 We've talked about the advantage of this, the problems of the excessive use of the B-pera, the B-perfect, is they lose contact with their real self and also the people they or could can do the people they are in relationships with. So in other words, the B-perfect client, yeah, like you just talked about and that's the things out with us, I can often feel those people that I don't really know them. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is the therapy show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to episode 61. We're flying through these Bob, I can't believe it. And the topic of tonight is going to be working with the perfect client, which is all about our driver behaviors. We've got five. So me and Bob are going to be talking about our drivers over the next five episodes. Yeah, five episodes. I was just thinking, did you say number 61? 61. Gosh, that's getting on. My age is 71. So 10 more get to my age. 10 weeks and we'll be hitting your age, which is interesting. Don't you think? Yes, yes, yes. I mean, as you zoom on, as we zoomed on to over 100, we'll see how old I am then. Well, but the theory you picked is interesting, which is five drivers. And the driver theory that you're talking about comes from transaction analysis. He does. You and I trained in. And Eric Burns theory around what he called drivers. And driver theory really is mainly about what we do in response to our parental commands from our history to get recognition. Yeah. So, so what we're going to talk about here is be perfect. But as you quite correct, there's five drivers. Burn talked about being perfect, trying hard, hurrying up, being strong and please other people. So they're all defense systems and the all ways that child learns how to get strokes or recognition from the parents, because they don't want to, you know, go into the don't behaviors, sorry, the don't injunctions, which we can talk about later. But we're going to start be perfect driver. And from very early age, we start to learn that being perfect pleases our parents, which is an interesting one. And so then we can recognition. And then we carry out those these drivers, if you like, throughout the rest of our life. And be perfect is one which is often linked with the obsessive compulsive traits that people have or the obsessive compulsive character. So over to you, because you sent me some couple of a couple of pages on this, which must come from TA today, I think, which I hastily have didn't have time to read because our son in law arrived. But let's start off. So how do you see driver behavior then Jackie? I love driver behavior. I use it a lot in the therapy room. And I think clients quite like it. It's, we've got access to all five of them. But I find that people usually have a couple of default ones that they use more often than the others. But for me, we kind of it's connected with scripted stuff as well as personality types. But it's when we're stressed or overwhelmed or tired, or there's something going on. For me, I think we tend to revert back into that old patterns of behavior, exactly like you said that we got recognition and strokes for when we were growing up. That's right. So if we're dealing with be perfect, I link it into many different personalities, but specifically obsessive compulsive characters who have an internalized parent, which they experience as always judging them, usually negatively. And being perfect will quieten the parent, if you like. Yeah, which resonates with me because my part of my personality is obsessive compulsive type. Not that it's a disorder or it's diagnosed or anything, but I do like things to be just so. So my be perfect driver pops up quite a lot. In fact, before every podcast, I've got my notebook out. I've got everything down here. I've got the books that you were referring to earlier on. You can see this if you're watching on the YouTube channel. I like to be organized for things, which, you know, that's my be perfect driver coming out. So for me, I know when I was younger, I did get a lot of recognition for maybe not being perfect, but doing a good job. And when I work with parents, I talk an awful lot about praise for being as well as praise for doing. I think I got a lot of praise for doing good stuff, you know, for achieving at school and being the best that I possibly could rather than just being me. So being perfect is impossible. It drives you, drives your behaviors a lot. Yes, yeah, yeah. Being organized and being good enough and all those sorts of things. So, of course, there's positive parts in that. And of course, the big, the biggest positive part, actually, is that you're pleasing the parent. Yes. The parent doesn't negatively criticise you. Yeah. Basically, the psychological level. And of course, it's got you where you are today, in many ways. It has, yeah. And I quite like it. I, you know, I don't think I'd change it. When you say for pleasing the parents, I think it's, you know, interesting or important maybe to remember that we're talking about our internal parent, often as adults, it's not our actual parent that we're trying to please. It's the internal dialogue that we have going on a lot of the time. Well, yes. So I'll say a little bit more about that one, I think. Yes, psychologically, that's correct. And I'm glad you said that because many of the clients that come in the room, of course, the parents have died or not there or absent or whatever way to look at it. But of course, many parents are still alive. Yeah. Yes, we're pleasing our internal parents. You're correct. And also, it's maybe enacted out with the real parents. Yes. Yeah. It is with mine all the time. I can give you lots of things where my mum has been quite judgmental or critical on me because I've not come up to standard or her standards, maybe. Yeah. So the positive parts are that it gets us by in the world and gives us the strokes, like we've just said. And also in your case and many other people's cases, positive parts that they are quite comfortable with because it's meant they're successful in life. Yes. Yeah. Okay, but and often, though I think that way clinically, I think more about how the be perfect may inhibit, you know, be perfect driver behavior, may inhibit the actual sense of being with the client. And so that under stress, being perfect becomes the major goal. And in that, they may lose contact with other people. Yeah. Yeah. And I think in the therapy room, it does play out quite a lot with the client as well. Not wanting to get it wrong and, you know, doing therapy right. Is there a right way to do therapy and things like that that come up in the therapy room? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And the problem is, yes, let's start again, that gets enacted out in the therapy room. Yeah. It's also played out in real life in relationships and friendships, etc, etc. Now, we've talked about the advantage of this, the problems of the excessive use of the be perfect is they lose contact with their real self and also the people they or could can do the people they are in relationships with. So in other words, the be perfect client. Yeah. Like you just talked about, and that's the things out with this. I can often feel with those people that I don't really know them. Yeah. Because their energy is being perfect and projecting on to me this internal parental figure from yesterday. So it actually don't see them. Yeah. I see this be perfect driver instead. Yeah. So the therapy in that case would be around looking at the defences and the be perfect driver. What's underneath it? And then the therapy will be there. What's underneath the actual being perfect driver so that the person real self comes out worse than all. Yeah. Which if and when that does happen in the therapy room, you know, for me, and I've witnessed it a lot of the time is there's an awful lot of shame when that defense does come down that they've been authentically them and it's just not good enough a lot of the time in their eyes. Well, for the internalised parent. Yeah. Yes, you're correct. It is in their eyes because psychologically, you know, they they need to please or get the strokes of these internalised parents. So yes, shame often comes with it. Yeah. However, link to drivers and we're talking that a lot about this in the next couple of podcasts with the five drivers is burns ideas of injunctions. Yeah. Can't really talk about drivers, but you can by yourself, but we need to link them with injunctions because they sort of go together. Definitely. Yeah. Injunctions are an easy way to think for junctions are the what I would call the no messages was not allowed from the internal psychological parent. Yeah. So this isn't a podcast on junctions, but I'll just give you a few don't exist, don't be don't be who you are, be what I want you to be, don't feel. Don't we could I could list them off. Yeah. Yeah. All those no messages, they would get criticism for if they did feel, for example, or express feelings or et cetera, et cetera. So they they they so they inhibit driver behaviour, like would sort of be perfect say here. Yeah. Where they will get strokes, so they don't have to displease the parent. Yeah. Injunctions and drivers go together when we talk about analysing spit behaviour. Yeah. And they're a really useful tool. And again, you know, when we're talking about injunctions, it's not that our parents say to us, don't exist, don't feel, don't be you, don't be close. But their behaviour says it to us is kind of that unwritten message that we get from our parents. You know, I can remember if I was sad or angry when I was growing up, you know, my mum would say things like, don't be sad. So it's not that she told me not to feel anything. But for me, I know there were certain emotions it was acceptable to have and certain emotions that maybe it wasn't. So you learn over time how to be in your own family. That's right. And very Eric Berne looked a lot about injunctions being nonverbal. Yeah. And drivers being verbal. Yeah. So the injunctions like don't express feelings or don't be close to people are actually modelled nonverbally. Yeah. That's a really good phrase that modelled nonverbally. I like that. They're much younger. Yeah. Much younger process those injunctions. So then the child learns what they can do instead, usually verbally. Yes. You know, you must do really well at school or make sure you, you know, you, we're talking about be perfect here. You have to do it perfectly otherwise XXX. Yeah. So they learn to, and you were talking about your case here, the person, the child decides, I'm going to get recognition, I'm going to get stroked, I'm going to get praised if I do things perfectly right. Yeah. So that type of child's parent will be something like, well, I don't know, the kid gets 99% out of 100 for their history exam. And when they come home, and, you know, if I was to think of my daughter doing that, there'll be a lot of praise. But the sort of parent we're talking about here, they come home, and the father or the mother or the internalised parent says, well, that's okay, but whatever, what happened to the other one percent. Yeah. So they have to do it perfectly to get the, you know, optimum praise from the parent. Yeah. Which as children is all we want from our parents is lots of praise and recognition and validation. So it's understandable that we're going to go down that road and do what it is that we think our parents want us to. It's defending against the internal criticism from the parent for doing things they don't want them to do, like, you know, expressing feelings or whatever it is that the parent finds hard. Yeah. And then they make decisions around that because it's linked to script decisions, like it's okay to be perfect. And it's pretty scary to, you know, express feelings or whatever it is. Yeah. Boarding schools are perfect for that, aren't they? Yes. Yeah. Probably on that whole injunction driver complex we're talking about. Yeah. Definitely. And I think they just all, you know, the script behaviour, the driver behaviour, the injunctions, life script, all that. I think they just all link in so well together and make sense of something that can be a quite a complex matter, really. Yeah. I think it's very, it's very straightforward to explain. I hope we're explaining it well here. And then, of course, we need to look at the what I call the early script decision that child makes about life, other people in the world and how they knock that out, not only therapy, but in the real world. Yeah. In a way which isn't helpful to them. Yeah. Go on. Sorry. So I was going to say, in the early childhood help them, help them get by to defend against the internal criticism, to defend against perhaps the parental wrath. So it was, you know, a pretty good way of defending and getting by in that family of origin. However, in life, that may work and may not work as they move away from their family of origin. Yeah. That's usually when they end up in the therapy room. Yeah. And they're realising those defence systems don't work as well when they're in other relationships or in other families or in other communication processes. And it's usually where their real self is lost in the driver in the driver behaviour. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting for anybody that's listening to this, if they want to know a little bit more about drivers, I've got a quiz on my website. Oh, wow. It's just a little one I threw together because a lot of my clients were asking, well, do I know which one I am? So you can jump over to jackiejones.co.uk and I think it's under free resources. There's a quiz in there that you can do and you just answer some questions and then it'll come up and show you potentially what you were at the time of answering that quiz. Because we do dip in and dip out of all these different drivers. Yeah. Yeah. She's usually linked to stress. I just want to say I smiled. I know you just talked about your imperfect driver there and you just said you just slung this quiz together and put it under the website. I bet it was perfectly done. Whether it's perfectly done, but it took me a long time to do it. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So how do we work with the perfect clients in the therapy room, Bob? Would we model imperfections to them? Well, if you think the cure in inverted commas or the treatment usually is about finding the hidden self underneath the driver behavior. Yeah. Okay. So this isn't about, this is not about in any shape or form helping the person dismantle that driver behavior, for example, or getting them to decrease that driver behavior. The first step is to look at what I would call the injunctions underneath the driver behavior that inhibits the real self coming out. Yeah. Yeah. So the work is about helping the person find their real self under the driver behavior. Now, that's easier said than done. So you're going to be working with the child, you can say it, and by definition, the parent will pop out because the internalised parent tend to one will not like the person, you know, not being perfect anymore or having, you know, accessing their own spontaneity or expressing feelings or whatever it is, because that's not what they, they're scripted to do. So you will be facing the internalised parent. So quite often, this is later in treatment, once you've actually got the relationship with the client and understand the problem, you will do what I call action, actionistic techniques where you will ask the client to role play dialogue with that internalised parent, which wanted them to follow that driver behavior so intensely. Yeah. Because then in the end, the client will need to take ownership back of their real self rather than adapting. Yeah. And that's the small process. It's not going to happen in one session. No, no, no, no, we'll talk about, because first of all, you've got to get to know the client, you've got to get to know the problem, you've got to understand the driver behavior, go look at the defences, you've got to understand the injunctions and to need all that before you can give permissions for the client to be different. Now, once you start giving permission for the client to be different, the tender on that is when the internalised parent will come out. Yeah. And things will happen like the client will come back and say, you know, since you gave me permissions to express feelings, or I gave myself permission to express feelings, I felt worse. Yeah. And then if you explore a bit more, tell me what you mean by feel worse. Well, you know, I've got a headache. Oh, where have you got a headache? Well, I've gone the whole of the left side since I started giving myself permission to be. Okay. And as we reflect on that, we hearing any cognition at the same time, yes, I started to tell myself off for doing this, and it doesn't work and are no good. And actually, and then we start to discover, and we will, we might discover, discover that the parent back in history used to maybe hit the child on the left hand side when they weren't being perfect. So in other words, the parent the parent pops out, and even the dramatic considerations pops out. So you will have to take on the parent. Yeah. The bit here is the child isn't alone. They have the therapist to to now stand up for them, protect them and help them take ownership of what they weren't able to take ownership of before. Yeah, which links in really nicely, you know, to something I think we've spoke about in the past as the therapist to offer protection, permission, and potency. That's the time where we need to be more potent than the internal parents. Oh, absolutely, because the internal parent is not going to like any change, any change, any change, that's absolutely right. Also, you know, if they've told them not to do something like be themselves, be what I want you to be, they're not going to suddenly like the child starting to take ownership of a different way of being. I think this is why I love the driver behaviors and the junctions and everything, because it quite seamlessly gets down to the nitty gritty stuff of life and where it comes from and how it is. And our drivers, you know, we like I said, we go when we're stressed or overwhelmed or tired or ill or anything, but it's a defence mechanism. It's for our protection. We're going to guard it with as if our very life depends on it. Absolutely, because maybe it did all those years ago. Yeah. I mean, you know, when you said, you know, a client might come back and say that they feel worse. These might sound awful to some of the listeners, but for me, when a client does that, I think it's quite positive because they've gone down a level. When we when we're starting to change things or when things are starting to change, I always warn my clients that you might feel more anxious. You might feel, you know, more tired or overwhelmed, but that's a good thing because it proves that you're starting to make some changes. I couldn't agree more. And of course, that's when often you will go to a never layer and perhaps role models role modeling again, sorry. So role playing again, when you actually, you know, dialogue with the psychological parent. Yeah, which is really powerful. You know, I've witnessed that in a goldfish ball type thing when we were doing training. And it's really powerful. It is. And on another area, because I'd like to get it in this podcast, you kindly sent me, which I'm sorry, I briefly looked at it on my phone, but for a couple of pages from TA today, where she's just talked about in terms of all you showed up to the people watching TA today and personal adaptations, quite a lot of these drivers are particularly pertinent to certain personality styles. Yeah, or adaptations. So we talked about the be perfect driver being particularly prevalent with obsessive compulsive personalities, for example. Yeah, that would make sense, wouldn't it? Because the person has got obsessive compulsive personality has a high internalized judging parent. Yeah. And therefore, unusually, the parent is obsessive themselves, by the way. And then they want their child to be perfect. So it's really important. And you'll see it, you'll see it in the obsessive compulsive personality, that by definition, will inhibit or exhibit, be perfect behavior. You need to get underneath the obsessive behavior patterns, which are, which is the defense system, and the person's way of being to survive to deal with the therapy, which is usually to find the person underneath all that. Yeah. And there will be a lot of traps and games and all sorts of things getting down to that underneath parts. Yeah, because even though the person comes in with the problem, and often, let's take this through. They obsess a lot. They check a lot, or they do behaviors, which means they lack spontaneity. It's energy draining and under stress, it means that they might inhibit intimacy. So they come to therapy, and they know they want to be different. But actually, as they start to perhaps take the courage to change these behaviors, or to start experimenting with being themselves rather than obsessively checking or whatever it is, they will feel often, often worse, as you said. And it's really important that the therapist stays with them at that time, and does give the protection. So I think it is important to look at how certain character styles will have certain drivers under stress, and then you'll know what you're working with in a way. Yeah. And there are kind of, I've got my book open on the page, as you were speaking, and there are certain things that somebody, when they're in the be perfect driver, body language and things that they might do in front of you. Yeah, so you can spot when they have moved into this obsessive place by the behavioral exhibition of them. So do you want to read some of them out that you've got there? One of the things that stood out for me, because I do tend to do this an awful lot, is I'll count things on my fingers when I'm talking, should you know what I mean? So with the kids, if I'm having to go at them, or if I'm saying there's something, it's like, well, you need to do this and this and this, and I literally count it out on the hand. And when I read that in the book, I was like, oh my God, I do that. So it's interesting, some of the actual behaviors that we have that are connected to this, that I didn't even realize was a thing until I started training in transactional analysis. Yeah, in the training we talk about those behaviors, which indicate a shift in ego states, for example. But that checking off that you talked about is very common to be perfect. And again, it's pleasing the parent. Yeah, yeah. And I think that is very parental, anyway, when I do it, you know, the ticking things off or the counting or whatever, whether that's because it was probably done to me at some point in the past by a parent figure, or not, I don't know. But if you think about somebody that is trying their best to be perfect, they're usually upright, standing and sitting, you know, they sit with their legs in a certain position, properly on the chair. And literally everything about them will try to project perfection outwardly. Yeah, absolutely. And it's in real life, it's very draining. Yeah. And as I said, when you're a child, maybe you have to follow these driver behaviors for survival reasons. They often don't help at all when they're in the real world away from the childhood or the parents and they inhibit intimacy, for example. Yeah. And it's, you know, they inhibit the spontaneity. Yeah. They inhibit a person expressing feelings in many ways because they're always obsessing if they're doing it the right way. Yeah. For example. So these are the therapy things that people will come with when they're feeling that they have to be perfect all the time. And the other thing, of course, high anxiety often comes with the perfect driver because you can't be perfect. You're always setting yourself up to fail if you attempt to be perfect. Now, I know it's the way that the kids survive to get on to please the parents, but in the real world, it's impossible. It is. So with it comes high anxiety because they're always attempting to be perfect and never can be. Which is a bit of a bugger, Bob. Yeah, it brings high anxiety. It does. It does. Yeah. And you can see that in the clients. You know, for me, the be perfect client that I would see in the therapy room as well as the body language and how they're sitting would be constantly checking in whether everything's okay, whether they got it right. Is there anything I need to do? You know, some clients will even ask for homework in between sessions so that they can prove that they're paying attention and getting it right and doing everything they should do. It's all those extra little things that they put on themselves that cause that stress and anxiety. That's absolutely. And you need to give these clients permissions to be themselves. Yeah. And at the same time, the problem is by doing that, you may actually cause more anxiety. Yeah. So you have to eventually take on the parent and you have any, you don't stop giving permission, but you may explore what happens when you give the permission. Yeah. Oh, the client said, Oh, you're just saying that really, or you're just trying to trick me or you don't really believe that. Or even when I do try to follow those permissions, I don't feel well afterwards. So you know, you know, all I hear is a critical parent. So it's all very difficult. So it's all right for you to say, give myself permissions, but it's a very uncomfortable process. So these are the sort of conversations which will happen when you're on the road to help the client feel more spontaneous or be themselves or be feeling okay relationships. These are the sort of processes that will occur. It's amazing. It's just another part of transactional analysis that I absolutely love. Well, I think it's a useful piece of theory because you'll see it all the time that people follow the driver behavior so they can survive as a child and don't cause difficulty from their parents and also to defend against, you know, getting in touch with the negative processes that comes if the therapist is sorry, if the parent is a vote. The problem as I said comes before, if they start enacting that out in the real life, which they will do. Yeah. Inevitably, they will do it. Yeah. Yeah. Now, of course, if you did go on TA training, you're taught to look for the signs that go with a be perfect driver so that you can spot when they're in that place and all that ego state. Yeah. Of course, that's what you started to read out in the book. And I think one of the biggest reasons what you've just said is the client looks or looks if they're perfect. Yeah. So there's no flexibility in their face muscles. They're very rigid in the way they sit. They are just attempting to do everything right. And another way of knowing this, but this is to inquiry about cognition, is their very black and white thinking. Yes. They have to be perfect so it's right or it's wrong. Yeah. The middle ground is a very uncomfortable place to be. Yeah, very, very uncomfortable. Yeah. They have to be right or they have to be wrong. Yeah. And the other thing about the counter transfers in this, well, the process is this, of course, is that they will project on to you all the time that they have to be perfect. Otherwise, they're going to suffer punishment. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things obviously, you know, quite far down the line of working with the client. It's not something that I would do in the early days, but is to model imperfections to them. Give me an example of that. If you can. I'm very dubious about doing this because it's not something that I would recommend for all people to do. But to just get it wrong in the session and notice yourself getting it wrong in the session, whether it's a word that I trip up on or whether I contradict myself in something, but actually modeling the fact that it's okay to get it wrong in the therapy room. Oh, I see. I think it needs to be followed up, Jackie. That's why I wonder what you did clinically. So I think this is what you say. So I'm dyslexic. So I often say things the wrong way around, like, you know, park parks instead of car parks or whatever. So here's an example. So, you know, maybe, maybe I will choose to do this clinically in the way that you're talking about. So I mix my words up, for example. And then, you know, the crowd smiles at that. And I say something. How is that because I know it's really important for you that maybe I'm perfect for you. Yeah. So I think this needs to be linked in with phenomenological inquiry. Yeah. If you find out what's happening in the crime's world. Yeah. And they experience that they're just not being the perfect person for them. Yeah. Or my sense of humour often plays out, you know, putting odd socks on. Yes, that sort of stuff. Things like that, you know, I'm not talking being critical of the client in any way, but letting them see me not being perfect 100% of the time. Yeah. I remember, this is a clinical example, which I did. So I was working with the obsessive somebody and it quite a big disorder, really. We'll say traits, high, maybe heading towards disorder where I have, you know, I knew that I had to be perfect for them and all the things we're talking about here. And he had to be perfect for himself. So he had to escape the wrath of the parent and all those sorts of things. So after, after a while, and you're right, timing is key. So you need to have a relationship and he did not this work to be able to actually go to a place where I'm going to say now. So in my room back then I had big long cities. So you've been in my training room and I used to work at the end of my career in the big training room at the Institute and the room was full of cities. So anyway, so he would sit on one city, I'd sit on another city. And this is conscious thought, what I'm going to say to you now. And I decided one day, well, I'm going to do exactly what you just said. I'm going to, and I quite like this because my, I haven't got much of a driving being perfect by the way. I've got other drivers, but I quite liked, quite like what I did. So I decided I'm going to lie down on the city, do therapy with me lying down. I love freaking out. And anyway, so yeah, exactly. So he started, we lying down for, you should be sitting up, you're always sitting up, you know, therapy should sit up, but at least you're always sitting up. And then I think I said, and this is what I mean by about inquiring, you say, Oh, so it's really important that I get it right for you. And is that how it was with your dad with you? Yeah. So you make, you need to do it, make connection. I think you have to make a connection as well. Definitely. I love that Bob, I can see you doing that. Yeah. As he started to realize all this, I said, is it okay if I continue the next five or 10 sessions doing therapy this way? Which we did. And at the end, he was lying down on the city as well. So while did therapy, were we both lying down? That's exactly what I mean when I say challenging certain behaviors, but you've got to have the relationship with the clients in the first place. Yeah. You wouldn't do that in the first session. Yeah. I'd work with them for about a year anyway, by then. But I love that because therapy doesn't need to be hard work a lot of the time. We can make wonderful connections and have a sense of humour and see the brighter side of life in the therapy room as well. No, that's how it should be. Yeah. So that's an example of working with them being perfect. And I think it's important to spot these drivers because then we know that they're where they are at, what's happening. And to follow it up by what I call inquiry about what's happening internally and then help them make the connections to, was this how it was with your parent? Yeah. And what decision did you make from that to survive in the world? And is it helping you now? Yeah. And usually it isn't. No, nine times over, ten times over. I don't expect that for that. I don't know how much I've got to tell this podcast as it's actually, is how you help them integrate new behaviors in their life because you're quite right. It's a gradient that'll start to feel uncomfortable when they start doing it because they'll start to activate this parent. Now as you do the work with the actual parent, that will decrease and hopefully the client or the child will start to take center stage and integrate these new behaviors in their relationships or life so that they can really take ownership of their true self. Which, you know, I think that's really good because we're going to be talking about driver behaviors for the next, you know, three or four sessions, podcasts or whatever. So we can touch more on that in the next one. I really enjoyed this one. So what we're going to be doing on the next one is try hard. Yeah, and I hope for the listeners' sake to know that this podcast won't have been perfect, but hey ho, it's enough, I hope. 100% I'm with you. I'm sure we're on a podcast, another perfect one. Until the next time, speak soon. Next time. Bye bye. Bye. 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