 O yes. Ydych chi, wrth gwrs, I welcome everyone to the justice committee's 21st meeting, 2014. I can ask everyone to switch off mobile phones and other electronic devices, because and even if the switch decide an interview with broadcasting. No apologies have been received. I move on to item 1 women offenders. It is this evidence session on progress with implementing the commission on women offenders recommendations and I welcome to the meetingchuckles, kenna mона week, Cabinet Secretary for Justice Colin Mcconnell, chief executive of the Scottish Prison y Serviw a Andrew Bruce, Deputy Director of the Justice Division of the Scottish Government. Is this your first visit, Mr Bruce? Can I understand, cabinet secretary, that you would like to make some opening remarks for and move on to questions? I welcome that opportunity to reflect and progress it has been made since the Commission on Women Offenders reported in 2012. We made it a manifesto commitment to implement an independent byddwn i'r ydydd gynnig o'r unig o'r gweithio sydd o'r sylwyddiadau economonig, ond wedi'i gweithio i gweithio i'r cymryd i'r iawn i gwaith ysgrifftracellau i'r cymryd i ddangos. Felly, y cwrs mae'r prydau phobl o'r cymryd yn cael pethau pantam赶t. Y prydau cwrs mae'r cymryd yr ysgrifftracellau i'r gweithio i'r cymryd i'r gwahol yn eu hwyl. to extremes. I called upon the SPS to prepare to plans in response to the commission's recommendations. The SPS conducted a public consultation to examine the appropriate options, while still being mindful of the need to deliver improvements in a timely and cost-effective way. I have accepted the plans that the SPS has prepared, and this is clearly the best way forward for Scotland's prison service to respond to the commission's aims. It is important to recognise that the commission's recommendations for the prison service were not just about reducing the size of the female prison population. The SPS plans will deliver a new national facility for women prisoners, including all the positive attributes that the commission advised. It will also provide for facilities in the north, west and east of Scotland to allow short-term and remanned prisoners to be located closer to their families. In the meantime, the SPS has also made significant investments and improvements to Cortenvale. The current female prison population is 440, down from its highest levels in 2012, so the overall design capacity of 450 is justified, not just to manage the female population in the short and medium term, but to ensure that in the future we will be placing female prisoners in facilities that will be able to meet their needs and aid their rehabilitation. However, this does not change our determination to reduce the female prison population over time. For the majority of women offenders, community sentences will provide a robust means to ensure that they are made to pay back to their community for their offending. I agree with the commission's aims to build up community-based services that are in tune with the needs of women. We have allocated £3 million over 2013-15 to support the development of new and improved community justice services that reflect that, and we have now given funding to 16 projects of various sizes supporting the plans of local justice partners. In larger cities we have supported the development of centralised projects in the style of the commission's justice centre. In smaller towns and rural areas we have supported other projects that reflect the commission's principles of co-ordinated multi-agency working, which are proactive in engaging women and understanding their concerns. For example, where one centre would struggle to reach all the women across a region, a number of new projects are delivering outreach services that will work from several locations and take their services and support out to women in their local communities. In addition to projects that we have directly supported, we have been encouraging co-ordination between other local projects and services that are developing to respond to the needs of women who offend. The SHINE mentoring service for women offenders is now well-established and delivering practical one-to-one support for hundreds of women, whether leaving prison, on remand or at risk of offending. The £2.7 million funding for SHINE in 2012-15 has now been extended up to 2017 following the recent extension of the Reducing Reoffending Change Fund. As I wrote in the Government's formal response to the commission, I expected that it would take hard work and time to effect the improvements proposed by the commission, and this is proving to be the case. I trust that the committee will recognise the substantial steps that have been so far made to implement the commission's recommendations, but our work on this issue is far from complete and we are ready to keep working on the challenges still to come. The cabinet secretary. Questions? I'll take Alison first, please. Thank you very much, convener, and I thank the committee for responding to my suggestion that we do take the opportunity at this stage to take stock of what's happening in the women's prison they stay ahead of what's going to be a very significant investment, and I'm grateful to the committee for finding time for us to do that. The Angelina report made two very distinct recommendations. Recommendation 25 said that Contin Vale is replaced with a smaller specialist prison for those women offenders serving a statutory defined long-term sentence and those who present a significant risk to the public. Recommendation 27, most women prisoners on remand or serving short-term sentences are held in local prisons to improve liaison with local communities and reintegration once their sentence is complete. Can I ask the justice secretary to explain in some more detail why he has departed from that suggestion model? Well, we've not. What we have is a national centre that will be HM Prison Inverclyde. We will also have local facilities there for the women from the west of Scotland and equally we've ensured that in Edinburgh for the east there is the facilities that we're referred to as the local ones and indeed in HM Prison Grampian for the north. So the numbers are comparable and the same and as I say we have delivered the national facility that's necessary to replace Contin Vale but ensured the provision of local services for the west, east and north which I think meets the geographical requirements in Scotland. Can I ask the cabinet secretary? We had press reports in 2013 that the cost of the new prison would be around £60 million. What's the current estimate for that now? The actual projected cost for Inverclyde is £75 million. I'm not aware of the £60 million in a sense that the £75 million for us has always been the funded envelope. That's fine. Can we turn to the actual design of the prison then? How will perhaps another take a step back? Can I ask Mr McConnell how many currently in the prison estate across the whole of Scotland and the women's prison estate fall into the category of serving a long-term sentence and those who present a significant risk to the public? In terms of women, I'm afraid I don't have that information at the fingertips. I did check this morning that there are 442 women in our custody. Regrettably I didn't ask how that was broken down. Perhaps you can break down. In terms of presenting a significant risk again, that's a very particular issue. I'd rather do some research on that. I'd be very happy to do that. Is the design of the prison set up in such a way that these are distinct separate units? The justice secretary has said that you haven't departed from the recommendations that you're going to have a local prison in Inverclyde. You're also going to have this national specialist prison. Are those separate units completely? The design of Inverclyde, in a sense, is to ensure that the arrangements, all the facilities that we provide, all the services that we can provide, not just within the prison but from the community in terms of in-reach as well, can have the maximum impact on all the women. I think that there are some dangers in answering your question directly. I think that there are some dangers in trying to segment women in our care in that way, in that women who have committed offences that one could perhaps make a judgment and say that presents more risk to the public than perhaps another sentence is not any measure necessarily of the amount of service or support that that individual might require. The design of Inverclyde is to make the environment as amenable as it possibly can be to all the various demands and requirements of the whole of the population who have gone to reside there for a period of time. In terms of whether or not we are building to projections, the Howard league in the response to has said that there is particularly a concern that prison forecasters are at the risk of triggering a self-fulfilling prophecy and that we get locked into that pattern of dealing with offenders in that way. How do you respond to that concern? I think that those are legitimate concerns and whether we work in the prison service or whether we are out there in the community, we should be concerned that we have a custodial facility, a custodial service in Scotland that is big enough and robust enough to respond to the needs of the courts, but not so big that it is unwieldy or unnecessarily costly. In terms of what we are proposing and therefore what is being provided, my judgment for that matter, having been in the business for 30 years, is that the size and shape of the custodial provision in Scotland is about right. Some of our stock is aged and we would like to see that replaced but in appropriate time. However, in terms of the question that is facing us here today in terms of the women's provision, if you take it that we have 442 women in custody today and our proposed capacity is 450 with a contingency of 50 beyond that but not in general operation, one might conclude that our proposal is absolutely on a scale basis about right for what we are currently managing. Like many others, I might sound odd as chief executive of the prison service but I would like to see fewer people in custody and more people in the community. I think that that is a journey that we are on but we have to be careful and make sure that the custodial provision is big enough and sustainable enough to service our courts to make sure that the communities are able to be kept safe. The interrelationship between community disposals and the appropriate resources there with the prison are great. There are so many links between them and yet the resources that are being shared out are not very equal so we are talking about £75 million for the prison and I am most grateful that we are building a new prison. We have only given £3 million this year and the following year to building up the community disposal and maybe come to that in a moment but I would like to finish a bit more about the design of the prison. I know that you took some soundings and looked at international best practice on the design of the prison but can you point to anything that you have brought to the design that comes from that experience? As you know, we not only looked at international exemplars but we entered into an extensive period of public and professional consultation and we have drawn all of that together to inform the design at Inverclyde and of course also the regional unit at Edinburgh as it is designed. I think that what we have recognised and therefore what the future holds for us is space that is vibrant and interactive and space that can be used both privately where that is appropriate but also spaces and opportunities to bring women together who have common and particular needs but we also want the space at Inverclyde and at Edinburgh to be available to the community, not just in terms of the community coming in but to be a shared space where all the service providers can come together to make sure that there is that integrated and seamless delivery for the women, many of whom have tremendously complex and disturbed pasts. I think that that is something that I think the design of Inverclyde and the regional unit will certainly provide facilities for communities and service providers to come together. I'll let you back in but I think that I've got a big queue now. I'll let others in. I've got Margaret, then Sandra, then Elaine, then John Finnie, then John Pentland, Margaret. Good morning and thank you for that opening statement. Could I ask what the current thinking of the Scottish Government is on the commission's recommendation that there would be an urgent review of the provision and resourcing of services for women with borderline personality disorders and post domestic stress disorder, given the very high level of mental health issues there are? That work is on-going. We're keeping it under review. We're building upon work that has been done. It's very complex. It challenges those who work in psychiatry. Never mind those who have to deal with it from a prison perspective. It's something that we're trying to see if we have medical science sketched to but build upon the best practice that we have, but I don't know if Andy Watt wants to add anything in addition. One of the key things that we're doing there is our colleagues in the mental health division have funded NHS Lothian to do some tests of the sorts of treatments that are likely to be effective in that way. I think that we're halfway through a two-year programme of research that's going on there. It's very much at the research stage and not really at a stage where... There's some action research going on, so I think that they're testing out with practitioners as well, but when we had the recommendation, that was the first step before looking at what we might do beyond that. I think that the chief executive wishes to... Just on that. I'm happy for you to chair cabinet secretary, but I like her age obligation. My apologies, convener. Again, I think a really important question. In terms of the service provision within the custodial aspect of criminal justice, it would be useful for the committee to know that I recently visited and spent some time in the Orchard clinic speaking to the staff and the forensic psychiatrists there too about this very issue. I'm pleased to be able to report that I've recently corresponded with John Crichton, who's one of the consultant forensic psychiatrists there, about how they can help us to develop not only the service provision that Andy's talking about, but how we can better inform the training and development of our staff as they become more sensitised and aware of the presenting issues. So I think there's a number of strands moving forward, but I'm able to assure the committee at a practical delivery level that we're actively engaged with the forensic psychiatry community, particularly through the Orchard clinic. I suppose that leads me on to other underlying causes of maybe some of the addictions, the sexual abuse leading to mental health. Just exactly what's going on now when we're looking at this bigger picture sometime in the future. Given that we've talked about these issues for decades now, we've had various reports all saying the same thing that we want to deal with these problems. Can we have some assurance that we're actually working with the prison population now in making some progress in this respect? Well, maybe I'm obviously seeking to work there. I think some of what you're alluding to is probably beyond the skills and resources that the Scottish Prison Service would normally recruit. That's part of why we have academic research, why we have a national health service to look at that. The prison service comes from a particular perspective. It's for them to ensure that the best possible information is made available, but in terms of finding a solution, in terms of people who may have suffered deep trauma, I think that's something that goes quite a lot wider and deeper than simply the prison population, but I don't know whether Colin and Andy wish to add any more. I welcome the question in particular in relation to women who offend and end up in our care. It's one of the most difficult challenges that we face and not just to rehearse some of the answer I've already given. We really do recognise that in that space of custody it's not just what we bring to it and our staff bring to it, but it's working with other colleagues in the justice system, in the health system, in the community social support, for community social support, in those arrangements, that we need to work in a more integrated, joined-up way to ensure that there's a seamless package of service delivered to women who've clearly, in a number of cases, had very, very traumatic experiences. I suppose we're really looking about resources because some of this is coming out with the core prison staff and their ability to deliver advice on sexual abuse. I know there have been some pilots in Contenvale dealing with this with some success. Is that on-going just now? Because I'd hate to think that everything was in limbo and that we were focusing sometime in the future and really missing an opportunity to work with the existing prison population, female population. Yes, and again I can give the committee absolute assurance that these are not issues that we simply understand in the ether. These are issues that we are grappling with now today and in terms of the emerging strategy for women in the Scottish prison service, all of those issues that you've mentioned are actively being addressed through the new strategy and we will see increasingly over the months and years to come a more holistic approach to the care of women in custody. Is that happening now? Could I ask about the progress in relation to establishing a pilot for a problem-solving criminal court? Before you get to that, just to follow up, because the NHS took over health delivery within the prison service, what impact has had that on the prisoners? Have you had an audit to see how it's much better now, because I know when it first came in, there was a wee bit of unhappiness from the prison service that the outsiders were coming in. How has that worked in practical terms to improve the health, both physical and mental? You're right, convener. In the early stages, like any big transition, there were difficulties. Looking back two and a half years on now, I think that we would undoubtedly regard it. I think that our NHS colleagues would regard it as a success. There's no doubt about it that healthcare delivery should rest as a responsibility of those who are trained and qualified and organised to deliver it. Certainly, as chief executive of the Scottish Prison Service, I would undoubtedly endorse the approach that the NHS generally is taking to delivery of healthcare in a custodial setting. Undoubtedly, it would be difficult to identify a single way of healthcare delivery in every single prison, but in some ways that's an advantage, because I think that the health boards are delivering services in a way that makes sense for that particular location. Is it better? I think that it probably is. What I'm getting at is the continuity from when someone is discharged and comes out of prison, one would have thought that that would have assisted. One of the things that we heard was certainly from the young offenders. Alison and I heard that they didn't have a GP, they didn't have any, so they came out of prison where there was healthcare and then they just went back into their health, physical and mental deteriorating. Has that assisted in the continuity in making, is it where somebody said the prison wall is porous, is it where? Yes, it has. Again, it would be wrong of me to say that in every single case it works. I think that in every single case it doesn't, but I think that in the vast majority of cases the shift to the NHS has been very positive and I think that is an on-going and improving situation. Maybe follow that one up. Is there a measure of outcome, because it seems to me that you can come here this morning and sound very positive but without any actual contract data that there has been improvement, even a fall in reoffending or a reduction in the criminal population then, it's very difficult to say if it has been successful, but you tend to monitor outcomes? Again, I can give you my views as running the prison service and what I see and experience on a day-to-day basis in the operation of prisons and the relationship with our key partners, the NHS being a key partner. My view is very clearly that things have improved and are continuing to improve. What I will say is that in terms of measures and evidence of that, I think that we have perhaps in the past not been able to produce evidence because we've been really focused on input measures and processes and part of the journey that we are on now is to recognise that what we need to develop are outcome measures and storytelling and effectively telling the story of life improvement. That's a journey that we are on, not just as a service but in partnership with our delivery partners. Well, hopefully the establishment of a pilot for a problem-solving criminal court might help. Yes, well at the end of 2013 officials entered into discussions with both sheriff principles and, indeed, with CJAs. Those discussions are ongoing, we've drilled down, they're continuing to be dealt with locally and, obviously, partners required to engage there and we'll be able to give greater detail at the end of the year but we're heartened at the willingness and we're leaving it, as I say, to the discussions on going at a local level. She would hope to establish this pilot. We've got a front-runner and we're working to develop that proposal. It's probably not politic to say exactly whether it is just now but, certainly, I'd expect them to be taking this or cases early in 2015. That's very helpful and that will look at things like the full history of the convicted person being in front of them and able to make the best disposal. Cabinet Secretary, are you confident now that, if it's a community service or a tight disposal, that they are fit for purpose for female offenders? That's been a problem in the past. Well, there's two aspects there. Yes, I'm confident that the community payback scheme is taking on board the specific requirements of female offenders and I'm sure that that will be specifically factored in in the local area. Some of the aspects that you refer to are obviously more for local partners in terms of delivery for the Scottish court service for the particular sheriffs who will be presiding in for the sheriff principles but we're engaging with them. There's a great deal of positivity. It's being pursued, as I say, with willing volunteers rather than reluctant conscripts and it's about making sure, I think, the point you're alluding to. It's not simply about what we do as an administration. It's also what has to be dealt with locally through agencies that are local government, through the health service and indeed those in the court service, so as I say, as Andy has said, these discussions are on-going. They're on-going not just vertically but horizontally in the community and we're, you know, I think, more than satisfied that what is necessary will be there for those who are step forward. Thank you very much, Margaret. Sandra Foulda-Bailain. Thank you very much. Good morning, everyone. Margaret touched on some of the issues that I was going to raise but I'm very interested in basically the CG justice centres and the work that they are doing at the moment and I think Colin touched on the whole system approach which I think we all believe that that's the best way forward. I just wanted to, you know, pick up on what the cabinet secretary had said also about mentoring services and I think it was £18 million from 2012 to 2017 and I just wanted to ask the commission's vision and the area of mentoring was that volunteers would be used as well as professionals also and they would be used from people, women in bail, women getting out of custody and I just wanted for an update on that particular issue in regard to the mentoring and whether yourselves feel that you are actually doing what the commission has said, their vision for the mentoring service. So the main national mentoring programme for women is a shine programme which is lived by SACRO along with a number of third sector partners. They're not volunteers, they are paid people who are doing that, that's what the funding goes for but in terms of what you get from the volunteers in the third sector, I think one of the key points is these aren't people, these aren't agents of the state doing this, they're someone other, they're these unconditional pillars of support that will provide support to people you know regardless of the ups and downs that they go through. So of all the categories of people you alluded to, they are providing support to women who are on remand and also women who are on committee disposals as well as people coming out of custody from a sentence, they're not currently providing support to women on bail. A little remark so that it's on the record, it's taken us an hour to get a fan for this room. Now whoever's listening to this, I don't know what you were doing while we were waiting for really keep the fans in this building but an hour to deliver one fan. That's your test, make it 30 minutes next time you get a round of applause. Thank you, sorry about that Sandra, on you go. That's quite all right, convener, I certainly don't feel that warm anyway. I should have clarified the fact when I said volunteers, it's not, I mean third sector people call it volunteers but obviously they are professionals in that field. You mentioned there that at the moment there were no mentoring for people who are on bail. Is that to be looked at in the future? I think so, as cabinet secretary said, we've just recently announced extension of the Reducing Reoffending Change Fund for a further two years and that will allow a chance to look at this a bit closer. In terms of how the actual mentoring projects have been developed, we have very much allowed the lead organisation, in this case SACRO, along with their partners to design their projects and the bail element of it is something that hasn't come out of it so far, so I can't say absolutely it's going to be looked at or bail, but I guess there's no reason why it might not develop in that way. That's fine just now, thank you. Eileen, followed by John Finnie. Sorry, is this a supplementary audit? Yes, go for it. There's a little bit of clarification on volunteers. In the commission's report, they talked about the use of volunteers including faith groups and or ex-offenders. Can you start out with any ex-offenders involved in mentoring movement? Yes, there's an organisation called Positive Prisons that you might be familiar with, which actually uses ex-offenders in that way. They are involved in at least one of the mentoring schemes around that. I've also been in touch with other organisations out with the funding that we put out through the Reducing Reoffending Change Fund, who are interested in developing that sort of peer mentoring that you're describing in that sort of way as well. So, there is absolutely that element to this. I guess one of the things we have to be keen on is I think we're absolutely clear that mentoring is a really, really important part of it, but for the people who are going to be the people mentored, the mentees, I guess there's a need to make sure there's a degree of coordination around that, so they're unfleddured with lots of requests for people to come along and be their mentor. To answer your question, the vision around people who have had that experience that the people are now mentoring previously being part of it, and that is the case. Thank you. It's Eileen, followed by John Finlay, followed by John Pentland, followed by yourself again, Roddy Eileen. If I could just return to the issue about the local prisons for remandans short-term sentence prisoners, obviously the three centres are not local to some communities in Scotland, and I appreciate that some years ago HNP Dumfries had a women's unit and there were so few women in it who just didn't work and the women weren't able to be supported properly, but I'm just wondering in terms of improving liaison with local communities what thought has been given to those women who come from local communities, which are not particularly local to Greenock or Grampian or Edmund, how that can be worked through really in terms of offering the same sort of service to those women? I think that's undoubtedly the challenge we face is to find new ways to reach out to the multiplicity of communities. I think that the vehicle in which we would prefer to do that will be through the community planning partnerships undoubtedly as they emerge in the new roles with new responsibilities, and certainly our strategic direction and our planning approach very much recognises the important role that the planning partnerships have. Now that's not to say that every single community has citizens in our care, but I think that general approach to make sure that those issues that we are aware of and that communities are dealing with are represented in the totality and in an integrated way, and certainly that's our approach to affecting that in the future. I may know in some recent gallery that one time might only be one or two women, but obviously those women need to have that sort of support, and I'm just wondering how would it work in practice in terms of those women actually having the links with their local communities? I think that that's the journey we're on. I can't sit here and say for every single community I can tell you how it's going to work in practice. I think our approach is to work through community planning partnerships to make sure that we can contribute to an integrated support mechanism that makes sure that those that come from communities and go back to them have the best possible support package on their way back to the community and certainly for that initial period that they're settling back in. In terms of the new model for our community justice centres and so on, there's obviously ideas that there would be a national agency but working with local communities. Again, would that be a service that you would expect to see throughout all 32 local authorities or that would be more concentrated in certain areas and maybe people having to travel more or whatever? That most likely will be for others to comment on, but certainly from my perspective in running the Scottish Prison Service, I would certainly want to be part of a more integrated approach that's informed by evidence and makes best practice available and known to all the partners. If they don't nominate themselves, you'll see I'll just leave them be, but what's going on in terms of developing that? In terms of the redesign of the community justice structures? Yes. The commission's recommendation was to create a national service. That isn't a recommendation that we're pursuing. As the committee may be aware, we've had a number of consultations on the future of community justice in Scotland. The first consultation took the option of having the national service as envisaged by the commission along with the local model and enhancing CJAs. None of those options provided received universal support in the consultation. The model that we've gone for, which we've just ended a consultation on that, is for CJAs to be disestablished and for responsibility for community justice to go to community planning partnerships. The idea behind that is, as the commission saw, that this needs to be far more around criminal justice, social work that needs to be around enhancing the contribution of health, housing, the full range of partners that make a contribution to allowing people to go on the journey around assisting from crime. What we will create is a new national body that will oversee that extent to which that is happening. Whilst responsibility will be with the 32 community planning partnerships to deliver reducing re-offending, there will be a national body that will oversee that. It will have greater visibility and transparency of the extent to which those outcomes are being achieved across the full range of partners. Importantly, in terms of where the commission was coming from, it will have that leadership role. One of the things that the commission found lacking was that sort of senior voice that speaks up for community justice and the full range of things. That leadership role will be resided in the national body. In terms of funding, will that be completely down to the local authorities to decide how much funding is available? Funding for criminal justice social work now is currently 100 per cent funded through the Scottish Government. This is one of the things that are up for consultation just now. I think it's likely that that will remain to implement the changes that will require primary legislation. It's likely that we will retain that funding and it will find its way down to the local authorities in that way. On this remoteness, which is very important for Elaine's constituency and others in this room, how often do you use technology? My granddaughter keeps in touch with Granny Canada and Skype. She's been doing it since she could crawl. It's very important that people in prison feel that they are not a number but are a person that's known to the social work in their area and that there's somebody personal to it. Do you use that when people can't or families can't make it up to visit that they can use technology to keep in touch with their children and the family at large? There are two aspects to that, convener. The first is the development of video conferencing in terms of the workings of the justice system and how courts and prisons link, how prisons and legal representatives link and how prisons and social service providers link. That's all in train and development. For the person in prison? Indeed. Can they have access to these? The second strand is that personal access. That's currently not available. That's not to be direct with you, not that we wouldn't want it to be provided, but I appreciate there are political and public sensitivities around people in prison having access to Skype and other sort of visual media. But surely, you know, supervised talking to their children or their mother or whatever would be easy to do and would keep them in touch for they can't always have family visits if you're dem fris, coming up to Glasgow or whatever, are in their play. I think technologically, I think you're spot on, it would be easy to do. It's not something currently that we are planning to provide on the basis that I think it would be something that we'd have to be well consulted on in order to check out the sensitivities and the risks that may be perceived. Oh, a wee bit surprised at that. There we are. I mean, I can understand the sensitivities. My wee's are surprised it can't just be done operationally. It just seemed like a big deal. The family supervision that takes place just now, it's supervised when we went to see it at court at the young offenders at Pullman, was supervised with the toddler with the girlfriend, so I didn't quite see why. If you can't make it, you can't just do that, so at least to feel they're speaking to their family. But there we go. Maybe you'll do it. I'm not involved in this, by the way. There's no money in this for me. I'm not promoting it for any reason. John Finlay, followed by John Pentland. Thank you, convener. It's a question for Mr McConnell. Mr McConnell, I don't know if you're cited in the Howard League's comments that were alluded to by my colleague Alison there. A quote from it says, two years on from the publication of the report of the commission of women offenders, we're concerned the balance is still significantly tilted in favour of custody rather than community-based approaches to address women's offending behaviour. And I wonder the extent to which, if you like the language of the Scottish prison service, I appreciate you're an enlightened individual movie. And if I can quote again from the letter we received from Ian Davidson, your director of strategy innovation, where he says, the normal operating capacity for Amber Clyde of 300 includes four places for mother and baby unit and eight places in the community integration unit. That doesn't, and then goes on to say, making the prison's mainstream capacity 288 in a combination of single and twin rooms. Now, I would have thought the entire population should, to some extent, at least, be community integrated. I'm not wishing to play in words here, but that seems to be a comparable number to the unit, for instance, touching on what Elaine talked about, that was an Inverness prison for people at the end of their service, which was proving to be very successful. Can't recall the figures, but 23, 24 and only two had re-offended things like that. Is the challenge getting that change of culture within the Scottish prison service to reflect more the sort of disposals people are wanting to see and the level of community engagement? It's really helpful that you've raised that, because I think what that helpfully does is actually draws out the risks or the limitations in trying to segment things too far. So I take it as a planning approach. The numbers have to add up to a particular number, but the journey we're on, and it's very clearly set out in our strategic review, is that, actually, in terms of our care of people who pass into custody, we view that every single one is on a journey towards reintegration. So, again, whilst not wishing to dance in the head of a pin or play with language, the reality is that we will have a capacity of 300 at Inverclyde, just taking Inverclyde as an example. However, my view is that every single one of my fellow citizens who will be residing there for a period of time are on a reintegration journey. So whether we segment it as eight or just view it as 300, I think it depends on how you want to view it, but my own view is that every single person in custody is on a journey to reintegration. But that was my point. I don't doubt that that's your view a bit differently. Is it important that it's your staff's view as well? I mean, absolutely no doubt that the vast majority of staff who work for the Scottish Prison Service have a very similar view. Again, as I've said here on other issues, I wouldn't wish to pretend that everything is as I see it. It's not, and people will have different views, will have different values and beliefs. However, from a being convinced point of view, I think that the vast majority of the men and women who work for the Scottish Prison Service view things in that way. Given the point that the convener raised about the perhaps use of technology to ensure that there's contact with families, I think you were wrongly pilloried before for a view you took in relation to mobile phones, which I personally fully supported, which was, as I understood, entirely about that. One of the frustrations we hear about technology in prisons is the building design. Is this building as designed to accommodate this number of people capable of, for instance, moving towards that? Because I understand how staff-intensive it would be to have 300 folk all speaking with their kids and granny once a week, let alone every day. Are the frustrations that there were with the structure of previous designs, have they been acknowledged and adapted anywhere, or is it more of the same but just new? Again, one of the fantastic opportunities that we've had, and we've been supported in taking that approach, is to design Inverclyde and the new unit Edinburgh in particular exclusively for the custody of and care of women. In answering directly your question, we have future proofed anticipated developing policy emerging technologies, as far as that's possible, within reason. In terms of the communication issue, Inverclyde and the new Edinburgh unit are being constructed with that capacity already inherent in the design. If the success of the various things that the Cabinet Secretary and Mr Bruce have talked about, the community rather than the custodial version, is there the wherewithal to mothball these places for women or utilise them for male prisoners? I don't think I've quite understood your question, Mr Fair. Everyone's goal is to reduce the number of people in prison, not least the number of women in prison. Can the building as design be used for other purposes if we do reduce the number of women who are referred to here? The design of Inverclyde and the Edinburgh unit is scalable in the sense that it's not one massive space, it is scalable. Yes, to a point, but in some ways, if we get to that point where we have insufficient women in custody to justify the operation of the facility in the way that it's currently designed, then I think that that will require the rethinking of the approach. There will become a point if we are ultimately utopianly successful that we have single figures or very small numbers of women or anybody in custody, then I think that a whole new approach, a whole new paradigm will have to be developed, but that in itself would be a fantastic challenge to take on. Let's hope we get there, but the prison estate has been seen as a whole, not just everything is going to be right for women prisoners. Although we are here talking about women, there is tremendous work going on with young people at Pallment 2, and what we are trying to do as an organisation and to share with other justice organisations and delivery partners is that as we learn the lessons through our study of improving services for women and for young people, that translates, scales up and rolls out across the whole estate so that all of those in custody benefit. Thank you. Is this a supplementary? Yes, please if I may. I will find out. Thank you very much. You talk about any of the facilities, but I didn't hear you talking about HMP Grampian and what kind of differences making to rehabilitation and reintegration of offenders and as well as the design of the prison, if you can give a few words about that. Of course, Grampian is a unique facility in terms of its Scotland's first, what has been described as a community facing prison. Of course, Grampian by design will hold women, men and young males too. That is a new concept and I think that we are on a journey to discovering how best to make that work, not just from operationally running it from the Scottish Prison Services perspective, but running it in a joined-up way with the communities of the northeast of Scotland. That is not something that is immediately apparent. I think that we are going to have to work on that for months and years ahead to really make that community integration work for those that are going to live for a time at Grampian. Too early to get some feedback already from Mr Bringram. I think that in truth it is rather early. We are talking here months after the launch and I think that both those who run community services and we who run the custodial service have to continue with our absolute commitment to keep exploring and working on integrating the service approach in the months and years ahead and not just settle for anything that appears to work at a given time. I would love you to come back to the committee when you have started to have some data of what happened in the update. I was going to ask you whether perhaps it is for the committee, whether for yourself, Mr McConnel, whether it would be useful for the committee to see the design of, we keep talking about the design of Gordon Vale, I do not know what it looks like. I presume that the design is complete or I might have my presumption wrong, it is simply now contract awards and so on. The design is in effect at the proof of design stage. Where we are now we have employed value specialists who are working with us to make sure that in terms of the design, the construction approach and the materials that are being proposed to be used as a totality present the best value for the investment from the public purse. I think that we are interested in the design layout. That is what we would be looking at. You are saying that it is multifunctional for serious and at risk to the community issue raised by Alison in the beginning and also this idea of if I may use it a lighter touch. I do not mean that it is frivolous but I am trying to improve and help people to not come back and reoffend and to deal with all the multi issues that we all know about. Would it be useful for what you have and I am certainly committed to decide to see this design layout. What do you think? You are all looking at me as if I am on another planet. If I could be, yes. It would be useful for us to have that and maybe have a briefing from someone and the informal briefing just looking at the design layout and explain to us how it will operate. If I could offer a view, convener, I am a bit nerdy about these things obviously a bit of anorak. Nobody refuted that. That is terrible. They all just sat there accepting it. I am absolutely convinced and excited and I think proud that in Scotland we are on the journey to bringing into operation something that will be a class leader in Europe. I am absolutely convinced of that and not just from a design perspective important though that is from an integrated service delivery point of view. It would be useful for us to see that. I will leave that in your hands just now in the clerks will write and I think we would be quite interested in seeing how this word design layout and everything would operate for the women prisoners. John Pentland followed by Roderick back to Alison after that. John. Thank you, convener. Mr Connell, the higher league Scotland asked the cabinet secretary for justice whether the proposals for HMF and for Clyde were in keeping with the commission's overall aspirations and the cabinet secretary replied that decisions relating to the size of design were an operational matter for the Scottish prison service. So my question then would be was the design of over Clyde based on budget because I seem to remember Mr Connell you saying that you would have no difficulty in maintaining standards and delivering improvements on a reduced budget and yet this looks to me like a cost saving measure rather than one design to meet the recommendations of the commission. So could you maybe advise the committee how much more it would have cost if SPS were to provide a completely separate local and national facilities and will the temptation not always remain there to retort to a more shared functions and increase integration when there is budgetary constraints adding to the pressure and if we are not in danger this will lead eventually to a recreation of court and veal at Enver Clyde. Where we are at with Enver Clyde and the Enver unit in my opinion is not just within the spirit of what Dame Elish recommended but I think in actuality it follows it to the letter and I'll explain why. I'm very aware that what Dame Elish recommended was a focus on the different stages and different needs of women who pass in and out of custody and Dame Elish quite rightly referred to the scale of the living environment and I think what she meant then was its context in relation to the communities that women come from and go back to. From the experience that we have in operating successfully the custodial facilities it's SPS's judgment, my judgment, that what we've proposed is the best solution to meeting the recommendations that Dame Elish made both in terms of the spirit and the letter of her recommendations and in particular in relation to Enver Clyde, the design and the approach, the service provision approach that we have in mind for Enver Clyde will absolutely address beyond anything currently we've been able to provide those very issues that Dame Elish has identified. So in terms of are we cutting corners? Could we have delivered more with more money? Probably. In terms of more with more money, are we cutting corners? No, we are not. Do we need more money to make the proposed Enver Clyde more successful? Absolutely not. This is something that's designed to meet the challenge that it's going to face and I'm absolutely convinced you could accuse me of being overly effusive but I've got 30 years in the business and this is by far the best constructed, best resourced, best informed approach to the development of a new facility that I have ever encountered both in terms of its internal contribution but the contribution from the community and other specialists alike. So my response to you is this is the best fit for the challenge that we are likely to face in the coming years. That being said, in response to a question asked by Mr Finnie, you answered that somewhere down the line we're going to have to scale back a bit on the facilities that you are now going to spend £75 million on. So you know the question is have we got it right? I think if I understood Mr Finnie correctly, in the future world, if as a country we are successful in having a substantially lower crime society, which in itself then generates fewer people for custody, then of course we will have to take a fresh approach, not just I suppose at Inverclyde but nationally across a custodial estate that probably has more spaces in it than the people who are sent to us by the courts. I would say what a fantastic cultural and national opportunity that would be and I would welcome it if that came round. Just one further question, convener. I'm not too sure if I picked Mr Bruce up right, but just on that very point about how the SPS believed that this is a design which will help women offenders. I'm not too sure, Mr Bruce, if you said there were other stakeholders who have actually put an input in supporting that. Is it at all possible for us to get the written evidence on that or do you have information that you could maybe share with the committee? Is it at all possible for us to put in the design of Inverclyde? The design and what has been proposed by SPS is the way forward for women offenders because I have a slight doubt that perhaps what has been led here is through budget rather than what we are trying to do to help women offenders. You said you had further information that might be able to back up the support for SPS design. I'm not sure I answered that question. I think I was referring to the consultation around community justice redesign as a whole, so the whole structure. All our evidence is in public and I think if anyone wants to challenge your question, which was not in fact what you'd answered, which was about the community justice, they will do as you and I know, they will email us and write and we welcome that. I think we can get comments from outside if they feel that, as voluntary agencies and so on, there's something amiss. Do you believe that the SPS is embarking on the way forward to help and support women offenders? Yes, I'm delighted that the on-going work has always been at the efforts of SPS and I think the Angelini commission gives a direction and a template that we're seeking to work to, but I'm delighted at the past and current efforts. I'm going to take you all right, John. Thank you. Rodi, you're next, and then Alison to conclude, I think won't conclude at that. I shouldn't have said that because somebody else has put their name on the list. Rodi. Mr McConnell, perhaps you could give us an update on where we are with voluntary throughcare and also one of the issues in the commission support paragraph 74 was issue raises the lack of suitable accommodation, especially on release from prison. And again, if there's any information you can provide on that, that would be helpful. In a sense, it's out of my bailiwick, the provision of services in the community. It's well understood the challenge that people leaving custody face and Andy Bruce touched on that particularly in terms of housing. I think a direction we can undoubtedly head in in future in terms of the discussion with our improving relationships with community planning partnerships is to talk through as partner organisations how we can best respond to those challenges. And I think some of the weaknesses of the past have been around silo organisations trying to think through their own part. I think the approach through CPPs undoubtedly will allow us to problem solve in a more integrated way. Is there anything that Mr Bruce wanted to add? It's absolutely a priority for us. I think the committee is aware that the Cabinet Secretary of Chairs and Minister of Group on Offender reintegration, which is looking at exactly these sorts of things and colleagues with the responsibility for housing, health, employability have looked in around that and housing has been the focus of one of those meetings, one of the innovations that has come out of that is a housing trial at HNP Perth, which is looking at both trying to stop people losing their tenancy upon coming in to custody so that they don't become homeless and then equally looking to bring some housing expertise within the prison as well to work not just on behalf of the local authority for which that person works but the full range of local authorities to which the people living Perth will be returned to to make sure that there is a far more timely move into sustainable accommodation upon leaving Perth. That's using the Scottish Government's improvement approach, where you're testing out small bits of change prior to looking at running out further wide. There's a tangible description there of what we're trying to do to improve that housing pathway. I think that Project 218 has been doing that for some time when we visited some time ago that that was the key thing was speaking to Glasgow City Council that people did not lose their tenancy, which we were quite shocked to find out that it compounded their problems and ensured the tenancy continued so they walked back into where they've been before when they were released maybe that's maybe not always the best environment but if it were suitable environment to go back into some quite pleased to hear that that's being looked at elsewhere and of course your development there which you know we're proud of is the development of women's services across Scotland so you know 218 start off that we've maintained the funding for that and then on the back of the commission there's been investment in in women's services across Scotland as well some of which on the the centre model where in the urban centres you're a bricks and mortar facility where the services that they're in one place wrapped around the women but equally where that's not appropriate for women's more rural occasions is actually more outreach type services where the same aspiration that you're bringing the full package together but we're taking it to to the people rather than expected them to come to a single site. Thank you and Alison I'll let you conclude. Thank you very much it's been an interesting session and returned to where I started basically and that the commission's report brought forward a number of interlocking and interdependent recommendations and I'm really I'm I'm still concerned that we're getting out of step now with things so something is moving forward in a good way I think so the redevelopment of the prison is moving forward what's not coming along at the same speed as the community justice centres as far as I can see and I'm very concerned I mean the cabinet secretary's used the phrase 218 light on on more than one occasion when we've been discussing this and I know that the tomorrows women facility has only got funding for 18 months it doesn't have any residential facility so none of the proposals that are coming forward across Scotland actually replicate what was going on the good practice in 218 so no residential facilities there and I suppose I'd like to ask the cabinet secretary for his commitment and leadership on this will he fight for the resources to be able to give us the same assurance that he's not cutting corners that Mr McConnell has given us on the prisons development on the justice centres yes I can give you that budgets are tight across all walks of life personal private public sector but we're putting in what we can which we feel is appropriate the concept of 218 light and 218 is an outstanding project but it was accepted and discussed with them that not every centre requires to have accommodation it can be dealt with in terms of individuals coming in we also require to take on to and into account the nature and geography of Scotland that is why the 218 sort of replication albeit without the accommodation has gone into Dundee Edinburgh etc in other areas where there's sparser geography we've had to deal with it in a different way but it's to make sure that we get the best of 218 which was to try and work out what the problem or problems in many instances were to make sure that we provide that support you do have to have an analysis and investigations carried about those with particular skills and expertise such as that those with psychiatric qualifications equally it's quite clear that thereafter a lot of it may be mentoring support equally what we're also clear here is that what is also going to work and make it maintainable and sustainable in the future is making sure we bring together outside agencies that's why we are keeping it local why we are building upon community planning partnerships it cannot all be done by the justice sector it our law enforcement it has to have health housing employment all of these other agencies have to be round the table so i believe that we're building on the outstanding work of 218 we're making sure that the facilities where the Edinburgh and others have visited in Glasgow deliver that and recognise the geography and the geographical difficulties in Scotland sorry she just wasn't looking very happy but can i have two short questions then i'll leave that there but i would just stress that none of them replicate 218 and it's hard to believe that Dundee and Edinburgh don't wouldn't benefit from a similar service but more worryingly i think is that the hub and spoke development in the prisons which we've got and i would want to seek assurances that we wouldn't end up with a two-tier service so we've got the people in the west who are in reclied and have access to all of the facilities there and the people in the north and the east who can only access the services some time i recently visited HMP Grampian and the women while happy with their new accommodation were concerned that they didn't have access to the programmes and the facilities that they had already had when they were in content veil and that they will have to go back to Edinburgh Clyde of content veil to access those programmes so i'm a bit concerned about that and about how that actually helps proper integration and i wonder if Mr McConnell could speak about that you're very happy to to respond to that and again you're absolutely right to be concerned about that and in some ways i'll answer the question in two parts if you could imagine the situation where we had lots of small facilities the geometric factoring up of those very difficulties that you're talking about that's why you're in response to Mr Pentland i think the solution we've arrived at is on a scale basis the best solution for everyone concerned in terms of the service delivery particularly in terms of programmes it's actually really difficult to get the number of people together who have the skills and the background and the qualifications to deliver those programmes in the first place and of course we have an on-going programme of recruitment and training and qualification so certainly for the foreseeable future it's highly likely that for very specialist programmes that inverclide will be the specialist centre for delivering them and whilst i accept absolutely that there is a detriment to women in terms of their closeness to the community if they need access to those programmes i'd much rather persuade them of the acceptability of the detriment from the as opposed to the or counterbalanced by the positiveness that will come will come in getting access to a highly specialised well delivered programme for their particular needs and accept it's not an ideal situation i'd prefer to have all the specialist resources everywhere around the country but that's not practical to do that Finally convener you mentioned IT the commission's report spoke about fostering self-responsibility amongst among prisoners and i'm interested in your view of the potential for modern technology to do that when we visited adiwell and i know that in comarnac also they use the self-service IT kiosks and we'll all remember that Brigadier human robes praised that as a way forward has that been taken forward in the new prison we're we're certainly i'm planning to introduce self-service type technology i don't think at this stage we've absolutely settled on what that will be but if we could just share with you and perhaps it's it's something to discuss further in due course we we know that all the evidence supports this view particularly from from academic and experiential research that what makes the difference for our fellow citizens who pass through custody in terms of their own perception of self-esteem and their willingness preparedness to change is the quality of relationship that exists between them and the the staff who are working in the prison on their behalf and i think we have to be careful in not using technology as an alternative to that we currently have an appropriately and well resourced scottish prison service i think is a country we should be proud of that and we need to make sure that through the people that work in the service we we provide the best opportunity for those high quality relationships to have an impact so i think there's a balance in that approach that has to be taken i think you're suggesting for a minute we have you know robots or whatever supplanting people and the importance of i think that's what we're getting up for the remote areas is keeping some kind of personal relationship going and i thank you very much for your evidence i know the cabinet secretary is staying for the next item so i'll suspend for a couple of minutes to allow the witnesses to leave thank you march back we go next item item two if i have your attention people item two is consideration of one affirmative instrument the draft scottish legal complaints commission modification of duties and powers regulations 2014 this instrument amends and adds to the duties and powers of the scottish legal aids complaints commission with the aim of improving the complaints process and cabinet secretary you're still here of course and we have now denise swanson head of access to justice unit and allister smith from the legal directorate welcome to two new witnesses cabinet secretary will give evidence in advance of the debate and instrument i understand cabinet secretary wish to make a brief opening statement thank you convener i'm happy to be here today to assist the committee in its consideration of the scottish legal complaints commission modification of duties and powers regulations 2014 the law society of scotland and the scottish legal complaints commission had previously contacted the minister for community safety and legal services and the justice committee in order to raise concerns about certain practical aspects of the legal profession and legal aid scotland act 2007 both the society and the commission agreed to form a working group with other stakeholders the aim of which was to suggest changes to the legislation that would improve the complaints process benefiting both the public and the profession the group consisted of the law society the scottish legal complaints commission the faculty of advocates the association of commercial attorneys the legal defense union the scottish solicitors discipline tribunal citizens advice scotland which in the centre for professional legal studies at strathclyde university law school these amending regulations are a direct result of the findings of this working group they will significantly assist in making the legislation a more effective framework for dealing with legal complaints in scotland and this is in keeping with the scottish government's national outcome that our public services are high quality continually improving efficient and responsive to local people's needs the regulations rearrange the order in which the slcc considers the various aspects of a complaint to improve efficiency and better reflect current practice they give the lcc the power to discontinue and reinstate services complaints and they give legal practitioners the right to complain about the handling of a complaint by a professional body they also require the slcc to set up an independent panel which can advise it on consumer and equality issues and i hope this is useful to the committee and i'm happy to take any questions well all just seems like common sense to me this but that's maybe to Alice Margaret sorry i think the cabinet secretary of that opening statement can i ask to to what extent the scottish government monitors the operation of the the commission the slcc puts forward an annual report that's laid in parliament every year it's a non-departmental public body which my unit has sponsorship responsibility for and we work closely with the slcc and we also work with them on their consultation on their budget proposals so it's an unusual non-departmental public body in that it is not funded by the scottish government it is funded by a lebi on the profession so there is a certain amount of accountability to the profession on the way that the the commission operates but we work very closely with them in improvements in efficiency in their operations yes i'm aware that ministers appoint members of the board but given that these changes which are all very sensible and should improve the commission and the complaint system have come from stakeholders i wonder given it was 2008 that the commission came into being is it not now time for some post legislative scrutiny on how it's operating and a more operating and a more in-depth look at its performance and how it could perhaps be improved well i'm happy to consider any suggestions that the member or indeed the committee may have but it does seem to me that we've got the appropriate balance as denise was saying it is a non-departmental public body we do appoint the commission there is a level of scrutiny there but i think we have to have trust and faith in those who are appointed and we do equally i think it's quite clear given the lebi which is unusual if not necessarily unique that ensures that there's a great deal of scrutiny from bodies that also are represented and represent individual members so i'm happy to take on any more but it does seem to me that actually the commission together with those stakeholders have been working reasonably well they've recognised that there have been challenges and difficulties they've got themselves together they've worked out what changes need to be made and we're here as the administration to support them but we're open to suggestions suppose the point being cabinet secretary understand it's a lebi from the stakeholders people who may be the subject of the complaints so i suppose what i'm suggesting is ensuring more independent scrutiny is there well again i'm open to suggestions as to what level of scrutiny you want i've had no suggestions that the organisation is not working you know reasonably well and smoothly clearly as in any NDP the government has oversight and responsibility but it does seem to me that some tweaks and challenges have been met they're being faced they're discussing and engaging with the stakeholders and clearly my colleague my deputy and myself meet regularly whether it's with the faculty or the law society of scotland but unless there's any suggestions of any malfeasance or other matters i don't see why the government necessarily wish to intervene in a body that appears to be liaising well operating reasonably smoothly but we're always open to suggestions i suppose that cabinet secretary it's just the the number of proposals in which are all very good in this legislative consent motion i think would be good for wider debate and for parliamentary scrutiny it's something that we are pretty notoriously bad for in the scotish parliament actually and doing post legislative scrutiny that would be a matter for or the the committee or indeed perhaps even for opposition parties in opposition days it seems to me that one of the reason there's so many aspects been referred to is a very complicated field but i think i welcome the fact that they've discussed and taken on board not simply those who would normally be expected to be represented there in terms of the law society and indeed the faculty of advocates taking on board citizens advice and which given their interaction with the members of the public but i think that's a matter for parliament rather than necessarily government evidence but can i say my not right historically it was the law society that had a an arm of it that used to deal with complaints and i don't think that that was satisfactory and that now moving to the scotish law complaints commission and would you would the cabinet secretary agree with me because i take the view that an independent advisory panel will be very important because we're doing that i'll be looking to see how it's operating on the basis of the establishment of the slcc was public concern transmitted across political parties as you've correctly said convener that these aspects could not and should not be dealt with by those professional bodies regulating themselves but i don't know if the needs work yes it may be helpful to note that in the past two to three years the slcc has reported an improvement in the efficiency of its handling of complaints there was a bit of a backlog that has now been resolved that it has been able to reduce the levy in this budget the budget proposals that were recently consulted upon so that it is reporting on improvements in process and the times in which it is taking to process complaints the enforcement of recommendations that that's working on yes so the the the number of cases taken to court in terms of enforcement is is reducing yeah roddy i just wanted to make a brief point but perhaps i should just refer to my register of interests a member of active advocates seems to me that the putting on the statute the independent advisory panel is a way forward and i'm pleased to note that it's going to include representatives and consumer inequalities organizations so that i think ought to make substantial improvement in in the way that the commission functions if it takes on board the comments of that panel yeah can i say i welcome the flexibility that's built in and i'm quite surprised it's taken this while to get this flexibility because i said it's looks like common sense to me and you know it's taken away while ability to revisit eligibility questions rearranging the order of consideration the headings are under it powers to discontinue and reinstate service all seems to me something that in terms of management of cases with something should have been there from the start so i very much welcome it but what i'd like to ask is you sent consultation packs to a range of people were they all happy with this or were there any who any of their consultative list including particularly the consumer organizations cab and which and the OFT were they content with these amendments being made to the existing practices yes they were part of the the group that worked together on the proposals that were put forward and the the kind of remit of this group was to agree what elements of improvements could be delivered through practice change which required primary legislation which required subordinate legislation and so the group was able to come to an agreement on that position i think the one outstanding issue is on the matter of appeals having to go to the court of session but that is something that would require primary legislative change so it's been accepted by that group that that that position and that that element of the process must remain as is at the moment but the rest of the proposed amendments have got across the spectrum yes agreement yes that's fine i don't see any more questions so i now move on that's the evidence session and now move on to item three which is a formal debate in the motion to prove the instrument consider and invite the cabinet secretary to move motion s where m 1064 the justice committee recommends the draft scottish legal complaints commission modification of june's powers regulation 2014 be proved formally moved do any members wish to speak in the debate i take it not and the question is that motion s4m 1064 be agreed to are we all agreed thank you very much and that's concluded but as members are aware i'm required to report we are required to report all affirmative instruments are you content never to delegate authority to me to sign off this report thank you very much right that's it concludes that item thank you very much item four is subordinate legislation is consideration of one negative instrument the right to information suspects and accused persons scotland regulations 2014 ssi 2014 159 this aims to satisfy the requirements of a recent eu directive on the right to information and criminal proceedings by specifying that every suspect in police custody receives a letter of rights the dplr committee has drawn the attention of the parliament the instrument because the 28 day rule has not been complied with however it's accepted the scottish governance reasons for this also draws our attention to the terms of regulation three two regarding the time limit for the time limit for the provision of information are we happy indoors the dplr committee's conclusion and you alas i could see it corner of my eye bracing yourself at the starting blocks get the commonwealth games in it right allison thank you i just wanted to comment that it makes no reference to the letter of rights being provided in that appropriate language and i wonder whether it ought to refer to that john forget my name our amendment that will come forward at a future stage but in relation to the consultation and on page four convener my former colleagues in police scotland they've indicated they already endeavour to ensure all suspects understand the rights that in providing both verbally and writing would result in a disproportionate time resource and allocations i think that's disappointing and indeed a conflict of terms perhaps in part reassured that there's further work required and that's mentioned in page five but the reason it's terribly important it is read is because of the the levels of literacy that exist so i think it's important to record that and i hope that police scotland will realise if they're endeavouring to assure all aspects all suspects understand the rights that they'll see that there's a a burning need for them to be read their rights just being minded by officials that in terms of the criminal justice bill which will come back to she put that amendment in at section five subsection three the person must be fired as soon as reasonably packed with such information verbal and writing as is necessary to satisfy it's actually also my experience that if you didn't do that there would be a challenge to the what had happened in the proceedings in in certainly you'll know from your experience in process just now if you have if you don't understand what's being asked of you in a police station you can challenge the rest of the process and it can be actually set aside but i think you're quite right to raise that and we can deal with that at stage two you've raised on the record now elaine you're waving your pencil that was something i got before you wave your pencil allison you've done yours john if any you're in you may speak that was was it not a recommendation in our stage one report that it should be in both there we are definitely well there we are but good to raise again so there we are and so we otherwise we're happy your body language is so telling you see you hardly need to raise your voice happy to endorse the dplr's committee conclusions are we right are you content to make no recommendation relation to this instrument apart from what we've now said on the record yes item five scotland's national action plan for human rights a rapporteur to the snap plan process is john finnie and john you recently met professor allen miller miller a chair of the panel i would ask john please if you could report back to the committee on the issues raised at that meeting thank you governor yes i i met on the 18th of june and i'm grateful to neil the claire for coming along and bringing pen and paper with him which was very helpful um certainly it's the position yes indeed yes indeed it certainly was the the view of professor allen miller the the chair of snap that he welcomed the the engagement with the justice committee and he was aware that i would be reporting back in in august as regards timeframes for things the the snap as it's called snap leadership panel will meet in the seventh october and will consider a draft annual report and it was agreed that i would meet with professor miller shortly after that with the report likely to be published at the end of october professor miller advised there would be a suite of activities in the lead up to the 10th of december which is international human rights day including the committee's human rights debate that has been agreed and it was noted in advance of that debate the committee may find it an informal briefing from shrc on the international treaty obligations to be helpful and there may be indeed merit in inviting the subcommittee and other committees along to such a briefing professor miller provided an outline on the action plan five action plan there's five action groups measuring the outcomes from public bodies and putting in plans for implementation there's good progress being made and there is no doubt that scotland's position is viewed very favourably internationally and is ahead of the pack in respect of human rights in concluding a few points the discussions around existing areas of work with the committee and the subcommittee we wish to consider incorporating human rights into existing work and the examples suggested were stop and search arming officers women offenders and i think indirectly we're constantly relating to them indeed the previous article item was clearly about that another suggestion was a possible time bar on the issues in the damage bill in respect of historic child abuse and consideration of the proposed apologies scotland bill should the bill be referred to the justice committee and professor miller noted that police scotland had made a high level commitment to snap and is putting together a reference group on stop and search which is very positive and snap is involved in responding to that professor miller indicated be helpful to receive feedback from the parliamentary committees on the effectiveness of submissions to inquiries and bills and it was agreed that and if this has already happened to informally advise the class to equal opportunities committee of the snap process and the relevant timescale to help inform any follow-up work it has on the gypsy travellers inquiries i think the i think the offer of an informal briefing quite useful these do you feel the committee wants to have an informal briefing from professor miller prior to the debate and i was just asking when that might be in the debate might be november though the the business bureau hasn't settled anything yet would you like to have an informal briefing on all issues by prior to our debate i think we're quite useful anything else that's it thank you very much our next meetings 12 of august when we hold two round table evidence sessions first on brain injury and the criminal justice system the second is serious organized crime within the environmental sector thank you very much thank you