 I will be taking notes. So, we will just discussing as to what we will do in this. We have Professor B. N. Jain who wants to have a 5-7 minute presentation if you do in a moment. But I thought we will start all of you who would have this sheet. We will go over the questions. But I thought before doing that we can also spend a couple of minutes discussing the topic itself and taking it literally from there. Enabling and empowering educators is the problem. I think we can just ask the question in most many of us are educators. What do we expect from technology to enable us to empower us? Let us have a little set of questions from us. What do we want from the technology and so on. So, we will do that. Professor John Jain will take his presentation because I think he might have to read it. You want it to reply or you have some other suggestion? So, you want it to reply to these questions? No, not that. I have one specific point. I want to have correlation between this envy accreditation policy and this NMUICD so that we can make this e-content delivery as part of the qualitative system. So, I would like to focus on the topic only. So, content there is a content being. Assessment there is an assessment seeing and a content creation assessment and there is a use. So, I would like in this to be focused on just the topic. But let us first see if after this topic is done if we have time then we can discuss other things. But let us try to give these organizers a few great points from our side as to what we need. So, all day we have discussed more about online learning and online teaching. And to my mind that is only one part of how ICT can be used in the entire education sector. So, I want to share with you my own experience as it is long as to how we use. And of course I cannot share because of time constraints. All that we do is it's not. But I do want to give a glimpse of what I do. So, I cannot go to this long story. Let me focus immediately on the time when Internet 17 became talk of the time. Which is when the web happened. And to my mind I think we haven't quite been able to use the web in all its potential. And let me talk not about the various things but about three things. First, and I am not talking about IITs. Let's not focus our attention on the IITs. Let's talk about the 42,000 institutions in this country and the 28 million people who are in the higher education. Have these 42,000 colleges begun to use the web effectively for the purpose of enrolling students? My gut feeling is there are very very few institutions in this country that use the web. How many of our institutions are using the web for the purpose of recruiting faculty? Are we still seeking application in paper form? My gut feeling is 99% of our education is teaching to them. Very few institutions. And I can tell you IIT Delhi started to do that in 2006. Not before that. The web came about in the year 1995 or just before that. Access to library resources, particularly e-sources. How many of our universities are using journals in electronic form? Very few. And I think the time has come for us to not simply promote online education as the mantra or ICT in higher education. We need to emphasize the fact that journals are available in electronic form. And these are available to all colleges and universities in the country. The third, how many of our universities actually have put in place systems so that they can actually track the entire student lifecycle from the day they get admitted to the day they graduate? Very few universities do that. I think these are three out of very many that I think we need to focus on. ICT in higher education is not about MOOCs. Of course I have my own views about MOOCs and I think MOOCs are going to be very important for this company. Then I'll talk about that very quickly. I'm going to talk about three applications for which I believe BitSpanani is going to be a pioneer. The first is ERP, Enterprise Resource Planning Tool that will make the BitSpanani. The second is the BitSan examination that we introduced in the year 2005. The third is the telepresence network of conference rooms and classrooms. And of course we are working on other things. We are also now putting together a building, a data analytics center which will take inputs from the ERP system and spit out processed information so that the administration's leaders can actually track as to what is happening in the university. This is what we call the dashboard. This ERP system will help us operate the dashboard and one of the areas for the dashboard is quality assessment of teaching research. And of course if you are able to assess the quality of teaching that you deliver, hopefully you will be able to assure quality of teaching. Appraisal of faculty performance, etc. This is a sample dashboard. I have not shared everything that we do in the Esplanades for the dashboard. There are only one metrics until at the August 2016 or 2017. I as a vice chancellor or day director of a campus wants to know if we were supposed to invest 150 crore rupees in building construction, how much have we done? We need to know if we have intended to enroll, let's say 2500 students this year, how many have been enrolled? How many of us students have been placed? And so on and so on. The second part is quality assessment, quality of teaching, quality of research. And I think ICT has a very major role to go on. The second application is the online test bed missions that Bitsberani put together in 2005. It's been there. It's a first in India. It is used for the purpose of admissions to the undergraduate program. And they say cat came out just two, three years back. IITs have started to experiment with online education, online testing just two years back, the one year back and so on and so forth. Last summer 139,000 students took the test. And I'll tell you how, they took the test over 50 different sessions, spread over 15 days or so. These are proctored with biometrics. Every student has tried and has been enrolled. That is how we use ICT. I'll share with you that there was one student who did not take the test himself, but reported for admission on the day of admissions. Did we find him? Yes, of course, we detected the fact that he's not the same person as the one who took the test. The entire processing is, my own sense is that I think in the last nine years that we conducted, we have saved at least 5000 reams of paper. And I don't know what that translates into in terms of number of degrees. So what's the big deal about this online testing? The big deal of the online testing is that first of all you've got to take a decision, no two students write the same test. They write comparative tests. And if you do that, then you can hold the test any time of the day, any day in the week, any day of the month, and you can hold it anywhere else in the world. The way the cat is configured, the way JEE is configured, you cannot do that. Even if you went online, you've got to take this very central decision that no two students necessarily have to take the same test. And of course, there are implications of this. If a student misses the test for some reason, missing the bus or falls ill, they can come back and take the test the next day. Use ICT to be able to make our systems more flexible. There's a lot of environmental-friendly, efficient, transparent, blah, blah, blah. There's a third application. Cisco has this beautiful technology called telepresence. What this shows is a picture of a conference room in Balani. There's actually a picture from the innovation of this facility. It sees 18 people in the conference room, and perhaps this conference room's made in Goa campus as well as in Hyderabad campus. There are three big screens out there, and these three big screens open up into the conference room in Goa or the conference room in Hyderabad or any other facility. And of course, there are little screens that you see out there. There are actually many, many more locations that are connected globally. What do we use it for? I use it for to meet with the entire nation. All 36 heads of the entire community. I use it to meet all new faculty members whenever I need to meet. Face to face. Experiences, not what you see inside. Experiences, not what you saw in the morning when... There's a lot more to talk about. Experiences almost...it's eye to eye. They call it immersive. Visiting committees visit our campuses. They can talk to various departments of faculty members across the campuses. Research collaboration becomes possible. And you don't want to spend your time on a very fantastic example. In a matter of 16 hours, faculty members from across the three campuses got together, used the specificity and put together a 26-quarter main project proposal. That's how you use the specificities for it. Ph.D. Waibobosi, across all campuses. Faculty hiring patterns across all campuses. The potential faculty member can show anywhere in Goa, Ilani or Hyderabad to meet. This is the telepresence network. This is the telepresence space, the classrooms. We have such classrooms across the three campuses. And we're putting more such classrooms. How do we use it for? Faculty members in Goa, for instance, get a course across the three campuses. Of course, we're not talking about 200 plus 200 plus 400. We're talking about 15 plus 15 plus 70. I still believe that 600 students cannot be taught by one faculty member at the same time. But certainly, 50, 1600 students can be taught by a faculty member across three different locations. What does that mean? It means that if I have to give 15 courses in a given semester in each of three campuses, I do not have to deploy 45 faculty members. I can do that within 15 faculty members. What does that mean? 30 of my faculty members have more time to do research. Going forward, I'll take two more minutes to share my thoughts on MOOC. Of course, I have some of my friends who are part of the tricky subcommittee on MOOCs. So, technology will continue to evolve both in new applications. I think this is what Anubhav also said this morning. So, whether it is MOOCs or SPOCs, I think one will still have to figure that out. So, these are the things. Let me talk about MOOCs. MOOCs are things that are not already understanding the MOOCs, new SPOCs, for our students. And I'll tell you why we want to use this for our own students. Because it helps address a business problem. So, SPOCs will improve, will help improve quality and scale. This is on-campus, off-campus. We have 11,000 500 students studying on a program. So, we have 20,000 people from the industry who are registered with us for a program, a degree program. So, we have 31,000 500 students who are teaching. It will help me improve quality as well as scale. In other words, I can look to go to 60,000 students in the next 10 years or so. More generally, in India, SPOCs will help improve quality of education of a free-pay, close group of users enrolled for a degree program. This tells me that if I have to teach a course of thermodynamics, I need to deploy 8, 10 to 12 faculty members. And you can well imagine that the quality of faculty members we deploy is not uniformly good. In some cases, it is fantastic. In other cases, it is terrible. I hope you agree with me there. What MOOCs will help me do is to raise the average from 5.5 to at least 7.5, if not 8.5. We will, of course, merge this concept of MOOCs with fluke classes, which is to say that instead of having one tutorial for people, you'll have two tutorials for people. More importantly, for India. Not about this, but for India. We have 28 million students in the higher education sector in the sector. And this is going to be 50 million by short period. Another 15 odd years, we'll have 15 million students in higher education sector. What that means is that you've got to increase the capacity to teach these 15 million, to teach the additional 22 million, which is to say you will need another 15 to 20 million seats in classrooms. All assessment is going to take you 4 trillion rupees to create those seats. And in addition, 1 million faculty members. And imagine trying to hire 1 million faculty members in the next 10 years. Given a situation where 20 to 50% of all faculty positions in all universities in India, Allah will make it. Given the fact that there are certain universities where the youngest faculty member is only 50 years old, 5-0 year old, which is to say that that university will not have a faculty member in about 10 to 15 years. So how do we scale up this from 28 million to 50 million? I think you know what the answer is. And of course, we haven't talked about 200 to 500 million young men and women who need to be scaled. To my mind, while books are still evolving, re-examination cannot wait. Let me stop here. Of course, there are many other things that we need to look at. Whenever we do ICT, we've got to ask the question, does it solve a problem that I cannot otherwise solve? Firstly, second, flexibility, transparency, fairness, timeliness, economy. I think we need to address those questions before we start at the point. Thank you very much. Thanks, Dr. Jain. I'll just try to put up a framework. So Dr. Jain, look there essentially from the rates-planning perspective, how three areas you use technology very effectively? There are just three which are fairly mature. He mentioned, of course, they're using it in a lot of other areas. So that's from an institution perspective. I think if we agree, we can focus this discussion literally on taking this thing, enabling and empowering educators. What I'll do is I'll list down two, three tasks that educators do. Then we'll ask the question, how can these IT-based technologies that have been talked about, moves, et cetera, et cetera, help educators in any of the things we do? That's the first question. The second, since they have addressed it. Also, how can these technologies be used for the teachers' training program? That's also a question. I'll just see whether I've got it right. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. So I was thinking I'll first put down what are the main things educators do. We will also not talk about the research as a side of our lives. I'm thinking it very literally because all this is focused on education. Research is all different all day. So I'll put down when you please correct me if we need to. So job of an educator, I think to use this. I request you please, once we agree to take some notes. So clearly the job of an educator, first of all, is teaching a subject in a semester. I'm assuming pretty much all are in semester world. One of our main tasks is one course, two course, three courses, but each course is independent of each of the five lines. I'll put down some sublimates under it. Clearly that's one of our main tasks. There is another main task that I think all of us do is mentor, guide students for projects, thesis, maybe. I'm leaning out here because that goes into the research world. There is another thing which some of us do, perhaps not all of us would be doing, would be design. So this is something that autonomous universities practically every now and then do, but not everybody does. Curriculum, I was thinking it's a collection of educators who do curriculum development, but yeah, curriculum development is not the task of an educator or educators individually. That's a task typically done by a whole set of educators. It seems like a good framework to have a discussion in. And the question that I want to ask is how can teachers get better, now better in terms of less time, better quality, you define better whichever way, through use of IT, which includes in a very broad way, move, NPTEL, various other things. So all that we've discussed today. So that's what I'm hoping that we can do this. So that's I'm setting the framework. Does that even want to add to the framework? So I will not put down the sub-bullets. So sub-bullets I have, for example, lectures, assignments, grading, upgrading of curriculum, motivating students. So I put things down under when we have to teach a course, what all do we need to do? When we need to guide a student, what all do we do? And then each of these sub-bullets you can argue how we can. In the question segment, question three and question seven, which talks about how do we motivate teachers to actually use it? So how can we, then we can also ask how to motivate teachers? Why don't I do motivate and improve? Because there's all this thing about teachers training faculty. So I don't actually have the question setting my list, and it may be it's in those two questions, but there is something about not just motivating, but how do we support teachers or academics in coming to technology before they can get better at it? Now you might say that's motivating, but there's the ongoing support as well. Okay, so before teachers can even get better at using these tools and technologies for their task, how do we sort of give them enough idea, hands-on experience, etc. so they know what they can do? Is that the question? I think it's question three, question two and question one. So you might motivate them and then you might show them by example and help them understand. And then your question three is your question one. Talking about adoption, technology adoption issues. If I find I say this tool seems good for me, now there's an old issue of adopting technology. So somebody needs to help me, the technology has to be easy, etc. etc. Getting started. So let me put out here maybe. Getting started, technology adoption. How many of you have had any exposure to using ICD? Not bad. How many of you have had students who have used ICD and who come back and tell you about it? ICT for learning, you mean? Yes, ICT for learning. And what is the overwhelming feedback from the students? Initially it's a lot of intimidation and then completely classification. No, not from you, but even now I'm talking about students. So usually it's like I'm not going to ever enter. I know, but this is what you're talking about when you use ICD in the students' reaction. So how many of you have students who use ICD outside of your class? I mean, of course it's taught by someone else. So in some sense that's the flip class. We're already practicing here. We have to use ourselves to... How the role of the teacher will change in an IT unable to work? So that's why I wanted this to be a role of teacher. Okay, nice to meet you. Good morning. So how does a role of a very important teacher change or evolve with use of these tools? I think that's a very important question. If you do accept that you want to use it, then do we continue doing the same thing with a little bit of this or do we change it? Broadly, then we put down these things and then we'll start questioning. What challenges are effective? Challenges for... When we are using ICD for important training, what major challenges? Okay, for it, I think... Motivation is one part of the teacher. But to challenges in terms of technology... Challenges in use of ICD? Yes. I think that you can put question to broadly as challenges. How to motivate? Because that's also part of the challenge. Motivation is one part. Connectivity part, because India is so big country. The infrastructure. That's a big challenge actually. People are not standing for this part. So if I may, let's talk about assuming that all that is there. Because otherwise we'll get lost in South India. No, no, that has to be. Without that we won't be able to... It's important. There's no doubt about it. And all that is very important without doubt about it. And I'm saying the question we should... Because there's only one and a half hours to open it up to something. If you agree, let me just put down now some sub-bullets here. That will give us the framework. So what I had put down and we can just... But of course, for teaching, we give lectures. We do assignments, transform assignments. We do grading. Very challenging portion. We do projects perhaps in classes. We motivate students. They are two. They are two. Take attendance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Quite right, quite right. Two. Take attendance, which we don't do. Which we don't do, but yeah. Take attendance. Do you still do it in high school? No. Well, that's what I'm saying. Many places do. We can do it. That's why I forgot about it. Then of course there is course management. Course feedback. Course feedback, quite right. Course feedback. In fact, these are places where technology is very... It's almost standard use. And also sometimes we... Well, we just update into curriculum. Right, we can do some more. Let me just put a sort of cross-cutting concern. Sir, interactive. After it will be interactive. So, yeah, okay. And then there is a cross-cutting concern which teachers need to have, is to have subject matter expertise. I mean, you don't do it as when you're teaching, but if you don't have subject matter expertise, it's a challenge. The reason I really want to put it, because much of the teacher's training program seem to be addressing this issue rather than any other issue. That's my take on it. Now, please, is that generally agreeable? Then we can start talking about how can technology move this, that, and here, and here, and here, and here, take some of this thing, put down some notes. How can it help? How have you seen your experience and how you think it may help? Do you resolve that? Yeah. So, this... Actually, I'm Rajadatta. There are some feedback. In fact, we are with Professor Fartas that trained to 10,000 teachers. And there are some feedbacks I think we can, I can share with you, which will help in the discussion, actually. The feedback which we're talking about. Like, we had recently finished one workshop on signals and systems. And I think it will help in the discussion. Yeah. Yeah. The feedback... Should I say it or...? Yeah, I think it's... They're using all these... Right, right, right. Then I'll take some notes. Right. We had given some 29 questions to our... to our participants. So, can you please just explain the feedback on what... The... No, no. The feedback was on a workshop conducted by IIT Kharagpur last semester on signals and systems. There's a course, signals and systems in 10,000 teachers. Yeah, right. But if you don't mind, signals and systems is a topic. We... No, no, no, no, no. It's... I'm giving you... This is just an instance of a workshop. So feedback on using... Using some method of... Using a method. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Method. Just a method. No, no. Basically, let me... Let me just give you some examples. Like, the highest qualification of the teachers in India. MTech is around 71.68%. So, this is the highest qualification we have got. So, it just take an instance and then I think it can be generalized little bit. Age group, of course, is very important. Of the teachers, they participate in this type of ICT programs. 35... 25 to 30 years is 44 or 45%. Okay. Yeah. Age group is very important. Less than... There are less than 25 years also. They are mostly BTEC teachers. They are 10.5%. 30 to 35 is around 25.38%. So, this feedback was collected through ICT. Yeah. Did you use ICT to collect all this feedback? Yeah. We... After this workshop, after this workshop, we had collected this feedback. So, the way I see it... I'd like to thank you to raise the other one. If it goes back... Okay. Okay. We can discuss. Yeah. If you agree to this framework, then you make very nice feedback. You try to be lecturing. You found... In motivation, you found... Okay. In something you found, otherwise it goes another talk and then you have to come back. Yeah. Right. Yes, please. Now, you please start commenting. So, what courses have some practical component, for example, a lab? So, projects for assignments, what gets called as assignments, projects or labs. Very nice. Quite right. Electrical, mechanical. Absolutely. Yes. I was going to say the same actually about, I think some of that list is subject specific, because if you talk to the social sciences, they will talk about seminars. Oh, this... The sessions... Oh, the sessions... Yes. Yes. Sorry. Absolutely. I think there's something about that. The sessions... Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. One... One... Yes. So, you as an instructor will have to facilitate role play, discussion and so on, if you need to do that. I was going to say, one thing that's really struck me about today, actually, is how brave and bold you are being as a nation with your engine, with your endeavor. I'm serious about that. I know that sounds crass, but actually I don't think I've seen anything as brave and bold as this. And yet, disappointingly, I see lectures at the top. Because you could talk about education in the broadest sense, and then you think, isn't our lectures involved in ICC or because otherwise you just technologize the lecture. So, you're saying, if we use this, can we just sort of get out of the flip-flop, out of the lecture, this thing? I think you're such a brave thing that to miss thinking about what good education looks like, it's a real missed opportunity. Because otherwise, you're just using your existing model of education and using technology rather than... Okay. One thing, and what we should do is, because as I said, some of you had these discussions, how do you really do education totally differently? But the fact of the matter is a lot of education will continue to get done, the way it is getting done, we can improve it through the use of technology. At some point, maybe it will get reversed into a very different way. For us in India, it's a paradigm shift to even talking about bringing technology in the classroom. So, you just seem to start going about, you're there, you're there, or reckless. Yes, I am. Or reckless, so it makes this. I'm a pointer, I'm a very average technology, I would say, a savvy faculty. But yet, I would respect some of the conventional practices we follow and we have to look at that exact interplay that is required for a subject or a classroom, you know, in terms of the numbers. I would put it another way also. The way the system is set up, it's not going to go away anytime soon. We will be asked to teach a course, we will take a lecture three times a week. What we can do is make it more interesting, make it more likely, make it more learning experience, all that we can do, active learning, all that we can put in there. So, but that's an excellent point. How do you just do it in very different ways? Learning happens, maybe teaching is not here. But let's discuss all this and if we start now, we'll see, so we can start. I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, we have to ensure that every day we give them exactly what is known at that particular time. So that we serve them... I couldn't agree with you more, but if you go into that... Yeah I, specifically put this thing and I don't thing you can be subject matter expert one time and then stay subject matter expert with an exchange rate, which is the point, so shall we put down some ideas now? Yes. Yes summer internship, I will also say extract programs for teachers, faculty, I would even be old enough to say that even administrators need exposure to how the university is allowed to study. So that is a teacher improvement and talking about the students because she is talking about faculty, she is talking about students. Yes. How the students get exposed to, that is what I say. Sir, maybe it can be an ancient school concept otherwise in a glorious course time will not be sufficient for the students. Eight weeks training, school semester training, there are institutions. So sending faculty to the industry and the industry people coming to the educational institutes to share their experiences. So learning this industrial experience. I am talking of how to deliver very quality faculty. Sir, how do we use high school in all that we do or how do we do it? So I am trying to learn so we can say something. The question to this, the teachers are what they are as of now though there is this other question. First question we should ask, how can we as teachers use any of the things that we have heard, read about, thought about into any of these or this task. The second is of course how do you improve the teachers, the question that I think in India we are very, how do teachers help other teachers to perform better. So you are saying besides teaching a subject, besides mentoring, we also form a community. Sir, it is kind of a question, can that be like your solution? Community of teachers. Yeah, instead of using that like a question, we could use that as a solution. That is true. This community of teachers. Okay, the way I put it is this is another job we educators do, that we are a community and we can use technology to actually help in our community work. Facebook, actually the community is really social network is really very possible. A teacher helps another teacher on ICT and that could be a solution towards the question. Go teaching. Yeah, go teaching. Sir, how do we put that? That could be like a solution to these questions. I just want to add one thing, very major thing here is, one in the degree does not mean he becomes a teacher. It is a very big issue now. Now if you feel that is an anti or PSD becomes a teacher, it is a very big issue. Right? So what we have to do just become the teacher using ICT or technology in different fashion is a different thing. As a teacher in the classroom is a totally different idea. So we have to focus on the fifth point here which is already there. That is the need to integrate faculty development program for that. It should be a solution sort of thing rather than the question. So what we have to focus on rather than the questioning, how can the teacher gets use of ICT? First we have to prepare them as a teacher because as this one to add, I already discussed with you. We are the 4 and 18 years working for last 35 years, 45 years for teacher's training program in pedagogy and other things. Now what we can propose here is, if anybody is from MTag or PSD or somewhere, first they have to go for, Mr. is also thinking in that direction, 3 to 4 months of integrated course using ICT with the approach of pedagogy. That's why the first point is how we can say this become a teacher? No, teacher is having a different characteristics. Some people is a born teacher, maybe born teacher, but some require something. That's add to the third part to the content delivery. We are not going for that part. If we are going for ICT enabled because our topic is enabling imperative powering. We should be very, very careful in that before answering all this first part, reaching the subject, all this, all required pedagogy approach using ICT. There is no before or after. This is a very family question. How can we use ICT for battlefield development? You are in particular talking about pedagogy training. This question is different. The question is that ICT gives some qualification for teachers. Now if you are emptied, then you become a teacher. He is saying that a person should have gone for the entire year. Where are the teaching learning process and pedagogy should be embedded? Sir, we have it, but is there a teacher? So are you talking about ICT qualification? That's really a very different question. No, no, no. We are talking about battle-free development. Sir, I would like to add that. Where is the agreement? I don't understand. To relate it to this, I am posing the same question. I think that's what you are saying. How can we use these technology tools for the faculty development? Where we are proposing something to the planning commission or the meta-media, it should be a policy matter that a person who is going to be a technical teacher must possess following qualifications. So if you also get into that, most of us may disagree with that. If you want to discuss policy, that's going to be very good. I disagree actually. Not only for saying the qualification. I don't know. I never have gotten into a certificate. Most of the people disagree. That is why this situation is so so. If we discuss the policy, this thing of that, then we'll get into it. You know, just as we say that we should have the facility, we should use ICT for students to be assessed anytime, anywhere, or whatever their skills. You know, ICT can do the same work for faculty as well. Man, that's true. Man, it's very intuitive. It's very hands-on. We learn on our own. But what I sort of agree is that if we are here today, just to control a thought. And that is exactly what I personally am able to feel. Yes, if we can have a program, which is a formal training program for school teachers, why not have a higher education? I think, Man, the question being raised is there are two sets of teachers we're talking about. New teachers and existing teachers. And if you talk about new teachers, yes, there could be a criteria to say, whatever new teachers come in here. Just think about the staff development colleges to have faculty. And there are some colleges, right? There's not only new teachers. I agree. This is a training program for teachers. It's not a training program, but they're nice. So we are saying that when it comes to that, how do you actually show up and put in power? So that's what you can do. Yeah, just as well. You make it possible. It can be useful or interesting. Absolutely. That's all a virtual model. It can be completely virtual or... So formal training program for teachers. And since we are talking in this case, it's all about IT. How do we question would be, how do we leverage technology for this? How do we make it flexible anytime, anytime, anywhere? Any time, anywhere. I agree with the existing teachers. Get on an IT platform. Even if credits, let's say, or whatever. But the idea is to get on an IT platform. Or to get a certificate. That's a lot of future programs in career. Exams, exams, exams, they will net exams. But it's more relevant to those... We can't say it's not. Qualification is not a teacher qualification. It's basically UNTEC or something. It's a subject vector expertise. But how do you articulate it? How to present. It's going for the learning-based, learning outcomes. Objective, writing objective, container analysis. Which requires a lot of efforts. Using ICT also. Yeah, so that's... I mean, I think we should... It should just be leveraged technology for format training. Training program for teachers. So, again, my component of flexibility and continuous exposure, which is continuously updated. Absolutely. Another point is that this will enable teachers to be immersed in the technology experience. Now we depend on others. And somebody will do something for us. Somebody will even plug in the Wi-Fi connection for us. Dependency. Because it's about becoming independent users and disseminators. This is the part of this. If we go for three months, four months, you want it. For any profession, there is training. Faculty. Yeah, start there. And then we're going for industry. We're going to set costs of the industry. But for teaching, it's called when they're there entering without having even good communication skills or elements. So, though just to keep in mind, perspective in mind, we have a VA limit program. I don't think it is... That's... That's just to... Because we as country are very you know, certificated enough. So, just to put it in perspective, I think broadly we agree that there is not improved school education much more. What is education program? We are talking about the training program. There are totally different two issues. One is education, another is training. But training also, UGC has these training programs. Nobody opts for it. No, no, they opt for it, but they may not feel that it's a drudgery and I don't think anybody is happy. They're just waiting for the last day. That's true, that's true. So, ma'am, we are assuming here that the content of all that is good. We are going to get a copy of the content. So, I think we'll keep that in mind. There is no doubt that teachers, the world teachers can benefit from teachers training program. There's no doubt about that. From good teachers training program. Sir, I have some... I think you want to say something. Sir, we both are from teachers. There are four institutes in India. It is National Institute for Technical Teacher Training. It's one we are having in Chandigarh from where I'm coming. Professor Agarwadi is from Gopal. Another institute where the third we are having at Kerkata. So, 1967, it has been started. And till we just back, we were using the convention method of training for the teachers. Short-term training program, say one day, 15 days, 10 days, even more in your form. Last year, we have started this IG. And one part is this NVIDIA part where videos are available on the website. Another one that is AV software in the morning we were discussing. Amrata is this virtual software we are using. What our experience is, my experience is from little Chandigarh which I am saying. We are having very good time. Just to understand. So, your module was that you would teach the great teachers. Some modules. Some modules. About course design. Pedagogy, pedagogy, development, so many of them. So, you were teaching them as per the syllabus. And teachers used to come to our place. So, it was very costly. A lot of money was needed. And in our region, I am controlling from Chandigarh. That is nine states are there. Starting from Jammu and Kashmir to UP is in our area. Then Professor Agrawal is looking after. Five states he is looking after. So, in our case in nine states starting from Jammu and Kashmir to UP there are 4,500 institutes. Polytechnic, hearing colleges, government institutes, pharmacy. And our capacity was to train around 4,500 teachers per year. So, 4,500 institutes we are having. We are able to train 4,500 teachers. One teacher per institute more or less. So, we have started this ICT mode of imparting training. If I may ask, once you accept, once you just describe that you sort of now teach the trainers. Why can't we then just say that the prospective teachers are the students here. And you are the instructor. And therefore we come back to the same problem of teaching teachers, teaching students in a more effective manner. Or is it a fundamentally different problem? No. It's okay. It's okay. Maybe I actually thought of that because we also do. Yes. I thought it was still about teachers teaching a set of students. It doesn't have to be undergraduate. It happens to be us sitting here and maybe you standing here giving a lecture. Or is it a different problem? A teacher taking at the entry level professional teaching experience to have an idea about how to go for teaching and analysis and that etc. Second one is an inducted person getting a training for the training. Continuing education. Continuing education. Two different issues. What we are lacking in India is a teacher is not being trained before taking teaching as a professor. Many people are joining as a stopgap arrangement. It's everyone, it's a fact. We have to accept it. So a situation has to come wherein everyone must be trained before taking up teaching as a professor. That's what our view is actually. I'm going to start. Lots of countries are pushing the life of the dual professional. Yeah. UK has done a very nice, I studied it. It's a little bit like a founder. Yeah. Really nice one. These short ones work on pedagogic experts on subject matter experts. You know that other people are now adding on to that technology and knowledge as well. So if you're not familiar with it have a look at the team and framework. So you could go back to your government ministers and say this is actually what we want our educators at the future to look like and have been engaged with. So some training on education around education. They have the subject matter expertise and now you want to go into them the way with an understanding of how sexuality can help. Yeah. When you get that right, wow. Yeah. Yeah. And that's... It's a very nice modeling. Content of. You see and folks explain to me a little bit. Very nice modeling they're doing or giving teachers through certain things. Well, in any case, I still think... Yeah. Because I still think it comes down to somebody teaching there and the reason I want to say because this is both for the blacking in the country for that and the teaching but that's just I cannot get into that. Let me get into this. So what we are using from Chandigarh, what we are using Google and in your case, you are using a view we are using Google and so just just seven point which are having in ours. No. So those of social media for how we hang out and delivery. Yeah. Social media. For interaction. Yeah. Social media. So we are using Google for interaction between interaction. We are we are say interaction between and connectivity which are having we are having through Google Hangouts through YouTube in fact. No, that's for Google Hangouts. And you understand what is not style. Yeah. So this is for delivery of content. It is for delivery of content. Okay. So for pictures itself yes. Yes. You are using Google Hangout on that YouTube. Yes, YouTube and so what we are using of YouTube. Live also Yes. It is recorded on YouTube. So yes sir we are using just like NPT is having we are using YouTube. NPTEL has also put all the lectures on YouTube. One on YouTube also. Yes. And just like NPTEL we are having NCTL. And around 1000 videos we are having on that one which were created during last one and a half years. Those videos are available on that one. Our training capacity earlier we were having 2500 teachers now it has gone some 17000, 18000 per year. So training capacity of hours has gone up and most of the training has gone down. The teachers are not coming where they are at their own places no TADA nothing has to be given. So one as Professor Arora was suggesting regarding industry part what we are doing suppose I see the subject I have taken we are giving training one is one week we are keeping for pedagogy one week we are keeping for content based suppose some new teachers they are Sir you are Sir your module has better content than you are using a good point now to this discussion you are using and maybe can we just record so at least for teachers training modules they are using Google Hangout and YouTube for content delivery for nature YouTube for storing for storing so the equation is Sanjay was raising that some training has to go to teachers so the pedagogy part which we are doing that is basically even MTech someone has joined but that in more or less after certain experience no they are taking this advantage of this pedagogy training which we are giving then content based part is coming are you using any of these for example for assessment of these teachers just complete then what we are doing for industry part which is saying suppose I am teaching ICNN internal combustion I am teaching so in 5 days training program fundamental part I am taking from IT Delhi and the 5-6 lectures I am giving to our R&D organization related to that subject they are coming there and they are delivering and 5-6 lectures we are giving to industry this is in a classroom in a classroom in a studio in a studio in a studio we are inviting say fundamental part voice engines are covered no and you take it yeah and you take it live session live session interactive interactive it is not just like NPDL because it is one way in our case it is two way alright and 14-15 even 11-12 centers simultaneously good good right so the basic part of that subject are covered then IT ICNN they are doing internal combustion I am inviting those professors there so what R&D they are doing in this subject they are covering and how this R&D is being implemented by the industry so 4-5 lectures in that particular course we are keeping from industry side same already good good so I think this is something we should go down what they are doing some module yes you are having distributed teachers somebody from IT there is from IT from industry for delivery yes yes yes we are combining that both subjects in such a way making them interesting the point that you are doing in that it goes beyond this the most I think it totally makes a note of that essentially use ICD for for covering whole technical collaborative point of collaborative teaching this is the excellent point where you can get teachers from across various places for special modules and and you can very good so industry also industry also industry also this is I think as a point we must say this is something that without the user it is significantly higher so I think the use of technology here makes a lot of sense where the teachers are also distributed students are also distributed excellent for user very good feedback online feedback they are getting from the teachers they are submitting their online feedback teachers are distributed and students are just want to add one thing here is what Dr. Punea is doing with the Google line down we at NITTR is doing with the ABU and we have roughly 75 to 80 remote centers there and we are using blended technology as the IIT Mumbai is and Kharagpur is using using Moodal now the problem what we are thinking is we train the teacher for using technology because we have given the task that under 6 then how can we go for the massive training strategy for massive training now if we take up that challenge that our teacher can train other teachers because professor conducted at workshop at NITTR where we set up our own hub ABU hub now the planning is that every university can have their own hub and from there they can go for the different training courses the problem again is if the teacher sit over there using ICT mode the lecture in the face-to-face communication is a different type of approach is required and using ICT is a different technology and a different approach is required say hands up or something is there anybody who can answer this this question cannot be asked my point is if you are going for the Moodal sort of thing the assignment preparation and the way you prepare yourself for ICT course is totally different so we can have some strategy for that I don't know how can we go for this type of training this using preparing our teacher to use ICT as a platform to deliver lectures misusing online hang out or a view or any one method this was very easy so what some now I think this is this clearly one place for and also let me just close this they have used Google Hangout and other things but this clearly looks like good news of technology to collaborate both for teachers both for this and very difficult if using real time you can go internet base he is using internet base I think this if you can go down with something you can suggest I have with him one thing because there is like teachers are teaching obviously the teachers they are distributed and they are listening to hands up or something what he was saying the problem is that whenever you want to take some assignments in Moodal there is a lot of disinterest among teachers that's what we had also felt so how can that's the very good point what he pointed out assignments that you want to give to teachers yes yes and how do you have them do the assignments yes yes because that's what we require that's what is is required because we need to give assignments so that they it's whatever has been taught whether they have understood it properly second thing is disillusion if you are delivering if you are delivering to ICT Mood maybe at a time 20,000 teachers are there now in contact Mood you are giving certificates for attending the courses you use you just assignment are there you check the assignments and then then you certify them okay but in this in ICT Mood you cannot say that this particular person has really being certified for being acquiring knowledge so how to test that knowledge that is that is but why can't you grant why can't you assign a module to them which they should teach in the ICT Mood to a group of children to a group of students and get the students access my students feedback feedback feedback so they can do it their respective colleges can do that just because you are teaching teachers across but they need certificate from us so how they you can also be part of the student who is observing how they are using ICT to deliver the lectures take the feedback from the students and also give your own points so the challenge is there this is a suggestion but the two challenges that they have pointed out assignment and this thing but I want to also come back let it not become a teacher's training I thought we first also we are also teachers not always students of how to do teaching we are also teachers I think we need to really learn how to do better with that so let's also have some discussion so one more thing there we can use ICT to reach out to the diverse kind of learners in a classroom because we have multiple channels information can be disseminated you know visual intelligences auditory skills there are different learning styles I think we should there is a host of different learning styles and as has been implemented the lecture based models so we one kind of intuitive type of learners it does not I mean I don't want to get into all that I am studying all that so I am a little bit up on it but that is actually a huge possibility if we use the technology properly for addressing different types of learning styles that's why in 6 to 9 minutes input is very important where at the strategic moment we have to use the video and then you are able to use it but before you can go as teachers you can go there we need to even we need to we need to understand that there are many which I have most of us are studying so that's and another thing for my last thing I think so we talk about 21st century skills we talk about you know moving up from the our knowledge and understanding aspect from Bloom's taxonomy I think technology allows us to do so much more whether it's synthesizing information or analyzing inputs and bringing it together and then publishing it in an e-format which whether it's a blog or a website or a digital portfolio or videos etc for students I mean teachers really sort of start practicing themselves I mean develop 21st century skills in students using ICT and that's how a teacher can actually sort of result in learning effectiveness where we talk about engineers not ready to you know sort of enter in the job market so we can create those kind of learners and that is possible through technology also so sort of teach better skills better listening through technology the process of learning like we were talking in the morning a doctor who spoke about different processing abilities information processing activities so what we are saying is that we don't need to depend on pushing for example assessing students on memory and recall you know we can raise up that and technology allows us to do that for example if we ask right now somebody to search information synthesize what we are doing together and then publish it we can do it right now we can create actually as of now the current state of technology can do low levels of room and not high levels that's what research challenges do so essay for example they now keep building so technology will let you do multiple choice simple recall answers are much easier to check with technology but then we have to create the learning engagement which does not force them to recall answers but to do something high so that's where the teachers work simulations games alright so so ok I will put this as there is a possibility of you should just put that down there is a certain that there is different alternatives possible alternative styles mixtures for lecture hour if I don't know that's not exactly what you said but given that we will all have lecture hours technology allows us to use the lecture hour in multiple ways while still achieving and maybe achieving better through somebody's gains through simulation through interactivity whatever else I think that certainly in the technology would allow for alternative styles of loosely I'm calling lecturing but it needn't be just lecturing clickers was mentioned in that which is also part you can do it makes technology allows lecturing to get more active yes sir just a point sir I mean this I think we all understand by ICT and by technology I think most of the discussion around here is that we need technology I think if we can just come back and address question and only ask for observation around the question because I think we all are talking about that ICT will change things we are taking it for granted that ICT will change things alright but the idea is how so so I think I think I think I think three years back you know I cannot imagine even having a discussion like this ICT was a taboo mention ICT both at the level of policy there was very little acceptance definitely at the level of teaching community there was ICT is good but there is different ways where difficulty that is why it has not been propagated subjectly well policy is good but implementation stage there are so many difficulties that's what how do we do it because we are going with an assumption that we have good content research is okay assessment is okay everything is okay how do we do it this seventh question which is listed here I think we should discuss this more because just now Professor B&N said that average age in particularly old institutes is 45-50 and those people are going to retire in next 10-15 years but they have taught for 20 years with blackboard type of teaching how should we motivate them to adopt this technology they are not ready to they have become dead they have become rotten they don't want to go for this kind of thing so how I mean that's that's the major challenge and if we have to in the institutes if we can just sorry if we just suggest one or two things for both the category distinct teachers and new teachers so that at least we have some points for discussion here okay as a suggestion discuss you also want to raise the question new teachers existing teachers existing teachers how effectively get them get them on ICT effectively effectively so they use it for for improved education in their classroom same thing we as we propose that is that is the question number 5, 6, 7 whatever we discuss yeah this is the same idea we have the same idea if it is new teacher if it is only with the qualification and tag and something yeah no it's not a teacher that's why that's why the former training for 2, 3 months we have already come out with that right for existing teacher we can also motivate with the some of the thing so that they can going for some training sort of thing was something so that they can they can start using some of the cases studies role play we can go for Professor Kannan I think it is the mind set it doesn't matter I am I am 60 years old but I can go about ICT it is mind set I think it is important first thing we need to tell the teachers it's okay to say I don't know in the classroom I want to add add to him the feedback which I was saying in the beginning of this like the most of the teachers come in the age group of 25 to 35 years so that's what the feedback which we have got our country yeah yeah so what about the teachers who are actually 45 to they don't want to 65 years they don't want to change I mean teaching like a teacher may not become a good online teacher that is a fact yeah by the way because if you have used technology please use some doesn't we understand what is an online teacher I don't actually to me that is the first question I am still a teacher I get three hours a week to give deliver certain course in the semester I still am actually not clear of the answer to the question how I use this range of tools available to do my job better consuming less time and reach out to the student better I still actually don't have an answer to if I have an answer then I say well maybe she can say hey look you are old why don't you know I'll tell you how to do or I can tell somebody older to me can I