 I was actually just with my, um, the, my best, my two best friends that, uh, we go back till fourth grade. Now the one thing I'd noticed now, and I'm, I'm 38, uh, they're both 39. We all grew up same class. Uh, and we still are extremely tight. I see them at least once a month before we all had kids. It was probably two, three times at least a month. We saw each other. But I do notice that, um, we are different now. Like we're still bonded because we had this childhood that we grew up together, but we definitely have like, we have different political views. So it's actually makes a really interesting dynamic. Are you guys like that, or are you guys very similar? Like we're, we're pretty similar. Yeah. I feel like we're, um, except finding each other after years of education and experience, finding out what she was doing and what was going on was impressive. Like, wow, this is crazy. You've written a couple books and yeah. And I opened a business and a sizable practice and, um, both doing our things. That was like what was most remarkable coming back together. But as far as who we are and what we do, very similar. Well, you guys, you, you were all fair. We were talking a little bit about that. I'd love to revisit that conversation because it reminds me of the conversation we all had when we first met, because we actually didn't even really know each other. Justin and I had worked together 10 plus years ago. Sal and Doug knew each other, but the four of us had never all met before. And when we got together, uh, we were just, we were talking about the fitness industry, all the issues that we saw with it. Like we saw the way we saw people marketing themselves and it sounded really similar to kind of what you guys were talking about with the whole family thing. So explain that a little bit. Yeah. I mean, we, we can just kind of go to a place where we'll, we could talk from Boston Logan airport all the way to LAX without a breath. I mean, we're at that point where there's just so much stuff that we connect over, you know, being moms and, and working and, and now collaborating together. And, and, and our, our backgrounds are so similar. I mean, growing up, you know, what were we like, maybe two tenths of a mile away from each other when we were kids? Um, you know, the school was in the middle and we were each on either side of it. So, um, you know, we, we have this lifetime of, of experiences together. And, and it's interesting too, because we have all of this, this past history together and all of these friends, like after we leave, you guys were flying down to LA and we're going to catch up with a bunch of our high school friends who are out there. And it's like, we have all of these things in common. And then we have this chunk of time when we got married and when our kids were really little and we weren't together and living in the same place that we catch each other up on. So either we're talking about the current stuff we're doing or the stuff we did when we were kids are filling each other in. So we never really stopped. What exactly inspired the book? So you guys get together, you start talking about what you were doing with the previous? She, she, I banged into her long story short. Oh yeah. I'm writing, I'm starting to write some books and I shared what I was doing, which was I'm a psychotherapist and I've been doing this for 25 years and had a sizable practice with my mother for the first 19 years. And we got to talking and she's like, what do you do? And I go into schools, I do lectures, I do public speaking, I write curriculum for teachers, I do all sorts of different things. And when we started talking about the thing we both had in common, which was kids and parenting, we both were aligned in the way that we were approaching our parenting, which was very humanistic. And so I was reading a little bit of what she was writing about and I was sharing the work that I was doing. And it was just this very natural connection around, okay, this is a very humanistic approach. And that's what I kept saying to Lisa was humanistic. So you've been doing this for 19 years in schools or longer? Longer. She has been. Yeah. I started in schools about 25 years ago. So what have you seen over the, tell us what you, what, Well, there's not enough time for what we've seen. Well, I started at 25 years ago, I started in a school in an inner city area, just outside of Boston. And I was in the middle of everything from gang warfare to, you know, kids from broken homes, living generationally with grandparents that they hadn't, you know, the parents were still over in another country to kids who, you know, I was, the town was sat alongside a very upper class, nice community where kids were privileged. So long story short, I saw both sides. And so from that, seeing those perspectives, it was a perfect place to start my career. But I knew that I wanted to be able to take the work I was doing in schools and bring it somewhere. There was such a disconnect, I'd work at a outpatient facility and see kids coming in with parents worried about school and friends. And then I was in the schools working with the teachers and the kids. And there was such a disconnect. So we created new beginnings counseling service, my mother and I, and it was a place to come after school to then be able to see parents and families and kids to talk about anything and everything. And then it got so big that I needed to hire other clinicians because I couldn't do all the direct service myself. So why is it growing so fast? What were you, what were you obviously making some sort of connection or your enlightening these teachers or parents? I think it was honestly the way that I approached things. I'm not here to judge anyone. I'm here to give you four walls and a door. Tell me what's going on. Your honesty is what helps me help you. So come in, talk to me. And I think a lot of people when they think of therapy and counseling, it's like, oh, it was just, I think a very, for us, an opportunity to give families, kids, teachers, administrators a place to come, not feel judged, throw it all out on the table and start talking about what, you know, let's get real, what is going on in the classroom? What is going on in your home? What is going on behind closed doors? And um, and then from there, I just, I think it had a lot to do with my mother and myself and the way that we approached it and the people that we hired. We were all in it for the love of, of the job, not to, you know, that you mentioned the term humanistic. What does that mean exactly? Common sense. It really just boils down to a common sense approach to, in this case, parenting, it was, you know, raising kids to take responsibility for themselves, let the kid climb the tree until they feel unsure and they'll stop, you know, the old, not that we're encouraging kids to put their hands on burners on the stoves, but like, you know, put your hand on the burner and, and, you know, if you're going to get burned, you're not going to do it again. It's, it's just teaching kids just how to advocate for themselves and letting kids be kids, letting kids be unstructured, letting kids explore and kind of define who they are on their own. Now that sounds, that sounds somewhat intuitive, but it sounds also, it's very counter to, I feel like what's been happening, which is this, oh yeah, just sheltering the heck out of it. Helicopter parenting. Helicopter wall. We've got, I mean, we've got a ton of that in the book, helicopter parenting. And then we talk a lot about lawn mower parenting, which is really kind of the next generation. It's the next generation of lawn mower parent, you know, of helicopter parenting. And also there's, you know, there, there's this whole movement. While helicopter parenting, you all know what that is. You're, you know, you're, you're all the time you're hovering and oh, and the bulldozer parenting is the other one that's kind of symbiotic too. Lawn mower parenting is you're just, you're paving the way in such a way that there's absolutely no bump in the road for your kid. You just, I mean, you just picture of the, you know, that, that, you know, that backyard, that long straight, thin, you know, lawn mower line, and, and there's nothing obstructing anybody. And that's what parents are doing. They're just bulldozing or all right. And then they come into my office and they're like, I want my kids to have wings and do something independent and go off to college or manage themselves. And they haven't had adversity. They haven't had obstacles. They don't have the skill set to problem solve. And so I know we all come from, you know, a place that we love our children. We don't want them to struggle. We want them to have success. But in doing that, it is really problematic for this generation because they really don't know how to problem solve and manage themselves moving forward. And so for us, we're doing a lot of talking around being a lawn mower parent and, and how teachers are also impacted by this as well. I don't know if you guys work with any youth, but, you know, a lot of them come in and they expect you to do it for them and help them along in a way that is kind of not very productive. Do you feel that this may be a contributor towards the outrage culture we're kind of seeing out there today? I do. When you say outrage, just in terms of like, I'm offended. I'm offended by everything and everything. Well, I think it's the same mentality that parents have who are so pissed off when their kid doesn't get a trophy. You know, I think, I think, yeah, exactly. You know, well, you know, my kid, my kid knew that my kid could, you know, could, could do that at home with me while we're studying. What do you mean they didn't pass the test? And now statistically, when you look at statistics on, on children, there's a lot of measures that seem to be improving or a lot better. Kids are having less, you know, premarital sex or risky sex. There's drug use seems to be down. They less car accidents with children, but they're also, they also seem to be more sheltered. Is that a, are those positive side effects of the helicoptery parenting? Or what are the, what are the negatives that would say that you guys are seeing that need to be addressed with the, the, the, you know, lawnmower parenting or helicopter parenting? Well, yeah, they're, they're just, they're not giving their kids the ability to hit obstacles. They're not, I mean, that's so critical for human beings to have to understand what it feels like to see an obstacle and, and identify what it is and find a workaround, figure it out. And if you can't go straight through it, find a way over under around and without the skills and that, that, you know, that, that history of doing that and, and maybe failing and then getting up and, and starting again and trying a different path and pivoting without the ability to do that. Kids are, they're at such a disadvantage because they, they're ill equipped. They can't, you know, it's, it's like we, we have a whole chapter in the book about saying no, how important it is to say no to your kids. It's, it's the same kind of a thing where we're, we're doing too much for them. We're, you know, breeding this, this generation of, you know, entitled kids and they're just expecting that everything is handed to them in every way. But on the flip side of what you were asking is, are there benefits? And I think, I know as parents, we want our child to succeed, right? We want to, our job is to set them up for success. And I think that the flip side of that is, I know I come from a place where I want my kid to get where they want to go. And as a parent, I'm going to make sure that they get where they want to go. And I think a lot of parents think that it means making sure they get the A and not the B. So I work with teachers and the front line of that. And they're, you know, getting a call from, you know, Mrs. Fox saying, Hey, you know, why did my son get a B and not an A? And they're saying, well, your child earned a B. And so in that case, that's where it goes awry. I feel like the parent needs to let the child earn what they worked for. And if they didn't study enough or they got a few wrong, it's okay. So on the flip side, I get why parents are doing what they're doing. And kids are going to wonderful places. They are getting to wonderful colleges and getting into the careers that they yearn for. But, you know, at what cost? Like, you know, the scandal in the news right now. At what cost? Yeah, that's, that's a test. At what cost? It is. And that there's, there's a lawn mower parent at its best, right? They're going to remove any obstacle in the way and break the law why they do it. So how do we, how do we as parents manufacture adversity? This is something that I think about a lot now that I have a newborn. And he certainly is going to be raised in a very different household than I was. And I know that as a kid, all the adversity that I went through, I probably went through a time in my life where I was angry at my parents because it was so hard or we didn't have things. And, and then you go through this transition when you get older and you go like, oh, shit, I'm so glad I went through that because it, it forged me into who I am today. And so I think about this a lot as I'm raising a young one now and going like, man, he's just not going to face any of the same similar challenges as I had. And I think that's really important to developing as character. So how do I manufacture adversity? I don't think you can manufacture, I mean, you can't manufacture, you just allow them to experience it. So just like a simple conflict with a friend, right? I didn't get invited, I didn't get invited, or I wasn't included. How do you manage that? Is it rejection? Is it I'm not good enough? Is it I'm left out? And so that is not something you have to manufacture. It's going to happen. And that child is going to go through some social stuff, some academic stuff that is going to come forward naturally. If they're part of a team or as we were talking part of a band or part of something, it really is these things are going to happen. And when the obstacles happen, you need to let them experience it. Well, let's go back to that. That's a, that's a great one that you brought up. And my brain's spinning right now, as you said that, like, what would I say to my son? He's been left out, birthday party or something. He thought it was his friends. He wasn't invited. What does that conversation look like? Or what should it look like? I think that it's really important for kids to understand that when someone behaves in a certain way, that's their choice. And so if a child didn't include them, that's that person's behavior and choice. That's theirs. This is your, your behavior, your reaction and how you manage it is yours. And so helping them understand, okay, I could take this personally, I could take this as a form of rejection, or maybe there's more to the story that I don't understand. And so it's helping them understand, okay, this happened. How is it landing on you? What does it mean for you? And so it's helping them understand you can meet this with anger and, you know, you know, confrontation, or you can manage yourself in a more productive way and be able to say, okay, I'm going to step back. That's them. If I want an opportunity to do something, I'm going to create the opportunity for connection. And I'm going to create a social encounter for myself. So you're just trying to sort of coach into how they're going to be able to react to situations like that. That's right. That's the thing. And that's a thread. We talk a lot about that throughout the whole book. I mean, that's, that's one of the major pillars in this book. It's really all about how as human beings, we are limited to very few things that we can actually fully completely control. And one of the things, one of the big things that we can totally and completely control is the way that we act and react to the situations around us and the people around us and the circumstances that we find ourselves in. And, and that's something so important to teach your kids. So my, my youngest is 19 and my oldest is 22. And we still have these active conversations every day because now they're in the working world and they're, you know, college and, you know, there's so many different opportunities when they're not under your roof anymore, where they, they're faced with all these, these challenges where so much is coming at them, it could be a professor, it could be a roommate, it could be someone at their, their job. And they're, you know, they're in a situation where someone's handing them something, you know, whether it's a dialogue or whatever it is, and you have to react to it and you have a choice, you know, you can, you can pivot one way, you can pivot the other way. And it's our ability to manage our own attitude and response that is one of the most powerful things that we can give to our kids to empower them. Do you think, what do you think about the, you know, everyone gets a trophy hated, hated, hated, hate it makes me throw up in my mouth. Yeah. I mean, we, we hate it too. You know what? I think personally as someone who, you know, I played sports all through, you know, college and high school and for myself was never on a team to get the trophy. My, my, do you remember at my school, I went to a local private school for a couple years in our town. We had a losing streak. Our basketball losing streak was like 77 years long. Oh, wow. It was that, it was gross. That one win that we had when I was a senior, we had one win. And it was, there was no trophy. It was nothing. It was just a W. And it was the greatest thing in the world. It was being part of this unit that's bigger than yourself, not for a trophy. I think that the generation that we're seeing emerge the Gen Z kids. There's a lack of motivation for a lot of them. And that's because if everyone's getting a trophy, it really doesn't matter how hard you worked, the effort you put forth, the level of commitment you had, because you know, at the end of the day, he's going to get one. I'm going to get one. He's going to get one. And so having athletes that I've, you know, my boys all were athletes through high school and even my son who's a musician that for them to be part of something or selected for something, that is earning it. That's putting forth effort. Not everyone's going to get the part in the play or in the band or on the team. And they have to learn how to deal with failure. They have to learn how to manage when they don't get what they want. And if everyone's going to get a trophy, you're not teaching them that. It dilutes the whole experience. You know, you're the essence of being a part of a team is being a part of a cohesive group that's working towards something together, that's training towards something together and experiencing success and loss together. And when you all of a sudden are just giving out medals and trophies just for showing up, it dilutes everything. And the essence, if you back it all up and you look at it, you look at it objectively, the reason why we're there is to just show up for one another and to show up to play the sport or to act in the play or to do the thing. Yeah. When I think back, the best lessons I ever learned for life were in my losses. Yeah. Oh, we talk about that all the time. Yeah. They weren't in my wins. It was when I lost or I didn't do well that I learned the most. I agree. I mean, the losses, I remember one of my kids was on a losing baseball team and he was so frustrated because he just, he was working his hardest. He couldn't, he couldn't control the outcome and he was so frustrated that he went to a field not far from our home and he screamed. I said, let it out. Scream your brains out. Let it out because he was just so frustrated instead of getting frustrated with his teammates or getting confrontational or pointing the finger it's your fault. So it's helping them learn. This feels awful, but you know what? I'm going to take my part and walk off the field and figure out how to manage it. So yeah, through pain is growth. Yeah. Do you, do you think if there's a classroom where let's say all the kids got A's, let's say the teacher's teaching history and everybody gets A's, do you think that's a success or do you think that that's pushing a kid through his academics? Yeah. And I see that a lot and I see the kids on the other side of that and it's, it's, it's really disjustice. It's, it does them a disjustice because they don't have the skills to earn the A, but they got the A. Yeah. So I, I have a, so I have a son who's very academic. He does really, really well in school. I've never helped him with homework because he just seems to thumbs up. Well, my worry is that he's not going to have strong adversity in school. And eventually you will, you will have adversity, right? Of course. At some point it's going to get real hard. It's inevitable. And I'm afraid that he's not going to know how to handle that kind of challenge because school has been so easy. Now, so now I'm, what I've done is I've encouraged him to take classes that stretch him a little bit and he is getting a little bit of that. And I'm excited to see that he's, you know, he's getting some of his first Bs because it's, it's okay. It's humbling and it's, you know, and it's reality too. I mean, you, you can't just expect to have a, you know, a 4.0 across the board in your life. I mean, you're not going to get every job necessarily that you apply to and you're not going to get picked for every team. And you're not, you know, not every girl you ask out is going to say yes. And, you know, all these things, it's my, you know, I keep going back to the, you know, the wins versus losses. And, and I've always felt that, that the losses are, are where the real magic happens because that's how you learn to persevere. I just feel so crucial to learn that at a young age. Because I mean, going on through life, you're going to have relationships, you're going to have business failures. We have just so many things that if you, if you don't learn those skills to be able to deal with it and move forward and, uh, you know, get through all that. I don't know how. You know what? You're screwed if you don't have those skills. But you, it's out of your control. Like you were saying, your, your child has A's and I see some kids who come into my office and they're in college and they're getting their first B and it's taken, you know, 13 or 14 years to earn it. So I feel as though when the adversity comes along, it might not happen right away. Use it as an opportunity to learn. Their teacher moments, right? Instead of figuring out, Oh, well, the teacher was a hard teacher and that's why I earned the B or, you know what, um, you know, it's my, but it was a group project and not everyone did their part. Your lesson is that you, you know, when the child is earning A is good for him. That's wonderful. And then the day comes when he doesn't and it's like, okay, what part of this is, um, you know, a difficult part. What is this part? You know what? Okay. Well, how did you earn your B was the content hard? Did you put in enough time studying? Did you understand it? Did you, you know, um, I feel like sometimes people sugarcoat things a little bit too much too. Like, uh, if, if my kids do worse than other kids at something, um, I've heard other parents say things like, well, you know, it's okay. It's your thing. And I'll, you know, my kids will ask me, Hey, why did so-and-so do so much better than me or we lost? Well, they were better than you. They were better than you today. And that's okay. Yeah. And that is okay. You know, maybe they tried harder. They studied harder or sometimes people naturally are going to be better than you. Yeah. Strengths and weaknesses vary across the board. I laugh. My, my youngest one wanted to take an AP class this year as a sophomore. And I was like, Oh gosh, but he said, mom, I'm taking it for the subject matter. I want to take this class. And he's knocking out of the park. Whereas other kids who took it for the purpose of the AP might not be doing as well, right? They might be earning the C or less because they're in it for a different reason. And so, you know, to your point. What do you guys think about raising kids today in this social media world? And do you think that it is having a huge impact? Do you think that it's affecting social skills? Like, what do you guys see? When, when you say social skills, the very first thing that comes to my mind is my 19 year old who will try to make plans with friends and they're all on their phones and they're all in different places. And she's, yeah, she's 19. She's a grown woman. And they'll, you know, be back and forth about some ridiculous simple plan that they have for that day. And it's taking them an hour and 45 minutes before everyone's responding on the thread and everyone's connecting. I'm like, pick up the phone. Just pick up, pick up the telephone. That's not how we do it in mind. My generation doesn't do that mom. That's not what we do, you know, or, or you get back, we talk about this a lot that, um, you know, your kids will text you and, and it'll be all caps. And it's either yelling at you or, or there's a period at the end. You get that from the boys. If there's, if you accidentally put a period at the end of a sentence or something that you've written, I'll get another text immediately. Why are you so angry? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Look it up. It's a thing. That's how mom used to in sentences growing up. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, just even simply writing the word what, what, or yep, that's a big one in my house. You know, it's a texting and all the social media piece. I just, I've, it's, it's very hard to watch. It's one dimensional and that's the problem. There's no inflection. There's no, you know, I'm sitting across from Sal. Sal knows what I mean when I say something a certain way or because he sees my face. He understands how I'm saying it without that and the absence of that, that human contact, you don't know. And it's, it's all subjective and it's all flat. It's totally sarcastic. Yeah. It's possible. It's not only that. I feel like one of the, probably what I think is one of the scariest things is, and we talk about this because we're in the fitness space, you know, I, I'm guilty of this. I have, I don't know, follow. I follow probably thousands of people that are anybody who's into working out and fitness in our space. I tend to follow, right? And so my feet is just flooded with all these perfect bodies. Yeah. And I know from working in the industry for 20 years and being actually in like brick and mortar gyms and seeing people working out, which already that's a selection bias that you, these are people that are care about their health and fitness. They're in the gym. And if I were to look in the gym at all the bodies in there, everybody looks pretty normal. Maybe there's that one or two people in there that look amazing or look like a model or that, but everybody else looks the fucking same. So we, and so as, as these kids and these kids tend to gravitate towards these other kids that look amazing or have amazing things. And so I, I fear that like, yeah, I think that the, the thing that I see is this just when social media started and Instagram and all of that, I used to have kids that would just be so anxious cause they didn't get likes on their pictures and people weren't acknowledging. Um, and you know, the whole Facebook frenzy of how everyone putting out the perfect images to present a certain way and no one puts out the first thing in the morning or the, you know, not so good outfit that you put together and looking a little chubby right now, not in shape. Um, but I do, I mean, I, my heart is heavy when I think of social media, because I think it's, it's a blessing and a curse because kids are dealing with, like you said, perfection. Um, I think constant contact has just destroyed a lot for kids. I'm not, you know, if a child's being bullied in the school, um, when I was in a school and someone wasn't kind to me, I left the school yard and I would go home and it was done for the day. And now it's not, it follows them home. And if anything, there's more destruction everywhere. Right. And, and it's so hard to, you know, watching that. So I'm, you know, the mom of two girls and, and they, they've grown up with social media, not, not as much my older one, because it was just emerging when she was coming, you know, kind of into her own, but my youngest, especially, I mean, the hardest thing is, is, you know, you see the pictures of the bar mitzvah and, and everybody's there and they're all wearing the matching hoodies and you know, they've all, they're all in the photo booth and, and she's not there. And well, those are some of my friends. Why am I not there? And then it's, it's, it's just this, you know, this frenzy of activity around whatever event was this weekend and, and, and you're not a part of it or, you know, it's, you see it, you see it in colleges. It's, um, you know, kids go off to college now and, and they've been there for three and a half days and they're already at, you know, mixers and everybody's got their solo cup and they're all, you know, they're, they're like 42 kids in one picture. They don't know each other, but all these kids are posting all these pictures that, you know, they're, they're at their first frat party and they don't know a single person's name, but to the rest of the world, they're like, live in large, you know, they're on campus, they've got a huge network, but they don't. And, and it's this false advertising. Exactly. It's this, this perception. We see this in our space, even I, you know, we, we, uh, you know, I remember as, as the podcast started to grow, um, we began to get more and more connected to people that were insta famous or, you know, have these massive social followings. And as we'd go around and we'd meet them, I only, before I met them, my only perception of them is what I'd seen on social media. And, you know, some of these, some of these guys and girls they, they do, they, they take pictures with only other people that are famous or big. And then you get to know them and you find out they're extremely lonely, but they put on this, this perception that they're, they're, you know, hanging out with famous people and they're, they're, and that's all they post. But then when you get to know them, they don't have, they'd, one, they don't even have a real connection with those people. It was like a, it's all smoke and mirrors. Right. And then, and then you see that they're actually extremely lonely. Yeah. How do you guys speak to this, to kids growing up? Like, what do you, what do you say to them? I say it a lot. And I think that helping kids understand, you know, dialogue and having those conversations with your kids is so important. And some kids that I work with choose not to be on social media so that they can retain their own comfort and their own self-worth and not feel like they're comparing. So they might not have Snapchat and they might not have Instagram or all of this to preserve themselves because they can't tolerate or know how to navigate. And that brings up the dialogue that I have with a lot of parents, which is giving your kids too much technology when they're not ready for it. And being able to say, you know what, kiddo? I'm going to, we had flip phones back when we had kids, you know, getting phones. And I gave them flip phones on purpose so that they weren't on the internet or getting access to technology they weren't ready to handle. And I unfortunately think that nowadays, you know, iPhones and androids and all these, you're handing them the world. They're first grade kids and they've got iPhone 11. I mean, it's, the phone is bigger than the kid's head. And it's, it's what they're on all the time. Now the challenge I have is that the technology, social media, cell phones, this is where kids meet and hang up or hang out, I should say with each other. This is how they socialize. So where, so where's the balance? Because cutting your kid off of technology, it's not like they can go outside and hang out with their friends. Nobody's outside. Going over each other houses. They don't typically do that as much because they're all online with each other. So how do you, how do you balance that out? Because cutting them off is also cutting them off of their friends sometimes. It's limitations. It's just setting boundaries and teaching them young. Right. That, that they're moderation. Exactly. So that when there, there's a time and a place for it. And so I do think there are certain ages and we talk about it in the book. I, some of my tips kind of help outline ages and technology a little bit and the quantity of it because I, I do think that, um, you know, I work in as young as preschool kindergarten, going in and helping teachers assess and kids just don't have the social skills that they need. Simple salutations and eye contact. And we talk a lot about EQ versus IQ in the book. We have a whole chapter dedicated to it because kids are, are losing, they're fast losing that ability to just, to just do this, to just have a conversation with someone and look someone in the eye or, or, you know, show empathy. What is the difference between EQ and IQ? So your IQ is, is your intelligence quotient. It's, you know, how you're going to perform on the IQ, the written IQ test. Um, and EQ is your emotional quotient. It's your ability to be a good friend, to be a good listener, to sympathize and have compassion and empathy and, and, you know, and, and really be there as a support for another human being who might need it. Um, there's social skills there, the ability to sit down and, and have a conversation and not interrupt someone in which, you know, some of these things seem so basic and fundamental. And yet kids can't do it. I mean, there are so many kids. But parents can't either. So I'm going to say that dinner time in my house is no phones. We do the same thing. Stack them. We stack them right in the middle of the, you know, the table. But parents have to do that too. And the bummer when I, when kids come in, I have this one child that I've worked with for years. She wish, she wishes that her parents would put the phones down during dinner. And she's the kid. She just wants to have a conversation. So I do think when you say, okay, you don't want to cut your kid off. I get that. But when I was a kid in the phone rang on the wall on the old fashioned phone, my dad didn't answer it. It was not during dinner time that we answered phones. And so nowadays it's like, okay, even though the phone isn't on the wall and it's in your hand, I want you to take it and put it over here, turn it off. It's okay to tell a friend. I'm not able to talk right now. I'm out to dinner with my family or I'm at home having a Friday night movie night. It's okay to let people know you're unavailable. Do you think that we're just in a transition, nary kind of phase where I had a little glimpse of hope because I was talking to some other parents at a party and they were saying that there's this big movement amongst a lot of the kids kind of coming up that aren't using phones at all. And they're not even interested in it. My son who just went off to college, he's a freshman and he told me, I just saw him a couple of weekends ago and he said, I'm barely on my phone, barely. I don't have time for it. I'm not interested. It's boring and it's funny because he's not, you know, no pictures. I'm like, hey, what's your roommate look like? And I don't see it. I feel like that's the rebellious nature of all children. And what it has to probably be is the parents are probably so bad on the phones and the kids growing up being like, I don't want to be like that. I don't want to be like that. So is that funny? It's the longevity. I mean, of course, this is a longevity of kids. I mean, there are some kids that they'll be sitting there and they're hitting all their Snapchat things to just show that they saw it. And they're like, I have to do this. I'm like, what do you mean you have to do it? Oh, well, my streaks and my this and my that. I'm like, it's a chore. Look at you. You look miserable. And it's like, yeah. And it's so, I think the longevity of this, I hope there's going to be a U-turn at some point where people are going to understand that, you know, our very efficient lives and technology is going to take us backseat to the intimacy of what's so important in our lives today, which is time well spent with people face to face. No, you had named a few, I don't know if you want to call them parenting styles, but your helicopter parent, the lawnmower parent bulldozer parents, or these things that you name in the book, are there more? Yeah. No, I think those are the more common ones. I mean, the very first one that was ever coined as helicopter parenting and then bulldozer and lawnmower have kind of been interchangeable over the years. And those are the ones that you hear most often. And what are the, because there are, I had mentioned earlier, certain statistics show things are better, but then there's other things that seem to be a little alarming. I think it was anxieties and depressions are seem to be on the rise in adolescence. Is that a symptom of the helicopter bulldozer type parent style? I think so. Well, I think it is. It's a combination of stuff. I think it has to do with pressures to perform academically, but I also think like we're talking about technology, I think socially and emotionally, constant contact and social media is creating also an undertone of anxiety that you don't have that many friends or you weren't included in something or I don't look like that. So I think it's definitely a combination. And Lisa and I have done some wonderful lectures at some of our schools to reach a lot of parents around what anxiety actually is, what it looks like, how to manage it and what our role is in helping kids. So, so, so something else I've seen, you know, there was my kid's school, my daughter now, she's in elementary school, and they do these like shooter drills where they lock the kids and they have to get in a certain room and turn the lights off or, you know, I've heard now there's a term called eco anxiety where children are anxious over the climate or over big problems. These are big issues that are super complex for adults to handle. And little kids, I hear my daughter getting freaked out about them. Do you think we're just over informing them with things that maybe they shouldn't, you know, necessarily be afraid of because it's out of their control? Do you think that's an issue? I mean, they're definitely saturated with information. Because I never watched the news when I was a kid, but all of a sudden my kids, well, think about on their iPhone right there. You've got alerts coming up all the time. I mean, you can't get away from it. Right. It's, you know, tickers are across your phone and notifications. I mean, you really can't step away from it anymore. So there is, I think, a real high saturation factor now. And I think the best thing, I was asked this question maybe a month or so ago. And, you know, I think that, you know, how do you handle all the negativity that's in the world when you're a parent? I think it's age-appropriate. It's like anything else, you know, you're not going to talk to your four-year-old about 9-11, but you're going to understand and help them understand that there are things in the world that are scary and concerning and, you know, that you need to be mindful of and give them the tools to deal with those things as they can handle them depending on their age. And I think since 9-11, really, I've been in practice for, you know, way before 9-11. And I think that things like Columbine and 9-11, it's induced a certain kind of anxiety I had never seen before in kids and parents, separation anxiety, a child being anxious to be left at school or a parent anxious to leave their child at school. I do think there is a level of over-informing for sure. However, you know, it's funny we were having this conversation with my parents. My mom and dad had bomb shelter by, you know, practice in their school. When they were kids, they had to learn how to crawl under their desk in case of a bomb. That's true. Like it would have helped. Right. Exactly. But I do think, you know, for my generation, we really never went through stuff like that. So we had a fire drill. That was about it. That was all we ever had. But we have looped back around to a period of time where I do think kids are being exposed to things like my parents' generation. Because the irony is, I mean, for all intents and purposes, as far safer today than it was when we were growing up, kidnappings are lower, violence is actually lower. We're not at the threat of thermonuclear war like we were for much of the Cold War. But I think the perception's not that. I think if you go out and you take a random group of 100 people and you ask them, hey, was it safer today for you to go play outside by yourself? Or was it safer back in 1975 or 1985? Most people said, oh, it was way safer back then. Statistically speaking, it wasn't. It's actually safer today. The perception is off. But it's all relative to the age that we're living in and the issues that we're dealing with nowadays. I mean, we have terrorism now where we didn't. We had, it was the two superpowers that were the big issue and who was going to push the button first. And now we're worried about getting on planes. Well, there were terrorists then too. I mean, there were hijackings. There were 1978 with the hostage. Sure. And we had domestic terrorism. We had several domestic terrorist groups that were performing bombings and we had civil rights leaders being assassinated. And I feel like we're just terrified even though it's way safer today. And I think that that could be causing issues. Well, I think if you turn on the news, what do we see? I can't watch the 10 o'clock news. My husband puts it on and I, that is when I allow myself to go on my phone because I cannot tolerate, you know, this one got shot here. This one got hijacked here. Oh, this child was beaten here. I think, you know, we don't necessarily hear about enough of the good stuff, although there is, there is. Well, we tune into the bad stuff. Right. We do shock value. I don't. I work so hard not to, because what does it do? It heightens your anxiety. It heightens your fears and your worries. And I have kids who have been definitely impacted by their environment. And so you got to keep, for me, I feel like again, we're only in control of what we're in control of. So take the, you know, management in your own home and determine how much you want to inform your kids. Yeah, like, like we were using the social media example before where, you know, it's, it's more rare to see people with six pack abs and statistically than it is to have to, for millionaires, people don't realize that they think everybody's got a six pack. A reality is almost nobody does. But if you're on social media, you know, our primitive brains, what I mean by primitive is they evolved where our minds made judgments based off of what we were around. And we placed ourselves in hierarchies and we saw how, okay, I see, I know how tall I am compared to everybody else in the tribe, where I see how wealthy everybody is or whatever. But then when you're on social media, now it's like going to a, like have you guys ever seen in real life a seven foot tall person? I think I have once. My cousin is like six, nine or six, eight, but not seven. It's super rare. But if you watch the NBA all the time, you think, you think you were tiny if you were six foot three. And so I think what happens is, you know, kids are seeing news happening all over the world. And they're exposed. And so their brain perceives it as, this is my neighborhood. This is what's going on. Oh, my gosh, this is really scary. When, when you actually, they did a study, it's a famous study years ago when Jaws came out and public perception of shark attacks skyrocketed. Everybody thought shark attacks and newspapers were reporting shark attacks. Everybody thought, oh my gosh, everybody's getting attacked by sharks. Shark attacks are extremely consistent year over year. They don't go up. They don't go down there. But our perceptions made us feel terrified. And I feel like that, that may be happening a little bit with, with kids, just cause they're like over informed with stuff that's really complex. Well, I think they're over informed with stuff for sure. But it's also, social media has done this incredible thing. It's reduced the size of the world. We're all, we're all right in the thick of all of it together. What's going on in Syria, what's going on in, anywhere in Europe, I mean, all over the world, places that were just so far removed from our life and our, our, you know, our lens are now on top of us 24 hours a day. So it's, it's like we're kind of carrying the weight of everything that's happening around us. And our kids are doing that. And they're internalizing that. And I think our generation, you know, for, for instance, Debs and my generation, you know, you're hyper-intuned to it, and then your kids are hyper-intuned to it. And there's a total trickle down effect in parenting. And that's, you know, that's another thing we talk a ton about in the book is that we're modeling all this stuff. Like you guys are modeling this for your kids. We're modeling for our kids and, you know, how they see us handle conflict and, and adversity and, and the good stuff and, you know, our relationship with our spouse, I mean, and our friendships, they're watching everything. They don't, they don't miss a thing. But it's like that old, you know, that old saying, whatever you think your kids are capable of, they're actually capable of so much more. It's the same thing goes for what they're observing. They take everything in. So what's the most, I guess, would you consider be more of the more important chapters in the book, one where you think that it's going to really make kind of the biggest impact on people? For me, when I look at the book towards the end, it's walk the walk and talk the talk, talk the walk. You get the point, talk the talk and walk the walk. I think to go off of what Lisa was just saying, which is I do think that you need to be really careful about pointing a finger and saying, my child, when people call me and say, Oh, my eight year old is having a problem and will you work with them? They're not behaving in the home and they're not listening to me. I often sit with the parents first. What is going on in the home? What is the behavior management like there? Are there rules? Are there limits? Or is this child is showing you that they're having a hard time because there aren't any clear expectations or rules. And so it's really, in my opinion, really important. Is it ever the kid? Is it ever, right? Honestly, I know it is. Sure it is. So what it then turns into is parents putting in place behavior management in ways that the child understands. There's expectations, it's concise, and there's a system in place. So for me, I do feel as though, for parents, if you don't want your child on their phone 24 seven, you can't be on your phone. Lay it down. You've got to walk that walk. And the other thing, one of my favorite, well, one of my favorite lines in the book is we've got to hold the line. That's what we have. That's our job as parents. It is so difficult to hand out that consequence or to maintain that presence when you just want to be soft and you want to give in. And the most, I think, one of the most important things that we can do in the way that we model our behavior is to follow through, be consistent. If X happens, well, then why is going to happen? And you're responsible for that. So we have to follow through and kind of lay it down and keep it consistent. Talk is cheap. This kind of means you have to be careful when you set the consequences. Oh yeah. If you do that, you're grounded for a year. I can't tell you how many times that your kid really pisses you off, especially when they get older. They just nail you from all sides and you get so fresh fed up and you just lay it down like you're not using the car for two months. And then they're like, well, I guess you're gonna get up and drive me to work and pick me up at the train. And then you're like, damn it. Damn it. Dave will look at me and say, what did you just say? I call up the good stuff list. Parents like, what do you mean? Well, you create a list of stuff that your child likes, some good stuff, going out with friends, buying something off of the internet, whatever their good stuff is, screen time. And you look at that good stuff list and sadly, you use it to your advantage so that when something does happen and you set the term, you set the expectation. And then if it's not met, then when they're little, then you're gonna lose a story. You're only gonna get two, not three. And when it's 10 years old, it's sorry, you're not gonna get your Xbox time. And when it's 15 and 16, 17, sorry, you're not gonna be able to go out Friday night or you're not gonna be able to take the car. And so it's learning what matters to them. And I always have a saying with kids, you earn a reward, but you also earn a consequence. So you pick. If you don't want to do it, you earn this. And if you want to do it, then you earn that. My parents were horrible at this. They thought they were supposed to be consistent with the discipline on all of us on what they took away or how they punished. And so the overarching thing for the whole family was, you do something wrong, you're grounded to your room. Well, that fucking tortured me because I'm a social kid and I could hear the kids playing outside and it was like nails on the chalkboard and I'd cry in my room all day. My sister on the hand is extremely introverted, loves to sit in her room and play with her dolls all day long. So punishment was like it fucking was nothing for her. But that's a really good point because every child needs something different. And we talk about that in the book that what I have three boys, they are very different. What motivates them is different. What is meaningful to them is different. And so when you're thinking about a consequence or a reward, it's gonna you need to tailor it to each child because it really is, like you said, perfect example, like you being locked in your room and your sister wasted on her. She said herself, she was grounded for a day. She's staying there for another day. Exactly. And so it is important to treat each kid differently because they all need something. Now you guys go around and you'll lecture a lot. And so you obviously get a lot of feedback from other parents. What do you think is what do you think the hardest thing for you guys to communicate is to these parents? Like what do you keep hearing? And it's like we try that we say this and I feel like I have to like a broken record. Well, for me, it's the be gentle to yourself. I think that the title of the book is so important to look at because our children aren't perfect and neither are we. And if we and more importantly, when we make a mistake, it's not awful. You have to loop around and find a way to repair the mistake. So if you said something, you did something, you behaved in a way that you're less than happy with the outcome, you have every opportunity as long as you take it to loop around, come back to your child and explain, I'm sorry I raised my voice. I'm sorry I swore. I'm sorry I, you know, dumped your drawers out on the middle of your bedroom floor, but this is what got triggered in me. This is what happened in me. I'm sorry. However, I got to this point because and so it's repairing that. And so for me, I just can't impress upon parents enough that you are human. You will make mistakes. We drop balls. We're supposed to drop balls. That's such a good point. Self-compassion is really important. Sal shares a story on the podcast. He's talked about a couple times, one of the first times that he came unglued in front of both of his kids and it was because somebody threw a black basketball at the back window of his car as he's driving by and his daughter was in there. And he pulled over and got out and fucking chased the kids, slammed the basketball hoop and just gorilla dad came out protecting his daughter, right? It sounds not a small guy. Right. And everybody probably, you know, thinking that goes like, fuck, yeah, I would do the same thing too. But then he gets back in the car and you know, the other, the other, his son is kind of scared and you know, why did you do that dad? And dad explains the, well, they endangered daughter or whatever. And son goes, well, don't you think you put us in more danger by pulling over and doing that? And I think that the biggest lesson in that story is when at the end of it, he apologizes, you were right. You know, I did make a mistake and I acted out and when he tells that story, when he tells that story, I think what hits home for me is, you know, I remember my parents probably making a lot of mistakes from him. I don't have a lot of memories of them coming to me and admitting that they made mistakes. And I feel like so many parents have that ego issue where they, you know, they say something or do something and it's like, oh, because on the parent and even if they fuck up and they go over a line, they don't, they don't think that they can come back and say, you know what, even though you're the child, you're right, I was wrong. But that's one of the most important things that we can do for our kids is to show them that we're fallible. Like we can screw up, we can drop balls, we can rally and, and recover and apologize and acknowledge. That's, that's one of the things is to own it. That's, that's a big chapter in the book. That's one of my favorites is that we, we need to own these behaviors ourselves, the good ones and the bad ones. But you also want to nurture in your kids to find their voice as well. So if you do or say something, I remember a big lesson. I learned my oldest son, I think he was probably about 17. He had left the laundry down in the laundry room and I asked him nicely once, can you just bring it up to your room? After about the third time, I flipped and I was like, bring up your damn laundry. It's like a daily thing in my house. You know, and so he looked at me and he said, mom, when you yell at me, I really don't listen. It really is upsetting. And I looked at him and I took a deep breath and I walked away and I caught myself and then I loop back around and I said, you know what, thanks for letting me know that. But I'm yelling because I've asked you three times, is there any value in that for you to understand that? Yeah, no, I get it. But thanks for apologizing because it really, I don't like when you scream at me. No, pick up your fucking laundry. What it teaches kids is mutual respect, which as they grow older at that, you know, when they're older teens, you need to have mutual respect. And if you don't have it, they're not going to listen. Oh, I think you got to let your kids hold you the same standards. I had a time when, you know, I was taking my daughter somewhere and I did something and I said, shit. And I get in the car and she's like, you know, ooh, you know, I heard you say a bad word and I'm still kind of upset. And I'm like, well, yeah, I'm an adult. I can say bad words. You're a kid. You know, you shouldn't be saying those and she's, you know, real quiet for a while. And she goes, yeah, but you probably still shouldn't say bad words in front of little kids. And I said, you're right. That's great. Check for her. Yeah. I said, you're a hundred percent right. I think that's real important. My parents were both pretty good at that. My mom would do that. She'd sit me down and apologize for doing something. And I'd only increased the amount of respect. Oh, it's a thing that it does breed respect because, you know, you're admitting that you're human. You're admitting that you can't get it right 110% of the time. And you're acknowledging your own behavior and how it may have impacted the people around you. But you know what's important too for kids to understand? I'm all about empowering them and helping them find their voice. But when you ask them what they're thinking or how they're feeling, it's wonderful that they share it, but it might not, you know, impact the outcome. You know, I still wanted them to take down the laundry, you know, bring up his laundry. So, you know, I really appreciate that you don't like when I yell at you, but you know what, let's stop. Let's go back to the issue here and that is go get your laundry. And so kids, I want them to, you know, let them say I didn't like that or that upset me or I got hurt by that. It's really important for them to feel hurt. In your practice, Deborah, were there, did you see common challenges that moms would have versus dads? Did you see, because we're all fathers in here. And I, you know, there's a lot of, I mean, let's to be quite honest, if there's far more single moms and single dads out there, we're all very involved with our children's lives. We find a lot of advice given to parents, not a ton of advice to dads. Are there common like challenges you see with moms and dads or is it all kind of the same? I think for the most part it's the same, but I, I think each situation is, you know, can be very different. I work with a lot of dads and moms. And I think one thing that I find dads challenge with the most probably is the, the, the communication, the communication styles and how they kind of navigate their way to loop back around and apologize or to stop and gain a perspective. I just intuitively, I think women and I glow, I'm being generalizing, but we're a lot more emotional and we wear it on our sleeves most of the time. And I'm going to tell you there have been plenty of empathetic dads in my office as well, um, that are just incredibly intuitive and, and capable, but I do find in, in general terms that for dads, I help them slow down and listen. Um, I think just because of how, um, and living in a house full of men is all I've ever done. And I have brothers. I have three boys. I only speak boy. I mean, you know, I do and I get it. And I think, um, built differently, you know, testosterone brings agitation and frustration, reactivity in a different way than maybe a mom, um, uh, a young lady. And so it's learning how to manage that your makeup a little bit differently. I wanted to talk a little bit more in that direction. And we had Dr. Warren Farrell on the show and he talked a lot about the benefits and, and of rough and tumble play and of, uh, I actually had the fortunate, uh, ability to put my kids in this like play school where they actually like instituted this, this whole area designated to rough and tumble play and with boys and girls. And they all had like somebody managing it so it didn't get out of control, but I just thought that was such a great outlet for them because I just don't find that physicality, uh, you know, being allowed anymore in schools and to really like get that energy out. I, you're talking to someone who was putting a full Nelson by your little brother. I mean, you know, I get it. Um, I think that it also is an opportunity for kids to be able to say enough. Exactly. And so I, you know, I'm all about whether it's rough and tumble play or what any kind of play I do. I think it's just breeds an opportunity to be able to say, Hey, look, you know, I don't like when you do that. Or, you know what, my brother held the pillow over my face for too long, you know, could you please say, you know, take it off my head. Um, but yeah, I, I, I agree with that. And I think it's, it makes it okay to be rough and tumble. Um, boys are rough and tumble a lot of them. And so are girls, which is the worst, you know, Oh, I think it's great. I wrestle with my daughter all the time. And I think it's good because like you said, she knows when she's going too hard. I'll tell her, Hey, don't poke in the eye or don't hit too hard or whatever, or we're not going to keep doing this. And she'll stop. So she learns that, but she also learns that she can be physical with a man and it not be, you know, inappropriate. She knows her body, but you know, dad, don't push me here or don't twist my leg or whatever. It's, it's, it's, it's between her, you know, me and her, and it helps her be comfortable with herself. I think that a man can be physical with a girl and it not be sexual. That's right. That's right. Absolutely. And she can develop that voice that allows her to say no, no, that was, that was too much. Totally. Totally. That hurt. Absolutely. I think it's, now what about partners? Cause raising kids oftentimes involves two people, um, you know, or, or more, what about the communication between partners and, and doing so because I think sometimes there's different ideas of where structure should be placed or where there should be lines, how important is the communication between. It's huge. I think, I think having open lines of communication and, and, and being kind of symbiotic in the way that you communicate, you know, if, if you're going to lay it down about something your daughter's not allowed to do. And then all of a sudden she creeps over to mom and she kind of, you know, plays the room and, and tries to get, get mom to flip. Like you have to, there has to be a cohesiveness. Like you're not, you're not supposed to agree on everything. We're never in no relationship. Well, what, what's important to my husband and his priorities are oftentimes different than mine. So he wants things done a certain way or in a timely way. And me, I parent differently and we parent very differently and it's through the years it's a lot around communication, but also with your kids to be able to say, look, if dad told you to do that, go do it. Now I might not think it's an important thing that they have to go and do, but you know what your dad asked you to go help him in the yard, go help him in the yard. And now he wants you now. So I do think I work with, it's a large part of what I do is family work, communication, parenting. And I think one, the biggest issue is that we all bring our legacy into the room, how we were parented, what we witnessed, what we experienced. And that then develops a lot of how we parent. And so I think it's important. I did not grow up in the same home as my husband. So he brings different styles and techniques to the table. And I think as long as they're safe and respectful, you need to create space for each of you to parent the way that you feel comfortable. It's a collaboration. It's like any relationship is whether it's a work collaboration or a friendship. You're always going to do things in a slightly different way and sometimes in a more obvious way that's different from your partner. But it's understanding how to create and maintain respect for each other. And we've always had something in our house between my husband and I where if one of us was neutral about a situation or a decision and the other was really, really adamant and we could back that up and we had a very strong opinion, the other one would defer to that and vice versa. And you're not always going to be in complete sync. I mean, you're lucky if you're almost ever in complete sync, but you do your best to hear what the other person is saying and to understand what's important and to understand what the other person, your partner's strengths and weaknesses are. There are certain things that I know Dave is way better at doing than I am and I've learned so much from him because he's the one who will see the cues when my daughter's, one of them in particular, needs me to leave the room or needs him to leave the room. We've hashed something over and over and over again and Dave's really great about saying, okay, I'm going to come back and we'll talk again when you've calmed down or you have a different state of mind. And it's taken me a long time to do that because I'm the one who just wants to get in there and let's pick it apart and let's find out what's going wrong and let's put it back together and make it work and fix it. And sometimes you can. And so you collaborate with one another and you kind of bring each other's best selves forward. I think it's important to show like a united front. My kids live in two households. I'm divorced, but their mom and I work together quite a bit in raising the kids. And my house will have a partner that I live with. And so we work together. And so it's like, it makes it more difficult, you know, my kids, you know, and so I'm constantly checking like, hey, you know, our son said that he goes to bed at this time with you. Is this true? No, it's not. Four hours later. Yeah. And so it's like, because I want them to see, but then when we have a disagreement, I try and do it away from the kids because I want them to think that we're united blended families. I work with more than ever now. And I think that it is hard. I help parents back up and draw a line and know where their boundary is. So when they're over at moms or they're over at dads, yes, there are things you need to be in sync around, especially when children are young, very young, because they don't know any better or any different. And so when they're hungry, they're hungry. And if they're used to eating at this certain time or around the certain time, you know, see if you can make it work. Of course, it's not going to be perfect. But as kids get older, they do, they can, oh, well, dad said it was fine if I did that. Mom's saying, oh, really? They don't think we talk is the thing that Dave and I'll crack up about it all the time. And as old as our kids are, they literally think we don't communicate with each other. Yeah. And we're clueless. Yeah. The other day, my son's 14. He's a good kid, but he had one of his teenage moments and he, him and his mom got into it. I don't remember what it was over. Oh, he didn't do his chores. And so she took away his, his electronics. And so he was really, really upset and they're going back and forth. And he said, well, I'm just going to go stay with dad because he lets me do whatever I want, which isn't true, but it really, really hurt her feelings. And so she told me, and I, when he came to my house, I took him aside and I had that conversation. And they said, you know, it really hurts your mom's feelings to say something like that because I want them to know that I support her. And it, her and I aren't the greatest of friends or anything, but for the kids' sake, I want them to see that we're working together. Is there any information that you hear being communicated in terms of raising children that is considered true or, you know, common knowledge that you think is probably not that true? Is there anything that's that, you know, the counter maybe actually the truth? I think it's right around making a mistake. They're ruined. Parents come in and go, oh my God, you know, and especially in blended families, right? Oh, their father's ruining them. You know, he's not, doesn't care about homework and this and that. I don't, I think that again, it's all about repair work. Okay. So if, if you think dad's ruining them, you know, what do we have to stop, look at, slow down and repair? And what, you know, do we need to have a conversation? Do we need to have a family meeting? What do we have to do? So for me, mine is, you know, oh, they're ruined. They're not, we have a whole lifetime to repair and make them the best that they can be. Yeah. Yeah. My, my, my partner, she, she did such a good job of communicating this to me. One of my kids did something and I wanted to go fix it or prevent them from making a mistake and she said, let them screw up now because it's better they screw up now than when they're adults. Because we're there, we're there to help them navigate through that. And it doesn't by any means mean that we're there to come in and, and find a solution or implement the solution or handle it for them. We're, we're there to help them navigate. And, and that's why this is that time when they're under our roof and they're, you know, they're, they're more apt to take in our influences and our suggestions that, you know, we need to be there to support that. She's smart in saying that I do this, that metaphor I learned quickly how, what kind of parent I'm working with and quickly ask, you know, if your child is standing in front of a puddle, are you the kind of parent that's going to say to their child, oh, don't go in the puddle and kind of carry them over the puddle? Or are you the parent that says, oh, don't go in the puddle and keep walking. And if they fall in the puddle, you're on the other side of the puddle to be there if they need help getting up. Right? So are you the one who's going to prevent them from going in the puddle? Or are you going to be there to help them if they need it? Yeah, admittedly, I'd be the one to pick them up. Right. And the dilemma that, so that's like a budding lawnmower parent. So that you want them, you know, if they fall in the puddle, they're not going to die, they're going to get wet. But it's, I'd rather them see the impact of their choice than for you to prevent them from having the impact because they're going to go ahead and do it again until they have the impact of the behavior. Now, I've found that a lot of times when somebody writes a book about a topic or you've worked in the field for so many years, sometimes you are the ones that have the greatest adversity or struggles in your own home. And I would love to hear from each of you, what are the challenges you have with each of your kids and how have you overcame it? Wow. Well, we can start with the most recent one. So my youngest, and I don't even know if I'd classify it as a challenge. You know, I'm sure it is on the scale. But so my youngest is 19 and she had two radically different kids. My oldest just graduated from Boston University and it's, you know, super motivated and did all the things and took advantage of everything and groups and clubs and all that and has kind of everything paved in a direction that she's really excited about. And my youngest was never a kid from probably grammar school on who thrived in school and enjoyed school. It was difficult for her. She was challenged. We discovered that she had a learning disability when she was late in the game, like seventh grade. So she just was not an academic kid and went through high school the same way. And, you know, you want to give your child everything that you have the ability to give them in terms of opportunity and skills and, you know, a base. And so naturally the way that our society perceives kind of the growth of our children is you raise them, they go through school, they go off to school, and then they figure out what they're going to do from there. And I guess for me, you know, we always knew that she was hesitant to go off to college and didn't know if it was her thing and wasn't vibing at all and wasn't engaged and really wanting to do it. But she surprised us and she went through the whole process and she applied to schools, got into everything and went to a school one semester, wasn't for her, came home, shocked us again and applied to another school closer to home and went there. And again, just was like, I don't know what I want to do. I don't where I want to be. I don't know if school is even for me. And we struggled with that for a while. It was like, you know, you're already in it, you know, for a year, you can move around again, find another place that maybe suits you a little better. It's not cookie cutter. And it took a while for us to get to that point where we were like, okay, you know what, she said, she put it to us in interesting terms. She's like, look, I've been in school for 13 years of my life. I have no clue what the hell I want to do with my life. I know that I don't thrive in this environment. I want to be in that space and time in my life that comes after school. I want to be in the job. I want to be working. I want to be producing. I want whatever it is. And so, you know, that was a really big challenge for us, for me in particular, was to say, okay, you know what, you're 19 years old, you gave it a try. And now I'm going to practice what I preach, which is that it's not a one size fits all world for any of us. Forget about like the whole parenting game. I mean, in general, in life, there is not one size fits all. And so for me, that was a big struggle. And for Dave, just letting her drive that bus, which is, we talk a lot about that too, that that's one of the biggest gifts that we can give our kids is to let them just to move over and let them kind of take the wheel and navigate. And this was one of those times. And it was a challenge. And she found herself an incredible job. And she's a full time nanny for this great family and doing a ton of different things. And now she's came to us and she's thinking, maybe I might go back and take some classes. And so she kind of came around, we let it be. And she kind of came around to it, but it was a challenge to begin with. And we just kind of stayed unified and trusted her. And here we are. So yeah, good deal. Yeah. I think that if somebody said they didn't have a problem, they'd be lying. That's why I had to ask. I mean, I think that everyone has something. And I think for me, kind of an overarching thing for me as a parent is when my see my child making a decision or a judgment that is less than perfect and being able to stay on the sidelines and be an observer and let them see that poor decision through and watch it impact them in a bad way. What does that look like? I mean, give me an example. Give me an example of like the last like, Oh fuck, he's gonna, this is gonna hurt, but I'm gonna. Yeah, I mean, I think part of it is like, I think of academics, for example, like with my youngest, I have two of three kids, one has ADHD and one has ADD. And both very brilliant kids, but didn't have the executive functioning that was matching their intellect. And so we, one of them, their behaviors were getting in the way of their learning. And so we ended up getting them tested and learned he was this very bright kid who was very bored and distracting and distracted and had some organizational issues. And so at a very young age, had to begin managing that with him. And now I think the harder part is letting him manage it on his own. So for example, stepping back his first semester of college, he decided maybe I don't need my medication that I've been using. And we, hey, he's, you know, 18 going off to college. It's a decision that you have to make. And he went through a really tough time of academic output. And it wasn't going so well. And I just simply asked, Hey, have you taken your medication? No. And I was like, huh, what do you think? Huh. So second semester, he had taken a break. He was home. We sent him back with his medication and he started taking it and noticed what it was like off it, what it was like on it. And so now he's really become a much better navigator in regards to his own medication and when he needs it and when he doesn't, but it was really hard. And so we're going through this with my youngest, who is again, a really bright kid, ADD, not ADHD. And so he's got a little bit of a different thing going on, but freshman year medication really impacted him. He's my creative kid, the musician we were talking about earlier. And he didn't like how he felt and who he was. And he's, this year we started and he goes, I'm not going to take it. I said, all right, I have to stop. I know what a medication does for him, but I'm not a pill, pill pusher. And so, you know what? I'm going to have to step back and all, all the things I knew, organizational details, not writing assignments down, not turning them in, all of these things just were flooding in the front of my brain. And I thought, you know what? He's a sophomore in high school. I got to let him navigate this. And so I step back and he, I think is working harder than he ever has because he wants to succeed off it. And so yes, has he maybe dropped a ball or two? Yes, but he's learning how not to do that. Although again, we're perfectly imperfect. So he's going to drop them and being okay with it. So how does it look and how does it feel for a parent? It is hard. It sucks. You have to breathe through it. You have to remind yourself that eventually he's going to need his own wings. And if I'm the one kind of navigating the way, he's never going to grow them. On the topic of ADD and ADHD. Yeah, tough one. So repeat that. I wasn't paying attention. I'm just kidding. That was good. That was a bottom bump. Dad joke. And, you know, being a parent that has two kids that are challenged with this, do you come from the camp that this is on an incredible rise right now? Or has this been something that's been around for many years and we're just now starting to diagnose kids? Yes. And also, do you think that there's something environmentally that is impacting them for this to seem almost exaggerated now? It's so crazy the amount of kids that are being diagnosed. It's like everyone's being diagnosed with it. Yeah. I think we've just found a name for a system. So there are different parts to ADD and a very big part of it is what we call executive functioning. And what we're learning in our teaching through in schools is that there are ways to test and understand when a child isn't organized or missing assignments or not rushing through their work and not getting things right. There's names for that now. Whereas back when I was a kid, you were sloppy. You were irresponsible. You were lazy. You were all these things. Now there's just, you know, fortunately ways of evaluating a child's performance. And so being in schools, if a child starts flagging, I call it red flag, that he's not turning in assignments or paying attention to detail or things like that, we red flag it. And then they go through a system of being tested to then understand and I'm from the camp of knowledge is power. If a child is struggling with these things, I don't necessarily worry about the label, but I'm going to work with them to build a toolbox and a skill set to then manage what it is we've learned as a deficit for them. So I'm all about understanding if a child is like one of my kids has like a very low active working memory, which means if you ask him to put his name on a paper number it one through 10, and then, you know, fold it in half and put your pencil down, he's going to get maybe one or two of those things, but not all of them. And so knowing that I'm going to help him understand he has to self-advocate like you just said, I'm sorry, I wasn't paying attention. I didn't, you know, can you repeat that? It's helping them then understand. Yeah, I need to self-advocate and ask, okay, I only got the first two parts of that. What's next? And helping teachers understand it's not a child being irresponsible or lazy. It's a child who does struggle with memory and retention. So I, is there any fear for you as a parent, the addictive properties that come with things like Adderall and Ritalin? So just a little personal story myself. I never experienced Adderall, Ritalin, any of those drugs until I got into my mid-30s. And holy shit, they're awesome. And why they're probably awesome for someone like me, and I think Sal can probably speak to this too, is I believe, well, yeah, right. And I also believe that, so I've, I just grew up not, you know, being bored in school. If I applied myself, I crushed. I was an A student. If I loved the class and I was into it, if I wasn't, I could easily fail the damn class. Even in my success and work, I found really early on that if it was something that I was into and I liked, I crushed. If it was something like an organization and, you know, crossing the T's, dotting the I's and ugh, I mean, I just would just ignore it and not do it. And so I spent most of my life trying to figure out ways to create better habits, behaviors, to develop these skill sets, also focusing on the things that I'm already good at. So I would become great at it, not worrying about the things that maybe I'm not very strong in. And so I've had to teach myself how to do that. And because of that, I think that I've had a lot of success in my life of overcoming some of those challenges. But I have, and again, I've dabbled with using these things. And I'm like, holy shit, if I take, if I have to, like, for example, we have to write a lot of content in this business. And we, if we got to sit down and I got to write a ton of content, boy, if I take one of those, I mean, I can, I'm on fire, but that I'm also a very self aware person and go, whoa, this is so awesome that I could see myself taking more and more and more. Is there any fear of that? There's always, I think there's always a fear of that. I mean, I have a daughter who, you know, both of my daughters as well have ADD and my oldest, the one who just graduated, found out maybe only two years ago when she was in college that she had ADD. And as a result, went on medication. And it, there was a whole journey involving that, that piece of, you know, of her life just finding the right medication and what wound her up or what really mellowed her out and didn't work and caused, you know, kind of personality changes. And, you know, she definitely went through a whole process of trying to find the right one. And once she did, she, she got to that point where for her, like you're saying, it's, it was an awakening. She was like, holy crap. I, it's like I flipped this switch and all of a sudden I have the capacity to do these things that, that I couldn't do before. And it's liberating and it's exhilarating. And, and yeah, you, you know, you definitely as a parent looking at a child, medicate like that, you definitely worry that, that, oh my God, can they function without it? Right. My question to myself was, is it, was this something that I couldn't do before or I'm just challenged? Yeah. I think that I'm a believer that oftentimes medication can drive a diagnosis, which means that for someone who is an ADD and it's taking that medication, it has a different feel and a different impact than for the person who's taking it for the purpose. And so for people who are just taking it and not technically struggling with any of these things and a lot of college kids take it and it's speed right there, but they're racing their brain. Whereas someone who has ADD, ADHD, their brain needs the speed to, to actually bring the brain activity, the activity up to a certain level so that they don't need any more distraction or stimulation. So for them, it's a different feeling. It's a different experience and it's used in a different way. Now for yourself, you know, it's, it's a very, Adderall is probably one of my least favorite medications. I have one son who will take it periodically when there's as needed, as needed, which is my youngest one. And I think that you have to be very aware of the side effects and it's good dialogue to have. I sat them down and like, if you're going to use this, this, if you ever feel these things, I want to talk about it. Plus I'm, I have a pulse on that, right? We have a pulse on our kids. But it is scary. Like a lot of things in life, anything is addictive, right? People have addictions to food and alcohol and sex and porn and, and gambling and all, right? So it's just another thing that goes into that tool. I think I use it as a tool in my practice. So for me, that was it. I gave my kids a tool to put in their toolbox. And if they thought they could benefit from it, I wanted them to have the ability to reach into the toolbox. And it's ironically how they both use it now. When you start to kind of recognize that your kid might have trouble learning within that environment. So that, that structured environment of sitting down and trying to sit still and try to memorize things and, and produce a good grade. How many times have you gone through with parents of like exploring other options? Like the, there's other ways to get education in terms of, I forget the name of like some of these different options of different schooling principles. Like even if it's, I know we- Responsive classroom and things like that. Right. Or you're out, you're more hands-on, is more visual based. That's right. Montessori. Montessori, thank you. Montessori school. And, you know, I think it is so important if your child is at risk, if their problems get in the way of their development, you need to think about where you're placing them. I work in all different schools. And one of the big questions that come up is, is this really the best place for your child? And I think, you know, and a lot of these are private schools and they're like, well, we need the body. No, actually the body needs a different environment. And so they understand that. So at a young age, I think it isn't, it's up to us to help them navigate the environment that we put them in so that they can succeed. And when kids get to the high school level, it's, I mean, we happen to be in an area in the world where we have a plethora of options and education. I mean, just ridiculous amounts of schools and different types of learning environments. And I think it is important to find the one that's best for your child. But it's, it's even more than that too. That's a huge piece of it. But if you're in, let's say even a socioeconomic situation that you've got, you've got a public school and that's your only option. You don't, you can't afford private. You can't afford Montessori. You can't deviate or charter. Then it becomes an issue of understanding as a parent or as an educator that you're, we all learn in such different ways. Some of us are visual learners, auditory learners, hands-on learners. And I know as the mother of two daughters who had radically different, I mean, like night and day, different kinds of styles. My oldest could sit down and bury herself and immerse herself and be there for hours and hours and hours and was the one that could read the 200 pages and absorb it and process it. And then my youngest, in fact, Deb and I were just talking about this yesterday, that I used to have to break down reading assignments. Like if my daughter, my youngest, had to read, you know, like a summer reading book and you'd get like your three or four books that you had to read. And I'd make it about math. Like, okay, well, we've got, there are, you know, 60 days until school is back in session. And you've got, you know, this number of books, this many pages, let's divide it out. You don't have to sit down and read 400 pages at a time. Let's read 10 pages at a time. So it's all about, even if we don't have the ability to pick those options of other institutions, we at least understand that there are so many different ways that we can teach our children how to learn and flesh out the ways that they learn best. What's the age gap between the two again? Mine. Yeah. My youngest is 19. My oldest is 22. Okay. Do you, do you think that there was any sort of difference on how they used like social media and tools like that? Yeah, definitely. In fact, it's funny, we talk about this in my house from time to time that even with a gap as, as short as three years, my oldest can leave her phone on her desk, go downstairs and play the piano for three hours, or, you know, sit on the couch, read a book, do something completely separate from social media, her phone devices, and not think twice about it. My youngest, it's, I mean, she would sooner lose an actual arm than a phone. It would, that would be the thing that she would sacrifice the body part as opposed to the phone. And, and it's just in a matter of those few years where even in the way that, that my oldest and my youngest engage with people, we talked about, you know, a while ago when we first sat down, we were talking about how, you know, my youngest, her generation, they're the ones that'll text all afternoon until their plans are made. And instead of picking up the telephone, my oldest will pick up the telephone and has no hesitation to just call a friend. So, yeah, even though it's a three year difference and that's not huge, it, it was, it translated to a pretty big gap in the way that they utilize. Sometimes, sometimes I wonder if that's what feeds into this distractibility for these kids, especially if you're somebody who's diagnosed with- I see it in schools a lot that kids get bored very easily during lectures because they're not as stimulating as, as, you know, looking at a phone, it's very stimulating and constant and scrolling through and seeing tons of images and information being thrown at you. And I think that it does, it does impact the teacher. They cannot compete with the technology. They're up there, they're giving their lecture and, you know, you're learning about World War II. You know, it's, it's not as exciting. And so they are up against oftentimes a lot of discussions around how do we compete with and how do we engage kids in a way that we can get to them and reach them because they really, you know, they really aren't interested in the same way as they used to be because they, you know, be playing Mario Kart and catching all the coins. My boys turned me on to it. I play Mario Kart. Yes, I do. The other thing that I think kind of jives with that, that whole technology piece is the, is the sense nowadays that, or it's not even a sense, it's just the reality nowadays that, that this generation or my youngest generation has to have everything in real time immediately, has to, has to have the answer, has to have the contact, has to, yeah. Amazon Prime. Amazon Prime, yeah, that's right. And that's been. The drive-thru generation. Yeah. Like I'm, if I wanted, I'm just going to drive up to that building and ask for it. And I'm going to get it on the other side of the building. I saw, I saw a McDonald's commercial last night. It actually made me laugh that, I mean, if McDonald's wasn't fast enough already, right, and you didn't have a drive, now they have the app. Yeah, like Dunkin' Donuts. You can order, order pay and it's ready as soon as you get there. Like it's like, wow, we, we, it's, we can't sit. We don't know how to wait anymore. Yeah, I know. And I think we all, we all grew up in the, the, get online, right, took 15 minutes just to get connected to online. Yeah, your mode only. Your mode only. Your dial-up was, yeah, it was a death. Yeah. What's, what's your, what is your hope with this book? What do you, what do you hope it help it does for people? You know, we want to start a movement. I mean, too many parents, and I say this all the time, too many parents now are just wrapped so tightly around the axle of life and, and of, you know, their kids achieving and them achieving and they're paying more attention to what's going on outside their house and their family unit. And, and they're, they're so worried that if, if anything isn't done at the highest possible level that their kid is screwed and their future is screwed and their failure as a parent. So, you know, we, we see this, you know, you see a lot of parenting books out there and not to shit on any of them because, you know, they're all valuable, but they, you know, there's one X factor that most books out there don't focus on. And that's the fact that it's okay to screw up. It's okay. Life is messy. That's right. As a kid, as a parent, and, and we really, I mean, that's, that's been my ultimate goal. Deb's ultimate goal is, is to remind parents that, and kids that, you know, it's, it's okay to, you know, be in a different lane. It's okay to get there at a different time. It's okay. We don't all ride a bike, learn how to ride a bike on the same day. And, you know, we, we would love to create a movement around this notion that it's, it's all right to drop balls. It's okay to be imperfect. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's okay to, you know, have a moment and then recover from that moment and move on. So that's, that's. And that imperfection doesn't mean it does not equal lack of success. You know, parents are so worried about that. And I try and help them understand even messing up is adding to their, um, success that they're going to learn something from it, which is going to make them a better person. Right. Also try and define success, you know. Yeah. Success for me. Honestly, when people ask me that question, I first, without your health, you have nothing, right? Um, their happiness. And I hope that they get to do something that they love to do each and every day like I do. And there you go. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. Oh, it's a pleasure. Thanks for having us. Thank you. Great time, guys. Thank you.