 The federal government has warned political, religious, and opinion leaders in the country to stop making inciting statements capable of setting the country ablaze. Joining us to discuss this is the Chairman Christian Association in Nigeria, Kaduna State Chapter Joseph Hayab. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you very much for having me. It's interesting that the federal government is asking that religious leaders and of course other leaders watch what they say and this is because we are in the midst of a very sensitive situation causing, I mean we have issues of insecurity. We have ethnic tensions in the south, in the east. We have, I mean it's a pot body of issues. Is it wrong for the federal government to be asking that you watch what you say amidst what's happening in the country? Even though Christian Association in Nigeria does not really like where this is going, but what is wrong with what the government is saying? Well, government have tried to rule Nigerian inter-religious council, that is Narek, to clear the ear that they actually never said what is being quoted. What they are claiming to have said was simply to appeal that in the situation that we are today, people should be careful, should mind the kind of words they speak. But let's be honest to ourselves as Nigeria, who is really making careless statement today in Nigeria? They are the spokesmen of precedence, spokesmen of government, spokesmen of people in power. They are really the ones making careless statement. And number two, people are really in serious problem in Nigeria. There is insecurity, there is hunger, there is joblessness. There is so much problem on people. And a hungry man, an hungry man, a troubled person, the best he can do is to actually express some kind of feelings. The inability of such people to express concern, to express worries, will only add to their anger. So I have not seen anybody making statement in this country that is capable of destroying the country. If anybody have done that, then they are the spokesmen of government who do not seem to care what Nigerians are going through, who do not seem to carry the feelings on the ends of Nigeria. And sometimes when they are going to make statement, they make statement as if nothing is happening. Show me a man or a woman who will be happy when she listened to the spokesman of government or president speaking as if her child is not with bandits, her child has not been killed, her husband has not been kidnapped or her child, her husband has not been paid. And she knows very well that he has not been paid for months. So these are the kind of things that I believe governments are supposed to be warning and asking their spokesmen to be more humane in their approach to Nigerians' cry. But to come out and ask Nigerians to stop making statements because it will destroy Nigeria, there's nothing that will destroy Nigeria because nobody has ever made careless statement as the current government in Nigeria. When they make the statement in Nigeria, it was not destroyed. So why did they feel that Nigeria will be destroyed today? Because they are in power. I said no to that. Do you sincerely think that there are not people who are taking advantage of the situation that we have in the country to make very insensitive statements? And I mean, there have been some that have been reported where I mean, I'm just saying, do you think that there are not people who have taken advantage of this situation? Riding under the wings of insecurity, the ethnic tensions, those who are asking for your renation and those who are asking for secession in the Southeast, you do not sincerely think that there are people who are taking advantage of this situation? I'm not sure if you quantify or you look at the weight of words that are being used today and you can compare them to what was used within the late 2014 and early 2015 before the current government came into power. They used more horrible, more terrible, more words that could tear this country apart. If such words never tear this country, they even told lies in certain places. They brought propaganda just to display to the government. You see, the problem with life is that life is about karma. Whatever you sow is what you reap. If you think you can use mouths to destroy others, others too can use mouths to show you that you're not doing what is right. And today, Nigerians are not just talking because they want to destroy a government. Nigerians are really crying because they are events. Do you call cry as people trying to destroy the nation? No, people are genuinely complaining because things are not working well. So simply if government want people to stop complaining, let them just do what is right. Address the insecurity, address the poverty, address all the concerns of the people and people will stop talking. You can beat a child and stop a child from crying. I have not seen anything happening today that's old, people saying it today that was, was not said in 2014 or even 2013 to 2015, early 2015. So please let this government be honest to herself and remember that she also write on such ladder to become, to come to power. We are not saying that people should give them on the same point but we are simply saying that the promises they made to Nigerians, the things they told Nigerians, Nigerians could have, Nigerians are not saying it and we are crying. Let me use the example of Kaduna for example. When we started crying in 2018, 2019 about Bandit 3 and kidnapping, we were called as if we are alarmists, nobody listening to us. Today, what we are crying and asking government to do is what has actually consumed the entire state. Had they been government listening to us at that time and at responsibility, they would probably not be where we are. So when Nigerians were citizens and saying something is wrong, do something because we feel we are not secure. They are not in any way asking you to share your power with them. They are simply saying, do what is expected of you as leaders. Do what you took on oath by the constitution to do. And once you do that, the same people who are complaining will clap for you. I have not seen any statement that can destroy Nigeria. The fact that we've had worst and Nigerians still remain. So please just open, government should open their ears and listen and that will be the best thing for them. So you seem to think that government has paid deaf ears to all the cries and the calls of Nigerians. But do you also not think that government is doing its best in terms of dealing with the issue of insecurity? Being that, there is actually nowhere in Nigeria that there is no form of problem. Let's not even say insecurity. Like I always say, if this pen were to spin on the Nigerian map, wherever it faced, there will be some form of crisis or insecurity. What do you think the challenge is? Because you seem to think that government is not listening. Because if they were, we probably would not be where we are. What do you think the challenge is? Because I do not think government is hard on hearing. But what exactly do you think is the reason for us not getting the reaction or the action that we need to deal with this insecurity and of course every other problem that we're facing as a country? There is no political will to address these challenges we are facing today. Government have only been paying lip services to the issues, take advantage of national functions and make statements without properly backing those statements in action. If government had gone after bandits, bandits within have been having a few days and tormenting Nigerians the way they are tormenting them today. If government have actually come out to address poverty, today wouldn't we have pulled the way we are today? The truth about it is that government have come up with so many programs. But the programs ended up just enriching few government people in power and their colonies, not Nigerians. Sometimes when this government announced billion and you just wonder whether billion is just one naira or two naira because sometimes they will tell you they've spent billions attending to youth and go to the street and ask youth and you'll be shocked that not even 2% of the youth get to know about those billions but they say they have beneficiaries. They will even come up with some kind of phantom or kind of fake list that you cannot even imagine where they come from. So truly speaking, nobody, people are willing to support government. People are even working to support government. People have come up with different activities to support government but the reality is that government should look inward whether the things they tell people they are doing, people have benefited from it. So when people do not benefit and say look, you promised us employment, we've not benefited from employment. If you really know that you have employed 2,000 people or 2 million people, find out from that department who are the people. I am privileged by God to have participated in a program recently. They nominated us, that is the SPW, the special work project that they did and they requested that about 1,000 people should be employed from every local government. That story is a shame. I participated up to today in the Kaduna State people are still calling me because you know how I can try to do my best to be playing with people. The employment itself, the way they manipulate the exercise, the way they change the names, the way they siphon the money. I know that the minister as a person did everything humanly possible to see that those who were really shortlisted got the money. But I want the minister to know, let him quote me, that many of them never got the money. The fact about is that I still have the list of the 23,000 people that were recruited in Kaduna State and not up to 50% of them got that. So this is what we are talking about. So when we come out to cry, we are only simply telling government what you are telling us you are doing. It's not reaching the masses. It's not going down. So calm out and change. I'm sorry Reverend, let me come in there. I just want to push you. What you told me now is not that government isn't doing. It's just that we the people are part of the problem. That's what you're trying to tell me. No, no, no, no. Those who are directly responsible for giving the money to the government. Just hold on, I'm going somewhere. You just said that the minister tried his best to make sure that those people get what they are supposed to get. But then it means that we Nigerians, whether we work in the civil service or the public service, we're part of the problem. NDE is not we Nigerians. Sorry, who are the people who work in the NDE? Are they from Ghana or from Pakistan? NDE is the National Directorate of Employment appointed by the minister. Who are the people who work there? Are they from Ghana? Are they from South Africa? No, it's not about the people. The Nigerians are there. This is where we call leaders to take responsibility. If I give you an assignment as the minister and you fail, I will fire you. If you will not resign honorably out of shame, I will show you the way. In this country, people with impunity, cheat fellow citizens, siphon what rightfully belongs to citizens, and nobody can question them. So we only keep crying. So who do we complain to? After all, we did not appoint the person. He was appointed by government. So who do we try to? Do we just cry to the Director General of NDE or to the State Director? No, we have to cry to the government that appointed the DG of NDE. When I speak about, you see, because I don't want to generalize that everybody is wrong. I should be able to commend K. Homo for his steadfastness in returning the program work, but within the system, this same system of government, the program do not work. Now, why is it that government do not come out hard on them and say, wait a minute, what we are hearing from the grassroots is that what we entrusted in your care, we do not deliver. So when you go to NDE, they just tell you some stories. The only person you can cry to, we never voted for DG NDE, but we voted for Moabudu Bahari. We voted for the governor of Katuna State. Those we voted for, we need to cry to them. It is their responsibility to listen to our cry and say, wait a minute, is it true that this exercise we gave you never reached the people, set unindependent people to investigate? And if it is found out that it is true, those people should cough out the money that they have taken. How on earth a man who is receiving 500,000 or 1 million error is entrusted in just that 20,000 that we'll be giving to a common Nigeria? What a wicked lifestyle. I'm more curious. I want to move away quickly to your state now because we can't just talk about government and not talk about the governments that are mostly directly responsible to us in that state government and local government. Let's talk about Katuna State, for example. It seems to be the playing ground for these bandits. It seems to be, it's becoming gradually, if it's not become already a free for all for bandits. So one minute is the NDA, another minute is schools. It's every day. And it seems to have become a big business for these guys. And who knows who's also joining in the party, whether they're bandits or not, because this seems to be a very big and thriving business. What is the challenge of the Katuna State government on the El Will Fire? Because he seems to have been talking tough a lot, but we do not see that same fire hitting the bandits who seem to be coming every other day. You see, that is why sometimes it is easier, or talking is cheap, but action sometimes is difficult. And this is what we are learning. In Katuna State, our government have shown that the bandits have overpowered them or have overwhelmed them. They really have no answer to what the bandits are doing. Today in the state, we are at the receiving end of the bandits. The bandits are treating citizens as if we are not citizens because our government can only back, but they cannot bite. But having said that, I think we have a responsibility, all of us, to walk to put these bandits on the run. But the government must also show the will and the desire to walk with others to put these bandits on the run. Banditry, as it is now, cannot just be destroyed or be chased away by military alone. You need the support of all stakeholders. You need the support of the community people. You need the support of virtually everybody. Today in our state, people are actually living in fear. People are living in anger. People are living in pains. When you look at the previous years, we've sucked so many teachers. It's previous years. We've done so many things that ordinarily, instead of uniting the people, we have segment and divide the people. And you know bandits will thrive when they find out that there is already a division in the community, when they find out that no one is even willing to put his neck for the state. So I think the governor has a responsibility as a leader to be humane and to be humble enough to say, wait a minute. I sometimes go to that I was going to do it. I can do it on my own. I have tried everything and it's not working. Can we all come together? What suggestions do you think? What are those options do you think we can do together too? Please, anybody who comes to give me support, I will ensure I secure him, I protect him, I give him cover until we put and get rid of these bandits. But when you find out a leader, every day comes out to the media, instead of fighting the bandits that are killing his citizens, his busy accusing interest groups in the state, calling them names and tagging them enemies, they just wonder, how can they be enemies? No, they cannot be enemies at all. They are only people trying to express their concern and expressing their concern. We come back to the same subject we started. The problem with Kuduna State is that failure to listen to people, thinking that we know everything, we can do everything, then everybody does what? Since the bandits now realize that there is a gap, a charge in between the people and government, then the bandits now begin to inflict pains on the people and by indirectly inflicting pains on the government. So I want to appeal to our governor just be humble enough to be human and be a true leader. Come back to your people and say, wait a minute, I am your governor, I'm just first among people. A governor is not a super human being, he's just first among people because every other person can be governor, even not today, tomorrow, another time, another year. Someone may not be governor, his child may be governor, or his grandfather may or his uncle may be governor. So let's work together as a team. We've had so far enough. Today our schools are closed, children cannot write proper exams, people live in fear. Many of the markets have now been closed. When you just hear close, close, close, that means in Kaduna, education is closed, business is closed, peace and security is being threatened. So many things are closed. Can we continue like that? I want to still appeal that when we vote for leaders, we vote them to represent us, we didn't vote them to become our idol or gods. So we can talk to them. We talk to them so that together we can confront the challenges of our community and address it. And I believe we can address it. I have told people who care to listen that there was a time in Kaduna state that Kaduna suffered some of the things we are suffering now. But when there was a deliberate effort by those in power at that time, for nine years we were able to sustain peace until we come back to this drama that is going on now. Can we learn from the lessons of those nine years? What did we do right? How do we get those results? And go back to it and even improve it so that we'll get better and faster results to address the situation we are facing now. Well, Joseph Hayab is the Chairman, Christian Association of Nigeria Kaduna State Chapter. Thank you very much for speaking with us. We appreciate it. Thank you too for having me. And I pray that God will give Nigeria peace and understanding. Thank you. Well, we'll take a short break and thank you for watching the whole show. When we come back, I will give you my take. Here's my take. We see what's happening in different African countries and we wonder to ourselves really what the challenge is as a continent. We're praying every day, we're hoping, we go to church, we go to mosque, we pray to our gods asking for a better country, a better continent. But are we doing what it takes to give us a better country or a better continent? We're quick to say we condemn this and we condemn that. But when we look within ourselves, are we doing right by our country? Are we doing right by our people? Are we doing right by our continent? We're very angry when the West paints Africa as a dark continent. But are we willing to light that candle and brighten up the continent by doing right, by putting an end to corruption, by putting an end to dictatorial leadership, by putting an end to people who think that they are the only voice that should be heard. We should do as they say, but not do as they do. Until we have leaders who have people at heart who intend to really change and damn the consequences. We're never going anywhere. We're going to continue to see these bad leaders and bad leadership and cool attempts and drama, bad governments or breakdown of economy or systems. It's a shame that we have judiciaries that are, I mean, literally, we need to use a thread and a needle to tack it together to work. We're seeing all kinds of court judgments, one from here and the other comes out to get on the same issue, different court orders. It's so ridiculous. It makes jest of our judicial system in this country. And the same goes for our legislature. It's a robber stamp legislature that we have. We've not had any better. It's unfortunate that we can't even look back and say, oh, we had a better Nigeria in 2010 or in 2011 or maybe in even 1999, because when you look at it, it's the same thing replicating itself over and over again. When will we really change and begin to play on the level of other countries in the world? Are we going to keep making that excuse that our democracy is nascent so we can continue to wallow in our mediocrity? It's a shame. But until we wash our hands of that shame and begin to lead like we want to be led, we're going nowhere. I'm Mary Anacom. Thank you for watching.