 To you and thank you for joining us on WAI 254, my name is Patricia Muriuki, and tonight we talk about gender roles and society. Our society has a set of ideas about how we expect man and women to dress, behave and present themselves. Gender roles in society means how we expect them to act, speak, dress, groom and conduct ourselves best upon our assigned sex. картfa siga ou je ukulama kwa jagam How do we create in shared responsibility without probably overstepping? How do we bring in the men to feel that probably they can help us in certain responsibilities that we have to do as women? And also really try to address the big elephant, the society. Because most of the times in every conversation we try to hear people say the society things the society says. And tonight we really address the society as far as gender roles are concerned. And to help us talk about this we have Emma Monguta who is the founder of Amanda Foundation. We also have Gideon Makumi who is a youth mentor and human resource manager at Bethel Network. Talk to us across our social media platforms. That is at Y254 channel you can also reach me at Patricia Murioki. Thank you very much for finding the time to be here with us. I can see Gideon it's been a minute since I last had you on the show. I can see that you're doing well. And the first question I would like us to address is we've talked about roles and duties are changing. We've seen that certain things that men were, our time as responsibilities that men were supposed to do, women cannot even do them. So what is your feel about these as society changes and we still have gender roles? Let us start by me getting your opinion. How do you really feel about this? Thank you Patricia. You're welcome. I think first and foremost gender roles it's a socialization process. It is something that we pick, habits that we pick and we can as well drop. What is happening and what I feel about it is that nowadays unlike before where our parents were very very keen on socializing us as we grew things have really changed. We are picking things from the social media, we are picking things from television. It's no longer the responsibility of parents to show their children how they are supposed to grow. So we are learning by ourselves. So what that does especially to men, I think when we look at the society and they stand to be corrected, the boy child is a big problem. That's why now when it comes as this boy grows with very little empowerment of any, we are growing seeing a boy who doesn't even know what they are supposed to do. Who doesn't even know who being a man is. It has resulted to a weaker man and a very empowered woman in our society. So there is a big problem and I think it begins at childhood and it manifests in adulthood. We have a weaker set of men, a generation that has very weak men and very empowered women. There is no problem with having empowered women but then not at the cost of having weak boys. So even as we put in efforts to empower the girl child, let's also empower the boy child. Because if you get so empowered, for example Patricia, and the guy who marry is not equally empowered, right there there will be a problem which will result to gender roles that are not correct. So let's empower both for those gender roles to be done properly and for men to take their rightful position and women to take their rightful position. Okay, Emma, what is your thought about what the same question that Gideon was responding to. We have all these things changing and now you can't really say that the woman is expecting to just be at home and be a maker and be a wife and a mother and all that. What is your thought about everything that is happening currently? Okay, so thank you for having me here again. You're welcome. So my thought about this is society is changing. We are not in a century where men used to go and hunt, women were gatherers and used to stay at home. So a lot has changed, women go to work, subjects that were considered for the male generation, now adult careers are now being undertaken by women. So what I feel is society needs to change and these roles have really evolved and it's high time that we teach the young boys growing up that just because you are a man or just because you are a female in line with the gender does not mean you cannot fit in both sides. It's high time we learnt that gender roles are not specific to a certain gender. I mean with times changing we need to do better. Okay. So some of the things that people really expect, we have certain things that when I sit down here as Patricia and I'm thinking about getting married, there are certain things I already have in my mind and this is, I can say society has put them in my mind that my husband is supposed to do this and all that. Gid, at what point probably did you sit down with your partner and have the gender role conversation? At what point did you ask each other, so who does what? Are we going to live with what we've had people talk about? Do we get to create something that gets to work for us? What point did you have that conversation and what was really the content of the conversation that stands out from what society expects of us? Okay. What I believe is that marriages, we don't have like set standards of how a marriage should work. We don't have like guidelines of you're supposed to do ABCD. I believe so much in a marriage that is customised to fit your needs as a two partners. Because if we come in with the societal expectations, then you're going to have it wrong. Because everyone, this is what your social expects. This is what your mother, your uncles, everyone who come telling you as a man, this is how you're supposed to behave. As a woman, this is how you're supposed to treat your man. Before me I believe in a situation where we agree, these are your strengths, these are my strengths, these are your weaknesses, these are my weaknesses. How do we bring in this together and get that thing which we in our own rights is perfect? Perfection should not be defined from outside. Perfection should not be defined from what the society thinks is right. Perfection is between the two of us. This works for us. It doesn't necessarily have to work for another couple. This would work for in our context. It doesn't have to work in another context. Why? Because all of us we have different personalities, we have different goals, we have different set of visions. I mean it's something that is unique to the two of you. So you decide what you want to have and how you want to have it. Forget about what the society thinks and if you are to satisfy the society. For how long do you manage to do it? I don't think you even manage a minute. So live by your own set standards and what makes you happy is what really counts. Not what makes your neighbor or even your parents. And I'm sorry to the parents who are watching, not even your parents. I really like what you've said and I like what you've said that this perfection that you try to look for, don't look for it outside. Sit down with your partner. I hope that you get to understand you don't need to bring in people outside as even if it's your mum or your dad or whatever. You don't have to bring outsiders in your relationships or in your marriage. Get advice but certain things have limits. Emma, what do you think is the best time probably for women watching us tonight or who are going to watch this interview later? When is the best time for them to have the gender roles conversation and what are they supposed to address? And also talk about how do they do it the right way? Not feeling like oh you have to do this and all that. And balancing also that you don't have expectation because Kapo A do these together that you expect you and your spouse or partner are going to do the same thing. The right time for a couple to have the gender role conversation is when they decide that they want to get to the next step. So when the relationship has gone some mile then that is the time to have that conversation. And it should be earlier on so then you know because if you're going to spend the rest of your life or a considerable amount of your lifetime with this person. I think it's important to have that conversation. And also the second question you asked was how? You don't look at Kapo A and want whatever works for Kapo A to work for you. How do you have that conversation without bringing in things that are working for others and probably they may not work for you? Look at the two of you, look at the situation the two of you are in. Look at your schedules, look at how best you will customize both your schedule and what works for the two of you. We cannot, we live in a place or when you're with someone it is so hard to not have expectations. You even have expectations from your own parents, from your own employers and all that. What expectations did you have in your spouse? Let us talk about those expectations. So are we now trying to see are they normal? What can we do to make sure that probably we are having, because you see down index. I was looking as I was doing research on this topic, someone was like I expected my partner to be the one who takes out the trash. I expected him to be the one who takes the car to the garage and all that. So what expectations did you have? Let me put it as an African man. Well unfortunately in the African context and from time immemorial there are those things that remember the uncles you talked about. There are those things you are told that as a man you are not supposed to do this. I will not get to the specifics of my case. However there are things that I had in mind which now after you get into marriage you realize they are not real, they are not realistic. As a man I think it is not, it doesn't make you weaker to pick a plate from the table to the kitchen. You go wash your hands there. It doesn't make you weaker if the baby is crying there and you decide what you want. Would you change a diaper Gideon? A diaper maybe not. But not because I am a man. It's more because of maybe how I feel or maybe what it will imply. But it will help feed the baby. It could help, I don't mind. But I think most of the things we come into marriages with and I have not stayed in marriage for long to relatively talk about it. But I think from experience and being that even at campus I did gender and development studies I think there are those things which are defined to be manly which in reality they are not. And I am sorry to the fellow men who are watching but some of the most of these things are oppressive to the women. And I think it comes a time when you realize that this is your helper. And what does a helper do? They help you do what you are already doing or what you are supposed to do. Whereas there are those expected roles for a man, the God-given roles for a man which we call LPP which is leadership, providing and protecting. Again it doesn't mean that you can't wash the dishes. And I know my wife is watching and maybe I have not washed dishes for a long time. But it doesn't make me weak if I did that. It doesn't make her stronger than I am. And today she says, today I am the one taking care of the shopping. Today, how about this month if I pay rent? I mean it doesn't make me weak and make her stronger just because there are those adjustments that we have made. So there are things that I can do which she cannot. Then she can do which I cannot. But I don't think they are custom stones. It's flexibility and goes back to that. I think we need to give our expectations very clearly from the word go and she said at the point when you are dating because you don't want to come and get surprised when you are in marriage and you are learning this is not the guy I knew. This is not the lady that I knew. Align those expectations early enough so that you don't get disappointed. Before we get to talk about shared responsibility something that Gideon touched on Emma, do you feel like we have so much exaggerated expectations on women especially now looking at a space whereby women are breaking glass ceilings. Women are also going to work. They will come home tired and all that but we still expect them to come home and do the dishes. Some will even feel like no, you have a house manager but as a woman do 1, 2, 3, 4. Are we putting so much expectation on our women? Yes, my answer to that is yes. It's time we be realistic about what women can do and customise it to the now. So a woman wakes up in the morning she's expected to probably dress the babies do a few household chores here and there still dress up and leave the house in time to be at work. We forgot to prepare the husband because he has to. He has to iron his clothes and brush his shoes prepare breakfast for both of them and still get to work and get to perform. I feel it's too much pressure that's the highest standard to hold a woman and normally when a marriage fails or something goes wrong they normally say the woman failed. So I feel it's too much pressure on the woman because both of you come home tired but then the man expects because you are the woman you have to serve me. Exactly. And I was working. So Gideon, do you feel or not do justice if I don't ask do you also feel like we have a lot of expectations for men? Are we pushing them to a certain corner where you're supposed to do this as a man or is it a way women can also try to create a balance and help the boy child in creating this perfect relationship and this perfect marriage as far as gender roles are concerned? The truth of the matter is that there is pressure from both ends and for men especially and I mentioned one of the expectations is that they're supposed to provide and there is a common cliché that in a house as a man if I have five hundred book and my wife has five thousand that house there is only five hundred shillings. Why? Yes. Why because I'm a man I'm the one who is supposed to provide. I think most of us men are running into depression because sometimes even your wife is earning more than you do say your boyfriend your girlfriend is earning even more than you do and she will still expect you to she will still ask you for money for say to do my hair I didn't money to buy a suit did you see the new dress in town have you seen the new kimono those things will still come up okay yet this guy might be even in a fix so I think especially in that financial bit of it men expected to do so much that is one area that needs to be corrected I think it doesn't hurt if we agree to help one another because sometimes even a husband will get sick what are you supposed to do as a wife would you just stay there and wait for them to get well there now I mean it's very absurd that it's taken that it's just the responsibility of a man to provide and I'm not saying men should abscond that responsibility in fact I feel very bad if I didn't provide okay I wish I remembered but we don't have to abscond the responsibility but at the same time the ladies can still help okay so that now brings us to the point where we get to talk about shared responsibility how do we get to our house has me and partner and sit down and try to see how now can we do these things because at the end of the day it's the two of you and for that relationship and for that marriage to work it takes the two of you so Emma how can now people couples in relationships and in marriages be able to really understand what shared responsibility is without having to take advantage of the other spouse that's a very good question and as he has already pointed out the men feel like the ladies should chip in and he has a very valid point what happens then God forbid when your husband is incapacitated and they are not going to work so shared responsibility here should be two way if a man expects you to chip in the bills as a man he should also try and help out in the house and remember when a couple has children those children learn by what they see so then we train what are we showing those children growing up what are we trying to model to them and then science says that when two parents are happy and when the father also helps actively bringing up children and helping in the house the mother is less stressed and they bring up very healthy and happy children and then I think it's time that we accepted that times have changed and that women are working now and women are taking up more responsibility according to there's a study that was carried and people asked what do you think when it comes to marriage what is the percentage of what women give vis-a-vis what men give and it was shocking women give 85% 15% into the marriage and that should set us thinking and see what is it that we are doing wrong and what is it that we could do better for a better society now having touched on all that the expectations how to have conversations about shared responsibility in a very healthy manner without oppressing the other partner how now do we change the mindset because as we were starting I talked about society and I even have conversations with myself and I say I wish that society was a person that I could go and ask questions rather than just sit here and talk about society and there's really no one to address when you talk about this so now how do we change the mindset of people especially probably our men and make them understand that times are changing how do we now start to sit down together and try to understand that when we have a good unit then we have to help each other we have to support each other and I was telling Emma as we were starting that sometimes you find a man who probably helps the wife do the dishes will not come and talk about it openly and say I help out unless he is sure his friends do that because he is scared that society will start being like hey buddha, buna una fanyanga iso vitu so Gidon how can we break this mindset about what that people have I think it has to start from where we lost it and that point is when we empowered the women more than we empowered the boys because with the rise of feminism there's radical feminism where they believe what a woman can do what a woman can do better and it's at that point that I ask if that can happen if as a man I can say for example how about you just take care of everything else I mean some of these things they are not realistic we have our strength as men we have you have your strength as women let's get to a place where we understand that this is my place this is your place and we begin telling men whatever weakness if you are not even able to do a particular thing we also begin telling this young man this boy that I don't need to see a man as my enemy as we grow up just because she is doing better than I am it's okay for her to excel in life I can learn from her because we lost it when we started telling the women that go out there and excel, beat the men I don't think that's the conversation you're supposed to have it is supposed to be what can we do all of us as you empower this guy, empower this boy so that they are going in and we are complimenting each other as opposed to making it look like it's competition making it look like it's sort of an enmity between these two genders and let's also make men understand as much as that's not how we've been socialized I have feelings it's okay to even express those feelings I have fears it's okay to express those fears because why why men, why the percentage the greatest percentage of people suffering from depression in our men it's because we want to keep it inside of us because we look weak so I think if we can pick that conversation from where we lost direction and bring it back to course I think it would be better right from primary let's show this man this young boy they are going to become a man this is what the society expects but this is how the reality looks like on ground let's tell the girl the same then as they grow they are able to know that it is okay to be the way I am we can have that candid conversation with my partner that this is how we will make ours work it is not how the society said it should work final comments I am giving each one of you 30 seconds to patinshut about these to people who are watching us at home what is it that you would really like what is it that you would like to tell them that we will make everything that we have talked about today stand out so my patinshut is this to recognize that when we are we need to recognize when we are part of the problem and you spoke of the glass ceiling it exists because we put it there and if we want to be part of the solution what are no longer enough and as my friend here said that we need to fix what the problem is feminism and I don't know how it's modeled the problem starts with family so I would like to read a quote for you I would like really like the world of humanity is possessed by two wings and the male and the female so as these two wings are not equivalent in strength the bud will not fly so instead of teaching our boys to be strong and brave and to be some type of way because they are male and teaching our women to look pretty and stuff we can teach them to be better humans and to tap into their hearts to be sensitive emotional intelligent and because it makes him more of a man okay so let us wide up there because time is not on our side what I would say is that as Gedeon has said as we continue to empower the girls in the society let us also not forget the boys and also learn to create a very good and very well balanced so that we have to create a revolution for both the female and the male males that have very much empowered and know what decision it is that they have to make thank you very much for being with us my name is Patricia Morioki drive yourselves a very good night