 Back in the day, the Paras were kind of a bit of a pariah in the army. They weren't particularly well liked by the rest of the army. They had an elitist attitude. Understandably so, because training was hard. There are no words I can use at this moment to describe my true feelings. I mean, amongst them, there were civilians. None to do with any dispute with anyone. And a party, a Roman Catholic. But it's hard, Chris, because you know the biggest weapon of these people or the club of which you and I are not members. His diversion tactics keep everybody occupied, keep worried, keep fear. I've got like the Guildford Four and all that sort of stuff and the hunger strikes and everything. One thing I'm sure it will not weaken the resolve of this government to put an end to this type of evil violence. John, how are you good, sir? I am fine, thank you for asking, Chris, and I trust you are the same. Oh, brother, it's absolutely wonderful to meet you. I've got like the Guildford Four and all that sort of stuff and the hunger strikes and everything. My first thought was, look, we've got to have a chat. We had a bit of a tumultuous year last year because the event you alluded to was the, well, is known as the old shop bombing. It's kind of been airbrushed largely from history, but the narration was that it was the reprisal attack for the events known as Bloody Sunday. And it was an attack on a garrison camp, a camp within the garrison old shop. Three weeks after Bloody Sunday, intended to target the particular unit involved. A very famous unit held in a high regard, the Parish Regiment. A regiment that you have great respect for, obviously, being a former Marine. They now work together a hell of a lot. But back in the day, the Paras were kind of a bit of a pariah in the army. They weren't particularly well liked by the rest of the army. They had an elitist attitude. Understandably so, because training was hard. Many people know what happened to Bloody Sunday. Obviously, there's two sides. One side says that they were fired upon and they returned fire. But ultimately, it came out that, you know, a bunch of protesters at Civil Rights March, their lives were ended that day. It had massive repercussions around the world for the Republican cause. And the fact that perhaps some people might say the fact that a reprisal attack was mounted with relative success, so surely afterwards, certainly raised a lot of questions for me. At the time, I was among the shy, my seventh birthday. And all I'd known was being raised within Parish Regiment garrisons, you know, going on different postings. And for me, the Parish Regiment was Superman. You know, he's my dad and my oldest brother. And the events took place three weeks after Bloody Sunday. There was apparently no security. I'm led to believe, and I've been told that the guard room log for that particular day went missing. There was no security. There was apparently no warning, although one of my brothers went to collect my mum's wages and couldn't get access to the building because he was told I had a bomb threat. And, you know, somebody had to let him eat and got mum's wages and went home. As I say, as a child, it didn't it didn't matter. I mean, on top of the confusion of understanding why you go to school one day, your mum's been murdered and you don't know why or how or whatever. So it's raised a lot of questions. And being realistic, Chris, it's 51 years later. There's a lot to be said for the fact that it was never it was never addressed during the Bloody Sunday inquiry. Now, if this was purported to be the reprisal attack, there should have been a nod to it. One of my brothers was very vocal in trying to get it addressed. Really get this, you know, wise note you mentioned in this and that was unsuccessful and it really ranked at him over a long period. The Bloody Sunday inquiry went on over 12 years. John, could you enlighten our friends at home? What because we've got youngsters watching that won't know what Bloody Sunday was or people that aren't familiar with the Northern Ireland troubles. Well, the troubles from my understanding go back way, way, way longer than than we acknowledge. It goes back 800 years or so. But recently that the recent period of trouble started in the late 60s. There was tensions between the Protestant loyalist community primarily and the Catholics who in numbers were in favour of Northern Ireland becoming part of Southern Ireland and being reunited to one country. Initially, the British government deployed security there to protect the Catholics from attacks from the Protestants. But as time wore on the animosity moved from by the Catholics from the Protestants who were potentially attacking them to having an issue with the government forces that were allegedly there to protect them. And that's how we know that the troubles became what we now remember. The IRA primarily taking on government forces, Protestants and Catholics fighting between themselves and a real mess for over 30 years and cost a lot of lives, damage a lot of lives and ended with peace talks as these things always do. But it just took everybody a long time to get there. And as we now know, the whole the whole process is probably on a little bit of a shaky ground recently. But yeah, that's that's Bloody Sunday was a civil rights march on it was 31st January 1971. And the Catholic stroke Republican community felt they weren't getting decent housing, they weren't getting job opportunities. And they were basically second class citizens and they organised a civil rights march back turned into a riot and the response from the armed forces was, yeah, it had repercussions. I mean, 14 people at the end of the day were dead. The repercussions, as I said, went around the world, basically increased support for the Republican cause and money and recruitment within Northern Ireland to Republican terrorist organisations. So it was a big own goal really for the British. I'm not denigrating the powers. I mean, you'd have to question why so soon after the Buddy Murphy incident, when one power revolved within another incident, not so well publicised, would you then bring them in as potential peacekeepers if in case things go pear shaped when that's going to obviously rile the Republican people. Just I'm just a synopsis for friends at home. Allegations were from the Republican side of things that the parrots had opened up unnecessarily and shot dead 14 innocent people. Yeah, obviously, obviously the parrots are going to say, no, we saw we were fired upon first to know exactly what happened. You'd obviously have to be there and even if you were, you probably still wouldn't know the full picture. And what I always say is it's war, folks. It's horrible. We got to stop having the wars. Then we won't have these, you know, debates or whatever they are. 51 years. The Catholics still feel that they haven't got justice, which which no doubt they they haven't. The truth is somewhere in the middle, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's often the case. Yeah, it's often the case. But this this for me, this came to light last year. It was the 50th anniversary. And I used to attend the Memorial Services, which were organized by the Parish Regiment Association. And my feeling personally was that it became a military celebration of the Parish Regiment, which, okay, you can understand that, but in the great scheme of things, only one serviceman was killed in the the car bomb. The remainder were five civilian waitresses and a semi-tide gardener. Unfortunately, I knew all the women, some better than others. My mom was was amongst them. And she was a single parent. She left behind three relative young boys plus an older boy that was already enlisted in the Parish Regiment following in our father's footsteps. And I had obviously had big repercussions, which which remain to this day. But attending the Memorial on the 50th year was important because it was I wanted to attend never, never go there again. It was I was going to draw the line under it. I accepted there are a lot of unanswered questions. There's there's not really a Memorial in place. There was a Memorial, an impromptu Memorial made of little concrete stump and a brass plaque, which was made by the other maintenance staff in the camp. So it was never officially given a Memorial and some people have been campaigning for that. So this year was the unveiling of a stone on which a Memorial will be built. That's only now because the land has been sold by the military and is in the hands of residential developers who were told of what happened there. And it was then themselves that said, well, we should commemorate that. We should have a Memorial Gardens and a Super Bowl Memorial. What I wanted to do was nobody that's directly involved was ever allowed to speak. There was just a guy, the next para and smashing fella who was a young Tom at the time and he gives his account of the events of the day. Could you tell us them, John, so people at home know, get a better idea of what we're talking about? Right, as I said before, my brother claims, he's no longer with us now, he claims that he went to the building on the Friday before the bombing on the 22nd of February, that was the following Tuesday to collect mum's wages. She'd been off work. She was experiencing depression because her and my old man had split up about a year or so before. She was old school. So it was a big deal for her. Ironically, a Catholic, very, very staunch Catholic. And he was not allowed to enter the officers mess, which is obviously, you know, where the officers will die when they have a room upstairs, maybe. And he was your dad was a para, was he? Yeah, he was a sergeant of the para. So they wasn't, he wasn't there at the time. He was stationed at the end of his career. He was coming to the end of his 22 years in the Paris. He was old at Arborville, which is the Remy training center, just teaching young recruits. So he wasn't there. Well, my other brother was on a, he was in the Paris, but he was on a, I think it was on a PTI course or something, not far from the camp. So a guy or somebody drove a car bomb into the garrison into the camp where 16 Airborne Brigade were stationed. Part of the car was unchallenged. There were no checkpoints, no fences, no roadblocks. Again, three weeks after Bloody Sunday. He parked the vehicle and presumed he was on a timer and he left, walks back into all shot and got a train back into London. You know, although there were no measures to try and prevent it, the guy was caught up with relatively shortly afterwards and he was a Protestant. Unlike the majority of people finding the Republican calls there tend to be Catholics. It was also more interestingly, he wanted a United Island under a socialist government. Now if you're old enough to cast your mind back and I'm not, but I do know history in 1971-72-73 before the IRA or the current or the most recent campaign came to fruition that the big bogeyman was communism. So you have to ask, well, okay, if this guy is put in prison or whatever, whether he was involved in this or not, who benefits? You know, did the British get rid of somebody who might be a thorn in the side? Because he was not a conventional sleeper. He was quite active in union activities in London where he lived and he was an outspoken socialist. I understand. So the pieces don't really, really fit. And again, I didn't serve. I didn't serve in Northern Ireland. Thankfully, I was not committed to the Marine side, but as an issue which wouldn't progress. Can we, I know this is a horrible thing to discuss, but I mean, how much explosives was in that vehicle? I think it was 50 pounds in a four-core scene. Okay. Well, it's Semtex or something? Or I'd know. No, it doesn't. It doesn't matter. It's only there's people out there who know this this technical stuff better than you and I. We used to measure it in the old days that if it was a fertilizer bomb, like a homemade explosive, you needed quite a lot for, you know, they used to use a lot and it obviously went boom. If it was Semtex, which was kind of industrially great manufactured, it was a small amount. Could really do a lot of damage, but this car just went went up. I'm guessing and your your mother, the other four women were walking past. I believe that they were actually having a cup of coffee in their kind of staff room on the other side of the wall from where the car was parked. I could be wrong, but I know that my mother was identified apparently by a piece of a scalp and a red hair. So the the bomb blast was quite profound. It was her role shot. I know that again, one of my brothers was at school and he heard it from my cut the miles away where he was at school. So a lot of everybody that was shot heard it. And as I say, it was the first bombing on the mainland of that period. Since probably after the Second World War, Edwardian side of the IRA had done a few things, but it was the first mainland bombing, which was even more puzzling to think that there was no it was not recognized. It's now blurred into into history. Did you get to hear of the bomb first and then to hear of of of your mother's death or was it the you know, did someone tell you at the same time? No, basically what happened, I was because of family circumstances, me and me and my two slightly older brothers were quite feral. I would sometimes not go to school, but I came home from school. The house was locked and there was nobody about, which was unusual. There's always somebody about. So I went next door and spent time with my neighbor's kids who were my age. And then my dad came walking down the back garden. I just I just made out his arm with an army uniform on and he talked to my neighbor, a woman, Deborah. And I heard a sobbing. No, it's still no idea what's going on. And the old man just walked into their living room where I was on the floor playing with the kids or whatever with my mates. He said, come on, go with your pack, we're going. So we went next door to our house where me, mum and my brothers were living. And the other brothers turned up. There's a lot of bleary eyes and a lot of mumbling, but nobody actually said anything in those packs and gear and went to my dad's house, which was in an adjacent garrison about 20 miles away. But then I saw the news on the TV as we were all sitting in the living room and I saw where mom worked with fixer cars everywhere. Curtains flapping in the wind. And again, still, I knew that's where she worked, but I didn't, I mean, I was seven, so I didn't know what had no idea what was going on. And it was only, it was only later that the full extent of what happened or the reason why mom was no longer there was the claim clearer. And I mean, you've already gone through a lot because your parents have separated, which is I think anyone that's been through that will know is it's different now back then. It wasn't managed well. Now it's quite normal. People get together and they split up and I'm sure it's not nice for the children. But back then it was sort of a rarity. And when it happened, your world was ripped apart because parents didn't know how to manage it appropriately. It was just we're splitting up. We're following up and you're right. Sorry to interject, Chris. You're right. But from that, from our point of view, with the benefit of, you know, maturity such as I have it, I understand that my dad was the product of a very disadvantage background, you know, the proper gear, Yorkshire villages, you know, borderline workhouse. So he was raised a certain way and he had to survive. And in his mind, he thought he was on a bound to raise his boys to face whatever life could throw it. There's no no room for lovey-dovey stuff. It was like the world was a shit place. You've got to be ready. Now that was quite cruel at the time, but as the older I get, I think Jesus Christ, he wasn't wrong. You know, he wasn't wrong. There's some bad stuff out there. But when mum and dad split up and he went to marry a younger woman for us, it was a relief because, you know, the house was going to potentially be a bit more normal, you know, not not. There was a lot of violence in the house that way. If you come from that background as my dad did and you joined the Paris Regiment, he was also a commandosier in the war and the army commandos before they were disbanded and the commando role was given exclusively to the war Marines and he couldn't adjust after the war. He won the Croix de Guerre as well, which was a French medal. And I think we just got to say that the there's still army commandos just for all the people that are leapt off their seats. No, no, of course, the army commandos are obviously doing the command of course and then serve with the Marines to give them support. But in those days, there was like number three army commandos. Yes, I've got you. So, yeah, he didn't settle down after the war. So he did it for the 22 years in the Paris Regiment didn't Suees and Aden and these sort of places. So, but when he but when they split up, we thought it was a new dawn, it was going to have a bit more normality. But obviously that was good. So once once the incident happened an old shop. What I was alluding to is like you've been through a lot for a little lad anyway. And and did you understand that your mum had died? Did you understand at that moment that she's not coming back? Yes. Yes. But, you know, if you've been a, you know, not this was not this in anybody who's, if it's a car crash or a natural disease, then you don't not see a hand any differently, but you know where to where to box it. And you don't go to school with many people whose mothers have died as a result of a car bomb by apparently Irish people who are Irish people like me. They talk like I do. Do you know what terrorists or grillas? What does that mean? Why would somebody waiting tables get blown up? It just so it was beyond my comprehension. But I think as I've done an interview before and as I said it, the primary thing was survival. Everything had changed. My brothers were taken away somewhere else. I went to live with my dad and his new wife up north. So it was a complete change of picture. So just everything kicked into survival. Just keeping out of the way, keeping low profile, trying to be invisible, just, you know, because obviously, obviously, but sometimes people that you end up with are not best pleased with you being being there, your service requirements. So you just got to crack on and do the best you can to to bring yourself up. So you're saying your dad's met this married a younger woman and they they you weren't part of their plans. No. Yeah, and I just want to get to I mean, one of my earliest memories, John, is my old man driving us 300 miles from home. First, like our mum just was gone when we come home one day. Then it's like a few days past the old man says, right, getting a car. Or is it? No, it's a mini mini van, right? No windows. I don't know. We're just the kids lying in. Drives 300 miles up to Lincolnshire, which is where my mother had absconded to to be with her mum on the way up. My sister's got this little tape player and she's playing out. I think it was Abba and my sister looks at my dad and says, Dad, this song's about you and mummy and I could see my dad just gripping the steering wheel, right? My sister hasn't. She doesn't know what's going on. I know what's even though I'm the younger one. I I know what's going on. We got 300 miles. My dad, we get out on a pavement. My dad just drops our bags. And bear in mind, I've never seen my dad cry. Also, he's never hugged me, right? He just grabs me. Not my sister's already run inside. She's I'm going to go and see mummy and grandma. You know, she she's I'm just left with my dad on the pavement. I know what's happening. And obviously my dad does and he just he he he grabbed me. He give me a hug. He said, I love you so much, son. And he literally jumped into the driver's seat, drove off and I'm just and he's waving out the window like that. In M days, it was unheard of. He didn't drive 300 miles and then jump in the car and drive 300 back. But this is how horrible that, you know, he just he couldn't he didn't want anyway. He's off there. I'm stood there and my mom comes out. She says, where's your father and you're going to stop for a cup of tea. And that was it to see how like, is it only me and my dad understand the seriousness of this situation? We're never going to see our dad again. He's never how old were you, Chris? Oh, maybe seven, maybe, you know, in your mind, you're never going to see your dad again. And in his mind is kids have been taken and I'm not I'm not blaming me. My, my, my, my dear, I want mommy. But I'm just saying, John, I remember, you know, the and that's just one of many. You know, that's probably the one of the instance I can say on camera. It's a lot of other stuff that that wasn't so, you know, wasn't so top tier, you can say. And so I'm just thinking of you as this little lad that you're already in this traumatic situation. And now you've just you like your mom ain't coming back. I mean, do you go home and cry? Cry yourself to sleep or? Well, no, there was, I mean, this is possibly easier to talk about that you may imagine, Chris, because I thought about it in the last 50 years, really trying to analyze it, how I feel, why I feel that way. Like you've done in a way that you compare your experience to other people, not because because you need to know there are other people that go through stuff. It might not be the same, but you know, you look at them, they survived. You know, I need to find a way to survive this thing with with mom was ironically before she was killed. She gave me a bit of a bit of a hiding. I mean, she was old school. She wasn't, you know, pictures on the fridge and you know, she used to dish dish out, but she she was an old school mom and she'd give me a bit of a bit of a hiding for something or other. And but we were very, very Catholic. I say we the house was very Catholic. There was Mother Mary's and Hello Dolly's and all sorts of things over the house over the house everywhere. And mom mom really just went to church and I went to bed all bad and a little bit bruised and I was like, I really hate I wish she was dead. I wish she was dead. And then when it happened on the Tuesday, my mind thought, Jesus Christ, somebody was listening to me. So I had a wish granted. God, that was my fault because it was so outlandish. It wasn't. How are we to come? Where did the car bomb come from? What's the car bomb? So I kind of blame myself. I'm ever thinking how can some of brothers walk down? So when I moved up north and lived with the stepmother and father, I started having nightmares. The stepmother was having her own issues. She was an alcoholic substance of use was an issue and she had mental health issues for which she was sectioned almost as soon as we got there and she would just run in the room if I woke up and just punch me in the face. So then I learned that, okay, I don't want to have nightmares, but I also need to keep it quiet if I do. So and I wasn't the only one getting a bad time there. She had a daughter a couple of years younger than me and there was a newborn baby, which is a product of my dad and this woman. And, you know, it was not it was not exactly the Waltons put that way. So it's yeah, it was it was it was difficult thing. Plus I miss my brothers because they have been part of my life and they were my mentors. I looked up to them. I didn't see them for up to a year of time in the early days and we we we ended up growing apart as the years went by and they were trying to survive over 13 and 15 and they were moving about with different people in London and just trying to survive. They couldn't really do anything about my situation. When you look back, John, do you realize now that your reason for let's just call it not not fitting into the training pattern, although I'm sure you had every, you know, everything that all the rest of us have got. Do you realize that that was related to your childhood trauma? It was complicated by a lot of things. Okay. I was I was like way to put it. I was idiot. You know, I was not composed of good experiences. Most kids have demanding times, but I was I was in all sorts of a mess. I hated the world next dog. I should have gone in the Paris and followed my brothers into the Paris and I was invited up and spent a week with one power and did some training with them. But the Marines was an option to do something that was perceived as testing, but going my own way, do my own thing. And initially I was very fit. I was doing boxing and training and whatever. So the fitness was not a problem. But I didn't expect the level of ill feeling between the Marines and the parents immediately after the Falklands, which obviously is a baited over the last 40 years. But there was there was a lot of rivalry when I got there was not a problem. I mean, the training team initially 180 is my troop. They were hard. We really hard. But nobody really paid much attention to the fact that, you know, I was from a family of Paris. But I've injured messing about another guy who completely trained and he went on to serve with SB. He was very good, but I won't name him for obvious reasons. He was smashing lad, you know, the full ticket, very fit. And we were boxing. He was showing me some improving techniques in boxing. Well, I could box. I wasn't like him and I was showing him a few judo throws and because we're doing it slow, he started pissing about my knee rips and the ligaments and they became detached and a crunch. Now, the initial training team thought I was fit enough to recover and get back into the training team into that troop, but it was it was not going to happen. You appreciate Chris that the training brought ratchets ratchets up and becomes more physically demanding. And once I got back into the troop after about eight weeks, nowhere near it was nowhere near it. And then I started getting motivated. I mean, I had everything that was needed. I was I excelled, but then the attitude started changing. I started feeling alienated and then incredibly. I didn't find this find this out for a couple of years, but one of my brothers phoned up around and part of the training team at Libston from where head wherever it was. He was a color sergeant, one pair. And he claimed I just want to know my brother's getting on and this guy didn't. There's nothing to do with my training team. And he's just said, well, I mean, he's doing OK. He gets a little bit bolder, but you know, he's getting over his injury now and whatever. And it's somehow apparently descended into a will send him up here where he belongs. He should be with the power is not with you. Not waste his time. It got a bit. No handbags, really. And I was down on the bottom field with my troop and running about to do a fireman to carry this random guy came out of the train center. Asked who I was. I put my hand up. He just came over and gave me the hair dryer treatment for five minutes and really go for who the hell's this guy? I don't know him for a box, you know, bar or so. And it puzzled me and even the guys around look at what she's going to just if you hold out the power as you piss off and I'll keep my eye on you. And it was the first real animosity I've had, you know, apart from being told that you've been a dickhead or, you know, you have done this properly. I was puzzled and then years after a couple years after I came out, I was having a talk with this brother, we were having a couple of drinks. And he told me what happened. I said, are you joking? Did you you phoned up and had an argument with a member of the training team? So do you realize him? How the shit I go for that? You know, it's just and then it was opened up really because we're spreading. And yeah, John, that's that's a bit. That's harsh, man. You know, that's after the I think this is always a funny one, right? Every time I chat to a para. Particularly on the show. He's always like within five minutes that they bring up the rivalry. And and I say every time all the time I was in the Marines. Right. We we look down on the army that that's just a given in, you know, that that's that's just like a given. But honestly, Royal Marines don't for the seven years I was in they didn't spend their time slagging off to Paris. They just never even mentioned them, mate. Honestly, we work with them in Ireland. They were great. They were aggressive. More more so than us. We we were we you have to keep a rain on Marines. You know, I've told this story before during our Northern Ireland training. We shot the range to pieces. Yeah. You know, you've got to check that they hate but I can imagine back then though after the Falklands having a para phone up your you know, your training team and and possibly change is up a bit. Yeah. Well, yeah, it's just whatever it was. I'm sure you're sure he meant nothing by it. It's yeah, bad luck, mate. When I wasn't like at the end of the day, I was doing a good much of screw things up myself because I could get in a fight in a phone box on me. Oh, I was a night there and a big chip in my shoulder. I think an old credit to the training teams that I met down there. They were great and looking back at first when we parted company. I did some physio and I got fit again and I joined the army. I knew I couldn't do anything as physically demanding as that again because as it turned out, the injury reoccurred several times. It was a blessing. It gave me a really good kick up the arse. I think any training like that in Paris Marines guards testing training teach you a lot about yourself in some ways you learn that you're a bit harder than you thought in some ways you're you're not, you know, you really do find out a lot about yourself good and bad and it probably takes a few years. You might have done the same for us where it's not until you look back with a more mature viewpoint in Christ, you know, I understand that now. That's why that did me good. I didn't appreciate it at the time. For me, what happened to Marines was a massive rejection and massive failure on my part because I always wanted to belong to something that I perceived as worth belonging to. And I was really impressed with Marines and it's to my regret that it didn't pan out. But having said that, had I taken my place as that young man, I don't know what the ramifications would have been because I was not. I was not on the races mentally. I had too many issues, too many things that I was carrying with me. Although I could run, I could carry weight, I could climb up ropes, but as you alluded to there, you know, you need a bit of thought. You need to be able to control yourself to some extent. You need to be able to work things through and I was, you know, I was a bit too reactive. So I think the Marines made a good decision. And it stood me good stead. Yeah, no regrets. Oh, mate, you know, past is the past. We live in a present, don't we? And we keep I had a brilliant time, Chris. Yeah, brilliant time. It was unlike anything I'd ever done. And it was enjoyable. In fact, that's why I moved down to this part of the world because I fell in love with the area. I've always wanted to live down here and now live in the Southwest. So, yeah, you can look back and regret, but I think you're probably somebody who believes that everything does eventually happen for a reason. You don't appreciate it at the time, but it's the universal whatever guarding you towards whatever choice you have to make next or whatever task or challenge you're going to face next. I want to come back about, John, we'll talk about the justice ramifications of what happened to your mum. But you're you told me a story about your your your brother, Carl, was it? A bit of a standoff with the police? We all dealt with what happened to some of them in different ways being different characters. And Carl I've never really got the measure of what he was up to. He was always very angry. He was always probably the most dramatic one out of all of us. He subsequently joined three para and fun enough like like me, the para's of my other two brothers. They did serve in Northern Ireland. Carl in three para apparently the para said, you know, we won't be taking you to Ireland with us. So he had a real being he's bonnet about the whole bloody Sunday inquiry in in regards to it not making any mention of the reprisal attack. And he kept asking questions at the time and this is early nineties when the bloody Sunday inquiry started and he was writing to MPs and newspapers. Why is nobody mentioned what happened to him? These were me, you know, these people that were his lives rendered as a result of this, but nobody was interested. Now you have to look at it and say, well, the bloody Sunday inquiry is a means to an end. It was a peace process. It was part of the peace process ultimately to so that community could see justice being done such as it was. But he was right. Somebody should have tips of wing to the people who died old Sean, giving them some kind of acknowledgement. But his frustration boiled over into an armed siege in a street in Stretton on a railway bridge. I was working in Berlin at the time. 1996. And he was lucky. He he goaded. He wasn't adversaries was the police that turned up. It was an armed response unit and they taught him down. They they they were invited by him to slot him as as the phrase goes, which as you know what the Paris use is, you know, shoot shoot me. And they were very calm, though very restrained. He ended up doing a year of prison. But for him, that was that was the beginning of the end because although he was ex power and he was quite a hard lad. He was a gifted artist. He was working in advertising London trendy art places. So of course, after he was released from prison. These same people were a little bit less enamored with working with it because you know, yeah, the usual power type face and a bit of a weathered beaten face. And we ended up having to go to do close security work in Iraq. And again, he stayed in mind meant that they wasn't really suitable. He wasn't sufficiently adjusted to do that. And then alcohol read its ugly head. And two years ago, he was found having drunk drunk himself to death in his own home in in London. And I think that's that was a very late victim of the on shot bombing, if you like, because his life was like mine, David's and Brian's. It was it was just survival. Just get it by not getting trouble. And he had everything going for it. But it all just fell apart. We weren't on terms when he died. We'd we'd have a massive fallout as brothers do. But yeah, he was he was very bothered, very bothered by it. But this isn't yet. This is the on on the unknown tally of conflict, isn't it? Yeah, the people that suffer with a mental health and end up either taking their lives or drinking themselves to death. They don't put these in the statistics today. Today, this memorial was unveiled as part of a drumhead service commemoration with the names of all seven Margaret Gardner, John Hasler, Jill Mansfield, Sherry Muntin, Father Jerob Weston, Joan Lunn, and Thelma Bosley. No, you're right, Chris. And for example, if you take stereotypical example of the person who's been exposed to horrific things in being Afghanistan, Iraq, wherever it be, they come back and they struggle to deal with it. And then it's like a ripple effects. It affects their spouse, wife, their husband, boyfriend, their children. And these effects multiply and affects a lot of different people. And that's why, as you said earlier, you've got to find a way to stop wars and conflicts. Ordinary people don't want it. You know, you can always all these conflicts eventually get resolved by people sitting around the table. Yeah, every time. Yeah, after the bankers and the war mongers have made their money, made their money, mate. And your mum was called Thelma. Shall I read out the names of the people that were killed just out of respect? So we've got the Reverend Father Jerry E. Weston and MBE. We've got your mother, Thelma Bosley, Margaret Grant, John Hasler, Joan Lund, Jill Mansfield. I think that's Cherry Muntin. Rest in peace. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I knew. I knew all the girls. Definitely. I would have known John Hasler, the gardener. But I used to go to work with my mum and as a 6 year old kid and you'd climb around their knees and they'd cover your lipstick and Did the IRA accept the blame for this? The responsibility for this, John? Apparently the official IRA. Admitted responsibility. There was the provisional IRA, the official IRA. Now, if you can imagine all the people are watching this back in the day, the troubles were just reemerging, if you will. And the IRA had different splinter groups and different people with different agendas within that Republican organization. They were buying for supremacy, if you like. Again, older people have a similar background to you and I who have been in the forces and served in Northern Ireland in the early days. In services, we'll no doubt know that there were things that went on behind the scenes and deals struck and lines of communication. That might not surprise people, but this that conflict and that situation is no different. Do you want to enlighten us? Because I can tell you a few things I've had just just through doing this job. So, for example, Good Friday agreement. Why did suddenly people that would never sign up to a peace deal suddenly sign up? Apparently because they were getting and they was getting stuff out of it, John. Yes. No. There's a there's always a payback. Yeah, not not that we don't wish and pray for peace because that's that you know, it's that's that's the way it's got to be for the for the children and the next generations. But what and also I mean that there's a film 50 dead men walking. I believe it's called. It's about the it's about the informants that were controlled in in the province. So these are the informants for the British forces government police. But you know, the secret services basically. And there's an interesting bit. So you've got handlers and then you've got the informants. Does this make sense? Yeah, the handlers we've had Bernie on the show. Bernie's former Royal Marine. He's he's been a handler. He was a handler in Afghanistan and you know, you manage local people. The assets assets. Exactly. I believe in 50 dead men walking from what I remember at the end. After all these shenanigans going on through the film and near death experiences and people, you know, if you say one wrong word as an informant or as a handler it triggers suspicion it can trigger suspicion. You can prematurely set off an event that screws up like mumps worth of intelligence work or to the other side of the fence mumps were for planning for a you know, for a bomb event or something like that. And at the end of that shouldn't laugh, but this is the irony of the world. It it turns out that they're all being controlled by London. The part the Pyro. I mean, I mean, yes, I'm not saying that. I'm nothing would surprise me. Chris, nothing would surprise you. Let's be honest. The more you uncover the further you go down rabbit holes and it doesn't matter what topic you look at which shapes policy or whatever or outcomes that there are a few grubby fingers in a few grubby places. Some might say that there were unofficial rules if you like that that came to fruition so far as the British side and the Republican side agreed that, for example, certain people were out of bounds off limits as targets perhaps loyalty. Of course, that was not the case when a certain person was dispatched by means of a bomb on a on a boat in a lake in Northern Ireland. And can I just chip in there and say, have you had the latest on that? The late the latest buzz? What about the potentials or the suspicions of? Well, if it is an adjoining boarding school, it was the I don't know if we're being a bit naughty saying this, but I think it it's common knowledge. It's public knowledge. So a certain person was, you know, fiddling with people that he shouldn't have been. There we go for you know, repeatedly through and it it makes you question who put the bomb on that boat. Was it London or or indeed? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was it's funny, Chris. Sorry to interject, but I won't go into the story. If you don't mind, I won't go into the stories that were related to me over the years by my proximity to people that had served there and, you know, friends and you know, whatever. But some things went on that were not really stuff that you see in the news. That's not withstanding. We all know that the Republican side committed some awful atrocities. I mean, we've been talking about one. So as you said, was a was a very messy and horrific thing, but it's also full of treachery and double dealing. And, you know, we will give this version of events to our side and when in fact that version of events isn't the reality. And I think people know this now. They're not willing to just go through the books in your classroom and this is what happened and you know, more and more questions are being raised. But the Irish troubles, the problems, whatever you want to call it was very complex, very complex. There are lots of different sides. There was the religious aspect, the English, we look at the troubles as being the last 40, 50 years with the Irish because they have a history of storytelling. They pass that, you know, their culture is a big thing to them. They have a different version that their their issues go back way long, the hundreds of years with lots of pretty unpleasant events, which they still remember vividly. It's a strange one, Chris, as all conflicts are. There's there's very little positive to take out of these things at the end of the day. Yeah, there's so many things need looking into, don't they? For example, who who supplies all the drugs in Ireland, you know, into the north? There was a certain person that doesn't he he's no longer with us. So I won't say his name, but let's just say he was at the table for the Good Friday Agreement that allegedly when we were in Belfast, he was the, you know, the guy bringing it all into the into the country. But, you know, the weapons to dirty is it's it, you know, power corrupts an absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. Wherever that's power from selling stuff or power from being in power. Let's talk about the John. How does it feel to you that this incident has kind of it's been like what steam rolled into the past, can we say? Yeah, very much so, very much so. I mean, me and a well, I know I've been campaigning from up for an appropriate memorial to be on the site. Now, I've been involved with some other people with to that regard because the sites now been redeveloped. It's quite a nice housing estate and the developers Granges are going to build a memorial garden in the middle of this state at the location with a memorial, obviously a monument to be decided. Now, ironically, my brother who died a couple of years ago, when he stopped doing the close protection work and he put his feet back on the ground, he ended up being a telescopic forklift driver. He wasn't telescopic. The forklift was and he he worked on the site as it was being built and he brought this attempt to the attention of developers and said, look, do you know what happened here, guys? And they said, well, no need to explain. And this is I mean, you virtually couldn't make this stuff up. And he said, well, look, you know, this was a there was a car bomb left here and these people died. And they said, well, as such earlier, they said, well, we'll have to commemorate that. Now, my interest was having this removed from a celebration of all things military. Old shots got that pretty well covered. You know, there are statues everywhere. It's a garrison town. And I thought, wouldn't it be good to turn this around and say, well, there's people going to be making their homes here. You know, it's a new community. Have it as a memorial by all means, but let's look to it for something better. You know, a monument to the mistakes of the past, what we were doing wrong in the past, a memorial to better things to come, educate our kids better. You know, and any future memorial should be a coming together. No bands, no bugles, no speeches from dignitaries with big feathers in their hats and all that. They were totally unrelated to that. Oh, no, John, John, sorry, I just want to chip in because we had a very good chap on a podcast recently, Paul Cardin, and he really went under the surface with the whole Falklands conflict and he unearthed so much stuff that the public don't know to the point of, you know, criminality basically. And I think it's everyone's duty, especially veterans to if you find out something, you know, we should all be against war. It's not it's nonsense. It's nonsense. It's the same twisted manipulation of young naive go getting young people used to be predominantly young men, but I hope people understand what I'm saying. It's just it's the same like twisted plot that they bring out every single time. There's a bogeyman over there. You've got to go and get them. Oh, by the way, we're just going to, you know, kill a whole load of people in the meantime. And then and then there's the peace thing when everyone's made them their money. So yeah, Paul, Paul done a great job. I mean, for example, just give people an example in his book, which is called Return to Bomb Alley. He highlights 80 percent of the Falklands is owned by a private corporation, not the Falkland Islanders. You know, just just little things like that. Chile had a peace deal on the table that conveniently Margaret Thatcher overlooked. Can we disregard, you know, yeah, yeah, didn't didn't collect didn't announce publicly that they disregarded, but you're somebody who's made made an adult career, if you like, of realizing these things of going against your initial upbringing and going to war and training within a good unit to go to war. What you're alluding to, I think, is that there's a great raft of dispossessed people, young, take the UK, you know, your depressed towns, your dysfunctional families. And if you look at it for society like Britain, if we want to get the best out of these kids, you know, youngsters as we once were, is this the best we can do? We can train you. We can put you in a uniform. I know we can send you off overseas wherever it is, and it's no different from the First World War from, you know, to do these things which profit massive companies. And we'll tell you it's for this and it's for freedom and it's for it very rarely is, it very rarely is. And, you know, again, removing the war aspect, is this the best any society can do? Can't we imagine training kids up, educating them, giving them technical skills, practical skills? They're right. Go over, let's develop parts of the world. Don't convert them to your religion or ram that down their throats. Just helpful, this is how we, this is how we construct things in our part of the world. This will last for a long time. This is water irrigation. This is whatever. I did little bits of that in the Royal Engineers in Kenya in a later career. It was really fulfilling. It was really good. You actually mix with the people. Samburu tries people, you know, ordinary people and see how they live and you interact with them. You don't shoot anybody. You know, and it, it's just a shame that that's the best we can do, you know, that's, but one thing I will, this is kind of their field, Chris, but a couple of years ago, I was watching the remembrance service. And I'll just say, John, that's the point that Paul makes. When you talked about a statue in a monument, it Paul just highlights how on Remembrance Sunday up at the cenotaph. You get all these politicians, for example, that turn up the very people that sent our youngsters off to die. Knowingly, you know, I mean Tony Blair's common knowledge, knowingly, falsifying intelligence in order to support what are called a big club, right? And then you get this Remembrance Sunday where Tony Blair steps up to present a reef. The exact same guy that sent these people to their deaths so he could get rich. Okay. I actually believe he's sort of in a way a victim. I think he just got in way over his head. I think because of his own past, he was being blackmailed by the by, you know, the club, right? And rather than just hold his hand up and say, yeah, look, I got my winky out in a men's toilet once. I'm sorry. He, you know, he took us to to war, John, you know, and yeah, we're very good. Aren't we? The glorious dead. We tell that to the little boy whose daddy didn't come back or the father is crying in his beard, you know, seen this literally because he packed his son off to the army. He was so proud when his son passed out in that smart unit and then he gets sent off to one of these illegal conflicts and he don't come back and that father's got to live with it. It's with this, what I was going to say to Chris may not, it may resonate with the other ex-forces people that might be watching this. And I don't mean this in any disrespect to anybody, but the thought occurred to me because when I was watching, it was probably about seven years ago. I was watching the remembrance at the Senator. Now, just before that, they'd been a big expose on the Panama papers and about people avoiding tax and one of the main allegedly one of the main people was the head of our then rule family evading trillions of pounds over a given period. So I thought in my mind, I was watching a member of the Royal Family lay a wreath on the Sunets off and in the background was rows of very smart looking soldiers, made of female Navy, whatever. And then front row was a line of veterans in wheelchairs, some quite young. So some clearly from recent conflicts Iraq, Afghanistan with legs missing arms missing. And I thought, I bet that a lot of those guys have got those prosthetic limbs because of the efforts of say people like you that do these fun runs to assist and raise money. But I think that wouldn't be needed if the person laying the wreath had been honourable about the contributions they're supposed to make to the state that are there to unfortunately facilitate what these people need. They could of course facilitate the removal of the need for these guys to go to these places and girls. But I just thought the whole thing was so hypocritical. Forgive me. I would say that obviously you do you do talk about the spirituality dimensions and all this sort of thing. I think you're a lot above a lot of people that may watch your podcast. And I get it. I mean, I'm sure people do, but it takes a lot to move up that and move up that scale and not be diverted by the you know, the nonsense around you. But yeah, I mean, unless you find something spiritual or something to believe in something to aspire to that's beyond the crap that's offered, you know, like not not being so quick to blame the people that's telling you your enemies, be immigrants, boat people, people of different colours, people of different cultures. You know, when you when it really boils down to it. You know, we've all got a common enemy. These these same people put in the streets, but it's all crisp because you know the biggest weapon that these people or the club of which we are you and I are not members is diversion tactics. Keep everybody occupied. Keep them worried. Keep them in fear. The thing is, Chris, I mean, we're also actually think that in order to remove ourselves from this or to improve the situation, we then are trained to become adversarial. We've got to bring this down. We've got to fight those who have been an insurrection. Apparently we don't. I mean, if if people educate themselves of the fact that the laws we live under are bogus, they're bogus. And then there's lots of things again, confusion, common law, natural law, this, that, the other, but most societies originally lived under common law, which is do no harm. Don't kill people. You know, they're very, very small list of rules. The law that we live under in the UK and I'm only just educate myself this is apparently based on maritime law, hence you stand in the dock. You have a birth certificate and it's kind of a a bastardization of like legal is not the same as law. Legal is these acts that are passed in Parliament. They have no validity and the only reason they have control over us is because we submit to it. And even the police apparently the police work for a corporation which is registered in the city of London or or wherever. And when they write you to find you or they do whatever they do, it's an exchange between two corporations, the corporation, which is the police in reality and the corporation's been invented when you're born, which is why they apparently address you in capital letters. Yeah, to call it legal fiction. Don't know. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, but a woman was on a podcast explaining she's an Irish lady, Dolores Delores Carhill. That's the one. That's the one. And she put it over very simply and just said, look, it does take it does take courage and individuals can't do on their own. But when enough people realize and just say, well, thanks for that, but we're not. I don't recognize your law. Yeah, it does. It does take it does take some some balls, but the whole thing's been a big scan for years. And we're so used to it by all the pants on the wigs and the cloaks and the Lord and all this. It's so it's all distraction. It's all distraction. Yeah, it's like these parking fines. They come through the door. You just put return to sender. Well, hang on. I drove my car and you're a random stranger writing to me and I've got to send you 70 quid. How the hell does that? What? What? Sorry, what? What? How have I hurt anybody? How have I stolen anything from anyone? Who did I? You know, who did I do over? I believe it was absolutely no one. So do you know what? You can you can take your letter and you can you can shove it where the sun don't shine. But the bottom line is, Chris, again, going back to this real law date for the common law, everybody's great equal. No, no, no one person has demeaning over others to, you know, according to this to tell people what or not what not or what to do. As long as you're doing no harm, you don't intend any harmony on you can go about your lawful business, but all these increasing barriers to movement, to freedom. It's it's piecemeal drip drip. And then one day people get away come fuck, I'm not allowed to go there. I can't go and trip over there. What happened? John, one I could chat to you all the all evening. So honestly, it's it's it's great to find a is it kindred spirit? Is that the right expression? Hopefully, yes. And I appreciate you. Johnson's some very kind stuff about the podcast earlier folks very much enjoying it. And that's that's a result we're going for. Have you found your peace? I'm getting there. I'm getting there because I know that the the I know what I'm capable of doing what I'm not. For example, I can't relationships and stuff are difficult for me because I prefer to be on my own now. I've got a dog. I've got friends and stuff. So I'm happy with that and you've got to cut your cloth to suit. So yeah, I'm as happy as the next man and like you working to find a better place to be mentally and spiritually. Excellent. You know what they say about women? You can't live with them. Can't live without them and you can't kill them. Nice talk to Chris. Best of luck. Brilliant, mate. Just stay on the line so I can thank you properly. Friends at home. Massive thank you to to to John. Whoa, what a what? What is it? So, you know, some people have to go through bloody hell. Bloody hell. Folks, if you can support the podcast, I'd really appreciate it. If you can chuck us a like for this video, hit the subscribe button if you haven't already and click the notification bell. If I could ask you to support us, please on Patreon for one 99 a month or become a YouTube member. It's just one 99 a month. That's all from me. So another thank you to John. Massive love to you all and see you soon.