 Take your seats, get comfy. I am so happy to introduce the McIntyre family to you today. Many of you were at the 2022 conference where we had Michelle Singletary McIntyre with us and that was the one that we did in the Chicago area. And we knew she would be great but I don't think I had not expected how great she would be. I was literally doubled over laughing at certain points in time. I was crying, real tears at other points in time. And when we knew we were doing this conference in the DC area, I reached out to Michelle and said, hey, would you be interested in joining us again? And she said, well, yeah, I'd love to do it. And she said, I'd love to bring my family and we can talk about our financial affairs a little bit and talk about how we've found harmony around financial matters because those of us who are married and have families know that it's a process. So that's what they're gonna talk about today. Michelle is here in the stripe jacket and many of you know Michelle Singletary but I'll introduce her just in case. She's the longtime Washington Post financial columnist. She's nationally syndicated. We ran into someone yesterday who said that she is his go-to resource wherever he lives, I think somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. So she's everywhere. She's the author of numerous valuable books and she's also won some of the biggest awards in journalism for her work at the Post. So in 2021, she won the Gerald Loeb Award for commentary and then in 2022, she won what is widely considered the biggest award you can win as a journalist, the Gerald Loeb Lifetime Achievement Award. So we are really thrilled to have Michelle here. Her husband, Kevin, is here and we know Kevin less well but we're very happy that he has volunteered his time to be with us. Kevin, I'm hoping you can share a little bit about your personal story. It sounds like you've recently retired. So maybe you can talk about that and then we'll hear from daughter Monique who is 28 and daughter Jillian who's 23. But let's start with you, Kevin. Okay, great. Good afternoon everyone, good evening. I'm Kevin McIntyre. Let's see, I'm 62 years old. I am a former federal employee. I've recently retired at the end of June of this year after 30 plus years in the Commerce Department and the Treasury Department, which is unusual because my degree is in that mechanical engineering. So how I ended up there is a long story. And so like I said, I've just recently retired and a lot of, if you've been reading Michelle's columns there's a little bit in there about me and that journey and the stage that we're in right now in terms of making decisions to set ourselves up for the future. So we'll probably get into that a little bit. Sounds good. So Olivia, maybe you can go next. Hi, I'm Olivia, like she said, I'm 28. So right now I'm working at a group practice in College Park, Maryland as a mental health therapist. I graduated undergrad in 2013 and then I went and got my, or no, sorry, in 2017 and then I got my master's in 2019. And then I spent a year in Texas working and living with foster children. And then I came back and started at the practice that I'm at. And then I just, this past August, passed my license exam and had my independent license. So I'm very excited about that. Thank you. So now I'm kind of looking into what I wanna do next with that license. So. Hello, hi mom. I was in in 2022 as a last year with a degree in early childhood and special education. I'm currently my second year in teaching in regard and then over the summer I taught special needs three-year-olds. So, Kevin, I'm gonna put you on the spot, but one of the things we were laughing so hard about last year was Michelle's thriftiness, which she described to us in great detail and made us all laugh. So would you say you're on the same page with her with respect to thrift? Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Oh, starting off with the tough ones. So we are of a similar mind. She is probably more conservative than I am, but I am also thrifty. I mean, I think we both came from humble beginnings. And so we both have a similar mindset about money. We're both, we both live rather modestly or believe that that's how we should live. And so we live below our means. We both are good savers and investors. And so, and in terms of, you know, the kids, I think we do agree in terms of, you know, what we, how we would like to talk with them about their financial futures and that sort of thing, what we explained to them about our situation. So yeah, I'd say we're pretty much in sync, not in a lockstep, but in sync. Ha ha ha ha. Can you discuss, have there been any areas in recent memory where you, there was a little bit of a disconnect where one of you wanted to go one way and the other wanted to go the other, another way? From a financial standpoint? Yeah. Okay. Ha ha ha ha. How much time have we got? I don't know. Ha ha ha ha. Well, the thing that comes to mind most immediately is my retirement. So I actually retired in June and it was a little bit sooner than I was planning to. I was planning to retire probably at the end of the year, but there was a difficult situation. I was in at work and it was to the point where I had to do something, give you a change or a retire. And I didn't really want to at this stage of my career start over into something else. And so we talked about retirement. So we went back and forth about, can you hang on to the end of the year? Or, you know, and so it was a good conversation to have leading up to my retirement and we've even continued going forward because it brought to the surface a lot of things that we have to think about for our long-term future in retirement. So like one of the decisions that we made along the way was that we paid off our mortgage because we agreed early on that we were not gonna retire with a mortgage. And there's been some discussion around that. We had a good discussion at the other night at dinner, last night at dinner about it. But that was a decision that we made personally. But even as we agreed on that, there were other things that we didn't agree on in terms of, you know, can I afford to leave yet? Should I hang on to the end of the year? Even after we paid off the mortgage, should I hang on and then take the mortgage payments and put that into a savings account? So we have a little bit of cushion by the time I retire. And obviously we retired sooner than that. So yeah, that was probably the most recent thing where we had a little bit of intense discussion. So I wanted to ask about that. And Michelle and I talked about this separately, this idea of when you retire, if you've been a saver your whole life, you know, your whole career, transitioning into spending mode or having to tap that portfolio, it feels bad. So Michelle, maybe you can talk about kind of making peace with that, which we all must do eventually. We're gonna have to, that was the point, right? That we saved to retire at some point. So talk about that. In theory, yeah, in theory. I love the last panel was Mike said, get therapy, yes, I'm getting therapy. Kevin was actually kind because, you know, for those of you here last year, I talked about how I grew up. And so I grew up with my grandmother, who was very frugal. And I've always had this fear that I'm not gonna have enough. And so I actually did write a column about my husband's retiring. I'm scared we're gonna run out of money and we're not gonna run out of money. But it's so hard when you spend your entire life, your entire existence, saving, saving, saving, denying, denying, denying, they can tell you some things. And then all of a sudden people are like, well, you can spend. And that's actually where we had the most intense fellowship because he wants to spend the money. And I said, I don't want to stand. And so he wants to buy something. And I'm like, well, no. And he'll put something in the Amazon box and I'll take it out of the Amazon box. And so he says, well, honey, we spent all this time saving this, let's enjoy it. Cause we don't want to leave it to, cause he said, if we are gonna enjoy it, they're gonna enjoy it. And so I can't get there and I'm not gonna lie. I'm not there yet. And the only way he is allowed to put stuff back into the Amazon box is he'll say, this is, we have phrases that we say in our marriage should help us not fuss and cuss. And so he'll say, well, let's go to the net worth statement. I hate that. Because a personal net worth statement, you know, all the assets and all the liabilities and at the bottom half it's 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0. And then the net worth, which is, and so he'll say, look at that. And I just get mad because then I have to put, let him put something back in the Amazon box. But it's very difficult. And I think Mike was right. I think those of us who are the, the aunt and that example of the aunt in the grasshopper, we do have to come to the point where it's okay to spend some of it and live a life that you've spent your whole life trying to do. And what I loved about this conference this whole weekend is strategies to do that to make yourself more comfortable. And I have to say that you really have relieved me. You've helped me this weekend. I'm not saying he could buy everything in the Amazon box, but a couple of more things because we have a good plan. So Michelle, like in addition to, you know getting therapy or something, what strategies will you use to help you over this hurdle when you eventually retire and your income stops altogether? Ooh, see that right there? Just, my heart started palpitating. So I think the whole weekend was like plan, plan, plan. And so we started retirement planning like 20 years ago and I'm not exaggerating. So one of the big things was to pay the house off. And I wrote a column about that and oh my gosh, people lost their everlasting mind because we used some funds, we did a mortgage recast, we made extra mortgage payments for the entire time we had a mortgage, we had, now some of you will probably cringe, we had like a 2.75% mortgage and people are like, how could you give that cheap money? And I was like, mind your business. So that was one thing to pay off the mortgage. I like pots. I'm a pot person, not that kind of pot, pots, plural. So we have a travel fund, we have had, we set them up, we saved enough that none of them have education debt. They actually even have money to go to grad school. So we made sure that was okay. We have a cash fund. So we have set things to the point where we know how to pull stuff out. And so now the next thing is to do some more tax management, things like that. So we made sure we keep our expenses in check and we just made sure that the groundwork was there to allow us to spend. Now I just gotta get the mental thing together. And I'm not, I'm just not gonna lie, I'm just not there yet. He is. So I don't know. So Olivia and Jillian, I wanna bring you into this. Michelle said that, you know, when you're growing up, there was a lot of like, no, we are saving for, I want you to graduate college debt free. Can you talk about sort of that, like you wanted this and your mom and dad were sort of telling you that you needed to delay that gratification into the future? Yeah, there's lots of stories. I actually, I don't know what age I was, but for Christmas or your birthday or something, we made like a booklet of all the like sayings that she would say to us, like over and over again. Like, is it a need or a want? Do you have McDonald's money? Like it's a lot of, you know, college fund, college fund. Like do you can't have that because we're paying for your college fund. Like it was like a lot of stuff whenever we would ask for things or just lots of money conversations. It was, it was pretty intense, I'm not gonna lie. It was pretty intense. It was quite a lot of like money conversations and a lot of like she was saying like a lot of denying, you know, like we would get things after it was like not cool to have them anymore. And they were like on sale or nobody cared about having that thing anymore. Then we got it and it was like, well, thank you. And also like this is maybe three years behind like what everyone else is doing. So then we just kind of learned to stop like paying attention or caring, you know, about what people were having. So we were like, well, we're just not gonna get it. So you kind of have to like self soothe and say that it's fine. You know, we'll focus on other things, I guess. Yeah, I think that I remember a lot of the rules the most. Like my first memory asked for like somebody a lab or a kidney bed. She got the one that had like a saving, a spending and investing and a charity, little slots in them. So of course I thought all of the ones would save anything like that. What does anyone has to invest? I don't know. But you know, then I was like, if you went to a grocery store and I picked something up and I didn't know the price of it, well, what it was, I automatically had to put it back. So when you started to have to remember the price and be like, let me get this, this is 3.25, I promise I'll put it down. And then sort of like back to the stuff again. What was sort of the light bulb moment for you? Like, oh, here's why we're doing this. Like when did you feel like you really got the method to the madness? Ooh, it was late, I would say. I would probably say after graduating college or maybe sometime in college and hearing people talk about kind of the loans and being stressed out about, you know, repayments and being able to graduate and not have to worry about that. It really started to click for me and I could make different decisions than my friends were making. And I was like, oh, okay, this has a really big impact. And especially when I went and got my masters and that was also debt-free. Like that was like a huge game changer because I was talking to people in my program who had undergrad debt and then also had master's debt. And I went into social work, which depending on what you do is not like a super high paying career. And so a lot of the people in the program were talking about that and, you know, kind of the stress of that and saying like, I have this passion to serve and I have to go to school and, you know, get all of this debt and then my earning potential when I graduate, it's a really stressful circumstance for them. And I just felt so grateful that I didn't have to worry about that. And I think that's when it really started to click, like, okay, maybe, you know, like all of the silent resentment, you know, not having the things like it actually really mattered. And like all of that stuff is kind of irrelevant now because I'm in a position to have so much more flexibility and freedom than a lot of my peers. Yeah, obviously mine was, my experience was similar. Like, I think maybe after my first year in college, just talking to my peers and like realizing like how much like they actually had to take out already just in the first year. And that was actually when I was starting to be like, oh, but on the master's degrees, I started applying to scholarships. And then I got full ride when I last few years in school and I was like, okay, now I can have my master's definitely. So it really just really like, I was just thinking much more ahead to cancel the foundation that we had. Yeah, so Kevin and Michelle, I want to back up and talk about how it was such a, why it was such a priority for you to not have your kids emerge from college with a bunch of debt. Yeah, you know, I will have to say we're, I don't want to say, because we're without people. So y'all acquire too. So, but out there, the abnormal people, you know, they'll say things like, well, I'm not going to pay for them to go to college because they have to learn how to do it on their own or, you know, those kinds of things. But my husband and I, I have to say, from the beginning of our marriage, we're very intentional about a lot of things, paying off our mortgage, living below our means, and making sure our kids had the choices when they graduated from college. We didn't know obviously what they wanted to do for a living, but we wanted them to operate in their God-given gift. And that meant we did not push them into one career or another. You know, lots of parents, you got to be a doctor, got to be a lawyer, you got to be this, got to be that, you know, or your kid is in sports. You got to play all these sports because you got to get a scholarship, you got to get an NFL. And there's so much pressure on that. And so we wanted them, whatever it was that they wanted to do. And I think it's a blessing that that one is a teacher, that she was born to be a teacher. This one, she tries to tell me what to do. She is born to be a therapist. And with the mother she had, she needed to do that, right? And my son, our son is on the autism spectrum. And so we didn't of course know that when he was born, but because we were so frugal, we had the money to be able to help him as well. And so we wanted them to have the freedom to do what they wanted to do. So this one, they're all living with us, by choice. Well, okay, I did kind of force them. We forced them so that they could save money. But she now, she's gonna transition to another job. So she's gonna take too much to travel. She's gonna go to Australia, New Zealand. She wouldn't be able to do that if she had a lot of debt. This is the time that she can do this. And this one, her job is so stressful. Being a teacher is so stressful. It is one of the most amazing careers. And now she can do that. And not have all the stress of money. And we really wanted that for them. That was our gift to them. And so that's why we did that. We wanted them to be able to not have that. In order to do that, they had a, hey, it was not an easy childhood. Cause they, like she said, they didn't get a lot of stuff. And we put a lock on our door with a deadbolt. So they go smother us in our sleep. You know, you can imagine it was not easy living with us to say no all the time. Because we have a culture of yes. And we have a culture of raising entitled children. And a lot of people in our position, in your position, maybe not your adult children are not very good with money because they were given everything. And I think my husband, I could say, these kids are so good money managers. And they know how to save, but I'm so glad they're here at this conference because the next step is to get them to be, it's enthusiastic about investing as they are about saving. And so I'm thanking y'all, talk to them. It's why she that one on the end. Cause she still get this. She still hasn't signed up for her World 3B plan. So can y'all like, yes, right. Get her, get her. She's gonna do it, but we, you know, she's looking through the offers, but y'all still get her. But so that's why, you know, I mean, you know, we don't come from money, none of our families has a lot of money. And we wanted to, we wanted our wealth to be well worth something for them. And so, you know, like they will never have a car note. They don't know what it's like to have debt. This one is still driving the car that we gave her when she was 16 years old. She's 28. And she's gonna, her next car, she's saving up in a Vanguard non-retirement account to pay cash for it. That's amazing. So I just want to mention, Rick Ferry is walking around, looks like he's collecting questions for the McIntyre family, which we will take. But I just want to ask Olivia about your savings habits. Sounds like you're in really good shape, that you're a disciplined saver and probably doing that, not on a high salary. So let's talk about your tricks of the trade there. What are you doing? I mean, I'm just kind of doing what I was raised to do. It's actually, it's gotten to the point where now she's trying to convince me to spend money on things. Like if I want to go on a trip, like for, you know, my birthday. And I was like, oh, like maybe we'll go here. And they're like, no, like you can go and get the massage. And I'm like, but that massage is like a hundred dollars. Like, I don't know. So I think it's just a lot of the, you know, like a lot of the knows that I heard in childhood are now like my own voice. Like I'm walking around and I'm like, no, you don't really need that. Or like, it's fine. Like, you know, like don't go out to eat. Like there's stuff in the fridge that you can eat. And so I think it's just a lot of those little choices. And then also I've like figured out what it is that is like really important to me to spend on. And so I really do enjoy, like she mentioned, I enjoy traveling a lot. And so, you know, traveling is really expensive. And as I get older, I'm less inclined to like stay in sketchier places. And so I want to stay in nicer places now. And so I need to, you know, make sacrifices in other areas in order to spend on the things that are really important to me. And so a lot of those knows are just kind of ingrained in my head now. And so it's not like anything extravagant. I just kind of live on less, I guess, because that's how I was raised. What, what, how stressed out I am about it? Yes, it's very stressful. So I guess two, maybe two years ago, I was talking to my dad and I was like, okay, I have like a relatively large like lump sum of money that I have saved. And I was like, oh, like what kind of like savings account should I put it in? Cause I know some of them, like you get like a higher investment or whatever. And he was like, well, they're all going to be like really little, you know, like what you really should do is put it in like a Vanguard account that we have. And I was like, okay, so I mean, I, you know, to a certain extent, I trust their judgment. And so I was like, okay, like what are you doing? You know, like tell me what it is that you're, you know, you're doing. And so he was like, okay, this is what we're doing. And he was like, okay, these, these are the, you know, the funds that you can put the money in. And I was like, okay. And so I did it. And then shortly thereafter, I just started losing money. And I have been maybe like in the positive for like two weeks over like the two and a half years, I guess. And I hate it. Like it's really, I hate it a lot. And they keep, every time I go and I'm like, see, like, it's like, I'm losing money. Like if I had just put it in the savings account, like I would still have all of my money. And they're like, no, this is the best time, like put more money in. I'm like, this is a scam. They're scamming me. Like I feel like I'm getting robbed. Like they had me set up automatic payments. So like every month Vanguard like robs my bank account. And then they just like, it's, it's really stressful. And they're like, no, no, no, like put more in. I'm like, this is like a snake oil, like salesman pitch. Like when things are bad, that's the best time to put more money in. Like what kind of logic is that? It's so backwards. But because I trust them and like my mom was saying like my dad is like the, the calm one. Like he's a little more like even keeled. And so he's like, no, like it's going to be fine. Like just stop looking at it. Just stop looking at it. Like you can stop showing us, we know. And so because I trust them, I'm like, okay, I'm not going to move it. Like I'm going to leave it alone. And then being here and like listening to the talks and going to the dinner, I'm like, okay, well there's more people who are bought into this. And so I'm like, okay, maybe it's okay. Like maybe it's not just them. Like there's some other really smart people here who are also doing the same thing. So I'm like, all right, it should be fine. And then, you know, my dad like showed me kind of the graphs like over time, because one of the things I want to do is retire early. And so he was kind of putting it in the projections. And I was like, oh, that looks really nice. Like, you know, like, because there's like a calculator that you can do and like depending on how much you put in, you can retire at a certain time. And so after we did that graph, I was like, okay, let's put a lot in. Like, let's put as much as we possibly can in because I do want to retire early so I can travel a lot more. So even though it's like really painful for me emotionally, like they've been like really good support, emotional support systems of like just leave the money where it is. And so I'm hoping that they're right. And when I get older, I will be very happy. I'm not happy now, but I trust them that I will be happy later. And if I'm not, I'm coming for all of you. So that is where I am in my investment journey. So Jillian, how about you? It sounds like you are, have some reservations too and you can contribute to a 403B, but haven't done so yet. Is Olivia's attitude rubbing off on you or what's your hesitation? Yeah, I think that I was reflected on it this weekend in the past couple of months. I think part of it is my perspective of like my future goals and my perspective of time. Like if somebody asked me what are your long term goals, I would say, oh well, two years from now, five years from now, I don't know how many. And I think of that as long term because I'm thinking of that as a quarter of my life. So I had to shift my perspective from thinking of like five years from now as like a short or quick quarter of a term goal. I'm like my retirement has been a long term goal because there's things that I want to do now. And then I think kind of realizing what is important to me and what I'm going to want to be able to do. And it's mostly even lean, but I'm not here to do it. My wife and I are just going to travel in so much because they're tired, so I would like to be able to do that. So just watching my dad enjoy the fruits of all of it has kind of influenced me into like making the decision too with us. What are your, you have like shorter term financial goals as we all do. What are the things that you want to achieve? Well, before retirement. Yeah, so I would like to move out, love them, but I would like to move out, you know, and I would like to maybe not rent and just buy outright and then just be able to support myself like independently and like have my own growth would be like my short term goal right now. So Olivia mentioned that Kevin is really calm with respect to investments. Are you two on the same page, Michelle and Kevin with respect to taking investment risk or is one of you more nervous when the market is going down? We are on the same page in terms of long term investment and have been for a long time, but in terms of investment risk, I have a much higher risk tolerance than she does. And that's probably reflected in our portfolio. What she brings to the, I think we work well as a team, what she brings to the table in terms of our investing is the discipline, the starting early, the maxing out on the 401K, maxing out on the TSP, being consistent over time. And that's what she brought. What I brought was, hey, let's put the pedal to the metal and go. Let's find those equity investments that are really gonna do well for us, put it there and stop looking at it. Now, I'm okay putting it someplace and not looking at it. Maybe periodically six months a year, whatever, considering that it's long-term. And I'm thinking back now 20 years or so when we first started this. So she watches it much more frequently than I do. She watches it probably, I don't know what, monthly or? So. And yeah, let's go with that. Okay. And so she watches it and she sees it go up and down and up and down and it does take a toll. On her mental, on her peace. And I said, look, set it aside, don't worry about it. We don't need it right now. Look, it's down 5%. Particularly during 2008. Oh my goodness, that was a really, but I think one thing that we did, that I'm proud of that we did was we left it alone. We didn't move anything. I had friends in the federal government, we all TSP account, we would talk about what we're doing with our accounts. And many of them got out at the bottom and they never recovered those losses. And so I'm really glad that we stayed in, market recovered and then some. So I think, you know, but we, that was a very stressful time looking at those. We lost probably 30 or 35% of our portfolio value at that time. Yeah. Kevin, I wanted to ask, you mentioned TSP and I would imagine there are some federal government employees here with us. And a question is like, do TSP, I think we would agree as generous, through savings of plan is really a stellar plan in so many respects. Is it something that you think you will continue to hang on to through retirement or what's your plan there? Yeah. At this point, I don't have any plans to move the money out of TSP. I think that, you know, because TSP has some of the lowest fees, some of the lowest expenses associated with it. And there were some changes made recently that improve some of the flexibilities in terms of when you can take withdrawals and that sort of thing. So right now it suits our needs. We don't have a need right now to go in and start pulling any of it out because Michelle's still working. And I get a small federal pension. And at some point we're gonna start taking Social Security. That's been part of what's interesting about this weekend is there's been a fair amount of discussion about when is the right time to take Social Security. I'm inclined to take it sooner. Michelle's inclined to wait until 70 to take it. And so we're probably gonna compromise in there somewhere in the middle. But yeah, I think that's so far, I think as far as TSP is concerned, I'm gonna hang on to it. So we've been getting questions. Here's one for Michelle, which is, can you summarize the most important financial lessons you learned from Big Mama that you passed on to your daughters? Well, they could probably answer, but you wanna answer that? Say who Big Mama is for people who don't know. I went to go live with my grandmother when I was four. My older sister was eight. I had a sister who was three and twin brothers who were just under two years old. So we went to live with my grandmother. And my grandfather was in the home, but not in the home. He was an alcoholic. So a lot of times his money didn't make it home. And I don't know, I always tear up with this. But this woman with an alcoholic husband, five grandchildren, a job where she didn't make very much money as a nursing assistant, was able to save. And she paid off her house before she retired and she just was a massive money manager. And I think the one lesson that she taught me that has just been the root of our wealth is to save a percentage of every dollar that crosses your palm. And I remember, I don't know if I told you all this story last time, but when my first week at the Baltimore Evening Sun as a full-fledged reporter, I covered a major fire. I got on the front page as a big deal in our business. And I called my grandmother, who do you call first? And I said, Big Mama, oh my gosh, I want a front page. And I'm trying to tell her. And she said, did you go up to HR and make sure they took money out of your paycheck to put it to a savings account? No. And click up. I thought she dropped the phone. So I called her back and I said, oh, the phone dropped. And so I started to tell her again, I have front page byline. And she said, did you go up to HR and make sure you put money in a savings account? You know, you split the deposit. I said, nah, I haven't gotten to that. Click up. And so because I knew my grandmother would never listen to me, I left. That moment went up to HR, put money aside, went back, called her again. She asked the same question, did you? I said, I sure did. And then she said, tell me about your day. And that was the beginning of making sure that every time I got a money from, we took, I got a buyout from the evening sun, we took all of that money and put down paper for our house. Every time I get anything, we put money aside. We taught them to do that. In fact, they used to have an allowance. They never got the money because we would make a point. It's rude, right? I think, right? To say like, oh, you're getting whatever, like $6 or whatever it is, like at the certain interval. And then, oh, it was your age, okay, whatever. So I was like, you know, okay, you're getting it. And I'm like, okay, like, where is it? And they're like, oh, like, it's in this account. I'm like, how do I access the account? Like, oh, well, you know, we'll talk about it later. And like, I'm just like, um, this is technically my money, right? So like, I really actually never swore that money. And then I was like in college. And I was like, oh, I need something. And they're like, oh, you're like allowance account. You can, I was like, oh, now I can like have the allowance account for my school. I was like, okay, rude. No, yeah, same thing. I like never saw any of that money for sure. I think the biggest thing was just like realizing like the value of saving. And again, like using that money for things that really matter to you later on. Like I'm not, I don't miss like the McDonald's that I never got or like this really important like pink Barbie toy when I was a kid. But I do still remember like all the really nice vacations we used to take and like all the Christmas stuff. So the stuff that was really important, I never missed out on. So I just realized that like, you know, just save it until you have something that you really truly value that you want. Yeah. So I have a question for Olivia and Jillian that came in and you kind of just answered it. But maybe you have a different answer. What was the best or most relevant advice financial I would assume, or maybe anything that your parents have given you? She's looking at me like you go first. I mean, I guess what Jillian just said about figuring out what's really important to spend your money on. Cause I think for a while, like I didn't realize kind of like where we sat in terms of like middle class or like upper middle class but I kind of assumed that we were like, not poor. But I was like, oh, we just must not have money. Like I was like, we must not have a lot. And then people would be like, you just said that you went on a two week vacation. Like what are you talking about? Like your family must be well off. And I was like, do you see my shoes? Like can you see like the pants that I'm wearing? Like I don't understand. And then I guess the older I got, I started to realize like, oh, that was, we went on these like really nice vacations or we had like a, you know, a nice house even though we had a terrible car the purple van was like, it was really bad guys. It was actually really bad. But like we would have the nice things cause those were the things that were important to spend on. Like I said, I still have my car. Her name is Charlotte and I love her to death. And I will have Charlotte until she like sadly dies on me. And however long that is, it's however long I'll have her because I don't necessarily care about what kind of car I have. People laugh as they get in my car and it doesn't have a backup camera. And people like, what's going on? Like your car doesn't have a, like how do I, like how do I, you know, like back into the spot? Like you have to turn around. Like it's not, it's not that hard. But you know, I will have Charlotte, you know, for forever. But like Jillian said, I'm still living at home as well. And one of the reasons I made that choice is because I also want to move out and not have to rent. And so one of the things that the investment account that I have that is not doing so well right now is for, is so that I can put a down payment on a house. I don't have to move out and rent. And so I think that lesson was really important in terms of save the money and then spend it on the things that really matter to you. Jillian, how about you? Ditto. Yeah, same thing. Like the foundation of like being debt free and saving provide you to be able to like have more opportunities and do things you want is really important. It would be like the biggest lesson. So question for Kevin and Michelle. Were you comfortable sharing what you make with your children? If so, at what age? I'm telling it what we make? No. That's actually, it's a good question. So we did not share how much we made for them for a very long time. First of all, one that had been this and we didn't want them, I mean, in the beginning of our career, we weren't making that much. But you know, now we make some good duckets. And we did not want them to feel as if they could live a certain way because of what we earned. So we actually wanted to keep them in the dark about our wealth. And they don't, I mean, she will know soon the totality of it, because she's gonna run our state. Can I tell you all something really quick? I don't know, this is crazy. So she's gonna be ahead of us. We have a will, but now we're gonna update it now that she is 28. And so we sat down at the table and we have paid off her home and my desire was to have a house that someone could always live in and not have to pay rent, right? And so there's three of them. So I say, well, all three of y'all could live here, one of you. And so this one, go ahead and tell me what you see. Go ahead, go ahead. You wanna do something? So she says, I say, you're not gonna ever sell this house. You just gotta use it for the, and so she said, no, we're gonna sell. I said, you're not gonna sell my house. She said, no, we're gonna sell. And so they get along really well. The siblings are really close. And so she said, well, but mommy, we grew up in this house, it's too big for us. We really don't want it. If one of us had it for free, the other two of us might feel some kind of way about that. And wouldn't it be better to sell it and divide the proceeds so that we each, and because we live in this area, they really could almost buy a house with the value of our house now because we've been in it for a long time. And she just laid it out like that. Like, that's what we're gonna do. So, my house. Because especially in our community, as African-American, home ownership is just such a prize. And the idea that she wanted to sell this house, it took us so long to pay off. It just hurt my heart. But then I realized she was absolutely right. They can make a different way. That money can go a long way for them to be mortgage free long before we were mortgage free. And it took me a while to understand that that was okay to let the house go. So a lot of you all, and maybe not you, but others, they wanna keep this house that the kids don't want. And so we said, okay, finally it's okay. So then I said, well, okay, you're gonna, we both wanna be cremated. I said, well, you're gonna at least have my ashes, right? Like you're gonna, you know. She wants me to wear her ashes in a necklace, carrying you around like that. It's not, it's so bizarre. It's not, it's not happening. They don't want my house or my ash. Like. Just real quickly to add to that. So, you know, I won't repeat what Michelle said about how much we make, but how much we have is also a question. When do we reveal to our children how much we have, right? And we didn't talk to them about it very much as they were growing up, because again, for the same reasons, you know. And, but I think at this point now that they're adults, we were starting to do that. And so Olivia knows more probably than Jillian does at this point. Which is like 2%. They're making it sound like we have a lot of knowledge. We do not know very much. So like when I, when we have that will conversation, I'm like very excited. So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna get the real information on like what's going on. But I think it's important that we do that because I think back to my own situation with my dad and he, this is going back maybe 10 or 11 years. He lived with us just before he passed away. And during that time, we were doing some estate planning for him. And he was not willing at all to talk about how much he had and where his assets were and that sort of thing. So it made it rather difficult for us. So I resolved in my mind that our kids would know as we get closer to that time. So that it's less complicated and easier for them. So by his standard, I'm doing pretty well. That's not really the standard I know that we want to use for our kids. But we are now in the stage where I think we're more willing to talk about what we have, where it is, what our wishes are and that sort of thing. So I think it's a process. It's a process. A question came in for Olivia and Jillian. This is a fun one. When and how have you been able to convince your mother to spend money she didn't want to spend? Have we been able to do that? I don't. Certainly not, no. I don't know. I think actually, like I said earlier, I think it's more so that now she's trying to convince us to spend money on things like I remember. Well, I don't know. I don't know if you have seen her talk or whatever, but I wanted a North Face jacket. And she thinks it's very funny because she said, can I get you a jacket and face you North? And ha ha ha. Right, so I really, really wanted a North Face jacket. And so she's like, I'm not gonna get it for you. Like you have to save up for it for yourself. And I remember it was $180. And I saved up for it and we went into the Nordstrom and I like got the jacket and I put it on and I was like, yes. And I was like, okay, I have the jacket. And then we like got closer to the register. And I was like, do I really want this jacket? Like I don't know. And she was like, what do you mean? Like you saved for it? We drove all this way. Like you like it? It fits, like buy the jacket. And I was like, well, you know, like I have other jackets. Like it'll be fine. And so I was about to put it back. And she was like, no, like this is how money works. Like you saved, you worked for it. Like get the jacket. And so I did, I ultimately got the jacket and I wore it for a very long time. And then she gave it to Jillian, but it's fine. It's fine, I came home from college and I was like, where's my jacket? She's like, oh, Jillian has just a Towson. I'm like, that is my $180 jacket. But whatever. I don't necessarily know if I have any memories of like trying to get her to like spend something. And then she'd say no. And then she said, yes, because she's very determined when she makes up her mind to like say no, that there's not a lot of wiggle room on that. So it's probably the other way around. I think that's probably the answer to why they don't tell me how much they have. I think my sister gives up, but I think I'm still, you know, I still have hope that one day I'll ask for something and it'll be a yes, but maybe not. But I have very early memories of asking for stuff and the answer being no. And I would try to be very creative. I think she told the story last year about the rule with commercials where like we were never allowed to buy anything. Or she was never gonna get us anything that we saw on a commercial. And so I went to her and I really wanted something. And she was like, where did you see it? And I said, oh, you know, I saw it in a dream and you know, I wanted it really bad, you know. But I think that if I stop asking for things then maybe they'll tell me how much they have and then, you know, we can go from there. But no, I still have never been able to convince her to buy anything for us. I wanted to read, this is really true. So we, there is an appropriate time to tell them and the time is now. So we are gonna sit down and lay everything out to be comfortable because they're ready now. But a couple of years ago, I think you were in college who was sitting at the table, you know, talking about a state plan and this, I know, it's like crazy, right? This is where we talk at the table. And so we're saying, you know, well, your dad and I have some money, you know. And she was like, how much this one? How much? I said, well, I'm not gonna tell you. She said, is it a lot? Are you rich? I said, well, you know, some people will say that we, you know, do okay, we well off. She said, so, when I get the money. I said, well, you know, we're gonna spend it but we're gonna leave you some, you know, money when we die and she got this look. And she said, oh, will you die? And I said, okay, so I'm telling all of y'all now, if I, something happens to me mysteriously, you know, send the police that way. But we try to, you know, they really didn't know. They thought we were, like, we didn't want them to know how well off. And I think one of them did say, oh, you're rich. I said, no, she said, we are rich. That's what you said. We are rich. I said, no, you mistake it, we rich. So there's another question here that I think is a good one. What can I do to educate my college son about the realities of money without squashing his dream job, keeping him from pursuing his dream job of being a zoologist? So are they, do they not want them to be a zoologist? Well, maybe it's not the highest paying job. They want him to be aware of money, but still reach for that job that isn't the highest paying job. Well, you might want to ask them, but I wouldn't do that. I think you have to let people operate in the gifting that they were. I mean, in our culture, it's like stem, stem, stem and this, this, this, but you all have worked a lot, your whole life. I love what I do. I love being a journalist. I love writing. My husband loved being an engineer and then a manager and we want that for our children. Now, what we have taught them is how to live on a teacher's salary. What we have taught them is how to live as a therapist and maybe they might not make six-figure salaries, but trust me on that, they will retire with more money than people who make six-figure salaries. And so we never steered them. I don't think we ever steered them in a particular where she said she wanted to be a teacher. It was like, it was the proudest moment because I don't know about you all, but it was a teacher who changed my life and I would not want to rob another child of that. Because it was a teacher who I won a scholarship to the University of Maryland at College Park and when the scholarship came out because of my background, I didn't want to apply for it because I thought, first of all, how are you going to give it to me? I come from this broken home, my grandfather's an alcoholic. We ate, but we didn't have a lot. I had like a couple of outfits to wear to school. They're not going to give this to this little poor kid from West Baltimore. And I wouldn't apply for a scholarship. And she ran me down and hunted me down for weeks. And finally she just like took me by the shoulder. She said, listen, if you apply, you already have a no if you don't apply. Imagine if you apply and you get a yes. And so I applied for the scholarship, 10 finalists. I was one of 10, two from my school and the other person who won from my school was in a fashion at club. She came from a wealthy family and it's like, oh, she's going to get it for real. And I went down to the son for the interview and I just told him, you know, my life was like, and I won that scholarship. And I would have never won that if it hadn't been for that educator. So I don't think you discourage your kids. You just show them how to make money for where they are. And eventually if they're good money managers and they can't quite make it, they will figure out how to get a second job or maybe in their case, all three of our kids living at home. And everyone is like, oh, you just don't want to let them go and you just got to let them be out there. But my God, they can, she can save, you know, nearly $1,000 in a non-retirement account. And she's 15%. She saved, I think this past year, probably 80% of her salary. And if I could just get her to sign up for her four, one, three, two, three, four. Their brother is the same way. And so they, you know, it is, it was intentional for them to live at home. So instead of paying, and we don't have anything a problem with renting, but we know that they want to be homeowners. So that they stay home long enough and save 80% of their salary. When they walk into the door of their house, their house will be almost half paid off. What a legacy if they could be homeowners, true homeowners without a mortgage. By the time they hit their 40s or 50s, my God, that's life changing. And they won't have to worry so much about spending down their retirement account because they removed the most expensive thing on their budget. And so don't discourage your kids. Encourage them, show them. Say no, say no to your grandkids. It's not, I mean, it's a legacy. You know, this didn't happen by accident. I am so, we are so proud of these girls. It didn't happen by accident. And it wasn't easy. They are nuts and loving and look at them smiling, but trust me on this, they hate it. Or me, I should say, because their dad is like really like, no, baby. And I'm like, nope, I didn't hate you. That's really intense. There was a lot of like, what's going on over there? Like, why are there being, you know, so annoying about things? But we didn't like hate them because eventually we adjusted, right? Like kids are really adaptable. And so I think when they are living under a certain, you know, rule system or parent household or like money management system, like they, we adapted. And so it got to the point where then I started to look at other people funny when they were judging me for not having things. And so then, you know, my mindset shifted over time. And so like, yes, there were a lot of times where I was very angry or I didn't understand or it was really annoying to be told over and over again, is that a need or a want? Is that a need or a want? I'm like, I just want it. Like, why can't I like just, I just want it. Like, you know, like I'm not allowed to want things. But over time, you know, like we came around to it or I just stopped being something that we will maybe not for Jillian, but I just stopped asking. So I was like, well, after so many knows, it's like, okay, fine, I just won't have the thing. And that's fine. And so I think it's, you know, just about like the trusting that your kids will adapt to it and then they'll grow up and eventually, hopefully they'll come around to it. Well, Mac and Tyra family, we are so grateful for you to have come here. We knew you loved Michelle, but thank you all so much.