 My name is Martin Nietzsche and I'm happy and proud to say hello to all of you and To say that we are starting with our next payment dialogue We have a very very interesting topic today Which led to a lot of registrations and a lot of interest about Cryptocurrency. I would have been happy to get a little bit of knowledge about that topic Let's say five years ago when they were really cheap and I would have been well, let's say Eager enough to invest some money five years ago Probably I wouldn't be here today. Probably I wouldn't lying in the Sun somewhere or Mauritius now So maybe it's good that I did not invest in character currencies five years ago Otherwise, I couldn't have been here, but it's an interesting topic But it's not only interesting from a personal point of view, but I think it's as well Very interesting if you look at from an economy point of view if you look at from a Society point of view and as well from a post-operator point of view So I'm proud and I'm really happy about this interesting topic and I'm happy to have two people here with me One is Armin Schmid. We will talk a little bit later about Armin because he's the most important person today And the other one who is with me is Sergei Sergei from the UPU. I will I would just say Sergei It's your show. You are the one who made all this possible. You are one who is paying for all of this So I would say Sergei up to you Yeah, thanks Martin for giving me the opportunity to open this workshop and good morning Good afternoon to everybody again depending on your time zone and the country you are Well, I'm glad to welcome you to the force now It's the force webinar in our series and this is a joint initiative of the UPU and the postal payment services user group Actually, this series is aimed at better understanding the nature of the payments the trends and also the best practices in the postal financial services and also making advantage from new technology developments across the globe You all know that posts all over the world are recognized as trusted public service providers They have a global network and a traditionally best partners in the delivery of accessible and affordable financial services Especially when we're talking about social payments and remittances And that is of course crucial for the and bank populations The UPU itself and I be particular is constantly assisting member countries in this area of financial services development and Specifically that is done by building a worldwide electronic postal payment network Which is based on the legal framework in the form of the UPU international treaty, which is called postal payment services increment Furthermore a trademark a recognized brands, which is called post transfer Is also a useful tool that allows postal operators to provide their own modern money transfer services Being a way of industry innovations the UPU is examining the role that new technologies in general and Especially blockchain and cryptocurrencies of which we will talk today can play in the postal industry and Of course, most specifically the role of the UPU and the members of the UPU in enabling efficient delivery of financial services In this regard, I would like also to mention that UPU is now leading a study on Distributed legit technologies and it's used for the postal sector and this study is about to be finalized by the end of this year and presented somewhere in January The objective of this particular webinar is to challenge operators and All those who are attending this webinar With some thoughts on the use of cryptocurrencies in the payments business area and how post could potentially use them to incentive further improvements of payment services, I Hope that we all will get some insights of what role cryptocurrencies Applying now and of course what our customers needs nowadays On the other end from the UPU perspective We will see how post transfer service provided by the UPU can be improved to better respond to the present and future client needs And of course market demands So thank you Martin that was my opening remarks and I'm Back to you Thanks, Sergei Interesting thoughts. How can cryptocurrencies be alias or are they threats to postal payments and to postal operators and I think that's a question What's probably not only postal operators are asking themselves nowadays if I would be the manager of a bank I would ask probably the same question. I would be the manager of a big Vendor of a big Operator I would ask the same question So I think it's probably a question where we can exchange Postal payments to something else and everybody is asking the same question So I'm very happy that we have a very interesting Colleague of us I mean Schmeeg with us who is one one of the real Experts in these topics and if I mean if I say real experts, he is not only talking about that He's not from the only the scientific side But he is from the practical side of that topic and I think especially with cryptocurrencies There are a lot of people out there who talk about the topic But don't really know about the topic and with Armin I know is that he not only talks about it. He really knows about it So I'm very happy that we have him here before I give over to Armin Two things from my side. The first one is the series is called payment dialogue. It's not called payment monologue So for the last five minutes we spoke and for the next 30 minutes I'm in will speak but After that, we would really like to go into into an interesting dialogue with all of you So if you have questions, please put them in the message box in the chat Ask them already We will all collect these questions if you want to do it with talking as well Put it in the in the chat and I will put you on afterwards Put you on with your camera and your microphone and we all can get into a dialogue and please really do that Because we have only 30 minutes of presentation and we want to do something very worthwhile with your time after that So we have open for a discussion with all of you I'm very interested in the dialogue about this very interesting topic. That was the first point The second one is Armin You I had of bitcoins, Swiss and pay and stable coins But you have a very interesting CVE. You were started with McKinsey. You were working for a big cable operator You were working for eBay. You're working for PayPal and now you're working in another Position again, and I think it's interesting to see that you can talk about this from a consultancy perspective From a from a eBay perspective from a PayPal perspective So you have very different views on this interesting topic, and I think that's what makes it very interesting Armin over to you. I'm not talking any longer the stage. The floor is yours, and we are all very interested About what you can say Please put on your On your screen sharing and then we can start with the presentation Excellent Before I start screen sharing I just would like to say thank you for the opportunity and thank you For having me here as a speaker There are two things only two things I would like to bring across today one Please use crypto test it out. Give it a try Because in the end you have to as we would say make your fingers dirty to really try it out to test it out To see how this really works and the second is think a little bit what I'm going to share with you right now And I think I have a couple of thoughts put together I don't give you somehow a recommendation for me It is it is just very important that I would love to make you think That's the only thing I wanted to do today, and I'm sharing right now with you a presentation Which is actually here and I hide it here. And so we can talk a little bit about The cryptocurrencies as allies or threats to postal payments Just one word about bitcoins with bitcoins with is one of the biggest Crypto broker at least in Europe, but definitely amongst the top ones also in in the world We work with exchanges mainly and our main business is buying Hosting keeping and selling cryptos. That's that's our main business and we have some side businesses as well But today it's more about the payments more about the potential impact and The agenda is as follows What is money? What is Bitcoin in very short? So I don't want to make this too long What's the impact of Bitcoin and what is the impact on postal payments? And here on the right hand side to you see how US dollars are printed Maybe we will come back to this but give you the thought What is money who can print money and maybe cryptos are definitely a good alternative to this Stepping back a little bit evolution of money from bartering to cryptocurrencies I think back in the days we traded a sheep against some some grains Sooner or later we had some physical objects like the shells who became a part like something like a currency something like a valuable asset paper money is not that old so Obviously a couple of hundred years, but it's not that far back that it was invented Gold was always somehow important But the question was always a little bit to what extent can you really carry around gold because in the end it's heavy digital or Yeah credit card like models came about 60 70 years ago and I think especially electronic money I used to work for PayPal In my view made a big change actually to today's Cryptocurrencies and the reason why cryptocurrencies with Bitcoin started 2009 was linked to the financial crisis in 2008 which led to a new model how really this money thing could be dealt with also on an ongoing basis By the way, everything backwards is still possible. So we still can barter We still have paper money. We still have gold. We still use credit cards And so it's an evolution and it doesn't really mean that you exclude something from the past And I think that's the beauty so it is a coexistence People once in a while say will cryptocurrency take it all over? No, they will not in the end They are a part of the integrated value chain in in financial services Just a quick Yeah, a little little intro. What is money? It is a medium of exchange So you can trade goods and you can buy it with something. It's a store of value. You can have Some some bank notes in your pocket. You can have bitcoins on a mobile wallet or in a wallet itself and You can divide it. So you have a hundred Swiss francs or a hundred US dollar. You have 20 US dollar notes You have 10 you have five you have coins And I think this makes it all up and this is important also looking towards cryptocurrencies afterwards So it's a medium of exchange. It's a store of value and it's a unit of account So it can be divided Looking back From the ones in Europe who remember those bank notes? I did and I just looked yesterday also into some of my old Cones I still have it in a box at home. I found some lira and some franc as well and They're all gone. The euro took over and for me the next slide this slide here It's actually quite important to to look at Yes, the US dollar today at the very bottom is a very important global currency Everybody's talking about US dollar and it is in the end still somehow The most important currency today, but we see also that other markets are taking up and in history Obviously we had different currencies who were the leading currencies back in the days So let's talk about the real let's talk about the Dutch gilder. Let's talk about the pound and once in a while, they had a little bit a longer period and once in a while they had a little shorter period and With the current situation the Americans are putting the dollar into Maybe there is sooner or later time for a change No threats here, but maybe the US dollar is not always what it was and maybe what it will be going for it That's a little chart just showing how much money was printed recently and This is a little bit to the picture. I showed at the beginning. Who is really printing money? What is the real value behind money which gets printed be it in the US or be it in Europe or be those in Switzerland Or any other markets in the end the supply is a big a big issue in the end from my perspective from a crypto perspective towards inflation and It is just a nice picture here how US dollar is Basically worth nothing today compared to a couple of years ago and that's all linked to inflation and just imagine you had a hundred euros a couple of years ago It's basically worth nothing if you just kept your money on a bank account it's worth nothing and not nothing but basically nothing and so the big Question is how can you somehow escape this trap? How can you make sure that you as a? Individual or as a company or as a postal service are you using the right the rights the right currency for your for your business? and That's not me That's the Deutsche Bank research and I want to go through the statement on the left hand side But the main summary here is there doubts about the sustainability of fiat money like us dollar or like like like euros Etc. The demand for alternative currencies is absolutely there and we need a balance Really to somehow make sure the dilemma is solved between higher yields and the record level of debt Future generation have somehow to pay those debt. That's about money. I just wanted to give you some thoughts You can take your own decisions where and how you invest your own or your company or your postal money into What is Bitcoin? I keep this very short because in the end That's just a very rough overview about Distributed ledger technology and also Bitcoin, but I think it's still it's still very valid On the left hand side, you see a traditional bank setup This traditional centralized setup where a ledger where a documentation like a big Excel sheet somehow is centralized whole centrally hosted in a clearing house on the right hand side You have a more decentralized setup where different ledgers different positions are shared amongst more positions and Obviously, that's the big difference between a centralized unit or a decentralized or distributed setup And on the on the crypto side, you basically can see that we are definitely on the on the far right side where an independent group of people where an independent group of Software or codes where servers where nodes as we call them someone manage this ledger on a decentralized level and So the traditional business here at the top You have a client a who wants to send some money to a client B once it's in in South America and the others it's in in Vietnam for example, it takes days it takes maybe even weeks to send money from A to B and Therefore on the blockchain side We are all together and we have an immediate transaction and that's one of the main reason here So you can see here the little the little question here can postal transfer Be used Can can cryptos be used for postal transfers? Can money orders maybe be used for this because in the end you have an immediate transaction It can be Bitcoin. It can be something else. I will come back to this as well And this is an important picture. This this was very important for me to really understand Why Bitcoin is there top left a compact disc if you do a copy of a compact disc You don't see which one was the original. Yes, maybe you have a different label, but from a content wise It's exactly the same you can talk here about a copy of an MP3 file It's exactly the same no change Copy of a gold coin. Yes, of course, you can see you can double check if gold is still there but the beauty and the most one of the most important problems which got solved with Bitcoin is I can Clearly identify a digital good to an address Maybe a person afterwards behind I can put this in half and I can say I own half a Bitcoin And you won't have a Bitcoin, but this double spend problem has completely be sold So I cannot really spend the coin twice because in the end I know Everybody knows who owns this Bitcoin and this was the real innovation in the end of Bitcoin which really triggered the entire industry you can transfer digital goods in an International in a multi whatever set up and you clearly can identify identify who is behind it And that's the beauty about cryptocurrencies and blockchain This is just a nice overview and for me there are a couple of important statements here So Bitcoin started as I mentioned in 2009 shortly after the financial crisis The code and I think that's the important element. The code is the monetary policy The miners who are really running everything they get rewards for running and keeping the system alive There is a maximum supply of 20 man 21 billion million Bitcoins Which is expected to be printed in something like 2140 so in the year 2140 So there's no one who can say ah just increase the money just increase the value the number of bitcoins. No, it's a given 21 million bitcoins and that's it right now. We still can mine some new bitcoins in the future There are no more new bitcoins be Created and then people always talking about why does it need so much energy? That's part of the security So this is called proof of work and this generates in the end the secure setup of everything here and there are two Two notes down here There's a white paper from Satoshi Nakamoto. Please have a look at it. It's just about 10 15 pages It's not that complex. That's all about what really Bitcoin is all about And then there's another one The Bitcoin Node as it's called it this full note sculptor It's a it's a very nice overview really to put in couple of very simple terms the full setup of Bitcoin into into into a quite digestible setup What is the the base for growth in crypto payments and now let's switch a little bit more over to this side here You need somehow adoption and adoption is something of awareness about access and convenience and especially the convenience side In the crypto business is not always that easy. So many people are Always thinking who that's that's quite a complex business and the access is not that easy and I need a mobile wallet and Awareness is apparently there. But if I would see you in person, I would ask how many people own crypto Yes, I own crypto and luckily I invested a couple of years ago I still don't can go to Bahamas and just have a good time kite surfing. I'm a kite surfer But I still like actually my job and I think it's a good one that we can also somehow bring this Idea further to to to an international community. We can ask the question almond We have a chat here. So we can ask the question live So anybody who is having bitcoins or some other trip to currencies like Ethereum Just say yes into their chat and let's see if somebody is outing himself I have probably to say no, so I would say no But there are some people let's let's let's have a look whether One two three four five six seven not yet not yet Abby is saying not yet. So but several eight said yes, so as we are really hundred people now I would say about 10% having crypto currencies Which is excellent. I don't see it because I'm still sharing my presentation But I'm very happy to see that somehow the the initial coin. Let's call it this way is somehow distributed and let's continue Let's see how crypto is going to even Invades further into maybe your wallets and your your your your wealth because in the end I continue here and I think That's that's a very simple chart and I think it's in analogy of the internet and For me it is important actually to show when we really started The internet many many years ago and that was happily part of the evolution be it with the telecommunications business But also with eBay or PayPal The crypto business is much faster and you would see here. This is this is what I put into by the way Because I believe the adoption is much much faster compared to when we started open when the internet was started years ago Because back in the days I remember when I was at the eBay people thought what this is all about and how can you somehow sell goods across the internet? Yes, of course, you can I can tell you there's a lot that's a lot happening in the internet right now and Therefore the adoption. That's the main that's the main Take away here is huge and we can see a huge growth amongst the community as well and here the same It depends a little bit on the region by region But the the big question actually is why do we need? Cryptos and why do people invest into crypto in certain markets? I come back to El Salvador a little bit later But I think the important element is do you trust in the monetary system? Do you trust in someone who just can print the money? Have you seen some banknotes with many many many zeros behind it? Maybe it's rather Better to invest into cryptos where you know there are only 21 million there and there's nothing more which can be printed So the wealth obviously behind the cryptocurrency is definitely there but the stability of the of the cryptocurrency That's a little overview just to give you a flavor about about the major Cryptocurrencies and and that's a very basic one It's available at Cointre and the 60 don't I owe and you see this was a couple of days ago Bitcoin is if it's roughly 40 to 50 percent of the total Valuation of cryptos so it's huge if you know Bitcoin and maybe Ethereum here is you're already perfect and No financial advice you can go and invest into any others or smaller currencies Start somewhere and see that Bitcoin and ETH are obviously the big two ones and Switching back also to another topic and that just I want to quickly talk about this as well here You see that the native cryptos like Bitcoin and ETH, but you also see some other ones like USDT USDC those are crypto Currencies so-called stable coins So they are linked to an underlying value and here you have some private institutions like Tether or USDC You also have some smart contract So basically it's again a protocol that is giving you somehow the value behind the token And then you have central banks who are thinking or are doing already centrally distributed Coins so-called CBDC's Shental bank digital currencies and the question is always who do you trust? Do you trust a central body? Do you trust a protocol or do you trust the ECB or the Chinese? Government or you name it and the big question is maybe you do a little bit of all But at least here you have a valid and solid backing of the current fiat Let's say US dollar Value into the blockchain delivered I think that's an important one here and you can also see that the volume of those so-called stable coins have grown significantly over the last over the last years No further talk Talks about this because in the end I would like to talk and I think now the main the main topic having gone from The idea what is money? What is Bitcoin and what is now the impact of Bitcoin? I think that's that's so that's that's really important to understand and that's just a snapshot of How in the financial and in the payments industry? Bitcoin is Very much and the cryptos are very much in the heart of everybody and you can see a couple of names here So you see Tesla Tesla's accepting visa and mastercard are investing heavily mainly into patents But as major credit card companies are definitely very interested in what's the evolution of the transfer? I can tell you it is it is essential that they are looking into this We have word line here in Switzerland the partnering with us That you can accept Bitcoin and ease at the point of sale or in the internet I will show you then again how this really looks like PayPal obviously very active PayPal is also giving access to to cryptocurrencies and Recently El Salvador I come back to El Salvador as well and as of today, for example, we are also They just have launched today The going life of lightning which is a layer 2 protocol on Bitcoin don't want to go into much details there But you see the evolution is there and even life is lightning which makes it even much faster and much easier Important was also here. Novi. Novi is linked to Facebook and Just escape my name obviously Martin help me the ones in Geneva Facebook digital currency Anyway, just All the big ones were in that at the starting point. They just started to be part of of Libra. It wasn't a man Oh, Libra. Libra. I was looking for the Libra. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Martin Sorry, I just this guy didn't really remember the word anymore. But yes, Libra made it very clear and very prominent also in the market that hey this crypto thing is there to stay and That's that's a very important. That's very important element there for market friends and I can tell you I'm an engineer So I have a degree in material science. I have a business degree But about 50% of my time is legal regulatory and compliance Is it fun for me? Not really, but I can tell you it is important and therefore the first the first point for me is He for you in the postal system to accept and use crypto currencies It's the regulatory frameworks. They need to evolve. So in the end, it gives you also a certain stability in your in your business. That's that's one Two, I also talked a little bit about those stable coins because the transaction of a stable coin across The blockchain is so much faster and it would give you an idea how you can really transact in Seconds versus days or weeks in the past. So stable coins are going to give A huge benefit also for B2B companies and also for you in the post business and then obviously breaching from the fiat currencies to the crypto world is is an important element and somehow the infrastructure the infrastructure is getting there and Swift or ACH and other protocols. They are maybe a little bit in danger because there's something new coming and then The the transactional cost will boost Second-layer solutions. I was talking about lightning. So for example in El Salvador, I come back to this It's such such an important element there. Maybe maybe this is really going to be the revolution in the future I'm talking about El Salvador and maybe you have heard about this. Why is El Salvador somehow? In the press and why is El Salvador so important for us on a on a crypto and Bitcoin level? El Salvador Said I would love to say or I declare Bitcoin as a legal tender So everybody in El Salvador must accept Bitcoin when you want to for example would like to buy a Big Mac here at the picture shows or in any any market in any shop You have to accept Bitcoin and what was what was the reason for this? There are three main three main points to mention first. I think financial access And El Salvador did no longer have their own currency. They were linked directly to the US dollar and therefore it was kind of They were they were somehow just linked to the US situation and as a country. That's not that easy then 70% Of the people in El Salvador that don't have access to financial systems So in the end it's really making sure that the non-bank than underbanked get access to it 23% of the GDP is linked to remittances and just imagine if you pay 10% You pay then 10% to the Western unions of those world and maybe obviously that's also business for you But for you you also have to see this as a threat therefore my title is it a threat or is an ally and I Leave it up to you obviously to see if you do remittances as well with your systems And it's fully decentralized. That's my initial point. There's no one who can say I just print another billion of US dollar Second how is it done? It's via Bitcoin or via this Bitcoin lightning protocol, which is which is just a faster and And more efficient also cost efficient setup they have their own wallet and It really generates fast and cheap transactions and what is the impact? Obviously El Salvador you can say it's a smaller country But it made a big impact on the global basis And I think it is key and we have other come other markets who will follow there But the the independency from US dollar gives them obviously another freedom back They used to have it but now they have a freedom back and yes, not everybody was happy But it is also a global Bitcoin laboratory and other markets think about the same So Panama, Ukraine, Cuba or Zimbabwe, maybe even others But it is a big statement towards the crypto Industry and the crypto business Bitcoin is there to stay you can you can no longer You can no longer stop Bitcoin. It's like a religion. You can say it's forbidden You're not allowed to to trade anymore You cannot because in the end it's fully the central and this is very exactly El Salvador Just jumped in and said hey guys, I like it what you have it's Independent and we would like to make sure that the non-bank and on the bank get access to financial Systems and this really means financial inclusion And I show you quickly and I'm coming towards the end of my presentation So what do we have here in Switzerland? So we have an integrated solution where you have for example a point of sale Or you can send out an invoice or you can also have an e-commerce checkout and where you can accept Bitcoin and Ethereum and we Collected on for example the merchants we have we switch it immediately to Swiss francs or US dollar or euro And then we pay out the merchants in in Swiss franc or in Europe or in US dollar And I think the beauty there is that you as a merchant can accept crypto But you don't have to touch crypto and I think that's a little bit in In contract to what's really happening in El Salvador because in El Salvador You will accept crypto and you keep crypto because you trust this This this currency more than you would trust any other currency like the US dollar and Here at least it's a bridge and I think that's a that's a big evolution And I would like to before I come to my questions And I would like to just say it is not a yes or no It's something also in between so you should make sure that you test a little bit You try to understand what is crypto all about and then maybe you can pay with crypto And at least you see how it really works because it won't really work at the very beginning So don't already invest too much but start small and grow along and Now what is the impact on on postal payments? And that's actually my last slide And I would love to somehow start the discussion because in the end It is you who are going to decide it is you who are going to somehow Shape this future also in your business also in your postal setup in money transfers, etc And so coming back to my question. What do you think about the financial future? What do you think is Bitcoin or other crypto currencies going to have an impact on? can Crypto solve money order issues ethics risks The settlement times takes weeks a bank and institutions that's oh, no, I don't want to send this money to the other postal system Is there an effective? Increase when you use cryptos be it Bitcoin like in El Salvador or be it a stable coin Maybe maybe that's the future and then I also want to add here a little bit Maybe keeping crypto is the better wealth generator if you would have invested Into some bitcoins five years ago. Maybe it's worth a little bit more compared to just keeping the US dollar on the bank account and Then an important element here are stable coins a potential alternative To bridge somehow the traditional The traditional business right now with US dollars and euros, etc to the bitcoins. That's something in between and Maybe that's the better solution for you. I don't know your business that well. I know a little bit about Telecoms and e-commerce and payments But the postal service obviously are on a global basis have huge transactions And I can tell you with the stable coins, but also with bitcoins. It's going to be much easier. I Would stop here. I would like to thank you for your For your attendance and I'm very happy to start the dialogue and obviously continue with them a good good discussion Thanks Armin, thank you so much. First of all, let me let me do this here This is done for all the attendees you're seeing In the audience and I can tell you one thing, Armin We had a lot of payment dialogues over the last weeks and years and We had several times good discussions But we never had 10 questions already when you were ready with your presentation and we never had a live Discussion while you were presenting which was Bordering in sentences like simple banks will disappear and things like that. So while you Presented there was already a very very interesting discussion going on and I'll try now my very best to moderate this Discussion and to find a way to answer the questions for you and good to integrate into this So let me start in different directions the first one is One I really think it's interesting if you use Blockchain for more broadly for postal settlements so between postal operators Would you have to use some kind of stable coin or could you use? Bitcoins, ethereum's something like that. What in which direction would you think for that? Anything goes If you use a stable coin Obviously, then you would have a Same value like a US dollar for example, or you have a euro stable coin or you have Another stable coin so therefore it is just one to one linked But again as I mentioned you have to trust a central body like the issuer of tether or of USDC Which are companies behind it or you have a decentralized protocol So you have to trust the protocol like in a die setup or you have to trust again someone who? from a central bank perspective who is issuing this stable coin and in the Chinese Setup they might just freeze the tokens And I don't know if this is something you would like to have in the end This is your money and therefore I'm I'm convinced that in a public and decentralized setup Cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin or ether are much better But obviously you have to live a little bit with the fluctuation of the value It went up to 67,000 US dollar it came down a little bit a little bit. So yes, that's the little bit the downside But if you change it completely and if you have your view purely from a Bitcoin perspective Your entire life gets cheaper because everything you will then spend in fiat is getting cheaper because the value of your bitcoins are going up So there are many people who just flip it around completely It's a it's a quite an interesting and long-winded jump But it might be the right jump actually for the future It's interesting what me what you need for a new way of thinking If you if you just try to get into that there was another question I really liked is about the affordability So the question is is the Bitcoin technology affordable? Particularly to developing post organizations in the developing countries So what would you think about that? Is it more is it higher cost or is it maybe even lower cost? So some of this is open source some some things are really easy to use So, how would you how would you go into that question? Is it higher invest low invest medium invest normal invest? I would I would personally say but I'm obviously would have to look at it It's an absolute low super low invest because everything is public if you if you if you become participant of Blockchain you for example in a private setup. You just need a wallet This is now BRD is it called on your mobile wallet, but you also can have an address which is in the internet So the only thing you need is internet the second you need is a wallet Which is basically for free and maybe you then obviously have to invest a little bit into security So your coins are not Somehow easy to be hacked. So the access to your coins is easy to be hacked. So I Personally believe it is absolutely Cheaper much cheaper to use Bitcoin as a payment Protocol and payment transaction system compared to any banking system, but Yes, so main access you need is internet and we power And that's it. So it's not not that sorry. It's not that some security probably A very practical question Gustav was answering a questioning Once no, I wanted to invest a while ago into Bitcoins with Bitcoin Smiths But they have raised the minimum amount of investment to a hundred K has this changed Unfortunately not I can tell you it's a it's a it's an issue We have in our company because the onboarding is quite complex So if you would like to get an account with Bitcoin Swiss and also other Brokers in Switzerland that the hurdles are pretty high. So they are similar or even higher compared to a bank bank account And so we definitely had to raise this bar a little bit But I can recommend you to go to alternative players be it on an international level But also on a in Switzerland. They are a couple of providers Who are providing you with with an easy access free access be it on a mobile device? The most important element though is and I just give you this quote from Andrea Santanopoulos who is one of the very important Players behind Bitcoin Not your keys Not your Bitcoin So you need access to the so-called private keys you need access to the to the to the address Where the bitcoins are stored and then you can really claim they are mine If you like someone else is storing this on your behalf, that's a little bit of different setup What we at bitcoins with obviously do as well is that we make this custody as it's called For you and so you don't have to care about this It's like you have a bank account and you have some shares and a depot in there So you have some securities in there. You want to make sure that this it's a good It's a good setup there as well and it's secure But you can do all at your own and the important element actually is with your mobile phone You have an entire bank in your hand. And so yes bitcoins with is one of the brokers But there are many other players out in the world who who can give you access to the bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies But I mean if I got it right some weeks ago was it the month or two ago There is since then is even the possibility to invest in a normal ETF an extreme exchange traded fund on your depot And being part of the Bitcoin universal universal with that, right? I think you don't even have to invest directly you can use the ETF for that if you want to do it on your normal depot That's absolutely right. So if you obviously would like to benefit from somehow the financial potential growth in Bitcoin There's also risk by the way what goes up can go down. Don't forget about this and Yes, there are alternative products, but if you want to own your own bitcoins, then you have to invest into a little infrastructure Yeah Totally different direction Marco is asking let's imagine the UPU wants to create a parallel Bitcoin. What is necessary to do it? Which obstacles which guarantees? That's not difficult. It's not difficult you can you can do so-called private blockchains and They are already available on a global basis So what is what is Bitcoin or especially theorem all about in the end? It is a network of a protocol with computer so-called nodes and They talk to each other and then make sure that the information is shared amongst all the players And so this is called the distribution ledger technology that you basically have a big axels Breadsheet with all the the entries shared and distributed amongst everybody that's how the so-called double spending problem has been solved and What you can now say is you can do a copy and paste of this and just started completely new Amongst the private group. So you don't give access to the public The beauty of Bitcoin and Ethereum is it's so huge the security is basically in the indefinitely high because you will never be able to really Attack more than 51% for example. That's that's what it would be needed that you somehow Take the security away If you have a smaller blockchain only a couple of people are organizing this this can be done as well but then again, you have you have a security challenge you have to overcome and There are blockchains for example in very special situations like Logistics or pharma or also information That are using exactly such a blockchain. It is possible It depends on you if you just need somehow money transfers between one and two You might also just take a Google spreadsheet and say I owe Martin 10 US dollar and he owes me 10 Swiss francs and Martin and AP has to pay to use dollars back and so Maybe blockchain is then not the ideal setup blockchain for me is essential if you are working on a global basis with Partners who you don't know and you have to trust and the protocol itself gives you the trust that's the most important element there and therefore obviously the the Currently public blockchains are very established and you don't have to start from scratch. I would I would use a public blockchain mm-hmm What about cross-border Transaction coming is just asking. What are your view in the main? What are the main risks? associated with cross-border transactions regulatory or others of blockchain or cryptocurrencies, of course Well, cryptocurrencies don't know borders The regulations the regulation though is based on a on a domestic setup and If you if you send Bitcoin to a country where Bitcoin is illegal What isn't happening to the local postal setup? They didn't have Bitcoin, but they cannot do anything with them Maybe they can send it back to burn and say well set me some U.S. dollars or set me some Swiss francs or whatever and so on a On a global basis Bitcoin is really there without borders It can be sent to any any market in any second takes a couple of sex maybe a couple of minutes There are blockchains which are much faster The the challenge is that you can exchange Bitcoin into Money because in the end if you have bitcoins on your wallet and you need something to eat or something to drink or have to pay a rent Or you have to pay salary You have to switch this back into the local currency and therefore what happened right now in El Salvador is obviously perfect So people living El Salvadorians who live outside of El Salvador can send Bitcoin Back to El Salvador and they can go straight into the shop and use those bitcoins to pay for a coffee For the rent for whatever and that's the main reason why El Salvador said Bitcoin is a legal tender and so it comes Cross-border and it can be used on a local basis on a domestic basis And so the question there is those fiat crypto gateways as I called them How do you bring fiat into the crypto world and crypto back into the fiat world? That's that's the challenge. That's why Brokers are there like bitcoins with but also exchanges like Like Coinbase or Bitrex or Binance and they obviously also have fiat fiat fiat gateways there Bringing me to the To the volatility so Sally is asking Armin. How do you manage volatility risk when using crypto in Postal settlements or what you just discussed in El Salvador? So if I if I if I send some money there on a Bitcoin base and while I'm sending it It gets 10% less value 20% less value So we see some volatility in these things. Is it really usable to do that? Aren't there big risks in the volatility of these currencies? Obviously yes, the volatility is there But it will it will flatten out right now. We still see a lot of volatility. That's absolutely right But the reason therefore is you have a huge pile of bitcoins and only a small volume gets traded So the fluctuation obviously with a small amount can go up and down in a couple of years This is going to flatten out because in the end the volumes are huge and also the value is much higher and So that's my personal view by the way I still believe the sixty seven thousand US dollar for one Bitcoin is still the beginning But that's my personal view It is it is obviously an issue right now But in the end it is especially when you're in a hyper inflation markets be it Venezuela be it also in other markets Where access to to fiat is it's quite difficult? I rather live with volatility because it also might go up Versus I don't I just know that my money I have on my bank account just sees one direction And straight down and therefore it is it is on you to decide What you what do you believe I just I just Look back in as my investment did a couple of years ago into into stock Which was fine as well and into crypto and I can tell you my cryptos perform a little bit better compared to my stocks So it depends it depends. So you say in a short wording Inflation is worth then volatility Yes, absolutely, and I I believe with those printing machines, especially in the US and in Europe In US dollar and in in euros. I have some doubts That's the reason why the first chapter was dedicated to what is money? Whom do you trust? It's your decision Makes sense Sergey is asking something before offering cryptocurrency options to customer as customers What do you as a business need to consider that's interesting So if I as my company I would like to offer a cryptocurrency seller or payments for my customers What do I have to think of? You need a wallet Yes, can be here. It can be on the computer. It can be somewhere. That's a long number And that's it Obviously, then you say send me Bitcoin and you can decide for for what for how much it is You can come to Bitcoin's visa You can come to word line in Switzerland and say I would like to accept Bitcoin But I don't like to own bitcoins afterwards. So please Armin exchange them straight into Swiss francs or euros or US dollar That's fine. There are other companies in the world doing this as well By the way, not only us. There are BitPay and Coinbase and others are offering a similar service there as well So in the end it is not that much you need but the Flexibility you get is also something where you get the security at your hand And this means if you have your own wallet with your own keys You have to make sure that no one gets access to this and this means just make sure that The key words are there or the access to the wallet are somehow secured That's the challenge because if you send cryptos to an address There is no one you can call That's the beauty about the banking system if something went totally wrong And I sent somehow I had a fat finger attack and I sent a set of one million Said a hundred million to an address or to a bank account. I can call someone and say hey Correspondence bank, please please send it back. I did the mistake and it usually works In Bitcoin, it's gone because it's gone It's on this address and you can call the person say are you willing to send it back to me? This happens as well by the way, but it takes a little bit little bit more effort I mean, I don't know whether you had a chance to look a little bit into what is happening in the chat It's it's going down down down. There's more comments and more comments and more questions And it's already one minute to three But I would like just to end the session with one final question, which I think it's very interesting How can posts benefit from the crypto currencies is the jig me Tenzin question Some postals or organizations are already into crypto stamps. So how can postal Operators posting companies benefit from crypto currencies. What do you think are the most important points from your point of view? Yes crypto stamps. That's that's a nice gimmick. I was in Switzerland. We have it also just see here NFTs Which are which are definitely also something at least you can also have identity So especially also linked to NFTs could be an identity so you can clearly say if you own this or if you own this NFT Which is a token on this address you can basically identify yourself as the owner of this address, which is something good But it's it's on a smaller scale. Honestly on a bigger scale I I look towards what's Libra and DM tried to do is obviously To support and also what the salvadorians are doing right now with their own jiva wallet and just making bitcoin as a legal tender give access to underbanked and non-banked customers via crypto currencies and I think If if you have if you have a public responsibility and the social responsibility in your markets And it's not only Switzerland. It's not only the US It's not only Germany where you get easily access to a bank account. Obviously. I saw some quite interesting markets here attending this seminar as well it is it is not easy to give those people access and financial inclusion and Especially what happened in an El Salvador is definitely giving this financial inclusion to everybody this opportunity there and Me personally, I believe as a postal union and as a postal Community you should try somehow to make sure that everybody in this world get access to those systems Everybody gets access to financial services Everybody gets also access to send money back without having to pay 10% in fees And I think this should be a part of a global community to say Let's make sure that we get financial inclusion for everybody Who may not really be at the sunny side like here in central europe where you and I are martin and I But maybe a little bit more remote and I think we should we should make sure that we Generate some opportunities For a better world and a better better humanity. Let's let's call it this way I would like to discuss with you for the next two hours But I think these words you just made are the perfect final words for that discussion Using cryptocurrencies using the the technology behind it to Give more financial inclusion and to make it a little bit better world. I think that's a very very good final word I mean thanks a lot for that There is a question whether we can do a second part of this webinar So Sergey I put you on moderator again So if you want to answer that question put on your camera put on your microphone and we would be happy to answer that question They're coming a lot of thank yous from me In case for all the others armin. Thanks a lot for that presentation. Thanks a lot for that discussion Sergey you are on coming. Yes. Thanks armin. Thanks martin Just looking at the discussion we had in the chart and well how people were curious and interested in the topic Definitely, we need to do a second or probably a third and a fourth well Let's see how it will go. So stay tuned. I hope that soon we will come with some news about that I'm sure you will do so I say say thank you to all of you Somebody just wrote it's the most. Let's let's get it right. This is the most Where was that thing? The most dynamic webinar I've ever attended ever So I think I can agree to that looking for the chat looking for for the discussion. It was a very very Interesting and very lively very now. Thanks armin. Thanks third Sergey one again for making this possible And I hope to see you again next year sometime So let's have a nice time over the christmas time over the holidays and see sometime next year. Bye. Bye from all of us Bye-bye Thank you