 Welcome back to the breakfast on plus TV Africa. We had straight to a second conversation where you have Nigerians Union. Some group are saying that Nigerians Union is right for negotiation and to make sense of all of this we will be speaking with Mark Adeboye who is a public affairs analyst. I beg your pardon Mark Adeboye a public affairs analyst. All right good morning Mark Adeboye it's good to have you join us. Yeah good morning. Good morning my sister. Implement of decision. Okay so let's talk about this you have you know the group who have actually come out to say yes it's time for us to have that renegotiation. Let's have the you know conversation as to allowing some persons because we also want to agree with me that there's a constitutional review that's going on. Now the argument here is that you need to suspend the constitutional review and a call for you know a referendum for those who are agitating for self-determination you know to go their way. So we understand who we have in Nigeria. Well like let's understand what's happening let's understand who is left. This is what you know you have this group of persons saying. Thank you so much. Good morning once again. Can you hear me? Yes we can hear you go ahead. Okay I think this conversation is long overdue. You know the biggest lies the biggest lie that we have been telling one another in this country for a very long time is that the unity of Nigeria is non-negotiable. All that is border-dash you know the unity of a country cannot be based on injustice and we expect that unity to to survive which cannot. So Nigeria has been long overdue for renegotiation for a rediscoction and a rediscovery for us to move forward as a as a country because Nigeria is not actually a nation we are just a country you know because of the of our differences which has which have been exacerbated in the last six years plus of the Bwari administration. We have never been this divided. We have never been this ethno-religiously conscious you know. So Nigeria has been long overdue for renegotiation. So like I said at the beginning the biggest lie we have told ourselves this country is divided. Nigeria's unity or union is non-negotiable. Now they can be further from the truth. You know you cannot say for the sake of family solidarity for you to remain in an abusive marriage for instance. If somebody says marriage isn't dissolvable but you are in a violent marriage you are an abusive marriage you have to your life is more important than marriage. That you are alive that you are alive is more precious than being remaining in a marriage. Many people are foolishly remaining in a violent marriage that eventually cost them their lives. So we cannot have a country where we the Far Con cannot hear the Far Con and we expect us to remain without discussing the the basis upon which we are going to proceed as a country you know. We need to give opportunity to people who have divergent views about the continuous existence of Nigeria as a corporate entity. We need to we need to allow them to give expression to their views through referendum which has been long overdue. If we are if you know some of us are the level of confederalism organization to which I belong. We were advocating for destruction in the country but it's like that one is already late in the day because why we were advocating for destruction the powers that be wouldn't want to hear about that. Now there are people who have come up who are self-determinationists who say look we are even tired of the old concept of Nigeria we want everybody oh Israel to his house. So I I believe first of all to that everything here in Nigeria know that this country is long overdue for renegotiation. We need to discuss Nigeria. We need to come to the table and you know discuss the basis upon which we want to continue to live together as a corporate entity. So if we allow that to happen for instance we allow for a referendum you know for people to even determine first and foremost whether they want to continue to remain within the corporate Nigeria we are we need to determine that whether the north wants to continue whether the south southeast want to continue or south south or southwest not central not west north east so we are we need to for for us to come together at a round table to discuss whether we want to continue as a corporate entity and upon what basis are we continuing and if you are not going to continue if some people feel strongly about opting out they wish it's a constitutional and international you know right there are international legal instruments that allow for that and we should not silence people who believe that Nigeria should be negotiated and of course for people to now determine the basis upon which we will continue to live together. Alright Mr. Adebayo but let's look at Nigeria historically and talk of you know when it comes to the nation's union you know all the roundtables and discussions that you know have been held you know the CNG is saying that I'm fine let's do a referendum let's those calling for self-determination you know actually know if that's would actually work but if I were to ask you know do you think that if Nigerians were to get what they want as in the secessionist those with the secessionist theory get what they want do you think the country would be better off for it judging by the fact that some people ordinary cannot even generate time their own income internally. Well you see it is not different about whether some entities are viable or not it is for us to discover or to discuss what really led to this call what led to this call it is primarily and fundamentally caused by leadership failure you know leadership failure this Nigeria will have a great country I believe we are better together I don't think we are greater together but when you begin to see the politics in their face almost criminal manner whereby some people now begin to feel like fifth class citizen in their own country where if you are not from a particular part of the country if you are not from a particular religion you are not considered a Nigerian like like you know for instance some of us now believe that the fullerization agenda is real if the Bwari administration has no help matters you know nobody has come with this agitationist and self-determinationist issues pre-bwari when it was during the June 12th with the Yoruba people felt justifiably hot and unjustly dealt with when the June 12th relation was announced and the identity of that June 12th relation was was modern so we got angry I said okay okay you know we've got to have or do our self-determination groups we've got to have Yoruba nation groups that was good but after the June 12th issues no sort of went down and of course the country had to move on nobody was talking about that again but immediately Bwari came in. Bwari exacerbated our ethoreligious diversity rather than you know the kind of diversity we have is something that will have made another country great if we were to have the right leadership so it is failure of leadership if there were justice nobody would be demanding for the freedom in fact nobody would be demanding for self-determination nobody would be asking for a renegotiation of Nigeria Nigeria the largest black country in the world will have been better together but for the fact that it is being rubbed on our faces that if you are not the full and if you are not the northerner you are like second class or third class citizen in this country because the Bwari administration has failed to manage our diversity in the manner that will give confidence and hope to all Nigerians that yes we can continue as a country the asking the demand for self-determination the demand for renegotiation of Nigeria is on the basis of the injustices and graphited injustices as promoted by the Bwari administration let me give you one instance the issue of killer others the issue of killer others others that move about killing people in their farms in their towns and now they are graduated to become bandits and become terrorists and then each of the states especially in the south say look even in the north are saying that look we cannot have people under the guise of hardening culture you know committing such heinous criminal activities we are going to have state security agencies to be able to do that because the police refused to anything if you go to the position and report anything about killer others nobody's going to they won't they won't attend to you they don't they are they won't attend to I don't I do not know that is why in one of my interviews I said that like an organization like Mie Tiala and all these kato others are preferelled terrorists under the Bwari administration because you cannot touch them the security agencies will not touch them you if if cows invade your your farm or if I invade your your environment or your community like it happened in the state where kato was sent into a primary school and they went to a classroom and the the police had to run and live their and live their classes that is the kind of impunity that these killer others have under the Bwari administration that is why you see that the Bwari administration has refused to agree that that should be an arranging of kato rather than having a free roaming of animus each time any issue the only issue that this administration is emotional about is passionate about is when we come to the issue of killer others we would say we don't want free roaming of animus they will come up and say no you cannot do this to people's businesses if you say we want to ranching that is everybody should go and ranch their kato the the federal government through garbache or through family additional will come up against Nigerians that are asking for that why because they want to give privilege to some people who are from from part of the country and that is even if they are that is not what they are doing even that is not what they are doing if that is their not their intention that is the impression they are creating for all of us if really the issue of these killer others became and we got out of hand that was when you discovered that was when the issue of the same determination and people and agitation for you know for the country to be dismembered became rife because the government has continued to support these killer others you remember that four or five years ago the federal government offered me a tiara 100 billion era just so that that will not be violent they will not be killing people they offer i'm sure you remember that that happened in this country that was a negotiation i just want to say no we want a minimum of 200 billion so they know that these guys are violent characters but the government rather than deal with them they decided to bribe them but some of us rose up in our voices and began to shout out that it's not going to happen why should we do that why should you know cartoony is the private business it is not something that the federal government will now begin to remember what family additional said and then you give your land you give your life so it's the choice is yours how can there is no responsible government in the world that that will say that so that is why i said let's talk about the causes of these agitations you know let's all do let's all do the causes number one cause is failure of leadership failure of leadership the inability or the unwillingness to manage our diversity in a way that will please everybody that is the cause of these things nobody wanted Nigeria to to be dismembered nobody wanted Nigeria to disunite but when you have a leadership that is unable to guarantee justice that is unable to guarantee equity that is unable to guarantee even progress and development in the country people want to say look i think i'm better off to be on my own part of the country i think that is the issue we have to fix our leadership issue we have to fix our leadership question it is the leadership question that is releasing the Nigerian question and we have to answer those two okay let's also look at some of the consensus some persons have raised over time i mean the issue or the fact that Nigeria is an illegal entity in the sense that the treaty of the treaty of amalgamation of 1914 you know that brought Nigeria together has expired and so we're looking at you know in 2014 that Nigeria right now is an illegal entity and some quarters are saying that there's no validation of that you know in the law or history in the sense that there's no recognition of whether there's anything as you know the amalgamation authority that brought Nigeria together so we would like to get you know your thoughts on this particular you know contention that's ongoing well the 1940s amalgamation was merely a socioeconomic and administrative convenience of the british it's never it's not a constitutional issue it's not a legal issue it is in the face of the law as far as i'm concerned it is non-assistant i wrote a book that we are i wrote a book the title of that book is that there is no Nigeria yet where i said Nigeria is an incomplete now and when used as a negative it qualifies nothing and identifies nobody there is no Nigeria anywhere so amalgamation that treaty is even a much more you know noble noble word for this water that was no treaty that was no that was that was nothing like that that was no we have anybody any group of Nigerians sat down to say that okay we want to be Nigerians that was never any that was no treaty that was no meeting that was no conference that was no confab where anybody historically and constitutional and legally speaking where anybody or group of people sat down to say that we want to be Nigerians no what we what happened i want to talk about the founding father of Nigeria that there are no Nigerians who are founding fathers of Nigeria there are no Nigerians living or dead who are founding fathers of Nigeria what we had were inheritors of Nigeria from the British that were the British are the founding fathers of Nigeria they are the ones that gave us the name they are the ones that that that were ruling us through in the red in the red room that the one who decided okay it is time to now amalgamate the northern and southern territory of Nigeria so there were no Nigerians who ever sat down anywhere to say that we wanted to be Nigerian even to be allowed to fight as Nigerians it is not it's not in history you understand so and i should know because i'm a historian i studied history in the university so and so the the issue of uh you want to uh this united Nigeria then we were never even united in the so to speak so and i am saying that we accept accepted the amalgamation we grew up to accept Nigeria as Nigeria because Nigeria was working you know why because the parliamentary system that we inherited from the British was working for us because of the kind of diversity that we had that we have as a country so we had the parliamentary system of government whereby the south west was in the south the midwest was in the or the south the north was not where was so we had this decentralized system of governance that allows each section of the country to make progress at its own pace with within its capacity and the resources are fully built to it that was why we were able to have the kind of wonders and miracles that Aula was uh that the Aula was able to to to perform in the first division of Africa the first country in Africa there were a lot of there are many things that are still surviving today that nobody has been able to replicate what Aula did in the southwest nobody in fact socially academically educationally health wise in terms of agriculture in terms of the economy in terms of even in terms of the politics and in terms of the leadership nobody no governor has been able to replicate what he did and i want to say and the same thing for the for the for the midwest and the same thing for the for the north on the Amarubello so we have not been able to immediately the building came in on a general agency and and killed the federal system and brought in this unitarized see this unitary system you know that was when Nigeria began to go backwards that that was when every institution like universities for instance that belong to uh the southwest the university that belong to the north the like Amarubello university the stuff for the southwest of Afema Aula university and all the institutions that the federal government took over are now the worst for it now you should have allowed we should have allowed that the centralized system to continue if we are continuing i believe that stuff for instance will have been in dubai of africa now but where are we today where are we today so the the issue is that even if Nigeria were to continue that's why we are asking for the structure let us go back go back to regional the regional system that used to work for us let's go back to the regional system if we don't want Nigeria to be dismembered we have to structure Nigeria if we don't want Nigeria to rupture we have to restructure it you understand me so that we let's go back to the regional system that was working for Nigeria this all encompassing or powerful all major federal government sitting down in Abuja and dictating what happens at the local council level cannot work for Nigeria Nigeria is too diverse to be to you know to be imprisoned within the cocoon of unauthorized repressive system that we are having at this moment we cannot work i mean i'm just chipping if we know the basics of you know a federal system a federal system is not that you know unitarized like you have mentioned or all together powers being separated amongst you know the three levels of government or what have you so i don't know i mean some people have argued that federalism has always been the answer so maybe we're not just practicing the federalism that we should practice and that's why we're experiencing what we're experiencing the federalism that we have in Nigeria has been mismanaged okay let me let me give you an instance the governors the state governors are being humored they are the humored them they call them the chief security officers of their state but the governor that thing governor cannot give order to the commissioner of police if the for the governor to give order to the commissioner of police to do something he would have to call the IGP the IGP will now give order to this commissioner the commissioner under this current system the commissioners of police are actually the chief security officers of the state because remember during that mention when that mention was governor of river steve the see the simply the the police block his way the governor is sitting governor of the state the block is where they say you cannot you cannot pass through this place they said order from above exceeding governor and that's supposed to be the chief secretary of the state and he was the problem they forgot for him to be shot no he got wiser and talked back in the city governor in his home state could not could not pass through a place they say the police block the way the CPC said they should not allow him to pass and he could not he could not pass if he had been there they would have shot him. The檢 Whether the the the it is the thing that come in that control the police you know, so it is not a federal system. We are the governor of the state, the CP. You remember what happened to Chris Igigay, when he was governor of Anambra state, you know, the commissioner of police, and here he moved to the state house and adopted a sitting governor in Anambra state, Chris Igigay. You know this goes in recent memory, so we call that federalism, you know, this is not a federal, this is a unitarized federal system we are practicing in this country. The constitution is a lie. It is, it is, it is false. Decree, is it Decree 40 or Decree 24 of 1999? So it is not, it's not the full constitution, it's a decree. Why are you saying it's a decree? You know, so it's a decree. It's a basic decree. All right, let's talk about it. So we don't have true federalism. What we are having is just concorded, you know, false federalism. This is not federalism. This is, this is a caricature of federalism. All right, Mr. Adebayah, in your, you know, in your exchange, you talked about the need to restructure and all of that, because a whole lot of conversation has actually gone out concerning this topical issue, restructuring. So some people restructuring means some devolution of past. Restructuring means a change of system of government. Restructuring also means resource control. And you also said that Nigeria walked better back in the day when we had a parliamentary system of government, where each region also had enough powers, you know, to handle some of the affairs. But then again, what is restructuring to you? Restructuring to me is to restructuring Nigeria for every zone of the country to have the powers of the authority to determine its fate. Devolution of power. And I wish you, it is not really devolution of power. I'm talking about a wholesome total restructuring in terms of the fact that we don't want the devolution of power under a federal system. We want regional system, internalism. If possibly even a confederation, maybe if you just turn Nigeria to confederation, that would be restructuring for me. That would be restructuring for me, because I don't want to have, I don't want to have a situation where I'll be in the country where I will feel inferior to somebody else, because the person in power believe that some people have the power to offer power and orders. So let us go back to regionalism. I would, look, I am for Nigeria. I am for a social Nigeria. But where restructuring becomes difficult, then of course I will opt to go for Yoruba Nation. I will opt for Yoruba Nation. But for now I am not for Yoruba Nation. I'm not for the displacement of the country. But where it socially becomes difficult or impossible, so people make it so impossible. Then of course, let us, let everybody go their own way. I mean, I will not, I will not talk about regionalism again. I will just talk about the fact that, okay, I want my Yoruba Nation. Let the Yoruba Nation. And of course, look at the coalition of Northern Nigeria, that they are not coming together. You know, they are beginning to see the same some that the Southerners have been seeking for long. They are now beginning to see the fact that Nigeria is becoming an abattox of everybody. They are now saying, okay, I think there will be peace. If for the sake of justice, let me negotiate Nigeria. And please, this country can see work. I don't want you to misunderstand me, this country can see work. But what we need to do is to get the leadership right at the center. Let us get the leadership right at the center. Even under a federal arrangement, where you have good leadership, nobody will talk about it socially. Nobody is going to talk about this member of the country. Nobody is going to talk about self-determination. If you have sterling leaders, if you have sterling quality leaders in the country at the center of power, if somebody who is able to manage our diversity in a way that our diversity becomes an asset and not a problem to us. If you have a leader that is able to unite people, a leader that is able to ensure progress, development, and justice in the country, you will see that nobody, everybody will go silent. Everybody will go silent. Nobody, we will be talking about self-determination and all these things. You know, some people were pushed to the wall and the answer that they had no, they had no option to give them. Probably to become violent, or probably to even begin to escalate their demand towards a less civil war. It's because of injustices. Wherever you have injustices, you can never have peace. Wherever you have injustices, you can never have progress. Wherever you have injustices, you can never have unity. Unity should not come first. The scholars should talk about socio-political and economic justice in the land before we talk about unity and peace. That is it. So failure of leadership is what is leading to the failure of Nigeria as a corporate entity. Nigeria has never, from independence the date, has never been able to be blessed by a patriotic, committed, visionary leader. We have not been lucky to have one. So I'd like to take you on that now, Mark Adebayo. So you have actually mentioned that the system of governance that we are preaching on, even though in the books we say we're a federal government, we're a federal system, well in its sense you have mentioned that we're practicing a unitary system of government. Where you have so much power in the center. But don't you think that it's not about the pattern of government or the type of government that we're practicing? It's just about the people who are calling the shots and running the affairs. And you have also said that we have never had any leader, that's what you're saying, that we've never been blessed to have some kind of good leadership. So I really don't know, you are advocating that we should go back to regional governance. And that might just take us away from all of this quest for self-determination. On the other hand, I'd like to share your thoughts on that. Now, I also want to find out if Nigeria is a signatory to the African Chata that allows Article 20 that allows for self-determination. Why are we very hesitant about that? Well, you are very correct on your premise and your submission that, you know, sort of confirm what I said earlier that we have not been lucky to have. All right, we'll try and reconnect with Mark Adebayo because I think we have him back. Hello, Mike. Mark, can you hear us? All right, we'll try and reconnect with Mark as we are about rounding off this particular discourse. Mercy Day has been so much talk concerning the system of government, the issue of leadership in the resource control, devolution of power, restructuring. A lot of people have different notions concerning that particular concept. You know, by the end of the day, the fact is that what we actually need, Mark, before we lost you, you were trying to answer the question that Mercy raised. We should not think that, really, maybe we go back to regionalism or we go back to, you know, parliamentary system or whatever, you know, or every social Nigeria. It doesn't mean that automatically it is a rule. Every house has its own bad boy. Every house has, every family has its own black sheep. You understand? It's not going to be automatic. If I have my urban nation now, and if the same characters that are mismanaging and mislead Nigeria are now the ones to lead the urban nation, we are going to, it's going to be back to zero. It's going to be back to zero. So we have to, if we are able to manage our diversity, if we are able to manage our leadership recruitment processes in a way that could do the best among us to lead the country, Nigeria doesn't have to go. Nigeria doesn't have to go because if each local government in Nigeria becomes a separate state, it's becoming a deficit state, we may not experience progress if we are having the same crop of terrible human beings. We don't have a political class in Nigeria. We don't have a political class. What we have is a political clique. We have political cliques who are parading themselves as a political class. It's not a shame that after 16 years of independence, we cannot point at one leader that is able to say that, oh, this is one, at the national level, I mean, what is taking us from point A to point B in terms of progress, in terms of development. Or we are having our leaders and ethno-religious bigots who divide us, who even exacerbate our diversity. Okay, so let's get to our thoughts on the fact that, I mean, because we're almost at a time, Nigeria is actually a signatory to the African chatter. Why are we being, you know, hesitant to allow for, you know, because, I mean, in that it allows for self-determination. So why are we dragging foods and not allowing the people, you know, to decide whether or not they want to be together or go the accepted ways? Avoiding that action, that kind of action is not a collective, it is not a collective responsibility of Nigerians. It is the responsibility, it is the fear of the people that benefit from the rot of the other benefit of Nigeria. Those who benefit from, you know, they want a larger Nigeria where they can have more to loot. It is not a collective, Nigeria's demand for that to actuate, to sort of, you know, bring to light that chatter of demand. But the parts that are being, the political cliques, those who benefit from the rot, from the other development of Nigeria are the ones who are already away from self-determination. The common people on the streets who tell you that you want self-determination, because of course this movement has actually made this so look so difficult for Nigeria to continue as a coverage entity. It is a leadership problem, my sister, it's a leadership issue. Alright, thank you Mark Adebayo. Indeed we have been speaking about the state of Nigeria's politics, economy and of course what we need to do going forward. If we need to take that step and do a referendum and ensure that each individual gets to speak what they actually want, you know, as Nigerians. We have been speaking with Mark Adebayo, he's a public affairs analyst. Many thanks for sharing your thought and your input on this particular discourse. We do appreciate it. Alright, thank you for joining us. Alright, in a moment when we return from this quick break, we'll be focusing on crime security, our customs intercept container leading with guns, a tink and island port in the moment and then is, you know, Macri as former assistant director of DSS will be joining us to discuss more on that in a moment. Don't go away.