 They started dragging him across the supermarket floor. And that's when my heart really started racing. I got very nervous because it was the first time that it had escalated to this point. All right, so here we are. We got interview three of the 2019 vegan camp out. Some old friends of mine, that vegan couple. How are you going? We're great, thanks for having us. I can't believe how fresh you look after being putting yourself through a pretty crazy tour schedule. Compliments will get you everywhere. Yeah, it's amazing. Oh, we don't feel very fresh. Really, how do you feel? Look, you know what, today we feel quite uplifted actually because a lot of people have provided such beautiful feedback about the talk that we gave, about the disruptions that we've been involved in lately. And so we're feeling quite uplifted and thanking us for our work. Yeah, the spirits are uplifted. The physical, mental and emotional bodies are absolutely shot to pieces. Wow. If I can be honest. Yeah, you can be completely honest with me because it seems like you guys have made a transition from being purely YouTubers, but now getting involved quite prominently in grassroots animal rights activists. And how did that happen? Yeah, look, we were going really strong with the response videos and the mukbangs for many, many years. And as you know, we were living in Thailand for a lot of that time. And we didn't have the chance to get involved in street activism. So we would see a lot of people like yourself and others doing it on YouTube. And it was fantastic to see, but we didn't have the opportunity to get involved. And just as we decided to leave Thailand to go back to Australia, a cube started up in Chiang Mai and now they actually have vigils as well. Wow, Bangkok. In Bangkok, yeah. And but when we were there, that wasn't kind of happening. And so when we moved back to Australia, we finally got the chance to get involved ourselves. And so it was something we always wanted to do, but just never had the opportunity because we were living in Thailand at the time. So yeah, now it's been great to just merge the street activism with the social media and obviously the YouTube and everything. And that's that's been amazing. Do you find it's quite a different in terms of character building to be right there out there in the thick of things? Yeah, it's different. You know, I guess online you're dealing with it all online. So it's all virtual that in the real world on the street, you know, the face to face interactions, it is definitely a different experience. The trolls are real. Real life trolls. Yeah. Oh, my God. Now, I want to talk to you guys about the direct action you've been involved in because this is quite a, I don't know. It's quite an intense form of activism and it can be confrontational. And you guys are that big in couple. You're such a peaceful loving. You know, when I'm when you meet, if you if anyone's ever met that vegan couple, they've got this energy that just cuddles you with that softly spoken bulk of articulately spoken voices. And that, you know, but you're out there doing this direct action. And a lot of vegan activists shy away from. And how did this happen? What? Why did you choose this form of activism? Sure. It's it's interesting. I just want to address something actually. It's funny that you say that because a lot of our audience refer to us as their mum and dad, their online vegan mum and dad. Even if they're our age or older. So, yeah, you're right. We had this kind of reputation as being the mum and dad. And then when they see us doing this direct action and one of the most recent actions we did was in Germany and that got very intense to the point where Luca was on the ground being let outside by the neck. Everyone was kind of shocked, like, oh, mum and dad, what are you doing? And what's happened? But I think that's a great opportunity to show that this is for everybody. And it doesn't matter how we start and what kind of online persona we have or whatever, direct action is needed. It's absolutely essential for this movement. So even, you know, vegan online mum and dad can do it. Yeah. Wow. Can you explain why it's needed? Yeah. Right. So disruption and direct action has been used by social justice movements throughout history. So we're talking about women's suffrage, civil rights, gay rights. And basically these rights were not enacted into legislation simply by people not participating in a form of discrimination. It actually took disruptive action to ultimately get rights enacted into legislation for the various groups that I mentioned. So, you know, we watched a video called The Science of Social Change, that there is an actual science to it. You know, when we're trying to create one on one, so when we're trying to create individual change, obviously we're having that one on one conversation, trying to plant seeds to influence the person and to lead them to the vegan conclusion. But when we're trying to create social change, we have to first get society to acknowledge that the form of discrimination is an issue. And for example, with animal rights, a lot of society doesn't think it's an issue because they've been indoctrinated into carnism, the invisible belief system, which tells people that it's normal, natural and necessary to eat animals. So they don't even question it. I see. So we have to first force them to acknowledge that animal rights actually is an issue and that animals actually are victims. Because the animal products industry has done such a good job at, you know, a magic trick, if you like, as Gary Rowsky says, at turning these sentient living, breathing beings into inanimate objects and just simple products and commodities. So once we, I mean, like we spoke about today on stage, our talk was ended, you know, talking about direct action and how we got into it. And the thing was we always looked at these direct actions. We watched a steakhouse disruption many years ago and we were like, we're never doing that. Surely that's bad for veganism. It's making us look crazy and aggressive and bad. And this cannot be a good thing for the movement. Now, we never said anything out loud because we never want to criticize any form of activism. So we're just grateful that vegans are actually taking action, you know, like do whatever you think is the right way to do it. But between us, we were like, surely this is not good. Surely this isn't effective. Surely it's even counterproductive. Yeah. And now it's actually we were in Melbourne together doing some action. This was November 2017 and the friend that we were staying with Fiona, we were staying up one night and I remember talking to Fiona about direct action and I said to her fee, you know, I don't think this is good. And she was already on board and she was trying to explain it. And I still didn't get it. And now she laughs at us, mind you. But when we watch that video, the science of social change, that's when we're like, ah, we get it. And it's the way it's explained as everything that Lucas said. And it's just a totally different way of trying to reach people. And it's because we're not trying to get them to go vegan. So that's the thing. We thought, oh, who's going to go vegan by people going into a steakhouse shouting out, it's not food, it's violence. It's not designed to turn people vegan. It's designed to create social debate, to force the issue into the mainstream. And it's a debate that we must force the issue of, Joey, because as DxE co-founder Wayne Shung says, it's a we must force the debate because we know we can win the debate, of course, because there is no moral justification for needlessly killing a sentient being who doesn't want to die. But we first have to force that debate. And, you know, you've done a great job of it, being on Good Morning Britain a number of times with Piers Morgan and bringing that into the public consciousness. Yeah, to start that debate. Yeah, interesting, isn't it? And, you know, a lot of the radio interviews that I get asked to do are off the back of some direct action that people are thinking, you know, that's crazy vegans. We've got to get Joey Carpstrong to talk about this. OK, so it worked to get me on to talk about this, you know, like, and even like in France, I was smashing butcher windows and I'm in England getting talking on the radio about it. So, yeah, maybe you might think I was smashing a window. What's that going to do? But it says in speciesism at the top with spray paint. And I'm up there advocating on the radio so that the advocates come in and sort of sweep it up. So, yeah, I totally see how that dynamic can work for sure. And so I kind of got a bit worried when I seen you on the floor. Now, what was going through your mind? Ash, just explain from both of your perspectives what was going on there in Germany. Do you want? Well, maybe you start talking about how you felt in the moment and I'll elaborate a little bit. All right, so that action was in Berlin. And we had, just to put this into perspective, we always have a meeting point for activists to get to. And then we give the briefing of what's going on. So nobody knows what the action is, except for the organisers. So we had a meeting place in a park and we get there and we're like, holy, I don't know if we can swear on this channel. Go for it. Holy shit, we have 110 people here tonight. 110 people willing to take direct action for animals. That's a lot. A lot. This is the biggest disruption that we have ever organised on tour. So we were super excited. And then when we asked, you know, how many people are disrupting for the first time, about half of them put their hand up and we're thinking, wow, we have so many first time disruptors here. This is great. Now, the great thing is that, sure, all these people want to get involved in direct action. The not so great thing is that it makes it more difficult to carry that action out. The disruptions are one of the most hardest forms of actions to organise and to carry through. There are so many elements to consider. Honestly, it is just a pool. You really got to consider 101 things. Many things could go wrong, it seems like. Everything can go wrong. And so we won't get into it now because it's like a whole other thing. But there are so many things that you need to check and double check and know what you're doing. So to get 110 people doing that and half of them the first time, we were like, all right, let's see how this happens. As it turns out, we were warned that the security in Germany come down really heavy handed. And so they said, they're going to be on tour straight away and they're going to try and shut it down. And we're like, yeah, this happens to us every week. There's no problem, we'll deal with it like everywhere else. Well, it was actually quite, they were right. That was more intense than anywhere else. And they're huge in Germany. They're such big guys. Like I'm always looking up at people, but they were like, huge guys. And so the physical kind of domination, if you like, was quite intense. So basically we did our one minute of silence. People had signs, people had flowers, we had some candles. We were all dressed in funeral attires, all in black. And then it was time for Luca to start chanting. Soon as he pulled out the megaphone, the security were already there, but they came for the megaphone straight away, which is what they always do. They usually go after Luca with the megaphone and me with the camera. But it was a lot more hands on than it's ever been anywhere else. And they wouldn't let go, Luca wouldn't let go. And then the next thing I see is they've got him by each arm and they're walking him out. And then Luca knows we're supposed to make it very difficult. We're not supposed to help them. Yeah. You know, escort us from the building. So go limp and don't let them drag you. Exactly. So he went limp, he dropped to the ground. And as soon as he did that, I'm like, okay, we're going there because this has never happened before to us. It's never escalated to that point. And usually when you go limp and drop to the ground, they just drop you, but they started dragging him across the supermarket floor. And that's when my heart really started racing. I got very nervous because it was the first time that it had escalated to this point. And as I said, we had 110 people with us, half of them first time disruptors. First time, what a first time. Oh my God. What are we doing? I'm like, oh my gosh. Is this normal? It's not normal. Well, it is normal, but it hasn't happened to us before. So here's on the ground. And my instinct, I'll mind you, at that exact moment, the coverage of our live streaming, it just dropped out. The network dropped out. So it was because the supermarket was sort of like down and in and it was supposed to be too much concrete. And so I had no connection. So I'm no longer live. And I'm like, oh my God, we have to film this. Give me a camera, I'm kind of screaming. And there's, you know, there's a bit of chaos. But my first instinct was actually, should I just like drop on top of him? So that- Double weight. Pull up to his ankles, everyone. I mean, it's not that I weigh much, but it was more like, would they do anything if I'm laying on top of him as a woman? Maybe they'd just like pick me up and throw me you out a side. I don't know. But I sort of thought, well, I just like flop on him. Anyway, I didn't do that. But it was quite, yeah, in that moment, because it was the first time, I did have a bit of fear and a bit of panic. Like, oh, where is this gonna go? And then when Luca got up, the look on his face was like, whew, okay. And then he started chanting again. And I'm like, oh, that's my baby. But at the same time, they were on him straight away. And then they grabbed him by the back of the neck and then one guy on each arm and they were dragging him out and forcing his head like his neck down. And it was very violent. And I still didn't have any camera recording. And so I grabbed someone else's and someone else was live streaming. And then we get outside and they're still being rough and then they tried to, well, the security guards detained us. And then they tried to force us into this room. And that's where we're like, we are not getting in there. Because we knew what they were doing was assault and they were not allowed to manhandle them that way. No. And they couldn't put us in that room and they wanted Luca to go in there by himself without me. And I'm like, it's not going anywhere. All right, I'm going with him and I'm filming everything. And finally they called the police and then we were talking with them. And now usually, you know, kind of smooth talking didn't really work with them too well. We're usually trying to, we're usually able to talk our way out of things. And they weren't having it. They weren't. You know, I asked him, this was another cop later on. I said, what's your name, mate? Extend my hand, shake his hand, you know, get a bit friendly. And he pointed to his vest and said, my number is, and it was 4265, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, wow, you don't even have a name. We're just referring to you as a number. So it was super cold. The first cop said, you know, we're going to charge you. We're going to take you to court. We're going to blah, blah, blah. And we're thinking, oh, mate, we've got a speech tomorrow. We've got to give. We've got an animal rights. We've got a speech. We're busy. We'd love to, but we've got animals to save. That's it. We're halfway through too. We've got to keep going. So I think, oh, God, this is going to be a real pain. We didn't have ID with us. We got handed on to another police officer. Blah, blah, blah. Long story short. It's already a long story. Ah, sorry, we ended up being put in a police car. And they drove us back to our Airbnb. They wanted to see documentation. They came up to the apartment and they stayed outside. Obviously, we didn't want them to come in. I mean, that was just getting ridiculous. And we thought that we were going to be taken to the police station after that because that's what they told us. So I'm like, how long do you expect to keep us? Like how many hours will I bring clothes? And he's like, you don't need to bring a toothbrush. I just want your passport. I'm like, oh, all right. That was embarrassing. So. So that is what is your ID? Yeah. So I don't have to pay. And then they let us go. So I think it was just a scare tactic. And that was the whole thing, wasn't it? But basically it was intense for the first time. And next time, we're much better prepared. It's like anything you do the first time, you know? It's like, whoa. That sounds like distressing, but Luca, like you don't get manhandled often. So like, how did you feel? You don't really, you haven't been really the ruckus type like I have. Don't have many scars on your eyebrows. Like what did it feel like getting, you know, dragged around like that? And you didn't know what they were. They could have taken you out and beaten you up. You didn't really know that. So, but you kept chanting. What was going through your head? Right, so Joey, we've been very much inspired by other social justice movements, in particular the civil rights movement. And within the civil rights movement, something called the sit-in movement, which many of you listeners would no doubt be familiar with, whereby it was illegal at one point in time for black people to sit at white-only lunch counters in places like Woolworths, for example. And, you know, they had a, during the sit-in movement, what the activists would do. They were actually trained not to react, no matter what would happen to them if they actually tried to sit at the white-only lunch counter. And so if you just go on to YouTube and you type in sit-in movement, you can see some videos, and you'll see the activists sitting at the white-only lunch counter. You'll have white people coming up and hurling racial abuse at them. Then they will throw food at them. Then they will actually physically grab them and drag them to the floor. And then they will proceed to punch them and kick them. And, you know, it's really gut-wrenching. And what happens is, when the civil activists, civil rights activists didn't react to all of that verbal and physical abuse, it's very clear to the bystander, to the onlooker, to the impartial observer who the victim is and who the oppressor is. It's crystal clear. And so- So powerful. So we try to adapt what the civil rights activists did during the civil rights movement, in particular sit-in movement, to the animal rights movement. And so when a non-vegan, or even a vegan who perhaps is skeptical about direct action, is watching the footage, it's just so powerful and impactful, you know. Wow, these people are standing up peacefully, non-violently against injustice and yet look at the violence they're being subjected to. And so it has a very powerful effect on the observer. And the other thing with the sit-in movement, not only did they not respond to the violence, but they picked themselves up and they got back on the seat and they kept going with their disruption. And that's what Luca did in that moment when he's being manhandled by the back of the neck and physically, like they were grabbing him by the ribs and arms, it was so full on. What did he do? He kept chanting. So as we're going up the escalator, leaving the supermarket, the whole mall, and they've got him by the back of the neck, he's still screaming, it's not food, it's violence. And so to keep that chant going whilst you're being manhandled in the most physical, violent, disgusting way, everyone there at the disruption went, geez, we're gonna keep chanting. It was super inspiring. But did you have a calculated thought process and go, I've got to keep chanting because I've got to keep, or was that just a spontaneous thing? Or do you think about that before you did it? Yeah, absolutely. I was thinking of the 110 activists who were there watching and they're thinking, wow, this has escalated quickly. What's gonna happen here? And I thought the best thing to do in this situation is to continue to be a voice for the victims, the animals. And I know that these other 110 activists here are gonna be inspired by that little act of bravery or courage on my part. And sure enough, they joined in and there was that huge chorus of 110 voices chanting, it's not food, it's violence. I just think it was very powerful, impactful, effective. So I just think sometimes all social justice movements have called for a little bit of personal sacrifice on behalf of activists. And some of us have to do that and be the example for others. And in that moment, I guess I was able to display a little bit to hopefully inspire others to continue to take more nonviolent direct action. And I'll add to that, what's been really great for us, Joey, is for the last two years, we've gone to the Animal Liberation Conference in Berkeley, California. Now that's run by Direct Action everywhere. And it is absolutely fantastic because it's a week-long immersion into Direct Action and all of the things it entails. And so we have learned for the last two years these little things that we've picked up hearing other people speak, going to other disruptions, learning from professionals, if you like, in the field of direct action. And so that's really equipped us and empowered us with the tools and the confidence and everything that we've needed to be able to deal with those situations and guide people along there with us. Even if it's the first time that we're experiencing it, we can still kind of hold it together and keep going because that training has really set us up. And so we encourage everyone to get along to the ALC. It happens every year. And it's just been fantastic. Amazing. It's, yeah. Well, you both have showed a lot of confidence there and it is really inspiring. And I was worried. And then when you kept chanting, I was like, go Luca! Oh my God! It's really hard for me because I'm coming from the past that I come from, like to see someone attack a friend of mine, I have something that's, it's kind of programmed into me to defend and to, you know, to attacking those moments. And I don't really think, like I don't go, wait a second, wait, you know, I'm all like, boom, like straight in there. So like I'm at home like, oh my God, if I was there, go, oh! But absolutely inspiring. And it makes so much sense. If you see someone on just not reacting and getting beaten by an authority, then who's looking like the oppressor and it makes so much sense to me. So you guys, obviously, I wanna talk about something a little bit more emotional. And I wanna talk about the struggles that you've gone through in your whole sort of, I guess you could say just term of advocacy and the ups and the downs. And being public figures, you obviously have a different expectation and, you know, you're held accountable by a larger audience. And if you say something that, you know, you're getting a bunch of people criticising you and you have to keep going and the suffering of the animals now. And you have two of you as well, you know, a couple here. So anything you go through together, you know, so I'm just wondering how you guys, what struggles you've had and how you've overcome them together and stayed together as a couple. He looks at me. You answer a woman. Oh yeah, it's a hard one. I mean, you know that people think, oh yeah, you just make videos, you just get on your Instagram and you put on a happy face and you just say a few words. It's done hard. It's hard. There's so much more that goes on behind the scenes that people don't see and I don't think can appreciate unless they're actually in that situation. Exactly. You have to stay focused on the bigger mission, which is animal rights and liberation. And you have to learn how to deal with all the shit that's gonna be hurled at you. You are severely censored. You're censored by the platforms that we use. You're censored by the industry. You're censored by the people that actually follow you. You're censored by other vegans that become too sensitive because you know, they don't like the fact that you use the word rape to describe what happens to animals. You're censored by every single thing in the world practically and yet you're still supposed to communicate this fantastic, strong message that's gonna save animals and inspire people and keep the show going and keep a smile on your face while it's all kind of feeling like, how are we gonna do this? It's really, really hard. It's really hard. I forgot what your question was, but how do we... What struggles have you had and how have you overcome them? Yeah, so the struggles are keeping the show going to still inspire people when we're not always feeling inspired ourselves. I think a lot of that is, it weighs quite heavy on us sometimes. Like, okay, we've got to put on, something to get everyone else involved, but what drives us? What motivates us? Who do we turn to for that extra boost? And when you're bombarded with people's questions and concerns and troubles and it's like, okay, we're giving out advice and we're helping and we're working through those things. What about our questions and our concerns and our troubles and where do we go with those? We also sometimes feel like we're in a hole. How do we get ourselves out of the hole to make sure other people don't end up in holes? So it's all those things where you're just trying to do your best in the public eye whilst there may still be struggles for us dealing with those same things as being activists and being on social media all the time. And then we're working together 24 seven. We've been together, how many years now? I can't remember. 21. 21 years. Amazing. We've been married. 15. Amazing. We've been working together. 11 years. Do you hear his voice going, oh. It's a long time and so for us, there's no break. So for example, we don't get to wake up in the morning, good morning babe, have breakfast and then, okay, spy, see you, have a nice day at work and come back eight hours later. We're together all the time. And so we become colleagues more than husband and wife. You feel like best friends and then you feel like brother and sister and you feel like colleagues and you're like, no, I don't even like you anymore, go away. You know, and so. And how do we overcome it? Well, like we said in our talk today here, Joey, the camp out, we remember that it's all for them and by them I mean the animals, the actual victims. You know, Natasha has painted the picture of the real life struggles that we go through as human beings. And yet we always remember who the real victims are because nothing that we could ever endure would even come close to the hell that those animals are suffering every second of every minute of every hour of every day until we collectively rise up and say, stop it, enough is enough, okay. So I guess they're foremost in our minds all the time. We watch, you know, we've seen Dominion now 13 times because we've been screening it on tour. And every time we have to give a speech or a talk or something or a speak out, I'm constantly remembering the images that I've seen in that film, Dominion of those animals suffering. And then the advocacy comes from a different place and that gives you the drive. As you know, I don't need to explain it to you to keep going in the face of all adversity and any hardship that we might endure. It's nothing. It's all about perspective. And we've gone through a lot of things in our relationship over, what did you say, 21 years, right, the repeat, I can never remember, it's so long, well it is a lifetime, you know. We've gone through ups and downs for various things. And so we always say, well, you know what, we made it through that, we made it through that, we made it through that, we just keep going. One more video, one more speech, one more workshop, we just keep going. And the screensaver on our laptop is a picture of us with a cow, a beautiful rescue cow that we met last year, Bima from a sanctuary in Michigan. And he was absolutely beautiful. Sasha Farm Sanctuary. Yeah, shout out to them, gosh, they do amazing work. It's a farm sanctuary that Gary Yorovsky goes and visits and spends a lot of time there, it's a beautiful place. And we had a beautiful picture taken with Bima and he's looking up into the sun and we're giving him some beautiful love. And that's always there as a reminder that, hey, guys, get your shit together. It's just another work day, you work through it, you get on with it. You can go and chill out after this if you need to, but we need to finish the job that we started. So that's how we do it. But yeah, there's ups and downs. It's not easy. A terrible quote. Well, I like, it's a good quote, but it goes, the source is not the best. It's like from Rocky. And it's not the original Rocky movie. It's one of the subsequent ones. It's not how hard you can hit. It's how hard you can get hit and get up and keep moving forward. Exactly. I think it was some advice he gave to his son. But it's so true. It's so true. Like my dad used to say, you don't need to necessarily fight but you should never give up. And it's that idea of persistence, you know, and, you know, overcoming all adversity and just keep going and going and going. And we're not going away unless you shoot us there and then our videos are still up. Yeah. You can take your time, but you can't take our YouTube channel. Open my coffin. I'm wearing a GoVegan now. But, you know, it's, I really like to get into the mindset of other activists. And especially when you're in the public eye, like you guys have been, I mean, you've got 20 million views on your YouTube channel. 23. 23. So, you know, that's, and your message has always been consistent, you know, and it's, the world out there is just crazy. Hey, people can say what they want on the internet. So how people like, who do what they do. Ah, Alex Hershaft has popped into the chat. Hey, Alex. Hi, Alex. Living Legends walked into the room. Yes. Amazing to see you, Alex. We need to get you on our podcast, sure, next. He has no idea who we are. He's got a lot of amazing things to say. Thank you for your work. Thank you. So I was just trying to get into the mindset of others who are in the same position to see how they reconcile that in their minds and still find the courage to keep going and it's the persistence to keep going consistently. And it is about focusing on the victims. Cause when you see what the animals are going through, I'm like, well, am I really doing it that hard? And like, you know, I also think that we set these self limitations. We are, I think I'm doing too much or maybe I'm doing too much. But I really think that we're capable of much more than we give ourselves credit for and we can push ourselves past limits. And once we get to that, past that limit, we then have a different comfort zone. And I think we can keep pushing ourselves as long as we just hold on and just keep pushing ourselves past and past and past. And all of a sudden we've calloused our mind and we're ready for more. And the same things that used to really get us down might have cried about and used to break us. It's nothing anymore. So then you, all of a sudden you're strong enough to, for any criticism I was on my back, whenever something still gets me, not like they used to, you know, so. It's so interesting that you say that because going back to the disruption that we did in Berlin, that was so intense. And like once we, we got through it and then we were kind of just sat on the couch that night and we're like, whoa, what just happened? And it just kind of sunk in. And then we made, we made, you know, the promos and the little videos that we put up on Instagram. And when you watch that footage back, cause people were messaging saying, are you guys all right? Like that was really, and then we watched it and we're like, oh, shit, that was really full on. And once it sunk in and we realized what we just went through and the police and everything and blah, blah, blah, blah. And we were okay. We felt so much stronger. It's like, mate, what else are you gonna throw at us? It's like, if we could get through that and then all the support that came through and how many people, this is the thing that really inspired us. How many people said, I'm gonna start doing direct action. I feel strong enough to do this now. If look at, how dare they do that to look at that gentle, beautiful man that does mukbangs is all of a sudden being dragged out by his neck and he's still chanting for animal liberation. I'm gonna join my DXC group and do some disruption. And so when they, those messages just started coming through and we saw the result, the fallout, the beautiful result of what had happened, our skin grew an extra layer of thickness. And then we said, all right, we got through that. We can do anything. We got this and everything that came up in the following days, like we did the speech at the end of the March, the official animal rights march, and there was something else we did. I can't remember. Then there was a disruption following that and we did a speak out outside city hall where the activists chained themselves. There was just, yeah, like several things that came up afterwards. And we were just so ready for it all. And it just felt like nothing because once you'd gone through at that point, what was the quote unquote worst thing or the toughest thing ended up making you even stronger and you could just persevere. And then, because we're on tour at the moment, as you know, and so it's been back to back for it. It's like five and a half months. Don't really have time to like think about how you feel. It just feels like, how are we gonna get through this next really busy period of so many speeches and so many talks and so many workshops and so many events. And it's like, well, we just got something through something that was really hard and we survived and we're stronger for it. And so we're just gonna keep going. Amazing. Yeah, you're right. It makes you tougher and stronger. So we're talking about relativity to a degree as well. So we look at other activists like Gary Rovsky who was jailed for liberating 1500 mink. We look at people like Wayne Shung who's facing 16 felony charges in the United States for animal liberation and other related acts. We look at people like Jenny McQueen who had a house raided by police at 6 a.m. We look at people like Chris Delforce who's had his home raided and also goes into gas chambers to plant hidden cameras to obtain footage of pigs being murdered. Allegedly. Sorry, allegedly, yeah. He was in Parliament the other day too. In Parliament, you know. So we look at all of these other people in the movement who are doing all of these amazing acts of bravery and courage and we draw inspiration from that as well. Amazing to have community and people to look to and go, wow, it does empower you seeing other people do things and I'm constantly inspired by people in the movement and it's really like, I guess what it also does is it raises everyone's like the expectation of what we could be doing. So one person might, what do you guys think about the stand-by effect? The stand-by effect, have you heard of the stand-by effect? So when there's a car accident, everyone's frozen and no one comes to help until that one person does and they all do. So it's kind of like when someone in the movement does something like, whoa, that was, and then everyone else comes and meets them at that point sort of thing and then it's like, boom, it's like. It's interesting, we talk about the radical flank effect. Have you heard that? No, it's somewhat similar to the stand-by effect. Yeah, a little bit different, but similar. So the radical flank effect is when you do something that's perceived as extreme and it makes more moderate forms of activism look more appealing. And so we go and do a disruption and everyone's like, whoa, what are you guys doing that's so extreme? So then they all start joining into a cube of truth because, well, if Luka can be dragged out by the neck as to a chant, I can go to a cube of truth and hold a sign for a couple of hours. Amazing. And then all of a sudden they go, okay, well, this cube's all right. Maybe I can do some outreach. Oh, it's all right. Well, maybe I can go to a vigil next. Oh, that vegan couple's doing the next thing that's way too extreme. Well, I'm gonna do a disruption as well. Yeah, I might do some advocacy or something like that. But that wouldn't, I'm definitely not doing that form of activism, but I'll probably do that. That doesn't seem as extreme now. That makes perfect psychological sense. And then they end up doing that extreme thing anyway. That's the whole point. And that's what we're seeing. That's why today's been so wonderful. We've met so many people. And the feedback is, you know, it's funny. Like it used to be, oh, you made me vegan, which is fantastic. But now it's, you made me an activist. I don't like saying you made me. You inspired me to be an activist. You inspired me to be vegan. So we no longer wanna hear you inspired me to be vegan. We wanna hear you inspired me to be an activist. And that's what we heard more of today than anything else, which is perfect. Which reminds me of Australian animal rights activists and philanthropist, Phillip Wallin. I remember you interviewed him at World Vegan Day, Melbourne a couple of years back. And he said, if I only inspire people with my speeches to go vegan, I'll have seen my life's work as a failure, essentially. My intention is to inspire vegans to become activists, words to those effects. And it's true. And I was thinking back to the radical flank effect at the Animal Liberation Conference in Berkeley, which we attended this year and last, as the President Sush was saying, this year we had the privilege of hearing from Dr. Bernard Lafayette, who was a colleague of Martin Luther King Jr.'s during the civil rights movement, very powerful just to be in his presence. And he was telling us a story about the radical flank effect, whereby Martin Luther King Jr. was imprisoned at one point and Malcolm X went to visit him in jail. And one of the civil rights activists said, oh, we should get Malcolm X to speak when he comes to visit the city, when he comes to visit Martin Luther King Jr. in jail. Anyway, so they got Malcolm X to speak. And at one point, apparently, he said to the media, he looked at the media and he said, you better listen to him, referring to Martin Luther King Jr., or you're gonna have to deal with me. Because of course, Malcolm X provided the radical flank in the civil rights movement, which made Martin Luther King Jr. look more moderate. Wow, they really did work together today, but it seemed like they were, you know? But he was able to leverage off that, you know, the different approaches to ultimately... What would you rather, Malcolm X? Exactly. Or Martin Luther King, you know? Choose one. Whereas, you know, without a Malcolm X, then Martin Luther King Jr. looks like the extremes. The radical, yeah. Yeah. Wow. So it's very interesting. And, you know, we keep saying to people, look, we don't have to reinvent the wheel. We're not creating anything brand new here. We just need to look at what's worked throughout history and apply it to animal rights. Amazing. That's what we're doing. Oh, gosh, he's a great resource. You would love this, by the way, Joey. We're listening to an audio book called This Is An Uprising. By brothers Mark and Paul Engler. It was written in 2016. And we came across this book because the co-founder of the Save Movement, Anita Criance, was telling us about it and she read it and has been inspired by it. I believe she might have heard about it from some of the co-founders of Extinction Rebellion, who we heard from Roger Hallam, he's one of the 15 co-founders of Extinction Rebellion, he's a vegan, phoned into the Animal Liberation Conference anyway. They spent two years Extinction Rebellion looking at previous social justice movements and what strategies and tactics had been successful before they implemented those that they're using with Extinction Rebellion. Anyway, a lot of their work came from the work discussed in the book, This Is An Uprising. Absolutely fascinating read. They're looking back at other social justice movements in history. Recently we've been reading about the Serbian Revolution from 20 years ago when they ousted Slobodan Milosevic, the butcher of the Balkans and just how people can come together at a grassroots level and mobilize mass numbers of people, 200,000 in Serbia actually, and rise up and topple dictators and... It's absolutely fascinating to hear and learn what has been done throughout history around the world in different situations and there's one common thing, the thing that that's the same in all of these is its direct action. It's nonviolent. Some movements have been violent, but movements that have used nonviolent direct action have been more successful because typically people don't want to get involved with violence, so when you keep it nonviolent, it means that more people are going to want to get involved. So we're learning, we're educating ourselves. I'm talking about Luca and I right now and I just feel like our minds are opening and expanding to the point where this is all we talk about. We'll just have the audio book playing as we're around the house or when we're traveling or on flights or whatnot and we're listening to this and we're learning so much and so we can see now it's being applied to the animal rights movement. So we're so excited to be returning to the UK. We're going to be in London for Animal Rebellion starting on the 7th of October. It goes for two weeks. We'll be there for the first six days and we can see how so much of what we're reading about at the moment has been used with Extinction Rebellion and now with Animal Rebellion and it's this beautiful fusion of everything that has happened in human history but this time we're applying it to animals. Amazing. And so this is, I feel like, we both feel like the movement has come to a crossroads. Its activism has grown and then it kind of reached the stage where it almost plateaued a bit and now it's moving in a different direction and that's why we've seen the safe movement has started to do a bit more direct action, disruption. So you saw in Toronto, there was that action at the Maple Leafs Slaughterhouse and we were there earlier this year on tour and we met the Slaughterhouse manager and we spoke with him, with Anita, the co-founder of the Safe Movement and we were speaking with this Slaughterhouse manager and he was saying, well now we have all these plant-based options that we make as well and so we're a partly ethical company. No, he said we're an ethical company and we're like, no, no, no. Just because you make some plant food options that doesn't absolve your murdering of animals. That just means you're buying into a market that you see is growing, which is great but you're opening another Slaughterhouse for chickens so that's not okay. And he, you know, we spoke around in circles and we went round and round and round and we were so pleased to see, couple months later, activists locking down and being chained to a concrete slab, shutting down that slaughterhouse and we saw the manager that we spoke with there in the live stream and he just looked absolutely bamboozled like, what am I gonna do? And we thought, good. You had the chance to talk to us and take action and change direction and you chose not to so you forced activists to take direct action and so we're seeing basically all of these things that have been done throughout human history now they're coming to fruition for the animal rights movement and that is, it's gonna be the game changer. It has to be because if it's not that, you know, no group in history got the rights that they wanted through, for example, doing outreach or through vigils. They are all needed. They are definitely all needed. They're part of it but until people take sustained nonviolent direct action, the rights were not won. Wow. Now that's kind of alarming and concerning but also great at the same time because at least we know what we need to do. Now we just have to get all the people that have been doing the outreach and the cubes and the vigils, all of those people over to also doing direct action because we need those numbers. Wow, I feel very inspired and I never really looked at this form of activism this thoroughly and you guys have obviously done a lot of research into this and it makes sense that we should repeat the things that were successful in the past and but let me just give you this dynamic. In the past they're fighting for humans and it's different when you're fighting for humans and get more people to it. It's more, you know, they're gonna fight harder and this is when you're at stake, that's you defending, it's your survival but when you're fighting for, you know, animals and really is it gonna work the same way? Yeah, it's a very- Do you see these gray hairs? That's because we have this conversation literally every day. This is the problem and we, yeah. So Wayne Shung, co-founder of DXC has a video on his YouTube channel, on direct action of his YouTube channel called Why Direct Action? A Talk by Wayne Shung and he raises this issue right at the end and in it his response is, well, a 2015 Gallup poll came out in the United States which said that 34% of people surveyed believed that animals should have the same rights as humans and they said that that was X% more people than agreed with gay rights in the years leading up to the enactment of gay rights into the legislation and X% more people than agreed with, was it civil rights? I think so. In the years leading up to civil rights being enacted. So if we looked at that, we'd say, wow, okay, people already have a connection with animals through their companion animals and so maybe, yeah, it is possible. The only thing that there is, since I have the thought recently. Sorry to be the downer here. Well, I thought, I think when they took that poll, I think people were referring to their companion animals. They would be thinking, yes, my cat or my dog definitely deserves the same rights as I do. I don't actually think they're thinking about the animals that we eat because when they look at the meat and the cheese and the milk and the eggs, I don't think they're seeing animals. They're just seeing products. So I don't think they're thinking the chicken deserves the same rights as a human. I think they're thinking the dog deserves the same rights as a human. So I'm skeptical of that poll. And I think this is the biggest boundary is that it is a different species that we're dealing with. So for example. We're trying to cross the species barrier here with this social justice issue. And so it is the biggest challenge we face. Where we may be able to leverage here is with the climate crisis and extinction rebellion. So for example, if we can get people to understand that we can't solve the climate emergency without addressing the animal emergency, which is causing the climate emergency. Then we can do it. Exactly. Basically like the thing that gets us is as a vegan, okay, you're not participating in the exploitation and the violence. Awesome, you've stepped back from that. The thing is you can actually continue your life virtually unchanged. Until unaffected. Your civil liberties aren't at risk. Yeah, like until the climate totally collapses and we can't breathe and we don't have water to drink, until that stage right now, you can still get on a bus and sit wherever you want. You can still vote as a woman, as a vegan, obviously. You can still marry whoever you want. You can have a job, you can have equal pay, et cetera. So what happens right now to a chicken in a cage has no effect on your day-to-day actions even as a vegan. So therefore we get very comfortable. We sit back and we say, hey, I'm vegan. Everything's cool, I've done my part. Someone else is doing the activism out there. Joey's busting his Gus and Tasha and Luca being dragged up by their necks. Alex is still going at age 85. I can just sit back and have my vegan burgers because, hey, it's all good. Now, that's unlike any other social justice movement. If you were a woman and you couldn't vote and you can get a job and you couldn't have all these other rights that men have, that affects you, which motivates you to get on the street and to become an activist. So what's the motivation for these vegans to become activists if everything's so percussion because, hey, you can get a vegan KFC now and you can get a burger at Murder King and McDonald's and everywhere else. So what's the motivation? That's the problem. And that's where we have to start thinking about the victims. It's not us. It's not about making life more easy for vegans by having more vegan options. It's about the animal victims. And until we focus on them, we have absolutely no chance or hope of stopping this holocaust, the animal holocaust. We have no chance of stopping what's going on. The issue is, though, intrinsically, I think as human beings, we're more selfish than altruistic. We have the capacity for altruism, but I think our selfish side shines through a little more strongly. So I think it's going to be leveraging off the climate emergency that's going to get us there faster than waiting for a change in morals or ethics or altruism. So this is, I don't know, have you looked into extinction rebellion and animal rebellion at all? Have you? Not really. I mean, I heard a couple of their speeches at the march, but I'm really not familiar with extinction rebellion and their actions. I mean, I know they were taping themselves to trains and bridges and getting arrested, so that type of disobedience. Yeah. More specifically, like, because we're joining the animal rebellion, we've been posting about it on social media. And we had a lot of skeptical vegans say, are you guys sure? Do you know what you're getting into? Because, you know, there are issues that a lot of vegans don't seem to look into too much. They don't understand. And maybe that was a bit of a fault of animal rebellion not being very clear in their communication, which they've since rectified, which is fantastic. There's some great articles that they've put out recently. But basically, animal rebellion is a non-specist, abolitionist group. Anti-specist, yeah. What did I say? Non-specist. Right, anti-specist. The thing is, as Luka was saying, we kind of have to leverage off the environmental destruction and absolute... The climate process and... You know, what we're facing right now, we have to leverage off that in order to get what we want for animals. Yeah. Because if people don't care about animals, and let's face it, the majority don't, even after they see the footage, they still don't want to change, what do they care about? Well, maybe they'll care about the fact that we won't have water and won't have clean air and won't be able to survive on this planet. So if we can leverage off that to then get what we want for animals, hey, let's do that. Yeah, I'm completely down for it. And it's almost like that selfish, intrinsic selfishness. It's almost like built-in survival mechanism that human beings have. You have to have that for your family to hear that. It's all survival. So that's why this environment thing is all to do with, hey, your survival's at stake now, you've got to act. And that could be the same dynamic used similar to when people's rights are taken away. It's that survival thing that they're fighting for. So I'm fully down for that. I'm fully down for that as long as the victims aren't lost in their rhetoric. Well, that's the thing, like it's, you know, animal rights and animal liberation is about animals. It's not about, veganism is not about the environment. It's not about health. It's about the animals. But if we can use the environment to get what we need for animals, then let's do it. If we're getting the end goal that we all want, then use whatever path is available to us. That's going to work best to get us there. And the environment matters because of this entient life, the environment supports. And that's us, that's the animals. So, you know, it kind of is linked to the animals sort of by virtue of, you know, survival too. So let's give me a little overview of where you think the animal rights movement is heading and where you personally feel like you guys are heading. Well, I think what's going to happen on September, sorry, the 7th of October in London, in Berlin, in New York, I think, I think there's one in Australia as well. Seeing what's going to happen with the animal rebellion around that will definitely set the course if you like for the next stage is what we think. I think, yeah, extinction rebellion really set the benchmark, showed the example of how much attention we can get and how much we can push a movement forward through doing this type of creative, engaging, sustained, nonviolent direct action. And we see ourselves heavily being involved in that in the future because, you know, as we said at the beginning of this show, we've done a lot and we're kind of feeling drawn towards this. We're seeing the best results and the more we educate ourselves about this topic, we see that, yeah, sure, everything else is needed, but this is ultimately what's going to do it. And we're kind of getting a little tired. Oh, we want an end to this. So we're kind of wanting to do what we see is going to be the most effective and the most impactful way of creating this change that's needed so it can just be done, you know? But what do you think? I think you've said it very well. I feel your frustration and I have utmost respect for you both to be such fighters but not come from a fighting background. So I really do respect that and I just wanted to say, send my gratitude to you two guys because I don't know if many people know but like when I first got online, I was just like straight out of gangs. I was actually, I actually spoke a lot differently too. I was like, F this, F and C this and you know, I tell my story of surviving that world and surviving addiction and surviving suicide attempts and all of this and you guys gave me a massive shout out on your channel and I was, I woke up to it and I was tearing out of my eyes and I was so grateful and I just wanted to express my gratitude to you two and because that was about three years ago now, I think so and I have managed to make my way to the forefront of the movement through my advocacy and I just wanted to pay homage to you two because you guys are, you know you were online a year before me and you really gave me this shout out that sort of, before anyone was sort of respecting my work and you guys acknowledged my work back then. So thank you two and I love you both. Jai, thank you so much. It's the least we can do. We saw what was an incredible personal revolution that we admired and were inspired by and we knew could inspire countless others and has gone on to in fact inspire countless others and we thank you for your tireless work for the animals and it's a beautiful thing to be a comrade in this movement with somebody like yourself. So thank you so much. You know, one of the things we hear when we're traveling around is why does so many activists come out of Australia? You know, what's going on there? What's in the water? It's, yeah, I don't know if it's a cultural thing. I often say it's just a cultural thing. Oh my gosh, look at you tearing up this sweetheart. It's something, I don't know, but it's beautiful to share this with you and with the Aussie activists. And I think we've got this and we can do this. I do too, you guys. And you know, we'll keep fighting either way but I really do have a lot of optimism and I do think that this is inevitable. It's just a matter of time and when and a matter of when everyone joins us. I see you as the Morpheus of the animal rights movement with the unwavering belief in the prophecy that we can achieve animal rights. I mean, our belief that it's possible is huge, I believe. I do honestly, like from what you focus on grows and I do believe we have a movement full of doubters that will manifest and it will suck our motivation. And so I think that we need to have that belief and keep inspiring others and saying, look, this is possible, this is inevitable. It always has been, justice always prevails. As Martin Luther King Jr. said, the moral arc of the universe is long but it bends towards justice. Amazing, amazing. Well, thank you both for joining me for this and I'm super excited to do this with you guys and I'm utmost respectful of your work and keep fighting, keep going and never give up. Thank you, May. You too. Right back at you, May. Thanks so much. Thanks for having us on. Thanks, Joey, thank you. Thank you. Absolutely amazing, you two. Well, thank you. You guys, you're on tour with the Direct Action.