 So, yeah, my name is Imogen Flub Murphy. Everybody calls me Imo because it's just easier to pronounce. And I have worked within Red Hat for 12 years and IT generally for nearly 23. And because of that, being a woman in the IT industry for such a long time, I'm a really strong DNA advocate. It's why I wanted to have this meetup. The, and those of you who were here last year will remember this story that the year before I was lucky enough to go to summit and present on women in IT. And it was the last session of the last day. And the immediate feedback that we got from everybody who was in the session was, why couldn't we have done this earlier? Why couldn't we have done this sooner in the conference that we would then have had all these people to talk to in the hallway track to be able to just chat with and go for a coffee with. But we'd not met them until the last day. So at that point I started, I came up with this idea to have a DNA meetup. This is the second one we're doing. And obviously the first one in a virtual world. There is no presentation as such. This is just a place to come for people who are passionate about DNI who want to see who else is here and chat. I have a few topics for us to talk about. And so if you are not one of the nine that we can put on camera, put your hand up or feel free to just join in in the chat and to answer the questions or comment on what other people are saying. First of all, I would like to throw the floor open to everybody else and anybody who would like to introduce themselves to the group. And now is your turn. And if not, that's okay too. Let's go. You're muted. The catchphrase of 2020 and 2021. I was just about to say that. Yeah. Hello everyone. My name is Alifka Marikova. I'm part of the DNI, Bernau work for Red Hat as a project manager and about introducing myself while I'm representative for neurodiversity community, Bernau and Red Hat. So if there is something that would, you know, be related to that topic, feel free to reach to me. I'm very happy to chat or we can chat here, of course. Oh, Jen, I can see you have the dafcon cup, don't you? Isn't it a beautiful thing? It is absolutely beautiful. It is. I really like it. I love it. That's all for my introduction. Just feel free to reach to me if you would like to. And thank you. It was really nice. I'm really glad we were having this session. This is, this is a really nice and safe space where we can talk about all of it. I'm very happy that we have this on the conference. I think it really belongs on a conference. That's for sure. Happy that we can do it online even. Hi, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Marina. I'm based in Boston. I'm part of the new DNI center of excellence in the office of the CEO at Red Hat. So if there is any sense that we can do from that point of view from that new DNA initiative at Red Hat, please let me know. Also, I've been supporting DNI at DEF CONC and DEF CON US for a couple of years now when, when we're in person. I ran the diversity scholarships program, but also supported the code of conduct speaker coaching and attendee coaching initiatives with speaker coaching being run by Eric Erlundston and by Lenka who got involved with the one at DEF CON CC and also speaker attendee coaching being run by Carson Wade. And also the other things that I'm involved with is outreach and I'm going to plug outreach in chat right now is the time for you to apply as a mentor for it or until February 22nd, outreach applications are open for people who want to participate. So if you know anybody who wants to get involved in open source and doesn't have a job now that that's a really good opportunity. I'll go ahead. Hi, I'm a garden. I am fedora's community action and impact coordinator. I'm also on fedora's diversity inclusion team, and I provide support to them. I also have mentored for outreach a couple sessions in a row and I'm going to be doing that in the upcoming round, a design internship so excited about that and also fun fact. I was introduced to fedora through an outreach internship myself. I'm a speaker and I'm your moderator so just as a note to the cats. This one here is kip. And this one over here is Finn, and they're not meant to take away from the topic they're just wanting to snuggle because it's still morning here in Colorado. Finally, I'm going to be watching the chat channel to see if anybody has any questions that we need to bring into the room. And if you would like to join the video and audio, you're more than welcome to do so you just have to go ahead and share your screen, or not share your screen share your video and audio and we'll let you in. And we can hold up to nine people so feel free, no, no pressure, but also we'd love to have you. So, no, I see all of Steph and Jen. And everybody else in the chat so maybe it's you. I had to disconnect my VPN before joining because it was complaining about my bandwidth for a video so that might be the hint is, if you're on VPN just disconnect that straight to the internet. Right, so anybody else want to introduce themselves before we move in. Hi, I'm stuff. I lead a portion of Linux engineering at Red Hat. I'm interested in the diversity of engineering teams in our company and and making sure that we can. We can connect to the projects like outreachy and others where there's people who are not white males I guess diverse folks who would like to join would like to be brought into our industry and our ecosystem. And so that's why we say hi. Well, thank you for joining everybody. I think we can get started on the questions part of the topics. And I guess the first question that I have for all of you is do you feel like the new normal this new virtual world that we're living in has improved, or reduced the amount of inclusion that we're seeing. So inclusion seems to be the hot topic at the moment. It's not just about getting diverse people into your groups into your teams. It's also about making them feel included. It's it's improved or wasn't the situation for inclusion. Silence more participation in fedora. So I'm not sure like in the different fedora events, though I'm not sure how inclusive those are though I suspect we're reaching a lot of folks who weren't able to travel before. So, I see it as more inclusive and we've had people asking to continue some of the online events, even when we go back to, you know, in person thing so I think it is more inclusive. I would agree. Oh, Carrie and Anthony. Hi. Hello everyone. I'm Antonio. I worked at that for four years. I spent half of the time in redhead Italy and the last two years I relocated to Czech Republic. And I have just joined diversity and inclusion group in the know so I'm very new. But I hope that they can also help and make a contribution. I'm trying to think about the question that he was just asking. I think that for some aspects, there is more inclusion. Like, for example, one of the thing that I noticed I started when I started with that I was a remote so I always work from home. And I have met my team for the first time after maybe 10 months, eight months nine months, something like that. And I have noticed that there was like it was difficult to feel part of the of the community, which is in redhead, right. It was surprising for me when I went to the burnout office for the first time and I've seen and felt how it is there. So what I believe is that now the fact that everybody's working from home has increased the awareness about what is what about remote is right. So this is also some form of inclusion, because it's, it's somehow putting everybody to the same level and also pushing the people that are used to work together to do something to recreate that feeling, and it's touching also those that were not used to that yet. I am in the, I am an engineer so I am I know that many people in engineering are fine working, let's say somehow alone or working from home because our work is not all it doesn't always need interaction. I mean, you can do it via email you can just find this kind of agreements. But personally, I was really missing the connection with people and I can feel it now that there are so many activities. So this is one way where I think we are more inclusive. And it's great also what Mari was mentioning I also tend to agree but we also need to be careful to bring these feelings and also like to bring this awareness in the future like when we will be able to all go back to the communities. So that's the, the thing because also, when you open to people and they feel more involved, it's also then worse to step back and lose that feeling. So we need to be very careful to, to the suspect I think I have a question of, do you feel, does anyone who perhaps wasn't able to travel as much before now feel more on even footing, because everyone is in that position. And maybe someone who was only able to work remotely before never went to the office now is on more stable footing, because everyone is in that position. I think there are many reasons for one person not to be able to travel and I don't know all of them it can be also mothers that have kids so of course it's it's maybe hard for them and they will feel more involved and we shouldn't use it as a reason for not traveling I think we should still try to maybe find a solution to make it more and more available for everyone, if it's possible I mean there are situations when it's really not possible but as much as possible we should push for people to leave that experience rather than having it as a fake one, let's say a survey and then I have to say that sorry I'm also not native English so sometimes I might use the wrong terminology. You're doing great. And, and to me, sorry, it is I think exactly the right word. Actually, with travel. So my role is one that doesn't travel, but I would travel quite a lot personally. And so the last year that for me has really been impacted. I've not, I've not been home for the past year. In the Czech Republic, the UK is home. And I've not been able to go back, which is perhaps not around inclusion but it is something that kind of sucks. And I had a bunch of travel planned for last year that was changed because of the new. I think Justin mentioned a good point that connectivity can be a huge disadvantage for some that we are now also reliant on the internet and having good internet connections and the right equipment that if kids are disadvantaged that they're not able to go to school right now because they don't have the right equipment to do so. So I guess it brings up different levels of inclusion, but perhaps we haven't seen before. So I guess the next question that I have is, what does inclusion actually mean to you personally, and I'm going to pick on something Marina. What does inclusion means to me. You know, being able to participate in like in our case like development of a project in a community at work. Without really mattering like what background you're from without being confronted by bias. Yeah, I'll just start with that. Yeah, I just don't want there to happen that I will jump into someone speaking so I was really hesitant to start. I would Marina said I will second to that and only add that inclusion is like feeling of being welcome being included, but also including myself. Yeah, there are two aspects and I think I will. I just throw a ball to Antonio because some time ago we had a chance to discuss the inclusion from the other part from the include yourself part. And that is something that Antonio wrote a really beautiful article about that. And we will be maybe distributing later. So I'm thinking you would you would you would you mind to say something about the self, including part of inclusion. Yes, thank you. I was just also hesitant because I wanted to be a space to others as I was already talking a lot. So, yes, I believe that where there are two kinds of inclusion one is more related to the infrastructure. Let's say to external factors which is like, yeah, I don't know. I have a disability so I talk for myself but because it's my experience like I don't I don't want to touch topics that I might not know that well. So just for that reason. And yes, of course, if it's not wheelchair accessible, you might not be allowed to go there. So this is the infrastructural aspect of inclusion. But the part that Alicia was mentioning is about the feeling and it's just what what I was trying to highlight in my article is that it's really complex. Being inclusive is a hard work because you really need to keep in mind many things to be careful to so many aspects and and it's really easy to make a mistake because you might consider one aspect but not another one. I don't know what the other person is living or feeling so it, it, it requires a like it can also be scary for some point of view right just I want to be inclusive but I don't know how to do it, and I don't want to do mistakes. What we can do to help to include ourselves is to somehow proactively help the person that wants to be inclusive. And how can we do this we can do this by understanding, first of all, that it's a person and the intention are 90% good. And if that person is making a mistake, we, we can maybe help understanding it or we can just, this can be a mistake for us but not for another person so we don't also own the absolute truth. So we can just somehow forgive that mistake and not react, defending ourselves or stepping back because after all, who is losing is us, because we are missing an opportunity if we feel offended if we step back if we put some distance between us and the other person, after all, both of us are losing and it's not necessarily true that that person wanted to exclude you. I think, to be honest, for example it happened to me. Many times in my life that I simply forgot to ask if in a place where there were stairs, right. I don't know at university, some friends were organizing a party inviting me, and I did not ask if there were stairs, and I could see the people feeling bad about it there and I could not walk upstairs. It was like they felt bad for it so the same way as I can forget and I leave it every day. How can it happen, I mean, it's easy that another person cannot think about it so we don't have to feel excluded we have to push ourselves and say hey can we do something to make it easier for us to for me to join to be part of you. Again, this is one example related to the infrastructure again but or the disability but I think this can happen also for other types of inclusion is not doesn't have to be related to only to my personal experience. When we see a situation that is causing us some discomfort I think what we can do is think about sometimes when we did the same mistake or something similar or just a mistake when we maybe offended somebody we really didn't want to do that. And maybe this will help us to be more understanding with the other person and make a step towards them rather than than back. I don't know if I made the point if I. did you do surely did thank you very much I really am glad for all the all the stuff you said. I don't know where to start because I would just a second to maybe most of the points and trying to self include ourselves is also part of it thank you for highlighting that part. I believe that part of it is kind of the aspects of creating psychologically safe space, where we feel like we can express ourselves. Yeah, and I'm touching a little bit something that will be on Saturday morning, they will be a keynote where I am co presenting together with a mall together with sorrow Finn, and we'll be talking a little bit more about that. But yeah, expecting the good intention that's that's really definitely a big part of inclusion isn't it. And on the other side of this I wanted to say that organization like organizations thinking about inclusion was its red head or like deaf conference organizing and you know if we like already like know those best practices like make sure there is a wheelchair like like things of wheelchair accessible, make sure there is a room for breastfeeding parents make sure like, you know there are non gendered bathrooms like for like a lot of it is for physical events. But for, for online events, it could be having like text, like being written down about like what is being said right and and then that could also need to be optional, like people like who have attention deficit might actually wanted off like not having to be there by default. So thinking about it from organizational perspective is also really important and that's also ties really well with like the diversity inclusion communities that we have at red head like, at least has mentioned the diversity community. There is another community that soon is going to be launched for people with disabilities there are many communities we have and part of it is like I think that that's where having a community where you and other people with similar concerns can can talk to each other and can also partner with red head and bring up those things that that needs to be improved. So that you don't feel alone and so that there is this connection with organizational inclusion, like where we're trying to glue this all together. And that one thing in so many ways in open source. We are in places where where we're expected to take initiative. Sometimes inclusion is making it clear how to take that initiative. For example, I mean the simplest way is a contributors document, but even in your teams or your project or wherever, making, making it clear how someone who might feel like an outsider or might feel like people are excluding them can get involved clearly. And those taking those steps. Sometimes it means a little bit of process. Sometimes it means taking a little bit of time to write things down. And that those steps bring more people in who perhaps are not all of the of the type where they can boldly just charge and try things and be willing to fail in many of our communities and also many of our teams. People are hesitant to speak up in a chat or or post something for fear that, hey, it's going to look weird or it's going to look strange and and removing that barrier by, by, you know, whatever the little mechanism is for participation is very inclusive. I agree with all of you. Thank you. That's awesome. I, yes, absolutely. Making it easy to contribute in somebody's comfort zone is something that is very helpful and very inclusive. And helps towards psychological safety. And that psychological safety I think is what people are aiming towards that you feel like you can contribute without being laughed at without people criticising your English if you're a non native speaker. Whatever it might be that helps you feel comfortable and welcome and that you have a place where you fit in. So, one jump into my notes. Do you think that there is more we can do, especially in a virtual world to be inclusive of folks who perhaps can't make it to conferences, or is that is there more that we can do is there things that you think are obviously missing at this point. I stumped you. We can maybe come back to that. No, no, you didn't see I was thinking how blunt did I want to be or how direct. Right. This is a safe space. I know I guess I've been a bit of a woman in technology for like 25 years now, and it's, we've been talking about this stuff forever and I'm, I'm almost at the point where I'm like, oh, we have to stop talking about it and we have to actually start doing it. Right. And I feel it's not it's not that we're not doing it I just feel like it's, I don't know if it's changing anything, and I'm worried about that. I don't, I don't see it changing. I see us, I see more people interested in it and talking about it. But I find myself sometimes frustrated by the fact that a lot of the folks coming into the conversation are asking questions that have been answered from very, very long ago and it's almost like we're similar to a lot of last year during a lot of the black lives movement in the United States when one of my very, very close friends who is an author was on her Instagram and saying, I'm not here to educate white people on why I am impressed. And I feel like I'm not trying to compare the situation with that one but I feel sometimes I'm in that space where I'm constantly having to answer the same questions over and over again. And I, I'm frustrated by that. That's all. So there's there's me and my true and honest self. Oh, I, I hear you. I've, as I mentioned, I've also been an IT for 20 something years. And those explanations never seem to go away. But with the increased interest. The increased interest from allies, it's felt for a very long time that it's been the diverse communities who are discussing this and screaming in the wind about it. But the more allies that we get on board to come and talk about it and spread the news with their peers and their ilk. Hopefully the less people have to answer questions. That is, that is my hope. Marie, I noticed that you muted yourself there. I did. Oh, I, I guess I just had a point. I'm missing something. I think that was the question and we've been all over the place but I still think there is a matter of representation. That's missing. We don't have everyone here yet. But at least in the fedora community, that's how it feels. And I think the reason is, even, you know, folks like us who are working on making more opportunities, it's really about the culture once people arrive. Are they feeling comfortable once they have arrived in that space we've made the opportunity for them to be there but are they comfortable once they're there once they've, you know, finish that internship once they have done that, you know, XYZ thing and it's over. Do they feel a part of it. And I think it does come from talking to those people more listening to their stories more and trying to make the spaces that I mean it's an usual question but right but the representation I think is the point I wanted to really bring up. Hey Justin thank you for joining us. Hey. Thanks for running a little late there but got my coffee and my dev comp mug from last year. Nice to see a lots of familiar faces. Again, and some new ones to maybe I should introduce myself to. So my name is Justin flurry I do a lot of work in the fedora community where I've been working in the mind share part of our community with comm ups and marketing documentation for the last five years. Currently I'm, I'm working with the on the fedora council as the diversity and inclusion advisor there. And recently I just joined the chaos project, which does open source metrics as their internal DNA liaison for an upcoming DNA audit on their community. So out of that in my day job I work at the UNICEF office of innovation as an open source technical advisor where I help coach startups and UNICEF country offices on open source best practices and how to be inclusive and building communities or getting involved with existing communities. Thanks. Glad to be here. Thank you. You mentioned Marie representation. I, my feeling is that it's getting better. For sure. If we look at recent changes. Red Hat with the women's the DNI VP so Denise retired. They actually had a good number of people to choose from, whereas five years ago, I couldn't imagine who else would have taken that role. Whereas this stuff so I believe that we're getting there it is a bit like pushing a very heavy cart uphill. And I'm pretty sure, like Jen, a lot of us are kind of tired. paraphrasing a little bit, but just of the work taken to get there. So are there ways that you could be supported in getting that representation within the federal community, looking a little bit outside of red hat. Well, I was just thinking about it a little bit further and I'm like, we actually have seen increased participation, specifically from women. I think that was something that we've put some effort into. I would say like at our yearly conference we had a percent increase maybe every year over the six years that I went and I started maybe there was 10. And the last year that we had an in person conference there were maybe 30 or 40. So, you know, I was a span over six years, but that's just one category. It's not very intersectional because it's to be frank, mostly white European and Indian women that are coming and participating. So, still, it is not fully representative of, you know, the global breach that Fedora has. So, how can we, what kind of support can we get that is a great question. Well, we do outreachy, and we have had some really good opportunities to connect with some folks who are minorities or underrepresented in our community. But like I was saying before, they don't always stick around. And that can be because of. I think the fact that we're overwhelmingly. We have some strong groups in specific areas where it seems like we've done well, I think we're very underrepresented in Africa's and some areas and impact seems like Latin America and North America and Europe we do pretty great. That's a good layout I think Justin might be able to confirm or deny. Yeah, no, absolutely. Like, I was just coming back to that that piece on like what what is missing or what are things that we could do to better fill that gap. And like to me, I think there's two, not that there's only two but just two kind of pillars here around like one thing is bandwidth and connectivity, knowing that some of us are engineers or system developers some of us are project engineers or event organizers. There's all these different ways that thinking about connectivity and access can we can build that into the work that we do as system developers and engineers. How often do we take into that consideration of this use case or different kinds of use cases that are different from our own or even a single client or, or single type of end user. So beyond just those those often go beyond just that one client or just that one type of end user so really trying to think about how often do we take those considerations and actively instead of passively. How do we try to build those perspectives into our projects and then if you're an event organizer thinking about platforms for engaging your community, trying to think about low bandwidth platforms for people who have problems with connectivity is a huge thing, leads into the second piece I think is like multiple means of engagement, because in fedora we have all these multiple decentralized pockets in the community. And, you know, I think the feeling on the fedora council is that we just can't manage all these different communities and all the platforms and all the places because it's just, it's huge it's a lot of work. So what we have to do is empower and train people who we feel like our good models of the good stewards of our community can use and in our project to go and lead in those spaces. So, bringing it back to like what can we do better how can we be more inclusive. It's like mentorship, helping train people up, just like Steph was saying with documentation earlier like that's a huge. That's one huge piece of that being able to train people up to fill in these roles and empower them with the knowledge they need to get to find that confidence that's that's really important. I just want to bring it one step further. I'm reading an interesting book called Hack and Diversity. I don't know if anyone's read this book. I just started it so I'm not going to give a, like a glowing review or anything but the author makes a really interesting point about also like when we come to new spaces or we're trying to create these opportunities that we're also not imposing our culture on these other places as we do that, so that we're allowing it to to be a way that they're using the way that they're using the technology is best for them, not best for us. So that it's called right here. And it's kind of a seems like an academic, it's a little bit tough to read, but it's interesting so far and I think that's a good point like when we bring our open source thing we kind of have a culture that goes with it. That is maybe central around, you know, European and white and North American culture. I guess that's something that actually pinged my brain a little bit because we, I was working on another conference and we were talking about collecting DNA information and how to do that in a way that wouldn't be offensive. And, and not, you know, like what's the language that we're meant to use and we actually had a long conversation about the fact that the entire organizing team is from the United States, and how we view. What that word means is different for other countries and we wanted it to be a global conference and so if you're asking somebody if they consider themselves diverse, and they're from India, and they, they, they're not in India, but they are in the States. It's a it's a hard question to figure out how to ask somebody to get the answer that you're looking for. And if you're not careful as an organizer you could become very focused on what your lived experiences and not where somebody else might be and how they think about themselves. I am going to read that book. Thank you for sharing it. I'm also going to read that book. Thank you for joining us there. For Red Hatters. There's a book club and also around that we just started it this week. You can join us if you want. Please. Okay. We'll do. So Amy's mentioning that in the open stack diversity surveys, they quest asked people if they felt they were a minority. I think that's, that's interesting. I know, looking at it from a corporate point of view, asking those questions is easy to There's certain aspects of diversity that are easy to see. Male female color race. But there are many hidden aspects of diversity, I think that are more difficult to ask about. And that people are less likely to be honest about, I think there's more stigma attached to those. Amy, how did you handle that. Yeah, so we, this was our original survey in 2017. And we had a very diverse and global group putting the survey together. And we realized we couldn't ask everybody. necessarily, are you this race or you that race. So we came down to having to ask for feelings. And to make the point that you just mentioned someone in India maybe the majority but when they come to the United States. They're a minority. So it was, do you feel like you're a minority in your group or project or your company or whatever. So, you know, we took it to that next level, even when we updated the survey two years ago now, we wanted to add more racial questions. And we could not find a global list of ethnicities to use, because the only ones we could find were the US census which again we're biased. So we couldn't. So even though we wanted to ask more specifically, you know about race we couldn't or ethnicity. So we again went with the feelings because, you know, it doesn't matter if you are the majority. In one place if where you currently are you are a minority, and therefore you feel like a minority. So that's why we ended up going more with feelings than with statistics right there. We also tend to do a lot of questions that are, you know, here's a choice, but also another so that people can fill it in. It does mean more and work on the back end and we actually utilized chaos which I'm a member of the DNI group with Justin there, you know, and had people sign NDAs to actually go through the information. So you can take advantage of projects like chaos who do metricing when you do need to go to open ended. But sometimes what you run into is unless you have someone who's really going through and looking all the tags and all the answers. You have two people with very similar questions if you just, I mean answers. And if you just look at the responses and they're slightly different. Someone might miss that they're actually talking about the same thing. So a lot of work goes into being more open with open ended questions. But I think the data in the end is valuable. And then when we try to take these DNI surveys out into the larger world, like we were tweeting we were doing everything we could get to it. We had the same time we have to be anonymous. And there were some responses that I hope we're not part of my community and I really do not feel we're part of my community, but it still felt bad reading them as survey results. I think it was just someone who said saw DNI survey go bad on Twitter that people were asking to, you know, for responses for, and they answered, you know, so they could be hurtful, because at least as someone in my community, I have never seen anyone be hurtful like that in the community. I think anonymity has a lot to answer for people say stuff because they think they can. That's, that's very interesting. I'm looking forward to reading the link that Jason has shared in the chat. Around the learnings from. Obviously, I can't read that now. Maybe do you want me just to summarize that would that be helpful. That would be very helpful. Thank you. Yeah, so the context for this was the Linux foundation reached out to the chaos DNI working group because they wanted to better understand. I don't know if this was for like a coup con or a Linux fast. I don't know what invented was I don't remember that but they wanted to better understand their attendees and so they had run some questions that they wanted us to look at. We shared feedback. They ran the questions and they did get some feedback from people who filled out the, the registration form and the key takeaways are recommendations that we made that I think were most helpful was we were asking for clarification from people who were filling it out to leave an opportunity to, to say if these questions felt intrusive, if they had that feedback there was a way for them to share that. So reframing the question about people's identities into how we can better accommodate people like how can we better help you attend versus. Tell us what you have and then tell us your, your, your disability and that might not be able might not be everything you need to know how to accommodate them. The last thing was trying to group the question away from the demographic questions and trying to group them in other categories like so if you're asking about food for your event will group food, like food intolerance questions with food questions. Don't group them in like a about about you, or about about the person filling out the form. That makes sense, but those were some key things that we got from the feedback there. I thought we're really interesting about how to approach asking these questions. It's a very interesting approach. Marina also shared something in the chat around questions. I think this is comes from. It seems like it comes from summit or from dead comp Marina. Yes, so that questions that I shared in chat that comes from redhead summit question for when people were putting in proposals. You know, like just understanding that diversity, like being from underrepresented groups could spend so many different dimensions. Some of them there are restrictions like I don't believe you can ask if person identifies as somebody in the LGBTQ community in Europe for example. Right. So, so, so, so you know while we're like mostly across the globe comfortable was being asked our gender, even race and ethnicity are a lot more sensitive for example in Europe and so so so basically we were looking for a way to. I like to know if people who are putting in proposals are from an underrepresented group without them having to disclose any personal information and was being like as broad. You know, I really like what Amy said about like, how do you feel right. And so being as broad as possible, but but but also given people some I like idea right like something to hang on to. And so we ended up with this question that that basically asked if they belong to one or more under groups underrepresented in a technology industry, and then said that they include but are not limited to people with disabilities people with neurological differences. And so on and also like, you know, we did some like very broad net things like people who don't have higher education or people who are first generation college students. But but also just like, you know, hopefully being clear that that it's not limited to this list this is just examples, and then people just had to say like, yes, no prefer not to answer. So, what we've been doing is for deaf con CZ we've only asked for gender. And of course, always optional, and for deaf con us have had both gender and racism city questions. You're not allowed to. And it's interview you're not even allowed to ask if somebody is married in Europe so we've had the cats making an appearance and it's nice to see the dogs also represented there. I had a quick question. And I dropped it in the chat to have folks who uphold code of conducts are or do moderation on variety of platforms. Have you seen an increase in incidents over the past year during coven slash culture wars. I'll answer that from open info foundation. We were really expecting issues when we brought up the inclusive naming and we had a lot of public meetings at our PTG our forum, and even at summit, except for one or two people. We could explain to them where we were coming from that we weren't trying to censor anybody but you know where this was coming from. And I think except for one person who did not want to actually meet with us anonymously because again going back to people protect themselves and anonymity. We said, we don't want to email it with you we are willing to meet with you and discuss this and see your point of view, but they weren't willing to. But yet at the same time we thought those were the going to be the most contentious sessions to take place. And everyone was polite and well behaved, except for a couple people in either pad. So no one who was willing to show their face really objected or caused any issues. So I think the issues we're going to see going forward are more of those type issues. Because of COVID because we've decided to implement these type of things. And it just happens to be during COVID. So, as we implement. Naming and other efforts similar, there are going to be people who disagree. But again, I do not think those are COVID or because people are locked up in their house type issues. The reason I bring it up is because in fedora we absolutely have seen that we're, we are working on any code of conduct, but it hasn't been rolled out yet. We had over two times the number of code of conduct incidents in 2020. As we did in 2019. And sent to us was looking at your code of conduct to improve theirs. Yep. Up into this point, they have not had at least anywhere for people to go with code of conduct issues, and they're working on that. So interesting that because. I mean, yeah, it's so good. And then sent to us had nothing. So they are looking to improve what they're doing. Well, I think it's because fedora is a more of a people community. I think sent us is it's large community, but it's less people focused. I think there's more of that interpersonal dynamics, people feel personally invested and like their identities are wrapped up with fedora. So those emotions kind of start coming out, but I mean, we had incidents over a variety of of topics. I mean, everything from gender identity to racial topics to people, you know, mental health topics, like really a broad scope of things occurring. And I think it's because the fedora community is just so large. And also, I think it's because we have the code of conduct, and we've encouraged people to use it. And they're like doing that. It's become a little bit more than what it used to be. So just curious if other community organizers are seeing even those types of conflicts, maybe without, you know, code of conduct in places moderating like misbehaving that kind of stuff. I wonder if that's also due to people feeling more comfortable complaining about the, you know, for most of my IT career, it's been a well that's just, that's just the way it is. There's no point in complaining about it because I'll be thought of as a weak and feeble woman who can't stand up for herself. I am anything but. You know, so I think I do wonder if that's because people you created the safety of being able to report it so people are making the most of being able to report it and feeling safe. And so that's a compliment in many ways that people are able to feel able to complete to complain. Jen has just pinged that we have two minutes left to the session. So yes, I am going to wrap up. Thank you so much for joining us today. This was a really enlightening conversation as it was last year. Look forward to doing more of these hopefully maybe even a combo of virtual and in person. And I would love to see more of these other events too. I think that this is something that we should be advocating for many of our events on the first day the opportunity for people to talk to meet and chat about these things. I think this has been fantastic. Thank you all so much for your time. Feel free to reach out to me if you have any questions or feedback on on any of the things that we've talked about today. It's been a real pleasure. Thanks very much for coming.