 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I have the pleasure today of being joined by Jim Moritz of Chicago Drum. Jim, how are you doing? I'm doing well, Bart. Thanks for having me on. Awesome. It is a pleasure to talk to you. So today we are talking about Slingerland Drums, something that you hold very close to your heart. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your connection to Slingerland? Well, my connection is I kind of have a family history of people working at the Chicago and Niles plants. I had two great uncles work there back in the day. One, I believe the story I heard was on the guitar banjo end. And then another one was in the wood shop, was actually in charge of the wood shop for Slingerland. And my dad actually was in charge of the wood shop after my great uncle in the Niles plant. Now, also, I was there in my high school years, early to mid-70s was a night shift when there was a big spit out of drums. They had a couple of shifts going, and summer vacations were kind of spent at the Slingerland plant. So kind of Slingerland in the blood, I guess. Yeah, you were born and raised with Slingerland. So how far does that date back with your family working there? You know, I'm not exactly sure of the guitar end, great uncle. I believe it was 30s, 40s. You know, the drums were there, I believe in the 20s. I can't remember the dates offhand now when they started doing the actual drums. But I believe he was around as well with the drums, too. Why don't you and your, you know, you don't have to be too specific, but why don't you run us through what you know about the history of Slingerland starting as far back as you can as you can go? You know, as far back as I can remember, you know, it was, excuse me, the banjos and guitars. And I believe they were like the first company to have an electric guitar out, too, back in the day. But, you know, with the Ludwig boys, let's say, they started their company, you know, with drums and Slingerland wanted to get into that, too. You know, there was a little downfall with the advent of the talking movies. So there was less, you know, drummers going to get, you know, the traps and all the accessories for that type of thing. And Slingerland kind of just kind of snuck in there and they never stopped going for a while. You know, they made their impression in the footprint of drummaking and they kept it going pretty good. I think I read in Rob's book in the Slingerland book that it said that it was kind of in retaliation where Ludwig was saying, well, we're going to get into banjo making to get. I'm kind of getting this mixed up, but I think it was to get military contracts for making banjos, whereas Slingerland was going after that bid, that contract. And they said, well, hey, guess what, now we're going to make drums because you're you're kind of messing with our area. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was never, never any any really love between the two companies. They were always kind of kind of going at it with things, you know, it was just a lot of different things going, you know, and in the 60s, it was we're getting ahead of ourselves here. But there was a big controversy with the the drumhead making, you know, so it was just always kind of going back and forth. There was a very competitive between the two of them, even, you know, when my dad we funny story is we went to the plant in Niles last year after the drum show and we weren't allowed in it. But I had a couple of friends from out of town and we grabbed my dad and we just walked around the plant and the outside and he was telling stories about, you know, putting putting these big posts by a parking lot so they could put chains across to keep the Ludwig guys out. Oh, my God. There's there's also stories of Bill the third when he was younger. Be be number two wanted to go over to the Slingerland plant and kind of fish through the dumpsters to see what Slingerland was up to. I don't know any vice versa stories, but I'm sure there's, you know, Slingerland going to Ludwig as well. So there there was this, you know, competitive edge between both companies. Yeah, I mean, I guess so did you I know Ludwig and Slingerland have this history of going at it? Were in the big four were Rogers and Gretch? Was their competition with this as well? I know Rogers was very, very progressive in their hardware and all that stuff. Was there as much animosity between those companies? Or is it it's historically Ludwig and Slingerland at each other's throat? Right. And I'm not sure of, you know, Ludwig and Gretch, but they were out more East, whereas, you know, I mean, they might have been having that together, you know, out that way. But being so, you know, both Ludwig and Slingerland were in the Chicago area. I mean, they were competitive with getting calf skins back in the city, back in the day. You know, everybody wanted to get the finest the best. And they were they were both out there ready to, you know, pick and choose what they could get, you know. Was we're kind of jumping around here. But was Slingerland making their own calf skin heads at this point? I know a lot of times in this era, people, you kind of had to make all your own stuff. You didn't really have the resources we have today. So were there were they creating their own calf skin heads? Yeah, I believe so. I mean, I can still remember the, you know, they had calf skins stacked in the plant when I was there a little bit too. You know, so yeah, they were making, you know, they were capped on calf calf skins and they were tucked calf skins. So yeah, they were they were doing their own stuff. Wow. Well, that's cool. So, Jim, why don't we run through a little bit of the family history of the Slingerlands and we can touch on a little bit about how they, how they, how HH got started really early on in music. But yeah, let's just kind of go through the family tree a little bit. OK, well, you know, the action, you know, the HH, he was the one who's kind of started it all, you know, that he was in with his brother, I believe. Arthur James, I think it was. Well, I think that's right. You know, and they kind of got together and now we're working together. Being HH was, you know, more of the. The guy in charge and AJ being sales and that type of deal. And then so moving forward, the company then went into the hands of Henry, Junior, correct, also known or referred to as BUD with two D's. Yeah, and I don't know actually the timeline. I believe HH got ill as well as BUD did later on. But yeah, BUD came in, he had to been in the fifties, early fifties, I believe, when he actually started running the company. So it seems like BUD or Henry Junior would be in charge of the company during the really the heyday of Slingerland. Is that correct? Kind of the jazz explosion into the sixties, seventies rock era stuff. Well, I mean, you know, you got to back up a little bit with the heyday because and I don't know timeline again, I'm not sure of when, but Gene Krupa, you know, was signed on with Slingerland. And I guess you can compare it to Ludwig in the sixties with the Ringo. I mean, Krupa was, you know, he kind of invented that drum set and made it a popular instrument. I mean, Gene Krupa appears to be like, I know in the book I read where it's talking about, hey, like, hey, I need to not have these tack heads. Let's do, let me actually be able to tune these. Can you do that? The tunable drum head, tunable palm. Yeah. So then they did that for him. And it there was, I think I saw in the book where it said he was on most every drum catalog for Slingerland, like the cover of every catalog, except later in the sixties. Up until like, I don't know, 67, maybe his last appearance, something like that. Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, he was, yeah. And, and, you know, he did he did great for Slingerland sales. You know, like I said, it was it was kind of like the, you know, the the Ludwig version of the the Ringo when after the Yetzel then show type deal. Yeah. You know, he he did a lot for for drummers and drumming, you know, so there's a lot to be said for for Mr. Krupa. Absolutely. And that that's a big influence on people. And that leads to people buying more drums because they want to be like their their hero. Now, did he have any? Yeah. Did he have any weird? I know with Buddy Rich, he's jumping around with different snare drums and he's getting in trouble for using the Fibes snare when he's supposed to be using, believe it was the Ludwig, super sensitive, I think, or something like that. Gene seems like he didn't have quite as many like hang ups on switching drums and being a little shady about that. Was he was he pretty loyal? Oh, yeah, very loyal. And in fact, he he didn't even want new stuff. He liked the old stuff and they wanted to get the newer stuff in his hands, you know, so they had to they had to get that into his hands and get it out there so people could see the newer stuff as well as, you know, the old stuff. So now post post jazz explosion with Gene Krupa and we get into the fifties and the sixties, how is the company doing then? Is our sales through the roof? Is is everything going great at this point? Yeah, they actually were doing very well. You know, they they kind of outgrew the the old plant in Chicago and Bud decided to go ahead and build a new plant and he did. And the groundbreaking was, I believe, 1960. I actually was there at the groundbreaking. There was a it was basically a farm with a big farmhouse and everything. And they had a company picnic they held. And Krupa was there with his quartet. Don't remember that, but I do remember, you know, the fireman, you know, and I was, you know, all of, you know, three, four years old, I believe, at that point. But later later in my high school years, I find out I took a took drum lessons from Slingerland endorser and he lived right around the area locally here, Jake Jurger, and was talking to him one day and he's like, yeah, I was there too. You know, so I actually it was there when my drum teacher was there, too. It was kind of cool to find out. But yeah, the plant was opened, I believe, in 60. You know, I can back up a little bit. You know, my dad, my dad joined Slingerland about 1955. And he was always working in the wood shop. He was one of the first he was the first guy to use the RF machines. When those when that one came in, RF machine is radio radio frequency is real, you know, high voltage machine that they use to form the shelves. You know, prior to that, they would have to make the shelves. They would have to make a press, they called it, where they had a big a big table and they they grew up the layers of, you know, the three plies and they do, you know, one layer and then put like wax paper over it to another layer. And then they have these big acne screws with these big wheels that they'd screw down to tighten up and put pressure on them and glue them off flat. And then they would actually roll the shells to shape them. So all the plies were made already, like a thin piece of plywood, and they would roll them back in the day. You would see they would actually put the finish on them and the finish would be inside that that that scarf lap joint where it overlaps. I've seen that. It's amazing to see an outer like an upper and you see the the wrap actually become a part of the of the shell. I'm sure I'm sure rewrapping that is a nightmare. Yeah. Yeah, it's not too bad, but it's done. So so the RF machine, you know, my dad, that was he was put on that. And that's what he ran for quite a while. And, you know, nobody it was it was all totally new. He had to figure out how to glue it properly, you know, all the adjustments on it and everything else. It's it was quite a wild machine, you know, and that was brought over into the Niles plant, you know, they brought two more of those. So they had a total of three of them. And they use those until they close up, you know. But yeah, you know, they they actually they actually had to bring extension cords. The story goes when they moved into the Niles plant, because all the electrical wasn't done yet, but but wanted to get things up and going. So he told employees to bring extension cords and everything else. Wow, man, you just got to start making drums. I mean, this is 1960, where I don't know the exact year that Ringo, the Beatles were on the Ed Sullivan show. But I know that's just after that, it was just the explosion of people buying drums. Yeah, that was that was about 64. Yeah, yeah. So big upswing after that. Is that the way it went? Well, you know, Ludwig was was really big upswing on it. And I'll slinger Lynn, you know, I mean, being being out of Ludwig, drums are out there. So everybody wanted, you know, that finish, that brand, you know, and, you know, then the rock era came in. Slinger Lynn was always pretty much, you know, jazz oriented, you know, I mean, you look at all their endorsers and stuff at the time, but they did get quite a few, you know, rock endorsers, you know, coming, coming in. And, you know, there was quite a roster for both companies. But yeah, it's, you know, there was all sorts of people coming in and out of there, you know, back in the day. What about stenciled drums and copying the slinger Lynn model? Does that did that cause a problem for the company or did they really even care? Well, you know, I know way back when slinger Lynn did let a lot of the Japanese people in there and they came in and they were taking pictures of the plant and everything else. I mean, I know my dad, you know, hid certain, you know, blue formula bottles and everything else that was laying around and covered things up when he could. But, you know, that kind of all led to the demise, too, because, you know, they were they were nice enough to let them in there and tour the plant. But it kind of, it kind of did them on the backside because after that, the foreign markets started coming in, too, you know. So they took a chunk of the pie out of the American companies. Do you know what his I mean? Because it's funny, we talked about how they in the previous episode about how I was asking, would they pursue legal ramifications? Not knowing that they were inviting them in. Do you know what the what the goal was to bring the the Japanese like builders or I guess it would be the people investing in the drums into the Slingerland plant? What were they trying to achieve with that? Yeah, you know, I'm I'm not really sure. It's good will, maybe good will. Maybe maybe they were hoping to get some of their product more more overseas. I don't know. But yeah, the Japanese just kind of kind of came in strong after a while. And wow, you know, that kind of kind of didn't didn't do too good for the the American companies. Well, that's I mean, amazing because the the history of the stencil kits is is pretty, you know, word of mouth and slightly just kind of like stories thrown together. So I'm pretty pretty confident that you just added a new element to the the history of of the stencil drum world because knowing that they that Slingerland invited them into the factory is is extremely interesting. We'll have to I'll have to tell Mark patch that the guy is right in the book and maybe maybe you'll be in the second or the third edition, I think, of his book. All right. So the 60s and 70s are going really strong for Slingerland. A lot of endorsers, both jazz and rock, they are competing with the stencil drums, which as we found out, they kind of helped launch, which is amazing to me. But then we get into the 1980s, I think, as far as I can tell, this is when things start to get a little bit funky for Slingerland. Well, I mean, after after Bud sold, and I believe he sold, like I'm guessing like early 70s, I can't even remember anymore. Um, uh, multiple companies bought and sold Slingerland. And they just basically used Slingerland, never put any money into any equipment. You know, all the stuff was old, old, old. And, you know, they, you know, the guys work in there, did their best to put out a great product. But there was still fighting with all the old equipment. Nothing, nothing was brought in new. So that was, that was part of the demise. I mean, you know, you can only do so much when you have all these antiquated machineries around. And that that was, you know, it just started going downhill after I think after, well, you know, there was still kind of a heyday in the 70s, but you know, the later 70s, um, that's when the downhill started, you know, going, um, you know, again, multiple, multiple companies buying and selling. It's just, uh, you know, it wasn't the same as the family owned Slingerland. Yeah. I think most famously there's those going between different companies back and forth. And, um, it's currently owned by Gibson, which I'm pretty sure is the most famous, uh, you know, when people think of Slingerland and saying, what went wrong? They'd say, well, Gibson owns it and they didn't do anything. And I know that I read that part of it was because if people, if small shops wanted to, um, carry Slingerland, then they also had to carry Gibson guitars, which I think for most people who've ever been to a music store and seen the price of Gibson guitars, um, that's just not feasible for these small shops, which even today on April 16th, 2018, when we're recording this, Gibson is in trouble on their guitar and like people can't afford to buy this stuff at this in the current, uh, economic climate. So, um, I know it, uh, Gibson kind of gets the blame, I think, a little bit for what went wrong with, uh, you know, putting the nail in Slingerland's coffin. Well, there was, you know, there was the last owner, um, in the Chicago area, uh, when, when he bought Slingerland, I mean, it was, it was like, he incurred a lot of debt when he bought it. He actually, uh, moved out of the Niles plant, downsized tremendously, uh, moved out to a plant in Algonquin, Illinois. Um, and, uh, you know, I had a skeleton crew out there. Um, and it's, it's just never really took off. I mean, they basically set up shop there and the bank closed them down. Um, you know, my dad tells me a story of, you know, they were waiting for a load of the near and, uh, the owner was at the bank with the checkbook. And my dad already said, uh, something's wrong. And, uh, when the guy came back, uh, that was, that was pretty much it, you know, it was just shut down. Um, yeah. So, you know, my, my dad kind of just put his keys on the table and walked away and all is like, that's it. I'm out of here, you know, um, uh, you know, I still am in contact with some, some old guys from the plant that I, I know Matt, some of them are a little bit older than me. I'm not saying they're ancient, but they don't make dads, probably the, the ancient one out of everybody. But, um, you know, I still am in contact with, with some of these guys and, uh, actually some of them are helping us out now. So, um, that's kind of cool. That's a great transition to talk about what you're doing right now, um, with Chicago drum and carrying on the tradition of, um, Slingerland. So now on to you, how, how did, how did this all happen for you where, where you're doing what you're doing? Well, um, we started doing more restoration work, you know, um, bearing edges, rewrapping and that type of deal. And, uh, uh, one of, one of my, uh, associates, um, I hadn't met him before, but he had worked, uh, with my dad and knew my dad. And, and, uh, a couple of years before we started doing the restoration work, I, I hadn't met him. And, uh, so we were talking and he's like, well, what if you've made a snare drum, you know, and did this and this, you know, and I said, yeah, I could do that. So we, we actually built a drum and, uh, he was, he's actually got a band and plays out locally and, uh, you know, he, he had the snare drum at first cause that's all we had for him. And, uh, it was, it was very cool here in the sounds of that drum that we made coming out of that hall that he was playing in. And, uh, we kind of took off from there. We made him a set, you know, and he's still playing our stuff and, um, you know, we're, we're just doing the, uh, the same type of, of builds that, you know, we, we learned at Slingerland. We're using the same type of a wood shell makeup. Um, we're just taking it up, uh, you know, a few notches and, uh, you know, taking care of all the little problems that, uh, you know, a mass production, uh, shop has where, where more of a smaller boutique at this point. And, uh, we spend a lot of time, you know, getting everything just right. And, uh, the sound of them is fantastic. Um, everybody loves the sound of our drums. So, uh, we got to be doing something right. Yeah, absolutely. So you are, uh, so you're building them from the ground up or you, you're building, you're creating the shells then, is that right? Yeah, there are shells. And, uh, you know, we do, uh, the solid maple reinforcement rings just like the old school and the same type of edges. We're doing, you know, a 30 roundover adjoin them. Um, you know, very, very precise bearing edges, uh, glass smooth bearing edges and not like the, uh, the old, uh, you know, slinger lens where you could feel ridges all over them. Yep. You know, that's where your sound comes from. So we take a lot of time, you know, in sanding and making sure everything's just right on these things. Well, they are, um, absolutely beautiful drums. Um, I have, uh, not had the pleasure of playing them yet, but I've seen them. And, uh, just unbelievable. And like you said, it's just more modern. It's, you know, what, 50 years later, of course, it's going to be just more, more polished and more and more finished. And I'm assuming you're not using the old, uh, radio frequency machine, right? No, no, no, no, this is, uh, totally different now. It's just more modern up to date equipment. Um, so we're getting a pretty, pretty perfect shell out of them. So, uh, we're very happy with our products. Well, that's great. I mean, you should be proud to, uh, I mean, you are the guy who is carrying on, like for, for lack of a better term, you are the new Slingerlin drums, because Gibson's obviously not doing anything with it. I mean, you're the guy. Yeah, well, they're, they're sitting on the name and, uh, don't know what's happening with that, but, uh, you know, we've been, we've been forging ahead, uh, with Chicago drum. And, you know, some people say, you know, out of the ashes come Chicago drum. Well, 12 point that is. Yeah. Um, but, uh, yeah, we're, we're, we're doing a lot of, lot of things, uh, similar, but different, um, you know, we're, we're making the old anister thrones. Um, you know, just, uh, doing a whole bunch of, uh, different stuff. Um, just trying to work with the customers and, and give them, you know, what they want, size-wise and, and finish-wise. And, um, just giving them, uh, a drum that's gonna last for decades, like the old Slingerlin. So these are custom, uh, so if I call you and say I want a drum set, I'm not getting one that's just pulled off the shelf. These are typically made to order, or do you have kind of a, a surplus? Cool. Okay. Yeah. No, they're made to order. Awesome. Well, we don't really have a catalog set. You know, we, we do stuff like, like the old catalog, you know, outfits, but, um, you know, it's whatever, you know, somebody would want, uh, they would get in contact with us and, uh, we can make it for them. Cool. Well, I, uh, encourage people to get in touch with you if they're in need of a, uh, beautiful custom kit that has that, that vintage feel, but, uh, is not gonna let you down in any way with, uh, with problems with hardware that can't hold up or anything like that. Yeah, and you say vintage feel and there is actually a vintage feel on these, the, the rebound of the stick on the heads, uh, there is a vintage feel to these drums. Um, you know, we've, we've got the sound, we've got the feel, we've got the look of, of vintage. I mean, uh, our stuff is basically if you would have bought a set way back in the forties and fifties type deal, um, sixties, uh, we, we nailed the feel and the, and the sound. Um, any, any type of music you throw at these things, they can handle it whether it be blues, rock, jazz, uh, you name it, uh, these can handle it. So Jim, uh, this has been awesome. Uh, I would love to give you the opportunity to, uh, let people know where they can find more info about Chicago drum. Well, you can, uh, you can always throw us a, uh, email at info at chicagodrum.com. Um, you can go on our website at Chicago drum, uh, just Google Chicago drum and we'll come up. We're not Chicago drum exchange. That's a store in Chicago. Uh, they carry all the drum stuff, but, uh, we are Chicago drum. So please, yeah, check us out. Um, we have a lot of soundbites on there, uh, different looks that you can see, uh, we can browse through our website, you know, we do restorations as well, um, repair work, uh, that's a big part of the business too right now. So, um, you know, we do all sorts of things. So if you have any problems with your drums, take them us. And you're typically found at most of the, the drum shows around America, right? Well, we're starting to get out there more. I've been, I've been traveling out east. We went to the, uh, the Delaware show when was that in March. Um, I'm heading out on the road again this weekend is the, uh, Connecticut show. Um, so that'll be, uh, Sunday. So if anybody's in the Connecticut area, um, and, uh, later on, uh, well, next month, I'm trying to think of a month here in May, um, is the, the big granddaddy of all vintage shows in America is the Chicago drum shell, um, big, biggest one in the, uh, in the states, uh, anybody, uh, curious, drum geeks, uh, you know, whatever. But, uh, if you're in the area, that's a very good show to see if you're curious, all sorts of things there, new, old, um, accessories, clinics, uh, there's a whole ton of stuff to do there. Awesome, Jim. Well, I really appreciate you being here. Um, again, folks, this is, uh, Jim Moritz from Chicago drum, taking the time to talk to us about, uh, slingerland drums today. Thank you so much, Jim. Well, thanks, Bart. Thanks for having me. And, uh, hopefully we'll see you at the Chicago show. Absolutely man. Thank you. All right. Have a good day. If you like this podcast, find me on social media at drum history and please share, rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future. Until next time, keep on learning. This is a Gwynn Sound podcast.