public in that he's he's trying to save an element of the monarchy right now which happens in British history you know every so often and what he's doing is giving us an image of the royal family a royal member in pizza express so that you know our cultural brains go well isn't that odd what an odd image and we fixate on that rather than the logic of yeah but Trump isn't open at four or five so I you've got you have people who look after your kids you've got security on you and security on them you can go out any time you like especially in small hours of the morning or late at night it doesn't make logical sense this is a case of have a look at that weird squirrel over there come on look British public look over there at the same time at the end of this thing this is where it cues me and that he's been coached because and not just in this one not for this one section but overall here's what you do when you're being you know in other words hey man check it out here's what you do when you're going to lie when you're setting something up keep this in mind and what he's been told is to remember every time that that girl's name comes up every time the situation comes up be sure and say I have no recollection of because at the end we get that head sideways and he almost like a gotch moment jets in there with and I don't recollect whatever at the very end like he's almost laughing about it you know it's always yeah so that's a part where he's got to oh I've got to stick that in he's because he goes down it's almost like he's jabbing in there with it to add that in at the end so that's what tells me that that he's had he's and he's had great coach and this guy is so smart I don't mean he's not a genius I don't think but God he's he's really smart knows how to do that he's done it so well to this point but then again I got to give that interviewer what's her name Mark um uh mate less Emily Emily mate and she's she's really good at that to not be you know you know and have her have her role I mean what's interesting about her Cambridge educated I think uh Jesus College maybe uh but the only presenter of that particular show news night there's been female presenters before the only presenter who wasn't privately educated so and that will tell you one thing is she isn't going necessarily to fall for this status idea she's Canadian too right she's Canadian yeah she was born just up the up the road a little bit from here so Canadian British so he's is outside of that coterie those ranks of the aristocracy and royalty and and so he's not going to comply so much so I do want to go back for just a second to what Chase said though because I do think that's a great point when you're talking to people if they don't remember something that is odd maybe it's not odd for them just in this case I think he's trying to stick to a story but I think often when you're interrogating or you're talking to someone and they can't remember details because they've done it so many times right subroutine there you go all right we good the world has now seen the photo that Virginia Roberts provided taken by Epstein we understand in Gerlaine Maxwell's house but here's the problem I've never seen Epstein with a camera in my life I think it was Virginia Roberts camera she said a little Kodak one that she lent to Epstein he took a photo and your arm is ground I don't remember I don't remember that photograph ever being taken I don't remember going upstairs in the house because that photograph is taken upstairs and I'm entirely convinced that I mean that is what I would describe as me in that picture but we can't be certain as to whether or not that's my hand on her whatever it is left side all right Greg what do you got yeah so this is one of my favorites when we talk about people looking for a door he's certainly looking for a door he looks like he's tap dancing if you see the sole of one foot turns up the others moving this is not anything to do with an artery that we pointed out over and over this is I want to go somewhere he's moving around he's now nailed down this is starting to get to the point where you're getting something viable it's hard to say even says yes that's me clearly in the photo but if you're looking for a place both feet are active I don't remember that photo being taken that doesn't say the photo was never taken nobody took that photo of me I mean if you ask me was I in the photo no I assume I must Photoshop that I don't remember going upstairs ever going upstairs he goes on to say and that's upstairs well how the hell do you know excuse my English how do you know that's upstairs if you have never been upstairs you're assuming I guess I'm not entirely convinced that is and falls very short of a no to me very short of that's not me and he goes on I don't think we have it in this piece of video but he goes on to make a royal family reference immediately after this to put himself back at a higher status than everybody he's talking to when he says as a member of the royal family I don't often take photos and and all of those pieces coming together look like a guy who's looking for an out it's a way to get away from everything and it's not a clear denial and so Mark we're not dealing with the royal we here when he's saying we don't know we're not sure no I think that sees he's some advice there from some photographic experts or advisers of some sort and the advisers have said look we've looked at the we're looking at this and nobody can prove it's a fake so it could be a fake that's a weird piece of logic if you untangle it you know you can critically think that out very very easily but that's the coaching around this what's interesting is he goes outside of what I believe his coaching is on the camera piece because he jumps on it he jumps on it and I think what's happening he's going I've come up with a better argument around this which is I've never well there's a problem with that I've never seen Jeffrey Epstein with a camera expecting us to go oh well no I mean obviously yeah you've never seen with the camera so that can't be a photograph of you get that all through this show stupid little that can't be true right well she comes she's not his camera it's somebody else's camera I mean so he's fried by that piece of of I guess you know skill of the interviewer in there and then he goes back to his training I don't remember I don't remember suddenly it clicks in yes that's right they told me to keep saying I don't remember just answer everything with I don't remember what an idiot I am I went for my own strategy there and it just got blown out of the water immediately that's what I think is going on it's a horrible car crash it's an awful awful car crash chase what do you got my favorite thing about this whole thing is that he never says it's not me doesn't make a denial but even cooler than that he does something called psychological distancing where he says that looks like quote somebody I would describe as me or that looks like what I would describe as me instead of that looks like me what I would describe as me that's a way I would describe myself but it might not be me we're still leaving a little ambiguity in there it's like he's looking at a police artist sketch instead of a photo so I thought that was great that was a great great illustrator of what or how to listen for psychological distancing instead of just saying me he says that and when he is getting close to saying the woman's name at the end it just trails off the world has now seen the photo that Virginia Roberts provided taken by Epstein we understand in Gerlaine Maxwell's house here's the problem I've never seen Epstein with a camera in my life I think it was Virginia Roberts camera she said a little codec one that she lent to Epstein he took a photo and your arm and his ground I don't remember that photograph ever being taken I don't remember going upstairs in the house because that photograph is taken upstairs and I'm not entirely convinced that that is what I would describe as me in that picture but we can't be certain as to whether or not that's my hand or whatever it is left side anybody else we good? she made these claims in a US deposition are you saying you don't believe her she's lying that's a very difficult thing to answer because I'm not in a position to know what she's trying to achieve but I can tell you categorically I don't remember meeting her at all I do not remember a photograph being taken and I've said consistently and and frequently that we never had any sort of sexual contact whatever once again he's going for that the same thing all over again and the classic line that tells me that he knows he's in trouble because he says and I always hate to bring up Anthony Wiener but Anthony Wiener is one of my favorite stuff to just wail on but when he says I can tell you this he can't tell us anything else because he's going to get in trouble, he's going to go to prison or whatever that's usually what happens but he's saying I can tell you this and that's the part that that supposedly shows that he's not being deceptive that he's being, that he's telling the truth I can tell you this why can't he tell us anything why can't he tell us anymore because if he does tell us anymore, if he tells us anything besides that he's going to be in trouble what do you think about that Chase well back just a few minutes ago he said he doesn't remember her and now he's talking about not having sex with it so that's a little change here and we also see obviously I'm sure everybody saw it failing to answer the question completely any one of us, any normal human being would say absolutely she's guilty of perjury she has perjured herself and none of that stuff is true and we see a little bit more psychological distancing here he's failing to use the name of the victim and he's also saying sexual contact instead of sex so anybody who is accusing or an innocent person has no problem saying those words they have no problem saying the criminal type of words the more severe words to describe a crime what do you got Greg? yeah so a few things, you're dead on no denial at all first of all did you have sex with that woman no I'm going to run over a couple but here is the Bill Clinton statement I have said consistently and frequently we had no sex we had never had any sexual contact I did not have sexual relations with that woman Miss Lewinsky, that is his statement in the same way that Bill Clinton did doesn't say he's lying said it's a prepared and canned statement that he's worked on, he probably had an attorney working with him to make sure he said the right things he also then we pick up on the same things a lot of times Chase, he said instead of no recollection this, no recollection recollection of that woman has been his argument all along a little bit off the reservation there and then when he says I categorically deny this is one of the few times he does a straight down eye contact break which we typically think of as submission, they know they're on the griddle and those eyes break straight down that's not accessing nobody accesses like that that I've ever seen in my life you may access this way, that way, this way, this way but that's breaking eye contact in a submissive fashion odd for him first time I've seen it Mark, what do you think? I'm not going to add anything because it's a waste of our time in a waste of the audience's time who are intelligent enough to look at what's happening there and the verbal obfuscation going on to understand exactly what's happening here I think it's been said the interesting thing is we're just unpacking intellectually what everybody knows and if there's any moment in this interview that meant that next day he needed to resign this is it because isn't it a simple answer you know, is she lying yes, she's lying all right, we'll be simple well that's all we got unless you guys can think of something else we need to cover okay well let's throw it around the room Greg, you want to give us your we have looked at baseline of him and no he has a little bit of a wonky baseline anyway all the grooming himself chase to use your terms but he licks his lips a lot just who he is as he's preparing to talk so some of the things that we see unless it's really pronounced are not abnormal for him we look at baseline baseline is the only thing that matters to me the rest of the stuff is nuance what tells you when something is changing as you walk through this if you really want to be entertained turn the video on, turn the sound off and turn closed captioning on and look at the sentences with 97 words and what and who and when and how in one sentence this guy is brilliant at staying off of the topic he doesn't want to until he's not when he gets there, he's like a worm on the griddle we missed the one piece that I really we probably should have covered and that's I Can't Sweat that's a great piece of really you're sweating pretty hard right now otherwise he gets in a bind a lot of times because of a great question and if you're watching this and you want to do a good job of detecting lies pay attention you need to focus and get the person to answer questions not allow them to give you a chaff and run in another direction Mark what about you yeah so the same if you're out there and you're wanting to detect lies yes there's look at what people are saying there's look at what they're doing there's also look at the atmosphere that they're putting around themselves and how are they using the narrative of that atmosphere the idea that they're projecting about themselves to manage you and manage your compliance around the story there's the story and then there's getting you to join in with that story and that they'll do with often status authority sometimes they'll lower their status to do that that's often done in the con the con artist will get you to think that you're a higher status than you are in order to get you to engage with their story which is too good to be true in this situation what this person is doing is trying to raise constantly raise their status so the accusations couldn't possibly be true because they're too high up too virtuous too honorable chase well he is too honorable he told you himself I comply yeah I think we saw management here this was just perception management 101 and I think that there is a legitimate concern from the prince that there is something or someone out there that has information that could seriously hurt him and what one question I would have loved to ask and this is something all interrogators most interrogators know this is why do you think people do this kind of thing I would have loved to hear his response and whether or not he denounced this stuff because it was never it was never really brought under the light and that might have been a mandate for the interview like we're going to we can talk about all this but we're not going to bring this up but I would have loved to bring that into light and say why do you think people do this kind of thing and get a reaction and that would be really telling at the very beginning of the interview excellent excellent well for me it's I agree with everybody in this Greg when it comes to the baseline I think what we're seeing here is that wonderfully and almost perfectly executed delivery of the information that he's supposed to be giving you know and he's given it in that and he's sitting in the context like Mark's talking about he's there in the palace where everything looks expensive and it's all that it's all the hoo-ha that comes along with that to put his story in and then what Chase is talking about as far as protecting himself and making sure that everything is cool although he knows something's up or that he's in trouble he still continues to protect himself I think this is, I think she did a great job the interviewer did a wonderful job at this and I think and this guy is brilliant, I know I keep saying it but I'm telling you this guy is so smart I think he did a fantastic job of protecting himself as he went through there but it's still, it's like a swimmer protecting yourself from a great white shark he's done for and I think he shows I saw a lot of I will go around and talk about the percentages of truth indicators compared to the percentages of deception indicators and when it comes to that for me I saw a lot of truth there I saw a lot of things him tell a lot of truth a lot of things he was telling I'm going to give him, I'm going to say deception I saw about I want to say about 80% what he's talking about the rest of that 20 to 30% is the truth I think as he goes through and is telling what happened and he's relaying personal things that really did happen but he's leaving things out, the omission part of it so that's what I think I'm thinking it's 70%, 80% deception and then 30%, 20% truth what do you think Mark? I would say that the baselines that we see for him is which of Epstein's buildings he's been to and you know just get that baseline if you've been to this place, yes this one, yes, this one, yes I mean if I were to look at where are we seeing the most truth that's where I go to so for me I would say he is 50% truthful 50% let me back up I would say he's about 50% truthful when he's talking about things it's deception in places because of the way strings the pieces together but there's about 30% chaff in this there's so much misdirect and redirect that it's difficult to call it deception and the true deception is when he refuses to deny something when he refuses to admit something either one of those is deception the last thing I would leave is this you don't need to be an expert to know to feel this, to see this the British public figured this out pretty quickly that's the reason he left the next day and there's been a lot of fallout from this we all instinctively can read some of this we're putting words to it so that you can learn to quantify what you're seeing that's our intent Chase I'm going to go with 75 deception 25 truth I think there are some things in there that we could see 100% he was very very honest about I think the kids spending the evening with his kids at the pizza place that happened and you can see it in the behavior there's no hesitation there's no couching no avoidance so I'm going to go with 75 excellent I would like to think that lessons have been learned because my goodness some lessons did need learning I'm Scott Rouse I'm a body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation in the body language I'm Mark Bowden expert in human behavior and body language help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility including leaders of the G7 Chase Hey I'm Chase Houston, 20 years in the US military and wrote the number one bestselling book on behavior profiling, influence and persuasion Greg Hartley I'm a former Army interrogator and a written 10 books on body language and behavior Today we're going to talk about Prince Andrew he's in the news again because of his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein but mostly because of his relationship with Ghislaine Maxwell or Ghislaine however you say your name Greg tell us about the videos we're going to see Yeah these videos are with Emily Maitlis back in 2019 and this is where he denies a lot of the things that he's now in trouble for and that just caused him to have all of his titles taken from him the three things we're going to look at is he says that Epstein was not his friend which is part of his defense the second was I do not sweat and the third one was I was in working and could not have been at Tramp's nightclub He was your guest as well in 2000 Epstein was a guest at Windsor Castle and at Sandringham he was brought right into the heart of the royal family at your invitation Certainly at my invitation to the royal family's invitation but remember that it was his girlfriend that was the key element in this he was the plus one to some extent Chase what do you got This video is a classic example of selling instead of telling and his behavior starts right away with the submissive interjection trying to get his point across in a submissive way the submissive behavior is very outside of his normal baseline and when he says key element this is indicative of the phrases somebody writes down or is briefed before a trial or deposition and you see even more selling when he takes this confused look to share his uncertainty about the definition of a plus one just so he can kind of get some agreement from the other person this is backed up with this classic even does a little of what Greg calls tathi pulling where he's kind of pulling her along to get some agreement there and as a quick side note if anybody's ever hung out with Epstein and then goes on TV and they don't talk about how repulsive that behavior is or how disgusted they are by it that should be a gigantic red flag all on its own and that should tell you almost all you need to know that's all I got Greg poorly his message has aged in the beginning this message was about I'm not Epstein's friend I'm Glenn's friend well she's in prison now so that didn't age well and if he thought that was a great defense he's in trouble for that he alternates between confusion that's these muscles in the middle gathering and request for approval holding his brow up as he tells a story and Chase you're right he's pulling he's trying to get that fishing thing going he's fishing for approval he makes way too much eye contact he's actually pulling thing happens because you keep your eyes connected and turn your head it's an odd kind of a request for approval but yeah his message certainly didn't age well and this will be an interesting one Mark what do you got? Yeah so hang on submissive I mean I went on the internet and I saw that it says you know if people are getting good eye contact that means they're pretty positive they're pretty confident well that's true until it absolutely isn't you're right there of course because if you look at his baseline what he tends to do in interviews where he's not on the hot plate and he's really able to play that status that he has at this point which is Vice Admiral pretty high up in the Royal Navy there and he's a royal at the same time is he won't give any eye contact at all while he's listening to other people's questions he won't give any eye contact at all while he's giving an answer flashes eyes now and again to really put an emphasis on specific parts of his answer here he locks a lot of eye contact just as Chase says he takes up space with that but but but he's literally fighting for his territory right now and that's displayed in the way he takes up space with his words and with his eye contact there he is on the hot plate here and this is very out of character Scott what have you got on this one? I agree with you Mark wholeheartedly because what he's doing there at the top is he's using not only trying to speak as a regulator he's using the but but but but he's also got that look of concern on his face so in a way he's using his expression and his words as a regulator. Regulators are the things you use to speed up or slow down a conversation or stop them and those are usually done with your hands and sometimes with your head but in this case it's mostly facial expressions and what he's saying at that time and while he's doing this his head goes down and starts guarding his neck because he feels I think he's under the impression there's going to be some stress here because he's not being honest about this as we know and he keeps throwing he throws the thing over to like Greg was saying over to the to his girlfriend Galane and says he was just a plus one with her so it's like and he separates himself from that from the royal family when he does the illustrator coming in like this and then he says the royal family makes them bigger and away from him so he knows he's got to separate himself from him because there's trouble there he was your guest as well in 2000 Epstein was a guest at Windsor Castle and at Sandringham he was brought right into the heart of the royal family at your invitation but certainly at my invitation not at the royal family's invitation but remember that it was his girlfriend that was the key element in this he was the was it were plus one to some extent in you good? do you remember her? no I have no recollection of ever meeting her I'm almost in fact I'm convinced that I was never in tramps with her there are a number of things that are wrong with that story one of which is that is that I don't know where the bar is in tramps I don't drink I don't think I've ever bought a drink in tramps whenever I was there Greg what do you got? you can't miss this one the blink rate increase and then he progressively gets more amused with his answer he's got an answer for this one and he's got that request for approval that brow up I almost in fact I am convinced well he's navigating he stutters through the beginning of this thing I was never in tramps I don't know where the bar is I don't think I ever bought a drink when I was at the bar in fact is what he's saying he has emotional eye accessing down to his right when he does break eye contact at one point and then when he's saying I don't know where the bar is look at his forehead and if you have children see the kid who spilled the chocolate milk telling you no it wasn't me that is exactly the look right here Chase you've got a great chocolate milk story and this one would be your kid trying to tell you that didn't happen but you can't miss that all that self amusement but the chin down to protect the throat forces that do lap of his out and it's just so noticeable in him it's hard to pass up Chase what do you got? we put our chin down to protect ourselves and when we're in fear and keep in mind this protected our ancestors anything that really protected our ancestors gets passed down and coded into our DNA that's when we have facial expressions and body language that all matches up unconsciously so we're seeing this unconscious response to fear here and this upward tone which I think he's just kind of transferring or selling his uncertainty to the other person but the biggest thing in this clip is his blink rate and blink rate refers to how often we're blinking so we can go from really slow or not very often to very often quickly and that's an indicator of stress with a high blink rate and low blink rate is relaxation or focus the average in conversations about 15 and if somebody's really stressed out their blink rate can be around the 50s and in this particular video his blink rate is around 91 which is an indicator of extreme stress and extreme mental processing which is going on and Greg I think that is also hilarious I don't think I bought a drink when I was at the bar I don't know where it is I think that's great Mark what do you got? this gaping mouth that we see at the start a bit like a fish now it could be a number of things he's definitely under stress I agree you see it in the blink rate for sure and so it could be him gaping to take in oxygen it could be him doing his butt butt butt but silently or preparing his answer I'm not quite sure which one it is either way it's not good either way it's not a good indicator whatever it is but I do want to bring out this but what inflection that he's got here just as Chase says there there are some universals some unequivocal universals in body language that chin coming in we all have delicate areas here all of us human beings on the planet are going to gravitate towards that under stress tonality can change culture to culture person to person and so if we think about his cultural tonality being from navy being somebody who is royal themselves he's going to have a lot of command downward intonation when he's very very certain of things and we do see that in his baseline for sure so why here are we getting so much upward intonation as chase pointed to there her story where the bar is in tramps I don't drink ever bought a drink whenever I was there all of those elements that he should be certain of he's giving upward intonation which means he's asking for approval or is uncertain himself looking looking for buy in again it could be any one of those or all of those whatever it is it's not good and it's way out of his baseline so I don't like the look of it Scott what do you got on this one this is the reason I hate going last because everything gets covered I'll go back to the beginning of it just do about how he was talking about things so the answer to this is no I never met her not no and then what are called qualifiers where you add things to make your story more believable because you don't believe it yourself because you know it's not true now the great thing about this interviewer when he gives an answer she just waits she just sits there and keeps looking at it and he keeps starts adding things and making him uncomfortable so he starts adding these qualifiers that really don't mean anything and he's just digging his hole deeper and deeper and deeper and making it harder to get out he says I've never bought it I don't know where the bar is and I've never bought a drink Mark and I well you've all talked about this Mark's been there it's not too hard to see the bar when you go in that place number one that's number two and the number one if you've never bought if you've been to this place a lot and you never bought anybody a drink whether it's a girl or one of your buddies or all your but remember cheapola you know this is a prince he's got all the money in the whole wide world he's not bought one drink at this place give me a break that's I'm not I'm not buying that and yeah Chase is bleak right I actually got in there and in an eight second period there toward the top it's 17 times in eight seconds and I had so many it was so fast I had to slow it down and do it frame by frame to catch them all and it was and in that one section that's 127.5 blinks per minute and I just added that because you always add how much it is per minute but in that small little section that's a whole lot that's all that that's yours going tick tick tick tick in his were fluttering and that's a form of eye blocking as well and we we look away or we'll block our eyes when we're for example you'll see that when people are here in a joke at work and they're not comfortable with it and there are people around that will be embarrassed by the joke you'll see a lot of times cover their eyes our people close their eyes and in this case we're seeing him do that with his fluttering I think at the same time that's a combination of eye blocking and his brain trying to come up with an answer and to make his qualifiers even more shiny as it goes along. Do you remember her? No I have no recollection of ever meeting her I'm almost in fact I'm convinced that I was never in trance with her there are a number of things that are wrong with that story one of which is that I don't know where the bar is in trance I don't drink I don't think I've ever bought a drink in trance whenever I was there Are we good? Yeah Let's move She was very specific about that night she described dancing with you and you profusely sweating and that she went on to have bath possibly There's a slight problem with the sweating because I have a peculiar medical condition which is that I don't sweat or I didn't sweat at the time and that was oh is she yes I didn't sweat at the time because I had suffered what I would describe as an overdose of adrenaline in the Falklands war when I was shot at and I simply it was almost impossible for me to sweat and it's only because I have done a number of things in the recent past that I'm starting to be able to do that again so I'm afraid to say that there's a medical condition that says that I didn't do it so therefore Wow what a f*** Go out and look I sent Scott this picture when we were doing this there's a picture of him leaving a club sweating like a f***ing pig yeah man he's a f***ing f*** Greg what do you got Yeah this is one of my favorites so far I don't sweat is his defense okay well that's easily provable and then I think he even in the middle of it realizes that is easily provable so he has to come up with some other reason and sweat now that he didn't then so he goes about navigating and telling you well only after taking some action recently and when he says that he eye blocks specifically at that time in the beginning he's uncomfortable his chin's down and that laugh is not a laugh of confidence that's a laugh of uh oh and then he thinks he comes up with an answer swallows a couple of times that's discomfort that's the kind of story about adrenaline too much adrenaline caused him to get to this point now I'm gonna tell you I talk about seer a lot in my seer days we have pushed people to adrenal fatigue to the point that they ball up in the floor I never saw anybody lose the ability to sweat as a result of that maybe I wouldn't mean enough don't know but this is suspicious on the medical field side never mind just you can tell that he's not telling the truth all those clusters go together you don't trust this Mark what do you got? yeah there's so much in this that I just want to concentrate on one thing that kind of means the most to me and you can watch how it progresses and that's when he's telling this story how you're gonna see his thumb creeping behind his index finger and then eventually get totally hidden in his hand there by the end of it now just as chase was talking about you know there are universal areas on our body that are universally vulnerable it doesn't matter who you are, where you were born who you were born to, what society or group you're part of your joints are vulnerable and if you've still got thumbs these thumb joints are so important because without that thumb joint working you can't do opposable thumb pinching and you can't do any kind of delicate work with your hands which is why you have this big neocortex primarily so you can do all of this stuff so these joints are really protected under stress and pressure, you'll see people do that all the time, the thumb and the forefinger keeping those covered up, he does this beautifully in that and that alone for me because of the way it progresses is a huge indicator that this story he is utterly unconfident around Scott, what have you got on this one? I agree with you, 100% he uses his hand again as a regulator then as a barrier he doesn't even get to finish the question he tries to shut her down and it takes him 14 seconds to get to the part where he has a condition where he can't sweat and so my dad's a doctor and I asked him, I said hey what disease is it, what has happened where you don't sweat what are the situations where that comes up and he said heat stroke you sweat out as much as you can sweat out you're not going to be able to sweat anymore I said what else is there and he said nothing I can think of I said what about, you have a big adrenaline dump, what happens at that point he said no that's not going to do it either and he explained to me there are different parts of the brain that handle the sweating part of what happens with your body compared to the things what happens when you have an adrenaline dump so there may be some kind of situation we're not aware of maybe some thyroid problem he's got, I don't know, I have no idea but I don't think that's true at that point in the beginning everything is fairly big and he stops and starts and by the end of it he's almost frozen he's almost squatted down frozen Mark and I are into comedy I collect old comedians autographs, Mark collects memorabilia from comedians and funny people and one of the things that we both noticed right off the bat was this look like a Ricky Gervais bit from something he's doing when he's lying either a live thing when he's live shows or when he's on one of his shows that he's done and also look like a couple of things on there from the black adder you can see that as well on him maybe that's just a British thing why he looks like the black adder when he's lying but that's one of those things that instantly stuck out that he looked like a little child lying to me at that point Chase, what do you got? Chase already went didn't go just quickly imagine that someone's reading a transcript to you and they're talking to another person they say you're at this party, you're sweating all of these people, you're drinking, there's an underage girl walking around in her underwear and you say or you hear the person say no, no, no, there's a problem with that and it's with the sweating and nothing else is denied nothing else is denied so there's no denial it's not answering the question he goes back to focusing on these minutia that are insignificant as if the underage people are not an issue but the sweating is somehow a crime that he needs to defend himself against and then he borrows authority he's borrowing authority from his military career kind of redirecting the story I was in the Falklands war and this lack of sweat ability is called anhydrosis it's usually most of the time it's medication reactions or some kind of genetic inheritance and extremely rare cases to my knowledge in my education this happens mostly in animals that if they are attacked the receptors are receiving too much of adrenaline or epinephrine and they start to downregulate it which is almost never the case from what I've researched, that's all I got she was very specific about that night she described dancing with you and you profusely sweating and that she went on to have bath possibly there's a slight problem with the sweating because I have a peculiar medical condition which is that I don't sweat or I didn't sweat at the time and that was oh is she yes I didn't sweat at the time because I had suffered what I would describe as an overdose of adrenaline in the Falklands war when I was shot at and I simply it was almost impossible for me to sweat and it's only because I have done a number of things in the recent past that I'm starting to be able to do that again so I'm afraid to say that there's a medical condition that says I didn't do it so therefore he froze he froze check it out oh my lord I'm suspicious no he's frozen so we wait on him let's go around and cut back to him so it's his turn alright so let's throw it around the room and we'll all wrap it up and we'll go with Mark chasing Greg Mark what do you got the biggest thing for me is that this is authority behavior baseline so he's as Greg might say on the griddle here this is a real worm on the griddle for him though you might see still some levels of authority compared to how he'd normally be totally outside the baseline that alone means some things going on here outside of the ordinary for him chase yeah this whole video is about a sales pitch and it's not about facts it's not about there's no certainty and there's no denials here that are confident or firm denials and anytime we're watching any video one of the first things I look at is that person's level of control over themselves in that interview that's the first thing I personally look for how in control of themselves are they and we see this is he is wildly out of control because he's wildly separated from his normal behavior Greg? yeah I think Mark he missed his chance to be credible by simply not saying that never happened that's all he had to say and move on to the next topic not try to over explain and you can see even when we are using this interview as a baseline the deviations we see from it when it gets a hot topic you can see the difference you see that chin protection that's pretty universal we talk about but then you see him using a little bit of chat and redirect and lots of other ways to avoid answering the question it surely looks like deception Scott what do you have? it's a great example of a bad attempt at lying because he goes through every cue you can just about nail in deception we're seeing him here and in our regular video I wonder what this is like two hours long we have a version of this go watch that you'll see everything in it some hot spots but it's a great example of someone who's being deceptive and we know he's being deceptive at this point and I think it's just a great example all around for that