 Aloha and welcome to Eyes on Hawaii on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host Carol Cox. Today my guest is Ms. Kathy Gogill, president and founder of Animal Rights Hawaii. We will be talking about the proposed administrative rule change regarding cats at harbors throughout Hawaii. And welcome back. The recent conversations we've had on cats and humane treatment of cats and other animals have been something that has been about us for a while. But there's a new problem now and we're calling this a, I guess a rally cry of an emergency to alert you the public of what is going on and educate you. The Department of Land and Natural Resources is proposing a bill, a change of the administrative rules and to make it specific, Chapter 13232. Feeding of colonies strays while life of federal animals prohibited, while on any property under the jurisdiction of the division of no person shall feed or deliberately introduce any food material substance or attractant directly to or in the vicinity of any colony stray while life of our feral. And so having said that, we'll touch on the law again this rule, new rule proposed and come back to it. But Kathy Gogill, thank you again for joining me. It's always a pleasure. My pleasure as well. Thank you. What is this? You want to introduce yourself first and I'm anxious to talk about this bill or this rule change, a proposed rules change. Yes. Well Carol, Animal Rights Hawaii has been advocating for animals since 1977 and we've covered a broad spectrum of issues from feral pigs to animals and laboratories to livestock. And feral cats and these have come up many, many times. About 20 years ago there was a proposal by the Department of Health to have a feeding ban throughout the state of Hawaii period on all state lands. And they went to administrative rule hearings and people who care about the cats, who want them to be taken care of and to be humanely cared for, we were able to prevail on in that case. But there is a constant movement by people who don't like to see feral cats, don't want to have them around. And we are very, very concerned about the progress that the invasive species committees have been making and this proposed rule would actually cause great hardship for cats. Harbors are a natural place for cats. Cats originally came to Hawaii on ships. The Vikings were believed to have spread cats throughout northern Europe during their explorations because cats kill rats and mice and they want them to have them on board. So almost every ship has a ship's cat. So that's how cats got to Hawaii and unfortunately they have thrived and we who care for the cats don't want to see huge quantities of cats. What we want is humane population control and that is through trap, neuter, return and manage. And this is quite possible to maintain that population or eliminate the presence of cats if we had a complete participation from government bodies, from humane bodies, nonprofits and the general public. If we work together as one, I've spoken with a number of cat caretakers and in that process, speaking with them, they're not claiming to want any cats in but the fact is that the cats are there. And so they want a humane treatment of these cats whether it be if you're going to starve them out because that's just what it will be. You will be starving them out which is inhumane and the population will continue to grow because let's face it. There are many projects that the state of Department of Land and Natural Resources can't manage and won't manage because it's not a priority, it's about money. My biggest concern here is that yes cats do prey on birds, yes cats do pose a problem to endangered birds or migratory birds, but the problem does not lie with the cats. The problem lies with the management and the administration of these programs and the failure to put money and put these things and participate and incorporate people like your organization. Instead what I've found and observed is that they demonize you or others that are out there addressing a problem that is upon us now. Not in theory, the reality is people dump, they abandon them, they get there, they escape, they're not neutered, they have babies and in Hawaii three possible breeding periods in a year because of the tropical setting. So to thrust this up on the public once again, it's always the wrong approach and we'll speak about, is it really about saving birds and animals, native species because if it is, I have a laundry list of things that they could be doing. If they're going to insist on killing and maiming and just, you know, euthanizing animals, let's start with the African canary who competes with other native birds that are found in the area that are escaped cage birds. Let's see an unaggressive effort to ban any imports of birds or citizens or anything into the state. Let's ban the pet shops from carrying certain animals. So I think it's disingenuous on the part of the DLNR to focus on one spot and then it's going to result in we, while sitting back doing nothing, we will condone the inhumane treatment of cats and other animals. Well, we, and I call myself we because I volunteer at a spay neuter clinic, are working constantly to try to keep the population under control. And I would like to see the government, the state government, Department of Agriculture should not allow the importation of intact dogs and cats without a breeder's permit or license. The people who make money from breeding these animals have fought for many years against having any kind of controls over their activity. They don't, a lot of them don't pay the excise taxes and they are contributing to the overpopulation. We also want to see the U.S. military become proactive when members, PCS out, it's very hard for them to take their pets with them. We think it should be a rule that the military should take care of transport of companion animals for those families as well. Well, it's like taking a shovel and trying to clear out the ocean. This little effort that they have, there's so many other things that I've pointed out. Let's go back to the Department of Land and Natural Resources whose proposal is just recently, give you an example. An officer was just promoted to a high level position, but that officer on Maui was involved in the illegal use of a helicopter to gather Hihiwai and other aquatic species to feed people at a wedding. And yet the current administrator, Suzanne Case, failed to do anything upon her arrival in this, which we communicated these things to her, did nothing. So I question the motivation. Is it just a ruse? We know it's not going to be effective because there's so many other things that are competing and consuming or taking on birds or whatever. And many of the birds that you find now are doves. They're not native birds, cardinals, Brazilian cardinals, northern cardinals. So I question the sincerity and the need for this rather than become humane in our approach and be more aggressive. And again, you've got to incorporate and quit demonizing the people that are doing something because of the people that are feeding. They're not going out there collecting cats and then introducing them to the ball and having their own little funny farm. It's not happening. No. The state legislature just felt this last year apportioned over four million dollars for the invasive species committees. And yet the people who are taking care of the feral cat populations, the colonies, are paying for veterinary care, for medications, for food, for treatments. They're not getting a penny of government money. And we're not asking for that. We are stakeholders and we want to be considered to be that. I'm tired of being called a little old cat lady because little old cat ladies can really get angry when we're pushed to the edge. Well, there are so many other angles to approach this and to reduce the threat of any alien species. We don't need to throw money at them to believe it or not. We need to do things such as this. The Department of Agriculture is a culprit in this whole scheme of things. They are the ones who determine which animals can come into the state and which cannot. Those people that come on the plane and they voluntarily sign off, but there's nobody there to greet them at the airports. They could be smuggling anything, as I've found in years gone by, where one person smuggled a cougar in, smuggled snakes in, in bags, alive snakes in both the planes. At one point you could buy scorpions and spiders and frogs and snakes in pet shops right here in Hawaii. So until the state adopts a stance that it really wants to protect endangered species and the native flora and fauna here, I would say there's something amiss here. There's something wrong and I think it's an abusive process. I agree and one of the subcommittees that advises the Board of Agriculture on whether specific animals could be allowed into the state is the owner of a very large pet shop here. So I think he may have a particular point of view that is not really in the interest of our state and of our native animals. I really hope that the public will become active on this. We have until August 5th to respond regarding the proposed administrative rule. And then it will go to the Board of Land and Natural Resources for hearing. And we haven't seen any of the testimony, we haven't seen anything. There has been no transparency on the part of the Department of the Land and Natural Resources or DOBOR. At the last hearing, one of the people who were giving testimony asked a question and was told, we're not here to answer questions. Wow, we've got so much to finish up with and talking about this, but the last day is August 5th to respond and you can respond by going to dlnr.harrevewe at hawaii.gov and offer your comments there. We will be taking a break and this is Eyes on Hawaii on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host Carol Cox, we will be right back. Welcome back to Eyes on Hawaii on Think Tech Hawaii. I'm your host Carol Cox. My guest is Ms. Kathy Gogell, President and Founder of Animal Rights Hawaii. We're talking about the proposed administrative rule change regarding cats at harbors throughout Hawaii. And Kathy, taking up where we left off, I can only think when I travel to the big island, I hear the Koki Frog. But much more numerous and the loud volume, but they eat bugs and they eat native species and what have you. And they compete for space from other native species. So here's the question, why don't we see any aggressive nature on that from the dlnr to ban the import of plants, potted plants or bromeliads or prohibit or create a list, but the state agriculture does not want to create a list because it would create a black list of people that have infestation of these frogs. And by the way, that is how it started. They knew where the frogs were. They knew which nursery the frogs existed, but they were reluctant to do anything because it would impact business. So why would we stand by and witness them and humanely treat and euthanize cats that human beings are responsible for putting there? Well, I have to say that I don't agree with you on Koki Frogs. And Koki's frogs are loved in their native Puerto Rico. The sound is beloved and I really think that they are not an agricultural pest and I think that killing them with citric acid is a horrible, horrible way to go. And I know that there are problems with animals like brown tree snakes that I would not like to see here coming into Hawaii, but I'd give the Koki Frogs. Well, we're not here to issue death warrants on anyone, but the point that I was trying to stress is that if the reality is from their yoke, from their view and their vantage points, they're saying their motivation for this is because it competes with native species, it consumes native species. So my question is that's only soliciting the questions. Why don't they be as aggressive not to say how beautiful the frog sings or what he is in other native habitat, but to emphasize there must be something wrong with this system and with this approach that we would be selective enough and be so aggressive in one aspect, but the other things it's rather telling that I question the veracity of the serious sincerity of this program. Well, I think it's another case that follows the money. The environmentalists, once they finish their education, have to get jobs and a lot of them end up in government and a lot of them go on living on grants and the grants are pretty large, pretty large. Oh, yeah. And so it becomes an industry, the killing and disposal of animals that people don't like have become an industry. And not just on the pest control level, but on the level of PhDs who spend a lot of time and a lot of taxpayer money up in the mountains. And we know that they are killing cats as well as other animals. They are not transparent. I have found dead cats in traps all over the state. And ultimately that's where we get around to the humane treatment of these animals. For example, I contribute to an article in Honolulu Weekly in one time called Health or Shelter. And just the whole thing is out of kilt because on one hand the city and county of Honolulu has a program in sanctions trapped new to release. And how it's sanctioned is that if you get a cat and you trap it and you participate in the TNR program, you get a microchip. It's microchip to you. You become the quote owner of it. So therefore if it is trapped it is returned. That is supposed to be the humane way of through attrition and eliminating the population or reducing the population of cats. So why then are they going to allow this law? It's going to conflict or contradict what is already written. How can they just automatically, they're not saying we're opposed to TNR. They're saying don't feed them, which means the TNR program you're going to starve it to death. And for them to require cruelty like that makes them in violation of the state cruelty statute. So it's a conundrum. And I just don't see how this, they may be trying to ram it down our throats, but it's wrong. And we need, we have a problem. We need to seek a humane alternative to killing. On a scale of one to ten, how transparent do you think the DLNR, the Department of Land and Natural Resources has been with this effort? Oh, maybe a one. We haven't seen anything. And you won't be privy to the testimonies or yet are you? No. The public is not of it. And then so the process is going to be they are going to sit and hold the hearings as they have already. They're going to take that information with and then not share the results of the meetings or the testimonies with people like yourself or me or other interested parties. And then go ahead and go to the land board, the Department of Land and Natural Resources, and leave it up to them to vote for this? Yes, precisely. And we will have a six days notice when it is planned. And hopefully we can get a hold of the agenda and the submittal in a timely manner. The government agencies have a long history of trying to complete what they want to do without too much input from outsiders because it's so inconvenient for them. So with the Open Meetings Law, with the Sunshine Law, Uniform Information Practices Act, we do have supposed access, but there are many times that things do not get posted in a timely manner. I have a concern that in an observation and maybe Suzanne Case, if she would ever lend herself to communicating or conversing with me on this show, I'd invite her. And that is, I believe that the board is one-sided. It's influenced by what she's formulated Nature Conservancy. Yes. There's another member on the board and nothing to impugn their integrity, but as a public body, I have concerns with that and how this is being introduced to the public. I won't call it force-fed. It's more of a sheepish way of feeding the people tidbits and then later return to the table and say, well, here's the finished product. I will not do this. And the fines, $50 or $1,000, or in prison. That's cruel and inhumane in itself to a person. You just abruptly sever all relationships with this practice that you've been doing. Well, I have been upset for a very long time with the lack of transparency by both the Board of Land and Natural Resources and the Board of Agriculture, which are the two major agencies that I deal with in advocating for animals. And that goes to the larger issue of open government and participation of the public. It's very hard to participate in government unless you really try. Things are not just put out there. Phone calls, phone calls, phone calls. Who are you? Who do you represent? That what is supposed to be public information, they want to know who you are and why you want to know this information. I have a question for you. Sorry to disturb you. Have you been contacted or any outreach on the part of DLNR, Suzanne Case or anyone? You being animal rights Hawaii, you've been quite active in the community here for years as you've shown us. Have you had any outreach from that entity to speak with you, ask you your consideration, your membership or anything? No, not a one. So are you an enemy of the state or what? Well, when people ask, when I call and ask a question, they say, well, who are you with? And I say, well, I'm just a taxpayer and that should be enough. Right, or a concerned citizen because lack of transparency, the inhumane. Our government should not be involved in any act that is inhumane and any act that is conflicting with something that's in place that resembles humane treatment of animals or anything. Or people. But then I'm afraid to say currently what we see now with the way we heard human beings, the homeless people and the unfortunate ones, it bothered me. So I'm thinking we're dealing with a different entity now that going to rely on the cruel and unusual practices of starving people, the cats to death. And then that brings on big questions, diseases. And I'm not offering this as a defense or to try and distort the truth. The reality is I've been out there on the ground. I know I'm a conservationist. I'm an environmentalist and I just don't, I'm not the party, the groupie conservationist. I have the same concerns. So we've got about one minute left and anything in closing? Well, I hope that people will start to participate in the process of government. Administrative rules have to go to public hearings and they're held on all the islands and it is a way for the public to get involved. And when legislative session starts up in the beginning of next year, people should go to their, they have a room on the fourth floor, public access room. Where you can learn how to participate in government. And I think that's a really good way to go. Well, Kathy Gogell, thank you for joining me on Hawaii Think Tech and Eyes on Hawaii. I appreciate it. And for you, the viewers out there, please write this address down. D-L-N-R dot H-A-R-R-E-V-I-E-W at Hawaii.gov. And offer your comments and if you care to ask the government to hold off on this and do not pass such a rule change or approve it, that will be good for you and good for us. So it'll make us all feel good. And that's about it. If you're interested in getting on our mailing list, go to ThinkTechHawaii.com. Thank you for joining me today on Eyes on Hawaii on ThinkTechHawaii. Thanks to Jay Fidel, our executive director, our technical support team, Robert McClain, Ray Sangolan, and Nick Sexton. I'll see you again in two weeks. I'm Carol Cox, Aloha.