 This is the build OGM call for Tuesday, December 7th, 2021, sorry, and I was just talking about an upcoming call with Gerald Davis for Weaving the World. Go ahead, Mark. My question was going to be, what do we call this call? It's still build OGM, but tomorrow is no longer Generative Commons, it's Weaving the World. Tomorrow's morning's call is now the Weaving the World Operations call, exactly. Yeah, and so there we're going to talk details. Pete and Stacey and I have been in conversation about he is writing some automation so that the steps from, hey, we just finished a Zoom call to look at this pretty page for the episode, and it's got a transcript, and it's got pointers to recordings and all that, so that that actually happens as automatically as possible. And at this point, it's going to still take a whole lot of manual interruptions. To carry stuff from one task to the other, but we're trying to synchronize up so that his automation meshes with my work, meshes with possibly hiring somebody to do some video editing or some audio editing or something like that, because we don't know how much work is in each stage yet. Hi, Hank. Hi, hi, hi. And Happy Pearl Harbor Day, if that's the appropriate term I don't know that Happy's used a lot, but yes, indeed. Go ahead, Stacey. Can you hear me well? Yes. It's a little bit broken up, but we hear you just fine. Okay, so after looking at the one page, Weaving the World and being reminded of what's happening under the surface, I was thinking that what about if we invited people to contribute, when I'm talking about specifically people that do mapping. If we invited them to use whatever tool they're comfortable with to map the call in real time, they'll like to be there for the call and be taking notes and doing what they're doing as a way to include more people and then just see how that, even if it's just a one-time thing, have people doing it the different ways. And then at the end, when we put the call up, we can put the different graphic interpretations up. So can you easily do that? And that's completely the intention for the composting calls, for the second calls. I was trying to make this first recording as simple as possible, therefore not include other people and kind of make it just Daryl and me, but it's very tempting to do exactly what you said. But what you said is precisely in the invitation for the composting call. It's like, hey, there's this great conversation with a guy named Daryl Davis. Anybody, anybody with any mapping tools who'd like to come and map this, please join now. And we're going to do this together live and after and then contribute to this. And then all of those artifacts will also be on the episode page, which is one of the things that I hope distinguishes a Weaving the World episode from other normal things. Does that make sense? The other thing that I Yes, it does. But I just want to add, I think we had discussed this in another call, the idea of having a few people at least be able to show up adds to that personal connection. Because now you have, you know, let's say there's six people that show up, they're actually meeting the guest, which is very different than just watching. And also they don't have to go watch an episode afterward on their own time. They actually were in the conversation. That makes total sense to me. So what I could do is say, hey, if I could put out a call to all OGM mappers, anybody who would like to map this conversation, please, you know, our SVP, and I can bring them back, that would work. Mark, any strong feelings either way? Something slightly connected strong feelings aside, also kind of a call for a little bit of assistance. I am having the time of your life idea, map, mem x, intelligence augmentation meetup at the Internet Archive on Saturday the 18th, I mean, two and five. Building a second brain is going to be there and basically thinks that he's going to have about 100 people show up for his kind of thing. In a virtual thing, right? This is not face-to-face. It is face-to-face. Holy crap. Yes. Last Saturday was the foresight vision weekend, 2021, and there were 300 people there. And they had swabs that you put up your nose and put in the little five-minute test, who knows how good it is, but better than nothing. And that was kind of an interesting mass behavior, which, of course, none of us have ever seen before. But certainly, the people here in San Francisco, like Bob Horn and Rikipa, I have a block remembering her name. Eileen Clegg? No, no, no. Just guessing. Sounds like. I'll come up with it later. Sophie, something? Sophie's choice? No. I'd buy Sophie. That's okay. She's probably in your MX. I'm looking. Oh, okay. But it's not. It's not Sophia. It's not Sophie. It's some other name. But one of the people who's doing the large mapping project based here in San Francisco, and I can't remember it. But I want to know. It'll come to you. You do know her. Yes. But basically, if there's a lot of people kind of breaking it up into those three areas, augmentation, mapping, mimics. But I'm hoping to introduce OGM at the least. And then perhaps I'm not sure exactly how to break things up. But 10 minutes for introduction, five minutes for questions might be short. Could be 10 and 10, 20 minutes for people. But certainly having a Zoom guest, Jerry, if you're interested. Yeah, that could work well. And the question would be, you know, trying to find out people who are doing mapping of their own of their encounters with media in Rome or obsidian or idea pad or whatever basically contribute. Cool. So that's on the 18th in the afternoon. Yes. San Francisco time face to face. That sounds very cool. And I do you know or remember that I'm the guest today? This Friday's archive launch? I was not told. Oh, okay. So I'm, you know, I'll be doing what Margaret did last week. Was it last week or week before? I think it was a week before. Yeah, I think it was a week before too. So I'll do 20 minutes worth of brain and OGM, just to sort of talk about it, because I'm just I'm just really interested in how what OGM is trying to get done layers into the kinds of work you were talking about that the archive would like to do. So so if you want to think about that as well, I think it would be it would be nice to coordinate a little bit so that you can offer some depth into, you know, what you smelled over here. Yeah, be happy to. Cool. Cool. Cool. You were talking about Darryl Davis, you're going to go on to the next one. Yes, Stacey and I, and also Stacy said was encouraging us to invite more people to the actual call on Thursday, which and if Darryl replies quickly, I can easily put an, you know, an all points bulletin out on OPB, on OGM, sorry, Oregon Public Broadcasting, OPB, interesting, and do that. So, and also I think it depends a little bit on what Darryl's comfortable with, but I'm sure he's comfortable with most anything given how brave I think he is for the work he's done. Yeah, although, although it's really interesting, a girlfriend long ago worked with authors and wound up working a little bit with Maya Angelou, who it turns out was like really kind of hard customer to work with and micromanaged everything about her appearances. And my take after the fact like in retrospect is that she was just managing because so many things had gone wrong over time because she was Maya Angelou and a huge character that she made sure every little detail went the way she knew it needed to go. And that was just the work she had to put in to not be taken advantage of to not have things get hijacked and not whatever, I don't know. But, but she was just like, you know, for a thorny client to have come in and do stuff. I have a listener and also a writer. Yeah, a recent podcast. Let's see who it was. Shermer. And I can't find it in the history. But basically, somebody named Shermer who does skeptics, something interviewing somebody who does psychological studies and basically saying that any competent journalist can make somebody look like a hero or a villain. Yeah, that's just totally true. And that struck me as Michael, Michael Shermer. Michael Shermer, thank you. Yeah, struck me as fantastically interesting where it comes to questions of choice and aesthetics. Yeah. So my undergraduate is an econometrics, which I refer to as how to lie with numbers, because with a little bit of econometrics training, I realized you give me a data set and then you give me what story you want to tell. And I can eliminate outliers, change the access, do whatever to probably tell your story. Right. So so that gave me really nice skeptical lens for when I see written articles that refer to numbers. I'm like, oh, let's just pause for a second, see what they've done here. And if the axis doesn't go down to zero, I'm like, really, some really brutally simple sort of stuff. How to lie with statistics. Exactly. Lies, damned lies and statistics. That's the title of a book. Hank, do you have any strong feelings about weaving the world early episodes being just me and the interviewee or inviting more people into it? Yeah, actually, since you've developed the idea in this way, within a composting session with a lot of different people, I would like to see if this works. You know, you and the person that you're speaking with in a dialogue in a conversation. And if you do it twice, okay, might work one time, might not work another time. Try the third time incorporating what you've learned. And if that's not satisfactory, use another idea, for example, Stacy's idea. So you're saying keep the first interview just to the two people. That's what I'm saying, because that's your conception of it. That was just a pragmatic step to do the simplest thing that could possibly work. That was where I was aiming. It was like, let's keep this as simple, let's do as few moving parts and as little embellishment as possible so that we get the whole thing sort of from start to finish done. As you know, I love group calls and I have no trouble sort of facilitating and keeping people at bay and whatever else. Stacy, go ahead. I was going to say the other people invited don't have to be speakers. They could just be present, you know, they have five minutes before, you know, they're there five minutes before the call or maybe after the call, there's like five minutes where the recording stops and they just make, you know, make their readings. Or I can also give them space for the end of the call to ask questions. Right. I just think it's so important since we're talking about collaboration, you know, we're talking about mycelium and all this, that at every turn we want to that there'd be more fungal varieties for new connections. Yeah, I like that a lot, Stacy. It makes a ton of sense to me. May I make another thought building on what I said before? I think what Stacy is saying is good. I agree with you. The other thing is I listen to lots of podcasts, see lots of video, YouTube interviews and a one-on-one that really works can be a very powerful thing. So while agreeing with Stacy, I'd like to see if you can create that special power that, you know, two people finding themselves and engaging like that. Well, I mean, just a thought. I like that a lot and also in my life and in particular in Zoom life the last couple years, I find I've had a lot of conversations where it's just a first meeting between me and someone. And at the end of the conversation, I'm like, God damn it, I wish I'd recorded that because it went beautifully and there was this really like lovely thing created between us. And it's the little aha moment that I refer to. Sometimes it's like, you know, there was we made something that neither of us knew before from sharing knowledge and all that that little thing is what I'm trying to bottle. And the moment you turn it into a show and start to record it and all that it changes the setting of it. So then then you have to recreate that moment somehow and ignore the cameras and sort of get there, which makes intimacy of like just two people a little bit better. But as Stacy is pointing out, like the mycelial aspects of this are really, really interesting and important. And the community side of it that I'm just one I'm just one one weaver using one particular weird tool. And what's interesting here is the confluence of our multiple weavers acting on this in, you know, together, I think that's really important. Cool. And let me describe the second the second call that's that's we're booking right now, which is with Jesse Engel. So Jesse runs a good works house out of Santa Monica, where just before pandemic, they kind of had a co housing kind of arrangement with people with good intentions to try to solve the world. And it was kind of because Santa Monica and Venice Beach and all that have a strong arts community. And there's a little bit of Hollywood, a little bit of techie and a little bit of woo woo kind of nearby. They kind of had a nice mix of people kind of coming through and then pandemic hits and it's like, Oh my God, we're running a we're running a collective living space. What do we do? So for a while, they sort of shut things down, then they started doing some virtual things well. And then they got into NFTs and the whole crypto world a bit. And and they're doing now. They're creating a good works dowel, where a piece of the money, they're sort of floating some some tokens to fund artists in Haiti in part. And so so there's a whole really interesting way in which they're trying to harness this new movement. And they're close to communities that are doing a lot of work in there and care a lot about it, but harness it for good is just like way too much NFT stuff is like just crazy and seems useless to me. And so so that's the second one that we're framing up and that's happening quickly because on the 15th, they're kind of launching this idea of the good work style. And we would like to do an interview and put it in the world as promotional material for them and as an episode of leaving the world for us. So that's the second one. And I'm on Discord. I've reopened a Discord client. Oh, good. So so Jesse just sent a note back saying 4 p.m. today. Cool. Mark, you're muted. Thank you. Is this Jesse Engel, the one I'm finding in Google research as well, senior research scientist? No, that's a different Jesse Engel. Okay. I don't believe he's ever had posted at Google. J E S S E E N G E L and GLE. GLE. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Sorry. I'm sure I don't need to remind you, but I just want you to keep in mind your constrictions with today. I know. So I'm expecting to get a new machine delivered hopefully by 1 p.m. and FedEx has been totally disappointing me. Like the app has been worthless. So if it doesn't derive by then, then I kind of have a problem, a logistics problem. But I think, I think if I force the issue by booking this, then it's just going to cause the machine to show up, right? Right. You could always put a note on the door to the FedEx guide. There is a note on the door. There's a note on the door at this very moment. It's like knock loud, both on calls. But thank you. Agreed. Cool. So any thoughts on those things? Certainly here in the Bay Area, there are a number of co-housing groups. The most interesting that I've encountered of many is the embassy network. And again, COVID just... Michael Turner before. Oh, there goes Michael. Michael. Same thing happened on this side. It's like I'm looking for the video and back. I start stalking. Anyway, I will post the embassy network's sort of URL, but they've kind of started these intentional groups, which are incredibly interesting. The most interesting to me is kind of like the second chance house for people coming out of San Quentin. And a number of different experiments in community that happened at the Red Vic. Unfortunately, bad things happened, including COVID. And they kind of had to shut that down. But Zarina, what's Zarina's last name? Agnew, I believe. Just put on so many incredibly interesting scientists and was trying to do the type of weaving the world in person and community without the backup of mapping. But basically, highfalutin, critical theory plus neurology plus... I got Terry Deacon to give a talk at one of the science talks. And I'll spell it out because it's difficult. She and her partner who was now at Oxford studying philosophy really were poking in some very interesting areas, especially when it came to kind of intentional hedonism. It was far out wacky, funny, learned. And to give back to them, I would love to see them at least have a chance to participate in something that's more online. And are you recommending I approach them and we do something together? Are you saying... I'm really interested in reaching out to other people who are busy doing mapping also and having them be other forces in this stream, basically adding to the mapping into the layers and building out in whatever way they are good at. They love to do. So this is hopefully the beginning of a bunch of different kinds of collaborations and eddies of information as we feed the fungus. That's certainly the idea. When you were talking about one-on-one interviews, it reminded me of my campfires and basically getting two people together. And that three-ness seemed to be an incredible sense of participation, which doesn't quite come across in a video. You kind of have to be there interacting in person, getting all the perilinguistic cues, how they dress, their posture. You know, they're smiling, things that you don't get in even a Zoom call, say. Makes sense. Yeah, but I will approach them. And yeah, I mean, connecting people together is part of what all of this is about and figuring out how connecting can have side effects that create a residue that's valuable for other folk. And I'll mute. I'm replying to Jesse Engel real quick, just so that he gets word from me. Cool. And thanks for the embassy link. So a piece of what's happening with Pete is that we are figuring out a workflow and he's done a sort of a schematic of some of the workflow and we're figuring out where the moving parts are and all that. It's for a simple project that's relatively complicated. So again, we're trying to figure out how many things. Oh, Zarina. Wow. Cool. Thank you. You're muted again. Just agreeing that it is a complicated name. Yeah. Cool name. Yeah, it is. And a very cool woman. There's no picture here, but Pete, I was just invoking your demon. And so look, just like that. I was just mentioning that we're working through the logistics of the workflow for the episodes of Leaving the World and what that looks like. And then meshing together human effort and automation as much as we can and seeing where that goes. And I think you just saw on Discord that Jesse and I will be on at 4 p.m. today. Yep. Cool. Can you, for those of us who've never used Discord and have attempted to avoid it. It's remarkably like Mattermost and Slash, except it includes voice chat and other sorts of things that I haven't really used much. Right? Is that right, Pete? Yeah. Is it suggested to listen in? I can easily not. That's... Well, it's much less like Clubhouse than it sounds like. I think he's asking about the meeting with Jesse. Oh, the meeting with Jesse. I'm happy not. Sorry. I don't know. I think Jesse would be fine. Yeah, we haven't been doing... We kind of shied away from fishbowl calls, I think. Okay. So probably this one is a small group recording. Yep. Cool. And Pete, we also talked about Gerald Davis and I'm coordinating with him to see if Thursday still works. If not, pick a better date next week or whatever. And then we talked a bit through, okay, what would make a call with Gerald Davis under the auspices of Weaving the World different from your average, interesting podcast interview. So we went into some of the weaving stuff and Stacey recommended very nicely and just sort of hung on it for a while, just inviting other mappers into the call right up front and not making it just me and Darryl, but making it sort of me, Darryl, and a few mappers and putting out an all-points bulletin to OGM and say, hey, mappers, if you'd like to take a swing at this, here's a way to do it. And also say that we're going to do the composting call after, where we get another swing at this. Cool. And that we sort of cleared all that business right when you stepped in. Do you have any things you want to talk about here about the process and the workflow and stuff like that, since this is build OGM? Real quick question. I'm not expecting to be on with you and just say either, unless you want me there. I think it'd be totally great if you wanted to be there, but I'm, yeah, I feel like it'll be a better call. We're old friends, I think it'll work fine as it is. Otherwise, so I guess I think that I'm hoping out of, I think I'm hoping for OGM, as it bumps a little bit into Good Work House, is to learn a little bit from them how to be a little bit more connected to the world, a little bit more art and culture connected to OGM, and a little bit more more of the ability to reach out to a bunch of people and say, let's crowd fund this, this good work that we're doing. So Good Work House is in a place where they can do that. They've got a few more people or they've got more connectivity to, you know, their circles reach out a couple layers and get bigger than OGM circles. So I wish that, I wish OGM were like that more. We don't have or do a lot of arts things like sort of period. I think we have people who are interested in arts, but we don't go into those conversations much. We don't do a lot of work there. The other, you know, they have the advantage that they have a huge IRL component. So it's easier to nudge art into that kind of thing. You know, it's like, oh, look, we're doing the meetup and we decorated the walls. You know, there's people put up art on the walls. We're doing a meetup and by the way, we invited some live music this time, you know, that kind of stuff. So it's a little bit harder for us to kind of do it organically, I think. But I also think it's an important thing that we, OGM is a little bit like a walking brain instead of, you know, the whole human that sings and dances and plays. Yeah, exactly. And there are other events I attend sometimes that start with the guitarist playing a song or, you know, other sorts of things. And we're not taking advantage of that part of our of our beings much at all. We have a little bit of time, but since the pandemic, Brewster started every meeting at the Internet Archive with a musician or poet and giving them a stipend of about a hundred bucks for 10 minutes of play and the range has been absolutely incredible. Their last Friday was a Persian musician, I believe, playing the Ood or something like that. It was just incredible. That's lovely. Also very simple thing for Rex, which I started in 2010, every Rex meeting I would start with a poem. And that caused me to read a tremendous amount more poetry and find a whole bunch of delicious poems. And I would never pick up, I would, I don't think I ever read just excerpts of long poems, of epic poems or longer poems. But but I would, you know, so the size was a bit of a constraint, but it was just a delicious thing. And one time we had a guest with us who was really good at reading poetry. And he said, mind if I do this? And he stepped in and gave and gave like a great reading. I'm like, oh, man, that was awesome. So even even just a little bit of poetry sets a I'm reminded of some online space, I'm forgetting which one anymore years ago in the days when you dialed up and your log basically scrolled past you. And it was an online space for when you entered, there was a banner that went across the page that said, please take a moment and send to yourself before entering here. And that's all it did. It didn't it didn't lock up your keyboard. It didn't, you know, there was there was no built in pause or anything. It just asked you to send it yourself. But it created like a little like a little liminal threshold where as you entered the space, it was a little bit more special and you'd be a little a little bit more mindful. So sometimes really tiny markers do a lot of work and work really well. Stacey. Yeah, I was just going to say, you know, I agree, like, you know, the poetry and how it sets the mood and the music. But I just want to add that when you're actually with musicians or artists, there's something about the real world connections, you will have the most diverse group that you could imagine. You know, I mean, I go I know bands that some of them are lawyers, some of them are like unemployed scraping by, but they're all working together. And that's a function of being creators in that sense. So just, you know, that's the that's like when like Pete, they do they do have an advantage other than, you know, the real world, just in general, just the type of people that wind up being connected to each other. Yeah. Pete and I originally met through a common friend, David Eisenberg, who held an annual event for telecom geeks, and always invited artists to be artists in residence in residence during the entire event. And some of them were I mean, a lot all of them were excellent because his other passion, besides being a geek, a telecom geek is his music and he hosts people through his home in Woods Hole constantly. And has been a lifeline, I think for a lot of artists during lockdown, doing kind of the same thing in zooms and a little bit at face to face as things got a little bit better. But but some of those artists were fantastic. And one of them was really good with harmonicas, and disassembled his harmonicas for us and basically showed us how everything works and all the you know, all the little how you tune them, what you do to make your harmonica make notes, it's not supposed to make all that kind of stuff. He was just brilliant. And he was he was pretty geeky in sort of that sense as well. So so you get to know these people pretty well. So I'm going to just put out my my wish for the future one day I want to see an OGM band. And I want to hear Pete playing in it because I know that's a passion you have, you know, like a softball team, except instead of bands that I'm putting it out to the universe. I like that. And you're reminding me, in Argentina, there was an obscure band called Le Lucier, Wikipedia page, here we go. So and I visited my dad in Argentina in 1979 for half a summer, I think, and he got us tickets and we went to see Le Lucier. And these guys basically started as music students in a at an Argentine university. And they began doing home built instruments. So they invented the tubofono acrílico chromatico, basically the acrílic tube that that is is a chromatic instrument. And they made a whole bunch of homebrew instruments. Then they invented the character Johann Sebastian Mastropiero, which I who I put here, who is obviously meant to be in the line of Johann Sebastian Bach. But then they created stories and they had this narrator with a booming voice, and they created these hilarious stories about the adventures of Mastropiero, who was basically an ignoramus with no talent. And then they would break into songs of different kinds and some of which I have here, I'll show this link in our chat in a sec. But they were just brilliant and really fun. And this is they were there in a time when bad shit was going down in Argentina. So I think they provided some relief in some sense. But there was there was one where they they described a march, basically like a military procession on some festival day. And they described the ranks of everything else. And then in the middle of the marks surrounded by guards are the last Mapuches, basically still alive, who are the native inhabitants of Patagonia, right? And so there's there's like every piece of the army surrounding this poor band of Mapuches in the middle. So so they were they were political and ironic. But I think they had limits for what they could do back in the day. All right. What other although jammy things are sort of in our heads right now? Because if we don't have any other any other moving parts to do, maybe we fold our calm. Kind of probably a little bit off topic, but maybe not entirely. I ran into my first serious air table problem last night. I've got a client I'm doing some air table work for and part of that air table work. I've got a script that creates a fancy set of tables. And last night it just broke. You know, it's been working fine for months and it just catches errors. And so creating a table or creating a fields and tables throws an error. Really frustrating. This was late last night. So I sent an email and got an auto response and says, well, back me back at you in an hour. And it actually took a little bit longer than an hour. But some nice person Aaron wrote back this morning and said, wow, I've repeated, you know, I've replicated it on my machine and I've sent it over to engineering. And by the way, did you think of this work around, which I hadn't? And so it's clumsy and clunky and stuff and took some engineering to get the work around installed, but the work around is working more or less. I assume they've got a pretty good community online of people solving problems. Yeah, they've got it. It's actually running a discourse. Which I was going to ask, yeah, it's probably on discourse or discourse. It's fun when you know discourse and the interface because if you don't, it's a little clunky. But once you do, then it's like, oh, I know why this or which thing to reply. So I posted a thing last night. I posted the same thing to the community and to tech support and got a response a few hours later from somebody who said, yeah, we've got that problem and this other one. And I checked on Twitter and there's somebody with the other problem. So it's a weird, I thought the highest of air table and they're still pretty, they're still way up there, but it's the kind of bug that you ship that you shouldn't ship. Maybe they moved something in the code. They changed, you know, the other problem is it's when you create tables or fields, they don't pick up right away. They don't exist. The system doesn't think they exist. So if you go to use them, they're not there until you refresh the page, which of course, that's not something you do in a script. So yeah, it's like, you know, at least thank goodness it's not data loss or something like that. Yeah. So shaking your confidence in the tool. A little bit, except for Erin, I was pleasantly surprised with Erin because she really went above and beyond to, you know, front-line support tech shouldn't have come up with the work around she did. Cool. Yeah, thank you. Anyone else with anything relevant or questions about that? I was actually looking for a poem. Wow, love that. Oh, there we go. I kind of find all these things. I kind of lose them because I stopped being a poet. That was a sad sentence. No, I think calling oneself a former poet is much more poetic than actually self-identified poets. But it also means that you're not a poet, which is a loss in the world. Yeah. It is more poetic, I guess. But can you ever be a former poet? I don't know. Allow me. Some time ago, I was riding a bus downtown and came across a large green field with tiny blue flowers. I'm surprised to be in this meadow between all these trees. Somewhere, past leaves branching over my head, a thin river trickles by. I'll be walking through the dew, getting my fingers wet from the tops of the flowers when I get off the bus. That's beautiful. Yeah, thank you. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you. I just put a link in boop, boop. So for Rax, I was doing a poem with meetings, and here are the poems that I read. Here are the poems that I did read. Democracy by Dorian Lowe, Eden then and now, Dutch, Dusting, Dreamwood, these are all poems, each of which is connected to the poet, of course, so Forrest Hammer. Here's the call that I read that poem on. I would make that link as well, which was kind of fun. Here's a bunch of other poems by Forrest Hammer, who is a psychologist, and I'm totally forgetting about this. Next to poems read in Rax is poems for Rax, and these were poems that I had not yet read in the group, and as I read them, I would sort of move them over. Oh, come on, little brain. You're not displaying them. There's a lot of poems here. Oh, okay. I was wondering about that. Wow, that's fascinating. I think I need to reboot my brain because there's a whole bunch of material that just didn't display. Let's try that again. Come back, make that call. Yes, poems for Rax. So this is just A through C. You can see the scroll bar down here. So these are all, my filter for poems for Rax or read in Rax was, would this carry to start a meeting? Is it sort of in the right size range, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera? So I'll put links to, I just put a link to one of these thoughts in my brain, and these are like fun. These are, and poem a day is fantastic. There's a couple poem apps. Poetry.com has a poetry app that's beautiful, that kind of randomizes. They've tagged up all the poems by theme and content. So if you want a sad poem about summer, you can kind of set the little whistle, and it'll show you a bunch of poems that resonate for that theme and so forth. It's really cool. One other thing is I was writing in hyperknowledge the other day, and reading one of my favorite, rereading one of my favorite books called The Poetics of Mine by UC Berkeley professor, basically arguing that we give too much credit to non-figurative thought that basically language is primarily metaphor and the mind has a basic poetic structure. And so I have been intending to create a poetics aspect or poetics channel within Mattermost and kind of wondering, you know, basically what are the poetics of mapping, the poetics of augmented intelligence, the poetics of intelligence, you know, my central research theme. Here I'm reading Problems of Art, Susan K. Langer, morning, is, thank you, Jerry, that's the book exactly. Gibbs is the author. Yeah, Gibbs. And very interesting man, Gibbs. Raymond Gibbs, if I remember correctly. But basically, what are the aesthetics of knowing? And I was reading from, oh, Bateson's second book of essays, A Sacred Unity this morning as well, where he really is talking about, you know, the possibilities of when we are thinking about the conscious, how adaptation is tied to conscious purpose, if there's kind of an aesthetic determinism that goes anywhere from the alpha member of a group being more beautiful, you know, having better boots, you know, who knows, to, you know, just not exactly knowing what aesthetic rules are when it comes to the sense that someone has a green thumb, they have a better ability to deal with complex and living systems than other people, and they kind of grok the ability to see the whole rather than have the immoral short-sightedness that's almost intentional to say, no, I only want to look at this one thing, everything else, no, we can't talk about that. And, you know, kind of the ecological damage that comes from that. Anyway, the questions of aesthetics are very central in what I'm trying to figure out. And it's not, you know, physics is much easier, or it feels much easier to me to basically have that kind of understanding that, as Bateson say, the pathology of the way we currently do science is, you know, just more comfortable. I just grew up with it. We all did, apparently. There you go. Thanks, Mark. Michael, you just stepped into the philosophical sort of end of our conversation. And we were just through a bunch of different kind of OGM-y business, but thinking about wrapping the call, and then we got into, sort of, we kind of got back into a theme that came early in the call, which was, how do we fold more art into our community and into our activities? So, whether that's being connected to local artists or other sorts of things. Good to see you. Yeah, how many former poets are there in OGM? We have a lot of good poets, actually. A lot of, like, Neil, who's gotten busy in the meantime, but he was reading poems for us. Michael, you were just saying something, sorry. Oh, I was just saying, I figured dropping in late was better than not being here at all, so that was all I was going to say. Oh, thank you. And thanks for being here. Thanks for the catch-up. Cool. Good. I think that's a lot of food for thought, and a lot of things for design. We've got places to go, and shall we wrap the call? Cool. Well, thank you all. More soon. Appreciate it. Thanks.