 All righty welcome everybody it's great that I think this is last one of the day and we have such a full room that is great compared to my last talk those two of you that were here that was wonderful anyway I'm Troy Dawson I am the Apple steering committee chair how do y'all I'm Carl George I'm the Apple team lead in the seat the Apple subteam of CPE the community platform engineering group inside Red Hat yep and we're gonna give our annual state of Apple as usual I like starting off with grass if those of you who've heard Matt's things he says there's two types of things this one is his thing called velocity Raptor and it's it's basically the old thing it's just getting the IP addresses of machines coming in we don't know anything about them and it's sort of cool we've actually broken the five million point on this one you'll see that's a Apple 7 is by far the the biggest and it's a three and a half million so anyway this is a fun one we have all these various points I'm not gonna point them all out the Apple 9 you can see the Apple 9 there I'll point that one out it's a hundred people coming in late haha kidding it's okay so so anyway Apple 7 still by far our leader now again these are velocity velociraptizer if those of you saw Matt's thing you know why it's dinosaurs and he's called them dinosaurs because we don't really know what's happening these are all done by IP address we know things like Facebook has several million behind an IP address so and it counts as one last I heard they've changed to plural millions millions okay okay with an M or B okay now this is Brondis source of fire so Bronson fire is with the new hey I should have that in the nose new DNF check I get this one count me DNF count me so these are only for eight and nine because seven didn't have it but these are more realistic numbers and as you can see it's up here at two million which is pretty good and nine is it it's just that I'm not gonna I don't ever show these with Fedora numbers because they get sad yes Matthew said has said several times that the Apple artifacts are some of the most downloaded artifacts from the Fedora project it's but for nine we're only 200 basically a quarter of a million only yeah so let's break those down a little bit more if those again if you saw Matt's talking he likes to break them down into and fear if they're more things that don't last very long one week two to four weeks and five to 24 so these are actually trends that we are expecting I used to go over these a little bit more but for we'll call them enterprise loads we these big 25 plus weeks things are what you expect because people don't usually use them in short loads except for testing so we expect testing different testing people that have a one month cycle some people do that they completely wipe their machine and put loaded every month and then the majority of people okay so here comes the funner things last time we we showed these we did not put names here and we people were sad so I'm putting names here and this is rail nine you know notice Rocky's in the lead but it said a hundred K it's not really that big of a lead but they still are and Cento stream and Alma are basically tied they're fighting there for second rail and there's Oracle okay so but this is nine nine we sort of expect that is still growing rails gonna grow up because a lot of people don't really put the rail on until three or four or actually we'll see yeah it's right there okay now this is eight so this has some really fun things that I I thought was interesting and I didn't even tell Carl these so that he's going to be surprised the biggest one I think is interesting is Centos Linux right here this is where Centos Linux 8 when end of life and it was really fun because it went down and it went right back up to almost a million and then it went down but if you see in the past almost a year it's actually leveled off to 600,000 yeah some little clarity on that my theory is is that this wasn't that those systems went away and people deployed new systems the way that Count me works is the way that the end of life went the content got moved the repo content got moved to the archive or the vault sorry and then at that point because of the order of the repo files Apple stopped getting hit and it would DNF would abort on that first one that it couldn't reach and so a lot of people would just switch those to the vault repos to keep using the same systems without updates and then they would start contacting Apple again so I think that dip and then coming right back is just people switching from the live repos that got retired to the vault repos that still existed but just were un-maintained yep and I totally agree with Carl and but it looks like at some point at least the some people realize that maybe we should get something at least some people realize it was a short-term solution yeah but not everybody so it's still in first place but it's not by as much now there at the very end it dips down again it's done again we'll see how yeah it's stepped down before the second place is rel and rocky they keep changing over and over that's what it is and this last one Alma finally past Cento stream I'm a Cento stream on the engineering team so this makes me sad or Oracle Linux is there and then cloud Linux Matt puts this actually on cloud Linux now here's the next slide I then went and found all the distributions that have been checking in and this is where for me it's fun I'm not gonna read where it gets weird all 101 so cloud Linux which was at the bottom of the last one is at the top of this one this is a hundred thousand to hundred users there's cloud Linux and then looking at this actually I'd heard of all of these but and and all this I don't even know how to pronounce that I think Analyst is my guess and all us that is a Chinese distribution so I've looked at it and it's is that the one that's backed by Ali Baba it was on the Ali Baba website but it might be like running it on Amazon you know okay I don't know it like I said it's all Chinese oh I'm not sure it's Chinese I think it's Chinese anyway for those 100 that was the one that stood out to me for this one these are the 100 through 5 users I'm very good my favorite one on this is this one 10 CentOS or 10 CentOS so I'll note that anyone could just edit your it's your Etsy OS release file and put any name you want in this data it's not hard to just come up with fun things and you'll see that on the next slide with the smaller single digit stuff yep there yes oh yeah there is Fedora wait where did Fedora oh yep we do to be clear we do not recommend running Apple on Fedora because it doesn't make sense because the packages in Apple should already be in Fedora so it's a little strange yeah now there is a conflicts in the in the Apple release package but if they just configure the repo file directly they can still hit the repos and get counted in these numbers so I know another slide you had Amazon Linux which as I understand it the last Amazon Linux that wasn't based on Fedora Linux was Amazon Linux 2 which was mostly rel 7 ish yeah and so people are adding Apple 8 to that release even though it's not even close to targeting it and hoping things work and you know for your Python stuff sometimes anywhere it's fun so to show how really weird this is so great now where did it go Fubar where's Fubar Fubar Fubar Linux has one user and I thought that was weird because I'd heard of it and the maintainer actually contacted me this last week they rebuild Apple they have they rebuild all of Apple very similar to like ELN does rawhide and this one thing is a mistake so they have a lot of users they rebuild Apple as a package gets built they just don't want to be counted I don't know why I all I know is that's where which one never heard of it before oh I remember that one from back my scientific that's from China I mean there's an IBM Linux up there too and who knows what that is like I said anyone can edit your OS release fall to say anything and put it in here it's I actually took a couple out one of them somebody had actually accidentally piped something into their thing because it was all these weird things anyway I took a couple of them out but anyway those are you don't want a fork bomb in your slide this was just for fun don't expect it every year because it was a pain in the rear to make this is more more serious and it's our maintainers and we're we are very grateful for our maintainers both you here those of you online and those of you watching you later thank you very much over the years we've we've gotten more and more it looks like it's going down and but maintainers fluctuate Apple is a volunteer-based community even most of our stuff now granted Carl's currently getting paid for it but he was a volunteer way before that and so we want to thank you people on Apple nine we did have a trend going down so the trend is sort of to have ten pack packages per maintainer so that no one person gets overwhelmed and then Rust came in and this is Fabio watching this Apple nine got down to 11 and then all of a sudden just boom yeah and more sad face I'm no longer number one that makes me sad oh it's not that Fabio no he's like three the other Facebook person Michelle Michelle Michelle is number one I'm like number three or four I'm sad not that sad actually I'm excited I'm glad yes obviously maintaining a ton of packages yourself is not great well because I was number one for so long I never wanted to say that I never wanted to give the top ten now I can so anyway we are very grateful for our maintainers in Apple and on behalf of not just the Apple committee but as the users thank you very much Apple seven I'm gonna start with this one turn over to you Apple seven will go end of life June 30th 2024 that's less than a year away Red Hat recently due to the large amounts as you saw the second slide large amount of seven people Apple rail seven people have made this new extended life thing and I don't know the three or four letter acronym but ELS ELS extended life cycle support I believe okay they made this different thing but the basic ending of rail is happening on the 30th of June 2024 as an Apple committee we did discuss this and Apple is going to end on that same time we will not be trying to extend it the end of maintenance phase to yes so on June 30th 2024 Apple seven will be we'll go into archive it will no longer be able to be it will no longer be maintained and all the things that go with the end of life Apple release anything else for Apple seven I know I'm I know I'm hogging the slides no the there's one point we want to bring up that as y'all saw on the other charts Apple seven is still the most popular artifacts but it's also getting the least attention from maintainers a lot of maintainers they tend to like the new shiny they're focused on heck and get all my new stuff added in Apple nine it's interesting they like to point it and get in all those new features so just naturally over time Apple seven gets less and less attention which is partially by design similar to rail seven it's in the last part of its life cycle and it's slowing down it's getting few fewer fewer changes only the most critical critical things get fixed now so but because it's still so popular if you have Apple seven packages you depend on consider getting involved in helping take care of those because we have a lot of open bugs we look at what open CVE bugs there still are because there's no guarantees and it's all volunteer we just kind of hope that people come along we look at those from time to time and we can but we would like help if you're interested yep thank you very much let's go to eight sure let me talk a little home yeah so with Apple eight we did some interesting stuff this is the first release where we had sent to a stream mate and things got shaken up first a little bit we knew we wanted Apple to you know how important it is for people that were using it and we proposed a new thing called Apple Next because we're starting to see that some library changes if you saw Adam's talk earlier he talked about the application compatibility guide so while most things in real don't change very much at all you know ABI wise there are some things that are on a lot lower priority on that list that are allowed to change their library so names and things like that think LLVM QT there's a few other things when those happen now they happen in sent to a stream about you know four to six months before they happen in rel it's the change that's coming to rel that's planned for and approved for rel it's not some you know wild unexpected thing we see it happening and we know it's going to be coming but sometimes occasionally that can cause Apple packages to not install correctly we saw that as a problem with Apple eight and we wanted thought about how we could fix that so we came up with a thing called Apple Next and that allows maintainers to optionally build against sent to a stream eight to get their packages compatible it's not a whole duplication of Apple it's just a rebuild of those think of the times I've measured it was usually less than one percent of packages that had trouble with that due to those changes so it's just select rebuilds it's an extra repo so rel rel you relate users would use just epilate sent to a stream eight users would use epilate and epilate next together and that's worked pretty good there's a there's been some it worked it was good for our first attempt attempt is kind of a bolt-on solution to the problem with how we were art the existing way we did Apple I'll get into that that's starting a thread of what we're gonna talk about on the Apple 10 slides I'm gonna you know backburner that for a minute but it worked well enough the other thing I'll point out is the end of life stuff I know you're about to jump in with that I saw you yeah so talking about end of life sento stream eight goes end of life same time let's just say it's the same time of seven basically June 1st of next year with that the Apple next repo repo is going away it really shouldn't affect any non-cento stream people but we just want you to know that it's it's going away when sento stream goes away but it shouldn't really affect you much yeah at that point it won't be necessary anymore yeah because that's the point that rail eight enters its maintenance phase and you know a lot fewer things would be changing there shouldn't there won't be any more minor releases and there definitely shouldn't be any more library changes for lower like ACG for packages the lower priority ones I mentioned yeah we ready for nine so Apple nine we had the real nine launch last year in 2022 and we actually at one point we thought that it was for the first time ever we launched Apple nine before we actually it's not exactly correct we found some old mailing list stuff about how Apple seven actually launched with a beta period so it made things a little confusing and when you yeah it was actually opposed from Kevin there so we were kind of describing it somewhat incorrectly depending on how you viewed it Apple seven left its beta period after after the rail seven launch so sort of it was true but also there was something so there were packages in Apple seven just under the beta label at the rail seven launch we did some lines on this chart at the time of the rail nine launch there was two thousand six hundred and seventeen source packages in Apple nine which was great just having those available at own launch day for rel for rel seven it was a little bit behind that I think it I think you said it took about a month for it to catch up to that point is released that arbitrary cutoff is released the main we made it to you know in July and it was like a month after that that they that we removed the beta label from it we didn't put that on there because it was just real real messy but it's an interesting little artifact of history so the big thing to take away is the growth pattern for Apple nine you can see it's much much steeper than Apple eight another thing I'll point out here is that Apple eight actually launched or rather rel eight launched with zero packages in Apple eight it got a late start there's a lot of reasons for that and if this wasn't a 25 minute talk I would probably get into those but if you want to know more about that come and find me and ask more questions because it's a long story but we obviously knew that was a problem we actually got a lot of customer feedback about I'm not upgrading from real seven until the packages I need an Apple are there I know they're not supported but I still need them and that actually helped lead to the creation of the team that I'm the team lead of now the Apple team with NCB to staff that role I wonder what the same now that all those packages are in eight and nine and they're still on seven they're big enterprises they take a long time to change stuff so we hopefully hopefully this is a lot more attractive target so that way when they're looking at their upgrades they may just skip it entirely and go all the way to nine and just get current a lot of them won't they'll still go to eight first but we can't control that so going to the next side so this is a few logos of things of notable packages we had in Apple nine this is from a while back I forget when we did this this is one at launch time this was at launch time this was at launch time that we were we were saying look we have all these at launch time and now how many do we have now a lot more basically ran out of space for logos yep had to resize a few of them but yes there's a lot of cool software there it's growing a lot and if you've got your favorite piece of software that's not up there or didn't get a didn't get highlighted up this isn't everything I couldn't fit everything on one slide if you have something that you want to see an Apple help get involved and get it added Apple 10 Apple 10 here's the good stuff this is what y'all came here to hear about so I mentioned on the Apple next stuff with I talked about it on the Apple 8 slide we also had Apple next for it for nine it worked as a bolt-on solution to get get the problem solved but we noticed a lot of some problems with it it was unintuitive for users and a little bit unintuitive for maintainers as well the the branches weren't created automatically in disk it they had to request them and some maintainers would be confused about when they when it was appropriate to request a branch we saw a pattern of maintainers building in both Apple and Apple next just by default they thought they needed both when they're the dependencies of the package involved weren't different between rel and sent to a stream so there was no need for it was unnecessary so we thought how could we make this more intuitive and it's actually something while I was digging up the Apple 7 beta stuff and reading about that I found out that this is an idea that's been thrown out before talking about having minor releases for Apple branches so that's what we thought about doing for Apple 10 yeah so here's a little bit of the history with with Apple 7 we built you know the current state of it it's built against rail 7.9 it has a disc tag in the release field of dot EL 7 and it goes in the repo path of Apple 7 and then 8 you can see that still this is the current state Apple 8 follows the same pattern Apple 8 next is still built against into a stream 8 it gets a disc tag of dot EL 8 dot next and it goes in a different repo path same thing for 9 and then for 10 for we for reference we thought about well how does this work we're talking to Fedora maintainers a lot of time because Apple maintainers are Fedora maintainers if you're a Fedora maintainer and you're not involved in Apple all you have to do is make the branch and then you're an Apple maintainer congratulations it's super easy barely any convenience so here's how it works in Fedora it doesn't have minor versions but with each release we have we have the leading branch raw hide that has FC 39 disc tag and that reflects what the content is going to be and there's a very similar pattern with the minor release minor versions in sento a stream what you see in sento a stream 9 right now reflects the content you can expect in rail 9.3 that is going to be released in the fall so there's a I know that similarity there stuck in my head and I kept thinking about it and wondering how could we build on that and make something that's more intuitive when that when things branch from raw hide to f38 or rather in the future whenever f39 branches the f39 branches will be created and then the raw hide branch will get switched to the FC 40 disc tag and they've got their own you know repo paths so go and switch the next one this is what we're thinking about for Apple 10 we'll have a leading branch Apple 10 built against sento a stream 10 and it'll use a disc tag reflecting the content that it should say this will be at this point in time will be the rail 10 launch basically so at that point sento a stream 10 will already be reflecting 10.1 content so it'll get the corresponding disc tag for that but it will still we're thinking we're going back and forth from this a little bit but thinking about just putting it in a bare Apple 10 path just because that minor version of the content it's reflecting isn't programmatically determinable inside sento a stream itself so the easiest way is to just think of it as it doesn't have a minor version and make the repo path work the same way but we can still put it in the disc tag for the migration whenever we actually create a 10.1 repo at this point in time real 10.0 will be out and we'll have Apple 10.0 branches with the corresponding disc tag and repo path oh that's one thing I forgot to bring up that we did different with Apple 9 is that you don't change slide for it with Apple 9 we actually we launched it early by building by building Apple 9 not Apple 9 next by building it against sento a stream 9 early for about six months that's what let us get all those packages in there early and then that was that was a huge boom to the project and getting packages out and we thought about how how could we bring that same success we did it for 9.0 but we're not doing it for any other minor release of 9 this brings the same concept to every minor release and then packages the other part of Apple Apple next it's painful especially for Troy with all his KDE packages is that whenever he does have to rebuild against say a new QT library he has to do it in Apple next and do all of those updates and then a few months later do the same exact thing in Apple all over again he can't there's no way to inherit the builds because the way we designed it as a bolt-on thing with this we explicitly want to be able to inherit the build so that things that you build against sento a stream you can just it'll just populate the next repo path a few months down the road and bring that same benefit that we had with the launch of Apple 9 to every minor version so for example for the KDE users when well 10.2 comes out you will get your KDE packages that day because soon as you update to the release so it says 9.2 or 10.2 you got the KDE things because they were already built in the sento stream that was corresponded to 10.2 and I don't have to do anything that week and you don't have to wait and have your broken I feel bad but there's only so it's I can build them so fast so anyway so we're still talking about all the finer points of this Apple 10 proposal and if you want to join that discussion the short URL red.ht slash Apple 10 that'll take you to the Fedora discourse page discussing it and there's a few breakout threats from there talking about the finer details about how we're gonna implement it and that's all in flight and in progress and if it's interesting to you come help us build it this is all the planet it's not just the plan it's approved by the Apple steering committee it's the way we're doing it we just haven't done it yet and there's some of the finer details to work out still yep I just saw the time so we're gonna go to the next one there is an Apple survey we did we're trying to do annual Apple surveys we didn't quite get it in time for this one coming soon look at the Apple announced and Apple develop we'll post about it there and probably in the next week I would say we'll have that survey live and keep it open throughout the month of August I think and it'll be less complicated than last year's yes we trimmed down the number of questions significantly and reworded them I like this years and question and answers I in the in the past I I maintain some packages for Fedora and in the past there was an Apple branch and then then you could just push your changes and right now I can find it and I have been trying to I have been looking for information on how to put these packages on Apple and I just I might be bad at searching it's okay is it is actually one of our most common questions basically you you have to branch like you do the other ones they are not currently automatically branched the command will be fit packing when you're in the checked out repo you can do Fed package request branch Apple 8 Apple 9 whichever yep actually oh maybe we do have it on oh that is if you go to that URL it has instructions for Fedora packages non-Fedora packages and just end users other type in the whole URL if you go to doc stop Fedora project org there's a rectangle that says Apple click on that and then the sidebar there's a package request link right there will be a little easier to navigate to than type in the whole thing but yeah that's that's our most common question so don't think that's a silly question we don't do it he mentioned that we don't do it automatically mainly because we don't always know that it's appropriate for an Apple package to go in the next branch of Apple sometimes it's because that package got added to rel and by Apple's rules it can't be an Apple if it's in rel other times the software might just be you know no longer maintained upstream so it would be a bad idea to add it to another Apple branch that's going to hypothetically exist for another 10 years so we leave that up to maintainers we are thinking about a few things with Apple 10 obviously changing the branching style to have minor versions but also there's a thing called elin extras which is sort of like if you're familiar with elin how it's sort of like future rel elin extras is sort of like future Apple elin itself is built you know specifically of what the content set that's going into rel 10 right now and then you know whatever future major version in the future elin extras anyone can create their own workload there's the term and that's just the packages you care about to make sure they keep building correctly against elin so in theory it'll help reduce the work and make sure things work correctly when you build it for Apple 10 in the future we're talking about ways that we can actually look at those workloads and automatically create Apple 10 branches for those people that have already expressed the interest I want to have this working on future rel so we also we've also talked about just creating branches and then if people don't need them just whatever let them you know retire them when they want to or just let them exist and be ignored but I think that would be good not everyone agrees with me so I don't think we're gonna go that route I don't think having branches around is that big a deal but whatever I don't make decisions unilaterally unilaterally any other questions or the low on time but you got one more good this might be a slight tangential question go for it we have an hour oh we have an error cool I can't go for an error what was the like concept behind the Apple logo or is that oh I got a rewind my brain back okay most duffies here she she helped we were we were spitball and all sorts of pictures and she came up with sort of this one oh wait where's where's oh there's our logo but do you want me to explain it but the the red part is rail the blue handle is fedora and then the middle one is like a rock socket wrench and we figured we'd have a blue the same blue as fedora because Apple is in fedora that's that's the closest thing we did but everybody liked it so that's what it was yeah the centaur that one never worked out that was that was sort of cool but yeah I think Mo she I could show you the old one and try to explain what that was but everybody that looked at it had a different definition of what it was any other questions yeah okay well oh we do have them oh okay well thank you all again thank you for our contributors we we really appreciate it there's a lot of volunteer works a lot of people are red hats and volunteer and a lot of people are other companies volunteer so thank you very much and we'll talk to you next year