 If you wanted it, you'd go and get it. If you don't want it, it's cool. If you just want to go out and do enjoyment and all of that, that's fine. But just admit that. Just be honest with yourself and say, actually I'm just going to get paid, pay my bills and then spend whatever's left. The biggest thing I can teach my clients is to love themselves. Because once you love yourself, all of a sudden you understand that I don't need to buy these trainers or these clothes to make me any better. I'm already special. There's a perception in regards to, I know how I'm a nice person and so forth. But actually how much time do I spend working out what's important to my wife? Like when my therapist is like, well, what's your wife's dreams? What's your wife's goals? How will you help me start starting? I shouldn't be where I am. I should not be on national television telling the country about their finances. That shouldn't, Sky News, BBC, Channel 4, ITV, whatever. They shouldn't think, oh, there's a financial issue in this country. Let's go speak to the guy from a council state in Tower Hamlets and ask him to tell the country what they should be doing with their money or their finances. I shouldn't be here, but I'm here. I exist. Having meaningful relationships in the world of business can be extremely difficult, but that's the reason why this episode is so special to me. Because I get to bring on my mentor, my friend and my big brother, Emmanuel Isipo. He is a financial advisor, entrepreneur, international speaker, among many other titles. But if you ask him, what he will say is more important to him is his relationship with his family and his friends and the embed he has on his community. We talk about the things that actually make a real difference in your life and your journey of being a practical dreamer. I think you're going to find this really special. Emmanuel, my brother, thank you for being on the podcast today. Yes, big Claude, how are you, my brother? I'm doing well, you know, I'm doing well. Bless, busy, but making a little progress. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. It's good to be here, man. It's good to be here. Thanks for inviting me, you know. I guess there's not that many, I don't think there's that many people that actually have saved as my brother Claude, like yourself. So it's a joy to be here, man. Thank you. And I guess that already leads me on to what I want to speak about today. So obviously you're a low-key superstar. Being on TV, got your own podcast, your social media following, growing, like all the things you're doing is amazing. And I know you've already had a lot of exposure. People have spoken about your story and things of that nature, but today I wanted to have a conversation which I guess you can't find everywhere. Yeah. So although we might touch on elements of your story, what I did want to speak to you about today is something that I find really unique to you, which is how have you been able to maintain such a good heart in a world that has so many transactional relationships? Because I guess to give everyone a little bit of context, as you already mentioned, I do see you as my brother as well as my mentor. And you're one of the few people that I can say, I guess industry-wise, that is just so given, so generous. And I genuinely feel as if you're just willing to invest and show love to people and that's become more and more there. So I want to know, how did you get there to that stage? I think the giving back comes from what you went through, right? So I feel like I've been through a lot in life and I feel like I had to go through a lot of things on my own. I had to be the first. I always, when I do talks, I always talk to people and tell them, look, for a lot of us, you're gonna have to be the first. Like the first person in your family to do this, the first person of your race, the first person of your gender, a lot of the stuff, you might have to be the first. And I feel like for a lot of the things I went through in life, I was the first. And it was quite lonely. So now for me coming through that, I feel like it's my duty to turn back around and help those that are coming through to let them know what I went through. So it's easier for them. And I think it's really important. Cause for me, money's one thing. And you know what I do, so money's there. But for me, legacy is what's most important. And I feel like I look at you and see your growth and I can say, look, I played a small part in helping that, do you know what I mean? And when I'm gone, these are the things that you're gonna leave behind. So for me, legacy is much more important than money. I hear that. And firstly, it's not a small part. It's definitely, you've played a massive role in my development and becoming who I am today without a doubt. So thank you for that. So Emmanuel, you are a financial advisor. You've fused to that, if I'm not mistaken, you was banking, right? One of the larger firms doing investment banking for wealthy clients, et cetera. What actually made you want to do that as a career path? Yeah, so basically growing up in, growing up in a lime house, right next to Knay Wolf. And one day I come home, coming up the stairs. Anyone been in a council state, you know, what the stairs are like, it's not a nice place at all. You don't want to do that. And I remember seeing that my mom had slipped on one of the steps and she hurt her leg and she couldn't really walk. So I helped her out, got her back in the house. She got changed. We never really spoke about it. The next morning, my mom's leaving the house and she's smiling. I'm thinking, mom, why are you so happy? After what happened yesterday, and my mom was like, oh, you know, I'm happy because I can go out and provide for my family. And I remember telling my mom like, I'm telling myself like, like mom, you'll never regret your investment in me. Like I see the sacrifices that you're making for me. Obviously my dad is working hard as well, but my mom was mainly around. So yeah. And so because of that, I remember looking out at them buildings in Knay Wolf and just being like, I know it seems very silly, but they could leave the lights on. So at night time, all those buildings had the lights on. Whereas I used to get in trouble if you left the light on in the kitchen. And I remember saying to myself, if these men can leave the lights on, there must be money there. And I need to make money so I can provide for my family. And so that was literally, I saw the Barclays building. I was like, and the HSBC building, those are the two buildings I saw at night. I got to get in one of those buildings. And by 22, became Youngest Financial Advisor in Barclays in the country. Because the youngest. The youngest. That's my guy. You mentioned earlier that you've been through a few challenges that have, I guess, helped make you who you are today. Can you tell us about some of the challenges? Yeah, so my parents are Nigerian, born in Nigeria and came over to the UK. So I was the first person born in my family in the UK. And I guess we grew up in a place called Tower Hamlets in East London. And it's quite a deprived area. But also, it's very much a mainly Bangladeshi area. And so what happened is, is that we experienced a lot of discrimination. But not from, you know, people say, white people. No, it was mainly from the Bangladeshi community. So we had our car set on fire. We've had, they set our balcony on fire. They used to, when my dad used to come into the estate, it spit on him. They'd thrown rubbish on him. We've had phone calls where you pick up the phone and they tell you to leave. And so we've experienced a lot of, it was a very hard time. But through it all, you know, I still went to school and I had a lot of Bangladeshi friends. And I was able to understand that just because somebody from a certain community does something to you, that doesn't mean you tarnish the whole community. But, you know, for my dad, because he was experiencing this stuff, you know, it made him have a view on, you know, Muslims as general, in general. And so, you know, him being a Christian, he felt like, you know, this was a reflection of everybody. And I felt I was unfair. Because I'm like, no, I've got friends at school who are Muslim, who are Bangladeshi, who are from these communities. And they're nothing like these individuals. You know what I mean? And it made it hard. And so, for me, it was like, actually, sometimes you go through stuff in life, but you can't blame everyone. You can't look to discriminate everyone. And I feel like because I saw the two parts, I saw it different. So two people can experience the same thing. But although they experienced the same thing, even at the exact same time, what it meant to them can be two different things. And so what it meant to me was, I needed to be a light to show my father and my family that actually there are some good people here and you don't have to blame everyone. But also I had to understand that, you know, like I could see the pain in my dad, in my mom. You know, my mom, we had to go and beg at the council to get moved because we just got too much. And they finally moved us. And then when we finally moved, like, I remember looking out of the window and seeing the buildings in Canary Wolf because you moved to a place called Limehouse. And it's a weird environment to have a postcode of E14 is where that's Limehouse. But the same postcode is Canary Wolf. And to be in poverty and living on a council estate with all that comes of living in that environment and feeling the only time you feel safe is when you're in your home. Like the second, what people don't understand about council estate living is, the second you open your door, it's a battle. There's a battle to get to school because now you've got other schools that you might bump into and someone from your school might have beat up someone from another school and they can't catch them, so they'll catch you. So now you're in, just because you go to the same school, you're now in beef that you never had nothing to do with in the first place. Then you get to school and man, they're testing you every single day. Every day, someone's gonna try it and you've got to be ready. It's a jungle. You've got to be ready. Any weakness, that's it. You're finished every single day. If people know they can take it out, take the mick out of you, they know they can get one over you. So I always say like, now in my life, I'm at a point where I can be myself in rooms, but at school, I never felt like I could be myself because I had to put on this kind of more tougher image and I had to be the joke star and hang around with these older boys that, you're kind of feared, but being around them meant that other people wouldn't mess with you. Do you know what I mean? So it's mad like you're scared of these men by the same time, if you're not around these men, next man will try it with you. So now you've got to put yourself in these environments. And a lot of people won't understand what it's like to be in those environments, but every day is a test, every day is a battle. And then you get home and your parents think you're in Lagos, we're not in Nigeria, but their mindset is from the country that they've come from. And so now you're trying to navigate this English culture that they're raising you in with this Nigerian culture that they've come from and that they understand with the roads that is new to you and no one really gets it. And it was just, it was so difficult. And I saw people, I've seen people die, I've seen knives, guns, people being, and it was just things that you just didn't see as a child, you ended up seeing. And I just said, I remember telling myself, you ought to be the change that you want to see. I can't be angry at people for the decisions that they've made, but what I can do is make sure the decisions I make are ones for the better. And so when I see people like yourself doing well, and you say, oh, you know, Eman, I want to try and develop and do this, I'm like, it's a joy to me. Because too often I'm having to talk to man about, no, don't go back, don't go and get revenge because if you do that, now you're in danger. Like I've had to have those conversations too often. So to have a conversation where someone says, I want to personally develop and I'm looking at you and I see what you're doing, can you give me some tips and some, that's a much better conversation to me. And so that's why for me, and the amount as much seeds as I can plant, I'm going to let them water and let them grow and try and be that positive change. Yeah. That's a lot, man, you're, maybe it's, but I guess as I listened to you, I hear you've been through hell in honesty, especially in the younger parts of your life, to get to where you are today. So even myself, I've been through some things that, when I do it, it makes me want to not, I guess, be that same light. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how have you been able to maintain that same joy or that same positive mentality, even though you've been through all of that? How did it not change you? So growing up, I had a bit of a stammer, bit of a stutter. So my tongue is a bit big for my mouth. So when I used to talk, my tongue would stick, so I'd slur certain words and wouldn't be able to, I'd have to, you know, kind of when I was younger to say certain words. And obviously people might take the mic out of you, like, what are you saying? Do you like to try and take the mic out of you? And I remember I used to get angry and get in trouble at school, in primary school. And I remember my mom telling me that you can't give somebody the remote control to your emotions. If somebody knows that if they press that button, they're gonna get that reaction. Anytime they want that reaction, they are now in control of you. You're not in control of yourself. And so I had to learn to understand that I have to be in control of me. And so for me, the light is about, it's so much easier to be dark than it is to be light. But I don't know if you've ever had one light bulb in one room and then all the other lights go off and then it goes dark and then all of a sudden, it's like that small light starts to shine a bit brighter. And actually it means that you can see just that bit better in the darkness. And I feel like for me, I'd rather be light than dark. And I enjoy the joy that I bring to people. Like I'm literally coming here, one guy just stopped me. I don't even know, I think he's like Filipino or something, do you know what I mean? And he stopped me and he's just like, I watch your content. Sorry, I had to stop you. Like I love what you're saying. And he was like, I mean, look, you said not to swag too much and not to overspend. I mean, all black, he's just in a tracksuit and a jumper. And he's like, I'm just going back to work now. And I listen to you, what you say, I listen to you. And it's helped me and it's like that joy to know that something that I started in my bedroom, just talking to my mobile phone, not knowing who was going to be listening or not listening to know that now it's transcended to other communities and other people. And people are being touched every day by your content. For me, I'd rather be the light because there's so much darkness in this world. There's so much gossiping, there's so much badness in this world. And it's so much easier that for me, I get a joy out of being the light. It's beautiful. And you know what? It's so obvious in the way that you conduct yourself and the way that you speak and the content that you create that what you're saying is actually true because it's so easy to be unauthentic. There's so many people that would say, I, yeah, like I'm here to serve people. I'm here to help, et cetera. But when push comes to serve, it's not really what they're about. So I want to say thank you on behalf of everyone that is out here that's benefiting from your work. It's, yeah, I'm really grateful for you with that. No, I appreciate it. You know what? It's like, you don't know, but it means a lot to me coming from you because you're someone that I respect highly, someone that I've seen your progress in your journey and see what you go through and see what you stand for. And as long as I've known you always been someone of credibility. And I think it's very hard to find people who say what they mean and mean what they say. But you have always stood the test of time. You've always been a good person. Like, and I'm just so proud of you. And such an honor to be around you and like seeing your progress just makes you think there's another claw that I can try and help and support. And then to think that now, soon they won't need to come to meet I'll be able to come to you. Do you know what I mean? And that's how it works. Do you know what I mean? It's like you touch a generation and then they touch the next and so forth. So it's amazing. Thank you, bro. So listening back to what you're saying and also looking at some of the content you create, there is a underlying theme that I pick up of personal accountability. So I know you don't ignore the structural things around us. You understand economics. You understand all the things that stop you from getting there. But at the same time, you never shy away from this is your job to hold this or to do this for yourself. Where does that mentality come from? It simply comes from the place of the fact that I shouldn't be where I am. I should not be on national television telling the country about their finances. That shouldn't Sky News, BBC, Channel 4, ITV, whatever. They shouldn't think, oh, there's a financial issue in this country. Let's go speak to the guy from a council state in Tower Hamlets and asking to tell the country what they should be doing with their money or their finances. I shouldn't be here. If I listen to all the stats, if I listen to all the people with better opportunities, people that were smarter than me, like all of those things, like you said, the social constructs, but I'm here. Yeah. I'm here. I didn't have one big brother, one mentor that came from my community or someone like my dad's friend or something, none of that. Yeah. But I'm here, I exist. And so for me, a lot of people can stand up and say, oh, you can do this, you can be that. But people then turn around and say, oh, but you come from privilege or they can't do that with me. Yeah, yeah. You can't turn around and say, I haven't come from no privilege. I didn't get, I've got four Cs. I've got a CDE at college. I've got a third class at uni. I'm still here. Yeah, yeah. I'm still, do you understand what I'm trying to, so you're not gonna, you can't tell that story to me. Do you know what I mean? So for me, it's like, I know that the thing that is holding you back is you. You don't believe it. You don't believe it enough to make the sacrifices to achieve your dreams. So the question is really is that you don't want it. And if you wanted it, you'd go and get it. Do you know what I mean? And so from, and that's fine. And that's why I talk about that in my content of time. If you don't want it, it's cool. If you don't want it, that's fine. If you just want to go out and do enjoyment and all of that, that's fine, but just admit that. Just be honest with yourself and say, actually I'm just gonna get paid, pay my bills and then spend whatever's left. And I'm just gonna keep doing that and hopefully that will work out for me. That's fine. But the reality is everyone talks about, I want a house. I want to retire. I want to be a millionaire. I want to have a business. I don't want to work for someone forever. All of these things require work. So who is challenging you? Because I fall out on social media. You can just say whatever you like. Do you know what I mean? As long as you say it, like everybody's entitled to their opinion. Well, who's challenging your opinion to say, actually what you're saying and what you're doing, don't match up. That's me. I'm that guy. That's great, man. And who's that guy for you? Who challenges you to actually push you to do what you say you're gonna do? Mainly I've got my cousin. My cousin SA, we grew up obviously from young. He lived in Brixton. I lived in East, so I used to go to his house a lot. And we have been accountability parlors. I don't even know why we even knew about accountability parlors, but since he was nine years old. So I was nine, he was seven. And we were like, we're gonna hold each other accountable. And we have done so for our whole lives. Then I've had obviously got other male friends and then I've got industry friends as well. So there are people that you build up. Like for me, I'm the type of person. If I see somebody that's special, I see someone that's doing well, someone that's got an amazing gift, they have to become part of my network. I can't just say hi and bye to you, like no, I need you to become part of my network. Because the stronger the network is, the stronger people you have around you, the more gifts, the more talents, the better voices that you have around you, the better outcomes you're gonna get in life. I doubt. And I guess that brings us nicely back to the original topic around transnational relationships. So it's beautiful that you're able to build those relationships with people around you in your network and your community or your industry. But how do you balance that between actually building a genuine friendship versus business being business? And would you say those relationships are transnational or they're something else for you? I think there are transnational relationships. And it's even transnational relationships. And there are people that you keep longer terming, you know, do you know what I mean? Like I've had loads of people that I've spoke to and helped in that moment and got on really well with. But you know, we're just, everyone's busy, everyone's doing, and it's not personal. Do you know what I mean? I think you have to understand that some people, they'll come into your life at a certain point and you let them go and that's all right. I feel that one of the biggest problems with people is is that we don't think enough like a business. Do you know what I mean? And like, you know, if you're a business, if you have a supplier that's delivering your goods late or your goods are coming in broken, you find a new supplier, right? But if you have a friend that's not living up to your expectations or constantly letting you down or not being a good friend, what do you do? You say, oh, but we've been friends since primary school or I've known you since secondary school. Like you make a reason of length of time as to why you need to maintain this friendship or change. And actually sometimes you just got to let people go. And just because I let you go now, doesn't mean that in four, five years time we won't reconnect and pick it back up again. But sometimes we're just in different spaces and I think it's okay. It's okay for us to be friends now and let go and then be friends in the future. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, so when you go through the process of letting go of a friend for whatever the reason is, like how would you go about doing that in a, I guess, a compassionate way? You know what? I have to be honest. I don't have time for the kind of the talking about it. You know, we're good friends, but listen, we're gonna know, right? You're gonna, everybody's busy. Everybody's trying to do stuff. Do you know what I mean? And if it's not making sense, it's just not making sense. For me, I just pull away, just, you know, less messaging, just let you know, I'm a bit busy right now, can't make this. Cause at the end of the day, when someone says they can't make something, nine times out of 10, if it was really important, they can make it. What they're saying is that, I haven't, you're not important enough for me to make the sacrifice to be whatever you need to be. And that's okay. Because everyone has to prioritize what's right for them. But for me, it's about understanding that if I'm gonna prioritize you and say, look, I'm gonna, cause I would say to myself, if I leave my house and my kids are in my house and I'm outside, that's time away from me being with my kids. That's time away from me bonding with them, creating memories with them, educating them, having fun with them. So it has to make sense. And if I'm taking the time to be away from them and away from my family for you, and yet you're not doing either what we discuss or you're not adding the value, then I've always, I had something to do. Do you understand? Just cause I made time for you, doesn't mean I wasn't busy. Do you know what I mean? I was busy, but I decided to make time for you. And I think it's really important to then say, to make sure that you're not sacrificing other things that are important to you for people that don't really appreciate your time because they think, oh, well, you are free. No, I've made myself free. That doesn't mean I didn't have something else that I couldn't be doing. Yeah, yeah. And you're right. I guess when it's so easy to see people like yourself, you've got a million things you're doing. And obviously, like you say, you're a family man as well. And you do take that very seriously. It's something that I've always loved about you. But people are so quick to just ask for favors or not value all it is that you're really sacrificing to be there. And as they often say, when you say yes to something, you'll say no to something else that matters. Exactly. And it can be difficult, cause let's put it, sometimes people are cheeky. Like for example, let's say that I'm meeting you, we're close. And then someone reaches out to you and says, I know you're close with E-man. And can you introduce me to him because I want to do X, Y, Z. Sometimes you think to yourself, well, actually it took me a long time to get close to you, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So why don't you take the time to like, am I fast tracking you? And you haven't really done the working to get this person into your network. Or like, why don't you make sure you go to an event where you man is and introduce yourself. And then, do you know what I mean? But on the other hand, it's like, for me it's like, if I rate you as a person and I want to see you in, then I don't mind connecting you because we're all winning. Cause I know how special you are. And if this person's special, now you're going to create something special that we can all benefit from. Whether it be a podcast, whether it be a business idea, whether it be a community group, whether it be a WhatsApp group, whatever it may be. So for me, I'm not touchy on, oh, I've had people say, oh, you know X, Y, Z. Can you introduce me? I'm like, yeah, no problem. And I'll phone them like, oh, yeah, this is my bridging. I'm only one hour. I'll be like, yeah, this is my bridging. But if I rate you, I can make that connection. But I think a lot of the time it's like, we don't want to see someone else win because we're afraid of the scarcity mindset, right? If I help you, now I'm going to get less. That's not how it works. If I help you and it goes well, now there's more opportunity for all of us. There's more money in the pot. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? So what we focus on is the financial. Oh, if I help Claude with this connection, Claude makes more money. So now there's less money for me. Now he makes more money than me. But actually, because Claude has a successful business, now there are more people looking to invest in businesses. So now we've got more opportunity for us to make because people have seen, we can use Claude as the case that they say, well, Claude did it. So why do we do it? Do you understand what I'm trying to say? That's the mindset of abundance. But we have a mindset of scarcity because we're used to not having much. So we don't want to share because I've only got this little bit, but actually there is so much available. The more we work together, the more opportunities it creates. Without a doubt. And we hear people talk about the abundance mindset, scarcity mindset all the time. And you're 100% concealing people's actions. But as much as you get told, have an abundant mindset, that's not necessarily a pathway that a lot of people know how to get there. How have you been able to do that for yourself or help cultivate it on other people? I'm gonna be honest, therapy. I'm gonna be honest. And this is something that, I feel like it's a swear word in our community that while you don't need therapy, you've got Jesus. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I mean? And don't get me wrong that I'm a very, I've got a man of faith, I go church regularly and so forth. But there's something about sitting down and speaking to somebody that can respond to you straight in the moment. And that's qualified, do you know what I mean? In what they're doing to give you that advice and guidance and look at your actions. And for me, one of the big things I learned in therapy was that when I was coming up, I'm coming from poverty, I'm coming from nothing. So everything is hustle. You can take big risks. What have you got to lose? You're already at the bottom. There's nothing to lose. So you're taking huge risks, you're gambling on yourself, you're betting on yourself, you're taking every opportunity. You might be working for free sometimes, taking gigs for free just to get the opportunity, just to be able to get the exposure and people to see what you're doing. And then you get to what I realized I got to this level and I'm on national television on a regular basis. I still got the same mindset as when I started. I never sat down with anyone and said, how do I now reset my mind to understand the position I'm in today? And so what happens is you're taking huge risks but now you're risking your wife, you're risking your kids, you're risking your house. You can't take the same risk as when you were coming up, do you know what I mean? Because you've got more to lose now, you've gained. And also even in a different space, I know people right now who have millions in the bank and they still take every opportunity and they're still working every hour that they can because they're scared to go back to poverty because the mindset is I have nothing. But when you understand that, well, I've had the mindset to get here. So even if I lost it, I'll just do it again. People don't, God, you know, you do business. You know how much businesses you've started and then it's not going wrong. Most of them. But the reality is is that you know that I can do it. So if this one didn't work, I'll just go again. That's the abundance, I know that I can do it again. So I don't need to face, the fear is when you first started, you've never done it before. But we do it and then we still have the same fear after we know that we know how to do it and how to make it work. And so for me, that's where therapy helped me sit down and understand that, right, when I had nothing, my goal was to make money. Now that I have my family, my goal is my family and spending time with my kids and so forth. So I would take less money to have the time to spend on my family. And when I understood that, my actions and I reflected the bills that I took, the corporate gigs that I took, the social media content that I decided to make, all changed because now I'm making it work for me. When I had nothing, I had to work for whatever I could get. But now that I've got something, I make that something work for me. And then because I understand that there's an unlimited amount of money, of opportunity, now I have to get to a place of contentment where I know that I could go make more, but I'm okay with what I have because making more means less time with my family. And I'm not ready to sacrifice that because that's what's really important to me. Because I know my why. And a lot of people are running around and they don't know their why. They don't know why they're here. They don't know why they wake up in the morning, what they do. They just, your alarm wakes them up, they get up, they go to work, they have lunch, have the same meal, do finish work, come home, watch the same evening shows, go to sleep, the alarm wakes them. They don't know why they're doing what they're doing. And because of that, anything can happen on social media and if it can happen on the TV and they just change. I meet people all the time, one minute you were doing this. I mean, next time, oh, how's that hair business going? Oh, no, I'm doing this now. Oh, I mean, how's that? Oh, no, I don't do that anymore. I'm doing this now. Because they don't know their why and why they're doing what they're doing. There's so much wisdom in what you're saying, bro. I hope people are listening right now, actually understand what you're saying, but you mentioned therapy and without a doubt therapy is so important. And like you say, in our community is something that people really do avoid. I have to say for myself, it's been a life-changing experience, been in it consistently since I think 2018 now and it definitely has kind of, like you say, reset the way you think and reset the way you go about things. But as much as I try to convince other people, especially other men that therapy is something they sort of invest in, I get two excuses. One is that I can't afford it right now and the other is they say, oh, I can just talk to my friends or my girlfriend or whatever it is. What would you say to somebody that says one of those two things? I think, again, they can't afford thing. If I said that you had to do this and pay this, like, and pay this amount, you'd make the money for something that you thought was important. So when someone says that, a lot of the time when we know this from business, when you say they can't afford it, it's not that they can't afford it, is that they don't see the value in it. Because people spend money on things that cost a lot more than the price of, people will spend 100 pounds on a pair of trainers, but they wouldn't spend 30, 40 pounds on therapy. So it's not that I can't afford it, it's that I don't see the value in it. So people have to understand the value in it first. So number one, for me, the value of therapy is that how often do I sit down to understand me? Bro, we wake up every day, I wake up, I look after my kids, I look after my wife, I've got to look after my mortgage, I've got to look after my business. I've got random strangers on the internet that DM me, I've got to try and help them and look after them. Look after everybody else. How often do I sit down with someone and say, what's going on with me? What's really, why did I get angry that day? Why am I happy today? And I wasn't happy yesterday. What's changed? What's happened to, when are you really gonna, because for me it's like, almost it's like, you have a car, you take it to a mechanic, right? You do an MOT regularly. But you also, you might do a service. Or you might hear a noise and say, oh, that doesn't sound right. Let me go get it checked out. Why would you not do the same with yourself? Knowing that if you are not right, you don't make no money. Like do you understand what I'm trying to say? If I don't check up on me, and I don't understand me and what's going on in me, how do I make this money? Or how do I reach my goals or live my dream? Like number one. And then for me it's like, in regards to like, as a man, how can, like a lot of the time, there's a lot of pressures. A lot of pressures that men are going through right now, especially with, so as a black man, with black women now being empowered, black women making more money than a lot of black men, a lot of black men don't know their identity. Because their identity was in money. Oh, I'm the breadwinner. So what happens when she's making more dough than you? What do you do now? A lot of men don't know what they used to do anymore. So they don't know their place. They don't know their role. And so for me, and a lot of men haven't been raised by men. They haven't had a predominant male figure in their life. And so they don't understand what their role is. And so for me, I feel like we are so much, so what do we do? We find things to fill that space that void. It might be holidays. It might be clothes. It might be watching things on social media, whatever it may be. Like we find voids to actually avoid us sitting down and saying, who am I? What's important to me? Because when I sat down, I realized, in my 30s, I was still using the triggers that I had in my 20s. And I'm a different person. But when did that take the time to check me? And that's what therapy is. I feel like the same way you'd go for a massage or you'd go for anything just to give you a break. For me, that's what therapy is. There's a room, there's quietness. And somebody is just asking questions about me. Just for one hour or 40 minutes, however long it's gonna last. In a month, to me, it's a no-brainer. Yeah, definitely without a doubt. And I guess my last question to you on the therapy topic, if you don't mind sharing, was one of the more important lessons that you've learned through being in therapy for how long you've been in it? Yeah, I think the biggest thing that I learned was in regards to just the type of husband I want to be. I think I realized in therapy that there's a perception in regards to I know how I'm a nice person and so forth. But actually, how much time do I spend working out what's important to my wife? Like when my therapist is like, well, what's your wife's dreams? What's your wife's goals? How will you help? You start starting it. It's embarrassing, bro. You're thinking to yourself, ah, you're this great husband. But actually, sometimes we are so focused on us, we're just doing. And so we're going through the motions. So for me, it was a big, I had to get a big lesson and learn about, actually, E-man, your wife has stood by you and supported you and looked after the kids when you gone out to film this or gone away for weeks to film and do all of this other stuff. It's your turn to stay with the kids and let her do what's important to her and support her on her dreams and her goals and so forth and really make those changes. And I don't think I would have seen it from that point of view if I didn't stop. See what therapy does is allow you to stop for a moment and look at your present, look at your past and look at where you're potentially going and stop and say, do I really want to go there? Do I still want to carry on this? This is what I did today. This is what I did yesterday. But I want to do this tomorrow. And that's what therapy allows you to do. Just stop for that moment and then make adjustments. It's powerful. It's really powerful. And it just reminds me of why I even reached out to you in the first place. I think it was once again around 2018, when we reached out to you on social media. This time, your brand was definitely not smaller. So probably not as many people trying to reach you now. So probably got lucky in that regard. So I'm grateful for, but as much as I can see, you understood things to do with money. You'd already had your career in banking. You had all that sorted. It wasn't your finances that caught my attention. It was the way that I had seen you conducted yourself in regards to your family or the things I'd heard about, the way that you've talked about or treated your family that stood out to me. Because if I'm being honest with you, there's not nowhere near enough remodels of people where you can see that. I'm lucky I can look to my dad. My dad's in a whole different generation. So to be able to see it from someone like you, that's been really powerful. So I guess my question to you following that would be, what advice would you give to other young men when it comes to managing their relationships in their life? I think for me it's really important. And what you said is so true that me and my wife, people don't like to share their relationships on social media because I think they think if they share it, they're gonna end up in divorce or if it doesn't work out. Now you've got that embarrassing, oh, we've split up or whatever and so forth. But I feel like for me it was really important to show you, look, the questions I get is, are you married? Yes. How many kids have you got for? Is it with the same woman? People ask me this question all the time. Four kids. Is it the same woman? One wife. Yeah, we got married first, no six before marriage. Like, you know, and then we got married and then we had four kids. And it's not seen, it's just not something I've seen. And I said to my wife, like, I can't just talk finance because without the stability of my family, my finance, it doesn't work. Yeah. And so for me it's so important to show you because I feel like so often it's portrayed that it's just single black mums. Like there are no black dads or there's no married couples that exist. And I'm like, we're here, we meet each other regularly. But that's just not portrayed in the media so I thought it was really important to share our journey and show what we're trying to build and how we're building it and have these conversations and put them out in the open. So that's really important. I think for young men, young black men, I really wanted to understand that before I met my wife, when I think about the person that I was before marriage, I almost am embarrassed in the mindset that I had, and in the way that I conducted myself. Do you know what I mean? And a lot of the time as men we have to understand that especially now having daughters, like that's someone's daughter or someone's child. And a lot of the time you're playing with somebody's emotions. And what happens is that your interaction with that person is causing a little break. Then they go to meet someone else and they get a little more broken. So by the time they get to their life partner, they're in pieces and you have a part to play in them. And when we talk about baggage and what people are doing, it's like actually as a man, you bring so much more than finances. But are you working on yourself? Are you making sure that you're kind? Are you making sure that you're a leader? Are you making sure that you're compassionate? Sometimes man, we don't talk. I meet guys, like I've got a WhatsApp group with some of my men that I grew up with. Put in a deep message in there. Tumbleweeds, nothing. Talk about our arsenal there. So the man there was coming from everywhere. They got emojis, they've got pictures. Man are giving you stats. Talk about boxing or this boxer's better than that boxer. But talk about things that are really affecting us. We need to work on that. Because you've got to understand is that, the reason I have to constantly work on myself is that I chose to bring four children into this world. They didn't ask to be born. So I need to make sure that I am in a place where I can be emotionally available to them beyond sport, beyond the money. Like actually be able to be a role model to them. Like I always say, I need to be the number one influencer in my kid's life. I can't allow social media or someone on social media to be the main influencer of my children. Do you know what I mean? And so that can only come from spending time, from creating moments, creating memories and being a living example. So how I treat my wife is how my sons will expect to treat their partner and how my daughters will expect to be treated. So if my daughters see me shouting at their mum, why would they not expect their partner to shout at them? If my daughters see me disrespecting their mum or not providing for their mum or not being there, or not being affectionate towards their mum, why would they not expect the same thing from their partner? Yeah. And if my son's same thing, if they see me being aggressive towards their mum, why would they not feel that that is the way that they should be? So I have got to work on myself because not only is it about me and my wife, but it's also about the impact and impression I'm leaving on my children, on how they want to be spoken to, treated and expectations that they have for their lives. And so it's vital that as men, we take time to work on ourselves. And that works both with us communicating as men, but also communicating with opposite sex. It doesn't always tell man them, you don't have to try and smash every woman you meet. Like, it's okay. You can be friends with the opposite sex, it's all right. But it seems like, no, I really like her, she's nice. So what does that mean? Like, you know, you have no other intentions other than these three, like let it go. What would you say some of the, I guess, issues people have had with money on an emotional level that leads them to make bad decisions that you've seen in your profession? I've seen the biggest one, like, you know, a lot of my clients are black women that are looking for support help and so forth. Very successful at the moment, they're doing really well, making good money. But a lot of the time they don't have any savings or anything to really shout. They might have bought a house just by, because they want to buy a house, but other than that, they haven't really got much to say for the type of level of income. You know, a lot of them are six figures plus, like, do you know what I mean? And then they haven't really got stuff to show. And when we really deep down, a lot of the time is, it can be things like the, things like the dad having issues with their dad, absent fathers, and so sometimes if you're spending habits, really it's just you covering, giving yourself a nice feeling because it covers the pain that you feel inside. Yeah, and sometimes the way you've learned about the thing when it comes to money is that it's a release. When you order something on Amazon or something like that, it's nice, like you've seen it, you've ordered it, and now somebody's bringing a package to you, just for you, all the way to your door. And you get to open that, open the door, get your package, you open it, you look at it. A lot of the time, that's as far as people go. The amount of things people have bought and never, ever opened, never used, but in that moment, it gave them a feeling. And so a lot of the time, you've got to really look at yourself and say, if you know your why, you know your goals, why isn't it matching up? Why is your, your behavior, you'll find it matching up with the things that you say you want for your life. And so it's deeper issues that the things that you've been through, trauma, I've had people who have gone through things like sexual assault and so forth. And because of these things, they feel like I can buy this stuff and feel like a princess. Because the reality is that because of the assault that happened to me, I don't feel confident. I don't feel like Beyonce, do you know what I mean? But I can buy this outfit, and now I feel like Beyonce. But once you've worn it, it's gone. So you've got to keep buying it. And the reality is that you need to sit down and understand that you're already Beyonce. You're your own Beyonce, you're your own person. Do you know what I mean? You're already special. And a lot of the time, this is the conversation I have with clients, is that you've got to love yourself. They think they're coming to me and talking about all the things they want to buy and how I want to. The biggest thing I can teach my clients is to love themselves. Because once you love yourself, all of a sudden you understand that I don't need to buy these trainers or these clothes to make me any better. I'm already special. I'm already out of hundreds. In fact, I make these clothes better because I'm wearing them. I make this car better. It's not the car that I drive that makes me valuable. I'm already fully valuable. Do you understand? Because you're one of a kind. And anything that's one of a kind is precious. It's precious. So you're already winning. So once you understand and love yourself, you understand that these brands and these clothes and I don't need a bigger house, I don't need this. All of a sudden, life is so much better. But while you're in that search for loving yourself and you think consumerism and buying things is going to help you feel better, it just constantly make money, spend money and it's a never-stopping cycle. Yeah. Without a doubt, self-worth, self-love. They are the two of the most powerful things that anyone can have for themselves. And you are right. It will influence the way you show up in your finances or it will influence the way you show up in relationships and probably all areas of our life. But I guess for somebody who right now is struggling with either one of those two things, outside of therapy as we've already touched on, is there anything that they can be doing to begin to build and cultivate that within themselves? I think the big thing is to delay gratification. So understand that, I think we live in a generation of instant gratification. So I want it, I buy it, I need it now. But actually it's really important to delay your gratification and say, okay, I want to go on that holiday, but I don't need to go now. I can wait six months. I can wait until next year and give myself the 12 months to save for it. So when I go, I'm not having to use my savings that I was meant to use towards my property, for example. Do you know what I mean? It's actually saying that you delay your gratification. Then it's about your needs of once. I always tell people, get a piece of paper, put a line down the middle, needs once. Go back for your last three months bank statements. Write down all the things that you needed to spend money on and all the things that were a choice. Do you know what I mean? So you might have needed food, but I didn't have to be Uber Eats or takeout or whatever. Do you know what I mean? And so you can go for and really see that actually a lot of the money that we are spending is on our wants. And so making a shift to say, okay, these are the things I need and I want to spend less on my wants. I want to budget my wants, makes a big difference for you. Yeah, right, I doubt. That's really helpful, practical advice. And I think that's something that very few of us actually do. I know for me, I recently, well, not recently, it might be two years now, I've been using that app called MR. It was like, yeah, shows me every one of my transactions. There's no hiding. It's like, yo, you spent this much on here now or on clothes, et cetera. And that awareness alone completely transformed the way that I handle my money. So that is for anyone that's at home, find yourself an app like that, you go for your bank statements, whatever it is that makes sense. Or if you're earning a certain amount, then definitely have a conversation with Emmanuel. He'll definitely help sort you out on that. So switching gears now. In your life, is there anything that has been a significant challenge that has set you up to success that you've had today or either that challenge or failure that you've experienced? I think throughout my whole life, I struggled with, I was scared to do public speaking because I didn't, because I had a little stamina and stuff or whatever. But I got over it, did acting classes, built my confidence. And now I speak on stages in front of hundreds, thousands of people. And I'm confident, you know what I mean? And I've been able to practice that and get over that. And that's helped me now make money from just speaking. Acting classes, I did not know that one though. Yeah, yeah, I did it through church. I used to, I joined my church drama group. And then we used to, I used to do drama. And yeah, so, so yeah, that really got me building confidence and standing up on stage. And it's like, these are the small things that you can do because I was telling myself I couldn't be there because I need to be in the back because I don't talk that great. But after a while, I learned how to manage it. I learned how to build enough confidence for the point. I don't even really, it happens sometimes, but I don't really do it as much anymore. Do you know what I mean? So it's one of those things that I've been able to overcome. And sometimes you've got to put yourself out there and get out of your comfort zone. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, I doubt. Getting out of your comfort zone is everything. And the reason I was laughing at acting classes because I started them last year myself. Yeah, same thing, like improving my public speaking and receiving my stage presence, things of that nature, they massively have paid off. And I think it's that willingness to do those random things that will build you up in obvious ways. So yeah, next up for me is dance classes. Dance, come on. Yeah, because yeah, I can't dance. Anyone of my friends know that, but obviously when I do get married, I think there's no escaping it on the day. Yeah, it seems to be ready for that. So a little earlier, you spoke about relationships, men, et cetera, and when they're in a relationship with a woman, one of the ways that we traditionally have seen our value has been what we can provide financially. And obviously that is changing now. So what is it that a man is actually supposed to be bringing into a relationship in your opinion? I think it's so multifaceted. I think for me, when I think about as a man, it's to bring to provide for my family. It's so that is one thing, but not just provide financially, provide emotionally, provide from a point of view of security. And to make sure they feel safe, I wanna provide a stable ground for my kids to feel like they can achieve anything. And so for me, the providing is not just from a financial point of view, but also it's about making sure that I'm a role model. I mean, it's about me saying as a man, show my sons what it means to be a man. Also show my daughters what it means to be a man and be example of how I'm there for them. So I can be strong and wrestle with my boys, but I can still play, pretend tea time with my daughters and the Barbies. It hasn't made me any less of a man. Do you know what I mean? And I can raise my voice to my children, to discipline them, but I can also talk softly and be happy and giddy with them when they do well or when we're playing and having fun. Do you understand? There's not one way to be a man. And I think it's so important to show them that men have more than just one, like I have a happy or sad, there's so much in between. But it's also for me, I wanna really push them to be the best versions of themselves. And so for me to give them that example, I need to make sure that I'm going out every day being the best version of myself. So for example, me now being on television, my kids see me on there, it's normal to them. So they would never feel like, oh, I can't be on TV. Do you know what I mean? It's normal to them. So for me, it's about them not feeling like they can't do anything that they want and me providing that for them. Yeah. And what does it mean to you to provide emotionally for your family? Yeah, for me, I think, I take pride in it. I'm so proud when I feel like, my wife feels that she can tell me her fears and tell me the things she's worried about and tell me the things that she thinks she needs help with. And I can be that support system for her. Do you know what I mean? I feel like it's good that with my wife, she doesn't feel that she has to speak to her girlfriend to talk about certain things that she knows that I'm in tune with her so she can have those kind of, what are called girly conversations with me. I want to know about how you're feeling. I know that it's your time of the month so your hormones are up and down. I want to be able to understand that better, share that with me, let's go through this. So now, rather than her butting it in, she shares it with me, we can talk about it. I can see the signs of when it's coming. Do you know what I mean? I can see when she needs a hot water bottle, she doesn't need to tell me. Do you know what I mean? I can go and do that. Do you know what I mean? I can go and be that support. I know when she might have had a rough day just from the way that she sighs so that I can just rub her feet. Do you know what I mean? Or I can get the kids to bed early. We don't need to always need to talk. That's for me, that's that emotional connection because I'm so connected to you as a person that I know without you speaking, I know from your actions how you're feeling. But then I also want you to talk because we all evolve, right? So certain actions might change over time and it means different things. So having those open conversations, if she's having an issue with one of her girlfriends, I want her to tell me. I don't want her to feel like, oh no, even I don't want to hear this. Even sometimes when she also talk about this celebrity done that and that, I'm not really that guy, but if you want to let it off, let it off, I'm here, I want to try and indulge you in this moment, do you know what I mean? And try and get in. Do you know what I mean? I watch her cooking programs and she's a baker so she loves Masterchef and I'll watch that with her. And she'll watch football with me. Do you know what I mean? We're here, we're in tune with one another. And the same thing with my kids. Like I want to know if you're not feeling well, you know that you can just jump in my arms and I want to put everything else down and make sure I'm here for you, do you know what I mean? If you're scared about something, if you're nervous, if you're, if someone's bullying you or not treating you right, you're not even going to hesitate because my daddy's there, I'm going to be able to say, he's my hero, do you know what I mean? So that comes with time and comes with you being open emotionally. Yeah, I think there's a lot of us that think we're being that open or we think we're creating that type of safe space with people around us. But in reality, that's not the other person's experience. How do you gain that level of awareness? And then once you get that awareness, how do you actually make sure you're showing up in the way that you're speaking about? For me, the biggest thing is not being offended by criticism. Please, for me, I want you to criticise me. I want to be a better version of myself. Like I think sometimes one of the problems is that you want to be open and then someone says something in a space that's meant to be open and now you're closed. Or now you're meeting this openness with aggression. And so now that person's afraid to be open now. You've now rumoured that, do you know what I mean? So it's really important that when you're being open, you may hear things that's not nice. You may hear things that you're not going to lack, but it's important to understand that it's not personal. Like it's coming from a place of love. Like if I love you, I want the best for you. So if your breath stinks, I'm going to tell you your breath stink. You understand? I know you don't want to hear it. But it's better, it's me, then you go outside now and embarrass us all in public. 100%. Do you understand what I'm saying? So it's one of the things where it's important. Like it can be hard to have these conversations, but it's really important. And it's the same thing. Like my children know they can criticise me. That's something I never grew up with, African parents. You can never criticise them. They're above reproach, do you know what I mean? But my kids, they can point out, Daddy, I don't think you did that well. Daddy, you're being lazy. Daddy get up and do you understand? And it's important. Like these are, this becomes normal to them. So when they have kids, that relationship exists. Because for me, I think sometimes we take, there are certain things we went through that were bad when we were kids. Well, we didn't repeat that and say, well, I went through it, so my kids are going to go through it. And it's actually, no, that's going to stay in the past. Like we're going to bring new energies and new things to it. And so it's really important for me to make sure that we change the culture for them and they're living differently. I doubt. I've always believed that feedback is the breakfast of champions. And it's true, but it's not easy. The thing that I do love about you once again is that I know you're not the speaking because maybe I think it was like a month ago, I dropped your WhatsApp message around something that I heard. Someone had something not so great to say. And I half hesitated before I sent it. It comes like, how are you going to respond to this? But yeah, the way you take it on board, you listened and you made the changes. I'm like, you know what? That's a fantastic lesson of what it means to A, be confident in yourself, but B, be willing to continue to grow me forward. And it's a relationship, right? Yeah. I think, but you know what? The matter of thing for me is, even if it didn't come from you, if it came from a total stranger, I would still take it because for me, I've put myself in a position. Do you know what I mean? I think it's so important that you understand that because I do this thing on social media, there are people that will take what I say and they will do things based on what I'm saying. So if I'm aligned with somebody and it's now causing people to do things that maybe is not in their best interest because they feel that, oh, this person is friends with E-Man or in company with E-Man, I've got to check myself. And I've got to make sure what is the messaging, what's happening and what's going on. Do you know what I mean? And that's not personal, that's business. It's the same thing that we saw with Karnia and Adidas. These things are not personal, it's business. Do you know what I mean? You see it all the time. And so that's how I see myself. I don't see myself, and this is when we talk about thinking big. I don't see myself as just in my, I see myself as a business, as a conglomerate, as a big corporation and how would I think on that level? Because how do I get to a point where I'm a corporation or I am big or I am making the money that I want to be making if I'm thinking small? Do you know what I mean? And feedback is a big part. 100%. So you mentioned about, especially when you left the, when you leave the council this day, that's where the chaos and the jungle. Yeah. How in business are you able to build trust and relationships when you've had those experiences where you couldn't trust people at that? Yeah, I think, you know what, for me, the big thing about building trust after you've come from a place where you couldn't really trust people is understanding that each experience is different. And for me, I don't do business, I don't just do business based on money. So I always do business based on people. So I've got to know you as a person before we can, because once we do business together, you're representing me, I'm representing you. And if I don't know you on a personal or know what type of person you are, it can be very difficult because now we might make money together, but you might go and do something and now my brand is tarnished. Do you know what I mean? For me, it's really important to say, understand also that when I see people winning, so one of the lucky things for me is that when I'm growing up, I was surrounded by people from other communities. Obviously mainly the Asian and Jewish community. And I saw how when they worked together, like even when it came to like buying a property, a lot of my Asian clients would buy properties in freeze. So three people would buy one property. They'd save together, buy that property, save again, buy another one until they all had three, then they'd take one each. And because they did it in that process, it moved so quicker. But then even if they had three, they might own one each, but they'll still all just live together in one and just keep buying. And I could see that the power of togetherness. So it made me realize that as much as I've had a bad experience in the past, I can't distrust because if I want to see the growth and get to the level that I want to be, I need to trust people, I need to have people around. But it's really important again to make sure you've got the right contracts in place. I worked with one client and he was like, I don't even trust the guy I'm doing business with, but I trust the contract. You know what I mean? So a lot of the time when it comes to really wealthy people, they might not even like each other, but they understand to keep their wealth and to continue to build, we're gonna work together. But we make sure that contract is watertight. So if anything goes wrong, we're covered, do you know what I mean? And so that's where it's right. Okay, too much word of mouth. I like you, so we just do business. Then when it all goes wrong, you have nothing to fall back on because you never had a contract. So it's really important to make sure that you've got contracts in place as well. Yeah, without a doubt. So, yeah, so when our contracts, it's a new lesson for me in all honesty. I've been lucky to not be burnt so far. And that's because I've been working with people that I trust. But I think as we get to the next level, as the money gets bigger, like yeah, it's time to get that under control as well. Definitely. All right. Emmanuel, thank you so much for your time today, bro. Like everything you shared has been really valuable. You've been open, you've been honest. And I really do feel like you share some lessons that we don't often hear from you. But I guess that goes to show there's so much in you that people can still learn from. I just want to say, please keep being the light that you are. Please don't ever change unless you've become the better version of yourself. And yeah, I just want to really say thank you for being such an amazing role model and big brother to me personally. No, thank you, my bro. Thank you for what you're doing. You know, keep doing it. It's, it's inspiring. So thank you for having me. My pleasure. So before you do go, I've got one more question for you. Got it. So obviously I've been starting this podcast. It's going well. We've got a few amazing guests down so far. You've been one of them, but I'm looking at you also having the future. Do you have any suggestions or recommendations of people who I should try to get on the show? Oh, definitely, man. You know, I've got my sister and bro, Bianca and Byron, Cole. So yeah, they'll be good. I think they'll bring a good balance and their journey and story is powerful. You know, Daniel Moses, you know, from Uber driver to property millionaire is an amazing story. And in Chasarovs as well, he's an amazing business entrepreneur as well. So he'd be a good one to have as well. Perfect. Thank you, Emmanuel. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in to today's episode. We release a new episode every Sunday, so make sure that you subscribe and follow us so that you never miss out. If you'd like some more inspiration while you wait for the next new episode, then check out the recommendation above. Don't forget to follow us on social media and you can send us a question or a dilemma that you'd like us to answer on the podcast. This is Group Williams, you've been watching Behind the Dreams and we look forward to seeing you at the next Dream Nation event.