 And Michael Kreil is an expert for data analysis and data visualization, and he very intensely looked into how it came about that people that you thought would be very rational, out of a sudden radicalized up to right-wing extremism. Two years ago he gave a talk about fake news and filter bubbles, and a lot of the things he's going to tell right now is going to point to that. So take a look at that previous talk and have a big hand for Michael. Yeah, good morning. Well, I made a trap for you. I wrote internet about my talk so that people show up at all. Actually, it's about racism in society that I want to talk about. So two years ago I gave a talk about what effects we find on the internet and filter bubbles, echo chambers, fake news and so on. And a lot of people from extremism research, from social sciences, psychology, political sciences talk to me. How could you explain that, what is happening in the internet there? And is there the cause or is it an effect of something? And the bad news is, well, I think it's a symptom, and it's not the cause of it. And in the previous two years I have looked at several research projects. I've looked at right-wing extremism and racism and how does it interconnect to certain media. Well, mainly the question is what effects are relevant and what's the cause of them and what's the effect, so how to tell those apart. So to take an example with what bullshit topics you have to deal with is the topic of social bots that would radicalize society. I gave a talk in Bulgaria on the OpenFest, the army that never existed, the failure of social bot research. And there's an URL and my lecture notes are on GitHub. The URL is there. So I hope the talk is online in the next couple of days. It's in English and it's a summary who is doing research and on what catastrophic methods of research all the research is built upon. The research is contradictory. There is very, very strange opinions on that and it's bullshit all over and it's accepted by scientific papers, journals. Well, it's rubbish. If you look at the topic of racism and see how it does interact with Internet, we have to talk about what is racism. And I've found if I talk to people about racism, there is different ideas what racism actually is. One reason for that is that it's a very complex phenomenon. It has to do with sociology, political sciences. And we are doing research right now. Up to this day, we are finding new interconnections and we find it's even more complicated than we thought it was. And that means in social sciences there's different views on what is racism actually and what is it not. And I know it's annoying, but it's important to look at the discourse. Normally if I talk to people, okay, it's based on theory of race where you divide people into groups to justify violence from top to bottom. You think about violent youth. But, you know, the term was coined in the beginning of the 20th century, but it's really old. So if you look to the antique times, you would say foreigners are barbarians. And slave trade was also racism-based. And African people were thought of as being underprivileged. And so there was prevalent racism for thousands of years, even if it wasn't called like that. Saying it's a racial theory of race, well, that's not really true, because the actual, this theory as a scientific discipline was not a valid thing to deal with. And so it was rather a racism of the scientists instead of being a theory of race. And it was a pseudo-science thing to legatimate racism. So we can do away with this. It's not just separating people into races. That is not something that we can base anything on. And of course we know that even Nazis would not do in DNA tests. They would just go to ethnic origin, to your citizenship, to your religious beliefs. That's something where you would separate people into groups. Even violence is not a central element of racism. It's also... And we can see the basic concept is about using particular markers to define groups. And you're using that to claim that particular groups are inferior and to essentially put them down. As a graphic example, I made a table with different lines. In horizontally, you have different types of discrimination. And vertically, you have different markers based on which things are being... You can be discriminated. Sometimes you would just talk about racism. As part of racism, some people say insults are... In my opinion, all of this is racism. So it reaches all the way to positive stereotypes. And that's something that we've also known for quite a while. This is also written down in the Basic Law from 1949, which says nobody can be discriminated against or treated preferentially based on their gender, whether from their race, their language, the place of their origin or their religious belief or their political belief. There's a similar agreement on this definition in the UN Convention for the elimination of racism. All of these are forms of racism that includes the positive parts. And so one thing that's notable is that the German Basic Law also names gender as a basis for discrimination. Because if we go back to the slide about the definition where we say, well, what if people are divided into inferior and superior groups based on their gender, that's basically sexism. And then we can see that there's a surprising intersection between racism and sexism because the mechanism is basically the same. And you can expand this even further. I made an entire list. There's antisemitism, sexism, racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, xenophobia towards people from Arab, classism against people from particular parts of society, ageism against people who might be older and who cannot get a land of credit anymore, homophobia, transphobia, ableism. All of these are important topics. Lookism or even there's discrimination based on someone's first name. There's serophobia against people who have HIV-AIDS. There's such a thing as linguist-cesism, which is something that I noticed in myself because for a long time I didn't take people seriously who had a Saxonian accent because I only knew that from comedians. But once you start putting yourself into the place of someone who actually lives in Saxony, and for them it's just the dialect, then for them it's discrimination. Discrimination against people who are homeless, discrimination against people who are out of work, these different types of discrimination are emphasized in different ways and have different degrees of strength. Just because someone has a first name that it gets discriminated against doesn't experience the same degree of discrimination or danger as someone who is threatened with death or murder. Professor Heidmeier, a German sociology professor came up with the idea of animosity towards groups of people, which is basically based on group markers. But I agree obviously that there are different degrees here, but I think it's important to understand the different mechanisms behind it that are essentially the same. But I also think that even Heidmeier's term of group-based animosity is also not the best term because these groups don't actually exist. The people who are perpetrating racism and who are the racists, these people don't actually know each other and they're just put into a group with each other. So even the group itself is a social construct. In addition to that, for example, you see children who are making anti-Semitic jokes, maybe because they're just stupid or because they don't have a very strong value system. It's hard to say that they're expressing animosity towards a particular group. So there's another new term that I really like, which is the generalizing construction of a rejection. This is the most German term that is in this talk. So basically you generalize about a group of people and then you reject them after you construct the group based on what you reject them. This is something that you might also recognize from your own thinking. If you don't study for school, you will have to get other people's trash or you will have to clean other people's houses. I got another example. All cops are bastards. That's also one of those generalizing rejection constructs. Because you generalize about cops, you say all of them are bastards regardless of whether they were born in a wedlock or not. So for example, there are policemen and members of the police who are against police and against other structural problems in the police. They are also being rejected by a statement like this. This is something that you have to realize. Then there is structural racism as well, which also works without racists. Here's one example that you may know. There is a person who needs a white paper towel to get soap from a soap dispenser because when he tries to do it with his own hand, it doesn't work. Because the light sensor seems to have a problem with the color of her skin. The engineers who built it obviously aren't racists. They didn't do that on purpose or deliberately. They did that because they just didn't think of it. Maybe there's also a mechanism of structure. It's also a measure of structural racism that there are only white engineers who are working on this, for instance. I'd also never thought of this. For example, when I'm getting a plaster, that the plaster doesn't have the color of my skin and what does it look like for people with darker skin. There is a person who was walking around and I was like, oh my God, I didn't even think of how happy people might be to get a plaster in the color of their own skin. One thing that I encounter repeatedly is that I can go to the Bullen Museum, I can see the bust of Nefertiti, I can pay 250 and can see a very important, old treasure from Egyptian history. A friend of mine who's actually from Egypt asked me, I asked him, what do you have to do as an Egyptian to go see your own cultural treasure? And then he showed me documents from the German Embassy. Basically, the documents that Egyptians need to fill out and submit. So they need to have a passport, they need to buy a biometric passport photo, then proof of health insurance, proof of hotel reservation, written proof of their flight ticket, chronological information on their bank accounts and the amount of money that they have access to, written proof of employment and for how long they've been employed there. So the list is even longer, I just couldn't keep up, but this is racism. Here is a range of other examples, especially researched and published by TATS, a German newspaper based in Berlin about people who have trouble finding apartments. The first example is by Mr. Ming Li who applied to different apartments in Berlin who next time essentially just applied as Leon Kunze with the same paperwork otherwise and suddenly he was able to get an apartment. So again, that's something that you can also look into and research systematically. Here's a team that looked into job offers and sent two applications to each job offer, one with the Turkish name and one with the German name and then looked at how many callbacks people got and these different experiments gone. You can kind of look at whether that differs between different sectors, whether that differs between based on the size of the company. But here is basically the biggest example is that it's 50% more likely to get a callback if your name sounds German. I didn't know that I hadn't ever even thought about this because I didn't have to think about this type of discrimination because I don't have a Turkish last name when I apply for a job in Germany. That's also something that you can extend to sexism. The question of media, how often the media discuss where a perpetrator or a suspect comes from. There is a study by the Media Service for Integration which is a German organization which looked at how newspapers report on suspects. On the left side you see where people are from based on the police statistics. So 30% are foreigners, 70% are German. In terms of reporting, especially on TV, you can tell that even though only 30% of perpetrators are marked as potential foreigners, Germans are completely underrepresented. So only in three cases do media reports actually say that someone is German. So here is structural racism as a model. I've taken 10 Germans and 10 migrants and so we can see that Germans are underrepresented even though maybe one in 10 is a criminal in both groups of population. But the core problem is that non-criminal migrants are basically invisible in our society. So if I go to the media and want to inform myself about media, about criminals and criminality amongst migrants and asylum seekers, then that obviously leads to a skewed picture because I will only read about crimes being committed by migrants and not hear about any of these other people. A while back I was having a beer with a jurist who spontaneously used the term of structural incitement of hatred. Because for instance if someone says all asylum seekers are all of you, these are criminals, that's incitement of hate. But if you only talk about migrants who are criminals and that's structural incitement of hate. Some examples of racism from my own childhood. So a book, this song is extremely deeply, deeply racist. Ten children die, they have accidents, they shoot each other, they want to steal something from a farmer and after nine children are dead, then another woman finds the child and has ten more children. That's deeply racist. So the question is, is this about children or is the author talking about bugs? Ottowakis, the German comedian, we all laughed a lot about him but I cannot laugh about his racist jokes anymore. Reporting in the media in the 70s and 90s especially cover pictures for a Spiegel, an important German weekly. I found a quote that basically goes, cities such as Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt can barely deal with the invasion anymore. They're starting to create ghettos. This was about Turkish migrants to Germany. Another question is, where did Doc Baum get his plutonium and back to the future? Ah, well, from Lebanese terrorists. Arnold Schwarzenegger obviously was dealing with Arab extremists, Idiana Jones. He's not racist, right? Oh, well, that kind of has several stereotypes in his movies. Arabs are always lazy and always in the way but one thing that really grabbed me is that Idiana Jones' task is to go to other cultures and grab their cultural treasures and bring them to Western museums. That's basically what we were talking about with Nefertiti earlier. That's basically colonialism but culturally. And that's extremely mean because once you start looking into racism you start realizing that it's everywhere and it really is undermining movies that you used to enjoy. And Disney, Disney can't possibly be racist, right? Well, Aladdin, in addition to the fact that the evil Arabs obviously have big noses and all his friends kind of look like Latino teenagers from a U.S. college. But the really crazy thing is the original song, the intro song was originally about the origin of Aladdin. It says they cut off your ear if they don't like your face. That's barbarian, but hey, it's home. After public pressure Disney changed the song. And that's interesting to see how many racist stereotypes you can find in the last century. Arabs are allegedly lazy, primitive, criminal, they're terrorists. But at least they're only Hollywood cliches and stereotypes. But we know that's not true. And then there was September 11, which was almost ready for Hollywood in a movie from Hollywood. People were traumatized. People were watching all of this in TV. The perpetrators, all Muslim men, all young, violent Arabs. Then there were additional terrorist attacks in Europe. I'm sparing you the pictures, but I'm showing you pictures of the memorials here. And again, there is reporting, all of them young Arab or young Muslim men. The question is what does that do to a society if for decades we only always push the same narratives with regards to the media, but also with regards to Islamic terrorism. In 2012 there was a study about the German society with regards to the quote, Muslims and their religion are so different from us that it would be naive to demand the same access to society and to all positions in society for them. And 27% fully agree with this and 30% somewhat agree with this. So the question is essentially like getting at racism. It's asking, do you think people should be excluded based on their religion and their belief? And more than 50% agree with this. So that means racism is not a corner case. It's something where more than half of the people in Germany have racist and Islamophobic ideas. Yeah, but I mean the sentiment is, well, Islam is far, far away. And then there was the war in Syria and we see a lot of young men and they look like the terrorists we've seen before. And the religious monitor of the Bertelsmann Trust says about half of the people we asked think that Islam is a threat. It's more in East Germany and apparently a lot of people see Islam not as a religion but they see it as a political ideology and that means they excluded from religious tolerance. They see the debate and the media reporting are a reason for that because they put Islam into a context of terrorists. So that means racist fears are a mass phenomenon in our society. So more than 50% are afraid for Islamization or are afraid of the Islam. So what are the effects of so many people having those ideas and feelings? So if you think about it, so if people are really, really scared of this religion, so they go with metaphors like a flood of people claiming asylum, a flood of refugees, mass, immigration, invasion. So that means people are metaphorically formed into a weapon and it dehumanizes people and legitimates violence in the end. So now there of course are people who are trying to work against that but they are talked about as traitors, as left fascists, as left-wing bullshit people, as do-gooders, social justice warriors and so we have this idea of the press lying as all being figured out. So those narratives are completely illogical because they only appeal to emotions. People are in panic, they are afraid or in fear and they're using those narratives. And the more effective of that is hate speech. People think about this as verbose self-defense. If you look at Miss Chipley or Miss Hayali which show with what kind of flood of hatred and even death threats they are confronted, they are not only focal points as a person for people who want to conduct and hate speech, but they also have a background, they look like they have a migration background that's what makes them a target. And then there's a lot of people who are really in this fake news world and conspiracy theories world and that makes those people a target and I deeply solidarise with them. So of course with the targets. So people who have racist fears are immune to logical arguments and of course they are on an emotional level. So to say I'm afraid of being in hate, no one could put me on this bridge because it's a glass bridge and no one could even drag me on this because I would be so afraid and so this fear of walking on a glass bridge is completely irrational. But if someone not tells me, well it's certified, it's completely safe, you can absolutely go there. It's a logical argument because I'm afraid of being with my fear of hate. So they had to drag me over this bridge. So that's a problem because if someone is actually in fear or in panic, it doesn't respond to logical arguments and it doesn't work to call people with racist fears Nazis because they are not yet Nazis. But at the time Nazi is just a pre-objective term without actual good content. So if someone tells me about his racist fears and I tell you you're a racist and you are Nazi, they say okay, you're just... Did you value me that? So on psychological level, we say they have a cognitive dissonance. So people with racist fear actually act against their own values and the effects of that is okay. I could look at my fears but I could just find a strategy to circumvent that. For example, here are some examples. So your fear is being directed to different causes. So the contradiction between what I say and what I do is played down. It's an idea of being obligated to act in a racist way or I just simply deny what's happening like fake news in the press and I just select my information and I print my information selectively so that it doesn't reduce my cognitive dissonance. So that's a very, very interesting picture because that's an empty bus with empty chairs but it looks like women wearing a bokeh and people are actually seeing this in there. We were laughing about this and people who are actually that panicking that they actually see empty bus seats as bokeh. So people with racist fears actually need those fake news for their self-confidence so the massive fake news in the social media is not the problem, it's a symptom of what we see. And people with racist fears are very vulnerable to conspiracy theories. For example, if you say well, Chancellor has a plan of getting immigrants into the country you also find anti-Semitic conspiracy theories so that's a plan of Jewish people to get the Muslim people into the country. But what happens if in Germany there's 20 million people with racist panic or racist fears? Well, they take to the streets so you see Pegida, patriotic Europeans, they're serious about fighting against Islamization of Europe. They really believe this and they would like to elect someone who represents them but they cannot find a representation because those party would have to contradict the basic law but there is one party called Alternative for Deutschland the Alternative Party for Germany and so in the names of other party there's something about their value system like a Green Party or a Socialist Party and so that's something that's not attractive for racists but having this alternative that's something that appeals to them. So Bert Lucca and Frau Keperi that you see here they left the party because of their turn to right-wing extremism and there have been warnings in 2015 already about extremist movements in this party which have not been dealt with and the interesting thing is that we have a symbiosis of two powers here we have conservative people here and right-wing extremism in there so the conservatives they say well the right-wing extremism is not that bad I just threw away a quote here but it basically says we have no right-wing extremism in our party and the right-wing extremists they are their part is to get the votes to get the people to vote because when people say well after they are right now is in the parliament is it part of established parties no it's still very very extremist people in there and that makes them attractive for voters and that's a symbiosis that only works in this interplay so you see people who left this party tried to found their own parties they didn't work only this symbiosis here makes it work so let's look at the international part so if you look at the western society so what's reality and what is the idea of having muslim people in the country so in Germany we have 5% muslims and people think it's more than 20% of people living in the country so in almost all countries there's a great overestimation of how many muslims in there so let's look at what connects the voter bases of right-wing parties or right-wing extremist parties they have the very same opinion when it comes to immigration they are widely different parties but when it comes to racism and to immigration they have to share the same ideas so those parties have constituted a platform for voting potential from the right-wing and right-wing extremists so if you look at the brexit then we also have muslims race them towards muslims as part of the brexit campaign then in France 84 year old men attacked a mosque especially the immigration said the press in France is warning of muslim immigration Netherlands there's also from the right-wing party a warning there is Islamization you have the same thing in Italy so we don't want any immigration especially from muslim and african countries they say if you look at the USA you have the muslim ban and you have the how do I call that the racist wall that he built and a lot of people did not understand why do people elect someone and just don't seem to recognize that he is racist and the thing is they don't elect him in spite of him being a racist they don't elect him because he is a racist so if an impeachment would remove Donald Trump the racist potential in society is still there and at that point people maybe would look back and say well Trump was an idiot so he wasn't clever enough to break all of the things or didn't establish fascism that might be something that we could see in a review you might remember the chancellor debate more than half of the time was about terror Islam migration and deportation obviously you can also indoctrinate people and make them believe that this is an important topic by simply covering it highly well, again structural incitement of hate something that especially appears in the Biltzeitung which is an important german tabloid I scraped the 20 most red built articles in october 2019 out of the 20 most red articles six are about criminality by migrants there are none that portray migrants in any particularly positive picture and then even the other 20 most red ones are articles that essentially push this AFD alternative for germany right wing narrative the greens are losing money the antifa is putting our freedom into danger at this point the former editor in chief who worked for the Bilt for 10 years now calls the Bilt a de facto organizational part of the AFD this far right party that I was talking about earlier so basically all these narratives that the AFD is using a lot of these they didn't even develop themselves but a lot of these narratives existed before and they simply had to grab them from the Bilt newspaper we really have to say that western media have failed to generate terrorist propaganda terror is not a military strategy it's something that's a communication strategy and it tries to generate spectacular pictures that works you need to generate clicks we know this from when a famous person a celebrity takes their life then you need to be really careful because if you report on it too much then there are people who imitate the suicide why don't you do that we should maybe be doing the same right because if you say you report on a terror attack then you need to kind of put a caveat we know that this is supposed to scare you but don't be scared media have basically been practicing structural incitement of hate for years they make money with this I don't want to generalize here I want to use a few examples of media that actually do a really good job of this for example there's the NDR with German public broadcasting service that did a really good job of interviewing refugees Spiegel online the online version of the Spiegel had an article on celebrities that used to be refugees there was a Tagess Spiegel newspaper in Berlin which produced one edition that was entirely produced by people who were refugees there was another radio feature as well that was also about racism for government deal with this there is a program called Live Democracy initially created by the SPD the Social Democratic Party it has around 1 million euros for different civil society projects that work against racism and far-right extremism for instance an exit program for neo-nazis but that was supposed to lose some of its money in 2019 there was an attack in Halle in October 2019 a few hours later this this was an attack against the synagogue a few hours later the government changed its mind there are here a few examples from the CDU Merkel's Christian Democratic Union there's Robert Moritz who was a far-right extremist as Christina Schröder who often gets attention for her far-right positions where she says essentially claims that Muslim men are generally more prone to violence sometimes claims that this is related to their norms claims that they are hard to integrate she wanted to cut financial support for measures against right-wing extremism after the National Socialist Underground was blown up in November 2011 it became very clear that there was a far-right terror organization at the time the German minister was trying to take the money away but after it came out that there was right-wing extremism she had to stop cutting money for them the young union which is the young person's arm of the CDU wants to take money away from the Amador Antonio Foundation which works against anti-Semitism the CDU wants to undermine associations that are working against far-right terrorism for the longest time they only tried to support research that only looked into Islamic terrorism but not into far-right extremism until very recently we can't wait until people die first we need to start looking into this but right now the way it works people die and only then is money being given into research but Tina Kudder is talking about how people are being replaced kind of like this great replacement rhetoric Kavegna says that saving people in the Mediterranean is a cap service Hans-Peter Friedrich from the CSU called People Who Are Demonstrating Against the AfD left-wing fascist other people Söder from the CSU is talking about asylum tourism Thomas de Miser is talking about People Who Refuse to Integrate Andreas Scheuer from CSU says that once you have a football playing Senegalese who has been here for three years the worst thing is that you can never get rid of him ever again and then Jens Spahn also from the CSU said we have more in common with the AfD than with the SPD, thank you the Western society has a mass phenomenon of Islamophobic racism and we don't want to see it instead we deal with the symptoms this is something that I tried to portray as a graphic so racism is a mass phenomenon possibly pushed by or probably pushed by international terrorism and unreflected very one-sided reporting it's further exacerbated by politicians who essentially normalize racism and want to use this as a tool to gain votes and in addition this is exacerbated by structurally racist reporting that kind of confirms racism again I propose to use the term structural incitement of hatred and this mass movement has all of these results such as hate speech thoughts of murder, fake news, echo chambers AFD and Pegida and right-wing extremism all of these are consequences of course we can do something against hate speech but the real problem is racism as a mass phenomenon which is the core root of the issue and since I have a bit more time I want to use another example there was the case of Wechtersbach tried to shoot a man from Eritrea afterwards someone researched where this man came from what his social environment was and so he obviously had a pub where they were produced racist on a daily basis the attack in Halle where a man tried to enter a synagogue and in his background a background story had an interview with his mother who also has anti-Semitic positions and I think that's really interesting because we're talking about radicalization online because we can look at it online but what we can't research as easily is radicalization at home or radicalization in your favorite pub that you go to every day and it's not visible and just because we can see it online and on the internet that doesn't mean that it's the internet's fault because racism essentially comes from within society four reasons why we all need to pay attention to racism now these are the bad news only if you look into racism can you recognize it and do anything against it one thing that I noticed before when I was confronted with racism I often didn't recognize it and in addition to that I started to essentially mark it as racism because I was lacking this deeper understanding of the underlying mechanisms secondly only if you start looking into racism can you also recognize it in yourself this is really bad news for you once I started looking into this I also started realizing how many racist stereotypes I have myself and only then can you start questioning getting rid of those racist stereotypes that you hold now is really bad news why do people profit from racism so next time you end up in a police check or if a police check that's doing racial profiling works past you you profit because it hits someone else or when you get an apartment instead of someone else or if you get a job instead of someone else who has a Turkish name in every single case you profit from racism and you benefit from racism and not seeing racism is part of structural racism if you ignore racism you're part of it for decades I had the benefit of being able to say I didn't know I could say I didn't know I wasn't sure that there was structural racism I didn't know it existed in society I just didn't know I'm sorry the bad news is well I just took that innocence away from you and so I confronted you with well now if you continue to close your eyes you're participating thanks for this very very interesting talk we have a couple of so and before we come to the questions just your translators we are FL Burger and YT Chen and now we start with the questions maybe I'm going to meet Christina Schröder what I'm going to tell her or what do I say if she says something or if she doesn't say something that I can talk something to her but if I can talk to her I can talk that's a good question that's incredibly difficult I think there's two levels of which you have to talk about one is what can you do against racism that's not an easy topic especially once people have gotten lost in a world of racist anxiety I mean we can't give 50% of the population in therapy for anxiety and I think that's the most important thing is to question all of these structures that support structural racism especially structures that continue to perpetrate these racist narratives Christina Schröder is also the racism or used to be the expert for racism and extremism so maybe a conversation with some researchers might be sensible for her maybe getting informed yourself might be a good basis for talking to her once you encounter her especially with regards to her statements about Muslims being particularly dangerous or particularly hard to integrate so next there's a question from the internet and I see there's a couple of people who are atheists and they have a lot of debates about circumcision of voice the borderline to racism here how do you discuss it without racism that's incredibly difficult we know this topic that there are several military actions by Israel and it's hard to criticize them without being called an anti-Semite or ending up in the same position as an anti-Semite and that's incredibly hard and I'm sorry but there's no easy answer but yeah it's just very hard but to date I was missing this debate about this which would be the necessary basis for getting to a solution there might be no solution to this there might be no easy answers but yeah next there's a question from the microphone for that was a great talk thank you and well thinking about your t-shirt so for us potato Germans so I was surprised that it changed my view so we're talking about 20 million people are in racist panic or fears but we also have 20 million people with a migration background who are also in fear could be in fear and in the debate we're not talking about their emotions and we're talking about the potato Germans in fear yeah the invisibility of people who are victims of racism is an important part of structural racism they're not being listened to you're not giving them room to speak about this there are several programs there's for example the half potato podcast which deals a lot with people from different backgrounds and they really make jokes about how once they want to fly somewhere they need to arrive there two or three hours early or need to get rid of their beard because otherwise they will be racially profiled and cannot go on their holiday and for them that's almost normal and being confronted with that I think is incredibly helpful so halbe kartoffel is an important recommendation maschalla by katrin runöcke is also a very good podcast because there are different formats that essentially deal with people and empower people who you could meet at any point in time those people finally get an opportunity to talk about racism and I think that's the important thing to be able to be aware of that next there's microphone 7 ok thanks for the talk so at at the end you said ok when you don't see racism you're part of it and at the beginning you're talking about cognitive dissonance so my question is how do I help people to see that and to accept that there is racism as I said that's hard we're really missing there's a lack of solutions and tools confronting people could maybe help for instance inviting the family but that's really hard I really don't have any solutions to be honest one thing I was concerned with in the first place is what are these phenomena this slant in politics in reporting that's where I wanted to where I saw racism as a mass phenomenon that I really don't know maybe there are people who know more about this than me but one thing I can really advocate is that we need to stop essentially further exacerbating this racism so we have time for one question do we yeah ok number 4 hi did you think about in your research what role school and education play and how we could at this early stage how does manipulation happen there by teachers by media or by in the schoolyards well this research into pubs families the social environment is extremely hard Heidmeier is also a scientist of education so is also a scientist who basically researches youth culture and youth education and I know anecdotes but I'm not where I don't think it can be researched systematically and obviously what you see there are things that kids also bring into school from home so I don't know anything more specific about it okay is there are there more questions yep okay yeah you said that everyone's racist when you take a job or you take you can get a flat that because someone is being discriminated in that process well that means everyone is racist but what can I do about it what can anyone do about it being racist by yeah what can you do but take a flat saying you are racist just because you accept the apartment the point from which you are racist that's really hard to say but what I want to point out is that you benefit from racism so if you're a white person you profit from structural racism and as long as you're a man you benefit from structural sexism that's something that I really wasn't aware of before only once you start looking into this and once you hear victims talk about how you're being discriminated and visible only then are you being confronted with this and that's why I can only recommend to everyone even if the degrees to which you benefit are incredibly small you're still automatically part of the structure because it's structural racism and that basically creates an obligation for all of us to inform ourselves okay next there's a question from number one I I think it's not bad if Christina Schröder the former minister makes problematic statements the second is is it a problem that we that things we want to change in our society we always have this war rhetoric if you want to fight racism if we want to if we want to kill racism or swipe out or something I think that people who dealing with racism they have this I think it's difficult for people to deal with or to accept there is racism when this rhetoric is there oh yeah I think that's very clear a lot of things are escalating as well and are mutually reinforcing each other as well once someone says that your family is racist when someone is saying something racist I might also say oh you're voting for a fascist party even if it's not really his fault basically it's completely irrelevant whether I managed to convince him or not but my anger also is then projected onto this other person which is why it's incredibly hard to discuss these things but at the moment we're not discussing these things at all so when you meet with people over a coffee or a beer then sexism or racism it's not really something that you talk about on a regular basis even though so many people are affected by it and that's really sad ok next there's a question from number 7 I would like to say to the whole topic Toboka Ogete and her book Exit Racism Racism Critical Thinking I would like to recommend that and I would be interested in more recommendations yeah that's very good I also read the book there's an incredible wealth the only appeal that I can make to you is we need to talk about racism more I'm not really prepared to actually do that myself right now I can only say this is what we've observed over the past few years those are the effects of that and so what we do now and what we can do ourselves I didn't even start talking about that, that's not even part of it ok next there's another question from another microphone so thanks again for the talk I have two things I would like to say so first is I have a migration background I'm living in Germany for 10 years and I'm a lot in a lot of discourses and it's divided you know people with a background in immigration they talk on their own and then you have the Germans discussing this separately from us so racism is not only fundamental of course there's racism in immigrants and I think that that has a social economical background so what job do I have how much money do I have how much money I have inherited and those elements are you know I think we should talk more about this and what's your opinion on that and why are those elements not in this talk yeah I also noticed that I was at several events for example in a university environment that only affected university students or an activist context that we're discussing this but that the kind of whole of society discussion is missing I mean I have this forum and so I use opportunity to discuss to bring up this topic here but I really think it has to become bigger yeah I don't know whether that helps okay we're time for one final question number three okay thank you I would like to say something to school and how things start there how discrimination incites there so I don't know how it's in sexism so my children are lucky or unlucky and a Bavarian grammar school there is a school service a Christian school service and that means that children go with their teacher to the next church and of course only the children of Christian believe all other children have to stay at school and do something else and I see there's you know they have this structural divide in their in grammar school even in children by saying okay one religion is well maybe superior or at least has a special status and personally as an atheist I also feel discriminated in this regard and I just wanted to give this as a hint how even in grammar schools children are indoctrinated yeah as you you can see once you start seeing this once you can see it everywhere you notice it everywhere okay thanks again thanks again for the questions and there is a big hand again for Misha here and from the translation team if you want to say hi or