 Hi, hello. We are live and kicking off this creative careers panel titled Tipping the Scale, Maximizing Resources at Small to Mid-Size Theater Companies. Oh, looking here, hello. Okay, let's get started. My name is SK Carrastis. I am a social justice theater artist, organizer, and educator based in the Bay Area. And I have three really awesome Small to Mid-Size Theater leaders with me one in person and two via online. And I think lots of viewers watching via the internet too. It's a little surreal, but here we are. We're just gonna roll with it. Yeah, so why don't we take a moment and just have each of the panelists introduce themselves and then I'll do some logistics and we'll jump into the conversation. Cool. Let's start with Mina Merida. If you could just say your name, title and theater company and your preferred gender pronouns. I forgot to name mine, mine are they and them. Great. Hi, I'm Mina Merida. I'm the Artistic Director for Crotted Fire Theater here in San Francisco. And I prefer gender pronouns she, her, hers. Awesome. Let's try David Lozano. Are you there? Here I am. Hello all. My name is David Lozano. I am the Executive Artistic Director. We'll cut on your theater company in Dallas and my gender preferred gender pronoun is, is there anything else? Yeah, I'm so sorry, David. You cut out right, as you said, my preferred gender pronoun. Will you mind just repeating that for us? I may need to find a better situation here. I may need to move around a little bit. Okay, all right. That's cool. E-M and. Got it. No, that's it. That's it. Great. Thank you for that. Will Davis, same intro for you please. Hi, my name is Will Davis and I am the new Artistic Director at American Theater Company in Chicago. I use he and him as my pronouns and that's about it. Great. Thank you so much. Such a pleasure and honor to be here with the three of you. Super exciting. Before we get started, just a special thanks to American Express and the Bay Tree Fund for supporting this program. Shout out to HowlRound and huge thank you to Will and Mina and David for the work that you all do running these companies. Thank you. Here's how it's gonna go. Flow of Convo, I'm gonna give a little introduction context, some thoughts and then I have a couple key questions that panelists are gonna answer and I'd love to make room for folks to respond to each other after the questions. Would love to just get into discussion as soon as possible. Yeah, yeah. So we'll go with that. Oh, and then later in the conversation I think we're gonna take some questions from viewers from the internet. If you'd like to pose one, just hashtag creative careers and yeah, I think maybe like three-fourths through the combo we'll see about those questions. Awesome. So, yeah, the title of this panel is Tipping the Scale, Maximizing Resources at Small to Mid-sized Theater Companies. You know, I was thinking a lot about this word resources last night and over the weekend and what that means and how so often for us it just means money and it means like someone else's money, you know? And I was inspired to look up the root of the word. Sometimes that kind of gives me some poetic insight into it and so I'd love to share that with everyone. I was pretty surprised by what I found, kind of the oldest root for this word resource is serger, which means to rise. Yeah, so surprising, huh? And then the next one was from, I don't know, Old French or something, res-or-dre, and that one means to rise again, to rally, to recover. Yeah, and then the latest one I found was from French resource say, whatever, and that means a source, a spring. Can I keep going? Great, sorry y'all. Yeah, so maybe as more of a poetic start, I just wanted to share that with folks that really sort of inspired me to think differently about this word. There seemed to be some sort of rhythm in these meetings, not a static situation. It felt collective and moving, and like a cycle, almost like a breath, or the way that we come together and step apart. Yeah, it made me think of people. So on that note, I'd love to kick off the first question. The order that will go is Mina and then Will and David. So here's my first question, right? Folks in small to mid-sized theater companies need to have a fundamentally unique understanding of resources, and in my experience, in these types of companies, the word community also tends to mean something deeper than just ticket buyer or audiences. Mina, can you talk about how these ideas of community and resources inform each other at your theater? Yeah, I mean, I think we're in a unique time, and if we're going to be doing any kind of work, that the work should have deep meaning and relevance to whether it's community, and you know, community means many different things, whether it's geographic, artistic community, whether it's the community that is in most need close to us or the community that we are serving with the message that is deeply invested in in terms of the art we're making. So when I think of that, I think of that first, and we're at crowded fire, we're really, when I think of resource, I think of our tribe, our staff, our board, our resident artists, all who lend their voice and their perspective to the conversation, and so we start with a relational relationship, leadership style where we come from inside and then we ask the question of the communities around us, what is the need that you have, and we're getting better at that. I feel like we should always be stretching to get better at that so that we can be responsive to that need, and you know, there's a lot of steps we still have to take, whether it's everything from mentorship to true community relationships, and again, true and authentic, or words that have been sort of bandied around, but like how do we create a community advisory group so that we can start to think about like, how are we, you know, who is speaking for the need and how are we responding, and then from that, where does the art come from, and then also in terms of the art, how is form and innovation pushing the conversation, so it's not just about empathy, it is about empathy, but it's also about interrogation, so it's not just about the comfort of what we usually want to hear, it's also about like, what's hard for us to hear and why, so I think about that, and then when I think about resource, which is definitely people for us, because it isn't financial right now for us, we're small, it is about connection, and so the more of our board or staff or resident artists are connected to the folks in the communities we serve, and the more that trust is built and that artistic home is built together, that community home is built together, then we can actually hopefully be honing in on what is most necessary, so it means being flexible, it means we also can take risks in some ways that other groups can't because we can say things and what does failure mean actually right now, like, and who cares, so I think, yeah, there's so much connected to this, I went around a little bit, but definitely it's about being flexible, it's about listening, it's deep listening, and outreach, and it's less about what kind of buildings I'm building and it's less about how many staff we have and it's less about transactional relationships, about how many ticket buyers are coming into the theater, it's more about like, how deep are we getting into the conversation to interrogate in order to respond to the needs of our communities? Yes, snaps. Great, thank you, Mina. We're gonna, I'll move on to Will and then we'll make space for folks to respond to each other. Hi. Oh, goodness, and I can hear myself talking, so I hope. So I love this question that you're asking and there are a couple of things that it makes me think about that sit next to each other, but then also the dovetail. So I think the first thing I wanna say is that when you ask this question about resource and also when you read the, you know, the dramaturgy of the word, I try and make a point, you know, I'm new, this is my first artistic director gig, so I'm, you know, I'm on a very steep learning curve right now, but I thus far have made a point in curtain speeches to talk about resources in terms of a monetary contribution, but also in terms of what else it might mean. I'm trying to throw the door open a little bit towards this idea of the resource that is community building, the resource that is, you know, the brain trust of ideas that can come in the door that, you know, can originate with the staff or can originate with our audience and we can create a larger ecosystem, really, of resource that, you know, has as many different inputs, only one of which is cash, you know, and particularly I think it's important to be thinking about, not just, it's important to be thinking creatively about what it is we need, you know, and also important to be thinking creatively about what our community needs, like where the two-way street is. I'm a really big fan of this phrase, a rising tide lifts all boats and it's kind of a personal, you know, drumbeat for me of thinking about as a person who's coming in to rebuild this company and is super focused on the resource we need, also making sure I'm taking the time to think about who's in the artistic community around me, who's in the non-artistic community around me, you know, nationally as a field and what is it that I can provide, you know? I love how I hear so many folks talk about this sort of metric of scarcity and abundance and I try and think about that and talk about that a lot with our staff here about, yeah, we're in these rebuilding years when there's this scarcity situation happening over here but on the other side of that, on the abundant side of that, what do we have to offer which brings me to the second piece which is, you know, one of the reasons I wanted to take this job was about the idea of shepherding a civic space. I was saying this earlier, I am a director and I will continue to be a director, that's not why I wanted to be an artistic director, I wanted to be an artistic director to be engaging in civic dialogue around, you know, through the lens of art making and particularly as we've been coming through this last week I've been thinking a lot about that and again, thinking about, you know, for me relocating from New York, we have this building. I mean, we don't really have this building, it's not actually ours but we have this building enough that like, that's a way, that's a resource I can offer and you know, that's something we've been thinking about in terms of community building in our neighborhood and in the city is on a very simple level making sure that the doors feel open in an authentic way and then of course, you know, that's actually like pretty deep work, you know, like saying the doors are open is a fairly passive statement, like opening a door is not the same as interrogating what kind of door you have, like making sure, you know, that it's, it actually feels open to other folks, you know, so I know that's something that I'm really trying to process and get some context around right now because it's important to me to feel like there's a dialogue going on in here that can spark other dialogue once folks leave the building and I'll leave it there. Cool, thank you so much for that Will, really appreciate it. Say what? Dave, what? I'm sorry. Hi, thank you Will, I'm just navigating. You're doing great, you're doing great. David, next, please, if you're there, go ahead. Okay, so let me know if I break up and I will turn off the video and I'll just use the microphone. Well, academia has operated fundamentally through two initiatives, which has been our bread and butter. It's like in football, run the ball straight up the middle or swing right or swing left. So we produce main stage plays about the Latino experience in the United States and then we have a variety of programs for youth that are taught and developed by our resident ensemble members. On reflection, I look at what makes our organization or our company unique is that our, I identified four phrases and words that identify the cycle of our work. I would say that our work is, at first, is community building. I think through our productions as well as our programs for youth involve community building through our season of plays. I would say that there's a level of self-discovery that takes place with our programs. There's a level of ceremony and there is also another step of ecstasy that our community and our artists experience. And I think that these four stages have been like a cycle and a spiral that has allowed us to grow with our audiences and our community and we built from this passionate source and as we built from this, we've also begun as cultivated our transactional possibilities to generate revenue. However, it seems like this week, we're starting to break through from this spiral in another way. It seemed that our work was so community based, so much centered on social and political issues, especially local issues, that we decided to hire the first curator of community action. And this person would create events around all of our productions to create conversations so that people could find a way to identify ways to act civically and culturally in our community. Now, when we hired this person, we got more than we bargained for. We hired a civil rights and community organizer with over 40 years experience. And so he was much more Ernest McMillan, if you know Defina McMillan, Defina is his daughter. And so Ernest has this, he's not only an educational dramaturg, he's not only capable of leading conversations and coordinating programs, but he has this facility, this lightning fast, lightning quick facility to bring people together and move precisely towards an issue and begin identifying plans of action. So he's only been with us for three months, but the possibilities of his interaction with the community are great. And so we're at a point right now, we're actually at a great point of transition as an organization because we are assuming this role of artists who are engaged with issues in the real world. And Ernest is facilitating this, but it's also parallel to a lot of our own initiatives as individual members of the company who are becoming more involved in issues regarding housing, transportation, education in the city and also arts and the neighborhoods, which are cultural deserts. So we're at a point right now where we don't know exactly how these community action initiatives are going to sustain themselves, but what we're seeing is this growth of a family of people who are involved in Caramia and also involved in the community. And although I think we've broken through this spiral that we've survived by operating with for so long, I think that this is just becoming another step. So I guess instead of four steps, we were adding the step of community action. And I have faith in the goodwill of our community that we'll find ways to sustain it because I think everyone feels that we need it at this very moment. So we're kind of liminal space right now where we don't really know how this will all unfold, but we're being open and we're going to begin integrating these experiences with community action events into our strategic plan over the next nine months. Great, thank you so much, David. And thank you to all of the panelists, super inspiring stuff to hear from you. Yeah, lots of themes coming up for folks and just want to name something that I'm hearing and something that I've heard a lot this past week is sort of this emphasis on the collective and on doing things together as opposed to sort of the individual or the ego or what have you. Just want to name that. Let's take maybe 10 minutes to respond to each other. Does anyone have anything pressing that they'd like to name or respond to, you know, something that someone else said? You know, I felt a little prescriptive because I think that it's very complex. And so I, but I think that fundamentally that's what we're doing whenever we begin or at least our seasons and our plays. So I wanted to, you know, refer to Mina's statement about the work that intact the part of the, what builds community with Academy of Theater is that we choose to interrogate our selves and the society in which we live in and do so boldly. And some people will tell us that we take risks and they're really impressed with that, but I feel that that's inherent in what we do as theater artists. You know, a lot of the political people that come to see our work, the community people that come to see our work, they all appreciate the risks that we take even though they may not identify them as artistic risks. So I think the question of interrogation is a vital aspect of what we do as artists. That's great. And I was really curious, David, in terms of that's so exciting in terms of having this new role within the staff and community action. I was wondering also just so that I can learn what kinds of ideas are starting to formulate around community action specifically so that we can learn from those best practices and start to think about those out here as well. Well, what's happening? So the way we began was to be very straightforward and not unlike what most theaters are doing with a community engagement branch of the theater in which to deepen the understanding of the plays and its themes. We just wanted to turn the dial just one notch or a few notches by calling it community action rather than just community engagement so that the goal of our interaction with young people and with adults surrounding our plays involved identifying points of action rather than just to leave a play contemplating ideas. So the early panels and programs were really about delving into the themes and then, for example, the last panel, the last program, the last play provided a lot of opportunities to talk about voting and becoming involved in organizations, advocacy and activist organizations. What's starting to happen now is there is a growing synergy among artists and also advocates for other community interests right now and also through the interests of each of the artists we're actually starting to integrate and meet people who are dealing with affordable housing and transportation and also how do we bring arts to the neighborhoods. And so this is also something that is unforeseen actually but by the mere fact of having someone who is an organizer as opposed to a dramaturg or a trained theater artist or a scholar, an organizer in this role has created a magnet of, it go directly to organizing as opposed to academic and literary ideas. And at first, and I would say and sometimes it feels a little overwhelming because it seems like we could be on the verge of becoming an organization that is organizing but I think that there's a real care for the company. I think that the community that is involved with us understands our resources and understands our needs as well. So we're still kind of in a learning process right now where we were bringing in, so for example, last past Saturday I was in Atlanta but this past Saturday Ernest had a community conversation with some people who want to continue contributing to our community action events over the next year and they all bring interests outside of just the arts but they were very cognizant of our needs as an organization's system itself. But still there's a capacity for us to really move into supporting activist movements in town. That's great, congratulations, that's exciting, exciting work. Yeah, super exciting to hear. Any thoughts from Will? Or actually specifically what I would like to hear from Will just sort of building on this community action thing can you talk about the meal that ATC just held like a couple days ago? Yeah, absolutely. So Wednesday morning I just asked the staff to gather with me in the theater so we could do a little breathing together and just set some intentions for ourselves and for how we wanted to proceed really with the day and then with the week. And when we sat and had a really good conversation and what came out of that was again, certainly it was something I felt and was echoed back by the group which is some sense of like we need to provide something. I don't know what it is but we need to give something to our community and we're talking about it and it became clear that there are a lot of folks who are interested in participating in organizing and making some things happen but in the short term we could offer the space for conversation. So I sent out an e-blast that I really didn't think much of. I didn't think it was really gonna cause much of a ripple that just said, we're here today. If you would rather be with somebody, if you would rather, if you need to have a conversation, if you just wanna stop by and sit down, we're here, come over and we don't know what it is but we're gonna have an event on Friday. And I got this overwhelming amount of mail back saying, thank you, thank you, thank you. And then I also got a series of responses that were very angry and that in itself was fascinating. But anyway, so ultimately what we decided to do is to host like a long table potluck conversation. So we made a big long table in the theater and we tried to decorate the space which seemed important to me. And we invited folks to come and bring food and feed each other. And we had some folks signing up who wanted to offer some body work. We had some folks who signed up to do people's makeup. We had some folks who signed up to give hand massages. And a really amazing thing happened, which is I'm not saying it's solving anything in any way, but people just kept coming through the door all night. I was there until midnight, if not a little bit later, sitting and talking with folks who just needed some fellowship. And so it felt like it didn't feel like it was a really wonderful space in which no one was being asked for money, I'm not trying to push any of my programming agendas. I'm trying to use the space as a civic space for the community to come in and have dinner with each other. And I'd like to do it again. And the thing that's been rattling through my head since Friday night is just this sense of, I'm really getting the sense from the other folks on the panel. And I think this is probably a value that many of us share that we're interested in how we can be agents for change in small ways and big ways. And after Friday night, I was thinking about, one of the things that I think was happening, I was listening to people starting to organize themselves with each other about, I can provide you this, I can do this, I know about this thing, here's a list of resources for this. And there are also just people giving each other hugs. But I was thinking about this idea of, yeah, change through fellowship, the idea that there's change that certainly, I want us as a company to be thinking about and spearheading. And then there's also the change that hopefully we can just be a seeding ground, a planting space for, that because of your intersection here in the theater, you have tools and resources from a small thing to maybe a larger thing to leave and participate in your community, or just have a friend. So yeah, there was just some, I will just the last thing I'll say is there was just something so striking about everyone coming together to feed each other, that for me as a person who is thinking a lot about the communities I identify with and belong to, thinking about how we are a powerful group of people who can take care of each other and honestly defend each other. It was really incredible to be in that room and hold space for comfort on a basic level. Cool, thank you for that Will. Yeah, I think it's a really unique time we're in right now and I hear Mina and David and Will talking about intersectionality and allyship and connection and relationships on macro levels, I mean macro levels and micro levels as well, sort of interpersonal, as well as the systemic. You've got like Katamia Theater working with an organizer, which is just really amazing and I also wanna lift up, well and you have like, right Will being like we have this building, let's eat together, right? There is clearly this like very present need for folks to connect. Yeah and I also just wanna lift up, I know this is maybe like moving backwards a little bit but something that I'm really inspired by that Mina did was co-direct the shipments with another director whose identity represented really what the show was exploring, the identities that the show was exploring and I just think this sort of idea of like shared power and reaching out and connecting with people in that respect is a thrust that is gonna move us forward from this moment. So yeah, I wanna like open it up to the internet. I also want to like maybe create more space to directly talk about this past week and a lot of stuff has come up about flexibility and about change and I don't know, interrogating this door as Will says, Mina mentioned authenticity. There's this idea that small to mid-sized theaters can be flexible, they can move fast and respond to what's going on in our world. Is that true and what do we do right now? Hard question, tough question. Well, I just, one small thing I wanna say is that as I'm transitioning into this job and going through this experience of this first year, it's been explained to me that I'm not gonna start to make my own mistakes until next year. One of the things that I'm actually trying to keep as a very precious thing is my ignorance about the institutional workings and I'm trying to do what I'm always trying to do but expand the net, which is live my ethics through my art and continually thinking about, I'm trying to re-center this company around a few of those ethics based questions and ideas and just continually remembering and thinking about what's at the top of the list, like what are those three things at the top of the list that must be obeyed? I know many of us are very excitingly talking a lot about inclusivity, finding that sort of a new rising tide lifts all boats moment and then because we're saying that there's this added responsibility of what actually we're talking about and in what ways are we actually providing that, interrogating our definitions of that and continually striving to do that. Do more and do better but the reason I'm saying all of this in response to this flexibility question is that so far I'm finding that very much to be true that in this first year that there is the ability for us to quickly respond to something because the team is at such a size and I mean myself, the staff, the board are extended ATC community, we are small enough that on a simple level, I can send an email that will get to everyone and we can all decide to turn left. That there's a space there and I think an energy there that is this scrappy, smaller sense that no matter what we got to do more with less and that makes us nimble in a way I think because doing more with less requires that your creative thinking, your creative problem solving is being engaged daily. I mean, I just pulled all the carpet out of this office with my two hands, you know, it's like small stuff and big stuff but I feel like yeah, I absolutely can affect big change because we're flexible. Cool, thank you, Mina. Yeah, the day after the election I was on a plane to New York because Crowd of Fire is part of the Theater Communications Group Equity, Diversity and Inclusion Institute which I believe you are all as well maybe and one of the themes of the conversation was how do we shift value? What is valued? Who defines value? Who sits high in the power structure to set those parameters and how much especially as we think of our boards and the people that are hiring in leadership, how they're in the foundations and the people who are in the philanthropy circle, how are they determining value and over the last several decades it's been so much about sustainability, you know, growth, product, you know, in terms of the art and it's been held in this very capitalistic structure and I think one big, more of a like a large piece that I'm thinking about is how do we band together and shift the definition of value? How do we shift it to relationship? Because community and lateral conversations, you know, and holistic conversations are actually what has the power potentially to move us out of the space we've just found ourselves in or has existed and is now visible to us and is going to be exacerbated. So that has been in my mind a lot in the last several days and thinking about leadership, how drastically change in leadership can make a difference including for our country, including for our institutions, our organizations and when we hire in people who are people of color, trans, queer, you know, people who have immigrant families, people who have the experience of in many cases, otherness up until now are going to be the people who set us forth as we head to 2044 when we are already a majority here in California but we will be a majority and I think, you know, this push-pull is what we're going to be fighting. So I think about those two things and then on a very immediate level in response, I think it's like what kind of art coalition building can we be doing in the circles we move in? Like we just did every 28 hours across this country. We did it with Berkeley Rap, ACT, Crowded Fire, Lorraine Hansper and Campo Santo and that was an incredibly moving event where theaters of all sizes came together and why isn't that happening on a more regular basis? And, you know, all it takes is someone to say yes, actually and I wonder like how that's going to play out in the next couple months. I know we're going to be doing hands up seven, playwright seven testaments on Friday night as part of our matchbox reading series and it was, you know, something to talk about. Like it's not a play in development, but so what? I mean, like what do we need, what matters? So these different elements can really come together towards that wave of change. Yeah, thank you. I want to just lift up something Nina just said and something that everyone is, you know, I feel like so much is being said in this conversation that needs to be like, you know, given space but just this idea of valuing, you know, the lived experience of otherness, you know, within the structures of theaters, theater companies. You know, I organize with Lisa Evans a lot and we talk about, we're like circling around this idea of impact, you know, we're sort of, it feels like we're stuck on like representation just in the art, but not necessarily like in positions of power and in the way we share power and how we're structured, right? And that relates to like the makeup of the company and how it functions. It relates to like what kind of art we're putting on and it relates to interrogating the door, right? There's so much I think beyond just the art that maintains sort of systems of oppression, you know, and white supremacy in our structures just to name it. We have a question from the internet which I will first pose to David because I feel like he hasn't gotten space in a minute. So the question is, what are you sharing with your emerging artists about the way forward? And we've got maybe 15 minutes left on this. I think that, you know, like I said, we're in a period of transition and, you know, as I was listening to the conversations, listening to discussion and thinking about this past week, I thought about some of the challenges that we're having as a company at this point of our transition. I think that they're, I'm listening and as a director of a small company, it's so valuable for me to company and sometimes they're tough. And especially when an organization like ours is taking on this capacity for community action and what that means to the art. So, but, you know, but when I look at, you know, this past week, I feel that actually our community is depending on us to provide these sorts of these actions, these or this capacity to reflect in the whole space for discussions. So I think that it's been very interesting for me because I think that what we're seeing, this has been a year of transitions, I think in so many ways, in so many levels. And I think that what's happening within our organization is that we're seeing younger people become integrated into our company. And so we have a process in which we have three levels of awareness, which is performers, which is the first level is myself as an individual. The second level is the constellation of the ensemble. And the third level is the space that includes the audience. And we've begun talking about that in terms of our relationship in the world, that we are conscious of ourselves and of our own personal needs, personal needs of our family and community and then of the world. And it seems to be very profound in these times because it seems like we cannot afford to not be conscious of that third level of awareness which is the world. So I would say that the younger generation of artists that were teaching in schools and high schools as well as working with the college age, they're really immersing themselves in this sort of vision. And that's what we're offering. Cool. Anyone else wanna jump in on that one? I'm trying to offer as many free things as I'm capable of. Tonight will be the last in what has been 10 weeks of free artist residencies here. And next year I gotta write a grant for it. But it's the way I wanted to start. My tenure here was in providing space for expression with as no gates, no gatekeeping. And we've had a really tremendous run of folks who are early on in their craft, folks who are trying something new. We've had some folks have had residencies who are well known in this community as actors who have written a play for the first time and wanted to work on it. So one of the things I'm trying to recenter the company around is process and the value of process, the value of sharing process and making sure that we're lifting that up like outside of a sort of capitalistic system of getting something done, but instead thinking about what it means to prize swimming in the question. And one of the things that's been powerful for me is over 50% of the people who have come in the doors in the last 10 weeks have never been in this building before. And having the opportunity to say to as many people as possible, come in, let me know what you need, let me know how I can participate or this company can participate in fulfilling that and trying to make sure that I'm as loudly as possible saying to the community, what's mine is yours. I don't, the kingdom's not so big right now, but like if it's here, you can have it, you know? So part of that is me coming off of three years of freelancing and wishing for a little more low pressure space to try scary things and work on new things. And another part of it is, I really am excited to see how we as a field are starting to expand our definition of what the theater is and maybe more importantly, starting to expand the structures of storytelling we're working in and just the structures of performance making that we're working in. And I think some of that includes social justice work and includes, you know, nonlinear concepts of time and space and I'm just hopeful that what we're providing here is continues to be a free platform of mentorship for folks who wanna come in and work on something with themselves and for folks who wanna come in and work on something with someone else, you know? So, you know, that's, I'm just thinking on that today because today's the end of that residency and I'm excited to see what happens with those projects. I'm excited to understand if in fact it will have an impact on those artists and that work this year as those pieces move forward. Cool, thanks for that Will. So we have one more question from someone watching live on HowlRound which by the way we've given you all like no love, hello, thank you for watching. So yeah, anyone is open to fielding this and then we'll close out. The question is, any advice for people trying to start a new company? I think gather around you the people who are varied in all kinds of skills and perspectives. Keep that circle big enough but not too tight either. And I think it's just about resilience, like continue to find process. I love the idea of process and whatever the work is that you're trying to build. I remember sitting around a table with six other people like 12 years ago. We were like, how do you start a theater company? I don't know, we like had little index cards about our vision and then now 12 years later it's a $2 million company which is insane. But we were painting in my garage. We were calling on all of our family and friends to help. We knew that we needed a board of people who would support us and provide us with good advice from all walks of life educators, people who were in the corporate sphere but also nonprofit sphere was important. Trying to find your mentors that are close to your graphically to you so you can ask really specific questions about how to proceed. And I think hone in on what your mission is. What kind of work as a group are you really interested in doing? So that you're all on the same page as you move forward and then that will organically shift but at least you'll have that start as far as vocabulary. Find out from other small theater companies around you that have been around for maybe three years what kind of funding sources that they've reached out to. I think people are way more willing to share if you ask so call up lots of people for coffee. I've had a lot of coffee. Yeah. Thank you. Anyone else on that question? Oh, we lost David. Wow, okay. Well, we've got just like a few more minutes left. I wanted to say just returning a little bit to like the emerging artists question and just share that I was at a protest in downtown Oakland on Wednesday night and there was a rally first and it was a lot of different sort of organizers coming together. I think there were over 7,000 people. That's at least what the news said and I've been to a lot of protests this past year and this one, I feel like I saw different faces and I also saw a lot of young people there and one thing that the organizers did which just like brought me to tears the symbolic meaning was so deep and impactful was they invited all the young people or the people with kids to come to the front and had those folks lead this March of 7,000 people. Yeah, and it was really, really incredible. So I just wanna like name that like you're worthy and you're worthy of leading us right now even in this very moment. And a lot of times I think young people get told that and then like there isn't any backup any follow-up but I do think there's like a really unique opportunity right now to be heard and your voice is super valuable. So I don't know, SK just wants to put that out there as well. Yeah, did you wanna add some things? No, that is yes. Yeah, it's real and you know like the news right now in at least in the Bay Area is that like high school students are walking out on the daily to protest right? It's really, really power. So snaps to that. I have like a little close out thought but and I guess we, David is no longer on the call or in the panel but if Mina and Will you have any last thoughts you wanna share or anything you wanna, you know. I wanna say one small thing which is just you know actually to bring this full circle back to resources. Conversations like this I think are so wonderful. You know what Nina was saying earlier about sharing and many people's interest in sharing. I just wanna like echo that I completely agree with that and think it's really true and that you know we as a field have a lot of potential I think a lot more potential than we are accessing right now to share with each other, skill share, resource share and also band together and make projects together you know like that's something that I am hoping to work on more in my tenure at ATC and very interested in trying to promote a little bit more in the field that I think that we have an incredible opportunity with you know the continual curtail of arts funding to think about how we can work with each other and how we can offer things to each other. So I think I just for me a closing thing is to say you know just a slightly broader version of what I was saying before which is I want ATC to be like a very accessible space to the folks here in the Chicago community but also the folks broadly nationally it would be a real pleasure to be of some service you know. So write me a note I'll read it. Thanks well how about you Mina? I'm going to try to encapsulate something Carmen Morgan who is one of the folks who runs the equity diversity and inclusion institute said that really touched me in the last couple days is that she's been an activist I mean she's been on the border she's been in the city she's done a lot of frontline direct community action and organizing and she said there is that and demonstration there has been policy change and the reason why she's working in the arts with artists now is the power of the narrative and the stories and the representation we put out there have the ability to change how someone deeply value use or feels about something and it's not just a passing empathy it's actually a behavior shift and you know I've been thinking a lot about like is the art I do enough it's a real question right now and that made me realize that it's more than enough and we each have what we can give another community organizer and I said get in where you fit in and we each have our own truths and our own frame and our own experience and we just need to get in there and the arts have a great value as long as we don't stay insular we have to get out so that's like just my passing thought to the people you all who are gonna be leading us in now. Thank you so much to you both. I'm gonna give a quick shout out thank you to American Express for supporting this and same to the Baytree Fund and I wanna give a deep, deep thank you to Mina and Will and David. You know the work y'all do is you know I don't know if I can like convey this moment but I just wanna like I know leadership can sometimes be lonely and you don't get told that you're doing a good job and like from a personal place like I know the work of all three of you and you're doing a really good job so thank you we need you right now and that's it thanks so much for watching everyone.