 Hi, welcome to CCTV Channel 17 Live 525 Preservation Burlington Show. Preservation Burlington is a non-profit 501C3 organization and our mission is to preserve and protect the historic architecture and livability of Burlington through education and advocacy. I'd like to thank everybody for tuning in this month and I'd like to thank my guest, Mary O'Neill from the City Zoning Office. We're not zoning anymore. I know. We're permitting and inspections. Permitting and inspections. That's got a nicer ring to it. But that's not what you're here for, right? It doesn't roll off the tongue. I know. We see each other every couple of weeks since I'm on the design advisory board and, you know, us preservationists have to stick together. And speaking of which, so you're going to tell me about the work that you did with the Burlington Electric Company, I mean the Burlington Electric Department, because they were working towards their net zero policy and how that pertains to all of our historic buildings in Burlington. Well we had a meeting when David White was our director, so that's a number of years ago, 2019, around the same time the mayor adopted the net zero goals, net zero energy to reach these goals by 2030. So in December of 2019, we met with Burlington Electric and the scope of the conversation was, you know, how can we deliver this message that can offer some design guidance, maybe some good examples, in the context of energy efficiency, energy conservation and weatherization. You know, can we work together on this? Of course our concern remains, you know, we have so much of the city that's listed as historic on the state or national register, and what will this mean, what can this present for changes to our historic building stock. So that's where we started in December of 2019. We brought, I'm very grateful, I should back up and say that I applied for a grant for, through our certified government program, of which you are aware. This is a partnership we have between National Park Service, the State of Vermont Division for Historic Preservation, and the City of Burlington, that if we have... Certified local government. Correct. And that allows us, because we are one of those, that allows us to apply for these funds to help us with projects. Exactly. Yes, thank you. You know, I speak about this so often I forget that people don't understand what a CLG is, but we have, since 1991, Burlington has been a certified local government. We have received in excess of, I want to say, a quarter of a million dollars in funding from them for projects that have totaled almost half a million. So it's been a very successful program with us in exercising projects. So I applied for a grant to try to create this design guide. And right off the bat, Burlington Electric Department was a partner with us and said, you know, well, we can bring an intern on and we'll do the research on what other communities are doing. And so we had our first partner there, subsequently they hired someone, also as an intern, to continue the research. And so I should say we're very grateful to the National Park Service for being an initial funder for this. Now that's where the grant funds come from, from the National Park Service, right? And then so BED was, pardon, coughing up also. So they were contributing to- They partnered with us, yeah. We had the initial seed to get going. Burlington Electric was able to subsidize what we did get from the grant, so we were able to grant match. And it was enormously helpful because the project, as most projects occur, take more time, cost more money, and in this case, involved more people. But we got such a quality project out of it that I think it was a success all the way around. You brought a lot of talent to the table to figure it out. So from those initial conversations, and then BED came involved, and there was, you said, one or two interns also helping with the research. One subsequent to another, Abigail Ahern was the one that kind of carried it too far enough that we could give it to a professional design group. And we had volunteers that were just extraordinary, and folks that are doing the design work, doing the construction work, doing this implementation of building science, and they were happy to join us. I mean, we had Jesse Beck from Freeman French Freeman, Rebecca Grannis has her own company, Heather Clark is involved in building science, Tom Visser from the University of Vermont. We had a contingent from Burlington Electric, including Chris Burns and Bob Boland, and Catherine Lang, also a registered architect who works quite frequently with historic buildings. So we had folks that came with a body of knowledge and experience, and all very, very anxious to help. All heavy hitters. All of them. I don't know why I was in the room. Yeah, right. Okay. So anyway, that aside, so what was the, I mean, was it early on you've decided the format? I know I saw that there was a podcast that was developed over this, right? We did a webinar, a training webinar. It captured the attention of the National Park Service, which I'm quite delighted, and it became ultimately a remote option for the National Trust Conference, which was hosted last fall. So we did get some national exposure on this, yeah. Cool. So what were some of the findings? How do we get historic buildings to net zero? Well, again, it's like in this context, how do we achieve thermal comfort? How do we improve both the livability for the occupants and the physical elements of the building while reducing our energy consumption and just plain being more comfortable? So I'm guessing no spray foam. Well, I can't say one way or the other, actually. We did establish some goals. Know your building. Understand completely what your building is. What's the use? Is it residential? Is it commercial? Do you have people going in and out? Is it a masonry building? Is it wood clappered? Is it post and beam? So getting that, zeroing in on first, what do you have? And then second, the recommendation is evaluate the performance. It can be a blower door test, it can be thermal imaging, it can just be experience. Some people came to us and said, I'm always cold in this room. This is one thing I want to address. Establish that baseline. Find out what you have, find out where those weaknesses are, and then once you have this information, determine goals. It might be just something, like I said, I have air infiltration here, I'm cold in this room, I want to address it. Or if you're anticipating a more major renovation to incorporate improvements at that time when your building might be under construction. Yeah, it's disturbed anyway, so what can you do to increase your efficiency at that point? Setting goals, then afterwards evaluate your performance. Did you get to where you wanted to be? Maybe you want to just spend less on your fuel or your heating costs. Maybe you're aiming for, you know, even reducing the wind. You know, the wind is making my house cold. The guidance document even addresses landscape improvements that have to do with how your building is shaded, how it's protected. You want to have deciduous trees on the west and on the south to provide that shade in the summer to reduce the heating or your cooling need in the summer months, you know, conifer trees on the north to provide warmth. Sort of back to how we used to plan for buildings, like way back in the beginning before we had to really worry about systems inside the buildings, right? Everybody's wondering, where's the sun coming from? How do I want to face the building? Exactly. What's going to shield me from the wind, the north wind in the winter time? I mean, those are inherently sustainable things that we don't even think about now. And luckily our historic buildings have already considered them a lot of times, right? Exactly. In the part of the evaluating your building, you can pick those things out about, you know, window transparency and daylighting. I know my house is over 200 years old and it faces south. Most of the daylighting comes from the south. I mean, that is an inherently sustainable element that you would want to protect and ensure, you know, so things like that. So when you're factoring in for, again, back to the catchphrase net zero and I'm not going to pick on it or anything, but you know, we don't want to spend any energy and we don't want to emit any carbon, you know. So did you or did the conversation get to factor in embodied energy? And you know, is there a goal, like I've been on projects that are like Champlain College's Perry Hall, it's a lead platinum project. We retained historic windows, we added storm windows, we did high VOC finishes for the woodwork inside, but that was, that we cap and traded with the zero VOC other finishes at these, you know. So there was a little months and months and months of back and forth and ongoing and, you know, it was a big learning experience, but. And evaluating what the effects of each alteration is. How do you get to platinum, lead platinum, when you're keeping these old components and then what do you do? And you know, there's a bunch of anecdotes about that. But so was there a lot of conversation about that with this group of heavy hitters? Well, we talked about what an energy retrofit is, you know, it's not blowing out all the windows, replacing the roof and padding the outside with thermal panels. In the context of this guidance document, an energy retrofit can be either modifications to what's there or additions that include systems or alterations specifically to increase the energy efficiency. So within the context of historic buildings, and by all means, this guide is good for anybody. You don't have to have a 100 year, 150 year old house. A lot of it is common sense. We're going to look at these building components. So looking at roofs and doors and windows and walls and insulation. And then we get to the mechanical systems and they are common sense actions. And again, this isn't intended to move us entirely to net zero. The guide is actually called a path to net zero. So we're going to begin and this is going to be methods, a methodology, process and strategies to get us towards more comfortable buildings, healthier buildings, more comfortable occupants and less energy use. So it's a mindset and it's like you said, you called it a guideline. It's just that. So, you know, because you can hear these things and be intimidated and say, oh, I'm going to start looking at what I have to do to my historic building or my old house, just an old house and go, too expensive and push it to the side. Well, isn't that the first thing? I mean, that we typically hear is, oh, I live in an old house. I can't do anything, right? And of course, that's not true. Of course, of course, it's not true. What are these baby steps that we can do that are heading us in the right direction and if there's an opportunity? I know I replaced my oil boiler with high efficiency boilers when Vermont Gas offered, it was just a perfect timing. They offered just enough funding towards it. See, it was the right time to do it. Again, it's the timing and the planning and the long run. The guide, as it was completed, offers a reference section at the end. But and it can be for engaging a building scientist, someone who works regularly, whether it's an engineer or an architect or a people that can analyze these issues like the building envelope. But on the point I was going to get to about, oh, these changes can be very inexpensive. And easily done. And they range up to, depending upon what your appetite is, more complex and ultimately more expensive. Some folks are diving in headfirst into geothermal. And they can be many splits on the outside, or they can be entirely closed loop vertical in the ground systems. So I mean, like any mechanical system, there's going to be low end and high end. So there's a light explanation of what they are. And there are references for additional help, if you want to inquire. So two questions. One comment, like you mentioned, architects or engineers. And I wanted to just say that, yeah, I mean, my personal experience is it's money well spent. And it's not really as expensive as you would think it would be. We brought in engineering ventures to look at our carriage house before we over committed to a build out. We want to make sure everything was stable, what we could do. We had some ideas. We want to run it by them. And it was a couple $100. It wasn't that much to have somebody walk through with me and give us some recommendations. So that's a really great first step. And then, of course, I forgot my second point. But I mean, you reiterate the part that this is part of the investment. You're getting professional guidance. You don't want to blow your money on something that's ill advised. If you have moisture problems, you certainly don't want to trap moisture. You want to make sure you have ventilation. And it's these types of professions and disciplines that have the experience and the know-how. You've seen those mistakes. Implagable. They must live with those mistakes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Maybe you wanted to close that vent off in your attic. And they're going to say, oh, no, no, no. You need that circulation. So this doesn't happen. So that is a critical, critical first step. So where do people access this? Can they come down to the permitting and inspections department and pick up a copy? You know, I wish. I'm a paper person. I still miss library card catalogs. But it is available on the city website. In at least two places. But I know under permitting and inspections, there is an electronic copy there. If somebody wants a paper copy, I'm happy to share it with them. If they want to email me, I'm happy to forward the document. It's a little more than two dozen pages. But beautiful, clear images, and a nice section on references at the end. Yeah, yeah, and I'm sure they can get on the BED website, too. I think BED carries it as well. They were partners with us, and they're just as proud of it. I'm sure they're pretty excited about anything that moves in that direction. What you think is an electric company, they wouldn't want that. They'd want everybody to spend too much money on heat and electric, right? Well, there's a great vision here towards electrification. How fast we might get there, I can't foresee. But again, this is just encouragement towards let's take care of your building, let's take care of you, let's make investments that will reduce energy consumption. And that's really the path we all want to be on. Right, the goal, for sure. I mean, you think back to the 20s, they had electric trucks delivering stuff for Macy's and Wannamaker's department stores, right? And they had, you know, and then I remember when I was a kid, a lot of the new houses that were being built had all-electric heat. And then energy things going back and forth, it became expensive, and they got abandoned, and then they added oil tanks. We inherited some of that. Our last home was a gold medallion home. And I don't know if you'd ever heard of this program. No. In the 60s, gold medallion, when energy was super cheap, houses were being built all-electric. Everything, everything electric, all appliances, electric. There were individual electric heaters in every room. And some homes had coils in the walls and in the ceiling for electric heat. Oh, it was, you know, it was marvelous. And then electricity got expensive. We had, actually, our doorbell plate had been erased. I think probably the people had had enough. But another gold medallion home next to us still had the doorbell cover. And it said, gold medallion home for the energy conscious. And my neighbor quipped to me for the energy unconscious because electric heat was so expensive. So even the way we were able to get into the home was nobody wanted a home heated with electricity because it was too expensive. This was in the 80s. So some things are coming back. And I think we're getting smarter about it. Yeah, it's a really big complicated history and conversation about what and why those things occurred. But yeah, I think coming full circle, it's like I kind of joke that eventually when I have solar panels on the roof and a windmill in the backyard and everything's electric, I'm not going to have to worry about insulating my house better because who pairs? We'll just have the retina scan in my eye. It'll be perfect. Well, on the old maps in Burlington, you can see there were windmills in the village of Burlington at that time. Joel, our friend Joel Banner-Baird, who used to work at the Burlington Free Press, had asked me if I'd ever noticed that. And I said, yeah, there were, in fact, wind turbines in historic Burlington. In historic downtown Burlington. We'll bring them back. Yeah, I think we should. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it was a fun project. How long did the whole thing take? So you started talking in 2019. As I said, end of 2019, the conversation began through 2020. We finished the document in spring of 2021, and it was posted online in the fall of 2021. That's pretty good. Yeah, it was a pretty good time. But it was the folks that were on the advisory committee were meeting regularly, providing comments. We were doing edits. Ultimately, we engaged CX associates, Ava Line, and her partner were very, very accommodating to get the final, you know, a lot of it is the tweaking takes a lot of time to get it into a document that's readable, comfortable, legible, pleasant to use. So it was a good project. Yeah, yeah, you had enough really bright people involved that, because that is the hardest part. It is. It's pushing out a document and then looking at it. And then you're like, OK, the next person reads it. And you're making tweaks and tweaks and tweaks. And but it's a fun thing. I hope people will access it and utilize it. Yeah, I mean, Preservation Burlington has posted it and reposted it, you know, the podcast about it and just the fact that it exists. Because it is one of those things where that's, as you know better than anybody, you know, the stumbling block for historic homes is energy efficiency. You know, we've talked about embodying energy for so long and other things you can do. So it's nice to partner with somebody like Burlington Electric Department so that, you know, people sometimes might roll their eyes if you or I say it, because they know we love old buildings, you know. But when the people that are focused on the energy consumption of the city, and you know, it adds some credibility to what we've been saying and thinking and, you know. Sure, sure. Agree, agreed, yeah. That's great, that's cool. So what's the next CLG thing you have coming up? We haven't quite decided yet because of the timing. I mean, I think I know what the project is, but we're going to be looking at rewriting Burlington's preservation plan, which is outdated. The last one was done in 2000, so we're more than two decades past. We want to align it with activities of the Office of City Planning so we can, you know, carry this next ball altogether. So maybe in the fall, we're looking at a grant for that. Oh, that's pretty, that's good news and pretty exciting. I know it's been a long time. It is good news, it's, you know, like everything, it has to fit in with the other projects and the other timelines of other departments. So this will be a pretty big lift. Right, right. So we're going to need help. Coordinating and getting enough people involved in different departments to weigh in. And happily the projects that were identified in the 2000 plan, we call it the daily plan because Pam Daley was our consultant. Nearly everything has been accomplished. A lot of survey work, analysis of the five sisters neighborhood, that was a 2007 project. The neighborhood between that runs from university, terrace, we call it the Prospect Park, north, middle, and south. It pops out there at the south end of the city limits. That was done over three years. We have all of that surveyed. Some looks at North Avenue, the addition got a short look. So we've done a lot of the work that she recommended. In a shorter period of time, we have then the 20 years that has passed, the 23 years passed, we have, I think, four or five surveyed districts. We're hoping to forward them as districts when we get a chance. It's taken so long now, they'll probably have to be resurveyed. Yeah, it's a long process. I mean, we would work with UVM grad students or somebody who would do the surveying or resurveying or examining that. We probably would hire someone. Hire someone. Yeah. I expect the project will take longer than some of the programs at the UVM graduate school. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, if you have them for two years, it's not enough. They can't hand it off. Sobbing, I mean, nothing sits still. Everything changes. So that's just trying to keep up with that. Yep, yep. It doesn't mean they're less important. No, I know. But like you said, finding the time frame and the bandwidth and the room on your desk for a project and, you know. And to time that with a grant application. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No more grant projects for me. Yeah, so you can't leave. You can't leave our review committee. You have been there longer than I've been there. No, I have not. You have. Yep, you were there. You were there when I was hired in 2004. That can't be true. It is. So as Joan Shannon's fault. You still can't leave. She asked me if I would be if I'd help out and beyond that. So can you give me an update on the trades conference? Oh, sure, sure, sure. I had, yeah, you touched. We talked about. Are we good? We covered everything? Yeah, I think we did. I was going to talk about another thing related to that. But we'll start with the trades conference. That was Providence, Rhode Island. Lucky. We all, it was, I've got some funny anecdotes about that because I went down completely unprepared like I normally do. I just drove down and had to find a place. But it was Monday afternoon sort of introductory and then some cocktails and everybody gets to meet. And myself and a bunch of tradespeople and people involved with historic preservation and concerned about the amount of the labor pool. Which is a problem. Which is a problem. And they said, the thing I liked right away was they said, it's not a niche profession of profession. 75% of all buildings are 75 years or older. So most of the American building stock is really old and with specific trade needs. And those trades are aging out and retiring. So how do we encourage and work with students and young people today? And what kind of programs are there for them to learn? There's Bennett Street School. Very expensive. There's two or three around the country that do a great job. But they're not really focused. They're not pumping out students. And it's not gaining enough widespread recognition. So that's what the whole thing was about. So myself and I got this survey, I filled it out and I sent it in and they kept me updated. And they compiled this initial summit to talk about what information they brought together. It's preservation Maryland. It did most of the heavy lifting as far as creating a curriculum, communicating with other trade schools and other things around the country to pull together what would be a curriculum. They worked with the National Park Service as a partner and now they want to take this information, they want to disseminate it and they want to help groups and organizations around the country that are interested in creating a trade school specific to the historic trades. So that's what the gist of it was. Our buddy Judy Hayward was down there. I caught up with her and it was great. When we got back, she sent me a quick email just to thank me. We had introduced each other to some interesting people and she wants to get together again and talk about things that we can do. And wherever that, for Vermont. It's just one of those things that's been on the back of my mind for a really long time. I want to stop working and I want people to keep doing good work. You know, I hear that from you and we have joked about it. Also another colleague, Sally Fishburne, has said to me, she hires people and they don't stay. And she said, I just wish people would want to do this because there's so much work. And she too says, I want competition. I keep getting calls from towns for town hall work and church work and major building work. And she said, I don't have any competition. I need more, we need more people. We need more people in the trades. And something, it's a similar verse I've heard from you. I've heard it from my friends that are mason, stone masons, and historic preservation masons. Again, there's a handful of them, spread real thin. Window people, we all end up getting the same RFPs and stuff and then you go on site and we're all like, do you have enough time? Nope, nope. I don't have time. I'll loan you my scaffolds. Okay, you know what? Yeah, right, exactly. If you do it, I'll give you a chance. Here, I'll give you everything you do it. I'm out, I'm out. So, right, and we've all, so we've had that conversation. I've talked to folks at YouthBuild, talked to folks at Job Corps. Those are specific kids. Whatever their educational needs are and challenges, but I think, I don't care where they're at, as long as we can introduce them to something that's a viable career. And it's a never-ending supply of work. It's good work that people enjoy. I ran into some people down there in Rhode Island who started Window Restoration in Cape Cod as a second career and love it. You just go on about it. It's nice to hear people go on about it because when you've been in the game for a long time, you can get a little bit cynical about things or like, oh, it's never good enough, but people are excited about it. So, that's what the gist of it was. So, we'll see. Follow up talking with Bob McCullough at UVM, about a hands-on component to the program. That'd be great. Yeah, just, we'll say. Like I said, I want to just stay home and read. Somebody said, oh, you'll always have a job, you love woodworking. I'm like, no, I want to sit home, I want to read, drink some wine, listen to stupid records and not do any work. Yeah, yeah, gotcha, gotcha. Mary, thanks for coming on the show. It's my privilege. Again, it's always, I see you, not enough, but plenty. And it's just always fun to have you on the show because, you know, you're like knee-deep in all this great stuff that the city is trying to do. And I was bragging about it on Preservation Oaks podcast that'll be coming out soon. Asking all about Preservation Burlington, our TV show, what we do, and what the city does. And it was great. So, I was talking you up on that. Everybody, thank you for tuning in to CCTV, live at 525 in the Preservation Burlington show. For more information on Burlington history, our tours and events, or to get a marker for your historic house, go to preservationburlington.org. And you can see all the updates on our home's tour, which was a record breaker this year. Thanks everybody.