 Can a marriage survive without trust? And a lot of the times Pastor David and Marie is, I work with couples and I see this element of trust not there. And as I dig deeper, I find that their trust in the Lord really is something they still have to find. And so something interesting that I would hear quite often from our interviews. Pastor, you said it quite a few times, Marie, you've said it. From Proverbs 31, 11, where it says, the heart of her husband safely trusts her. And I've heard you both mention that in the different context. And it really speaks to how you often often say, also her heart is in my hands. Her heart is in, excuse me, my heart is in her hands. And you've also said that to one another. And so marriages, many marriages don't have trust because they don't fully trust in the Lord. Can you both share the importance of how trust is in the marriage? One of the things I think that is the hardest thing to regain when it's lost is trust. Absolutely. Because when you make your vows to God and to one another, you're promising that you're going to keep your word, that you're going to do the things that they're requesting you to promise that you will. The love to cherish, to be concerned for, provide for, and all of that. And so when a person is trusting of the other person, it simply means that their hearts are safe with them. They have fully committed themselves to giving themselves over to believing that that person is good to the word and they're going to keep their promises. And so when trust is broken in a marriage, John, and you know this because you do marital counseling, it's one of the hardest things to regain because broken trust also very often speaks of a broken heart. And so it's an area that you need to safeguard. And trust, I believe, when I exercise trust in Maria or she has trust in me, it rests on my commitment to the Lord and the integrity of my heart. You know, she in other words knows that I'm a person who's going to keep my word, that I'm going to do what I said and that that secures her, that gives her security. And so for me, in a relationship, in my relationship with my wife, trust has been one of the most important things to have. But it also can be one of the most fragile things that you have because it easily breaks, it's easily broken. And so to safeguard myself in the love of my wife required me to take a huge step of faith to believe that she would be true to what she was saying to me, that she actually meant what she was saying and that she would hold fast to what she was saying. And so over time, I grew to trust her more and more. I initially trusted her because why would I marry someone I didn't trust? But trust had to be built up and retained over the course of the years that we've been together. And so as I understand love and as I understand relationships, you know, love believes all things and hopes all things and endures all things. And all of this is really a reflection of the fact that love is trusting, you know, believing and hoping and enduring because we trust one another. And so in the Proverbs, chapter 31, Portion of Scripture, you were mentioning, where the husband hard to safely trust in her. Well, he gave all the qualities of that woman prior to making that statement. Her faithfulness and her diligence and her spirituality, there's so many components to her that this is a woman he could trust. And so Maria is a woman that I can trust because she is that kind of woman, you know, a diligent woman, a loving woman, a woman that makes me actually, advances me in the side of others because a good wife as Proverbs woman was, a good wife, a good wife makes a husband look good, you know. And so in the fact that Maria is my champion in many ways, meaning that she will champion me. She'll talk about her husband and how much she loves me to others. On occasion, you know, she doesn't do it all the time. She shouldn't, doesn't have to. But when she does, I always come out looking good. And that makes me feel that I can safely trust in her because she obviously has my best interest in her heart. And I obviously have impacted her to the point where she can trust in me also. So, yeah, I would say that a man stood before God and witnesses. And he said to the woman he was holding hands with, I will love you and I will trust you all of my days. But in doing so, that was a great step of faith. And if she should decide to to break that trust in a variety of ways, it's not always a physical thing if she takes the paycheck and spends it on herself and never lets him know how she's spending their money. Or if she develops relationships with friends that that override her, her relationship to him to the point where he comes home and she's on the phone and she doesn't get off and he begins to wonder who she's talking about and whether she's talking poorly about him. You know, in marital relations where where she may complain to her her mom about the husband and he is better. All those kinds of things can can break the trust that he had in her. But when she proves herself to be faithful to openly communicate anything that she has in her heart that concerns her so that the two actually work out their own problems without having to always bring some other party and some friend of hers that she likes to talk to or a relative that she likes to talk to or vice versa. He talks to his friends or he's telling other people and complaining, breaking her trust in him. No, the way trust, I think, works best for us is we trust each other. And so we have a concern. It's not to somebody else that I initially would speak to. And probably very seldom and would ever at all, because I've learned with Marie. I can work these things out together. We can work these things out if we put God first and his word first and and agree to put into practice what we see God's word to be saying. This is how Marie and I have have been all these years, John. It's not that I don't think a person should go to somebody else and and ask for advice. I think sometimes it's necessary. Sometimes it's even wise to do that. But not always. And in the case of Marie and me, I would say over the years that we've been together, we've worked our things out together, not because we're so private that we don't want people to know we aren't perfect, but because we work hard at having a relationship, which includes sometimes speaking of the things that are difficult to speak of, to be open and honest. And and we pretty much we pretty much are that way. I Marie can tell you that about me. If I got something on my heart, she's going to know. You know, I'm not going to hold back to, you know, I'm not going to hold back. It's us. I'm safeguarding us. I'm not going to have have a wedge that comes between Marie and me because I won't tell her I'm dissatisfied with something or concerned about something or heard about something. And we work it out together and and and where humility is, you know, where Marie and using myself as an example, speaking to Marie, my heart where Marie's humility comes into play is that she's able to hear it. She knows the words that I'm speaking to her. They may not be the ones she wants to hear at that moment, but they're coming from a hurt person whom she loves and whom I trust. I trust her. She'll listen to me. And that's how we work out any of our differences or any any disagreements we might have. Normally, I'd say 99.9 percent of the time we're able to handle things pretty much in that one conversation pretty much. And that's because of the trust that we have for each other, because, you know, the thing I like to say I say it often, and especially when I'm teaching is we chose us, you know, we chose us, you know, out of all the choices we've made in terms of relationships and friendships and even family, we chose us, you know, the two became one and that's our most important relationship. Do you with the trust that you guys have with one another? Is there a point in your marriage that you hit a certain point in your trust and it's a cruise control for the rest of your relationship? Or is it trust that has to be worked on on a daily basis? Or maybe there's a different degrees of trust that you that you guys work on. Is there a certain time in your in your marriage that you say, OK, we trust each other, so therefore we really don't have to work on trust because we trust each other, or is it something that it's always there? It's not as a combination of the two. I'd say, you know, it's always there. That's our foundation. That's our foundation. But in our in our case, again, John, we we've been we've been together a long time and there's never been a reason given to me by her that I shouldn't trust her. So much of my marital love for Marie is on that strong foundation that I fully trust her. Now, did I trust her when I first married her? Not like I do now. So trust grows over time. But it took a while for me to actually actually completely trust that she loved me. But that's only because I had a background that that didn't define love very well. It was defined poorly in many ways. And and so I didn't know I didn't know what love really I didn't know what love really was. I I had my biblical understanding. I could give you a Bible study on how love is 1 Corinthians 13 and John 15 and John 30. I could give you scriptures, Ephesians 4. I could give you scriptures related to love and what love looks like and what love does and what love means. I could do all of that. But in terms of really knowing it on a personal level and really trusting Marie that she was very sincere, it took time because I had to grow on my walk with God to the point where or where I even thought he loved me, you know, because because for a long time, I believed he loved other people. God so loved the world. But I didn't believe he loved me as much as he loved other people. I really didn't. And so I was able to preach about the love of God for others. But I didn't receive it very deeply for me. And so because I wasn't able to, I didn't know what it meant. I didn't know much about it on a personal level other than once in a while, the Spirit gives you a little bit of a glimpse into his love, maybe through an Easter service or an awakening that takes place on Christmas. Some special time where God's love is really demonstrated I might walk away in my earlier days and say, my God loves us. But I did not know how to receive the love. She could tell you this, you know, that there were times when I would tell it even into the marriage for a while, where I would say, when are you going to stop loving me? When are you going to stop? Because I thought you would. And it took a long time for me to finally say, you know, there's an old song this time, the girl has come to stay for more than just a day. It took a long time for me to realize that. And now, after all of these years, you know, she's too old to run away, John. She runs, she runs slow. I trusted him from the very beginning, but I still do. And that's interesting to see where you better watch it. That's interesting. You say that, Marie, because you see, Pastor came from a different perspective in terms of trust, where you're saying that would you first trust a pastor right off from the get go? I did. I did. Well, he was my mentor because he was I sat under him in Bible study. So sitting up through that time, I trusted him. That's like a reinforcement of trust, because you do see him as a mentor. You were saved under his ministry. Right. And so all these things that the trust that comes within that. Yeah, that's interesting. That's interesting to them. Home marriage, I trusted, I trusted him. Maybe not some women, but him. Not with me and women, John. I'm cheesy. It was women who were interested in me. We'll put it that way. I don't want anybody watching to think. Oh, no, of course not. I know, I know. I wouldn't be sitting here today. Trust me. Yeah, I'd be off with Bambi. And yes, I was going to say, he wouldn't be sitting here today. I'd be in Rose Hills for us long. That's why I'd be pushing up Daisy's right. That's why I'd be. It's not bad about that. Don't get a Mexican woman, John. That's true. I know. Oh, John, I tell your wife, you know, how has trusting the Lord given you both the ability to trust one another? You mentioned a little bit about it, Pastor, when you and again, I run into couples that have. Their trust has been broken in previous relationships. And then they come into new relationships and they don't trust right off the bat. Sometimes I think that's not fair for the other person. But then when I think about it more, I think it's how is their trust in the Lord really affecting their ability to trust? What would you guys say about that? I really, I really believe that if you don't trust the Lord, you won't trust other people. Yeah, you have to really be secure and be more aware of who you are in Christ. That was that that's biblically and solid. But that's also practically experientially true because it was it was a while until I came to realize what scripture says when it says God so loved, like I said a moment ago, the world, I finally I finally just inserted my own name amongst the other billions that are on the face of the earth and who have lived and and that's where it begins. It's I believe that a lot of times people have difficulty trusting others. Because they don't know that God really loves them. So my security in my relationship with me, yeah, you know, as I speak, I speak more openly, but it wasn't real observable. Marie Marie would not have known I was struggling with issues like that. She wouldn't have known that because I didn't wear that on my sleeve. It was my private torment. It was my private doubt that I had to deal with. But she never saw that. That's why she could she could trust me because because I didn't I didn't show her anything that would make her not want to trust me or not believe she could. And she could trust me. I wanted to be that man, but it was more on a personal thing. So when the Lord began to awaken me to the scriptures that relate to who I am in Christ and and what he has done in my life and and, you know, Ephesians one, you know, my position in Christ and being sealed by his Holy Spirit and and being filled by his Holy Spirit. And I began to take my eyes off myself and the feelings that I had and began to trust that God doesn't lie. And thus, when he says that he loves or he'll provide for you or he'll be there for you to believe that he that he would not just for other people, but for me. And so much of our growth in our marriage actually has a lot to do with my growth as a pastor and as a teacher and as a Christian, because this month in a couple of weeks we're going to celebrate 39 years of this church's existence. Thirty nine years of seeing God's faithfulness, seeing God do works in our life, providing in ways, you know, reinforcing because because I'll speak to him, you know, in this time of panic, in this time of fear mongering that I think the press is very guilty of, you know, the dissemination of misinformation where you have to pick and choose what is true, what is not true, what is their opinion and not being a scientist, doctor, whatever we as a nation. We're just we're at the at the mercy of those who choose how they're going to manipulate that news to make us feel. Well, that's, you know, here at the church, people are saying to me, you know, this our stability and and our strength is what's helping many of them to to weather the storm and because that's true. Where did my strength come from? You know, is it denial? Because there are those who think it is. Oh, you're just, you know, you're a science rejecter. And no, it isn't denial. It's just my pastor, Chuck, said, when I don't know something, I rely on the things that I do know. You know, and the psalmist said, truly, God is good. The phrase is truly, God is good to Israel. But Chuck said, you know, let's look at the first few words. Truly, God is good. And if you believe God is good, truly. Then he'll see you through everything. And over time, what has happened with me. Is that, you know, I wonder how many people and this is all practical as it pertains to my marriage, even though it's ministry, as I'm speaking to you. But, you know, people have mortgages on. People have rent for their apartment or a payment on a car or they have a house payment that they're paying. They've got mortgages and payments, you know, I do too. But I also have a mortgage on this church. And when you've got 100,000 square feet of building, you know, and 13 and a half acres of land and you've got 50 employees. And there is a shutdown of church services. And the majority of our people don't use online giving techniques and you hear that and you say, how are we going to survive because mortgage is still needing to be paid because employees are still doing work. How are we going to how are we going to pay? And I put my head on my pillow on a Sunday night and I come to work on a Monday morning and the spirit of the Lord reminds me of how when our church was young and we had a real need and he said, I didn't raise you up to let you fall. And I arrive at this office here to an empty parking lot where there's no church services and half my employees are off because of the covid scare. I came in with faith and I came in saying, my God shall supply all my need. But the average person doesn't do that. The average person doesn't pay a huge mortgage bill. You know, our payment here without going into detail is much more than the average person is going to pay in their lifetime for for for mortgage alone, not not including everything else, upkeep and electricity. And you name it, right? Why am I saying that to you? I'm saying that because God has proven to be faithful in every element that God is taking care of us and God does take care of us and and and God knows my heart because because I will tell him, Lord, is it because you don't want me serving you anymore? And as a pastor, should I step out? Is it time? And he supplies. And he says, no, son, no, I will supply your need. I'm putting you back where you were 39 years ago to trust me because maybe I forgot. Maybe I started taking for granted all his probation. And so those are the things that make me know my God is trustworthy and and he loves us and he loves his church. That's the stuff that goes into my heart that makes me trustworthy for my wife. My God is trustworthy for me. I should be trustworthy for others, right? It's a real simple principle. And so, you know, Marie, Marie, I don't have to speak where she says it herself, but she has no reason to ever not trust me. I will never give her a reason, John. And that's not pride. That's not a boast. And let him who think if he stand, take heed, lest he fall. Well, I'm aware of my own weaknesses. And and I am aware of the devices of Satan and how he works and how he'll undermine and he'll put something in your path at a certain weak moment to under. I know how he works in those ways in my life. It's not that I know every way, but I've been with the Lord almost 50 years. I've learned some things. And the one thing that I do that Marie can tell you and I speak for her because she doesn't mind me doing it is I will never betray my wife. You know, there are things I will never do. And that's one of them because my greatest love outside of Christ is my wife. She has been my greatest support, greatest friend, greatest encouragement, truest love. She's all those things. Why would I break that trust? Why would I lose that love that I see in her eyes every time she looks at me? Why would I lose for what? For what? For pride, for money to be with another woman? That's all ridiculous to me. No, no, I will I will not do that. And so she knows that she knows her been testing. She knows that there been will be real on this program and say this, there have been women in the church who have gone after me. Marie's aware of, you know, they'll go after an ugly toad. You know, you don't have to even be handsome. Why did you look at me when you said that? Well, I wanted to tell you about about Cha Cha, who likes you. Cha Cha. Cha Cha. Cha Cha Moreno. She's been writing love stories to you. Oh, my. But the bottom line is I, I don't know what you live for, John. I can't speak for you. But I know what I live for. I want to hear the well done. And I never want to lose her love. That's what I live for. And I never want to lose my children's love and my grandbaby's love. And I don't want to lose that. It's that valuable. And so she knows that about me. She knows that about me and the helps her to trust me. I fear God and I love my wife. She knows that. So I would hope that every man could say what I just said. Right. I would hope every woman could look at her husband the way my wife looks at me. And admires and respects. And I'm, I, you know, I've said it. I've said it in church. I say it before my girl here. I'm her hero. I'm her hero. She knows no man greater than me because I have intended to be that man and I've succeeded. And I will continue to succeed because she's that important to me. I will be that hero. And every woman wants a man that she can look up to John and to say that that's the man that I married and I love him. Well, for me, that matters a lot. A lot. I don't, I really don't care what other people say about me that much. I do appreciate nice things who doesn't. But there's only a few people in this world. If there is the number one, there's only a few people in this world. That that kind of comment matters. I mean, it's all said and done. When I'm laying on that bed and I'm about to go to heaven, my church is not going to be in there with me. All these people that have approached me over time is, oh, I love you pastor, only to be gone two weeks later. You know, I got a letter from a guy saying, I just love you. I want you to know that. Two weeks later, he's gone in another church. He never even told me. He had just written me how much I love you and you're my pastor. You've been my pastor for years. And then two weeks later, I find out he's somewhere else and I wrote him and I said, you were just telling me how much you love me. Could have said goodbye while you were at it, right? See, so I've had a lot of goodbyes. I've had a lot of, oh, you're the best. So I don't even listen to those things. I don't, you know, I appreciate them, but I don't listen to them. Why? Because there's only one person that is stuck with me through everything from the first minute this church was planted to the moment we're sitting right here. There's only one and it's been my girl, you know? So why would I want somebody else's attention and affection? No, so she trusts that. She trusts that. And I'm just, she's, I can say the same problem. There's no man in the world that, no man in the world that she would want other than me. And praise God for that. That's what marriage is supposed to be. Right, right, it is. You know, pastor, you mentioned something and I'm wondering even for some of the guys that are watching here, I know this, we're talking about couples, but for the men that are watching, I wonder how many guys are really out there who are thinking that I don't deserve God's love or how can God love me? Or who am I really in Christ? Because once that's settled, then there's the trust, because if some guys can come, they have a, they're suspicious on everything, right? When's a carpet gonna be pulled out from underneath me? It can't, how can he love me? Or, and so there's that suspicious heart already in addition to, I'm not good enough, which are amazing tactics from the enemy to keep us from really receiving God's love. What would you say, what would you, even to the ladies that may be feeling, I'm not worthy to be loved or how can God love me so much? Because you said something interesting, pastor. When that's settled and we can understand that, that's when we trust in the Lord that gives us the ability to have that trust between a husband and a wife. What would you guys say to those, that man or that woman who's really, really, how can God really love me? There was a, one of my favorite stories in the New Testament, it was found in Mark nine. It's when Jesus was there in the Mount Transfiguration and he had come down after that moment up there with Moses and Elisha and his men. And when he came down the hill, the apostles who had been left behind were in the midst of a commotion because the man had brought his son to them and had asked them to cast a demon out of them. And they had attempted to, but they had failed. And so the Pharisees and religious leaders were making a great to do over this failure. And I love this story because Jesus first comes and protects his men. What do you, he goes like that. I can almost see him lifting his chin like a good Chicano. You know. Forgive me for those of you who are not a Mexican American ancestry. You know what I mean? Just, what are you talking to him about? That shepherd, that shepherd heart of Jesus to protect his men. So he takes upon himself the ire, you know. The man walks up and says, I brought my son. I brought my son to your men because the demon takes him and casts him into the water throws him into the fire. And I brought him so that your men might cast him out and they failed. They couldn't do it. And Jesus asks them, bring the boy to me. And so as he speaks to the man, he says to him, everything's possible to the one who believes. And the man's response, Lord, I believe. But he goes on in the King James. I memorized that many years ago. Help down mine, unbelieve. Lord, I believe. That's not the thing that worries me. It's my unbelief that I have the struggles with. There are things that I know intellectually that are accurate and true. My God doesn't lie. He has said it, therefore it's true. I do believe that there are elements of my faith that are so weak. Son found it so, so in need of help. You know, unbelief sometimes can be a very religious experience. Religious people are the ones sometimes who struggle with unbelief, you know? And so what happens is, yeah, God so loved the world. I'm part of that world. God loved me, but we don't let the seat of the word fall deeply within us. It's kind of on a shallow level where we acknowledge that there is truth to that. My God doesn't lie, but in terms of the experiential knowledge, the depth of understanding, it's not there. That's why as you've been going through, as you went through Ephesians where Paul prayed that God would make it clear to these people, that they'd be able to comprehend with all the saints. Why is that? Well, because we deal with unbelief is because we hear and we intellectually believe we say we do, and there's no reason to say that there's not fact in that we do. But there are levels of experiential knowledge that God gives us. There's the gnosis, but then there are those who would speak of the epinosis, you know? The deeper personal experiential knowledge beyond the intellectual, that that runs deeper into the soul, that epinosis, the experiential knowledge. I know this scripture says God loves me. And then, but God helped my unbelief. If there's anything that I would, as a pastor say, is very prominent in the church world today, John, it's people quoting scriptures they really haven't understood yet. And you see it on Facebook and Instagram all the time when people say, well, to me, it means this. So their experience dictates their understanding. They ice the jeep, they read into scripture, their own personal understanding and opinions, right? Instead of exegeting, instead of having it speak plainly its own sense to their hearts, right? So I really believe that what God would have, those who have doubt is, you would have them spend some time alone with them. Get on your face and your carpet in your bedroom, you know, ask the wife, could you step out for a while and you'll spend time with the Lord and stay in that room, stay in that room like the old saints used to do until you have your breakthrough, until you know. And you walk out and you say, you know what, my God heard me. And my life has been a series of those things where I've been brought to the edge of the sea, but the water's not parted, you know? And I've had to hear the words of Moses in a personal level, stand still and see the salvation of the Lord. Watch what God will do and then later on crossing the Jordan, you know, your feet will touch the water, it'll part. Which I find interesting because on the one part with the cross and the Red Sea, God caused a wind to come to part the sea on their behalf. They needed to see he was with them. But when they conquered the land, they needed to step in in faith. And the minute the priest, he'd hit that water, it parted before them. They had to take the plunge, if you will. They had to trust him and it opens up. And you wanna get beyond the stand still. You wanna get to the step in, you know? And I believe that that comes through prayer and it comes from putting into practice what the Spirit says to His word and it comes through accepting and acknowledging that these things apply and God does work. And a lot of times we hear people say, I believe in the power of prayer. I believe in the power of God who answers prayer, you know, because a lot of people pray. But no, I believe in the power of God, the God who answers our prayer. Call unto me, I will answer thee and show the great and mighty things which thou knowest not. I can do things above anything you can ask or think. Well, I don't know how much I ask and I don't know how much I think. But over time, you start finding yourself asking and thinking different things because you've experienced different things, right? And so for me in ministry, it's been a matter of applying what I know to the situation and seeing the Lord true to His word and then you grow an experience of that. That all comes back to our marriage, to our marriage. You know, there are very few things that you have that are deeply, more deeply personal than your marriage. Very few things. Your relationship with God and your prayer life is very personal that your relationship with your spouse is right behind that. And so the most intimate thing a man does with his wife isn't physical. The most intimate thing he does is pray because your soul is opened up and she sees what your heart really is when you really pray. Those are the things that I think many men fail to realize that they're reading the word and coming to their wife and Maria and I can tell you this is true, you know. I talk to her all the time about what I'm gonna teach or what the Lord has taught me in the Word and that's our conversation not every minute of the day but a good portion of it. Hey baby, I wanna tell you, you know what I saw? I was reading and that's kind of what we do and she does devotion. She'll walk up with a little devotional book and she'll say, listen to this, you know what she wants to tell me, something she just learned and that's pretty much our life. And so when you combine those things, it makes what we are, you know. I'm so thankful that God placed me in the ministry because it's a place that she needed a pastor for a husband, not just a guy who's gonna, and there's nothing wrong with this, God knows this who's got other work to do and then comes church. She needed a guy like me because she's a woman like that. She wants a spiritual leader, not simply a provider or a conversationalist. She wants a spiritual leader, someone that she can speak to and say, I'm hurt for this or I'm afraid of that or I'm concerned about this and not hear me just say, you know right now I'm watching the game we'll talk later on. She really needs that, you know. I believe every marriage that really is needed because the husband is the priest of the home. The husband is what I mean when Paul's saying if you, to the women in First Corinthians, if you have a question, he said, ask your husbands at home. What is that restriction, a woman in church? No, he's saying your husband ought to be your spiritual leader and if you've got a question, he should be equipped to answer it and Marie needed that, she needed that but every Christian woman who loves Jesus needs that too and husbands, many are failing. Not those who are watching right now because this is an option. They're listening, they don't have to. Maybe mommy made you, they don't have to and why are they listening? Because they want to be the man of God that God wants them to be and those are the ones who are watching us and who will watch us because as we've seen hundreds watch us live but then others will watch over the weekend and these are men who want to be God's men and women who want husbands who is God's men and who want to be a woman of God and it all works out in your marriage. If you can't live for Jesus in your home you have no business trying to talk about him in public. You don't because you're not, you're not pastoring your church, you're not ministering to the flock, you're not tending and mending, you're not doing that. So if you can do that in home if my wife can listen to me speak in church it's only because she's able to listen to me speak in the house, that's how that works because I could never preach to this congregation knowing my wife knows that I'm really not that guy that is preaching out there. So if a man can teach his wife, he can teach anyone and that's a real important thing. You know, a while back in our conversation said you had 50 employees, does that include me? I don't know. Well I have 50 men who work and I've got you, John. This is a question for both of you. How does a couple safeguard trust in a marriage? I don't, you know, again, you know me and you don't mind me bouncing in, right baby, don't you? Okay, yeah. I'm not a guy who gives you 10 ways to do that. I'm not that guy. I believe that my entire ministry of safeguarding trust is just being a man who can be trusted and that comes from my walk with God. You know, I pray and I do the basic things, you know, things that Jesus said to do. I do those things in a pray and I try to live out what I teach other people. So the sincerity of my heart I think is what Marie trusts in. She sees that this is a man who's not perfect but who is certainly moving in the direction he's supposed to go and that safeguards her. Now, I have been blessed with a woman that I don't have to try to force to read and force to sit down and talk about Jesus. There are homes, I'd say a huge amount percentage-wise of homes where that's just not true, where perhaps the husband's not the leader and the wife doesn't respect him as a leader anymore or the woman refuses to listen to what the husband says. I've had conversations in the past with women who quite obviously would be very difficult for me to have as a wife simply because they can be, some have been so harsh and so demanding and you know, without judging them they must have good reasons why they have become like that and I'm certainly not judging them because you normally become something because of what went on and you're responding to it. And so that's no judgment. It's what I'm saying is that I have seen that and I have thought at this moment that this woman, the way she is would be very, very difficult to lead, because she's demanding on her, making demands on her husband that I wouldn't put up with. And I think that's part of what Marie and I, she and I have an agreement that she's not my mother and I'm not her dad. So she's not gonna tell me what to do and I don't tell her what to do. What we do is what is good for us. That's what I mean when I say we chose us and but somebody's gotta end up making a decision and take the responsibility for it and all the way back in the book of Genesis when Sarah is giggling in her tent because God has just spoken concerning children and all and God says to Abram, why did Sarah laugh? And I always look at that and I realize that Abram was responsible for the wife. God didn't say, Sarah, why are you laughing? He said to Abram, why is she laughing? Because obviously Abram hadn't taught her to trust God. Abram had not really instructed her and even if this is beyond belief, a woman's gonna be 90 years old, that didn't laughing matter when God speaks, you just trust him, right? And but who did he speak to? He didn't speak to a woman hiding behind, in that tent, he spoke to the husband. And so I saw that a long time ago and I came to realize that I have great responsibilities and so as a husband, you take them seriously but the wife also has responsibilities. And Sarah, the scripture says, Sarah obeyed Abram and called him Lord. You know, that is a slave relationship, you know, a demeaning relationship. That's a respect relationship where she knew his word was solid and that he was a man of honor. And because of that, she became a princess, you know, because her name means that. From Sarai, which was dominator, she became princess. And how did that happen? Well, her husband did the right thing in honoring God and she respected him and her dominating personality, you know, going to my handmaiden and fulfill the promise God made you and created the problem that exists to this day. And he listened to the voice of his wife, you know, instead of trusting the Lord. So they learned together, but at the end, she called him Lord and she obeyed him. You know, she hearkened to his voice and did that, which was necessary. Obedience is not simply doing something. Obedience is a heart that's willing to follow what has been said. So her heart was changed. It was in just her physical, I'll do it, but I don't want to. It was more of a, I do that out of the pleasure of my heart to do the right thing. And then that came through their marital relationship in the walk of God. So you can see where obedience then leads to trust, which then leads to the roles that God has called us to be. Yeah, I think you trust and obey and then you trust even more. You remember that old song? That's what I'm trusting. No, no, no, no. There's no other way. You're going to love the Lord. You're going to want to obey him. Right. And I want to know who loves the Lord. I will do the things that she ought to do. She should do the things that if she really loved the Lord, we'll do the things that a woman ought to do for her husband. Yeah, that's true. I'm trying to teach my wife that verse to call me Lord, but she still hasn't memorized it yet. Oh, that's such a long verse too. But you're right, Marie. And again, trusting and obeying is so key for us to fulfill the roles that God has called us to be for husband and wife. Because a woman can be so, where are you? What are you doing? Who are you with? You know, I've talked to a woman. What's he doing? I think is he out with somebody else? And if you're going to do that to your husband all the time, it's not going to work very well. But you've got to trust God and you've got to end up, you've got to pray for your husband and show him love, rather than constantly bringing up things too. And some of the things of the past that people have doubt, you know, some things that are past, leaving them in the past, you have to learn to forgive. That's right. You really do. The two need to forgive one another for whatever, for whatever they've caused problems in the marriage. If there's a humility, that needs to be in the marriage. You know how I can tell when I'm dealing with a couple, how I can tell where there's no forgiveness is when they argue that it's a first thing they bring up to one another. Yes, exactly. And they're throwing that becomes this tennis match that tick for tacking and discussing those things that I can tell you haven't forgiven them for this. Exactly. Or there's a pseudo forgiveness that's involved and that's not really, and that can really hinder the trust in the relationship within the marriage. If we were to, as we close this segment on trust, if you can complete this sentence, without trust, a marriage will be like yours. I walked right into that one. You did, John. You did. I wanna try that again. Okay. Let me see how I can reword this. Without trust being a key component in a marriage, what would the outcome be? Unhappiness, a lack of joy, no fulfillment of the marriage. Happiness, a lack of joy, no fulfillment. No love. No love. That's almost like the walking dead, then. I mean, if you don't have that in your marriage. That's a key component. As a matter of fact, I would have to say it's something that, when you brought up the topic today, because we hadn't spoken and so you hadn't mentioned to me, so I haven't been thinking about that element. For us, Marie and I would not be together at all. If we didn't have that at first, it was already there. I mean, it's in every small element of relationship, I call Marie, I say we're dating, I call her up, Marie, you have time to visit. Is there somebody there? She's got a guy in the other room or whatever, and oh no, she never did anything like that. There's nobody here. So from the beginning, I knew she was true to her word, from the beginning. When I said, I'll be there at such and so time and I'll pick you up, I trusted she'd actually be there. I was driving from Norwalka to Ontario with a 40, 45 minute drive. I was trusting that she was gonna be there because in the past, I had girlfriends where I would say, I'm gonna come and they're not even there, they're out with their friends or doing something. We've all experienced disappointments and relationships and no, this girl was always there. So from the very beginning, she was trustworthy. I went to Europe for three months when we were dating and I never thought that I would lose her to some other guy. I never felt I could, had she decided to go out while I was gone, that would have been up to her, I didn't own her. She makes her own choices as to whether or not she wants to be with me and make us an exclusive relationship and all. And one of my friends, Monty, one of my friends, while I was gone, gave her a call or talked to you at some event and said, well, Marie, we ought to go out. One of my ex-friends, we ought to go out. I never would have, in a thousand years, thought she would have gone out with my friend Monty and she didn't. She did go out with some officer, some CHP guy, because her roommate encouraged her, oh, you might as well go out and just, which I was not happy when I heard about that, but it was not romantic by any means. She just got out of the house to do something and even so, if she decided to go out with him, who am I to tell her not to, right? I mean, I don't own her. I don't own her heart, and so I came home and she was real quick to let me know. There's a guy, I went bowling and that was it, no romance, nothing at all, and I thought, well, whatever, because I trusted her and it was from there. We weren't even really that solid yet, but from there, I got home from Europe and we went to a King's game, an LA King's hockey game. I was so jet-lagged, I fell asleep in a hockey game, all the screaming, yelling, and fighting, and that was just in the stands. There's even worse stuff going on in the ring, but it was there. I was sitting and we both actually dosed off, and it was at that game, at that game that I realized that not only did I miss her for the three months that I was gone, but that I didn't want to be away from her ever again. It was at that game. It was that when I finally said to her, I love you. I love you, and I meant it, because to me, the word love, I love you. This church doesn't know that. I say it to them and they think it's just some guy to say it's not true. I don't say that. I don't use that word. We were married, and I wouldn't say that to Marie. It's that precious a word. So when I tell this church I love this church, they just think I'm saying it. They don't know that this is a man who doesn't use that word except when it's real. And so when I was with Marie, and she could tell you that as my girlfriend. As a wife, I didn't say it to her. As a wife, I had to learn to say it to her. I just thought, well, what do you need to hear that for? Are you insecure? I'm teasing. Mm-hmm. And say, tell me you love me. How much do you love me? And I'd say, why would I tell you that? I'm teasing. Yeah, so you're insecure. Why do you always ask me that? I mean, if I didn't love you, I wouldn't be here. I'm a real matter of fact person. And so all of that goes into trust is built over time. It's fragile, but it's built over time to the point that where people see our relationship who know us well, you see it, some do. You say David, you're saying David and Marie. You're not just saying David. You say Marie, it's always gonna bring in David. Why is that? Because the two became one. Because that's how that worked. And so with God as put together, we're not gonna destroy. We're not. And it's all built on the love of Christ, the love of God. And part of the element of love is to trust one another. And we do, we do. Trust the Lord with all your heart, right? Yeah. Amen. And we trust each other. Yes. And we've been blessed. Amen. Non-measuring. And even in the days where there wasn't a lot of, we didn't have furniture. Furniture was from somebody who'd given to us. So we paid $5 for whatever. Those were the sweetest times, one of the sweetest times. And God never went without. He was always faithful. God was always faithful. And even when David talks about the bed that was there, our first bed. Yeah, roll out. Roll out. There was no complaint. You know, we never complained. I mean, those are, you look back and you think, thank you, God, thank you, thank you. So. She never, she, Marie has never made me feel I can't provide. Has never, has never made me feel less of a man because I couldn't give her a vacation or take her for a dinner or buy her some clothes. She's never made me feel that, John. I've never felt like a failure in that. I've wanted to do more for her. I have personally felt that on my own, I have personally felt that I am a failure. I have felt that, but she's never made me feel that. She re-told me something when we were dating, because I told her I'm coming home from Europe and Marie, I don't have any money. I'm, we can't go out on dates and we don't, I don't, I spend it and I have to go back to school. We're not going to be going anywhere. She said to me, I don't care. She says, as long as it's just you and me together, it's all I want. She's been that way since before we got married. So I've never felt this pressure to be something I'm not, to do for her or else I'll lose. I don't have any of that because what we have, John, and not everybody has that, is we have each other. And really, I say this all the time. People eventually will believe it, I think. Where she is, I'm home. Where she is, I'm happy. That's a fact, wherever it may be, whether it's in our little home that we had in Ontario or later on when we moved into a home that was larger. I was always home, regardless of this 900 square foot home where I live now. It's because home is her, home is her. And wherever she is, I'm content. And she's never demanded anything from me, anything. To make me feel that I should give her this thing so she is happy. What she wanted was me. And that's the thing that I don't get, you know? Seriously, that's the thing I don't get, but that's what she wants, you know? That's the love of God, is what he wants us to be too. And that's what makes your heart safely trusted. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And vice versa, right? Yeah, yeah. And vice versa. Well, you guys, thank you so much and speaking on the topic of trust and you guys gave us some very practical insight and in ways that not only do we continue to trust each other but to trust in the Lord. Thank you guys. Of course.