 5 p.m. on a given Thursday here in Honolulu. And we're talking to our old friend, Kartiki Mishra in Varanasi, India, which is not too far from the northern border and the northeastern border of India. And he's a student there. I think he's still a student. When are you gonna graduate already? Kartiki, you should be graduating. Well, exams are there in March. So after exams, one semester still left. So a semester is left in my graduation. Okay, yeah, he's a business student, but he follows everything in the world and we follow him. Okay, and Kartiki, we haven't talked for a while. There's a lot to compare notes about. I'm really interested in your thoughts, your reactions, and the thoughts and reactions of other Indian people that you deal with about what's going on. And the first thing that caught my eye, of course, was the farmer's protest in India. You got hundreds of thousands of farmers. I don't know if it's still going on, but it was a couple of days ago where they're out of the roads and they're protesting the lack of what farm supports that Narendra Modi has put in place. Can you talk about it? Yeah, yeah, definitely. The protest is about three bills which now have been passed and have become acts. And these three bills were something these farmers were concerned about. The first bill was about the, how the government procured this wheat or this grains from the farmers. The second bill was about the minimum price which the government used to pay to the farmers. And the third bill was for the hoarding of the commodities. So these were three bills or issue of contention. And past two months, these protests were going on peacefully. But I think that this can be solved through dialogue. Government has gone through 11 rounds of dialogues with the farmers and yet there is no solution but I seriously hope that a peaceful way we can solve that. And unfortunately, few of these people, I won't call them protesters. I won't call them farmers, went to the Red Fort and did something they should not do. The protest, what was, people back then became violent and these people are not protesters. I don't have any sympathy with them. I have my sympathy with farmers but not with the people who made a show on Red Fort. So that was very unfortunate. Well, now that was, let's break that down a little bit. The farmers, were they right? When they started protesting, they were complaining about the lack of supports for farmers, which we have in this country too. But Narendra Modi wanted to make it a free market. You're a business student. So you probably have an opinion about whether that would make a free market and whether a free market and agriculture would be a good idea for agriculture in India. What do you think about that? Like what I personally believe that at some point, some of the issues of the farmers, what they were talking about were right. Yes, everyone can have some concern, have some issues with the village. But what I personally think about the village that free market, you bring a partial type of free market or these reforms were basically for benefit of farmers. But the thing is free market brings a lot of challenge. Like a government is there to support, but when you make a market free, so the things are on their own, the supply and demand decide everything. So this is the concern of the farmers that if the privatization happens or the private companies are involved in this sector, there could be problems or crisis about oligopoly or a monopoly which companies can have. So this is the concern, but farmers are. But my personal case that the kind of reforms are needed to raise the agricultural income, some reforms are needed. So we want a middle path where reforms can be also possible and farmers can also agree. So why did Dorendra Modi put these changes in place what was he seeking to do? How does he feel that these changes would benefit the country? Well, these bills talk about he like they were systems in 1970s according to the formula which made that key in case procurement of wheat or commodities could be directly done through government and that wheat was then circulated throughout the country. And a minimum price was paid to the farmers obviously that like per quintile, this was the sum of what it was that's the price from the side of the government before the procurement. So the thing is, Modi government wanted to turn this into a private market like there will be MSP there will be no change he assured but the people of the farmers were not agreeing on that because they didn't have that trust that if private sector is involved why government would regulate the prices? So this was the type of concern they had. Now, this wasn't all over India once. What happened? Was that? Yeah, one minute, one minute, let's complete. These bills were kind of good. If you look in a large perspective in the bigger picture these bills are good, I personally believe that but I think the few of the concerns of farmers are right that how you can regulate these prices in the free market. There are few concerns but I overall see this bill in a positive way. That's my view. Okay, now this took place, this has taken place the protest in only one area of India I forget the name of the area and then it's spread. Is that what happened? And how many farmers, how many people are involved in the protest? I think 37 farmer leaders are there in this whole stuff while what is going on. So 37 farmer means 37 small unions and committees of who are leaders of farmers. So you can imagine a lot number of people are involved. So if the system what I talked about that the Mandi system and the MSE these were mostly done in the northern states of Punjab and Haryana and these states benefited from them. These laws were kind of good for them. So but the thing is when these laws change the stuff the there are some issues for the farmers which they bring up. Like how state or the central government can decide this whole of this stuff. And there was a lot of tension between the government itself. A collision party was there which left the collision or the left the alliance because of this bill. What I think a middle way is possible. I personally hope that a middle way is possible on this bill. So what is the middle way that you feel would work? Well, suspend the bill for a few years. Suspend the bill for a few years. Stop with farmers that what are the issues they need to resolve. And then all the suggestions are taken into consideration. Implement those suggestions into that bill and then again pass it. The farmers are demanding that repeal the bills right now. This is their demand. And the government is saying that we won't repeal the bill. We will just rectify the bill. You can understand that. We will amend the bills through the parliament but we won't repeal this. And this is the point of contention that farmers are not ready to accept anything less than repealing the laws. And the government is they're talking about rectification. A deadlock kind of situation is there. And that is the way I think we must suspend the bill for a few years. Government also said that suspend the bill and talk about the bill. After that, we can see it. That's the most possible way we can find this solution to this bill. How long has the protest been going on? 65 years, two months. Oh, two months. Has it been a peaceful protest? Yeah, till 26th of January, it was very peaceful. Everyone had to agree. But what happened on 26th of January changed a lot of views on this particular thing. Now, you can you describe the Republic Day? Cardi C, can you describe Republic Day? That was the 26th. What is that in India? Well, India became independent in 1947. So we made our constitution in 1945. The 19th constitution was complete and we implemented that constitution on 26th of January, 1950. We made a republic on that particular day. To celebrate that occasion, we celebrate this republic day on every 26th of January. So on 26th of January, this all stuff of violence happened. The thing was that the government, the farmers were asking for the protests in Delhi. Firstly, they were on the suburban regions and the outskirts of Delhi. But they wish that on 26th, that they will do some kind of protest in Delhi, government allowed it. As it is a democracy, government allowed it. But some of the people who didn't have well-intentioned became the part of this. And I personally believe they are not farmers. Those 100 problems and they took over this protest and turned it into whole violence. 400 people were wounded. No one was dead. Thankfully, I'm very glad that police also showed the strength and the storm into Red Falls. You can see that iconic building in India most of the times. And a few of the people raised a flag, a religious flag, I don't want to take the name of that community. So this was the whole issue. That a protest is only supported when it follows the peaceful way. When it becomes anti-national or it tries to become something against the nation, people don't support it. As a democracy, I allow protests and I believe that everyone has the right. But no one has the right to commit into violence and speaking against the nation or anything. So in the Red Fort, what are the protesters there? These questionable protesters, what are they seeking? What are they demanding? What do they want? Well, they weren't demanding. The protesters on the prior hand on 25th agreed that they will peacefully protest in Delhi. They will do a tractor rally that they will sit on tractors and do a rally kind of thing. But some of these people who were, I think, not part of this or who were kind of, I should say, belonging to some political ideology, turned into violence and they stormed the Red Fort. It was not their designated area of protest. You can understand that. They broke that code, broke that agreement and they stormed the Red Fort. And after storming that Red Fort, they raised that flag on it and everything else they did, 400 people were wounded. But the thing is that somehow things are under control and now things are looking good that we can do stuff that I personally believe that we can control the situation. And Republic Day, you can understand that it's a kind of celebration, like you have 4th of July. It's a kind of celebration and something like that happens on that particular day, the unfortunate, I think. So that was the whole of it. That's my take on that. And I personally say it again, that I have sympathy for farmers, but what people did on Red Fort, I have no sympathy for them. Well, I'm just trying to, you know, figure out how that works in India. Would you say that people in India are generally patriotic? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everyone is patriotic. And every single community, not just one, every single person, like belonging to religion, belonging to the world. It's not like that key, things don't work that way. Now, these special protesters, these aggravated protesters at the Red Fort, were they taking steps to try to bring the government down? What exactly did they have in mind and what did they want to achieve by taking over the Red Fort? Well, like you can say now, trampling the symbols of democracy was something I would like to interpret it as. I won't say it was a coup against the government, but it's simply a kind of trampling the democracy. Red Fort is the place where the Prime Minister keeps speeches on every independence day. That's 15th of August. So it's a kind of symbol of democracy. Only national flag is allowed there. Protesters kind of placed the flag parallel to the national flag. I won't take the name, but it was kind of hurting the sentiments of people across India because that's not something acceptable that you can't place a flag of some other nation or some other person in Capitol Hill. That's the way that how people interpreted it as. People not simply as much, but I personally think so. You say that 400 people were hurt. Who hurt them? Were there two factions here protesting against each other? No, these 400 people were policemen who were trying to make things or take the situation under control. And the people who attacked were these protesters. I should say so-called farmers. I won't have anything simply for this. These old farmers took some violent actions. They started attacking police and everything, but police showed a lot of restraint towards farmers and no one was hurt from their side. It was police that actually got hurt. So what the big question for me, Kortaki, is this was 10 days, just 10 days, a little more than a week after the United States had the insurrection in its national Capitol building. Do you think that the insurrection in the United States somehow generated the protest in the Red Fort? I don't know what mentality of the protesters had, what they were thinking. But when I looked at the whole incident happening back for something I got reminded of, that it was similarly looking to what happened in U.S. capitals. Like, you can understand how what people, like how worried it would be that something, a symbol of democracy has been trampled upon in the name of protest. This is something not acceptable. That's my view on this. How does the rest of the country feel about it? I guess from what you say that most people in India do not approve of what happened of the protest at Red Fort. Exactly, exactly. Most of the people supported the farmers because they were peaceful and protested right in a demo, in any great democracy. You have right to see, you have right to protest. So these farmers, and I also have sympathy for them. That's their protest. I'm with them. They are the people. They are my brothers. They are my brothers. They're like countrymen. But what happened on Red Fort, kind of I should say, furnished the image of this whole protest. The protest which was peaceful turned into something anti-national, at least that's the image, what was formed. And a lot of people started now speaking against it. There are protesters still outside Delhi. There are we no such, I should say, removal of these protesters from outside Delhi. There are protesters outside, but the thing is that people have changed their views on it. Now, people are slightly turning their views because in these protestors, there are some people who are with anti-national and I have different thinking apart from the court. So, did the farmers go home? No, they're still there. Still there. They're still outside Delhi and I personally hope that situation gets resolved evenly and I hope that because I have sympathy for farmers, but they have to distinguish between people who are not with them, who kind of did some act. So, that's the thing. Yeah. Did the government arrest anyone? Is there anyone in jail over what happened at Red Fort? The 33 FIRs are there, I basically believe. The 33 FIRs are there against farmer leaders. Kind of, I should say, directly or indirectly involved. I don't know the name of every single person, but the thing is that government is trying to hold someone accountable that who was that person that who did all that stuff on Red Fort. And the thing is, it is now getting a bit complicated. So, I would like to speak less on that. Okay. Well, let me go back. Let me see the government and between the farmers. I hope. Continue. Let me go back and ask you about something that you and I have touched on before. And that is what the people in India, what you feel, what they feel, what is the general feeling about Trump? And, of course, we had, I'm sure everybody in the world knows, an election on November 3rd that Trump did not agree with. And he claimed that he won, even though all the certified ballots showed that Joe Biden won. And then he took many, many steps to try to overturn that election. And the Republicans, members of the Republican Party, Hither and Yon all over the country joined with him in his attempts to overturn the election. And then that culminated in the January 6th insurrection at the Capitol. And I wonder how you feel about that because, you know, India is a democracy. We treasure all democracies. And I know that you and everybody really in India treasures the notion of democracy. It's a wonderful thing that we share with you. But I wonder how you feel about what happened with Trump and his actions to contest an election where he lost. That was very unfortunate thing. Like you can say that U.S. is kind of a symbol of democracy in this world. That is being said, that being said, that U.S. is something who supports democracy. What happened on Capitol Hill, I should say vanished that whole notion of democracy in the United States. It was looking like a coup in the United States while people are trying to overthrow their own government. But that was the whole thing, that how something like that can happen in a developed nation like United States. It was looking like a coup in the Middle Eastern country or in a dictatorship. You can imagine that the images of Capitol Hill, people climbing on that and people were dead, five people were dead, I believe. So it was something very unacceptable that how this could happen in the United States. People were in awe. It's very unfortunate. And these were the sentiments that people had in India. That no matter how worse the situation is in India, after every election, no matter how the strong government is, the power which lost legitimately chooses to turn over the administrators to the next government and it keeps on happening. No such thing has happened in India. In past one such incident was, but after that since now, no such thing has happened. It was something that we are proud of, that as a democracy, we never showed any such immature behavior or such kind of behavior through these 70 years. So this is something that I can say probably that in my democracy, that stuff like this doesn't happen. So people in India generally feel, believe that Joe Biden was the winner and that Trump's claims were false. Exactly, on third, it was decided that Trump lost. It was very clear as that. And by December, it became clear that when the decisions of Georgia and other states were out that in every single state he has won that. But President Trump kept on insisting, or I should say former President Trump kept on insisting that he is the winner. So this behavior was not accepted and this is not seen positively in any single day. Democracy in India, in Japan, in Korea, in any single democracy, such kind of behavior is not acceptable, at least from the President. That to stay in power, how can someone fall so low that a kind of full situation happens in the US itself. I think it's the first time something like that happened in the US. Oh, sure. So now we have Biden and he's a, I'm sure you've seen him and heard what he has to say and following in the last week or so all his attempts that reverse some of the things, many of the things that Trump was doing. And you've seen his style. You've seen his cabinet people, because he lets them speak. I'm really interested in your feeling about him. He's different, obviously. He's 180 degrees different than Trump. How do you like him? What's your thought about him? Well, first of all, I would like to congratulate him that he became President and who Kamala had this as well. She became the President. So the thing is... It says something about the United States, doesn't it, Carnegie? It says something about the United States. We have Kamala Harris. That's an important point. Joe Biden is a very familiar person with... I think he has been Vice President and he has worked with him in past as well. So we have a knowledge that how Biden administration would work like. We have a kind of image you can see that we have some familiar sense with Biden. He was Vice President with President Obama and we have worked with him in past and that's my hope that current government is very willing to work with Mr. Biden and that's my hope that in future that we will have a lot of cooperation better than President Donald Trump. He was kind of a... You can say unstable, a bit unstable. Do you think that India... Do you think that India will have a better relationship with the United States under Biden? Well, on many issues, yes. That on issues of H-1B visa, the immigrants that we will have some coordination. I think we will have some coordination on oil as well that U.S. had in post sanctions on Iran and that was under President Trump. I think President Biden will relax that and there are many other issues that I think we will have normalization again with United States. Yes, every new administration brings up some challenge. So we have also something in mind that H-1B visa, that opinion of Biden government on China will decide many things that how politically we will work with United States because China is an issue. China is a major issue. So one thing I really want to ask you is this. You've seen people in India and you, we've talked a number of times, believe in democracy. It's important to you. You're proud of it. You're happy the way it works for you. People in general support it. This is one of the one of the world's great democracies, India, and it is sustainable. It keeps going and the transfer of power is done seamlessly and people are respectful and so forth. So now you've seen the United States go through a convulsion. You've seen a coup, essentially, attempted by our own president. You've seen our own citizens violate the heart of our government. And then you see this dramatic change between administrations where one administration does all these crazy things. The next one comes in, tries to fix it up. You see one administration is tearing up relationships in the world. Another one tries to fix them up. It doesn't suggest that the United States is as reliable as you thought. It's as constant. A partner as you thought. And I wonder, you know, how people feel. I mean, there was one writer in Ireland who said, the best word for it is pity. He pities the United States for all the trouble that it has had over the past couple, well, four years. And I wonder how people in India feel about that. Do they hold us in less regard now? Do they feel we are less reliable than we were? Do they feel that we are operating under an impediment that they hadn't noticed before? Well, yes, certainly that you talked about that. How unfortunate that was that something like a kind of who happened in the US. So after seeing all that turmoil, after seeing all that unstability this is the thing that in international politics, one thing became pretty clear. You can't rely on someone. The thing is that they could credit to my government quite now that this government worked with President Obama, this government somehow managed to work with Donald Trump successfully and this is the beauty of democracy, of mature democracy that no matter what kind of administration sits in, in the power whether in the United States or in India the ability of a democracy is to work together in no matter what kind of situation prevails in the world. So this is one thing which I think is the that such stuff and it certainly made some damage to the image of US but I am very hopeful that Biden administration will correct that. He will fix it, I hope so. I personally believe that Biden administration will be able to do that. Yes, I'm with you on that completely. I like to think that Biden administration was just an aberration. It is not what happened under him is not the real United States because we are moral and we care about our citizens and we want to do the right thing and we want to have a kind and gentle relationship with our government and we want our government to be kind and gentle with us and for a time we didn't have that. Maybe we will have that again. What I worry about is that democracy is fragile. It is tenuous. There isn't much of it going on in the world these days and we have to protect it and preserve it. We have to keep it and so I feel a kinship to India and other democracies and I worry for them and I guess is learn from what happened on January 6th so that it doesn't happen again anywhere else and it doesn't threaten any other democracies. That's why I'm concerned about what happened in your red fort on January 26th. How do you feel about that? Generally red fort incident was kind of protest. It was not turning the over front to government. It's very fortunate that this single government was no matter how strong or weak they were they respected the thing that they have lost their election or they have won the election and they kind of accepted this whole scenario as we mandate from the people that people are not willing to have them as a leader. In 2024 if the prime minister Modi goes out of power if that happens he will also gradually accept it that he is the prime minister with the majority and he will have to accept that if that happens. So in a democracy transition and change is the only thing no matter how well the government is or how well the president is change is the only thing that is possible in democracy. In the democracy and outside the democracy change is the only thing constant. That's my view. Yes I totally agree. It's all about change because the world is changing faster now and change along with the world. It has to change with the way the people in the country are changing. So let me ask you one last question before we have to go Kariki. You are very Akamai that's a Hawaii word right. Akamai means wise about Indian affairs and Indian issues and events. I wonder if with your business degree and your training and coming from Varanasi and all whether you could ever be involved in politics whether you would ever consider running for office participating in the national government. Well I am ambitious person if I ever got a chance to become prime minister I would surely do because I am not going to hide it but it would be good to be ambitious if I got a chance you know Julius who said I turned down the crown for three times I will take that crown but the thing is how we work in a democracy is something that I believe that in every single democracy you have to work with the people with the opposition and the foreign country that's my view that over this time I have learned in a democracy the only thing which can protect you is dialogue if you are willing enough to talk with people to talk with the opposition in people in general on any issues dialogue is the only way which can save you which can protect you and which can guide you towards future democracy is not about conversation that's my whole view on that a prime minister who is willing to talk and resolve issues is someone people will accept so that kind of prime minister you play the camera okay I will definitely vote for you Kartike thank you very much Kartike Mishra joining us from Varanasi, India we'll talk to you again soon Kartike stay well thank you