 when it comes to Mata's jurisdiction of the jury what happened to Honorable Wa salary What happened to Honorable Waлас G wrest cours Happy to have you here I want to begin with you Anita before everything else I think it was the last interview we had here before COVID-19, I remember like a week later we had a discussion in the Kenya's preparedness to crisis and disaster. And I remember I asked you, are we ready for COVID-19 pandemic? And I remember you say this, now it's 100 days plus since the first case of COVID-19. Do you think we have handled the COVID-19 pandemic as you alluded we are ready? Yes, we've handled it flawlessly if I would say. And for me as I, if we compare with other African states, you can look, if you look at your data, even Burundi's first lady was here and a few days later her husband died. And we've been receiving other dignitaries and hospitalizing them, which means Kenya has demonstrated that it can have one of the best healthcare systems. Of course we are not yet there and it is still a pro-rich approach to the universal healthcare. But for me I feel like Kenya is on the right track, we started with curfews lockdown, we've now increased the timing and if you walk down CBD people are doing business. So for me as we wait for the presidential directive I think Kenya is on the right track. I want to challenge you on one thing, the reopening of the counts or the lockdown areas will depend with the readiness of the counties. The counties were not ready and if they were on the 6th of May the president would have opened but at the same time counties were not ready. They need to have 300 beds. We are hoping he will be addressing the nation maybe next week. Do you think the counties are now ready? It depends, some of the counties are ready but some of the counties are not ready. For example I'll take a look at the Rakanizi County, I don't think the county is ready but it has yet to receive any threat because it does not have a lot of inflows. But some counties especially if you look at the neighbors, for example a county like Nairobi which is surrounded by the likes of Kajiyado, Kiambu, where most of the population of the country is. And then when you look at Mombasa, Kualaikilifi, those counties had no options especially Nairobi and Mombasa, Kualaikilifi with the threat of the deputy governor had no options but to be extremely prepared. But now it doesn't mean that the other neighboring counties should not take effect. All right, Kendi, how have you been coping with the situation COVID-19 pandemic? I've been coping like every other Kenyan. How much have you been impacted? Economically it has hit, I think it has hit everyone hard economically. We are adjusting to wearing masks, working from home. But again I would like to, the government has really done well. When you compare to even first world countries like you, America. I mean America has handled it like a third world country. Whereas I can say Kenya has handled it like almost like a first world country. Look at our streets, everyone has access masks at around 30 per mask. We had a period where first world countries didn't even have enough masks for their hospitals. Also I think COVID is a wake up call the world needed. Right now we are not working on our health systems. Right now we really have to work on our health systems. Look at the counties. The counties have received a conditional grant of 5 billion. Which they would not have received if we didn't have COVID. Right now counties are building their bed capacities, they are training their personnel, they are recruiting new personnel. So I think we have handled it well. And it's a hope post COVID-19 all these facilities will not be changed to something else? No, they're not supposed to be changed to kiosk what else. We're really hoping for the best because desperate times calls for desperate measures. So we've run, I think Kenya is a country that operates under pressure. Give me pressure and I will deliver. With no pressure I don't deliver. So we are hoping these facilities will not turn, I'm hoping Hilary will not take the bed and put it in his bedroom. We will start asking where are the machines, where are the ventilators. And health workers. You know especially actually the issue of health workers needs to be looked into because it is it's not only a COVID manas. It's a manas that has been ongoing for a very long time. So how do we keep this? We've employed more doctors under what terms really because we've not discussed the terms. We are giving them money but we've not discussed this permanent. So because the ratio according to World Health Organization, the ratio in Kenya was one doctor per a thousand. Yet we know graduates who are doctors and are unable to find unemployment. So it's my understanding that government has now absorbed more doctors under which condition is it permanent and pensionable. Is it a contractual agreement and as you've said one year later after we've managed COVID are we going to be in a situation whereby we will be like okay now we are okay goodbye doctors have a good life and then we start striking again. And then we are looking also at accountability which even C.S. Mutaikagu has been put on the spot. Accountability in terms of money. He's been asked by parliament to appear several times and say exactly kama nicha ya 40 million. What exactly is that? So apart from the day to day like tea stationery manamaikwere is on the machines, the ventilators. Those special things that we've received we are hoping that it will not land in some private doctors practice instead of benefitting one inch. So the question is now sustainability. Is what we are doing sustainable if we stop receiving COVID funds are we in a position to sustain ourselves in terms of health care management? That's very true. Kendi. We are hoping the president will be addressing a few things in regards to COVID-19. The lockdown, the counties that we are on lockdown and they have had outcrest from the ministry of health especially from the C.S. They have been complaining. Kenyans have now gone back to the norm. They are not afraid of COVID-19. They have now stopped watching the containment measures that have been put in place. Do you think now the Kenyans we are doing something good to ourselves? I actually think the government has done its part in containing the pandemic. But I think we as Kenyans have a lot to do. The masks you find people are not wearing masks. The use of sanitizers. Matatuza not using sanitizers anymore. They stopped. They stopped. The first two weeks when we were scared we used sanitizers now. I think the reopening of the economy will greatly depend on our behavioral change. Actually containing the virus right now does not depend on the government. It depends on the behavior of Kenyans. If we can reopen the economy today and Kenyans are able to contain the virus are able to follow all the measures that we have been given by the ministry of health. I think we can beat the virus. But right now I am doubting Kenyans are willing to wear masks. Excuse me to Ravallia, masks policy. When you see a police officer that's anywhere the mask. I think we are supposed to adjust to these things. Adapt the new social changes that we have. Keep the social distance, wear masks, wash hands and we can beat the virus. But as long as we have to be pushed to observe the measures put in place by the government I don't think we shall beat it. And the government can only do so much. Uhuru ata kujaku pati sanitizer you wash your hands. Uhuru will not come and give you a mask and tell you please wear this to protect yourself. Again Kenyans are not afraid of the virus because of our fertility rate and most of the patients are asymptomatic. So we think that this thing is not serious enough. But Hillary you haven't contacted the virus. You don't know how you will react to it. Maybe you are one of those people who will become really sick or you are one of the people who will become asymptomatic. So you don't want to find out where you lie. So the best thing to do right now is protect yourself. I don't think the president can overemphasize the importance of personal responsibility in containing the virus. The government has done its part. It's time for Kenyans now to be cooperative with the government not to be pushed to do all these things. Let us wear masks, wash our hands so it doesn't maintain social distance. No. That's a personal responsibility like you have mentioned. Anita the idea of having asymptomatic patients being treated from home the government has moved in earnest to ensure they are back home. But we have a word we have some people who are feeling like we won't tell this person is sick but you're bringing them back home. How will we cater for them? It is being said that the treatment and the caring for the COVID-19 patients is expensive. We have vulnerable families. What do you make of the idea? For me the fundamental question I'd like to ask is even when you're in this facility especially when you are asymptomatic what exactly goes on and what I'm getting what goes on is monitoring monitoring to see if you your coughing monetary if you have difficulties in breathing monitoring your temperature and things of that nature. So for me I go with the government's directive that let's free the Kenyatta University Hospital and the likes of Magadi and Kenyatta so that we can take care of them more critically patients because being that Kenya is a young population 80% of Kenyans are asymptomatic unless you have an underlying condition so if we free the hospital because some of the pictures going around you're seeing people are in quotes chilling like they're just staying and waiting for the two weeks kubomua food Yes and eating in fact there's a resident of Kibira who was like I'm very ready to go for this quarantine and here they're eating chicken they're eating good food actually comes packed Yes there is a packed food and everything that you want so for me I think the asymptomatic way is a good way to go but the challenge comes in because I'm taking home care also as self isolation whereby you have your own room your minimal interaction with the family members so if you look at vulnerable families as you've mentioned whereby maybe 10 people or 5 people are staying in one room there is sharing of toilets and bathroom becomes more difficult and our home care solution looks more of a privileged position where somebody can actually afford to stay in their own separate room where somebody can afford the diet because the other question begs are you getting the same food the chicken that is being given to those in quarantine or in hospital care am I going to get that chicken at the comfort of my own home will I get free deliveries am I at home what exactly is the arrangement are there maybe I don't know drugs I'm taking how many days am I being monitored is it daily, is it today am I doing self monitoring do I have my own temperature at home or are they do they have a schedule of exactly how are they monitoring and also the database do I have restrictions I understand in hospital you have restrictions on limitations so if I am doing home care are there restrictions like am I not getting visitors can I go to my local kiosk or can I go to my local pub these tiny, tiny everyday issues so for me home care comes with a kit a sort of a kit to understand exactly how it's going to work yes well, if you want to go to Uji because that is the common thing na kama kimoivi now, let's finish on these COVID-19 issues yesterday CES doctor Masimo Angangi said now the cases or the backstops are the governors now the counties now with the baby COVID-19 being at the labs of the counties what do you think the counties should now be doing especially them that have not been touched by COVID-19 and them that will be affected in any way what do you think should be happening now the counties have been given the conditional grant the national government and the minister of health was very specific it actually gave guidelines on how the money was supposed to be spent they have the number of beds isolation beds that they are supposed to have against a ratio this is a ratio for the isolation beds to ICU beds unit so counties are supposed to be able to manage it they've even been given a further advantage where they can procure the non-forma cuticle items independently from other sources so that they don't have to follow to be slowed down by the bureaucracies in the government so I think if the county governments if the governors are genuine they can actually handle the COVID-19 and that's the only reason that we have been restricted in Nairobi and in the hotspot such because the county governments are not prepared but as long as they are prepared we can now move to the counties because I know if I go to my county and get sick from there my county government has the ability to take care of me alright let's move to what is happening politically and in fact in form of corruption fighting for the last 2 years we have had issues of corruption every project that comes in will hear of corruption actually every project that came in the last 5 years and 8 years to be precise there have been cases of corruption we have so many cases in court right now of every level of office being questioned on money appropriation and just this week last week we saw what happened with Honrabu a case dating back to say 2 years ago they find that has been imposed on this particular persons do you think now the judiciary and it has now become or has gained the faith of the public in terms of applying the rule of law that's a very tricky question because from where I look at it justice delayed is justice denied I would acknowledge that Kenyans are happy some are shocked that actually this case has born frugion but it's a result of a strong ODPP the office of the deputy of the prosecutor and also EACC would we say we really give much weight to the judiciary I really don't think so because if you look at the type of problems the judiciary is having it's crazy from delayed cases cases backlog right now the judiciary was among the first government agencies to go on a go slow after the COVID-19 the courts are closed down which means even cases that should have been tried earlier have been postponed you've heard of LSK CEO Nelson Harvey complaining about zoom meetings he's complaining about it's like the judges don't know how to use the microphones the cameras you're not even sure which judge you are talking to you don't know even which file cases they are looking at or if you're on the same page like in terms of let me call it technological error is also talking about issues regarding like brick and mortar whereby he wants more more courts, more physical courts so I would not really put the good job or rather the persecution of corruption I would not squarely put it on the the judiciary would not give it the benefit of doubt rather I'd give it on the court of public opinion whereby people have pushed for these things to happen and also put the I'd say good job to the ODPP and also good job to EACC as for the judiciary it's a win but compared to what Kenyans want to see it's just a drop in the ocean so I'd say they need serious key institution reforms Kendi this maize scandal is one of the many scandals of maize that has happened in this country and seeing the amount of money these people have been charged by the court of course they will be appealing actually there's a story doing them they will be appealing to so do you think at this point the judiciary in how has the faith of the public now if these people have been done this it will be better Hilary let's first go back to this wa Muki case it dates back to 2004 maize that was supposed to feed Kenyans who are starving this is a case that's being now persecuted in 2020, 2016 months later again let's also admit that the only reason that was seen alone and corruption is because the government has actually admitted that there is corruption and the government is willing to deal with corruption that is why we have a strong ODPP that is why we have ESCC used to be a toothless dog at least now we can see ESCC doing something the judiciary not freely this is a case that's it's actually a case that started by these people being awarded money being awarded money by the courts NCPB was made to pay kina wa luke wa kungu so no I still don't have faith in the judiciary this is a case that had evidence beyond reasonable doubts that's the only reason they were persecuted if there was one loophole I don't think they would have been prosecuted but over time the judiciary always say there was not enough evidence then the question goes to the DPP and the DCI you did not do enough so remains to be the agencies do you think our agencies are well equipped to provide enough evidence for a particular case yes I think our agencies are well equipped to provide evidence do you remember the Akasha case that was needed in America they used evidence that had been gathered by Kenyan agencies but the guys could not be prosecuted in Kenya because of the corruption in the judiciary they already owned so many judges that is why it could not be prosecuted in Kenya I think our agencies are doing a good job but the gap between the prosecution and the judiciary is too big and the judiciary only prosecutes when it doesn't have any other choice and I would not be surprised if they appealed in court and they were given leniency alright what do you make I also want to add that the other problem facing the judiciary is it is one of the institutions that does not undergo any reforms any changes if you look at the legislature I mean after every five years you have to renew your mandate there is always a shifting face of government might be the same people but in terms of government ministries, agencies and departments there is a shift or DPP you remember when new guys come in there is usually like you guys put them on page one there is usually a renewed form of hope same thing with EACC if a boss is changed there is that big deal but you look at the judiciary I mean a judge is a judge a lawyer is a lawyer and advocate is an advocate advocate for a number of years that's why we have senior council that's why we have renowned lawyers even lawyers who are not specific if it's criminal law if it's a family case the same people so what we have is usually a change maybe in the judicial service commission and maybe the chief justice whose capacity is somehow limited and when you look at the case of Maraga who has now like I think four months to go I mean what magic can he do that he failed to do in the previous years at least we can see for Motunga being from an activist background that was the point that differentiated him but now expecting the judiciary to reform right is crazy and that's why they keep on pushing pushing the executive that's the president to swear in the 41 judges and it's not happening because the 41 judges have issues like we are talking about a judiciary handling cases of corruption when the judiciary itself needs to be sanitized think of the year it's a joke it's almost comical now Kristin you mentioned of the judiciary not being okay you don't trust it now there has been law the constitution is there there are acts do you think it is the application of the law that has the problem or it is the persons everything in law is defendable so we only need to have the moral the rulings have to be to be accompanied with some morality when someone steals food actually someone takes a tender to bring in food that is meant for serving Kenyans and then this person supplies air I mean seriously if that person appeals in court whatever loopholes are there in the evidence provided we know that this maize was not supplied so yes in some acts whether the constitution defends everything you can defend everything using the constitution but also in the rulings morality has to apply that these are people who died for not receiving that maize and this is a country where maize has been eaten but any corruption has to be accompanied with maize every year every government every time we have a maize candle that is coming up and that is because of the footage that we witnessed in this ina kwa ga shuwa bet wuking ya kwa maize wuking ya kwa maize wuking ya kwa maize wuking ya kwa maize wuking ya kwa maize we still have we still have kemwareüs cold we don't have kwa maiz kwa maiz kwa maiz Meltzi kwa maiz mono ki me bum죠 Show Law sono kwa maiz kwa maiz do m Panel naturally, you must prove beyond reasonable doubt for any case to go through wether criminal, whether in terms of procedure or substance it must be beyond reasonable doubt. But the other thing which Kendi has also alluded to what they've fallen for is that we're talking about even con- frequ Shapuri. why justice will be denied and why things will continue as status quo is we don't first of all we don't have confidence in the judiciary number one number two sometimes the judiciary offers judgment or even i'm looking at court orders for example currently as we speak the judiciary or one of the courts has suspended the Nairobi metropolitan services you yourself you KBCs in Nairobi you've worked you've looked at what they are doing i know you are seeing transformations in Nairobi in terms of infrastructure but today as we speak NMS is doing whatever it's doing illegally because all its operations has been suspended as uh as we wait the way forward apparently it was illegal the creation was illegal so some court orders are just uh i don't want to say null and void but they are just null and void so until we restore faith in the judiciary whereby one they can deliver timely cases whereby number two they can um they can give cases following give directive on cases following natural law then we would have at least a bit of confidence but as it stands now court orders in even you yourself you you cannot they don't they don't even make head or tail actually now that you have mentioned this happening on uh um i'm forgetting these treats this was uh yeah I don't know what is going on uh and I remember I think it is 2017 uh Governor Sonko was saying he will he will take every every public space that was taken by maybe say these uh investors to back to the public now is it the same thing that is happening because this road is now shrinking and we know every time there is traffic in the CBD or it's just a way of having no parking in the CBD the thing is why are they doing that I haven't seen it because now this is a problem we have and I'll say this because of the public information uh you will see a post uh a building coming up this project is done by this by this but now the public do the public have enough information to question on anything that happens around them and if a scandal comes like the kimoarel they will see a project it will be done by this and this do the public always follow to see if the project that was said to be done by so and so has it been done to accordingly and through the amount that was allocated by that I would like to say that most Kenyans are living from heart to mouth you are so blinded by trying to make ends meet and you're living uh below a dollar a day you're struggling with hiking fairs it's anitization you don't know if you know until timing there are people I know they say it's two two the fair is I don't know what amount and that's like there is a significant different so Kenyans some Kenyans are living from heart to mouth until really that is your business complete maybe it is your house that is being taken until it's your business you have like you have it's not that you don't want to be interested but you're too busy making your ends meet to look at that so I believe that's now the space that the civil society takes because the civil society is the in between between they are paid the NGOs in civil society are paid to look at government if you look at even the issues of the referendum or constitutional changes bbi most of the people that make noise are not individual citizens but rather the NGOs the civil society is the one that will come with education public education uh give the public information you're talking about so if for example you look at the case of gongafsin uh cs kiriako tobikoa said that uh uh the areas are all around gong road uh grabbed forest and there are residentials even in langata that fall within this prism he said that uh he's gonna reclaim all the uh forest um all the forest land and if you look at this it is informed by the work of NGOs that have been working through this sector um even yesterday I saw a feature about Nairobi river whereby NGOs have sponsored young people to go and clean and they're discovering things so expecting a normal citizen to have public information unless this person is an elite or a person who reads or a person like you who is paid to know what is happening uh it becomes very difficult for an ordinary citizen who is making day to day ends meet to actually have the public information unless maybe sponsored by NGOs or unless it falls within your particular sector for example if now you're in environment you would know uh about uh karura forest planting of forest and now what's happening gong forest now okay kendi uh and it has mentioned of the ignorance of the public is due to the hassles and bustles of life is this true you know our our interest in corruption and allegations of corruption is emotional you have to tell me that uh the street in mwing in being what it costs to be that for example when you talk about gong forest you have to tell me which services I have been denied by people who have built in the forest because you have first roused the emotions of Kenyans for them to see the essence the essence of fighting corruption the same with the same unless now you you have to actually put it down to them that when someone steals 30 billion what that 30 billion means to you when someone stole when someone stole around 3 18 million in 2004 you have to explain to them what that 3 18 billion translates to that's the only way Kenyans relate to corruption otherwise when yama jenga hapa this is stolen land they don't care unless you tell them this is stolen land that is why you guys don't have water in your taps that is when Kenyans start relating to that in fact kendi had like to support it because I'm looking at it even some of us seated here I've never even seen one million in their lives and then let's be honest you've never seen one million and I'm talking about billions or trillions so you are like relate to that you can't even relate what exactly is a million even if I drop a hundred thousand here I might confuse Hilary and now we are talking about one million and I've seen even NGOs using hyperbol analogies they say if you kitandi kaiyo pesa kutoka hapa ime jenga na irobitu mombasa highway marata atu and then people like Amazon is thicker road we would have another thicker road in western 14 thicker road and then people are like oh now I can't get because kenya I'm telling you they got between the rich and the poor they hope not even seen uh even a hundred thousand is a lot of money I remember when Kideru was uh was being told he has the students of money and they see you somewhere in westlands and kwa na sema uh what they are saying no you have to explain it to kenyans like that like imagine the kenyans who've not even carried like none you can put money in a bag so you know you know and then remember like even now that you mentioned Kideru remember there was allegation bread a judge 200 million that is before you got into office yes 200 million so this amounts of money are like dreams you know like chasing dreams so for people you're like oh what do you mean all right so in regards to this information to the public do do you think the media can be is doing enough to inform the public or to to and add what is happening around them and no I think the media is getting caught up in the politics that they usually look for the political angle of a corruption case like this walu kule case it's a it's a it's a 2014 it's a 2004 case I don't see the relationship between that that case and his political affiliations but the media will find a way of intertwining it with it's with his political affiliations they'll actually get a list of people who are being who have been accused of corruption and and say that these ones are on this side then make you know the the media does not give you they will not exactly tell you that one one atafutu kwa sababu nua he side they will in sin they will make you think they will they will lead you to that like give you stories of who and when give you a list of six people who have been accused of corruption who have cases on corruption they now leave it to you to decide that so I don't think the media is doing enough to to to to tell kenyans about corruption and again the media needs to relate it to the everyday lives of kenyans when we say that walu kule stole this amount of money show us the pictures of people in 2004 who are standing people who are dying of hunger the the starvation at that time was really bad show us of people who died in trocana because of this money that now we can we can start defending this person because he speaks the political language that i do this person cost life people died because of that because of the money that he that because of maize that he did not supply supplied air kendi is the media uh anita sorry is the media doing enough for me i disagree with kendi i believe the media is doing enough because for me the role of the media is to tell it as it is if you look at the senate impeachment motion against waigoru it was live whether politicians will come and manipulate and tell you otherwise whether waigoru will finish with a statement and say that this is a target of bbi because she supports bbi that's why uh these cases are coming to her and things like that it's up to your interpretation the media will uh do the story do the cover invite hilary will invite me whether people choose to listen to whether kendi will advise or misadvice them is now another story so for me uh the role of also the public as much as the media has its role also the public and the individual has its own role because you have this information it's up to you to see if the information to your understanding it's it's up to you to read it between the lines it's up to you to find out who owns ktn who owns k24 who owns kbc and and notice that kbc will be stating state agenda ktn will be uh stating issues regarding the son of moi and tv would be advocating for private interest agenda so it's up to you as a recipient of this information to see it to your liking to your liking and kenyans are getting more educated so with kibaki came in free primary education and now there is uh all factors constant of course considering kovid but there is more information there is you know unlike the old times whereby we had only kbc as the tv station now we have a variety some we don't even know so every time you switch on your tv it's up to you to to go to the most news what these stories of your liking so i believe for me the media is doing what it should it's up to the public to see the information and also i believe there is a communications authority of kenya which is charged with uh checking media um in in terms of the platform in in terms of content if it's films we have kenya films and i mean there is no shortage of who is monitoring what media is doing so as much as we have the bodies also individuals need to monitor what they get but for me uh in terms of presentation giving us life feedback even lucico there was even social media uh print media and the life coverage from the different uh stations so it was up to you in fact even i even saw like people grilling malala after the whole waigoro impeachment thing and it was coming from well informed kenyas who are like you could you should not have chaired this committee like this you should have done this you should have done this and even uh media is i'm also looking at media from just a social media perspective social media perspective itself nowadays you can even get information from social media even before you go to you you go to mainstream media even politicians are not using social media if you uh the likes of murkomen are using it to articulate their issues and i'll see some of you picking up what they said on and say murkomen had this to say or this particular leader had this to say so for me it's also a personal responsibility of the citizen apart from uh saying it's the role of the media thank you for keeping us company and if you're just tuned in this is why in the morning my name is dereva hilawi we are talking about politics what is going on around you i'm speaking to anitan kirote governor's consultant and christine kendi political analyst uh before we went for that break we were looking into the issues around the judiciary what makes the cases to delay uh the corruption cases how the agencies are equipped are they strong enough how is the media uh playing the role of the watchdog as it should be is it doing enough to ensure that you as the public you're informed of what is happening and are you being uh fraudulent in any case and anita was telling me the media is doing enough but um kendi she spoke of the seizos uh civil society how they are and the other people who inform the public or the fight on behalf of the public now do you think we are at a point where the seizos should now the activism should be increased should there be many in tujuangetu kuna group flani na faitianga like we have this particular person he complains of anything that okay omtata yeah omtata anything that touches on the public you'll be there should we have more omtatas um yes and no no because uh too much too much activism will make issues look like a joke like i want to pave this i want to pave this road you tell me that it hasn't gone through public participation uh that we were not we didn't ask the stakeholders so no too much too much activism will dilute the activism and yes we need a little more activism because i mean look at where this country has come from we are here we are enjoying the democratic space we enjoy because of the activism that was there in the past and right now because of people who fought people afford for the democracy that we enjoy the freedom of speech that we enjoy so yes especially because now we can't rely on our political parties anymore people are vested in personal interests when it comes to political parties we don't have a very strong opposition so the opposition that we don't have a very strong opposition so the opposition the only position that we have right now is a civil society and you can't also don't play the importance of a strong opposition actually i am one of the people who think that a strong opposition is much better than a strong government because the opposition keeps the government in check that anything the government does you know any any procedure that the government missed you know and also know that you don't want to give the government so much freedom because the government the government can disrespect freedom they care you don't want to overpower your government because you also have our rights and you don't want also want to to drive the government into dictatorship we want someone who keeps the government in check all right and even before you respond do you think the country meets baba as your position baba as your position i say i kind of think he's still playing the role of opposition even within government that things things are clear and when he's in government i think there's some integrity that goes with baba that he does it doesn't want to be involved in so much in so much that that kuna malivi to stand around then he's like you know we can do this you know they will say it's because now i'm in government that is where the government is doing this and again you also have to understand that the the corruption cases that we are hearing of right now we there is a possibility that we could never have heard of them the only reason you are hearing of corruption cases is because they are coming they are being exposed from within the government either by the president or by the people within the president is now free he's not afraid of as in for him exposing corruption is not a sign of weakness it's a sign of fighting corruption so he's willing to if someone is corrupt he sacrificed his treasury see yes for corruption he was like come and come and come if he's corrupt let him go that happened so yes baba i think baba is playing his is role in opposition we haven't lost opposition yet okay so anita should we have more citizen activism uh for me i say in fact motuman kangata should open his NGO board branch every county 47 counties every county in fact i've come to notice that this whole activism thing is very strong in western counties or siaya kisumum migori and the likes i don't know it's because traditionally they were opposition parties but if you look at NGO serious NGOs and their heads most of them especially the small civil societies most of them are in western or mombasa and maybe because of a history of oppression mombasa you know of course there's a lot of marginalization so if you look at NGO history you'll find that it's stronger i don't know why kwa kina kendiakunanga NGO in fact i've never even had mandamano i don't know maybe everything is okay i don't i've never had an NGO in meru i've never had an NGO in central not i mean okay in central there is the jiga type i'm talking about a governance activism serious governance activism it's like these things only exist in the in the western regions but anyway for me civil society is a very fundamental part of society and it must be strong in fact if you if you remember 1992 in the fight for multi-party democracy it was the NGOs it was the civil society it was the churches the likes of joya timothin joya kandinal otunga who laid their lives in quotes who fought for multi-party democracy to have political parties and now it's interesting now once we had the political parties i thought the political parties would expand we would have more political parties and maybe less NGOs but today 20 or 30 years later it's like the tune has shifted now we need for me i'd say today today we need a lot of more civil society because we yes we have political parties but political parties that are run as businesses if you look at political parties they are like business of exploiting and quoting a few from keraito he had this bus and you know when you have a bus you get 20 20 bob 20 bob you panda then you negotiate to hauna 20 bob kuna 10 bob 10 bob wengi lakini usi ambiawa 20 wengi so political parties they've become like this bus you know which which uh takes you to the destination that you want to go it has become um in fact the the other day was joking or saying political parties need to be registered as a business be registered as a business even pay taxes because what's going on i mean it's it's a joke parties that had strong standing parties that look at what happened to nak nak gave us a very strong presidential candidate 2002 and now nak is almost on its death bed with only a strong leader that's matakarua but in terms of party structures nak is weak it so political parties have managed to give us illusions it has given us a kuru awkot but after a kuru awkot what else do we have you will know a kuru awkot i know him for this must say swetangula i know him for this the only party that has stood there the test of time i'd say currently is uh kano coincidentally and it might come back and also odm odm is actually one of the most structured parties and are very strong party for that matter but now for these parties to survive they need to have collisions you cannot run in in kenya the history of kenya you cannot run in a political party without collisions now the biggest challenge comes in when you have collisions for example uh the the nasa coalition which had odm a and c why it had a tena and the tena ended about two months ago and now those parties are reinventing themselves and finding new ways to survive or rather to get out of icu they're not getting a breath of fresh air but now the worst case scenario is the jubili collision the jubili party rather where parties are told to fold up come so you have one party but inside the party there are so many wrinkles it's even confusing you even don't know everybody's in the party but they are walking in different directions which is why i say civil society must come because now political parties are it's like in quotes everybody's in government so if everybody's in government then who is the opposition and remember as pa i busy and as the election the official defakto opposition leader currently remember we only had a guru uh uh uh uh 우리 and a kuru waters baba did not in the second second election second election so often so the opposition exactly Ni siinumata. Ko uro Kutansu ni wa kwa kwa kutubu receivedi. Too matisha, jufua sva kwa kua kwa kwa kutubu ka kwa kshitu. Ia mifatu norma kwa kakna wazo kwa kutubu sa kodubu kutubu kwa kutubu kwa kutubunia, kwa kutubu kwa kutubu kwa kutubu kwa kutubu kua. kutubu kwa kutubu kwa kutubu htia low na colisi. Bibiistiyoia na mifuda kwa kutubu kwa mifuda kwa kutubu kwa kutubu kwa kutubu kwa. wiki talibotwed amb fishing kwa kwa div climeku nangatia tika lo headed oveni kwa wiki kwa yumsutwat kwa militiupbeat wa wiki wa, kwen tanda ya na nisha nila kwa k opinions hiqa ki Senjia hiqa kwa kansi na nii mwave, kwa wia mwave kwezi ya na nniko wula kwa kansi kwezi niru, kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa wila kwa kwa wila kafiza ena ku nii na yo ki wika yu na na kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa wila kwa kwa kwa kwa kenya isu kwa kwa kenya iya kwen kwa kwa kwa kwa kwa kenya isu I tell you everywhere, in terms of finance, budget kisomwa leo when ukuri yatani finish reading the budget. Already NGOs were telling us, Institute of Economic Affairs, the likes of Kwa Mewino, they were telling us 10% has been put in health, 20% has been put in manufacturing, this does not make sense, more money should be, you know, always putting the government in its toes. The government is always in its toes. So I think for me civil societies are very big factor and it needs to grow, to expand. I am for it expanding especially because the position of political parties is now watered down completely. We had parties that stood for something. I mean NAAC stood for change, it stood for reforms, it stood for economic recovery. It stood for something. But the current parties right now that we have, we don't know what Waipa stands for. We don't know what ANC, when a party stands we need to know. ODM it's known for referendum. You remember it first came in 205 when there was no or yes, there was oranges and bananas. That's when ODM came up and we say, oh ODM, Fodkenya, we remember very well, Fodkenya came as a result of when Raila broke, broke away from Kano. So we had parties that you would say, what can I associate this party with? But the current crop, I saw TSP something, I can't read. TSP, no, from Fodkenya. T-Service party? The service party. Sorry, sorry, sorry service party. Yes, the service party. Which service? Okay, whatever the party. What does that party exactly stand for? Did they give you a vision, a mission that you can remember? In fact, when you see you remember, but this guy was the CS, we had issues of locust. But then what happened to the locust? He had the GNU. So what is this party being formed left, right and center? Like we need, we need, and especially the problem is what is the ideology? What does this party stand for? When you're having a collision, it's not because you come from Meru another person comes from Western and then now we want to have a collision. No, it should be, you stand for, you know, ideologies. And you speaking of parties and I know many youth right now are forming a party because 2022 is coming. And this was the question I was asking, should we better the parties that are already existing or should we have new parties, especially now that I know a group of young people, a number of them they are forming parties because they feel oppressed. In my opinion, the old parties and I've always liked to give an example of South Africa and Zimbabwe. If you look at South Africa, the major political party that has been in the scene is A and C. And if you look at A and C, the bureaucracy for Malema to get where he got at A and C, it was trouble. As we are speaking today, Malema is about 42 years old. If he was A and C would still be the youth leader at 42 years old. And the aspirations of a political party is for you to get into leadership. But then our structures in the old, I'd call the old political parties, kama chama zikona wenewe. It's such that there are always blocks. Blocks kuna wenechama. What are you saying? How will you cross this other bridge? Which led Malema to break from A and C and form his own party, ELF? Is it ELF? Yes, he formed his own party and his party has gained a lot of traction attracting very many young people. So the problem with big parties, I'm talking about ODM, Jubilee, you enter, you enter as who? It has its own owners, it has its own kujwana enepotizim. The chances of a young person rising out of merit, it will take a lot of years. And the young people you are talking about, most of them are heavily borrowing from Malema. They are saying that Malema has done it, he's gotten to this point. Malema Kevin can even say now I want to buy for presidency and things of that nature. Then we go to Zimbabwe, we have Zanu PF. Zanu has been like the oldest party, the party that fought for democracy and the likes of Chamisa, the opposition leader against Mnagangwa, he said look at even Zanu PF, even when Mugabe left, they didn't bring a person, a new person with fresh ideas. They brought Mnagangwa, his interior security minister. Someone who knows the system. Someone who knows the system and people are loading to it, Zimbabwe has not changed. It is business as usual. Why? Because even if there is a change, it is still the same person. Come to Kenya now, even Kano itself is being run by the son of the former president, Daniel Mui. So that whole change that even if you go to these parties, the guy who is running the show for you to break the bureaucracy, then the young people are calling for change. So if you want change, that's why they are forming their own political parties. But the question is who is the sponsor of that political party? Kendi, should we have young people having their own political parties, especially at time like this, you are looking to 2022 where they will be forming parties for them to have the position of leadership? You see that's where the problem begins, where we form parties just, a party whose vision is two years from now, they don't have a vision beyond 2022. The vision is how to get into power and from there probably join a bigger party. Again, the other mistake that the youth make is fighting different wars, fighting wars from different fronts. They should actually borrow from parties like Jubilee and ODM, like all these parties that have been formed by young leaders, let them all form a coalition and fight a united front. When you form your party, I form my party and it forms a party and then you are fighting this one big party. We are actually empowering this party because the party will come to you and tell you, so we need to give you a position. And according to you, it's better having a position as number 10 or 15 in that bigger party than you fronting your own party. So forming more parties actually we can see youth more than it strengthens them, yeah. All right, as we come to a close, we had last week, the media was treated everyone with the glare of everything that was going on in the Senate and actually for the last two weeks there has been the cleansing of Jubilee House and now actually there's a story in one of the dailies about the Jubilee party awarding the wiper and ODM for the loyalist coming to the Jubilee party and this is something that people, they were expecting it to happen, but the cleansing, the cleansing of the Jubilee party, Anita, was it okay? Did they have any mistakes to be treated the way they were treated? I think for me it's perfectly in order for the president to get his house in order. When you go to your house and you find that this table is not functioning the way you wanted it to or the purpose of the table was to hold tea, water and you find that the table has cracks. You have no business, but to remove the table, get a new one or even stay without a table. So for me I think it was timely if you want to pass legislation you don't want again to deal with rogue fellas or fellas whose loyalty is a bit skewed. They need to be in a straight line. A general must have all his positions in check and for me I think it was perfectly in order for the president to clean his house and in the words of Ronald Reagan politicians must be changed whether they're in positions of power or positions that require a constant change for the same reasons that children's diaper must be changed. So for me I believe that it's appropriate for the changes to be made. It's appropriate that we have new blood, we cannot have the same people for a long time. It doesn't matter how much good you present and if the president has an agenda which he has among them, BBI and the big four agenda and he's likely to bring legislation especially executing the executive orders that he's been issuing and they need legislation approval through acts of parliament and the guys charged to do the same are wishy-washy, cannot be trusted. I mean if there is mistrust these people must go. If their loyalty is unwavering they must go. Okay. Kendi, did you believe child needs to be changed the diaper? Oh and I think the president but to be the only person who's actually interested about this country. You know he's in his second and final term while everyone else in parliament is thinking about not just parliament and everyone who wants to come into parliament is thinking about 2022. So when you have both houses where people who are heading committees and committees are thinking about how they're going to advance the 2022 agendas you have a legacy here that you want to live and these people are not going to help you win your legacy. I don't think the changes for the president were very political. For him it was about advancing his legacy about service delivery about you see motions were just being motions were just being prevented because the president haja ungeana hawa watu haja fanyanini so they were delaying service delivery for the people they were delaying everything and the president is ahead of the Jubilee party. The Jubilee party is a ruling party so when you have people in the ruling party who have decided to be opposition you give them space to go and become opposition get your new people who will because the president does not sit in parliament the only way he will have his motions passed in parliament is by having his team that has his vision sit in crucial committees in critical committees so I think it was timely he's the leader of the party he needed to sweep that house get the noise out of that house we have more commotion when the ruling party is pulling from different directions than when the opposition is pulling from different directions because the ruling party has the numbers so yes, he needed to do it. Alright, as we wind up with Uaigoro having been cleared by the Senate do we have concerted efforts to fight corruption by all the agencies and even from the houses? Yes. I believe yes, yes we do and the issue of Uaigoro and especially counties specifically fighting they said corruption between governors and MCAs I think we need to do something because no sooner had Uaigoro been mentioned now I've seen even Charitingilu now I've seen today in the morning I had Isyolo governor also the MCAs yes the MCAs are now saying so this whole business now it's becoming to be really honest it's becoming malicious the MCAs are out here looking very funny because at every so you want to say at every twist and turn if the governor wants this budget and you feel it's inappropriate at every twist and turn the MCAs are fighting their governors I mean it's a joke and also considering that it's the people who elected it's Wanjiko who elected these governors then you want MCAs as the representative and according to article one of the constitution whereby the sovereignty of the people is instituted either through representation which is by elected leaders or by one person one vote but now the MCAs are becoming like hecklers because when the procedures are different the reasons are different I mean Senate needs to institute a legislation as soon as yesterday whereby they give the appropriate procedures from point A to point Z how exactly do you impeach a governor and why because we don't want also governors to be at the mercy of MCAs if the MCAs say we want a budget of 500 billion or 500 million the governor goes ahead and gives it because the governor is always afraid I'm going to be impeached I mean the the governor cannot be held hostage by MCAs it cannot work so there needs to be some sort of law to to regulate this relationship because I mean it's not becoming a joke no one is taking it seriously in fact when Waigoro went to Senate some are even questioning the procedure of Waitito some people are asking by the way how come how come the Waitito case went so fast of course we know there are political motives but now I think the same way it's very difficult to impeach a sitting president is the same way it should be difficult to to remove a governor and also let Wanjiko get what they deserve if you elected someone and now you have a change at two years we are saying no complete the term sote pamoja 2 million you said yes we have concerted effort first of all I think Waigoro's impeachment was very genuine that when I expected the MCAs impeaching her to mention issues affecting Wanjiko expected them to mention how Waigoro has not implemented the ADP has not implemented the CIDP but they go and mention that Waigoro has not held the annual what was it the governor's state yes the address then they go ahead and say that she stole 10 million shillings not stole she traveled she traveled but did not travel and it cost them 10 million shillings when you have governors the samboro governor who stole money with his deputy he see his county secretary and six others he sees but has not been impeached so when you find someone like Waigoro yes Waigoro is not easy to work with but that does not worry me actually what worries me is is the governor's that have not been threatened with impeachment because it means this governor the the MCAs are very comfortable because the MCAs and why are they so comfortable so these are the governors who are being impeached by the MCAs are actually might be the governors that are working because the MCAs are not eating and not because they're not eating they want to replace the governor with a deputy governor who will who will feel like he owes them for giving him this position now he will allow them to eat again it also gives impeachments expose governors because the deputy governors are thinking for example Waigoro does not look like she'll come back so the deputy governor might want to serve his two years before they live together so he might go and talk to MCAs and tell them sasa see we impeach this person and then it also puts the governor the massive MCAs that every motion that the every budget that the governor has to pass the MCAs have to be their pockets have to be filled properly then now we can pass this motion so no one is interested about what Angiko is getting in Kerenyaga I think no one is talking about the Kerenyaga people and the Kerenyaga people need to be very careful and start demanding for service delivery from the MCAs in fact can you remind me for example the impeachment of Waitito and then the deputy governor becomes the governor Nyoro and then you are like you guys came you were together you are the same people you are in this together and then how is it a remedy yes because the question is how is it a remedy okay the governor has been impeached the deputy governor becomes governor but these people campaigned on the same platform same vision same vision same political party same budget same ceases same CEOs and then you come and say oh now we removed Waigoro now that yet these people if you ask me it's two sides of the same coin so it's really a matter in futility all right kendi actually there's someone following called keeping it teach seirol hope he says he's following the conversation and he likes it the okay this should be the opinion of kristin and kendi and Anita you should be giving your number those are the people watching us from home I don't know whether we have other comments but anyway you find a comment kendi my final comment is these impeachment things need these impeachment impeachments are becoming a joke we need to give I actually need to give the governor the five years if you are not happy with the service delivery we shall send them home in 2022 but let us not expose the governors at the massive the mcs that now the impeachments need to stop we shall be in a five year campaign period where the deputy governor is campaigning to to replace the governor then from there the mcs are threatening the deputy governor because they're not happy the deputy governor so we actually need now to find to find other dispute resolutions in the county assemblies that do not involve impeachments for me my final words it's to senator Cleopas Malala the first thing he should do today morning I don't know if they have a senate committee is to introduce a bill like yesterday or an act of parliament that shows the procedure of impeaching a governor because it's very sad for you to have a special senate business committee and then you're being crucified for the decisions of your committee members as the chair which means there needs to be a procedure so that when we attack Malala we are not attacking Malala as Malala we are attacking Malala for following the procedure but as it is now he even risks losing his seat in Kakamega because ANC was like we do not we are not party to this this guy is representing the party in the wrong way so for me advice senate as soon as yesterday to at least in 2020 to have one of a bill a final bill that shows us exactly how we are going to do with impeaching these governors all right thank you I was hoping you give keep me teach your number otherwise for you keep me teach and every other person who has been watching us from home thank you so much for keeping us company they have been my guest Anita Nkirote political analyst and kristin kendi political analyst as well I'll be seeing you again later in the evening my name is Dereva Hillary have yourself a very good day good morning