 Hats and Boy Muffin, and we're gonna talk to people who aren't vegan but love dogs. The circle of life. The circle of life? No, it came from the Lion King, so you're actually using the Lion King as a scientific source here. I care about why YouTube people, who are good people, still pay for animals to be stabbed and killed when you're against it. Yeah. That's the argument. No. And if that's the argument then I totally agree with you, it is a hypocrisy on a major scale. So it's dog lovers who aren't vegan are hypocrites, proved me wrong. Do you want to know the full extent of my argument? Yes. You go first. I know your name's Joey. Yeah, okay. I'll get you the full extent of my argument. When people love dogs they love them for specific reasons, okay? They have a personality, they're sentient, they understand that they feel pain and they don't like that a lot to look after the dogs and they have wants and desires and for those exact same reasons, why don't we extend those to the animals that are abused and killed and stabbed to death and chopped up into pieces on other's plates? So I'm saying if you love dogs and you destine these other animals who are inherently the same in all the ways that matter as dogs to a slaughterhouse to be chopped up and killed, I'm saying that you're a moral hypocrite. That's correct. Oh. You agree with that premise? To an extent. Okay. And how about you, because we've got two people here, do you agree or disagree? You know what? I'm going to say I'm disagreeing just because I was going to say dogs are man's best friend and you know, you don't really get that with cows and all that stuff. They're kind of more like, they're different. As we domesticate dogs, we sort of build more of a connection with them rather than other animals say cows or pigs that we eat. I guess a dog you could say is more of a household animal whereas you can't really have a cow as a pet really. You can't. You can't really have a cow as a pet, I would argue. I would say. You're saying you can't have a cow as a pet. Yeah, because I mean, it's a pretty big, it's a big thing. It's like a hassle but like a dog, like this little cute dog over there. You're saying it's impossible to? No, it's impossible to. It's not convenient as say a dog because a dog is sort of like a companion where I don't think I would really go up to a cow and pat it. I would still say that makes you a hypocrite because you're just deciding who's your friend and who's not and then you're killing the one who's not your friend. Right. I'd still say you're a moral hypocrite, like that doesn't prove that wrong. I'd still say that because that's your opinion. How is it not? Like, so you're saying that because this cow is in your care, this dog is in your care and you've chosen this one to be your friend, anyone who's not your friend, who you don't consider your friend, you can murder. Do you choose your friends? Of course I do. But if they're not my friend, I wouldn't deny you of your rights and stab you to death and go, oh, well, he's not my friend or this animal's not my friend. I'd be a big fat hypocrite. My friend deserves rights. You're not my friend. That person's not my friend. Never met him before in my life. Kill them. Take their rights away. You know, a burger. How long have you been vegan? Are you vegan? I'm assuming you're vegan. I've been vegan for six years. All right. So, do you vegan based on animal rights or...? You can only be vegan for animal rights. Right. There's people who are vegan for health reasons. Well, they're not looking at the definition of vegan. It's to do with the exploitation and cruelty to animals as far as practically possible. So, you can't be vegan. Is that a definition of vegan? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, you can be plant based for the environment, but you can still wear leather shoes. I'm plant based for the environment. I try and do plant based four times a week. Because you can still participate in things that exploit and kill animals while looking after the environment, can't you? Yeah. You can go spearfishing and you can wear a leather jacket and, you know, which lasts longer and... You know? So, you wouldn't be a vegan. A vegan is, you know, it's to do with animal rights only. Yeah, right. I see where you're coming from. What made you become a vegan? Because I didn't want to be an animal abusing hypocrite anymore. Right. You wake up to that. You wake up on the wrong side of the bed and go, you know what? This makes me... I've woken up today, I've seen myself in the mirror and I've gone... Do you want to know my story? Do you not only need leather products or anything like that? No. No, because I wouldn't wear your skin if you were killed and murdered. I'd say that's really weird. And we've got dogs over here too, like... Muffin. Sorry. Muffin's very cute. I wouldn't wear a muffin bag. No, I wouldn't either. She's very cute. He's cute. But let me tell you my story. I've been in prison for over four many years in a drug addict and then I went to prison for firearms offences. I had a gun down my trousers trying to protect myself and in prison I got sober. Okay. And part of my sobriety was like I started thinking about all the things I'd done in my life and I was like, well, you know, I'd hurt people. I'd been doing all these things. I'd been involved with the wrong people and I kind of started to analyze my own morality for the first time. Okay. And then when I got released from prison, I'd heard about the plant-based diet in terms of health, in terms of juice fasting and it's really good, the life-giving plants. But I also thought about the hypocrisy of animal rights activists saying save the whales while they had a steak on their plate. Yeah. And I'm all for being, I don't want to be a hypocrite. So I had a conversation with my mum telling her to quit smoking and she said, well, look at you. Like there's a lot of people, things people do that they don't change. They're bad. And I looked at myself and part of that was going, hey, I'm an animal abusing hypocrite. I need to change. In the same way, though, do you believe that someone who's, say, vegetarian but still eats eggs, would that be better than someone who eats, say, meat? You'll have to ask the egg-laying hens who are enslaved and murdered. I'm pointing that question to you, though, not to the hens. From the animal's point of view, absolutely not. That's an injustice and no injustice should be selective or reduced, okay? You're either against animal abuse across the board. You don't pick and choose which animals because that's exactly what we do with dogs and pigs. In the same way, if someone was to, say, injure someone and then on another level murder someone, they go to court, they go to jail for different periods of time. Someone who's vegetarian but still eats eggs, but someone who's completely vegan, I believe that person still has a moral compass in some way, more so than a person who eats meat on a daily basis. Let me just put it like this. Let's just say... You have to start somewhere. I understand what you're saying. No one's going... The whole world isn't going to turn vegan overnight. They didn't peel... Can I respond to your point for a sec? Because the egg industry is no different to the meat industry, okay? So they're the same type of industry. They're enslaving these... What happens in the egg industry? A hatchery. Can I just... Can I show you some graphic footage? For sure. It's going to be graphic, all right? Oh, wow. That's all right. So let me just get this here. I'll show you the egg industry so I don't... This is standard practice in Australia. So they impregnate the chooks just for the purpose of their exploitation. Well, there's parent breeder hens out that the eggs will come from. The hen layers will come from these parent breeding sheds. So they're fertilized eggs and then they'll go to a hatchery. Then at the hatchery, they'll hatch and they'll be separated into male and female because they don't need male hens in the male chickens in the hen... In the egg laying industry. They don't lay eggs, do they? Ah, so they just get rid of them. So I'll show you how they get rid of them. Let's go to the egg part. How do you think they get rid of these mouths? Obviously, they're going to slaughter them. They're little. They're only baby chicks. It's their first day of life. Strangle them. Hang them up by a thread and spank them to death. No, they're innocent little baby chicks. Let's have a look. Where's the eggs? Shoot them. That's the slaughterhouse. These are the victims. Eggs, here we go. This is down, by the way. So you're saying, like, if they're just supporting this industry, then, you know, they're doing something that's better. To a certain extent. So they're separating them into... Wait a sec. We'll just... We'll just... They're separating them into male and female, okay? Right. They go to this conveyor belt. This is their first day of life. They've just hatched. That's what the egg industry does for people who want to eat eggs. Now, what am I supposed to say to that person? Yeah, good work, mate. Pat, you're on the back? Hell no. That's animal abuse. That's absolutely... RSPCA approved. RSPCA approved. Why do we have to kill the chickens? I would argue... They kill the males because they don't... So why can't they just put them in, like, for breeding or something? For an economic standpoint, they can't really do that primary to hatch eggs. These specific breed is for egg laying. They don't grow them for flesh. They don't grow fast enough. They're not like the 42-day-old chickens that you eat that grow in six weeks. These are different. These are specifically for egg laying. So they just chuck them in a blender. And that's what you pay for when you eat eggs. We can talk about the other industries like... This is pigs here. We can talk about the gas chamber stunning. This was RSPCA approved till activists went in there and left cameras here. This is how they bullshit you. They're struggling for their last breath. This is CO2 gas stunning. This was considered the most humane method for stunning pigs. Then they take them out of here and they stab them in the throat. Now, what sort of position do you take on injustice like this? I mean... Of course you're not going to, you know, agree with this kind of stuff. But it's hidden. So people who are eating meat, I guess, aren't seeing this shit. And what would you like to say about that? I mean, I would argue that, especially that method, is obviously like the most inhumane way to do it. This is what they were telling us is the most humane. They fell asleep gently. We have to expose these places. Industry won't. So like... I mean, I guess you could say like... Obviously that is like the most inhumane way to do it. This is standard, bro. This is where you're getting your meat and dairy from. So right now, this is what you're paying for. You can't really close down the whole meat industry, I guess. Why not? I mean, because look how many people eat meat, like at least nights when the people here... How many people add slaves back in the days? We shut that down. Yeah, I mean, but like I guess what you could say like hypothetically, like the meat industry is never really going to like end, I guess. But... Why not? Wait a second. If more people like you see this, like you said it's hidden from people. Yeah. Just because it's hidden from you, doesn't mean that you're not causing a massive impact to these animals. And when someone like me goes, hey, you're an animal abusing hypocrite. If you care about animal rights or animals at all and you're paying for them to be in this place, then people go, well, explain. And I'll show them this. What are they going to do? They're going to keep paying for this? Not really. They might. Some people do, but I can't. You guys seem like you've got your head screwed on and you've got a compassion in your heart. Yeah. No, for sure. I mean... So you say you're a dog lover. I love dogs. If anyone touched my dog, have you seen the thread, the comments thread, when there's a dog abuse video on Facebook? Kill them. Have you seen that cat? Don't fuck with cats. Kill them. They want to kill this person, right? Now, what if an activist like me said, oh, someone fucked with a pig, kill them? That'd be like militant vegan at it again. What's the... That's hypocrisy. It is. It's hypocrisy. But I don't... I think in saying that, I don't think it's going to change. That's a practical argument. Now, saying it won't change. It took 400 years to abolish slavery in America. 400 years. Child slavery. Child slavery. Yeah, but it's sex slavery. But it's outlawed. This is legal slavery. Yeah. This is what I'm saying. Legal slavery. I guess you're right. Has the IRS PCA or Peter not said that you can't, you know, slaughter animals in humane ways? That's a welfare argument. Right. How do I kill you humanely? Right now, you want to live? How do I rob your life humanely? Look, there's laws against murder against people. There's... There should be laws against murder for animals, not humane ways to murder. Fair enough. I guess you're right. Bobby Carps. They don't produce milk in the dairy industry. You know, they get murdered. Yeah. I guess you... Look at this baby here. Yeah. Taken from their mother. You can't watch that? Do you drink dairy? No, I drink almond milk, actually. Do you eat cheese? Chocolate? Exactly. So this is what you're paying for. This is abuse you're paying for. I guess you're right. Saying if you're a dog lover and then you allow this, you're a bit of a hypocrite. But like... Look, this is exactly like a dog. Yeah. You're telling me that just because they're not your friend, this is okay? Like you said, they're not your companions? It's not okay. It's just like, I don't really see what... how we can make a change unless we get more people to see these videos. You can. You can't stop the child sex slavery like you were talking about, right? But you don't participate in it. You don't go buying disgusting child pornography. You don't support it. That's what I'm saying. You're consistent with that. You don't go out and abuse people or beat up whoever you want. You don't do it. So why don't you do... Why do you do this? Good point. So, okay. If me and Max were to go vegan, right? Yeah. I don't think... I don't think us... Okay. So... Appealed a futility? Multiple people stop investing in these sort of like... in industries. I still think that this shit would still go on. I'm saying that you said to me, slavery still exists. Yeah? Yeah. Does that mean we should... Oh, because it still exists and it's not gonna go away. We should just all participate in it still. This is your argument. No. You don't know. I'm saying why do you... I'm putting the onus on you two. Why not? Well, yeah. Well, after seeing this shit, I don't know. So it's not up to whether everyone else is going to, whether it's not gonna change. I don't give a fuck about that. I care about why you two people, who are good people, still pay for animals to be stabbed and killed when you're against it. Yeah. That's the argument. No. And then if that's the argument then I totally agree with you. It is a hypocrisy on a major scale. Yeah. But yeah. Okay. So if you leave here today, it's either you're a vegan or you're an animal-abusing hypocrite. Which one is it gonna be? I don't think I can commit to vegan, you know, instantly, but I'm definitely on the right track trying to eat plant-based, you know, a majority of the time. So just know why you're doing that journey. You're abusing animals and you're a hypocrite by your own moral standard. So that might motivate you further yourself. It's definitely motivating after seeing this. Yeah. I guess I'll have to agree as well. I mean, obviously today I'm not gonna leave and instantly go vegan, but like, I guess I'd be open to a bit of change in my diet and my way of living, I guess. Just about being morally consistent and, you know, don't be hypocritical when it comes to animal cruelty and like, I did not. Like, I'm not some softy who, you know, like, I'm not some hippie guy. Dude, I just think that that's fucked up. Like, people in the gang world, right, they were doing stuff wrong to each other. A lot of this shit was like, they did something wrong to me. Oh, these animals did nothing wrong to anyone. Who did a cow ever fuck over? A chicken. These are innocent beings and we treat them like worse than the worst criminals on Earth. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. It's a holocaust. Yeah. It's a holocaust, what we're doing to them. Yeah, you can say that, definitely. Slaughter or destruction on a mass cow. It's a holocaust. There's no other way to describe it. It is a holocaust. Yeah. So, alright. Appreciate it. My friends over here some more information so about vegan alternatives and things you can do. Thank you. Great combo. Thanks for sitting down, eh? Have a good one. Really good combo. Pretty smart kids. Good lads.