 Okay ladies and gentlemen we come to the next lecture of this morning and it gives me great pleasure to introduce to you Dennis O'Brien who is a member of the South Society of Australian Genealogists and administrator of the O'Brien surname project. Dennis will be talking to us about surname versus DNA results and what they mean and what they don't mean and then DNA terms who are the O'Brien's. We'll be talking about the O'Brien's and the relationship with the Dalgosh and also SNP markers versus SCO markers and what you can learn from each kind and then after Dennis's presentation we have the pleasure of being joined by the O'Brien, Connor, 18th Baron Inchiquin, Prince of Tholmond who will be joining us for a question and answer session at the end of his presentation. So can I ask you to give a warm-up to both the O'Brien and Dennis O'Brien. Thank you Morris. It's a great pleasure to be here today. You'll have to excuse my accent a little bit you know Australians have picked up this crazy English Irish combination of accents. I've been the administrator of the DNA project for about eight years now and it's one of those things that I didn't plan for, didn't particularly seek and then sort of just rolled into but I've got to tell you it's brought me great enjoyment, pleasure and it's sort of a role where you get to help people and I think that's something apart from my own research of course it's very very interesting. I just want to cover as Morris has already said what's in a surname, why join your surname project, some stats about our project. Who are the O'Brien's? This has been one of the big question marks over a period of time. STRs, SNPs and a little bit about maybe what's next and I'm going to keep my arm of time. So I suppose that's the thing and it's the what's in a surname that started all this. If you have a look at the O'Brien project there's actually not a lot of O'Brien's there. It's not a majority. O'Brien is a name that has changed over many many years. O'Brien's spelled it various ways. The Americans are amazing the way they can get a word to change its spelling and they're not the only ones. The Australians have done pretty well and there's some even strange ones where people have just turned up with a name and you think that can't be a related name to the O'Brien's but actually it turns out it is. So it's a case of what are you looking for when you join us and you know it's your family. A surname is your family. It belongs to something. If you're a Smith, a Jones or an O'Brien or a Gleason whatever you are it has something and means something to you. For some of us and you've got to understand that most of the people as have been said before who are in this DNA family where from the colonies we left we left in the 1700s and the 1800s or probably in the early part of the 1900s and most of us don't have any direct connection. Oh I always knew from the time I was born that I was from an Irish Catholic family that was pretty brought into plain view very early in the Middle East but not a lot of other things but to be Irish in Australia meant something. Sometimes not always the best but it meant something and it'd be the same in America and many other countries. So it was a cultural homeland. Historical connections. You know I live in a country where in fact from a DNA point of view the oldest humans on Earth live. Australian Aboriginal has been there give or take 50,000 years. I don't think anyone else can beat that record. So we know about culture but we as Europeans we've only been there since the very very late 1700s. The Irish were on the very first ship that arrived so they've certainly been there from the beginning but that was only in the 1780s. So we don't have a culture and most of our culture is related to the way we're brought up our religion our education and it's you know St Patrick's Day is as big a ceremony in Australia as it is in New York or as it is here. We tie back into our culture and of course an identity. We all want to be someone. We all want to belong to someone and I find that most of the people who join our surname project are looking for an answer but when you really get down to the why and say what are you trying to do a lot of it comes down to these little points here that they're trying to find a family connection. They have a cultural connection that's pretty easy and they're looking for historical connections. Which part of Ireland they come from. Is there any interesting people in the family tree. I mean we all would like to be relatives of Kings, Queens or princes or someone wealthy. I mean wealthy is better than any of the other three but the point is that we'd like you know we're looking for that aren't we. I mean that's what it's all about and you know so identity is something that we put a lot and that's more from our point of view than probably the Irish point of view. The Irish know who they are. They know where they come from. Well they think they do but what we don't. Where the where the outside is and we're trying to come back. So why did you join a programmer sorry a surname project. Well there's a lot of reasons for it. I think most people join to look for a missing link. You could be that you're a small family and you've got a few aunts and uncles and you can get a bit of an idea but you're looking for something else. It could be that you're on your own and you know very little about your family or its background but and you're looking for the missing link. You're looking to see oh look where Irish where Scottish where English. But then you're trying to find out and define that. Sometimes it's to prove a connection. I've been collecting data since I was 16 so it's 51 years ago I started this exercise and I knew roughly about my family and media family particularly my paternal family the overrides because Irish Catholics being what they are they mixed a lot in that period of time and right up until the 1980s we would you know big family meetings weddings hatches matches and dispatches we call it and you always got together and you met your aunts your uncles your cousins whatever. So that wasn't a problem and I had that all down on paper in the old days but there were missing connections. We had other people who were saying oh but we're cousins. You say oh how. And then I came up to Ireland in 2001 and I went to where my family came from and they said yeah but have you met the other family next door the O'Brien's and the other town man and they were as big as us if not bigger and I thought oh no we didn't know anything about you guys but I finally worked it all out but there's no paper the 1820s give or take much before then you're not going to find anything. It's a mystery. So you've got to look for a connection. That was my introduction in fact my father and mother and I visited Conor's house in 2005 and Conor was telling us about this DNA and we went my dad and I went back and we thought oh that sounds a new interesting way maybe we can find something and I got involved in doing that and I was looking for a missing link. I want to find out these cousins how do they meet. We'll talk about that a little later. Occasionally you're trying to find out who you really are. I have a lot of members in the O'Brien whose name is not O'Brien or anything even remotely related to O'Brien but they don't know who they are but when they do the DNA they are an O'Brien. We have a person in America named Morrissey. Now the Morrissey's were in various parts of Ireland they're particularly out in the West and not unusual. They've been in America for I think it was about 180 200 years. DNA's shown they aren't Morrissey's. They're O'Brien's without any doubt in the world very closely linked to the main O'Brien family. How did they get the name Morrissey? Why was it changed? This is what some people are starting to ask the question so there can be an idea. So being an O'Brien one of the things when we started this program and project was let's see who's not. We are very eclectic. As far as we're concerned if you had the name O'Brien or any related name in any spelling form and you think you're an O'Brien we're happy to have you in the clan. You're an O'Brien. Connor insists on that. You're an O'Brien you're an O'Brien. So we look at two different things as the O'Brien as far as the name goes and then the O'Brien as far as the DNA goes and those things often show up a little different angles. Of course a lot of us would love a royal connection wouldn't we? I mean that's what it's sometimes a little bit about and that's one of the things that people try and look at and they say oh but hold on my father my great-grandfather he came from Clare and he swears that they were you know they used to be at Dramaland and they were part of the original O'Brien family and so oh fair enough and you go through the test sometimes the end result disproves the family's history but that's all right there's still O'Brien's and we still welcome into the into our clan and into our project. There is no permission needed to join our project I know some projects have permission required as far as I'm concerned if you want to nominate joining the O'Brien's DNA please you're welcome I don't you know whatever I might look to your name and think well I want to buy but sometimes when the markets come through and later the simps come through it becomes obvious what but as I said we welcome anybody. Our project started on the 21st of October 2004 so it was its birthday yesterday and it was probably in the early stages of these projects it was started by a gentleman named Mick O'Brien or Mike O'Brien over in America he got an interest in that it came out of some other conversations and it started small I think you know it took a while to get to 20 members and then a while to get to 30 but now we have about 510 members in the surname project we have 403 males why tests done not necessarily buy the male it's more like sometimes we get it from the sister or the mother or somebody else a cousin whose female obviously and wants a male connection but the why test so we have 403 of those we have 105 different haplogroups since different identifications so it's a very wide grouping the O'Brien's we have 50 sorry 34 members so far who have done the big why that's quite good for us we've got I think another half dozen or so that are looking at it but it's expensive and I'll talk a bit about that later but that's something we're trying to encourage and we have a lot of variations of spellings as well as non-related surnames at all as I said the names that just you wouldn't even you wonder how they even be right sometimes surprisingly they are so these are the sort of people that join our group so in DNA terms who's an O'Brien or as I would call them a O'Brien or a related surnames the way I had it up well of course there's those who are Delcache we all know the clan we know it's history it's significance in Ireland history they're members of the L226 Dennis Wright talked about it yesterday and that's a significant grouping within our O'Brien's there's some who are now I believe they caught the M222 the Northwest Irish lowland Scotts variety it's an interesting name and they've grouped themselves as different people over time but they are slightly related but quite distant from Delcache but they have a very early part in the Irish history there's a very small group that are Irish type 2 I'll be honest I'm not up too much on the Irish type 2 but there is the very small group of O'Brien's or related surnames who have identified with that and there's a rather large group that have nothing to do with the traditional R1 or R1B groupings but some are Scandinavian yeah and the Vikings came here they probably did leave a few children around the place there's many others that Middle Eastern there's a whole range of people at Romans Talents you know the whole group Mediterranean so there's people there so we are very wide in our sampling and it just goes to show you the name O'Brien well how did you get that name or a related name and this is discussed before and I know it'll be discussed later obviously people through political allegiance or some other connection with one of the powerful families at the time have adopted the name and all there's been some other changes that have occurred or maybe there's just been some lying on birth certificates which does happen occasionally membership breakdown out of 305 members with an O'Brien related surname so I had 510 I've got 400 on the Y 305 of them have an O'Brien related surname 92 of them at this stage are M269 and we're trying to get them to further test I have 51 who were the same but they've got a variant surname so 92 O'Brien 51 six of them belong to the group U106 six are still sitting at 311 very early we it's very hard people spend money people do investment they don't get what they want out of it and it's very hard to encourage them to spend more money sadly a few of these are no longer with us and I'll talk about that a little later that's a problem that's I think we're gonna have to face up to do 19 are still sitting at L22 sorry L21 which is a long time ago but they're not L226 and they're not M22 to 10 M22 to 52 L226 18 have now identified with FGC 5659 and you are now starting to get into modern history at this level we believe Dennis Wright and I believe that this is starting to get around the Brian Baroo area probably just before but it's you suddenly into some sort of notion of a historical content but 41 have non R1B snips no words there could be eyes very prevalent M and E I think the other one but there's quite a few ranges in there so and that's represented 13.5 percent but they still call themselves O'Brien and so they should we're happy with that but from a DNA point of view they've probably got very interesting histories we need to get into that and try and find more. O'Brien's and the Delcache well around 25% of our members appear to have a relationship with this clan. 28 haven't gone past the M269 but we know from the SDR markers that's what they are we're pretty confident with that but we we're asking them to further test 15 have not tested below L226 yet and we're trying to get them to do that the present moment five this 5660 there's a couple of a few others three a 5628 and you sorry don't have my mistake there are problems it's 11 a 5628 and I'm at this stage we think that's Brian Baroo snip we're not quite sure but we think if we can dig him up and I'm thinking I'm just going to talk about that later you can't but if we could dig him up we have a feeling that's what you might find and seven a YFS 231286 nice long number but that one's very interesting because we do know who that is that is the official line currently of the O'Brien's the Thornman O'Brien's, Dermall and O'Brien's whatever you want to call them it's the official line and I'll talk a little more about that shortly Sips versus STRs previous speaker probably stole my fund a little bit about that and that's fair enough look we'll start with 12 markers you know if you get a Y12 markers you're going to be related to I don't know but a very wide proportion of Europeans you start going into 27 35 I don't even know if they offer 2070 more I think it's now straight to 35 some people 37 and then you go to 67 and then if you really want to if you've got a nice big fat wallet you can go to 111 and that's going to start narrowing you down and that's what is happening but even then it's not necessarily going to link you up with someone the new SNPs which are starting to come out and we're really getting them tested is starting to identify people in a much better way and in fact that has been the key for us to be able to identify where the various O'Brien's fit together or the L226 grouping as a total there's a lot of cooperation between the L226 group ran by Dennis Wright and the O'Brien's for obvious reasons and we we're pushing our members as much as we can to try and identify them and the new pack that's just a sim pack that was released by FT DNA recently mind the way four months later than they said it would be but recently has we're hoping will give us a lot more information we were hoping we would have had that information now but we'll have to wait till next year's presentation so within our project we're starting to place more emphasis on the SNPs then look at the STRs and say oh wait a minute if you're in a common SNP group if you're FGC or a YFS now look at your markers and see if we can actually put you into some sort too and that's sort of what was talked about them by the previous speaker in that you know getting your trees or the DNA trees is something that we're trying to work on a lot I pulled an example and I apologize it looks like it's coming up quite well it's a little Excel table I put together and I wanted to do this because I want you to show that what's happening up until quite recent times and 36 we knew about it and for a long time that was the end of the show we said oh great we've got a little to do six this is starting to identify there and there were many many people hundreds of people in that as new tests come on particularly big white we became aware that there were other SNPs personal steps many of them started off then we'd say oh hold on someone says other people have got these steps so they became identifiable as part of a group and we've worked them down the tree and as I said without unfortunately absolute proof that we're going to be working on that soon we think this is probably the timeline of King Brian Baroo and then you move them down and then we got to this new peer and this I talked about before it's common to unrange your people and we thought well that's very interesting what does it mean and how's that going to be put together so when we were doing this we tested even more and we found three very interesting groups one we knew of but three interesting the first one was this family here by 4092 evidence which shows that somewhere between 131500 a line of the O'Brien's departed from the main O'Brien's they could have been the fourth son of the fourth son and by then you certainly they get a title and you probably don't get any land so you're pushed out into a farm and wish luck and that was there showing the gate and that was the end of that so this group here split quite early they common to this but they later than this this is a family from Limerick having to perish they've been there somewhere between 200 and 300 years and they've worked as farmers rule people nothing fancy in their life they were renters not landowners and some even got kicked off the land when the English landlord came around the late 1800s so a general example of an Irish family they've got some unique str results particularly up this end with this one 4040 they are in fact the only L2 to six people who have that particular str and that was identifiable fairly easily as it turns out we know who they are I'm one of them my father's one of them a third cousin in Australia is one of them and a fourth cousin in Florida is one of them so we've got a nice little grouping mix who we know who each other are so we're able to identify that family so that was for me very interesting expanded well beyond what I was looking for but took a while to get there this gentleman's interesting he's even later and he's on his own this group dad he's on his own and he's a gentleman lives in Sydney descended of a conflict that's like royalty in Australia I can't tell you descended of a convict he has he thought he was from England he'd been doing a bit of work the DNA came in and I contact him and said I am I think you're not just from England I think you're actually from Ireland because there's no doubt he's got this you're no Brian his name is Brian as it turns out but I said you're no Brian and he's done a lot of work and he's still in research at this moment but it could be that he's from the Viscount Clare O'Brien's the line became extinct but we found a very young boy living in England parents have died and he was being brought up by the in-laws and it's highly probable that that's where his family's come from and we're working on that a little bit earlier but it's looking good so there's enough family and then of course we have another group that sort of we know of historically FTC 13418 because that's Saccona's line and it was supported by another strange gentleman Tasman O'Brien who's great-great-great-grandfather was William Smith O'Brien of quite a fame in Ireland politically and otherwise and so he kindly had the big why Connoisseur's big why Tasman's had the big why and we've now conclude so we're starting this is what we're hoping over the next year two years three years we'll be filling in all these plants all of these trees will be really expanding enormously and some people are going to find that they're post-brown brew some people find their pre-brown brew but that's all right we'll start to put them together we'll be making sense out of it so this is the sort of work I'm spending a lot more time on doing at the present moment it's not perfect science some of it is a little bit of guesswork but we're getting there and we think that as the refinements come through and as people get more tested one of the things with our 226 which is interesting and I don't understand that you mentioned yesterday but to my knowledge we it's we at this stage haven't really found a non-Irish of descent a European I suppose a long-term so I mean the theory would be that at some stage mr. alto 26 should descend from somebody in Europe that's the theory and maybe mr. alto 26 which Dennis thinks was around two and a half three thousand years ago must have been should have been either European but it looks like at this stage he may have just been an Irishman we don't know yet we'll find that out as time goes on as it was meant before that we've got France and Spain those areas have not really got into the DNA secrecy at this stage so where's it leave us well our clan is clan we're quite happy to have people who believe their members of the clan the DNA is not to us that important what we want to do is provide so so there's the O'Brien clan and then on top of that if you want to know a bit more and put yourself in your group and you know you're not descended Brian Brewer but you descend from some other Irish significant figure or a Viking significant figure or something else well that's all right you still know Brian and it allows you to identify with the others and the interconnections and the interrelationships I suppose what DNA research really does it advances you down so that you can narrow your name so on I Brian a Bryant a Bryant a whole range of and then you can start narrowing it down and start saying oh how does that group fit in with others and that's what we're I think the benefit for a surname the DNA research is going to do is is to really put us in the more historic groupings from what we've done in just the last few years or since 2004 against what we expect the end is almost unforeseeable because DNA has changed it's technology is changing we're moving now into a whole new range of possibilities who knows I think it was Morris earlier said maybe when the babies born you will be others do a quick on the hill and find out who it is where it's from I don't know if mum and dad might be happy with that information but you will you'll certainly know I'm sure there'll be confidential causes coming in there I can just say that however as far as we're concerned O'Brien is an O'Brien now if you happen to be out 36 that's good if you happen to be post Brian Bruce DNA or a snip that's even nice it's not going to give you a title Connor will certainly tell you he gives you no money so you know it's it but it may be of interest to yourself but one of the risks and I have had this happen it's a little from my point of view personally sad I've had a couple of people who said one gentleman yeah about a year ago when it turned out he was definitely was actually M222 therefore definitely not part of the delegation group and he said I'm glad my father's already passed away he said he'd be so disappointed he thought we came from Clare and his family had always said that we were part of the Dremel and O'Brien now he was happy enough to know where he belongs he really is quite happy in fact he's doing a lot more research on it but I've had that happen more than once in the last eight years and but that's not what we're there for but unfortunately that's probably one of the side events a conclusion hmm these Irishman please give us a sample you know the Americans can do it the Canadians could we even have Mexicans and we certainly have the odd Australian in New Zealand so can you please get on to that family or I know they think they know where they're from and they probably haven't lived in that village for too many years but the point is we do not have a very good we need a much larger grouping and matching if we're going to do more research the Irish need to be far wider tested it is actually becoming a little bit embarrassing because until we do that we'll be really getting to that I think FDNA I've done a great job I've had my arguments with their owners and other people over the time I do think it's a bit expensive still to get people in I know I've probably spent two and a half thousand Australian dollars which are about what two thousand seven eight hundred US dollars and I don't mind you know it's part of I don't smoke or drink so you see that's my but but I don't mind that but at the same time that's a lot of money for people to get involved in and the trouble with a DNA is if you get that small test which is what's the current bargain it's about 60 euros or something hundred something you if you get that small test I've got news for you that's not the last euro or dollar you're gonna spend all right it gets worse one of the most exciting things is when I was able to find out about Renee who spoke yesterday about the the Barrymore project and there's a big chart up the back there it sounds really crazy when you tell people that your next ambitions to go and find someone dig them up and have them tested for DNA but that's now what we're probably going to look at it'll take three five years we got to get the money we've got to do the crowdfunding and we've got to get a hell of a lot of permissions O'Brien's tended to be buried in rather important places but we will get there we have one who's over near the Vatican and that's even a problem so where we'll we're gonna find out it's now become my sort of aim and I think it will be exciting and we know where some of Bromber who's children or grandchildren or great-grandchildren are buried so we will be able to do that as time goes on and that will just change the way we look at the whole snips and the and the timeline it would confirm things because you know when these people are like so that's the big one I look forward and hope I can return here one day it's a long trip it's about 36 hours when you add in all the stopovers so it's a long trip and I won't say it's cheap I especially like to take my members look some of my members are amazing I go out to them on an email and they just say oh no race Dennis we'll spend another 60 dollars or whatever and they're really really good Kevin O'Brien or Kim James O'Brien in Buffalo needs a special mention that man comes down and I think at least once a year and probably twice a year he haunts his relatives he he has got more Irish specimens on our DNA list than anyone else would you agree to this he's the he's the Irish he haunts he absolutely drives and crazy he goes out there and sticks it in their mouth so I really give him a spare and of course he's our walk the Y guinea pig and without him well I'm not gonna say we're adding we wouldn't have found what we found but he'd certainly made up how I've got to thank Connor you know we as far as I know we're the only surname project of a significant family whose head has been game enough to give us the DNA and you know it could have been a risk I don't know how he would have explained the backing or Middle Eastern or something but it it gave us the measurements and it he's he Connor has never not let me use his DNA and I've expanded on it we've done the big wine or he has always been supported so I really do appreciate that because it makes us allies easier but it's a measuring stick and when you've got a yardstick with a nice paper trail plus the DNA wow it makes running a project a lot so thank you very much yep thank you very much thank you very much and please give a welcome for the O'Brien, Sir Connor O'Brien, Agent Brown, Interim and Peter Crane. You've got to say a few words, this is who you are, how you got involved and why you are. Great. Good morning everyone. I have to thank Dennis and all those who've been involved in the O'Brien DNA scheme. It started as Dennis said in 2004 Mike O'Brien ran our clan website and got into DNA. Kevin joined and of course Dennis right as well. Now the O'Brien clan are supposedly about 850,000 strong so there's plenty of revenue there for the DNA project to get teeth around. We're in fact the fifth most numerous Irish clan and as you probably all know the Murphys are the most numerous. I think probably the O'Brien's, the O'Connor's and the O'Neil's were so busy fighting each other probably most of the time that the Murphys were off doing other things and now there are more of them. The reason to participate really for my participation was because of my pedigree. I'm actually the 32nd in direct descent from Bramberu and uniquely it's more or less totally confirmed by documentary evidence. I mean the history of Bramberu and the Kings of Ireland is well written and I don't think many people would dispute that. Maybe some Irish historians might. But we descend from Bramberu who was Audrey or High King of Ireland. He was King of Thomand and King of Munster and continued right up until the middle of the 1500s when in 1543 Mara who was the tainist he was standing in for Donna his nephew was forced rarely had no choice but to submit to King Henry VIII and then the 1st of July 1543 went over to Greenwich and handed in his kingdom and said he would be a good boy but he wasn't all that good he didn't immediately change his religion. But that happened to many of the the chiefs at that time and we've been criticized for it but the proof of the pudding is we're still here. Those who didn't take King Shilling probably disappear and didn't play the same part in Irish history and that has really been a reason that we've been able to to genuinely trace our family heritage. The Viscounts Clair, Baron Inchequins, the earls of Inchequin and the marquis of Thomand are all the titles of the main branch of the O'Brien family. Many of which died out but because of the fact that Mara was the tainist we can go back to Mara and we would I descend from Mara who was the first Baron Inchequin and the earl of Thomand for his lifetime only. Particularly interesting lectures yesterday and particularly the Barrymore project on ticking up your ancestors. Morgan Llewellyn some of you may have heard of who wrote the book Lawn of Ireland which is still supposedly going to be made into a film hasn't happened yet. She was researching documents in the Oxford Library and she came across an entry in 1870 that the Royal Engineers were excavating in our mar cathedral which is where Brian Baroo was buried and they dug up this skeleton which was six foot or just over six foot in length which Brian Baroo by tradition was supposedly a six foot man a big man and he they contacted the government the British government obviously and said we think we found the bones of Brian Baroo what should we do and they were told to smash them up because if the Irish heard of this they would rise up again and there would be another uprising. Whether that's true I don't know but I've been up to Omar many times I've spoken to the Dean of the Cathedral and they don't really know exactly where he was buried so the chances of digging Brian Baroo up are pretty slim. His son Donner who didn't fight in the Battle of Clontarth because he was further south fighting in Lensstone he wasn't the greatest king after Brian Baroo and in 1064 he repaired to Rome where he handed in the crown which I presume was Brian Baroo's crown to the Pope and he was buried in St Stefano's Basilica there and that's still in the existence and there's a there's a carving of the crown above him. Now I don't know whether he's actually underneath it or not but that is a possibility although extremely unlikely we've done some research and we've made various requests to the Vatican but we continually get the same reply that they don't let information out on what is in the Vatican because we wanted to find out whether the crown was still there or whether as some historians say the Pope gave it to Henry II when he became King of Ireland or Lord of Ireland. So we're looking for probably a junior Monsignor who is down in the depths of the Vatican looking after the the artifacts and if anyone knows of such a man would you let me know because that's the only way we'll ever find out whether there is a record of that in the archives whether it is still there or whether it was handed to Henry II. If it was the chances are it was melted down at the Cromwellian times to pay for the Cromwellian armies to come over and fight the Irish which would be a great shame if that was the case. There are as Dennis says many other descendants of Brian Baroo from the 11th and 12th century who were buried in Clare and maybe one of them would be the one to look at to actually go back and see if we can get any DNA from them but that's a long process and by no means guarantee. I have to thank everyone and particularly Morris for an excellent symposium fascinating. I know virtually nothing about DNA. I should know more and I found the lectures I've attended in the last two days fascinating and maybe I will become a little bit more experienced in the fine art of DNA and thank you all very much. Thanks very much. We have time for maybe a couple of questions so any questions for Sir Connor and Dennis? Let's have a question here. Thanks both for the very interesting and exciting presentation. My question really relates to maybe a question to both of you. Many historians have written about the first Giles Thomas D. Ors marrying Nora O'Connor, Nora O'Brien, the Princess of Tolman daughter of Carlic around 1300. Have you either through genealogy or through DNA checked? Indeed that is now substantiated and it's thought that you could potentially adopt a whole tonne of choices of being descendants of the O'Brien. At this stage now and I think look that's the sort of thing that may become more obvious when the L226 expands with snips coming in. So okay hold on next couple of years you could just see a snob around your door. Okay we have a question here from Jared. Yes you're expecting anything on the age of L226 so it's elder brother and the F21 was found in Rotten Island so 4,000 years ago so we already know that but did the estimated team RCA of the F21 about 2 to 6 is 4,300 so it's probably they'll be careful. That would make sense. He had in Ireland or on this way. Yeah and that's and that's look and technically very very quickly my favourite O'Brien by far is Chateau O'Priot. It's not bad I agree with that one. I don't know what the DNA is. We have a last question down here. Hello Dennis I'm an O'Brien as well. You were talking about not enough of us in Ireland testing. Do you have any breakdown as to the proportion of people from each country who are members of the group or if you have any idea? Look I could do that. I would I'll be honest if memory serves you right it's about that many out of the 500 that are living in Ireland. Some may only be a couple of generations like most of my family that have been tested none of my Irish family have been tested but the non-Irish have so I'm just saying it's a yes it's a corner obviously is one but I'm just saying it would probably be half a dozen maybe it doesn't at the most would you agree with that? Yeah it's a very small very small and we need to really work on that that's probably the one thing we haven't done a lot of and we need to market it and we've got to probably I haven't tried to get FTA a benefit FTA to do a freebie for a while to just see where you get some people but I didn't get down that one but anyway that's it. Well maybe I could make a start by presenting both of you with free DNA tests to use on whoever you so desire so if there are any overrinds in the audience you might be able to persuade one of these gentlemen to give you a free one DNA test but I will leave it up to yourselves to decide that obviously we need as many Irish people to do the DNA testing because that helps anchor the diaspora or Brian's or whatever surname you have in Ireland we need the local native Irish you always stay here in the country there are families back for generations to do the wide DNA tests in order to help our diaspora relatives to connect with their ancestral homelands so please can I ask you to join me in giving a very very big thank you to Cthulhu Grant and Jonathan Grant. Thank you.