 Aloha and welcome to Cooper Union. It's an exciting day as we're looking at United Nations Day which was most recently celebrated. And we're also on the eve of Glasgow for the Globe. Today we'll be looking at the human rights measurement in text, sharing what we are and what to do next. And it's exciting to be looking at measuring human rights in Oceania, the Pacific movement to protect Moana Nuiakea. I'm so honored to have two young, amazing activists with me here today from Kanaki in Nicaledonia as well as Aotearoa, New Zealand. Thank you both for joining us. How are you doing today? Charm. Kia ora Josh. Thank you for having us both here today. Calling from a lockdown in Tamaki, Makoto and Aotearoa. So been about 70 something days now. So yeah, it's been tough for everybody but this is the best thing for us right now. Thank you Charm and it is true. Health is a human right and it's important. And I remember many times talking with you and I'd be walking in a mask and you'd be like, you're still wearing masks. So the world does ebb and flow like the beautiful ocean that we live in and we hope you'll be out of lockdown soon and also be able to be free and enjoying that health as a human right. And Yolene, you're calling and talking with us from Kanaki, New Caledonia. How are things there and what are you doing today? Yes, hello, thank you Joshua for the invitation. Doing pretty fine. Also in a lockdown in New Caledonia, we found ourselves in such a particular moment in history and for the country also. And I'm keeping asking myself if we're in a state of recovery or transformation while we're addressing all our challenges as a whole where our fundamental rights that's truly for indigenous peoples in our myriads of island nations to I'm a justice also and sustainable development. But yeah, other than that, everything is going perfectly. That is good. Char, I'll start with you. Can you share with us the major human rights challenges and concerns as well as the obstacles but also the opportunities with human rights in Aotearoa today? Kia ora Josh. So at the moment, there's a lot going on. So first I just wanna make it clear I'll be presenting in my personal capacity. So from a Ngati Waititi perspective that's my tribe that I'm from in New Zealand. There's a lot of issues around Tino Rangatidatanga at the moment. So that's self-determination. And at the moment in New Zealand the government is working towards a national action plan on implementation on the declaration or the United Nations declaration on the rights of indigenous peoples. Engagements are just about to start with that. And again, in relation to the environment and issues around that that we when we're looking at these different human rights it's really important that consultation is done properly. So it's not just about doing a tip box and getting a tribe like mine on the board. It's actually involving us from the start of a co-couple or I'm sorry, what's the translation? Like the start of work. So for example, we do a lot of work around resource consent. So with the local council where my tribe is in we've been working to be part of the long-term plans and ensuring that we are sharing our views around water quality and things like that. So it's not just us sitting at the table. It's our whakapapa link, which is our genealogical link. So when we're deciding on how to be involved in co-papa or your different issues it's how is it going to impinge on Ngati Waitere rights? What is that? What's going to be caused to our genealogy by the work that might be done? And if there are issues around it how can we work with councils or other bodies to get a good outcome for everybody? And again, it's just reiterating that human right to self-determination. So if you're looking at the articles in UNDRIP and specifically article three, so that's self-determination, and also protecting our environments, that article 29. And in particular looking at UNDRIP action plan it's also the blueprint honoring Tititi or Waitangi which is the treaty that was signed between Maori Whangatira, which are the chiefs and the Crown back in 1840. And so for us in Aotearoa on a wider perspective the action plan is the blueprint to having those obligations honoured by the government. So that's kind of what's going on at the moment and a very brief nutshell. Thank you so much. And you know Ranga, Tiratanga, I mean self-determination is the most important aspect and that definitely is important as we'll move into Kanaki. You also talked about free, prior and informed consent, which is mentioned six times in the UN Declaration of the Rights of Indigenous People. All that is absolutely essential as we look at going forward. And really I love and appreciate you bringing up the individual but also the collective right and understanding those in that holistic perspective. Moving over the sailing Arvaka over to Kanaki. Yolien, can you share with us some of those important human rights issues taking place now in Kanaki? And very much of course, self-determination is on the forefront but many other things exist as well. Yes, sure. In terms of the unique human rights aspect in New Caledonia, strongly sense that we should look at, we're really in a great period of creative advocacy and a strongly sense that we should look at the strategy for utilizing this open door that was the public consultation made twice of the civil society this year by the state and initiated for the next steps for societal progress in New Caledonia. And this is a great initiative that must not remain in vain and fade away in the long run. So I think that this wave of interest towards the civil society should be analyzed to determine the image at work we need to start on now. And as after a long hiatus in the peaceful era of the new chords, which is ending and yeah, using this creative method to explore our social issues and explain the complex concept to engage our people more on an emotional level. And it is a great way for us to explore issues that may be difficult to discuss in an open manner and create a safe environment for the civil society and indigenous peoples in general to voice their thoughts and feelings. And that has been the tradition that has always been a peacemaker. And with this spirit in New Caledonia, we understood very early on the meaning and the interest of managing together in partnership, especially in the frontline issues. And what I sense in the actual ambience in the country is that we're aiming to making a difference at a time when the Indo-Pacific access matters more for our governments and for geopolitical reasons of global governance. And in these spaces that we exist in with this other layer as indigenous peoples, we have to constantly explain why we are different. But overall, I want to bring back the question on why we're the same. What is the thing that we share in common? We share the same values in building the quality of life for our communities in New Caledonia and showing that we're all allowed to show up authentically and showing that we can show up and fight for our land, for our people. And this is possible through different ways by establishing a culture of human rights still in New Caledonia and engaging our partnership systems and connecting our advocacy with our own cultural values. So I can develop more on that later on if you will. Oh, no, it's excellent. And it's really, you've summarized it, the authenticity of the creative advocacy moment we find ourselves in. There's our urgency, but also the agency where you can be involved and have a huge impact. And I really want to thank you both also for the historical context because with the historical context, what you're showing is what's possible and what we are facing today. And you're looking at processes for peace and human rights from that long-term perspective. So I really want to thank you both. Charm, you mentioned the Treaty of Waitangi. We know that was 1840 in early February, but you maybe share how that process has moved forward. And then of course, you'll lean afterwards. Can you share about the other accords and where you're at in that process for those important votes on self-determination? Charm? Kia ora for the question. So for those of you who aren't aware of what the Treaty of Waitangi is, its certitivity of Waitangi was signed between the Crown and Māori rangatira chiefs back in 1840. And essentially what that document said was Māori rangatapenoa of the land will govern their people and the Crown will govern their people. So we gave all people coming here the right to be able to set up and establish themselves, but we retained our tīnā rangatī to tongue our self-determination. And as years have gone by, it's been the English version which has had more precedents. We've had cases like we in Pārata, where it's a famous case where Judge Prentikas will be a Treaty as a nullity, which is really upsetting for coming to Māori people, but essentially the point that I emphasise is since those kinds of decisions have been, or those determinations have been said, that's kind of the attitude that the government has taken towards tītiti or Waitangi. However, it's really positive at the moment. There is a huge appetite, not only within the government, but other organisations to do things in a tītiti-based manner. So if we look at the Mātiki and Māori report that was written by Moana Jackson and Professor Margot Mitu, there is a model called a relational sphere. So it's essentially, we've got the Māori sphere of the rangatira or the chiefs, and then you have the government, but a picture of them diagram, and then in the middle, it's the area that we work together. So there's a lot more approaches within the government trying to adopt that model so that there is equal power sharing between the two. And by doing that way, it actually is honouring the tītiti or Waitangi. And so at the moment, there are things like the National Action Plan Against Racism, where these types of methodologies are trying to be implemented, and a lot of work with the National Ewi Chairs Forum, which are the highest body of Māori representatives for different tribes. And so I think the importance there is an appetite. There's still a long way to go, but it requires government and other organisations to step out of the usual business of way of doing things. And I think there is also that fear. It's like, well, if we give indigenous people that equal power, what does that give to us? I think it's just about people being comfortable to be uncomfortable and to try things in a different approach. Oh, that's so well summarised. And it goes back historically. I remember also a tītiti who did pull up all the government fears that were trying to demarcate the land and saying he took out the post and implanted seeds and he said he would share the food but that no one could own the land. So it's always been the settler's decides that having quite comprehended the rich heritage and knowledge of indigenous peoples and that spirituality plus also genuine connection with the earth, with the aina. So it's great that you brought that up but I loved also your double spears and putting that together because then it clearly defines there are certain things of self-determination that Māori should just have full ability to exercise and that's been denied. So it's getting back to those aspects and that's a big part of the human rights measurement index. And then you'll lean, that allows us to shift over. There's been a couple of accords that have happened over time with France trying to exercise some elements of these human rights themes of decolonization. Could you share with us maybe the highlights of what has happened? And then I know there's an important date coming up as well in November potentially if that referendum will go forward with COVID but could you share people how the amazing finaki from Jean-Marie Gibaou and others have brought forward that vision of the land and exercise self-determination but make sure that human rights are promoted and protected. You'll lean. Yeah, sure. With the heavy lifting work that had been done by our predecessor and notable Mr. Jean-Marie Gibaou we're in a period when we have to decide on our self-determination so the third referendum will be held on the 12th of December if there is much change from the state regarding those dates and regarding also the sanitary crisis in New Colonia. But when establishing this culture of human rights in New Colonia and towards this movement towards our self-determination there is an important role we have to play to promote and protect the rights and our dignity as a people and especially Kanak in this country wants to go in the right direction and it is going in the right direction I would say but there's still a lot of understandings about human rights and it seems like in our mind we have the concept but we still need the proper studies or the proper public consultations with the customary authorities with the society again and more thorough consultation like that has been done and trade unions also and so on and we have to draw a guideline towards that kind of governance of this culture of human rights and this would be successful I guess if at the early stages of the development there is confidence that our government and the many partners lining up have to provide leadership very essential that there is no question of any political agenda especially during this time in the country when we're heading towards this third referendum on self-determination and this movement is basically helping our people being better human beings accepting to build relationships with organizations like our local NGOs, community organizations and institutions and making them really effective and that is what we need to work with a wide range of organizations and it will secure our resources and with those resources we'll strengthen the relationships with the communities and it'll show that the core issues of indigenous peoples are really under good leadership coordinated advocacy for the rights of the communities also in general because it's another point is that the community awareness to collaborate for inclusion must totally be addressed with ocean-striving positive changes being a multi-ethnic country with also Polynesians, Wallachians, New Cali especially by making a national report for instance that could shed light on to some of the stuff that's happening in the country for all the communities living together here and I think that's an alternative way to be given for us because nobody wants to be the centerpiece of complaint when you have so much going on and what I'm striving for is to have backups and here I'm talking about civil society working in an NGO, NGO and supporting work for consultations with the people in their homes so that will be quite difficult now with the sanitary crisis but eventually there will be people wanting to talk about the matters that affect us, affect them and we're here actually to give them access to this information and helping out on resolving whatever maybe and what's in it you know it's building a strong human rights culture in New Caledonia first by attacking some sort of confusion that this could be not useful and that was the mindset not so long ago before all the public consultation so we invest our efforts in something that has meaning for us, our advocacy and how it tackles some injustice and strengthen our local culture So thank you so much and it allows us to look at the human rights measurement index that was just reported how do you think they did it noting the human rights record for your country in Aotearoa, New Zealand as well as Kanaki and maybe you could share some of the highlights that were raised that you think are very important and some next steps to really promote and protect human rights in Aotearoa, Charm? Yeah so looking at the findings on that we have a huge housing crisis first of all in Aotearoa there are a lot of people who don't have access to homes or land or anything like that and in particular the case for Tangata whenua or Māori is even more dire and really that relates back to you know all of the processes that colonisation has impacted on my people I know that there are a lot of movements by different tribes and the government working together to ensure that more opportunities become available to Māori people to whether that's becoming first home buyers or mucids trying to work around that but again it goes back to you know if you look at the land and the land is unhealthy then your people are unhealthy and it's so unfortunately the issues impacting Tangata whenua they're so intersectional so it's our health systems our education systems justice system they all play a part in that and they keep putting us at the system disadvantage and so when we talk about you know the findings are it's particularly around housing it's not just a one method approach it's a whole systematic approach that needs to be undertaken and so I guess just growing on from what my tribe is doing they're actively involved in things like the restoration of wetlands because the wetlands like our kidneys right and they keep us going and so us we're doing a lot of work around that at the moment and just trying to ensure that we're part of that and I guess like if you look at Ngāti Waitere that's how that's my tribe we have had so much happen to us and we're still at the stages of trying to form our own entity so that we can finish our negotiations to get our land back and things like that so from a personal perspective that's what we're doing but I do know that there's other things going on no government policy wise to try and encourage more greater home ownership well that is exactly what we're looking at and you pointed out something of course if the land is healthy then the people are healthy and so the decolonization question is linked to all human rights so I really love that holistic perspective and the other side then that relates to where we're headed George we're on the eve of Glasgow you talked about the wetlands and that's important with biological diversity and of course also your people would be more knowledgeable about how to care for the lands after centuries of course of taking care of them so can you share a little bit more about some other environmental issues or issues related to climate justice that are at the forefront so one of the issues that we're having at the moment so we have a river called the Waikato River and there's like obviously climate change is terrible everywhere but along the banks of the river we used to have harsh sites for like where we all used to congregate and live but with colonization and the cities like they were destroyed but we'd have a lot of artifacts that are still there but with climate change it's been I'm not a science expert but the land has been degrading and things have been coming out and so with that we've had people picking up our Tonga or our sacred objects and that has become like a huge issue and that's like some city councils in the legislation if they are carbon dated to a specific date well then that should go in like a museum and so one of the things we've been really really stringent on well is if that is a white-air artifact that comes to us and we determine what then happens with that artifact and it's that whole decolonization process but being very strong and that and all of these issues are linked to climate change and so I personally worry about throughout New Zealand how many of these kinds of similar situations happening and people going around the fossil king and unfortunately because of the impact of climate change I think we're going to see like a heavier issue with these kinds of situations yeah different perspective on that but still very valid absolutely and it connects so much also there is that model of Wanganui with the river and your point that you brought up earlier where people don't have to be afraid because in the beginning it was equal equal in the management and then now Maori have an extra vote and the river didn't dry up the river didn't stop flowing the world still exists so making sure that Maori rights are recognized actually only strengthens the entire country yeah and I think that's something that probably not a lot of people in our country realize and some there are rivers that now have their own legal entity and like for us we see that the the river like many other indigenous nations around the world that is a living ancestor for us and as such we treat it like that and so when you have people going and taking these artifacts that are so precious to us that should you know stay in the land it's those kinds of issues that are going to come around more with the impact of climate change it's scary yeah and it's it's that understanding of a living ancestor Yolene I know you were at top 25 in Madrid what are some of the issues you're looking at going forward and how do those issues relate of course to what's happening Kanaki on the ground on climate justice yes so when I was in top 25 this was for me great experience and so where I was in constant learning from each other and I realized there that our problems are not that different from others because we have some serious violation in the pacific also that need to be addressed and it's really important in my eyes and it's quite necessary to have precisely to this polyphony international polyphony so that we understand the approaches and the perceptions for each country's and its people and see it's so important to hear and it's well well shown in the in the right share for new Kaladonia and the results like new Kaladonia on the way we measure the human rights requirements by going straight to the human rights advocate and asking them to let to let them know how their government are doing in terms of you know meeting their human rights performances and also in terms of the climate change and we don't with the result that has been done this year in new Kaladonia we're not that vulnerable but I mean in terms of the the demarcation the process the process just to have the data disaggregated you guys know that in the environment we live in everything has to be qualitative as well so everything has to be empirical and for you to even for us to even make sense of that so when we see those numbers that's when we need to do this data aggregation when we advocate to our institutions and look at the specific need of our community and especially in the the challenges we're experiencing with the the environmental crisis and yeah well thank you and we're looking today at the importance of the human rights measurement index and then at COP we'll have the nationally determined contributions and so all these pieces come together so that we can have a holistic perspective of the way forward to promote and protect human rights as well as our planet I know we're close to time I want to thank both of you for taking time out of your busy activists and advocate schedules doing the important work on the ground but I know you're both also very active at the global level and look hope and forward to seeing you again in the very near future when you are out of lockdown and we're both enjoying liberty and promoting human rights together Mahalo Nui