 Hello, everyone! I am here with an absolutely fascinating guest. Someone who I think a lot of you probably would have never suspected would come on the Humanist Report a couple of years ago, but now I am here with newlywoke Peter Dow, author of Digital Civil War, Confronting the Far Right Menace. Peter, thank you so much for coming on the program. Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, and for everyone who missed the tweet, we actually, this isn't the first time me and Peter talked. We spoke about a year ago, I want to say, and what I noticed, and really what surprised me was that, like, we had more in common than previously thought, and what I think that we realize, you know, I can't speak for you, Peter, is that I think we kind of developed this mutual understanding and mutual respect and acknowledgement that we have a common enemy, we have common policy goals, and even though we have disagreements with each other, deeply rooted disagreements, I still think it's important that we kind of talk and have this conversation. I completely agree, you know, you and I, in the very beginning of the phase where I decided to move past 2016, start reaching out, you were actually one of the first people who was willing to do that. We had a good dialogue through Twitter. And you know what, I went to your website and I looked at your issue positions, which are probably the most detailed of anybody I've ever seen online, I mean, which is wonderful. And I was just going down the list and thinking, boy, this guy, Mike, really, I think I agree with him on 95% of this stuff. And that was sort of, it was really nice to see and I appreciate how willing you've been to get this dialogue going. And of course, over the past six months, nine months, since you and I started talking, it's developed further and I've continued to, you know, reach out, unblock people, try to connect, and just try to put the mess of 2016 behind us, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that if you and I were to have a conversation about 2016, we'd butt heads, there'd be fireworks there. But I am kind of on the same page where I don't want to think about 2016. Like that is such a toxic year for a lot of us that I think the only way we possibly can defeat Republicans is if we try to move forward. And there's still going to be these deep rooted disagreements that we have, and that, you know, the Bernie wing and the Hillary wings have. But if there's some way we can put that aside and try to talk about, you know, how we're alike rather than how we're different, I do think that that can be really fruitful. Now, I do want to talk about your book because I'm grateful that you actually offered to come on my show first when you're doing your press tour. That is greatly appreciated. It's kind of, you know, in the way that you've been trying to extend an olive branch. Now, from what I understand, you've quoted progressives like Kyle Kulinski in the book. Rumor has it I maybe in the book is well quoted. So can you talk about this book because what you do is you basically you go into detail with this really thorough analysis about how the Republican Party has essentially weaponized social media and they use this to catapult themselves to political power. Can you talk about this? Yes, absolutely. Can I get back to one thing, Mike, that you mentioned that I think is important before we move to that? Absolutely. When you said let's set aside our differences from 2016. I love how you said that, right? Because I agree with you. We're not in a position to tell people who suffer like pain and harassment and trolling, you know, hey, just forget about it and move on, right? And so set aside or hit the pause button is a type of language I'm using. All I'm asking is let's get focused for the battle ahead in 2020. But I'm not dismissing or minimizing or I don't think you are either on both sides, whatever grievances there were and pain and deep frustration, right? So I just wanted to sort of reaffirm what you said about how to approach this, not to dismiss what people felt. Absolutely. You see what I'm saying? No, and I'll say to kind of, you know, piggyback off of that, like there are still people who I know who were Clinton supporters and me being a brother of the Bernard, you know, was then and still am. It's like I haven't had conversations with them about this, you know, and one day maybe this will happen, maybe one day you and I can hash this out in a way. But for now, I don't think it's important to relitigate 2016 just because those feelings are still there. So I think that that's good that you made that clarification because it's not a matter of dismissing it. Like again, you and I have extreme disagreements when it comes to this intraparty warfare. But for now, I do think that building bridges is important because we have to expand the coalition. We have to somehow try to move past that because if Bernie is the nominee, then I want Hillary Clinton's 2016 supporters to vote for him. And I'm sure the same is true for you if somebody, you know, from the establishment wing wins. So I think that not minimizing people's feelings is a really important thing to emphasize. So I'm glad that you kind of added that caveat. Okay, great. So we're on the same page. And frankly, I think we would probably agree on a lot more about 2016. But let me get so to get to the book, right? I've been in politics for 20 years now and I've never written a book. I've always wanted to write and people have kept saying because I've done, you know, thousands of blog posts and tweets and I've been writing since 2000. But I finally thought, you know what, I need to write down in a book form, what is going on with the deeper moral arguments at the root of all these fights we have online. And digital civil war was really me just echoing my childhood where I grew up in an actual civil war in Beirut. And I thought, you know what, I see I know what it's like when people are battling. And what's really interesting about a real civil war is not everybody's fighting, right? There are people just going about their lives in areas that don't have conflict, you know, going to movies and doing their thing. But then on the battlefields, you have this intense fight. So like you and me are part of politics on a daily basis, right? It's what we do. But there are a lot of people who think, oh, you know, this is overblown. There's really not really a war happening. You're exaggerating. But my attitude is, look, the stuff that's going on online is radicalizing the far right. People who are shooting up schools, churches, mosques, whatever, they're getting radicalized in this digital battlefield, right? Also, these huge fights that we have about the immigration border policy, for example, universal health care, they affect people's lives. So when I say digital civil war, it was in contrast to people say, soft civil war or cold civil war. That's way too anodyne for me. There's nothing cold about kids sitting in cages, you know, there's nothing cold about people not having health care and losing their health care. So for me, it's like there's a battlefield. And some of us are on this battlefield and fighting these really essential fights about our country and what it represents. So that's really the essence of the book. And I dig into the moral questions. Inequality, for example. You talk about, you know, quoting you, quoting others, even the chaplain guys, for example, right? So I'm essentially trying to say, look, there's this whole discussion of inequality that really I got to give credit to Bernie Sanders for raising that. This is something that's been dear to me for many years. That's why I was a fan of Bernie before 2016 went down. And we all started fighting, right? But it's a crucially important issue. I live in New York where I see $50 million condos being bought and sold by these hedge fund guys who don't even live in them. And then I'm looking at other places in the country where kids can't afford school supplies. That's a deep injustice, right? So that's really, for me, the essence of the book is to dig through all these issues one by one and show how the battles play out. Yeah. And I think that that's really interesting. You've touched on a lot there. And one thing that I got to say that really helped increase the respect that I had for you was really this recognition that things that we need to do to get to where we want to be politically are no longer taboo. Like, for example, I know a lot of people who kind of come from the wing of the party that you were previously part of try to make it seem as if, you know, you can't criticize Democrats because the Republican Party is such an existential threat and they are. But at the same time, I like that you've started to really take a more direct approach in realizing that we have to acknowledge that there are some people on our side, Democratic Party leadership, you speak out about them quite frequently, that if we want to be where we need to be, we have to call them out as well. And we have to hold them accountable. So one thing that I really wanted to ask you about was you recently kind of had this political awakening over the course of a couple of years. And what I noticed now is that you're taking a lot of heat from Hillary Clinton supporters who were previously on your side saying, Peter, you know, I don't know why you're doing this, you're only doing this to promote a book. And then I see Bernie supporters say the same thing. So you're kind of catching heat from both sides. And so basically, what I want to ask you is, what do you say to people who are skeptical? What do you say to people who think that, you know, this new Peter Dow, this, you know, newly woke Peter is just doing this for publicity or whatever? What do you say to those people? Because there's a lot of skepticism in politics. And I think for good reason. So how do we convince those people that you really are the real deal and, you know, what you're saying you mean? Well, there's a very simple answer to it. I ask people to just use Google and go back to who I was in 2001, 2003 and four. Look, I joined politics after being a house music producer in 2000. And I joined 2001, Democratic Underground, which at the time was really the only message board for us disaffected Democrats and progressives who were trying to fight the right and there's nowhere to go. So the early days are like chat rooms, message boards online. And then at the beginning of blogs, right, 2002, 2003. So I entered politics as an anti Iraq war activist, as a progressive activist, environmental activist, human rights. This was my life because I grew up in a war. And for me, it was like, I was just fighting these human rights battles that I cared about. So if people go back and look at my history, the record is out there. I think one of the problems Mike is that so many people just got introduced to me in 2016. It's like this guy's some DNC shill. But I tell people the story of my life for 15 years before that election. I was the progressive net roots guy, right, the blog guy, who people like Kerry and Hillary, and even our own specter, when he became a Democrat, it's like, we need you to connect us to the blogosphere, right? That was back in the blog days before social media. And if you look at my writings, if you even go back to when I was, you know, I started up with Chankyuger with Glenn Greenwald with Dave Serota. That was the community that I first began my career with, right? Those guys were buddies, like Glenn and I used to hang out. Chank and I used to hang out like way back 2001, 2002. That's interesting. Yeah, I've been in this game a long time. Like this is the thing, but I can't fault people who saw me in 2016 and got the wrong impression of who I am. I totally get it, right? Because I was defending Hillary Clinton, you know, like I was in the trenches with her and I was fighting back hard. And I look, I overdid it. Many of us overdid it. We got caught up in a battle where we got really defensive and thus really aggressive. And I started being seen as a guy who was going after progressives, which was quite painful to me because that is my community. So this is less an awakening for me and more like a coming home. Like I consider myself a progressive activist who thought I'm going to get inside the system, inside the belly of the Washington beast and try to change it from within. But you know what happens is you can't really change it from within. And now I'm starting to see that, you know what, I got to get back on the outside of this thing right now. And I got to start going after the structure from the outside, right? Going after this establishment status quo structure from the outside. So I only asked people to look back at the sweep of my whole career and look at me in 2008, for example, when Obama was elected. There were only three or four people in my position, like somebody who had been in the Democratic Party, who was going after him on drones, on civil liberties. I basically accused them of continuing Bush's policies by making them worse. The Owliki case, extrajudicial killings, right? Assassinating Americans with no due process. That was on Obama. And I called him out on it, right? I called him out for being to sort of not, not aggressive enough on, on healthcare, you know, when Obamacare was first pushed. So I only asked people go back and look at who I was for all those years. And yes, I got in the middle of a battle in 2016 where I thought, I want to elect Hillary. I'm going to do everything I can to do it. And I think it's the right thing to do. And people may disagree. But here I am today saying, you know what? I got to reconnect with my friends, reconnect with my roots and get back to the guy on the outside, you know, going after the system. Because the system is broken. Like, you know it, right? I mean, things are so much worse off now than when I started 20 years ago. That makes me look at myself and say, what have I screwed up? What have I done wrong? Right? Because back then, the people like, you know, Trump and Bolton, these guys were like fringe, you know, Steven Miller, these were fringe people, even at sites like Free Republic. And now they're running the country and Fox is in the White House. So whatever I did, I wasn't very successful. And I have to ask my friends and all of us as activists, there's something wrong. And we got to, we got to, you know, really look at ourselves and then get to work. And I want to quote someone from Twitter, I believe it is pretty bad lefty who said, Peter Dow is basically the only person who learned anything from 2016 because you are willing to be introspective. And I think that that's important. Now, basically, I think that the reason why these types of discussions and conversations in general are important is because even if we don't always agree, understanding is important. So let me pose this question to you because I honestly was only introduced to you in 2016. So my initial, you know, introduction to Peter Dow was, oh, this is just a Hillary Clinton show, you know, it was, it was obviously I had that caricature of you built up in my mind, and I didn't really know you. So let me ask you this, as someone who is progressive, who has this history of criticizing Obama, which I absolutely agree with you with, what is it that made you, for lack of a better word, abandon that core progressive ideology and go for Clinton instead of Bernie Sanders? Because this is the way that I see it. If someone is super progressive and ideologically speaking, you finally have a candidate who really is talking about social democracy and universal redistributive programs, what made you kind of lean more towards Hillary Clinton as opposed to Bernie Sanders? And I also want to follow that up by asking what was it that kind of catalyzed this introspective view that you had thinking maybe I wasn't going about this the right way in terms of talking to people? Okay, those are two excellent questions. So let me take them one at a time. The first one with Hillary was a combination of personal, in other words, I got to know her in 2008. Now she hired me, there was a New York Times article when I got hired that sort of sort of confirms what I'm telling you. Basically, the article said, Hillary Clinton hires Peter Dow to reach out to bloggers in the progressive community, that's why she brought me on board. And I said, okay, I'll do it. Now a lot of my friends said, what on earth are you doing working for Hillary Clinton, if you're this progressive guy? And my answer was, look, I want to build bridges between my community, which was the net roots at the time, that's what it was called then, and the Democratic Party leadership. And of course, Hillary represented the pinnacle of that having been in the White House, the First Lady, Senator, etc. So I sat down with Hillary, I got to know her, and I started at that point feeling that certain priorities of what were important to me primarily, primarily women's rights and women's equality and the issue of a woman never having been elected president. So I had differences with her on policy issues, whether it was Iraq, of course, because I was an anti-war protester. So with Hillary, so I worked for 2008, 9, 10, you know, during those years and over those years getting to know her personally, of course, when you know someone in person is very different from the caricature, as you said, that you had of me and that others had of her. And so during that period, because in 2016, I didn't officially work for her, I was just doing it because I was continuing the mission I had in 2008. Now to me, women's rights and the oppression of women across the globe is a, you know, I grew up in the Middle East. So you know how women are treated in the Middle East? It was a sort of primary issue to me as Jimmy Carter said, President Jimmy Carter, you know, is one of the great travesties of humankind, the oppression of women and girls across the globe. Okay. And so for me on a personal level with my family, you know, I felt, okay, getting a woman in the White House and one who is certainly immensely qualified who I agree with on a number of issues, maybe not the entire sort of like her philosophy of the country, but certainly a woman who I would be comfortable in the White House. So it became a fight for me, Mike. It's like, I'm going to lecture, I'm going to fight the right. And a lot of it was like fighting the right because the right wing takedown of Hillary Clinton is exactly what they're doing to AOC and Ilhan Omar now. So it was this, okay, I don't want this right wing system to beat me. It became really personal for me. So in 2016, it's like, I'm going to pick up where I left off in 2008. I'm just on the outside of the campaign. I don't work for, I'm not paid by her. But I didn't. And in 2015, I was praising Bernie Sanders. I mean, again, Google will help people who are skeptical. I was writing stuff like, yay, wow, we got Bernie Sanders talking about inequality. And we have Hillary who could be the first woman president bringing all these issues so important to girls, you know, as a role model. And then 2016, he started talking about the Wall Street speeches and some of those issues. And like I said, when you support somebody that strongly, you start fighting back, and it just went off the rails. And I, and, you know, I apologize for people that I hurt in that process. You know, my wife and I took, as you know, a tremendous amount of heat as well. Death threats. You know, it was a year in which, and I've written about this, you know, we lost our first baby together to an ectopic pregnancy. She had emergency surgeries. So in the middle of 2016, my wife is on an operating table like two months out of the election, could have lost her life. So it was one of those years that I never, ever want to relive again. That's one of the reasons to answer your second question is like, what made me start rethinking? But look, you know, the fight for Hillary, once I'm in the trenches with somebody I was, you know, I was trained, you know, I was drafted into the military at 15 years old. I lived through awards. Like once you're in the trenches, you fight, right? You don't abandon that person. And but the end result of that was like people now started seeing is this DNC shill. I'm thinking, Oh my God, you know, then so, so anyway, so that's what happened 2016. I did not agree with Hillary on everything. I certainly don't. I've been critical of her on issues. I don't agree with Bernie Sanders on everything. But frankly, probably had Hillary not been running, I would have been a Bernie Sanders supporter. No doubt about that, because people like Wellstone and Sanders were the people who I looked up to and admired in the years before that election. Sure. And, and that's really interesting because again, like we won't agree on the reasoning, but I do want to understand. Like I recently had a conversation on Twitter with someone who supported Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, but didn't support Bernie. And to me, I don't, I don't understand it because ideologically speaking, they're very similar. Maybe AOC is slightly to the left of Bernie, but I think that just understanding will help progressives. And I'm sure you would agree, kind of reach out outside of the echo chamber, outside of our bubble to kind of bring people in. So here's what I want to post to you because I don't want there to be just like one person who does what Peter Dow does and kind of tries to extend this olive branch. I want more Peter Dows. If I can use your name as kind of like an example. So what could I have told you back in 2016? Let's imagine you and I butting heads on Twitter. What could I have told you that would have made you less skeptical about me as someone who is largely viewed as a Bernie bro? What could I have told you to convince you that I'm coming from this position, not, you know, in bad faith, but in good faith? What do you think somebody like me could have said to you if anything that would have convinced you back then? You know, you're, you're a really straight shooting guy clearly and you're being honest. So I'm going to, you know, I'm going to, I like to do that too. That's the person I am. So I'm just going to respond honestly. I don't know if there was anything you could have said because at the point you start seeing other people as I don't want to say enemy, but as like a bitter rival, right? I don't know that I was really listening that carefully. I was angry and a lot of people were angry on both sides, right? And I, and I tell people this, you know, I've been talking to people over the past week as part of, as part of the book release. And what I've said is, look, you know, sometimes the closest people, people you're in a relationship with, you know, your close family or parents are the most bitter fights when you fight. And they can be explosive to the point of violence. Most violence is domestic violence that we see when these sort of close family fights that really, I don't know, like, so there's a way that love turns to hate. And in when people are close because they care about the other person's opinion, right? I cared that the progressive community saw me that way. It hurt me and it, but I take responsibility for what I did to get to that point. So I think the answer to your question is a tough one. Now, how do we get people to do it? It's exactly what we're doing. Just you and me talking, seeing that we're human beings, we're coming from a principled place. There were a segment of people you and I know who just wanted to make trouble, who wanted to attack and harass. I'm not going to forgive or ask other people, hey, you got harassed and trolled and subjected to these horrible things. Hey, you just have to forget it. So it's more like we're here now. It's 2019 going to 2020. So what I would recommend to you to do, and to others, what I would recommend to others is look inside yourself, ask yourself, what are your priorities? We are facing fascism, like you know it and I know it, right? You know, there's one thing, you and I could have ideological differences about capitalism, about socialism, about political theory and social theory and economic theory. But that's more really academic in some instances. What we're facing is like an existential threat right now to the rule of law and democracy or anything that's left of it. I realize, and I know you know this, that some people may say it's just the way the capitalist system is set up. But I'm just not really a political scientist or really an expert on those issues. I was a house musician, you know what I'm saying? I was a jazz keyboardist who got into activism. I don't know enough about economic and political theory to make these sort of macro, you know, sort of analysis of what's the better system. All I know is I'm seeing children being shot in school rooms, in their classrooms, I'm seeing migrant children being stolen from their parents. That is an atrocity. I mean, there is no greater torture. Those of us who are parents understand no greater torture than taking your child away and you don't know where they are and you may never see them again. You might as well kill somebody rather than do that to them. And yet our government is doing that in our name. We are droning babies in other countries from missiles that come out of the sky and blow up toddlers, okay? All these things are happening. So me, I'm just like a very direct action type of activist. Like, I don't know the theory well enough, but I see these injustices. I'm just going to speak out about them. And I ask others to focus on that. Like, what do you want for 2020? Do you want to sit there and fight over whether, you know, the DNC rigged it or not for the next three years? You're never going to win that battle. One person will say it was rigged. One person will say it's not and you're never going to get to a conclusion. And you and I have very strong feelings about this. Yeah, exactly. But I've learned to sort of set those feelings. I just focus on these injustices. You know, there is so much injustice around us that I just can't look backwards. I just took that rear view mirror and I smashed it. That's for me. For others to do what they want to do, but that's, that's my approach. Well, let me ask you this because I know that you coming on this show, you're going to take heat from Hillary Clinton supporters. And I'm assuming I'll take some heat from Bernie supporters because it is kind of difficult to kind of let your guard down and listen to someone. If you've been on the opposite sides for so long, if you've been butting heads, you know, so I saw a Twitter or a Reddit thread that referred to me as the quintessential Bernie, bro. So let me ask you if you have any questions for me because I kind of picked your brain and I want to kind of flip it and see if you want to ask the quintessential Bernie, bro, any questions because, you know, for me, let me just explain my position. It's never been about Bernie for me, like even if I'm a supporter of Bernie Sanders for me, it's always been that Bernie is a conduit to the ideal, you know, not necessarily 100% perfect society, but a way in which we can achieve these goals. So if somebody else comes along and is better than Bernie, I jump ship immediately if I feel as if they can win. So that's basically what it's been about to me. So did you want to pick my brain in that way? Yeah, I do. Actually, you actually just sort of sent me started answering the question that I was going to ask you because part of my growth here over the past year is to start seeing that I want to be my own leader. I don't want to be defending or following one, you know, another politician. Yeah, I'll vote for them. Yeah, I'll, you know, I'll criticize them or I'll support them. But what is your feeling because you do your thing, right? You got the show, you've set this all up. This is, you know, you're an entrepreneur and you get your positions across. You've built a strong audience. How do you feel about the notion of us becoming our own leaders? No matter what it is we do, whether it's podcasting or whether it's blogging or tweeting or organizing or canvassing versus focusing all our energy on one politician. Yeah, yeah, that's a fascinating question. And basically part of the reason I started this podcast is because I wanted people who were usually politically apathetic to get involved and realize that they can't just wait once every four years for presidential election to take action. Like politics is always happening. Politics is embedded in everything and it influences every single aspect of our lives. So basically one of the main reasons why I started the show was I wanted to empower people to take action into their own hands and realize that this is their government. Like they own the US government. You are the boss of every single politician because you're paying their paychecks. Your tax dollars fund them. So if you have a representative that isn't representing you adequately, call them up, leave them a message, challenge them. Basically my goal has been to really personalize politics and not make it seem as this really complex thing. Like I kind of visualize the target audience being like my mom, for example, who has these underlying principles of like equality that she supports and ending poverty, but isn't necessarily as politically engaged because she doesn't know about all of the ins and outs because if you just tune into MSNBC or CNN, you're not going to get a fundamental understanding of really what's happening. So my goal really is to break it down on the most elementary level. So people understand what's happening and why politicians do the things that they do. So what are some of the root causes because I don't think you can really get politically engaged and involved unless you understand what's happening. So to kind of explain how institutions work, how money and politics influences politicians, why politicians do things that really are against common sense. Like why are we allowing Saudi Arabia to use our weapons to bomb, bomb babies in Yemen? You know, so if people understand the causal mechanisms, then I think it makes them, it gives them the sense that they can't take action because you can't really address a problem unless you know what the problem is. And that really is empowering to people, just knowledge in general is empowering. But at the same time, the reason why I've been trying to expand who I reach and I'll be debating a Republican in the next month is because there's a lot of competing philosophies and you know, Peter, there's scapegoating. Donald Trump will say it's immigrants that are the cause of your problems. But for me, I take this macro approach and I say, no, it's the system. Capitalism corrupts everything. And I know that you're not necessarily on board with, you know, democratic socialism and whatnot. But this is basically the way that I approach it. Well, let me say this, like my position on that, here's the thing like I studied philosophy in college, right? But you know, I know that isms and ists, if they're used incorrectly and imprecisely can create more problems, like I've seen, you know, sophisticated thinkers and academics completely disagree on interpretations of these things. So my attitude is, look, I don't know enough to know which system is the better system. So I'm not like pro-capitalist or socialist or democratic socialist or social democrat. I really just say, look, I see injustice in front of me, and I'm going to fight against them. And I'm going to leave it to people who know a lot more than I do about the systemic issues. I do know one thing, and I agree with you 100%. The system is not just broken, but the system is set up to maintain the status quo, right? Because the people who are in power right now don't want to lose power. You know, there's some great books like Nancy McLean's Democracy in Chains and others that talk about the oligarchs who are completely anti-democratic, who have now used the Republican Party as their vehicle. And of course, we know the Democratic Party is not fighting it for whatever their reason, either they're not capable or they don't want to. And again, it's important to distinguish. I don't think Democrats are nearly as bad as Republicans, and I don't want to ever have a false equivalence there. I always want to put that on the table. But, you know, the Democratic Party is not doing what needs to be done or we wouldn't be where we are today. So I completely am with you that there needs to be some systemic change at a deep level. And I can understand how people see Bernie Sanders as a vehicle for that change because he's going after the establishment. Now, by the same token, if you define establishment too widely, you can try to start pulling in people who get deeply offended by that because it's like, wait a minute, you know, we're fighting for issues or we are not the establishment. Look, it's tough, Mike. It's really tough. This stuff is really difficult, right? I mean, we are fighting a battle where we live in a world of profound injustice, a system that is geared to just to take care of the 0.1 of the 1%. And we all of us are just minions in their lives, you know, and we can't let that happen. We have to stand up and fight back. And it's scary sometimes. It's not what you do is courageous. You know, I try to be brave and be out there. I get threats all the time from all sides, right? Primarily, of course, the far right because I go after them. But what do we do? Say nothing? Give up? See what I'm saying? Yeah, absolutely. So I want to kind of, and I'll give you the last word, but what I want to do is because I'm assuming there's going to be a lot of Hillary Clinton supporters or just people from that wing of the party who will watch this and assuming that there's going to be a lot of Bernie supporters, I kind of want to explain my position to the Hillary people and I want to give you the opportunity to explain your position to the Bernie people. Because I think that really the overall, you know, I think goal is just understanding, not agreement. We're not going to agree on everything. That's definitely something that may be achievable in the future. But for now, it's just understanding. And for me, a lot of people, I think that the number one criticism of me is that I go after the Democratic Party too much. And I think there's this justifiable worry that why would you want to demonize the only party that keeps Republicans from getting power? And I think that that is a legitimate concern. But for me, I actually kind of come from this political science background where I study other countries that, you know, I got my masters in comparative politics. And I look at these political opposition parties from around the world, and I see that if they're not strong enough in the face of right wing craziness, for lack of a better word, that doesn't just mean that people are going to be worse off. That literally could be the demise of democracy. So one example I always cite on my show is Turkey. You know, the reason why Erdogan currently is not consolidating democracy and is instead consolidating his own power is because the opposition party, the party on the left in Turkey is so weak that he's been able to essentially do whatever he wants. And I kind of sit here in terror as I see the same thing happen in the United States. We have an opposition party that's so weak. And we have a party that is so far off the spectrum. You know, Republicans are just, they're fascistic now. I don't think you can really disagree. No, they aren't. We just have to call it what it is. That's what they are. We have to call it what it is. Yeah. So the only way I ever see us getting out of this mess is if we have a party that actually fights them tooth and nail. And that's essentially the reason why I'm so hard on Democrats. It's not necessarily because, you know, I'm the secret Republican operative who wants to bring them down. I'm trying to basically look at it from the standpoint of, you know, if this was my child where, you know, your child is like a crackhead and you want to shake them and say, wake the fuck up. You know, I mean, not the best analogy, but that's where I'm coming from. I hear what you're saying. No, I totally hear. Look, I think you're going to find that a lot more people who you would consider, and let's even move it past Hillary and Bernie, like generally speaking, you know, Democrats, progressives, leftists who come from different angles are starting to agree that like on the impeachment issue, I've been arguing forcefully for impeachment. If you don't impeach Donald Trump, there's no point in having impeachment in the Constitution. Similarly with stuff like Brett Kavanaugh, Democrats should have simply walked out of that hearing. You don't empower and legitimize this authoritarian takeover of our government. I mean, these people have no respect for the rule of law, same with, you know, the hearings today with Barr. So I think you and I are coming from the same place on why the Democratic Party needs to be pushed. Look, we elect people to push them in the right direction. You don't just elect people and sit back and say, you know, we trust them, right? And so I think that, you know, I've argued with a lot of people who just come out and tell me, trust Pelosi or trust Schumer, whatever. I'm not going to trust anybody. I don't like where we are. And I don't think they know how to get us out of here. I don't, you know, in some cases in the Democratic leadership and the establishment in Washington that I encountered when I worked there, I don't know that they want to change the system, right? So, you know, there's voted, you know what I'm saying? Like there's, do they know how to? Do they want to? And I don't want to impugn individual people necessarily. But when they're screwing up, we're going to call them out on it. So I think, look, getting to know you, reading your policy positions, you know, you're clearly a thoughtful person who cares about the country, right? You're trying to come about it. So I would ask, I would ask people who would otherwise not look at you because of the whole Bernie Hillary stuff or pay attention to what you're saying. It's a go, just go to your website or to watch your show and just say, you know, look at what this guy's talking about, you know? And for me, this is how you and I connecting. I think many people can do this. And on the ground, it happens. Look, there are people who connect on the ground level, on the organizing level, who do what you and I are doing. I think sometimes in the digital realm, it's a little bit people more standoffish and more tribalist and sort of mob form. But look, this is what this is a wonderfully inspiring conversation for me. I really, I like what you do. I respect how open you were. I ask other people to just say, look, you know, let me, if I can just get back to the beginning. Sure. People say, you know, I'm doing this to sell a book or I'm doing, you know, I'm grifting. And I laugh, I say, wait a minute, if I wanted to grift, I'd go right. I wouldn't go left. You know, the money's not on the left, right? So I always laugh when people say you're grifting is like, look, I'm just following my gut instincts. I'm just some dude who was a musician who like just wants to help people, right? Because I just want to leave a better world behind for my family. Maybe I'm not doing it the right way. Maybe I am, but believe me, I'm coming from a sincere place. I mean, it's like, I, this is my whole life. This is all I do. You know, my wife and I, like, you know, we don't make money from doing this. We just care. So, and I know you do. And I know you do too. And a lot of people out there do. So, you know, I hope we can all come together. This feels good to talk to you. Yeah, it does. It absolutely does. And did you want to close by like any specific targeted message to people who you were basically previously butting heads with? Like, what would you say to the to the Bernie supporters, you know, who are still skeptical? Because look, there's, you're not going to be able to erase skepticism. People will be skeptical of me saying, oh, Mike's bringing on Peter Dowd because he wants clicks, you know, because people I'm sure will want to watch. So the skepticism in this climate I think is justified because you have to be skeptical because really we're in this place where people are cynical for good reason. But I mean, I just want to open the floor to you and let you kind of have the last word here and say what you need to say. I appreciate that. I appreciate that. Look, you can't, you can only earn respect. It's something I learned, you know, as a Lebanese guy, right, in Lebanon where respect and dignity and honor are extremely more prioritized than they are in our culture in America. So for me, you know, dignity and honor, sometimes that's why I'm so contentious and I fight with people. I know I piss people off. Look, no matter what I say, Mike, I'm going to piss somebody off. I've learned that the right, left, center, Hillary, Bernie people, whoever, you know, it's like, and that's okay. I've been doing this 20 years. And I know there are going to be people who are going to just want to go after me and question my motives. And that's all fine. When I call it a digital civil war in my book, because it's a battleground, right? It's a battleground out there. And I'm going to take my hits. I'm going to take punches. I'm going to throw punches back. But all, all, all I really would like to say to people is we all can disagree without impugning the integrity of another person. I, you know, every time, you know, somebody doesn't agree with what I'm saying. I don't have to say you're a horrible person at the core. I can just say, look, I vehemently disagree with you. You're just dead wrong and leave it there. We've, we've learned to just go to the next level and say, you're horrible. And, and we need to learn to stop that. I need to learn to also, you know, understand, you know, people's skepticism. That's what I'm trying to do. You know, I make jokes about my 2016 self with people who were attacking me, who I had blocked back then because you got to have a sense of humor, right? Human beings. So, so that's all I say. Like, I know I have to earn respect of all sides, not just Bernie Sanders support, not Hillary support. Anybody I'm out there, you know, sort of dealing with politically, people will only know me through my actions, my words and my intellectual honesty. And if that comes across, great. And if it doesn't, I'll keep working. So that's sort of where I'm at. All right. Well, Peter Dow, it's been a great conversation. The book is Digital Civil War, Confronting the Far Right Menace. Peter, tell us when the book comes out and where people can purchase it. It just came out literally yesterday. So thanks for asking. And, you know, anywhere where books are sold, it's really just actually digital civil war.info will take you to all independent booksellers, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, anywhere else where they sell books. And, you know, look, the book is my life's learning 20 years of doing politics. It's my first book, you know, so it's like everything I've learned, I threw it in that book and hopefully it helps others understand what the hell is going on with this with our country, because this is terrifying times and it's going to get worse before it gets better. And that's what's so scary to me. So we got to all step up. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on. Hopefully this will be the first of many conversations. And I hope that other people kind of do the same thing and try to just, you know, be more open-minded and talk to people who they previously disagreed with and maybe still do disagree with. So thanks so much for coming on, Peter. It's a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for being so open. I appreciate it.