 So thanks for joining me Paul and congratulations. Thank you for hosting me and thank you for all your contributions to that book as well. Okay, so let's start. What was the motivation for writing this book. There were several actually one was, as you know, I've been a professor at the University of California San Diego for many, many years. And in addition to my own, let's say, kind of struggles how to manage being so deeply into a biomedical materialistic science framework but also having a spiritual life how do I balance those. And that was challenging for me over the years. And as the years progressed, I would have students knocking on my door who learned I had a kind of a reputation for being spiritual as they would say, and they would want to chat with me how are you doing it how are you how are you managing it. Can I manage a spiritual life at the same time, going so deeply into the materialism. And we've had conversations I'd help them where I could. And that was part of the motivation to write a book to let people know that there are many scientists who do have deep, rich metaphysical mystical transpersonal lives, but who are highly successful in science. And if I may add, in addition, the book is about trying to understand the adverse consequences of the materialistic sciences, which you've been describing for decades, and also trying to overcome with your stages and sciences conferences and bringing people together to have the dialogues. Well, actually we're going to be resuming the stages and sciences conferences soon. Great. Stay tuned in for that. Tell me what did you discover as a result of writing this book I mean I've started to read it I haven't finished it yet but you know you talk about psychic abilities you talk about extraordinary phenomena you talk about non local dormant potentials. And there are other scientists here that you talked to interviewed. What was the main common thread in all this. The main common thread is that, perhaps surprising to many people that many many scientists have a deep, rich spiritual life, meaning they have either had a deep spiritual life and that led them to become a scientist. You mentioned some of the scientists I interviewed and I interviewed a little bit over 30 from around the world. Some had clairvoyant psychic these kinds of experiences as young children. And they wondered, what is all this about in relationship to the materialistic world that I live in, and that led them to science. They had been deeply educated in science had a more of a, we could call it a materialistic worldview. But then something happened, perhaps it was through a meditation or a psychedelic drug or a stress in the family but then they had an opening into the transpersonal. And that led them on their journey to maintain them being a scientist, but at the same time beginning a deep spiritual journey. And part of the discovery the book is, this is more common than people think. And I would encourage people to read the book because the stories of the scientist and what they shared with me, including you depart the, the richness of their lives and and how it's transformed their scientific work as well. Many are leading the so called charge to heal this false divide between science and spirituality. Well, our association began a while ago, when we actually work together on what came to be known as SBTI self directed biological transformation initiative. And you know, it's actually led to a lot of other things as well. Tell our audience a little bit about the findings of SBTI. Be happy to. Yeah, as you know the SBTI grew out of you and I having a chance meeting at a mini conference. And Deepak and I began to chat about the state of integrative medicine and integrative health and where is it working and where is it not working. And really where integrative medicine at least the research side was not working is that it wasn't holistic. It wasn't truly integrative. So we launched the SBTI program which was the first of its kind randomized clinical trial of a whole person medical system and we chose Ayurvedic medicine for obvious reasons the children center and my own background in it. And the study showed remarkable findings, meaning that when a person is submerged in an intensive whole person intervention in this case for this study and Ayurvedic approach. So many positive benefits for the person that weren't even targeted. In addition to all the physiological benefits and Deepak as you know we publish and think over two dozen manuscripts as a result of our collaboration. But there were also spontaneous changes in self compassion, just capacity for sleep, reduction in depression, spontaneous increases in sense of gratitude. And then I think of particular importance and adventures to you and to me was the change in their sense of identity. They had less of a sense of an egoic identity as typically defined when you ask somebody well, who are you they say well I'm an accountant or I'm in this. They identify with their social role. And those kinds of tags and identities lessened quite a bit. And they had more of a sense of just being an existing in the world. Part of the, the wholeness of everything and that was the journey that they got on so that was SBTI. And that's the SBTI also showed some changes in genetic activity telomerase inflammation etc right yeah very important biologic changes to. Yeah. The genes that were responsible for self regulation homeostasis went up and telomerase genes that were associated with Alzheimer's chronic disease diabetes, etc. They were down regulated. The earliest studies that showed that you know mental process can change genetic activity or process and consciousness can change genetic activities one of the earlier studies of course. Everybody's talking about it. Yeah, it was a fabulous study and just gave gives us insight into the deep wisdom of traditional systems of which I think, at least for some people in the western model or trying to emulate and get us towards because we need it. I'm speaking to Dr Paul Mills was the author of science being and becoming the spiritual lives of scientists. It's an extraordinary book with lots of anecdotes lots of stories. Lots of examples of what we would call transpersonal experiences but also experiences that normally would be considered psychic but actually. I think dormant non local potentials in all of us. So, you know, there's what there isn't enough time for to go through all of these examples but tell me a little bit about even Alexander because you know he's come under criticism from some military atheists about his fact that he was brain dead. What was your assessment of even Alexander story. Yeah, so as you mentioned when you first started speaking about the book in addition to the various chapters there there's material from four guests contributors and one of them is Evan Alexander. And I asked him to write one of the spotlights because he was deep in academia. And then as a result of having his near death experience had an awakening. And then he was trying to figure out with his life how do I balance all my training of materialism with now what I believe and say no to be true. And again back to the students I mentioned knocking on my door you see San Diego, I asked him to write a spotlight on his advice to people who who are deeply in the materialism and perhaps books like this will get people permission who are scientists to. All right, you know what, I'm going to, I'm going to do it I'm going to start opening the door to my own spirituality, at least in my own self if not my work. How do I do it and I asked him to write that spotlight for advice. No step one step two and so forth because he's been through it. And as far as I can tell, he's successfully been through it. So that that's what he wrote about. Yes, there are a lot of great stories in the book and I'll mention one of them since she mentioned the non dual. And one of the interviewees is a professor do son of Dorje and she's at the University of York in the UK. And she's been deep into to Buddhism and Buddhist meditation, particularly compassion meditation. And as a result of her practices one day she went into a deeply non dual state and she was just in that for a long, long time, and she was struggling. How do I continue my life and my work being in this state because as you know the, the sense of self the egoic center of perception goes away and she wasn't sure how to how to manage living. And one of the stories she told, after this happened she went to what are called the summer research institutes that are up in New York the mind and life group host these. There she came across a Buddhist monk, and she said may I speak with you I'm struggling with the experiences that are unfolding me in me. And he said to her bluntly, Well, this is the path that you walked upon, and you can either go back and accept the conditioned reality that you have been living in your whole life. Or you can figure out how to manage the new state of consciousness you're in, and progress with your life. And it was a deep release for her she just cried with the monk and she just realized more fully what has happened to her. And her decision point, and her decision was, I'm going to keep going. I will find the next step and the next step of integration and unity. And there are quite a few stories like that of this so called crossing a threshold, and then there's decisions to be made. Do I go back to what's comfortable and I think that kind of moment has often been called the dark night of the soul, where you kind of also start to question all your provisional identities. And you find that, in fact, that's what they are provisional they're constantly changing. I can't find an entity called Deepak. Look at my life, you know, so which Deepak the four year old Deepak, 15 year old Deepak Deepak from yesterday. And you know it's pretty kind of shocking in the beginning to discover that you're not really who you thought you were. And that has been part of my journey as well. Let's get to something really that I've been struggling with but not struggling so much anymore. People say what is science and I say science asks what's out there and how does it work. And spirituality asks who's asking who wants to know. I mean that's as simple as that you know science is about the observer observed and spirituality is about the observer. You know, I have struggled with this whole notion of an embodied observer, because there's none to be found. Okay, there's, you know, what we call the body itself as an object of experience. Mind is an object of experience, you know what we call the Rites, you know, perceptual activity that we call matter, you know, so we call this matter, but it's human word for a particular modality of perceptions, which includes everything from sound to touch to stay smell, my interpretations, what I think it is all my models. And all this is appearing on the screen of consciousness. Consciousness itself doesn't have a form so doesn't have a border so it has to be outside of space time it's as simple to me right now that even this experience you and I having is being processed in a non local domain, even though it says that you know you are biased to where are you and you're back in North Carolina, you know I'm here in San Diego and we're watching each other on this computer but if we understand the non dual model, then the computer you me, the idea that I'm in North Carolina, that I'm in San Diego that this is an iPhone. These are all models for a wholeness in which everything is instantly correlated with everything else so even though we are experiencing ourselves as local right now. In reality there's no experience that is not processed in awareness of consciousness awareness doesn't have a form so every experience is already happening non locally. It's the artifact of locality that we have to question that trick, the perceptual trick that says you're there I'm here. And this is what we are having problems with the ultimately between science and spirituality you know this morning I opened my news and the three Nobel prizes have all gone to physicists like. Dr. and you know what's his name that Alan aspect people who talked about entanglement and you know they're still struggling with a time sign called it's spooky action at a distance. But you know look at any biological organism right now as I'm speaking to you. The fact of speaking is changing my metabolism, changing my heart rate variability changing everything that's going on and it's all happening simultaneously. It's not like you know I'm. So this biological organism, I think behaves non locally everything is correlated by with everything else. My digestion my blood pressure my heart rate, my autonomic nervous system self regulation endocrine system immune system. So you know when you tickle the universe here and laughs over there simultaneously. It's not because there's spooky action at a distance. It's because it's one giant infinite organism that we are a part of and we in fact represent holo graphically as a whole movement, the totality of it all. So there is no spooky action at a distance even David bomb and he's talking to Krishna Moorthy or later he was explaining the implicate explicate order. He gave the example of a fish in a tank you know and the, the, if you're facing the tank from the side where the head is facing the tank. If you're facing the tank from where the tail moves, then you see the tail move and you know if somebody is looking from here and can't see what's happening in between. It's puzzled you know every time the tail moves the head moves every time the head moves the tail moves. It's one fish one organism, and every cell represents the totality of it all as that movement the very fact that we think in terms of parts. There are no parts there only patterns of movement of the whole. So once we change that and you know I see these brilliant scientists struggling with this right now because they actually believe that there is a substance called matter. You know there is a substance called physical stuff, but who's found a substance called physical stuff I mean I look very hard for a physical stuff and all I can see is my own perceptions. That's all and my those are limited my perceptions give me this experience. If I just replace the word object with the experience. There's no problem there's no hard problem experiences perceptual activity. This is actually an aspect of me. Please comment. I'll do my best. Well, yes, indeed I mean it's, it's, it is a paradox to the mind. It's a paradox to how the mind operates in the minds capabilities, and also I think sets up to the limitations of the mind. I mentioned scientists earlier made me think of Rupert Sheldrake's book science set free he published that a few years ago, perhaps an idea the book I've just published is set scientists free. And once a scientist, anyone has a transcendental experience where they're residing more on the level of awareness itself, all the kinds of questions that we're speaking about that scientists struggle with really become resolved at least on a personal experience. It's always settled. And then yes, I think it remains a question well, how much do we want to then explored on a scientific level how is it that even though I am the totality of consciousness, and as you're holding your phone, or the moon or the stars. It's all that it's all me, but how is this running, how does it look to be that and not this. I guess that's part of the play and display of creation we those of us who want to go that direction can those of us who want to just listen to music. I'm not a physicist by training so I don't I don't go there per se but for me, experientially, it's just all one. And there's no way around it. So, exactly. And here is the other problem that I see with current science I think one of the reasons for writing these books. And, you know, once again, I congratulate you for for actually having a diverse group of people that you spoke to here. One of the reasons to read this book is to question the very premises of science, you know, which is based on what we call naive or representational realism, you know that there's a world independent of our experience of it. How do we know that. I mean, how would we ever prove a world independent of our own experience of it and our own experience of it is limited to a narrow bandwidth of perceptual activity. And so, if we expanded science to include the nature of the observer. It would be a better science. I think it would be a whole system science. Do you think that's where science needs to go right now. Totally and completely I'd say that's a that's a foundational message of the book that science, scientism which you've spoken about a lot and all the atheistic materialistic scientists. Science as it's practice now fosters separation, it fosters duality, and scientists can eliminate that perception in their own life and I share the stories. Then their scientific work can begin to reflect that and we can transform science into more of a tool for investigating from the premise that all is one we are that that is that. And I, and that'll help avoid a lot of the things science gets into that gets us into trouble. At least how we use certain things that science creates and you've spoken about that over the years so much we've created all these weapons and devices we've destroyed the environment, because it's all separate and the other person on the other side of the hemisphere separate the nature separate coming into the unit of which science could put much of its resources to show us that and support it. We can transform world that that's a message of the book also. So, science, being based on subject object split, which is how we do it right now, the rest of the universe. Science based on subject object split gives permission, I think, for scientists to participate in what I would call diabolical science nuclear weapons cyber warfare war terrorism, poison in the food chain extinction of species. In a sustainable planet, would you agree these are actually gifts of science the problems we're trying to solve right now scientifically, including, you know, the climate change were actually created by the misuse of science, I would say or inappropriate use of science through the conscious use of science through the condition separate mind. If we evolved to a whole system science, perhaps we would take the very technologies we are capable of inventing to create a more peaceful just sustainable and joyful world. That's my belief and that's what I've seen the scientists who are in a book, as they transform their own consciousness the nature of their work, and how they approached it began to change. And I agree with you most scientists to live in this dualistic world. They're just creating things because they can. So, I lived in San Diego many years the big corporation there is Qualcomm electronics, Wi Fi. I remember being at a party one evening with some of the engineers and they were going to the next step of Wi Fi, the incremental power. And I said that's amazing. And I said, Have you been testing how it's going to affect our biological system and our energy system is that no, we don't care about that we just want to make it. So this is this is this is that this is a separation there's no sense of, I don't know how it's going to affect living creatures including humans but we just want to get it out there, because we can. There are two sorts of approaches, I believe would change, because the separation that is gone. I've been speaking to Dr Paul Mills. He's the author of science being and becoming the spiritual lives of scientists. These chapters here, the need to transform materialist science, heeding the call the making of a spiritual scientist consciousness evolves towards wholeness and unity guest chapter written by Robert Atkinson mentors and other allies from trials to commitment and transformation, giving back and the next generation. And then, even as Alexander advice to scientists thinking of pursuing the journey and putting into perspective the consciousness development journey, and many other very useful insights. So once again, congratulations on the book and what do you hope this will help our the next generation of scientists as well right to rethink the real purpose of science is to maybe create a better experience, the better human experience alleviates suffering ultimately should be the gift of science. All that. Yes, Deepak and also just alleviating the suffering within scientists themselves who are stuck in this dualistic belief system, and who have had to suppress their own inner life as a result of the careers they've chosen. You were just mentioning the names of the chapters and much of the chapter is written along the so called monomyth model, Joseph Campbell called it the hero's journey because when I was interviewing the scientists and getting a sense of their life course, much of the main features of what they had been through so beautifully fit with this idea of the monomyth, the life journey that each of us is on and the, and the challenges to struggles heeding the calls transformations giving back and gifts and so forth. And you'll also noticed I've woven a lot of Mauritius teachings in there because they were deeply impactful for me. For me, yes. Yeah. Well you talk about your own journey and very eloquently you talk about also your wife's journey Tiffany Borsotti. Tell us a little bit about what she she's a medical intuitive right. How does that work. Yeah, so to thank you deep box so Tiffany is a few scientists I interviewed in the book who, when they were young, you know, five six seven eight had the so called Claire's clairvoyance Claire audience Claire cognition So, in addition to perceiving what most people perceive as far as the material world, they were looking into the spiritual world to various degrees seeing the, the bio, the bioenergy the chakras, maybe deceased family members and others. And for some that was extremely stressful because they didn't know how to manage this dual perception, particularly if they were living in a family where people said oh that's your imagination to ignore that. But yet they knew there was truth to it. So Tiffany fell into the first category where she did not have the kind of support she needed. So eventually she consciously just shut those down until she was an adult again and then turn them back on. And that's what she uses for her medical intuition. There were two others in the book who have the same gifts as a child, but they were very fortunate. They lived in families where for the most part it was supported. They had a social familiar context to understand the gifts, understand what they were perceiving it what it meant for them as far as their own identity. And that, and those instances, those gifts set them on the course of being a scientist because they wanted to understand what is all this really about. I'm seeing all this energy here and I'm seeing this table and what's what and what's real and what isn't. And that's a beautiful story. I will add one one more story about the Claire's and this is fascinating. One of the people I interviewed Melinda Connor. She had high psychic abilities clairvoyance clairaudience when she was a child. Now her mother was not supportive of it, but her grandmother was because she had the same gifts so her grandmother eventually helped cultivate it for her, but her mother was a psychiatrist. And when she was a young girl she said to her mom, Hey, I can read your thoughts. And her mom said, No, that's impossible. No, you can't. So she went on to read her thoughts over the course of minutes and nailing them perfectly. The next day the mother said you're coming to work with me. And she took young Melinda to work sat her in the hallway outside of this room, and Melinda sat there for a few hours and during this couple of hours, she would see some people being escorted into the room. And maybe 15, 20 minutes later, they would ask BS courted out. And she was perceiving what happened and on a bio energetic scale. Their bio fields were completely distorted their sense of self. Something was going on in that room that was really harsh and harmful to these people. After several hours and Melinda sitting there getting more and more distressed, her mother comes out and sits down. Well, it turns out that was the ECT room. Electro convulsive therapy. And her mother said, Melinda, this is what happens to people who hear other people's thoughts. Oh my God. Yeah, so it's a dramatic statement. I don't want you to even talk about this anymore. That's basically what her mother was saying. Just forget it, bury those abilities. But as I said, luckily her grandmother had the abilities to and nurtured and cultivated them for her. Amazing. You and I also met this young boy Akhil. I know the autism. Can you share a little bit about him? Akhil, he's one of these savants. He has he's a he's an autistic child. He's a savant in the domain of numbers and physics, mathematics. And Deepak and I went and visited him at his home years ago with his parents. And we did some research with him because he's highly psychic and telepathic and he and his mom basically communicate psychically, telepathically, they don't need to use words. And he's been getting older doing better in school. We saw them maybe a year ago, actually, Deepak. Does he still have those abilities? He does very much so. Amazing. He has people with these abilities, but I think due to our scientific materialistic society, they're poo pooed, ignored, and then people who have them suffer with them because they don't have a perspective and support. And those who don't have them aren't given leeway to develop that natural part of our own being. And we need to resolve that. The book is called science being and becoming the spiritual lives of scientists, authors Paul J Mills PhD professor, University of San Diego, esteemed colleague and teacher. Well, thank you very much and all the best with the book. And I hope to see you again we'll be resuming stages and scientists I hope soon. And all is good. Thank you.