 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Mr. Chris Georgienus and we're talking about the survival guide for gigging drummers Chris welcome to the podcast Thanks for having me. Yeah, man. All right, so let's before we start maybe kind of tell people about yourself and you know What made you kind of acquire these tips and tricks along the way? And Let's start there and then we'll get into the actual, you know, the survival guide. So so tell us about yourself Cool. Well born and raised in Boston played started playing drums when I was about nine or ten years old Just fell in love with the instrument Took a few lessons here and there but for the most part kind of self-taught. I wished I took more lessons But that's a whole other side story But I just learned by listening playing with friends and starting bands in high school and things like that Ended up actually going to an art school after high school My actually actually high school didn't even offer art or music It was one of those schools that just at the time didn't offer any of it. So Once I finally got out of high school. I went to an art school of all places. So Um I thought maybe a music school about my parents pushed me to do art I'm glad they did at the time. I wasn't sure but it came out with the bfa And this was back before the internet back before social media. So it was really hard to Not only market yourself but even find a job I got lucky a few years out of college, but it was mainly because I was in a band I started an original rock band in boston with a trio and we were gigging a ton all the time And I've been gigging since I was in high school. So and I'm still probably gigging more now than ever and So it's you know, whatever a few decades of of gigging But the big band I had in the 90s It was my guitarist girlfriend who said, uh, hey, I have a friend who's an animator for a show That's being produced in the boston area. That's on comedy central. It's a show called doctor cats And I had just seen previews for it and I said, how on earth is that being done here? Like I didn't think shows the animated shows are being done in boston. So I submitted I had a dust off my portfolio. I Brought it there monday morning. I dropped it off. I said, I'll be back friday to pick it up I didn't even bother trying to get an interview with all going through all of that and um I went back friday to pick it up and the art director Came upstairs showed me where they were producing the show and long story short a month later I got hired to work on a pilot for steven spielberg's new Company at the time because he noticed the show doctor cats So here I am playing in a band working part-time at my father's restaurant. I'm making no money I'm in debt and the first real big boy job that I got was um working on What was dream works the beginning of dream works. We did a pilot for dream works And um, I mean I had other jobs. I was a mechanic for a while Uh at a car dealership and things like that But I was still I wasn't making any money for the most part And then I get this real job. And so I always thought all right I'm going to do art and music and whichever one takes off Is the one I'm going to keep pursuing and they both were kind of just neck and neck all my life. So I've been like constantly Doing both and it's at times. They overlap even during the pandemic. I was doing a lot of remote collaborations with musicians from Boston to Italy and and wherever else even one Musician out in Australia collaborated with us. So cool. It's been a wild ride. It's been a crazy journey But I'm still, you know, doing both full-time during the day animator monday through friday working for, you know, over the years It's been game companies. It's been creative agencies ad agencies now working for a startup in the rare disease health care space doing their visual storytelling So wow just even the art side of things has been crazy amazing and challenging and Music side of things. It's always been, you know, a persistent aspect to my life. I've been in bands all my life. I'm in mostly cover bands now That are busy with playing two three gigs a weekend. So yeah animating by day and and gigging by night So I can't complain life has been fun. Yeah, man. I mean I think they're so like on paper. They're not related animating Drumming but they are really it's the same creative part of your brain and I think like Growing up means you kind of have to make some decisions where you have a stable job But like, I mean you're an animator. That's one of the coolest jobs you could have Well, the interesting thing about um, you know animation or music They do overlap in ways. I never thought So for instance when I was working at the company where that was doing dr Katz the animation director was also a guitarist Andre Lyman is his name and he said to me one day He says musicians usually make really good video editors because they have a good sense of time And so one day I walked in and he put me down behind the an avid media composer Full video editing suite and he says and there was uh, we were editing They were editing together one of the episodes for dr. Katz He says do this whole bar scene just edit it together with the existing animated footage And then he went to lunch and he came back an hour later and watched it and he's like, yep I had a feeling you'd be good at this especially being a drummer with a sense of rhythm He says you have the same sense of rhythm visually. So sometimes they do go hand in hand, which is yeah Even I was kind of surprised. I wasn't sure if he was going to like anything I did and then so that got me hooked on the whole video editing thing as well And just the whole visual storytelling aspect. So you're being creative As an animator visually and then you know sonically as a drummer or a musician of any kind It's in a way, it's they're different but the same it's it's weird but fun. Yeah, I would agree completely All right, chris jumping into the survival guide for gigging drummers, which again, I think is a super cool topic It's just some things where I mean we've all been in that situation playing gigs where like You I don't know either like you're missing like the wing nuts from your symbols and you can't keep it on Or like it's falling off or you forget your throne or you don't have an extra head You don't have an extra snare all kinds of stuff. So take us through the survival guide for gigging drummers All right, so I've seen it all since I've been gigging for so long. I'm a middle aged man I'm I'm gigging more than ever and I I feel blessed and lucky for that but Talking recently with my friend Katie O'Brien who I also gig with she has a great band but we were just going back and forth about Must haves or cool things like one day she said she brought sandwiches for the whole band and that was a huge bonding moment. I thought Not only that but there's a certain way to make sandwiches that survive a long gigging trip, you know so we just started going back and forth and and We both looked at each other like we should start we should somehow document this whether it's we start our own podcasters But we never hear anybody really talk about the ins and outs and that's how this topic kind of was born At least why I presented it to you So i'm glad you took me up on it And also just because I I get a lot of calls Almost weekly if not sometimes even daily from other bands that need a drummer And a lot of it are repeat Bands that I've gigged with and I started thinking like all right. What is it? Why is it me? Why am I the guy that is always getting that call every week? And and I always feel lucky But one of the big things is is when someone does text or email me saying hey, I need a drummer I always respond right away even if I don't know if I can do it yet Because I know that they're not just sending me that I'm not the only person getting that text I'm sure they're doing a whole blanket text to five or ten drummers Um, and they're just because they're probably usually they're in a bind They have a day or two before they need to find a drummer. They're they're stuck A lot of times like most recently a lot of drummers a lot of bands I know their drummer got covet and they have three days and they have two or three gigs that weekend And then they need someone so I always at least respond right away. I'm done checking my calendar right now I'll get back to you as ASAP Yeah, and I always keep my google calendar updated so I can check on the phone if I'm not home in front of a desktop Um, but yeah, that's the first thing is respond quickly. Let them know if you can or you can't and even if you can't I'll even offer to help them find somebody Um, which goes a long way sometimes and I've done that for a couple of bands I've I've located. I know a lot of great drummers and I've I've Connected them with the drummer that they still continue to use this day, which is yeah, which goes a long way, right? It's good. Well, how to pr you only get asked Uh, a couple times and then if if if you are messing it up and not answering or if every single time they ask And you have you keep saying no, you're gonna be off the list Right, exactly. So they won't even bother next time. You won't be one of the first people they think of exactly Um, the next big tip was Kind of I mean it might sound basic, but just even having a reliable car I've seen musicians, you know An hour or two before the gig say all my car broke down or I got a flat tire or I don't have a car or something I need a ride or something like that. It's just if you can't get yourself to a gig Um, that's a huge blemish on you on your record Uh, and the other thing is obviously gotta be a reliable But here's something that happened to me this past saturday night Making sure like everything is working on on your car. I got out of a gig. I had three gigs this weekend two on saturday saturday night We're done with the last gig. I'm loaded up ready to leave. I'm down on Cape Cod I've got you know, whatever an hour and a half drive and one of my headlights is out And I thought oh and I'm particular about making sure everything's working And I even polished my headlights Like a month ago because it's a 13 year old car, right? And the headlights were all dull and and you never know driving home at 2 o'clock in the morning when that deer crosses the road in front of you So having, you know bright visibility You can't help but think about things like that. Yeah, and sure enough Within like five miles I got pulled over and the cop was super nice He saw all the gear in the car. He's like, hey, what you know, what where were you gigging? And uh, he's like, you know, you have a headlight out and I'm like, yep And you know, he was fine verbal warning let me go and the lights was fixed as of yesterday But that's like a one of those little things. Well on that I want to throw out that like It's at gigs in my experience In my younger days, it's very easy to have a bar tab and you know, everyone has different situations But like I mean if there's everyone's got free beer flowing or whatever you're into if you don't drink whatever that's fine But like I would partake in you know, drinking beers at the gig and then if you're driving home Which you should never do very bad. Yeah, but if you have a headlight out It's just a terrible situation to put yourself in You're gonna get pulled over even my guitar is called it. He's like, you're getting pulled over tonight. I said, no, I'll be fine I haven't been pulled over in years and sure enough. He was right within five miles The other thing is bring even if you don't drink We there's a couple guys in the band that don't drink But sometimes if if crowds get rowdy they can spill a drink on you and then you're then you smell like alcohol In getting pulled over and then you know, of course if they do a breathalyzer They're not gonna they're gonna see they're gonna you're gonna prove to them You have nothing in your system, but I always bring an overnight bag even if I'm not staying overnight It's just a change some you don't want to be sitting in a car with sweaty clothes either So having a change of clothes is good My car is a Honda fit and I bought it specifically for gigging because it fits literally everything And then some I always keep a backup high hat stand Underneath the seats a backup pedal that's just all it just lives in the car all these things and I even have Bungie to the ceiling on the inside of the car are extra drum heads So and that stuff is awesome never it never leaves the car and I've never had to use them But I do know for a fact that if whatever reason I get to a gig without any of that stuff That's my high hat pedal and break all my drum heads will happen. Yeah, it's gonna happen Murphy's law there's something like I don't know it's like sometimes you don't want to put the money into buying a paddle or something like that But like even like behind me now I have an aquarium super kick to head in the box that's been sitting there for Two years because I mean I don't break bass drum heads that often and it's like but I just I know I know that it's there and if sometimes we'll play a gig We don't go until 10 o'clock at night and we're out in like well fleet on the cape and there's not There's no one around there's not even cell service And in that one time you break a drum head like especially a kick head Um That's it gigs over You know means it if it's the first song or the third song of the first set even So I actually have an aquarium. I think it's a 10 inch patch too that lives in my cymbal bag Which is always right next to me So if I do break ahead I can at least in between songs see if the patch will work get me through the set And then I'll go out to the car grab a new Batter head and throw that on so I feel like I have that covered Yeah, I've been I've been to clubs where another band is playing. I remember this Clearly because it was a young band and they were great And I think it was like halfway through the night the drummer broke his snare batter head And Because he started playing the tom as a snare and I then I looked over and I noticed it was broken So I was just watching him in between songs and he took his snare and he flipped it upside down and started playing the rezzo head Which you can't play you have not good very delicate not good Yeah, and he had to play the whole night like that because he didn't have extra heads He didn't have a backup snare And I thought oh my god, you have to at least have a backup snare. Yeah You have to be able to no one's gonna sit there and watch you between songs You know the whole band watch you change an entire head out just have a backup bring two snares at least two snares We've all seen the videos of like huge drummers or something like with a drum tech Where like they break a snare and the drum tech like They like hand it off and they change it like like a like a pit crew. I mean, it's like an instant change That feeling and it seems like it it only happens I've done it a few times at gigs where you're playing that feeling of of you hit your bass drum pedal down something's not right punched right through the head And it's just a distinct horrible feeling and I've had that thought I think in my you know in like high school or Something flipped the bass drum head around I don't think the bass drum had had a port on it that I was doing But like play the front hat and it's like and then the front heads you can probably get through a gig for a little bit But then your front head is ruined And you've got like a tama logo on it or whatever and then now you're out 125 dollars and and had so Yeah, I actually had a gig recently where the well something broke on the bass drum pedal But it was a slow process. I could feel getting sloshy um But so I got through the rest of the set and then yeah was just able to run to the car and grab that backup pedal And you know, you don't have to spend it's not you don't have to you don't need a pearl demon drive Whatever pedal to you don't have to spend three four hundred dollars. I bought like a 60 dollar pedal At a secondhand store up the street. It's a solid pedal. It's a great feeling pedal um Or like an old dw 5000 or 3000 just something to get you through Ten songs even or the whatever whatever it takes. I even got to a gig once This is funny right before the gig. I'm loading up my hardware bag and I noticed a little like coupler Right a coupler threaded coupler and I thought like what I maybe that's from just one of those little Boom arm symbol bracket things and yep, I took it out of the bottom of the bag And I just I let I cast it aside Get to the gig setting everything up or in the middle of nowhere This beach comb are out in well fleet, you know And it's it's crazy and it's fun and it's a blast But we have you know a quick setup time quick sound check and doors open and then you're playing for three hours I go to connect the top rod to my hi-hat and it's just not threading I'm like, why is this thing not catching on it? And I realized that coupler belonged Inside the hi-hat to couple the top rod with the but now I have no hi-hat And this was back when I when I didn't have a second. I didn't bring a backup hi-hat stand This is the reason why I still I do it today. Um So I ended up finding a little threaded nut was able to get two or so threads On the nut on it and The the rod two or three threads on that and then I took Gaffer's tape and just made like a golf ball size ball around it and got it to at least work And I just was really gentle about playing the hi-hat that yeah, no, you're not like doing Crazy hi-hat work the entire time. I'm sure that night No, but I do but I do like when I'm say on the ride that my left foot does keep those quarter notes going And sometimes I'm stomping on it but that night I was mental, you know mentally prepared to just Easy on the hi-hat actually played better Instead of just trying to wail on the hi-hat, but I just be I played more relaxed The other thing what happened to same same gig not maybe same venue But a different gig the pedal linkage on the hi-hat broke down where the pedal is Um, and it was just like broken beyond repair. I had now since bought replacements Replacement chain linkage. It's actually a strap drive Um, and I bought two one to fix it and one to keep in my little tool bag that I keep on every gig And but to get through that night I I started like I had to be a MacGyver of sorts and I started thinking I need a way To link this stuff together Um, and I asked the band and the sound guy I'm like does anyone have zip ties and my keyboard is said. Oh, I do out in the van smart And he and he came back with a big thing of like zip ties, you know, like Like they were at least a foot long the kinds where like fbi Yeah, like when they detain people and at first I started thinking like dude, what are you doing with these zip ties in your van? But he's he's it was a little creepy, but he's not like that at all But I'm just so thankful he had him It took like six zip ties to create this linkage that got me through the night now I keep ties in the car. I know You know, I know that that's drum stuff is interesting like that where It's not basic, but it's like it's it's really technologically advanced stuff, but we're not dealing with like So, you know, you're not soldering stuff on the fly you can put it together With like unlimited toy style Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, pretty neat. And I'm sure this is on your your list, but gaff tape gaffers tape Is just an essential for Everything for production life with video and audio for gigging for Around your house. It's not cheap. It's pretty expensive. It's like 20-something bucks a roll, but Right. That is essential Or even um, gorilla tape that's good. It's cheaper. It's actually probably it's a lot stronger. Yep You know, what's really good to have too are those multi-purpose tools specifically for drummers That have all the allen wrenches all those sizes. It has a drum key style tool It has a phillips head flat head Uh, everything you possibly need now. I'm finding like I play a dixon pedal bass drum pedal It has an l-shaped drum key in it with an allen wrench on the other end And then two additional allen wrenches all built into the base of the pedal So you have it always right there, which I thought was like really cool Toma makes a great multi-purpose tool What's great about it is you ever have like tightened a wingnut too tight on your hardware and you can't get it undone It has a little slot on the side of its tool that you put The drum key into and you use that as leverage. Yeah, the other trick is the other trick is to use two drumsticks on either side of the Yeah, it's that type of thing. That's the youtube. Uh, you see the thumbnails of like, you know, people doing it like, uh Stephen Taylor and r. Dave and r and stuff, but I've seen him do it. Exactly. It works. It works really well I love those drum hack things. How do you like that dixon pedal? I've I've I've never played one Yeah, I was in I was in nashville for the first time in may And there's a great drum store called drum supply down there andy foot is the owner or manager of it And I've been buying gear from him for years over the years And I said, hey, I'm gonna be in nashville. I'll stop by and visit Now separate story. There's a great builder and I can't space I'm spacing the name of him as independent drum builder on instagram that I follow and he's had years a couple years ago He built this beautiful kit white marine pearl with custom inlays and da da da So combine these two stories. I'm in nashville. I I finally get over to drum supply I walk in I see andy foot and say hi the place is like it's like mini little disney world for drummers It's just great. He's got stuff. It's eye candy, right? It's like sensory overload You can't even take it all in it. So you have to spend a week there Um, but I look over and set up on the floor is that drum kit the white marine pearl with the custom inlays And I'm like, oh my god, it's a one-off kit. This is amazing. This drug his builder is somewhere else I don't know even no worry. He is but anyway So he's like, yeah, try it out sit down and play it I sat down put my foot on the pedal and I forgot about the drums. I mean immediately That's how good this pedal felt. It's a direct drive dixon pedal And I knew instinctively. I'm like andy. This is going to come home with me this pedal That's how much I loved it because man. It was effortless to play The kick drum softly and just as effortlessly to lean in on it and get Power out of it. It was one of those. It just felt perfect It like it was like one-to-one ratio with my foot and I loved it And I've been playing with it ever since and dixon's great dixon I you know wanted to get like backup parts for it I messaged them on a friday night Through instagram and they responded within minutes. It's like who does that? It was yeah. Well, it goes it goes back to Tip number one respond fast on the survival guide So dixon is doing that I've wanted to do an episode about the company for a while because I mean I think of like greg bisonet playing them and It's they make beautiful drums and great pedals obviously, but I don't know much about them So I'd like to to learn more. So I was in exactly. I was in the same boat. Uh, they're not like You know the top five or six even drum manufacturers you think of you know, so But they're there and they're they're doing great. They actually shipped me um Basically almost like a whole new pedal for free from taiwan. It showed up like a week and a half later Wow Like great customer service. I mean, I'm not even endorsed. It's like Yeah, incredible. Absolutely incredible. Yeah, the other thing I like to keep in my car Speaking while we're on the the topic is actually I keep lubricant in the car Um, like a you know, whatever even just a small like three in one oil or like blaster or something like that because It'll happen if you're gigging a lot of times my hardware bag won't even leave the car because it's too heavy There's no reason Um, but you'll get to a gig and that not so much the pedal squeaking But I've had high hat pedals squeak and not that the audience will ever hear it But it's really nice to know you can just squirt it with some lube and just be done and and take care of it that and even um, monkey wipes I keep you know, like Like simple little things like that when you get grease on your hands if you're do if you're fixing something Like I've had even other Bandmates get their fingers dirty because they were fixing something and they're like, uh, I get grease all over And I hand them one of those and they're like, dude, you have everything. Yeah. Yeah, so those are great to have They're small little packets We've all had it where you're like or like someone who's not you is putting together your throne or whatever And they grab the base of the throne and they're covered then with grease Or someone's wearing a white shirt and then you've ruined their shirt forever or something. But um, yeah, yeah, that's really smart It's just these simple little like um, I will say that these you clearly have a personality type that Like thinks about this. So I think maybe if people out there Don't have that personality type or they're they're not quite like, you know Which I kind of I think I've kind of fallen both categories a little bit Which maybe a lot of people do too where you plan some things other things you don't plan as much But I mean, this is a good list to like it's it's actionable like, okay Respond fast reliable car change of clothes gear in the car. Yeah And also, you know, the biggest fear and it's every gig and no matter how prepared you are Is you'll get a mile from your house and you just start second guessing if you remembered your stick bag Or if you remembered floor ton legs or something like that So I actually have a list on my phone Just whatever the list app or reminder app is Of all the things I desperately need and I use that as a second check I'll even stand outside the car after it's all packed up and I'll go all right The first thing I put down is the rug. There it is. Okay, then the kick got it Then I got the hardware bag for the snare stand snare got the snare Hi-hat symbols good. I can get through a gig with kick and snare and a hi-hat So everything else is easy. I do play or I do play a Roland S pdsx. So I got that I do have xlr cable for that. I have an internal microphone for the kick Which is awesome. One of those Kelly shoe mounts. Yeah Yeah, and have that suspended of a little audex d6 Mike because they're small and lightweight and they sound great And then I have a Michael may xlr port on the side. So and I actually on on a custom kit I do I would never like drill through a nice Ludwig classic maple or something, but But for like a classic maple or something like that I would have just the xlr cable coming out the vent hole on the on the rezzo side head but yeah Because you know, I used to have just a regular mic stand and a mic in front of the kick But the singer would always trip over it spill something on it. It was just getting beat up So yeah, plus you you'll never have to worry about forgetting To bring that stand or bring that mic or bring that xlr cable or whatever What do you so what is your typical setup? Because I mean, I think it's as you gig more you start to like Kick snare for me. It was kick snare tom floor the standard four-piece set Yep, what's what's your standard setup? Obviously you have the roll end, but what do you use? Right my standard is the four-piece setup And then with the the main band that I'm in now the boston naturals I have it because I'm triggering Some I start some songs with a with a backing track sometimes or a one-off sound effects here and there So I need that so I have that set up to the to the left side of my hi-hat coming off that stand I have a like a timbali drum because there's a few songs we do where I need those that kind of sound Yeah, so I have that it's like I think it's a 10 inch But yeah, otherwise it's just that 15 inch hi-hats a couple of crashes I got a great Istanbul 24 inch ride that can use sometimes. It's just that if this like limited space I'll just have that and and a crash But that's really it some every once in a while I'll bring a second floor tom But it's it's very rare if I do that because it's unneeded. I don't really need it Yeah, a lot of stages aren't big enough or even if they are it's just overkill. Yeah Back in the 90s in the original band I used to have three across Two down or one down And lots more symbols, but that was the music kind of called for it We were kind of like a power trio and sure more I could I could accent here and there the different sounds I could get helped But the bands I'm in now mostly cover bands the occasional original band But I find sometimes just kick and snare there's a lot of gigs where I'll play just kick snare And maybe a floor tom Yeah, just more groove groove oriented music Yeah, it's for that it's when you're gigging a lot just to the point too of just hauling gear, you know, I don't have roadies. So Mike Mangello has been hand hammering unique instruments for discerning artists of all styles for years out of a shop in south philadelphia On september 8th. He'll be releasing his first two production model series of cymbals the warm shimmery workhorse series And the smooth dark semi dry avare series will cover the modern gigging drummer in any situation from jazz to rock Join Mike at pocket percussion in willow grove, pennsylvania on september 8th from 11 a.m To 6 p.m for a celebration of the series launch follow along on instagram at manjello symbols or visit manjello symbols dot com starting september 8th 2022 to order that's m o n g i e l l o symbols dot com One thing which may be on your list that i'll just throw out there now a fan a fan for hot days Yes, very important I do bring a fan especially In the summer months. It helps it actually helps For a couple years ago. I was experiencing Dehydration and then cramping in my fingers and even in like my legs and someone said obviously drink water hydrate more stretch more breathe Breathing is important while you're playing. I never thought about it before but sometimes if i'm playing in a song and it's i'm just grooving I'll just say hey, don't forget and I take a lot of deep breaths But the fan helps keep your body temperature down and that can prevent Dehydration as well and the other big thing was I thought at one point at my worst Cramping gig I was playing in boston at big clubs toward the end of the night Both hands started cramping fingers were collapsing inward and then I was cramping in both legs And I was just I felt like I was shriveling up like a ball I had all I could do to keep the beat going and there's like 700 people all dancing And I'm like I you can the big rule is you could never stop once you start playing so I got through it but in between songs i'm literally bending my fingers back out and Uh, I I thought is this a career ending issue? What's wrong with me? I googled it I'm dehydrated but potassium kept on coming up. So I started thinking like when was the last time I had a banana Yeah, and I started eating bananas every day and all of those cramping issues went away It just and not only that I like jump out of bed in the morning I run up the stairs two at a time at the airport like it changed everything So bananas I I make sure I pack like for gigs like food like having a cooler Uh with some ice and pack bananas pack water pack Gatorades power aids whatever in making like a sandwich the one topic me and katie We're talking about was not only having like a sandwich for the ride home Um, the way you make the sandwich. Let's just say it's a peanut butter and jelly Right, don't just put peanut butter on one half and then jelly on the other because then the bread gets soggy because you're not eating it for eight hours So I figured out or someone told me just line both Both sides of the bread with peanut butter and then put the jelly in between so the jelly doesn't make the bread go go soggy And it totally works Right, it totally works. So then it's two in the morning getting your car to drive home and you you have like a really good peanut Butters jelly sandwich that you're psyched to eat Um, it's the same thing with even like a turkey sandwich, dude You put like the lettuce down first and then the mayo your bread doesn't get soggy Interesting a little things like that But like or like cliff bars just little things like that where yes, it just really pays Snickers, I love snicker bars. Yeah, just a quick little also nuts work because the big fear of All right, you you got to the gig. Well, I played a gig up in Maine It was a three and a half four hour drive and I was dry had to drive home that night for another gig down on the cape I the big fear is falling asleep at the wheel, right? Let's face it that could easily happen I always I always found if I had just a bag of salted peanuts of some kind Just to keep me Eating for as long as I can because I feel like I I don't think I've ever fallen asleep mid-chew I don't think that I don't I don't know if it's humanly capable. Is it possible? Maybe I don't know Have you ever fallen asleep with food in your mouth? I don't know if any No, or you wake up like what them What was I eating still half eating food in your mouth? Yeah No, total choking hazard No, that's a good point But these are like I mean it's almost sounds silly, but these are like Things your mom would tell you like take a snack or like, you know, someone's mom And I say this now as a dad of like young kids. It's like I don't leave the house without snacks Like I will not with you. I'm bringing the water bottles. I'm doing all that and it's like because someone's going to be miserable Same thing for adults. Um, yeah, just take care of yourself even some beef jerky or something You know, I love beef jerky, especially being a drummer You've sweated it out for a couple hours and your body's craving salt, right? Plus I'm so I'm always starving after a gig. You just work up an appetite And the worst thing is is like when you pull into that You know 24 hour convenience store somewhere and and it's actually closed That's a new pandemic thing. We're sometimes it's like well, we closed at midnight. It's like, wait a minute You've been open 24 seven for like, you know, 30 years Um, and but that's the worst thing in the world is when you just don't have you're hungry You have nothing to eat and you can't find anything. It's horrible. Yep That's a good one. Um, I will throw out too just I remember playing a gig years ago in college and I think I got a flat tire and it wasn't even like it pop I think it just it had a slow leak Checking your tires and stuff like that kind of goes with your car and you polishing your headlights and stuff Yeah, that's true I have an air compressor where I will go around and check every maybe a couple of months just to make sure I agree yeah, um The other thing too is I find that uh, like let's say a band calls you up and That you know, you got the gig they need a drummer They liked your website or whatever and and they give you the gig There was a band I had never played with before and I've played with them now since many times But the very first gig with them that you know, they said, you know load in this at seven. I'm there at 6 30 Quarter of the latest, right? Get there early. Um So and then always if it's like wait, let's say gps says it's an hour away I always leave an hour and a half Always I love to allow if I can like write a half an hour buffer in case you have a flat tire In case you hit traffic in case anything happens. Um, at least you have a little bit of of wiggle room And when you get there load in and then I offer to help everyone else load in Um, I don't just do my own gear. Uh, and then and then the other big thing is Uh, don't talk don't gossip about other musicians Yes, like you know, I mean, oh, I was on a gig once and this guy was Do and then you maybe find out who knows we all know each other, you know So maybe this band is friends with that band or something like that. That's it doesn't go over well So, uh, let everyone set up We always have fun conversations after the gig But everyone's got a job to do is get set up as quickly as possible to sound check and play Don't be weird is another thing and I don't know how possible it is with some of us But I have learned that if you're just weird And maybe you don't know if you're weird or not Um, if you put off a cool easy go and vibe and you know the you know the music you've learned the material Uh, that goes a long way because the next morning they're gonna wake up and and think like hey that went really well The drummer was great. He was on time. He helped with gear. Uh, he didn't gossip about anybody. He didn't complain about anything Uh, he played the music. He helped us load out. Yeah, he was his headlights were clean. Yeah headlights were clean He had bananas for everybody. No I mean, it's like little things like that You're right. It's just the lasting impression. What's the first thing they're gonna think about the next day when they think about the gig Um, yeah, so that's what I that's what I I try to imagine myself through their perspective of of meeting me Yeah, and you know, I have done so I should say this like I have played hundreds of gigs in my life, but in 20 basically right before the pandemic had a baby Kind of started the podcast right around that time have had another kid. So I have been out of the gigging world for about three Three years ish now, which I can't I'm going to get back to it. Obviously the it's just how the way it's worked out but a lot of experiences I've had uh during that time that was doing some session work where I worked And uh, I used to do photo assisting which there's a lot of parallels to again the creative world where One thing I learned that I think is a parallel in that that photo assisting world Which would be carrying stuff moving lights doing all this stuff was don't like Offer and this this was big with session work with drumming don't offer too many opinions When they're not really they don't really want your opinion or like don't just talk for the sake of talking I feel like yeah, but don't not talk. That's kind of that weird thing of like boy, this guy doesn't talk at all It like that would be creepy, right? If you never said yeah, like you want it you want to be engaged, but I don't know you got to know your Know your place a little bit. Um, it's it's an interesting feel it out I agree like if if they're all going to grab a drink and you you partake whether you drink alcohol or not Just grab a coke or water. Yeah, but yeah, I like the camaraderie of it all. I mean you are a band and um But yeah, I agree. I totally agree with that just Just join in be with them for that whole night. So Yeah, for sure present and just while we're on that I remember again being in that world of that like, you know Production assistant and working in that again not really drumming, but it sort of applies of like um out of sight out of mind once you start being out of their like Their orbit it really was like Uh, you just kind of like well, they stopped calling But it's like you just if you're if you're not there as much It uh, it sort of goes away. So you got to be present and and around and then social media helps with that a lot too So like for the band I'm in now I do a lot of the social media stuff because I love shooting, you know sitting up a gopro somewhere or my Sure or my phone or doing a live, you know instagram video But and I'll always at least bring the gopro if I'm subbing with a band and I'll ask them Hey, do you guys want me to turn on the gopro? I won't just do it. I always ask first That's true. Uh and a lot of time most of the time they're like super excited about the fact that I'm going to capture video And not only will I I'll extra afterwards the next day or whatever Extract the audio from it. Maybe even eq it a little bit sync it back up again create like a cool minute long Social media post for them send it to them like here you go like here's a fun video. So yeah I think that helps and we all connect through social media having a social media presence works because then even if you're not Playing with them every couple of weeks every time you post they'll see it. They'll like it You know, they they still see you gigging. You're still around. You're still doing it Um, that's a good way to keep, you know, that's a good hearts and minds technique. Yeah Yeah, yeah, and I have written down a question to ask you about which you just basically touched on is It's like marketing yourself Like putting yourself out there too because you you said you play with a bunch of bands and and really I guess just having a good online presence And representing, you know putting yourself out there in the best light is important And not always having it be about yourself if at all possible in other words I won't set up a camera where it's just you only see me playing and not the rest of the band I want to try to get the whole band, you know Capture some fun moment or if something happens in the audience Uh, that that might make it more might get more views, you know, we all see drumming videos If that's what you're doing, but I rather would Select a fun moment at during the night where you see the crowd really engage. It's kind of a You know a peak moment in the set and we're all sounding great. That's what I like to capture or at least put out there social media wise Yeah, yeah, totally that's more fun way more fun All right, so let's say you get a call from, you know, a local like cover band who needs you at a gig How do you stay up to date with what songs you need to be? Like learning, how do you how do you keep up to date with what you need to know to be relevant? So sometimes I'll get it won't be three days. Sometimes it'll be three hours Yeah, and a lot of times if that's the case the band is not even Expecting you to be on top of every note, but let's say it is three days or five days or whatever a set list will get sent out And I'll go through it I'll most the time I'll know at least half if not 75 80 of the songs the ones I don't know Actually, what I will do is create Probably like a Spotify playlist even with uh with the name of the band and all of the songs on their set list And I'll listen to the ones of course that I don't know Um, and that's how I'll learn a lot of times sometimes it's just actually on the way to the gig I'll be playing the ones I don't know just to try to familiarize like how do how do they how do the songs start? Is it me that starts them? Those are usually the notes the little notes in the margins that I write like go guitar starts So I don't have to worry about tempo even or anything like that But if it's me starting it or we're all in I got to make sure I got to remember that whatever the tempo is and and then there's always the tempo that the band prefers to That could be different from the original song Um, so sometimes we'll call out a song and I'll say, you know, what tempo do you guys like? And so usually someone will lean in and kind of count it off for me But for the most part that's how to how it starts if there's a break in the middle or what happens after the bridge Usually it's a breakdown or whatever and then how it ends and if it's a song that the original recording fades out well then You know, who knows we're just going to wing it. Yeah, that's a good way. You'll feel it right You'll look at the band someone will cue you you can feel it coming around and then you'll just end a lot of times I'll start if it's a type of riff that has sort of accents. I'll start hinting A few measures before where I feel like it might end as to certain hits And that will actually clue in a lot of good musicians too as to When we end it'll be those same hits that I accented you'll start to understand like they'll yeah I'm almost tele telegraphing it a little bit. But yeah, yeah But yeah learning the songs I've always for some reason been lucky in that sense because I've had the ability to Map my way through songs just by listening to them. I've actually gotten gigs Auditioning for bands that way where one of my first albums I bought was I was 10 10 years old was Born to Run Bruce Springsteen's album and I used to listen to it religiously. I don't think I even had a drum set at the time I practice pad So fast forward, you know I don't know about 15 12 years ago or so I auditioned for a a soul band Like a motown style band And I got to the audition now. I haven't heard Born to Run and I don't know 15 20 years And that was the song they called out and that's one of those songs where If you know it, you know it if you don't it's going to be very clear. Especially those hits after the bridge, you know Exactly those yeah, and uh, and you know, of course I nailed it because for some reason I can't remember some of the names of my neighbors. I've lived on the same street with for 25 years But I remember those hits exactly, right? Yeah. Yeah So I've been lucky in that sense where I can Oh, I've taken gigs where I don't know the set list at all. There isn't one It's just a band a couple of guys that get up every night In play and they need a drummer and it'll be like the theme to happy days and I'm like, well I watched that show religiously as a kid. It's like, yeah, here we go one But there's a lot of stops three o'clock a rock. Yeah, it's a lot of stops So you have to just be able to turn on a dime Always watch always be listening Yes, someone will cue you and they'll know like, hey This drummer is the first time playing with us and a lot of times they'll if something's coming up They'll give you the look like are you here we go? We're gonna break here or whatever. So Their eyes are open super wide As yours should be as well, right? Yeah. Yeah, so Yeah, I had I had a couple thing I had a couple Ones where it would be like what is it? I love rock and roll like jone jet where there's like a Dun dunch and then at one at one point it dun dun dun dun it doubles up and I was just like Oh, I screwed that. Yeah, you're right. I know exactly that part. Yep Or then the the weight by the band, which I love the band but that we play that song And I did one too early and this is over this isn't one gig it was over a bunch of uh, you're right There's one like chorus or section that goes on twice as long you put the load put the load right on. Yeah, and then um, yeah Um, uh, here comes the sun one time at like a little wine bar. I was playing that I'd never I listened to it all the time, but it was like all the breaks the like Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I just totally Was not again. I've listened to the song a thousand times, but that doesn't mean that you Know how to play it. It's still it's still tricky when that part comes around because I've had to play that song also Yeah, and it's sometimes you just try to get lucky and you're sort of flub your way through it But yeah, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, they're usually everything's usually fine But but you remember the bad times You do you do and it's glaring as they may seem on stage no one in the audience ever picks up on it They never do. No one cares. No, no one cares. Yeah. One other thing is just after the gig the next day If it's a brand new band, I always send a follow-up eat text Usually just thanking them for the gig had a great time period. Yeah, that's I think that's you know It's like looking forward to future gigs. That to me is Perfect like no, you just got to do it. He's died. I don't know. It's that's not a cake That is yes bands gigging, but that's sort of like Mature like human Interaction where you have a job interview you should follow up you get a gift You should send a thank-you note. Am I guilty of not sending? Thank you notes and all that stuff Does my wife do it and I don't have any idea. Yes, but is it like here? Is it something you should do? Absolutely any other let things you want to throw out there that that are good to know I would I would say this don't overplay and I would say this to anybody and everybody At any time especially with a new band that's just something with maybe it's one and done who knows but Don't try to impress them By overplaying. It's not a drum solo for you. Just play to the music. It's how I got into the band a minute now Before when they had their previous drummer who he'd see me at a show and he'd call me up to sit in every time I play three or four songs and I just played the songs And I think after the first time I sat in with them the bassist came up to me and said you and I are gonna share many stages together because he was looking for a drummer and I He's a real the real deal in terms of bassists. He's toured the world and elsewhere. So Yeah, and I've been playing with them ever since but that was probably one of the biggest lessons because I see it all The time you see someone get called up to play whether it's guitar Drums whatever it is or singing and they just tried to show off and do a giant solo Thinking I'm gonna impress all my friends who were here and the band itself and it just never goes over well Yeah, the guys who are the girls who just play the bare minimum and play to the music They'll win every time. Yeah, that's the biggest one that kind of seems to go along with like I feel like there's some certain like Like you said bare minimum like like being able to being a drummer being able to play Playing to a metronome having practiced in the background at home You know having good timing sort of like a Like it's a it's assumed that you can do that, you know, right now What do you do if you totally flub up a gig? You just it did not go well Everything's been screwed up. You're not gonna get the gig again. You've just it was a bad I mean everyone's had that at some situation where something's happened. How do you recover from something like that? I don't know if you can Just move on Just I you might just have to move on if it was that bad. I'm trying to think like what could cause that I mean, I other probably that just not knowing any of the songs Especially if you've had a week or two or more to learn them and just Blowing it tempo wise volume wise. That's another thing. Yeah, don't just start bashing really loudly learn how to play quietly I often practice as if there's a baby sleeping next to me like I that's a really hard thing to do Yeah, I was at a gig with the the Motown band. They have a horn section We had a play somewhere where they kept on complaining about the volume keep it down And I remember how difficult it was to play quietly and I remember the horn section during break They were like stripping with sweat because for them they I didn't even realize this They said it's ten times harder for us to play quiet. It's more effort. Wow. You know, you try to blow You have to blow a certain amount, but then you have to hold it back at the same time and choke it That ability is good, but if you really blow the gig though getting back to your actual question I think you actually just apologize. I don't know if you'd ever recover from it I don't think it's recoverable If you were given the chance if it was one of those situations where they called you an hour or two Like we're really in a jam. Just show up and you didn't know the material I think it would they'd be more understanding And probably ultimately appreciative that you even attempted a lot of drama. No, if I don't know the material I don't even want to risk embarrassing myself But yeah, I was at a gig once where another drummer was playing at a band and he was ten times louder than the band And it was everyone in the audience was just Mortified we were all just and I never forget it. He was after the gig. He was breaking down I know that band never called him again. His the speeder shaft on his kick pedal was bent Severe that's how hard he hit. I mean, I've seen beatershaft snap in two. I've never seen them bend And it was in a tough room with bad acoustics. It was painful It's like a lack of awareness almost like I guess sometimes being aware of the situation will help you recover mid Failure of like what's going on to kind of course correct and get your heart You don't have the ability. It's I don't know how anyone would teach it You just have to be you just have to write being aware being present listening to what? Where you are in the mix volumize especially if you aren't might you don't have an engineer Yeah, you just got to be present you really do and just got to try your best and if you screw up I mean, we all screw up I don't think there's ever been a gig where someone didn't hit a wrong note or miss a change or something like that That's that stuff just happens and I used to have the biggest fear of dropping a stick That used to be my biggest fear and now I've gotten to that point where I actually don't mind it I don't fear it at all because it's more about the recovery Yes, and it's how you recover and then you eventually at the more you play the the better you get at having your stick bag Right next to you hanging off your floor Tom. That's a must-have although. I made a mistake last month at a gig We had a setup real quick. We had two or three gigs that day and This I think it was the first or second song. I'm like I can feel the stick breaking You know when it gets all like vibration in your hand and I just tossed it to grab another stick And I hadn't put my drum bag on my floor Tom yet The drum bag was like way off to the side and I realized I got one stick now And I still get to get through half a song and I need both so I literally had to almost completely stop playing to Come off the throne and grab the stick that I threw and play with a broken stick But yeah that that was that was even you know after all these years and all these gigs like something like that can happen But it's the band I play with regularly and they barely even cared No, no people but yeah, you care about things more than anyone else Like you said with the gig and you go God was terrible and your girlfriend or boyfriend or whatever. It's like yeah It was good. It's fine. Like people are talking Like no one yeah that Invested I mean people do listen closely, but you know what? I mean you you're your biggest self You know exactly yeah little details, but yeah, I don't I don't think if you really screwed up I you just have to cut your losses I do want to say too though. It's like as we wrap up here. You do a lot of work with like Adobe I mean outside of the drum stuff, which we've just had an awesome conversation about it's pretty cool What you do man? You've got a really neat background So so real quick because I know probably a lot of people who listen use Adobe products and all this stuff What do you do with Adobe? So I'm a member of what's called the ACP program or community professionals program So what that means is I'm always on their community forums helping out I've also been on the so I've been using Animate their animation program flagship animation program, which we used to be flash back in the day So I've been using this program for a lot because back when we were doing TV shows We were using in a DOS based program called animator pro by Autodesk and then it was you know All of a sudden Windows 95 and DOS was going away and Autodesk wasn't supporting their program anymore 2d animation program And I was tasked with finding new animation software and I just found flash flash 4 came out the internet was exploding with all this crazy content and I was just right there on the front lines of it all and Wasn't even using it for the web didn't even know about the website of things and Saw how people were using it. We even got a Deal with website at the time. I might even still be around called shockwave which had all these flash games and stuff Right. Oh, yeah, all of a sudden, you know, we were animating for TV and playing games on shockwave During breaks or whatever or when we should have been working and then someone came in and said Hey, we got to deal with shockwave to do a whole animated series and the task was create a two-minute episode It's a two-minute episode with audio animation Everything with a preloader because back in the day was like what 56.6 K and 28.8 K modems and whatever We all had to be self-contained in this one file couldn't be any bigger than a megabyte It had a preloader and a game during the preloader and they said to looked at me and said figure it out And you have two weeks to do the first episode. So it's like, oh my god. So anyway long story short That's how I got introduced to the whole world of of adult. Well at the time it was macro media that owned Flash but they got bought by adobe. So that's how I got it more into the whole adobe world We were already using programs like photoshop in conjunction with flash and Like I said, we had avid media composers and stuff But when I went out and branched out on my own it was more through programs like premiere pro and Trying to think what else so for now like yeah I'm just being still involved with adobe. I work with the engineering team I've been on their pre-release for as long as I can remember but I'm friends with the engineering team out in India and a lot of times they'll ask me for Sample files that actually ship with the program So like you install animate now and you just hit the start screen along the bottom or a bunch of thumbnails You can double-click and they open up actual source files of animations. It's me and my friend Joseph LeBrock He's authored a lot of them as well. Wow. Yeah, and so then I get invited to speak at adobe max conferences I've been you know, almost all over the world speaking at flash-based conferences Whether it's like Amsterdam or San Francisco or just a whole again a whole layer to the onion. That is my career Yeah, I'll be going up back to the first post pandemic in person max which is out in LA in October and finally getting to do a session again, but Just amazing Experiences like you get up and I never think like I'm doing anything special for the most part I'm animating silly little characters or animals or whatever and then all of a sudden I'm flown across to you know The UK Brighton Beach UK because there's a conference there And they want me to speak for an hour and like show them how I made a monkey, you know trapeze across the screen I'm like really yeah, that's just Seriously you're gonna pay for my flight hotel bring me over. So yeah in this This October I'm going out to LA just talk for one hour and I'll be there all week and well I'm actually gonna be a gang Helping teach a couple other labs, but for the most part my only requirement is to speak for an hour and show them how to take An illustration done in a different program, whether it's a iPad Program or a Photoshop or illustrator and bring it into animate and apply like the cool rigging bone tool and then start Creating armatures and bringing it to life and it's not like advanced Frame by frame purist, you know animation type stuff that not a lot of people do this is more kind of like Animation for the for everyone and anybody who's never even dabbled in animation before because that was my story I never animated before it ever took a course And so when I was hired to work on those shows early on in my career They hired me just because I could draw and I had a sense of timing We found out because I could video edit but it was really about just composing Shots and stories over time shot-for-shot and just having that sensibility So my wife hates watching movies with me because I always point out inconsistencies because they're so glaring to me But I like remind it you missed it. She heard watchers on the other wrist, you know, like stuff like that But yeah, or I do that where I'm like that was ADR like there's no way that was that was actually recorded live Like that's not how that sounds. Yeah, that you hear it overdub. It's yeah, I totally get it It's completely. It's clear. Yeah, I mean what all of this is just I love Adobe stuff I've given Adobe a lot of money over the years after once it switched to subscription after CS6 But I'm I'm happy to be updated and all that stuff But I think the takeaway from this kind of end of the conversation is like you can do multiple creative things You know what I mean? You can be a drummer and really focus on that But also do this kind of other stuff or if that's not really a possible for you You can be a drummer and you can also like work at an office. You can do two things, you know It's definitely possible. I mean it gets busy, but yeah, but it's good And I love when the world's collide in the sense where I did a Collaboration during the pandemic with a whole bunch of musicians and then it did all the video editing the mixing all that But then I did a layer of animation over it to just because I can Yeah, you know little things like we're not rotoscoping so much But this like hand-drawn animations to complement the videos that were taking place under it So yeah, I don't know sure if I can do it I will I think if I come up with an idea if it hits me then I almost have to act upon it and Execute it. Yeah. Yeah, I feel lucky that I get to do both. That's awesome man Well, um Chris has been kind enough to stick around and do a little bonus episode today. He came up with a really cool idea We're gonna talk about things that have happened on gigs with him that are Like you could never plan Like things that come out of nowhere that are a total surprise Because that's how the world works not everything is oh, I broke my bass drum pedal I have an extra bass drum pedal clip it on and I'm good to go. So there's a lot of surprises out there So if you want to hear that go to drumhistorypodcast.com There's a patreon link click it two bucks a month and up and you can now get your name for 10 bucks 15 bucks At the end of the YouTube videos, which is a cool way to kind of everyone who's done it so far has done it to promote a shop or A drum or John like John de Christopher promotes his podcast So cool kind of cheap way to promote what you got going on. Um, but anyway Chris this has been awesome, man Personally, I think this is really cool because I grew up loving the show home movies And now to just find out five minutes before we record That you worked on you were art director for home movies and you had listened to my show. It's like whoa Pretty wild man, you never know what's gonna happen I love that. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for being here. Um, well before we leave Is there anywhere that people can find you you want to direct them to your social media website anything like that? Thank you. Sure. Uh, if you search Boston drummer on instagram You'll find me. Um, my animation site is keyframer.com and that's probably plenty, but yeah, thank you Sure. Cool. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. Chris. This is really cool Thank you for having me. This was fun