 What is up everyone and welcome to modern-day debate. We are a neutral non-partisan platform welcoming everyone from all walks of life. If you're looking for even more fantastic debates we are all over the internet including your favorite podcasting platform so if you enjoy debates please don't forget to like follow on twitch or subscribe on YouTube or hey TikTok is almost at a thousand including tonight's debate on our men ignored slash unappreciated today with our debaters Andrew and Rachel and Radical Coder and Ashley here to help us find out and if you enjoy what any of them have to say tonight our guest links are in the description below you can also tag me in chat at Amy Newman with your question comment for our Q&A section those super chats will get yours sent to the top of the list but with that we are going to hand it over to the affirmative for their opening statements the floor is all yours and you may have to unmute all right can you guys hear me okay we can all right so I'll jump right into this Radical Coder you're gay by the way so our men treated like shit in society this is the question unequivocally the answer is yes before I get into all the reasons that's true let me tell you what my opponents will argue which can be only one of two things it'll be either be a yes men are treated like crap in society but that's due to men being in charge and it's secretly the patriarchy which is instilling an oppressive system designed to treat men poorly and so we should all be feminists so that men get treated better or option to yes but they deserve it because they were oppressive to the poor women's for 200 billion years and they're getting their just comeuppance ultimately though I think they will concede in the opening thus maintaining our 100% perfect tally on modern day debate of our opponents conceding the position before the debate even starts so where to begin let's start with women pretending to be minorities even though they are actually a majority yes friends women outnumber men yet somehow still have done a bait and switch where they pretend they are somehow a minority who deserves to be protected from what you ask basically from men hurting their feefies yes be nice is the creed of the modern woman women get lighter prison sentences for the same crimes are favored into forces they initiate most divorces even though they are still favored in them schools are tailored to their needs which is why they do better academically the list goes on and on and on and we have an exhaustive list of stats with us let me also remind everybody that men not only are totally benevolent and don't deserve the scathing wrath of horrible harping women treating us all horribly because they are entitled snotty brats but I can demonstrate this benevolency of men using the Thanos technique if men decided with a snap of their fingers tomorrow that all women were to be enslaved then they would be all they could really do is whine a lot and beg and plead and that's about it however if women decided men were to be enslaved tomorrow we would scoff and again all they could do is whine and complain the reason women are allowed to get away with their shitty behavior is because women are too busy according to the stats breeding with men who treat them like something they scraped off the corner of the mouth this morning and threw it in a trash can men's benevolent and good nature can't be overstated all of society is run due to us being awesome and we do all of this despite incessant complaining from women who are not allowed to be enslaved awesome and we do all of this despite incessant complaining from women who mostly hold office jobs are waitresses and fill up the service industry in general because a real job would literally kill them we do all of this for all of society and we're treated like rapists orchestrators of violence evildoers and generally taught that masculinity in and of itself is a trait to be mocked and scorned rather than adhered to it's a disgusting society we live in that holds these virtues and we're here tonight to prove that of course men are treated horribly like garbage nobody cares about men not even other men the expectation of society is that men fix their own problems and everybody else's too chiefly women's and that's my opening thank you all right so i guess it's my turn um some of you guys in the chat theorize that maybe andrew is being facetious i can assure you that he is not that's just his style he's very straightforward i'm going to completely agree with him and not only agree with him but back his play here i did write a book on the subject as well not to like flex on you guys um but what andrew said is true uh and where this comes from is that prior to women's liberation we had a balance of power where men had the monopoly on force women had the monopoly on reproduction women were the gatekeepers of reproduction each of you watching this has twice as many female ancestors as you do male ancestors women all they have to do to be able to reproduce is be female and be fertile men in order to reproduce historically have had to fight their way up the hierarchy they've had to have resources they've had to prove themselves good providers good protectors things of that nature um and what happened when uh we did the whole female liberation shtick was that we flipped the balance of power so now women not only have a monopoly on reproductive uh power but they also have political power they have financial power and they have social power so now uh we have three and a half times more men committing suicide than women we have uh like andrew said much stiffer harsher sentences that men receive for the exact same crimes as women we have uh young boys who don't do well in school school public school systems are completely skewed in favor of girls and girls behavior and boys are expected to behave like girls this is mostly due to the fact that about 90 percent of school teachers in k through 12 schools are women and uh now college degrees are about 77 percent of them are are earned by women so women have social power they have financial power about 80 percent of every consumer dollar in the united states is controlled by women so all the marketing is geared toward women all the entertainment is geared toward women the highest earning entertainer of 2020 was Kylie Jenner she doubled the next closest man on the list who was Kanye West women have tremendous amounts of power and men have almost none the family court system is skewed very much in favor of women although that's changing a little bit because there are some good men's activism groups working on that it's pretty indisputable that women are worshiped and praised and treated with a lot of bias and men are kind of treated as expendable and uh like they can just be thrown away and the reason for this is because now we have an industrial technological society that gives us this false illusion that women can do everything men can do however the average ceo boss bitch gets up in the morning in her condo or her apartment or her house that was designed and built by a man uh she gets in her car that was designed and built by a man she drives to her office building that was designed and built by a man on roads that were designed and built by men and if she gets to her corner office and her computer doesn't work she calls a man and he comes and fixes it and then she uses a program at work that she was trained to use that was designed by men most likely uh to do whatever job it is that she does and as andrew said if you look at the careers of women in this country from 1920 to 2020 that's a hundred year span they're almost exactly the same the only thing is we swapped uh farm labor for HR work basically and the rest is secretaries daycare workers nurses um administrative assistants cooks uh waitresses things of that nature so it's it's really like an illusion of female power without anything to back it up the only reason this exists is because men allow it and the only reason men allow it is because they felt like the sexual revolution was a good deal for them turns out that unattached sex with no responsibility is actually quite a huge liability for men and not not something that was in their favor so i think we have a pretty good case here and i'm interested to see what the other side has to say thank you so very much for both of our analogators on the affirmative side sounds like a cat and with that we are going to hand it over to the negative side the floor is all yours ryan did you want to start us off uh sure um so i guess i'll start out uh i i did think it was interesting at the outset that uh it was when we were asked to do this debate that it was kind of implicit that we would take the no position i don't i don't have a solid answer on this question i don't really know entirely yet how to engage with the question i wrote down a bunch of notes during that uh um during that so we you know we'll walk through this i think the first the first question i have is like which men are we talking about and by whom are they underappreciated um i would say that like it depends on the context a lot um uh like we could argue in a lot of cases that men are underappreciated by other men uh we can argue they are underappreciated but like this this whole like gender warfare thing is really boring to me so i'd like to be like way more specific um when we're talking about these things maybe we can uh we can kind of hammer a lot of that down um as we go through um that that's kind of my my biggest uh my biggest point of contention with like the whole framing here uh last last time i was on i uh i did challenge james to a debate about uh whether or not modern day debate is actually a neutral platform so uh maybe eventually i can uh i can follow up with that um uh because i think i think it's interesting that andrew says oh they always concede the point or whatever uh i think last time something like that happened um uh but uh i i think maybe the framing of the questions might have something to do with with why it's so easy um for andrew it's kind of a vacuous question really our men underappreciated like we just have to be way more specific about this underappreciated in what ways by whom um uh all of these are are really big uh like it's just without without answering these questions we can't even begin to have the conversation so i guess that's um really where i'd like to start going um but uh i'll let ashley uh give her perspective on things from for now yeah i i agree with you ryan i was kind of i i was kind of uh amused when andrew said oh they're going to concede before it even starts because like you i was just sending an email asking if i wanted to debate our men underappreciated and the funny thing is is that a majority of my content is about how men are underappreciated in a lot of these ways um but if i'm going to argue any points i would say yes you are right rachel uh men's suicide rates successful suicide rates much higher than women um but if you look at it statistically the same statistics you're looking at it's actually suicide attempts and thoughts of suicide or predominantly female it's just method of suicide men tend to to do suicide by hanging carbon monoxide poisoning or firearms while women tend to go for like medication they over medicate to try to off themselves and the thing with that is that you're more likely to be found before the suicide attempt um has been successful quote unquote if you want to call it that so just to clarify that that little point um i but it is interesting it is interesting um also the highest rate of suicides it would be in america anyways would be what what was it ryan i said middle white males yeah middle-aged women yeah middle-aged white males um and then um another thing that i thought was really interesting we're talking about you guys were talking about the schools right and how um education is catered primarily towards females i don't know how much i agree with catered towards females but i do know that the rates of female college graduates are uh well outnumbering male college graduates you know um that i'll agree with you on um another interesting statistic i looked up earlier was like i think what was it in the span between in one year from like 2021 to 2022 female ceo's went from like 17 percent up to 30 percent in one year because that was a point i brought up to ryan i said i wonder if that number is going to change you know in five years 10 years 30 years down the road if we're having more female college graduates than males then wouldn't want to assume we'd have more you know female ceos in the in the future than male um so that's another interesting thing and then one thing you said rachel that i can i can agree with but maybe maybe we'll have a slightly different opinion on um even though we agree but kind of different you know is that um you were saying that oh you know i kind of like the way you worded it actually like who know who would guess you know unattached you know just sex you know without any consequences like wouldn't be good for you you know i will agree with you that i i think that um the traditional role of family you know uh husband wife you know son daughter etc has kind of i don't i don't know if it's gone out the window but it's definitely definitely largely perverted one might say from what it used to be for lack of a better adjective maybe to use there um but i also think that like one thing andrew said too like it's breeding this kind of culture of simps you know the beta simp male that's trying to like sniff after the girl and chase after her to hopefully get some poonan you know he may or may not um that's interesting to me too it's almost one of the questions like we want to ask like what came first the chicken or the egg you know what i mean so like when you when you take sex completely out of the equation um it just makes me wonder like i guess the only benefit then would be for marriage would be children um maybe financial stability maybe taxes you know um but so many people especially women now are able to just either not have kids at all have surrogate mothers um adopt that's the thing that a lot of people are doing it's just becoming more and more popular um for same-sex couples to have surrogate parents and so yeah i kind of agree and disagree because and the way i disagree is that like is that lack of power sex equals power you know is that lack of power kind of also um turning a lot of men angry you know and i've said this before and i'll say it again but like i feel like a lot of this a lot of this modern day you know feminism the the purple haired you know crazy twitter feminists like i think that it's it's um breeding this culture like you would say it's making good men somewhat bad and it's making bad men somewhat dangerous um so i think it's kind of a double-edged sword but anyways maybe i hope i kind of clarified some of my points of view thank you so very much for the negative side and with that we are going to go into about 50 minutes to an hour of open conversation the floor is yours panel all right i just want to first point out that as andrew predicted they conceded pretty much right out of the gate they kind of definitely didn't concede anything well we well okay look if you can't suss out your position in a debate when it's proposed to you you don't get to come on and then look weak and say well i didn't know when i didn't understand and i feel like it wasn't but now you explain to me right so can we can we skip the theatrics and just talk about the issue no it's not theatrics it is you don't get to cope with your opening statement anyway anyway and get away with it i'm going to call you on it right okay go ahead you can do that later but uh so to the to the point that the first way you didn't even have a position really it was just like well we kind of agree but maybe we disagree and i don't know i'm open you guys might change my mind and i just want to let everyone be able to hear both sides so uh rachel sounded like you were about to say something and then radical code or it sounded like you had an idea right after that keep your keep your adhc under control while she talks so um ashley pointed out something which is that uh yes men are much more successful in suicide attempts and that's because they mean it and women tend to do it out of like this cry for attention stuff which kind of gets to what we're talking about here which is women have become very adept at emotional manipulation social manipulation um and attention is women's currency so that the reason there's a gap in suicide there is because women don't really mean it they're crazy but they don't want to die they just want you to pay attention to them men feel like there's no point like why build the modern world why build the entire modern world and then get shit on you know so all right that's why men actually kill themselves yeah can you respond to one other thing that i just want to bring up real quick can i can i do it one point at a time i guess yeah you're right you can respond to this one too sure it's tied in sorry let let yeah go ahead well i'm just i'm a uh andrew can you just hold i'll make sure that it goes back to you but then um radical coder make a point but then i want to make sure it actually goes right back to andrew of all people because he was saying about sure yeah so i mean i think this is kind of a a cute story about like the way that uh suicide rates play out um i think in reality um what we're really talking about is uh what the term is like fatal suicidal behavior versus non-fatal suicidal behavior and women are extremely overrepresented in non-fatal suicidal behavior and men are overrepresented in fatal suicidal behavior and i think it's really uh honestly kind of like sociopathic to just allude that all these women who are uh like uh basically like engaging in uh suicidal behavior regardless of whether it's fatal or non-fatal are just doing it for attention seeking um i i just i just don't i don't know that you have any good reason to believe that so they're just bad at it they're just bad at it they're just not as good as men doing chill chill first of all i think ashley mentioned one thing that uh the methods that they're using uh tend to take longer and so they're bad at it so i mean you can call it that but i i don't like this is why i don't even agree with the patriarchy wins again yeah every time the women are so terrible at committing suicide they can't even do it again it's very cute when you guys talk about people killing themselves and it's all big memes for you guys but for those of us who actually care about when people kill themselves we actually want to care about like oh yeah virtue signal more yeah virtue yeah i'm sorry again by the way let me ask you let me ask you about that's fine let me ask you another point go ahead finish your point right okay so uh i think it's irresponsible to talk about the terms like successful suicide rate i think that that phrase already adds a lot of intent to someone engaging in fatal suicidal behavior and uh yeah i mean we can we can leave it there but i i think it's it's kind of cringe to just paint the story that like women actually don't want to die when they engage in uh suicidal behavior uh especially women who do um uh end up dying from that suicidal behavior so uh yeah i don't know you had nothing so you had nothing for that other than other than like painting women is nothing useful that silly we're very mean yeah you have nothing at the beginning that we are going on hang on we're the mean radical coder you literally didn't add anything to it there was no reason for you to even disagree and by the way i think i offered a better way to think about this let me ask you let me ask you this question and i'm not gonna you know i'm keen on spotting passive aggressive behavior and i noticed you rolling in and you were alluding to the fact that you seem to think that there was a conspiracy between ourselves and james oh no this topic no no you tied this in specifically hang on let me finish let me finish coder i'm you tie it in specifically right at the beginning of the intro and say i wanted to debate james on whether or not he has a neutral uh platform still do and then you went on to state that the way that this topic was framed was in some way designed specifically so that we could come in with a win own we just knew that we would do that because who were debating but i want to know you specifically don't actually believe that myself my wife and james coons of modern day debate conspired to create a topic just to humiliate you right yeah and i don't think you're going to humiliate me but no i don't think that i think well i don't need to you do that to yourself okay i know you want to clear that up i just want to clear that up because it's insane do you want to engage with that that's the way that you you know i just want to know that that's how it sounded we talk about the topic or yeah yeah but i'm not going to let you get away with passive aggressive behavior well i mean i'm going to be very passive aggressive this whole time yeah i know you already are we know aggressive yeah right could you go ahead and define then um whatever ryan made his opening statement he wanted um either you or rachel to kind of define what you believe exactly is going on as far as what men are we talking about that are being undervalued and underappreciated like and by whom so generally speaking the way that we would frame this is that it's tiered in the levels of which men are the most ostracized in society but mostly uh all men are affected by this generally working class men seem to seemingly get it the worst if you're not in the top five percent you get it even worse than that societal expectations especially from i think that's with every gender though sorry to interrupt but i mean the top five percent of anything is going to get anything less bad i'm i'm just specifically when i you can't so so ashley you can't ask me to define it and then in the middle of my definition you stopped me like my apologies let me clarify so when i say that like if you specifically thinking of this subject right now what's the first thing that comes to your mind and who do you feel is white men white men are the most are the most for sure by by no by no other metric can i can i state this more emphatically that what would generally be considered in public consciousness and public thought a white man is the most discriminated against person inside of the united states period okay old claim yeah well i mean i'm do you have a defense against it not yet no i didn't i didn't i didn't think so so here's the thing uh ashley here's why for one thing uh again you and i think you guys would both have to agree with this that women have decided to include themselves as a minority group they are fighting for a type of group rights and it's framed as them being a minority even though they're not an actual minority they're a majority so what they do is they do additional demographic breakdowns right so then it's woman plus black woman plus gay woman plus this but the woman adds to the victim hood card this is how this is done it's in tiers and it's social tiers designed to break these groups down and you can actually watch the counter discrimination all the way back to white male sure so to that point specifically i just like that victim hood mentality um i'll agree with you that like anytime that i ever do see anything like um especially on social media or in the news even when it is a man being targeted it is i mean what is the common saying that that that all the feminists and in any other subgroup have right now right is that it's a cis white male so i can agree with you on that so so i mean again we're kind of an agreement here as we break these things down everything is designated a victim group this is actually part of critical race theory in my opinion i know i know coat yeah exactly it's based um but as we break these down for instance if you're a white man for instance who becomes trans suddenly you get the victim card which helps move you into that portion of victim society uh same thing with uh if you're a woman in your white woman you're less oppressed than a black woman but you're still a woman so you're at least a little bit oppressed hang on hang on so i'm just i'm just kind of walking you through the victim olympics here but i are you insinuating that white men are purposely becoming transgender so that they aren't as prejudiced against i think that there's that there's something to be said for the fact and i'm not just insinuating it but i would actually push this as a a part of a larger argument that yes unsuccessful especially middle-aged men rather than blow their brains out seem to prefer to move towards transitioning they seem to get the attention that they want especially on tiktok places like this uh and that victims the victim mentality seems to work pretty well for them yeah what data are you basing that off of i'm just basing this this off of observation would be part of a large hang on it would be part of a larger argument it's not a singular argument by itself you asked my opinion on it specifically so i gave it yeah i'm just curious where what you're basing that off of i really honestly no well i have actually helped substantiate that i wrote a piece that's on my sub-stack rwilson.substack.com about programs that are intended to help men transition they are hypno like hypno pornography programs that are highly suspicious very well produced nobody knows who's making them probably the most popular one is called bambi sleep and this is uh they get you into the program via like trans porn and things like that called hypnosisification yeah hypnosisification and it is it indoctrinates the male listener with the idea that if they are addicted to porn they're watching this stuff they are unsuccessful as men they would be better off as women because then at least they would get attention they would get sex they would be in demand they would be wanted by someone and then it further and further integrates the listener into this um program and it's meant to help transition them into being a woman it's very insidious very nefarious stuff um but these exist they're out there sure so uh if i if i can start maybe start there i guess um the idea that like uh like becoming a trans woman is is like a is like a solution for these men to like finally like uh be like find find themselves in a better position in society i don't know if that really makes that much sense um it's not really about so that would be wait no that would be your argument you would you would i can't even say a fucking sentence so like why why why do i even start okay go ahead go ahead i'm gonna pull you both apart so i i can hear radical coder and andrew which means radical coder make your statement and then andrew you're next i appreciate that um so yeah i don't i don't really buy this narrative that um like trans women are transitioning like like just for the sake of uh so that they can find themselves in a slightly better position in society it seems like trans women uh get treated pretty badly uh throughout society um i think that's pretty clear honestly if you if you're on the internet for even more than a few minutes um or if you are aware of like the stats around uh trans people and their suicide rates and all sorts of other things or the way they're discriminated against is pretty common i do want to speak really quick to the critical race theory thing just to be clear critic all critical race theory says that race is not a biological category which is uh just a kind of a scientific fact so if you have a problem with that um i mean that's uh you can take that up with the race realists like uh what's that guy who's coming on he's in the the little patch here whatever um but uh you finally to the point about like the minority pretending to be a majority or majority pretending to be a minority um it's kind of a uh a word game here minority doesn't minority in this context uh is not literally uh the like the number of people is less than the other group of people um it's more about being minorized right which is more of being put in a subordinate position in society um which i think it's interesting that at one point andrew made the point that if men really wanted to we could just enslave all the women um and so like i think like the fact that he feels so confident um stating something so it insidious and insane um is maybe maybe speaks maybe speaks to uh uh so let's back up a value system that puts women in and let me let's walk through hang on hang on let's walk through these isn't isn't is an odd uh what isn't is an odd i i don't why are you asking me this can you just get i need you to answer my no you don't know just to respond dude no you just answer my question stupid really isn't is an odd isn't is an odd i don't know i don't even know what you mean i've never heard of philosophy you know okay so isn't is an odd i don't know why why don't you just say your point why are you doing this weird like because i need to ask you and you don't just say what you want to say no one no because it's baked into what you're saying i can't deconstruct it i can't deconstruct your argument if you don't answer questions can you do that or not i can't i can't so you have to say your point okay if you can't answer if you can't answer questions then there's no point in debating well you can leave if you want no you would have to leave i'm i don't do this shit i'm asking you i know what he's like just say your point dude i've i've i've said my point isn't is an odd okay now you can say i don't know okay just say just say i don't know the next point we're talking about lighter sentencing and you can do you move on to whatever you want and i can't believe you want to answer the question i don't know why why don't you just say your point that you're getting at like why do you have to do Ryan this is a debate oh my god it doesn't mean how many sides does the square have like then if you know the answers to those questions answer them it seems like kind of like you're just trying to play word games well no no no no semantics in a debate semantics in a debate specifically are very important i need to know since he's making his statements and then he's saying that i'm using them as odd statements that he knows the difference between isn't an odd by the example where yes you said that i say because it is the case that men could snap their fingers and therefore women would be enslaved if they did that means it ought be done i didn't actually say it ought be done yes but that's what you said that ryan ryan i'm sorry if i did that's what you said right no it was more than it was more the implication of such a no no no you said that this is an insane position that i came up with but i didn't have a position i gave you an ish correct no you actually said that if men could they would no i don't know he said this is why it's important that i know that you guys know the difference between what is and what ought be by the way i wasn't saying that you think wait a second i have to clarify that because he said he said they could and the fact that they don't is a point in their corner that they are benevolent and that there is no that's right hatred no he's saying men could men have a monopoly on force they could just enslave women if they wanted to with the snap of a finger which is true but they don't which means they are not they ought to do it either ryan so when you so when you make those statements it's important now it is opening argument yeah you can go back to the opening argument see if i have it written right down i can read it to you the part that i'm talking about i want to actually play what you said it's okay go ahead and play it but in any case i did not prescribe that that should be done i agree i said that five times done anything like this well your partner seems to be confused so then backing up and deconstructing this a little bit further because it's important to do i understand when you're talking about racial categorization not being biological categories have no use for that myself either however i'm alluding to your worldview of public consciousness when we talk about white in the public consciousness that does mean something you would agree that that's true right uh i'm sorry i was reading something i i missed the last half uh white something about white people with public consciousness what's the what's the look if if you're not going to even listen to the questions if you're not i'm really asking you because i i missed it i'm genuinely i'm not i'm not trying to be a big be a meme here like what was what was the point again i'm going to ask you one more time i'm not alluding to a biological category with white but i'm alluding to a public consciousness of what that means uh sure what about it and you would agree that there's a public perception of what white is even if you don't think it's a biological category right yeah of course i think okay so category so when i say that this categorization that people often reference and think of outside of biology but within a social construction being the most oppressed in society and i make my case by saying that they have no minority status you say and your claim is that minority is semantics and doesn't actually mean less than rather it means minoritize what does that mean minoritize uh minoritize means to make a person or group subordinate and status to a more dominant group or its members okay so uh this would mean that you could have a majority but still be minoritized by an actual physical minority right yeah sure okay and that's what i'm saying that's what i'm saying is happening to whites right now is that they're being minoritized and even though they're in the majority you said if men decided tomorrow that with the snap of a finger that women could be enslaved then they would be and all women could do about it would be the wine and crime complaint and you're that's an is statement hang on hang on ashley ashley is that an odd statement is that an odd statement a lot of men do want to do that but they wait no no stop no no you're wrong i want to know this quite the answer to this question ashley is that an is statement or an odd statement did i say that ought to happen or do i say that that is what is my dot too because you implied that i did not imply that i believe you are people that don't know logic they don't have any basis in philosophy they don't have a science degree my degree is in fact in logic and an odd claim well why didn't you answer a basic question you didn't say that men ought to have been butts for candies and nuts right she'll might be a more pleasant person right so again can we talk about the topic this is not a pleasantness contest i hate to break this to you this is not a popularity contest if it were you lose who's nicer exactly this is a debate and i can't debate get the hell off the show and on that i'm pulling everybody apart pulling everybody apart enjoy the enthusiasm and enjoy the spice gonna send love out there keep on sending in questions and don't forget to like follow and subscribe but with that we're gonna hand it off to one person ashley just put up your finger and thus you are the next speaker i i do believe that i get the sentiment of what you are saying but i do believe also andrew that that's wordplay and i think that you know it i think it's a manipulative tactic to use when you said if the Thanos technique right like if tomorrow men could snap their fingers and all women can they can i'm talking i thought that's nice i'm talking to is that amazing we know that's the problem do you know how a debate works andrew the moderator gave me the floor if you can't handle it then get out yeah but that's just showing more preference and she proves that men are treated like shit and she's the most impressed instantly picking a woman's side of course but go ahead go ahead give us your fluff illogical bullshit that i can respond to all wait oh well that's so kind of you say it is because i'm benevolent i told you if tomorrow men could use the Thanos technique and snap their fingers and all women would be enslaved could be enslaved pardon me then they would be does that not sound to you does that not sound to any logical person rachel that if they could then they would well then why don't they why haven't they he's just saying they could but there's not a fucking possibility you want the love of god what do you mean wait wait are you saying that there's not civilizations right this second where men haven't snapped their fingers and women are completely dominated is to survey it to them i'm saying that Thanos is from a comic book and that is a surreal oh really is he i didn't know that tell me more things i don't know ashley okay i could probably do that to be quite honest i just think that your technique is to play word games and it's just no that's not word games it's try to pay attention let me explain it to you he's saying if men were the evil bastards that the you know the evil patriarchy that they're painted to be they would enslave women tomorrow because they can't they can't because they don't you want to ask that they don't my point of view but that's what they let me finish it doesn't matter it's what he actually said i'm gonna pull both apart and it sounded like rachel you were finishing something so i'm gonna give it to you and then i'll give it back to you ashley yes what andrew actually said i don't care what you're inferring or how it made you feel what he actually said was if men wanted to be the tyrants that they're painted as they could do it tomorrow but they don't they haven't and they don't and they're not going to which is proof that they are which is proof that they are benevolent that they are not some kind of evil oppressors who just want to enslave us because they have that ability yet they don't do it now we need to get back to the topic of the debate and you two need to defend your position so i would like to hear your argument as to why men are not ignored or discarded or treated unfairly and please present an argument my argument is that it's men like your husband who represent a lot of these assholes and it makes women hate all men that's my argument how you like them that's not an argument whatever i actually think there is a point to that if i if i can i think there is something to that because i think a lot of the times when we talk about men like you so i think to be clear to be clear about to be clear about the question of the debate it was about whether men are underappreciated compared to women correct that was how the email was framed um so i think it's interesting that a lot of times like in a lot of the context that i would agree that men are undervalued and underappreciated it's by other men um in a lot of ways like by bosses um i and even by like um like family members and stuff and and by other men who don't who perceive them as not living up to certain masculine ideals um and and that they are shamed for these things um i mean at the beginning of this debate uh which by the way i'm not but at the beginning of this debate andrew mocked me for supposedly being gay um which i think is because i embrace a lot of feminine characteristics or from his perspective i do and he's shaming me for that he's using as an insult to me right he's shaming me for presenting in what he perceives as a feminine way and he's saying not only am i doing that but he's seeing that's a bad thing um so i'd say that it's men like again like ashley said it's men like andrew and men who are who are pushing other men down um for for presenting or expo expressing themselves in ways that he's uncomfortable with um who are who are really undervaluing why are they higher whether or not it has something to do with thoughts or who did it better or who did it worse whatever why are they higher because mental health is discouraged in men that's why and and who's doing that discouraging men like you andrew and other men especially men like andrew so back to me being the epitome of the evil patriarchy which is oppressing everybody meanwhile i have things we never said hang on i have a solid whole family unit with multiple children and have been married successfully i might add for 16 years any track record of anybody else here who can say that anybody hands hands nobody no not not a single person the stable the only stable male person who's here the only stable person who has these male characteristics that i espouse in these virtues is the only one that has an actual stable family unit gave you guys an opportunity to say me too but there is no me too just me just me right so i think i think what it is i think what it is it's sheer jealousy very upset you're very unhappy you're not very thrilled that you don't understand basic logic and i called you out on it but you still haven't actually given us what rachel's asked for multiple times which is an argument do you have an argument and all you're saying is you're jealous you're jealous you have an argument ashley we thought i did make it actually we presented an argument what's the argument several what's the argument i can clarify yeah clear the argument that i was making just now was that in the the because i wanted to be more specific about like which men by whom i would say that in a lot of ways the men who are undervalued in society they are undervalued and underappreciated not by by like women as a gender but by a lot of other men and let me respond but largely by other men let me respond to that argument let me respond to that argument right my response to the argument is that what you guys have tried to do is say i am responsible it's men like me who are responsible for the oppression of people like you so therefore i'm trying this is actually alludes to my point that you guys are as oppressive as possible to family dynamics in an actual patriarchal system and this is why men are shutting down all over the place because little wimps come in and say you're being oppressive i have nothing to do with you being a shitty person bro what makes me a shitty person what makes me a shitty person give me an argument about how i'm a shitty person what's the argument for me being a bad person what is one example that i the one example that i used um was that you you again you alluded to the idea that i'm gay and you also were using like saying the first time i um right you're gay like yeah like it was literally the first thing you said like i but you were you like i know you were mean it's not an argument please thank you thank you right i know i know i know so i'm part again uh radical it's not it's not about being mean i'm sorry no you're good um radical and then it'll throw it over to the side i wasn't presenting right so argument radical is here are you are you radical andrew um did you want me to clarify the position or no i wanted to clarify my position so i already know your position well it doesn't seem like you do so to be clear my issue wasn't with you being mean my issue was with the punchline of what you were being mean about right so you were using my uh a lot of traits that i have that people perceive as feminine and you were saying that these are bad things you were insulting me i was i don't feel insulted to be clear i don't care oh i get called gay all the time i'll go fuck dude i i'm i'm sure you do i'm sure you do and i hook and rock it all right okay i own that shit and that's fine but you were weaponizing it and you were saying that i wasn't living up to your ideal of masculinity and you're saying that's a bad thing i think a lot of times this is the problem because we see men who are shaming other men for not living up to some uh archetype of masculinity and and and that when men find that they don't live up to these things that they're not able to provide in the ways that they're and which i provide just fine but to the men who feel like they can't provide in the ways that they're expected to um this is where a lot of mental health crises come in and they're also ashamed for seeking help and expressing their emotions and that's just a thanks bye radical coder i'm gonna i'm gonna here's my counter argument to this ridiculous argument by the way which has no merit on anything just so you understand i want to ask you a very basic question see if you can answer it uh ashley over there who hates me thinking i'm a mean dick because i called you gay at the outset of this i also think you're a mean dick because it was hilarious by the way and you have no sense of humor uh and it was hilarious if the building was burning down and she had to walk over to your five foot four ass who weighs 125 pounds or walk over to my six foot 180 pound person and say please run in there and take my child out of the building she wouldn't pick you coder and this is why lesson you over this is why this is why you get shamed the reason you get shamed for not living up to the expectation masculinity is because we need masculine men to run society that's why we need we need it well who do you think coder coder who do you think who do you think a woman would generally go to if they saw you with your gloves and your pink hair right i don't know who do you think but but to be no answer my question right i don't know just as i don't know yeah he just says i don't know i don't know yeah probably me it seems like you might be a little bit more handsome that situation right yeah i i i move pretty quick i i can lift a little bit don't worry i got you okay but we're getting way off lift your pink weights this was supposed to be a debate about whether or not men are treated bad i know that's what we want to talk about but you guys don't want to you you know that's exactly what i want to talk about cool let's do it yeah so we i outlined a ton of points in my opening which none of neither of you have addressed this is a common problem that i actually over actually it's you've been talking it's my turn to talk you're aligned i've outlined several points that prove that men are actually at a disadvantage and are treated worse than women in society now right so you haven't answered to any of those and this is a common problem i run into with people who don't understand what a debate is or how to do it you are supposed to respond to my points when i say why are men getting 40 percent longer sentences than women for the exact same crime why are because no one's disagreeing with you on that dumbass because they already conceded to debate at this point we're just going to make an argument that proves why would i argue to get something like fucking agree with right why are you debating right if you agree with me why are you here debating why don't you talk to the host about that no you're the one who accepted the conspiracy i assumed i was on the other side bitch that's funny oh now i'm a bitch this is see what i mean that she's you are competent that she can't she can't emotionally hang on you're emotionally unhinged yes you need a calm calm calm down if the patriarchs were still around they would take care of women like ashley and make them behave so please ashley well if it were then who would buy your book and i'm gonna blow job more often he wouldn't be so wound up and i appreciate this advice but just gonna send a reminder that all of our lovely audience wants to hear each of your points and so get a hand it back to whoever would like to have the ball yeah so i'd like to i'd like to take it from here um interestingly enough instantly ashley goes right for the degenerate cut right the assumption being that i'm just so wound up from a lack of blowjobs i heard you say this before on ashley no you haven't it's not an assumption what are you talking you've never heard it once no you've never he doesn't ever talk about that i'll make a five hundred what five hundred dollar bet with you right now and i'll give you two months alex from fire stream that marriages often are sexless and that it's okay to have a sexless marriage no he did not what in the world hang on hang on i just want to i just want to let you know again you still don't understand the difference between she's so threatened she's got i have not i have never ever made such a statement i just think it's hilarious that the first thing you go to to how to make a man behave is to give them a blowjob i think that's interesting and hilarious in fact that he doesn't have anything upstairs he has to try to use sexuality right you can control that guy if you have to use physical abuse and you're doing the same fucking thing if you would like radical coder or ashley i'll give you like another 30 more seconds and then we'll go back over the s side yep you're good all right so rachel you i said that in response to you talking about men physically abusing a woman in order to put her in her place but you're going to sit there physically you're why did i say physical abuse oh i'm sorry was i insinuating things again you said of a patriarchy men would handle women like ashley to put her in place you just would be socially shamed into not being a stupid vapid empty-headed bitch who calls me a bitch because i am smart and know how to debate nothing upstairs you don't you shouldn't be here so now that we are doing something else now that we're even on on ad hominems i want to remind everyone just to attack the arguments and not the people but please wait wait moderators please an argument for the love of god but those aren't ad homes those weren't they're not ad homes if they're truth claims the truth claim that rachel's making is that ashley's an empty-headed stupid bitch it's a truth claim it's not an ad home i thought you were gonna make it what any of our our our interlocutors have had to say tonight their links are in the description below just want to send more love out there oh i'm sorry i'm sorry not at all i'm enjoying the good conversation you are namey thank you thank you so very much send it right back to all of you and we still have a good 20 30 minutes of meat in here if we have questions for each other and so it's right back really i really really do want to actually debate the topic so if you guys present an argument for your side rather than just saying you agree with us that would be awesome well to be honest rachel you guys have been nothing but in the beginning i thought it was okay but you've come in in my opinion again in bad faith you're very con but truly truly you really are rachel you're very condescending and i felt like in the beginning we were kind of having a conversation where we were trying to find some things that are kind of different that we don't agree on and then you specifically andrew literally go straight into ad hominin attacks i'm not the one that went there i'm not i'm not the one that went there you don't even know what are you cement i'll tell you what i'll tell you what ashley after after what can i actually let me just ask a direct question what do you think an ad hominem is it doesn't matter to person and not the argument that's what i think it is that's not what it means okay you want to tell me what do you want to tell me again what an ad hominem is so like you can make you can make a disparaging comment about somebody if it's pertinent to your argument like for instance if rachel says and it's pertinent to say this you're actually too stupid to have a debate with that's pertinent to her argument that you're not smart enough to do that's cute that's not pertinent to this argument no so when we talk about her argument so one of the points one of the points you guys brought up in the beginning one of the points one of the points i want to see them try to craft an argument i do i don't really don't think you do honestly i do okay yeah sure so one of the points that was made is that masculinity is scoring in its totality i really don't agree with this i think that people conflate this a lot because we talk about things like toxic masculinity which again is like very specific aspects of masculinity that are scorned that are harmful both to men and the people around them so i totally don't agree with the statement that masculinity is scorned i think that like being strong being providing for people around you and being supportive of the people around you being a good father things like this are absolutely not shamed in society these things are absolutely praised in society and for good reason because he's a positive thing so to suggest that masculinity and its totality is scorned i think is a movement point but maybe you disagree i also think that saying i i mean i really had an issue was saying that middle-aged white males are are legitimately purposely becoming transgendered in order to not be discriminated against so much i thought that was an egregious statement to make and you had absolutely nothing but just your your observations to back that up no porn apparently okay well let's go with what ryan said because ryan actually crafted an argument rather than complaining so ryan actually tried to make a point there and i would like to address his point which is that i would say this is how i would push back on what you said ryan if a man has an affair and leaves his wife and kids for another woman he is universally panned and bashed as a piece of shit a bad guy a deadbeat dad on the other hand if a woman has an affair and leaves her family for someone else the universal assumption is mostly like well she had to be happy you know there was probably something she was lacking and and we shouldn't judge her we can't judge her because she had to be happy you wouldn't want her to be unhappy so how do we address this uh this different perception of like cheating and having an affair or leaving the family breaking up the family and women initiate at least 70 of all divorces among college educated women that number is 90 percent so how do we address that i disagree with you i don't think women who cheat and leave their families are viewed that way at all i think in fact often they're called whores uh deserters um my mother did that to our family and and i never heard a good thing about that i don't know where you're getting that i know that your perception is your reality and maybe that's been your reality it is most certainly not been my reality i don't i don't understand where you're bringing that i will say i was saying on that single moms are defended like crazy yeah sure it's a real mom but that's not the same as cheating and leaving 70 percent of single moms are single by choice they initiate the divorce but you're making a you're complaining a lot of different things because it's a because it's one of the primary reasons they claim they got the divorce is they were unfulfilled and wanted to have sex with other men that's why that's good for you it's not abuse that's a total misconception if you look at all the survey you're why women choose divorce it's things like they're bored they're unfulfilled they don't feel appreciated they want to find themselves shit like that abuse is like number six or seven i'm not right i'm being legitimate because i really do want to know like what uh what studies or like uh statistics like what source what's your source for that part of it and i'm genuinely curious right so in my book so there's a bunch of sources in my book chapter 10 is all about this and i have maybe a dozen citations on this but it's it's um surveys that are conducted by law firms it's the uh department of uh homeland security not homeland security department of human services um that does this kind of statistical work so it's government sources it's uh legal firms and then there's also been a a couple of different studies done by like sociologists who study this kind of stuff so i was genuinely thank you for it i was genuinely and also in those studies is it do they also specify that the woman cheated no it's why it it's usually just reasons women give for initiating divorce and the normal assumption is oh there must be abuse but that's usually really far down on the list it's usually things like oh i'm just i'm unfulfilled that i can agree with i've read i've read a lot of i've read a lot of the same thing i've read a lot of the same thing and i find that to be very sad i think that marriage in and of itself i think that it's not what it used to be and i think that it's too easy to quit uh move on still get alimony and still get child support and still be able to be fulfilled i agree with you on that because they're treating women like shit right in that sense yeah that's what i'm saying i agree on that i do i'm not just here to be an asshole but i genuinely was curious about that's good because i'm way better at that because i'm you are but i was genuinely curious about the cheating thing though like because you did specifically say that like men cheat and they're almost praised for it or shamed for the interview and they're almost praised so marry so so here that that's the part that i yeah so let's so let's dive into that part all right but my personal experience you know because we're working off of like observational evidence and experience and things like this let's dive into that a little bit don't you agree that married men tend to have more friends who are married have children because their interests are more aligned same thing with single men and single women they generally have single friends because their interests are more aligned this is generally even even polling will show this that generally yes yeah so generally speaking yeah inside these different arenas if you're a single man you're hanging out with single men you cheat on a woman so i would consider even girlfriend status to be single unmarried in other words that you're perceived very differently in those in groups than you would be as a married man inside of married in groups so if you're married you cheat as a man you're married the married in groups you're a part of are much more likely to shame you than if you're a single man that's what a that's what her point is just to kind of give you credence to your observational evidence there right your in group the in group that you're a part of is going to shame you differently okay so you're saying that in this scenario the married woman and the married man that the woman has i'm sorry if i'm misunderstanding you in this scenario that the woman has more single friends and the man has more married friends no that's not what i'm saying at all what i'm saying is that the perception so i think that what you're saying is that you know the dude who cheats and gets the high five from other men i'm saying his in group is mostly going to be single unmarried okay i got you i got you and the in group of the man who's going to be shamed for not taking care of his family or cheating on his wife breaking his family up this and that is going to be more likely to be shamed by other married men so what about the woman then and and what so this is this is the interesting part because so many women initiate the divorces to begin with they seem to have a much better support structure when it comes to things like cheating and horrible behaviors because most of their in group are conducting the same behaviors and the men's in group is not in the in those synonyms yeah correct you see what i'm saying yes i so i mean would you even disagree with that it makes no sense i don't disagree i think that you're surrounding yourself with a certain type of person living a certain type of lifestyle it does tend to rub off her vice versa that i will completely agree with in that scenario i'm just saying though i i haven't personally experienced that in my life like i haven't uh again though i grew up in a broken home and my mother did do a lot of these things you know she did have affairs and kind of ran out on us and you know yada yada so this is anecdotal i understand but i'm just saying like that and this created a concave of cataclysmic events which then affected your life and does it repeat itself did the behaviors repeat themselves they didn't no they did not repeat themselves i i am divorced but i never cheated on my husband well right maybe well maybe there's caveats with every single situation but the behavior did repeat itself right yeah you try to do better each generation absolutely yeah so just the whole cheating like it seems like people cheating on each other is pretty universally like just despised i mean like i do see like you know occasionally like like an instagram post or like some some woman somewhere who's like oh yeah uh you go girl cheat on him you know like like fuck it fuck his dad fuck his boyfriend we don't like but like i think these are like pretty extreme outliers i don't think this is like there's like large support systems for for women specifically for cheating on their husbands i think generally but coder this would stand i think it would stand a logic i i don't i don't think it stands to logic i think well then let's deal let's look at then then let's look at it like i just did with ashley if you're in group who's married men do not initiate these divorces and don't do these general types of behaviors and this is most of what your friend group is comprised of don't you agree that the social shaming in that in group would be far more than an in group of people who do compromise the group that is conducting the behavior so you're well so you're saying that that like women who are getting divorces who are cheating on their husbands they're probably hanging out with other women who are cheating on the right this is this is by the numbers like no no no no the numbers the numbers that you're talking about are about women being divorced and hanging out with other women who are divorced but you're not exactly but your but that's not women no no you're talking about some women who are we're cheating on their husbands in the hangover. You're talking about 70%. No, you're talking, you're trying to extrapolate this huge amount of women. I have some data. You can't do that. I have some data that might help. There was a very large UK study, I think it was done in 2018 if I remember correctly, that showed this chain reaction where if in a friend group, one couple breaks up because one of the partners cheated, it increases the chances of the other couples cheating and breaking up by like 250% or something like that. Which makes logical sense. It makes logical sense. It's a social contagion. It's a social contagion. But my point was that when women cheat or when women leave a marriage, they generally get a lot of sympathy, a lot of support. There's so much support for single moms, single moms are heroes, single moms are amazing. And it doesn't really matter what the reasoning is of why they, if it was by choice or not that they became a single mom. Whereas like, if a man leaves a marriage because he says, look, I wasn't treated good. I was treated poorly. And so I had an affair and left. Everyone's like, oh, what a piece of shit. He's such an asshole. What a deadbeat dad. And it's like, if the mom says, oh, I didn't feel fulfilled and loved. I didn't feel like I was getting enough attention. So I had to cheat. There's just generally a lot of sympathy. People are more sympathetic to women. And just to add to that real quick before you guys respond real quick, real quick, it'll be real quick, but just to add to it real quick for radical coder. This is why we look at the virtues of masculinity so much because it is within our virtues to shame men who are horrific to their family, abandon them, treat them like they're interchangeable fucking widgets. And that's why we use shame tactics. You might think it's mean, but it's necessary within the in group so that we can keep all of our families intact. We can keep them together. We can work together. That's how that works in real time. Hey, don't cheat on your husband or your wife, you piece of shit. What are you thinking? I'm not kids at home. But this is not my home. I heard Rachel a few minutes ago. I just wanted to clarify. I'll just respond and then. Go ahead, Ray. I mean, I'm like, Andrew. I'll just say it seems like both of you have a point. So if you want, just go 30 seconds or whatever back to forth and then we'll hand it over back to the yes. Yeah. I was just going to add to what Andrew was saying. Like I was agreeing that like there's shame around people who are cheating on their spouses and that like, I think that's fine. I don't mind shaming people who cheat, but I also don't think that that then places like extra blame on people who are single parents to like, like they should be like treated worse for that at the end of the day. Like they still need support to raise those children. And fundamentally that's what I care about more than how the relationship ended. So I think that's maybe the difference we have. Okay. So I understand that, but listen. The question that I had for Rachel, because you wrote the book on the data chapter 10, I think. So you were saying that like, what was it? 70%, okay. So 70% of divorces are initiated by women got it. And then you were saying that the data overwhelmingly shows like and you cited your sources of why they left. And it was basically because they felt fulfilled, they were bored more or less. They were bored and they just wanted out, right? My question was the whole time I was wondering, of the 70%, what percentage are they actually getting these answers from? That's kind of an important caveat to that. Like what was the sample size? Right. So say 70% of people did something like how, obviously we don't. I mean that's a very study to study though. No, no, that's a really simple answer. So when you get a divorce, one party or the other has to file for the divorce, right? So in all 50 states, they can take that data and see that in 70% of all divorces filed that it was the wife in the marriage who filed for the divorce. I get that part, but the reasoning behind it, you said that was... Okay, well that would depend on what... It's all self-reports. And it's very important. I have a point to that, which I can make later or whatever, but that's very important to me to know because of 70%, we get it, we get it. But of those 70%, what percentage of those women were actually interviewed that actually said these things? It seems like we're kind of lumping two things together. And the reason I say that is because, no, no, I have a reason, Andrew, is because my husband actually wanted to leave me because he fell out of love with me. Neither of us cheated, there wasn't abuse. I feel slighted in that sense, right? But I am the one that actually filed the papers. The reason being is that my lawyer advised me to do so because it was more beneficial to me to do so. It was more beneficial to do so in the beginning, even though I am not the one. And trust me when I say I begged on my knees for him to reconsider. Yeah, but that's, but these are outliers though. If you're talking to me, look at that 70%. You say it's outliers, but I'm saying like... We have the self-reports, that's why. Because we have the self-reports, that's the whole point. Going back to voters... Of all 70% though, there's no way that each one of those women said, it's because I'm bored or I want to... All empirical data is imperfect. We have to operate off of, if we're going to use empirical data, we have to operate off of the best that we can if we're going to even bother using it. I can say, but Andrew, I can say that that's why I cited multiple sources in my book. Yeah, I read the same bright thing. So, and if they all kind of fall into line with each other and they're all the same ratios, then that makes a big difference. But of what percentage, that's what I'm saying. So like, I was one... Okay, so we can't ask 100% of every woman who files for course why, but we can get a large enough sample size that it establishes a pattern. And also you have to look at the women that are willing to answer these types of questions. I wouldn't have... Well, you have to know in most, in nofold, the worst states, you usually cite some kind of reason. Well, on these things, hang on, these things are all controlled for. These are controlled for. It's controlled so that we can eliminate these types of outliers. Yeah, but listen. It's the group that were interviewed by lawyers. Yeah, it's not just that though. They take a combination of these things and you have controls that are put in, like you do with all empirical reporting or empirical data. Not, well, I mean, in some of it's imperfect to your point, but I feel like unless you have an actual empirical argument to bring against it, it's kind of moved. Well, we've spoken so much tonight about things that are personal to us, about our own observations. Well, you have. You have. Right. And so it does kind of fall in line with that. And that was honestly kind of triggering in my mind, like, but that data is not, you know, full proof that it's not... Well, I get it. I want to lead this back, if you don't mind to radical coder. Yeah, absolutely. I just wanted to talk about that for a moment. Nobody's making the claim radical coder that it's a monolith. Okay. What I'm saying is that all of these different groups, going back to your point, let me just make sure that you remember what your point was before, because there was a diversion. You were explaining that you yourself thought that, well, you know, all that matters is, you know, helping people who are in a single situation or they're single. In other words, they're single. They have kids. Things like that. Okay, yeah, yeah, right. But going back to this, I need you to concede this point that different people are going to have different in groups based on social situation and status. Based on social situation and status. I don't think I gave any indication that I disagreed with the statement. Okay, right. So because this is true, I need to go back to what I'm saying with, I have engaged with like the red pill community, the blue pill community. And when I'm talking about these communities, I'm talking about the degenerates who are like trying to teach people how to pick up women, to pick up artists, this kind of shit, right? Those are the type... People treat women who cheat on their husbands. Okay, hang on, hang on. These are terrible. Terrible of them, right? No, these are the kind of guys... Are they? Listen, these are the kind of guys who will walk over and high five you if you scored the night before, even if you were cheating on your girlfriend. They don't fucking care. Now this is not, again, a monolith, some of them may, but by and large, they don't care. But if you move over to the married demographic or the Christian demographic, there's a huge amount of social stigma from Christian married couples against other Christian married couples who step out of their wife or abandon their family or things like this. It's important that you acknowledge that that's true because these are the types of virtues that we espouse. And I'm not sure that you even disagree with them. And before you respond, actually, I will say we have about five more minutes left of open discussion. It has been a lively and fun back and forth, but we're about to go into the Q&A section. So if you would like any or all of our interlocutors to answer your question or comment, please send in your chat at Amy Newman or your super chats, which will get you priority. And not only that, please don't forget to like, follow and subscribe. But once again, panel, if you have a question for each other, now is the time to get it in. So I guess I'll start by saying, I think it's interesting the point you bring up about like the Red Bull community. I mean, this massive community with all the Andrew Tate stuff, this clearly is attracting a very large amount of men. And I feel like this is, if this is not counter to what Rachel was saying earlier, that like men are the ones who are shamed and tortured for treating on their wives, but they can find these support networks, obviously if they go to these communities, so they can still find those. But more importantly, I think that if people are in marriages that they don't wanna be in, I think the problem is that we don't have support structures for these people to be, to take care of their children after this fact, whoever it is initiating divorce, whoever is leaving, we don't have the systems in place to help them after the fact. And I think that's a bigger problem, right? But there are people who will support them in either direction, I guess. So we talk about the women who are gonna high five, oh, you left your husband, and we talk about the men who are gonna high five, oh, you cheated on your wife or your girlfriend, like both of these exist. Both of these support networks exist. So this doesn't really speak to like whether or not men are undervalued. It does, we could bring it back to like who is more likely, I guess to find those support networks. And I would say it's much easier to find the support network of the red pills type of people. Even if it is like your wife that you are leaving out on, like you're gonna go and become the gigachat in these groups, right? Where you're gonna go and find as many women as you want and get high fives for it and do all these things. Well, I think the woman is probably less likely to find a massive network of online people who they can instantly find camaraderie and fraternize with in this regard. So that's interesting. It doesn't really speak to like whether or not men are undervalued, I guess, but... Yeah, that's actually what I was gonna say is that this really doesn't address the topic. And I keep trying to look back to the topic. Okay, yeah, I'm sure. I think that we have, again, I presented a lot of evidence in my opening, which I think clearly demonstrates that there is a bias in favor of giving women every break possible, right? I could cite more. There are special scholarships for women, special business loan opportunities for women. If you're a woman, you just have a natural hand up because there's this underlying assumption that women are disadvantaged or historically disadvantaged. Your startup business loans are quite lower, though, than the males. Yeah, which is why these affirmative actions have been coming from some people. But that's because women don't want to, okay. But listen, guys, what I'm saying is the topic of the debate is supposed to be are men treated poorly, ignored? We understand Rachel. Right, so we keep talking about what happens after a divorce or why people get divorced. And it's like we have very clear evidence that if you're a woman, if all you have to do as a woman is have a vagina and be moderately attractive and you're gonna have a much easier time in life than any man, at least for the first half of your life. That may not be true. But you're only gonna be valued for that vagina, right? That's not, and what kind of, a lot of women want a lot more than that, right? Well, I always argue against that. We should have gone into that then, right? We should have. We should have. Because I always argue against that. But the point is you guys still haven't presented like here's an example of how women are disadvantaged or how men are privileged. You guys haven't presented like a scenario that an argument shows that men are privileged. I get what you're saying and I agree with you. But honestly, I think the problem here is that personally I wasn't properly vetted. I honestly thought that I was gonna be on the other side of this because the majority of my content is on the other side. Yeah, and I did. It wasn't specifically stated to me that I was going to be in the no position. I'm being dead ass with you. I understood. Well, for me, I'm doing the best I can. I would like to ask you this though, Radical Coder, when you talk about Andrew Tate and organizations like MGTAL, these aren't support organizations for men. They are a response, a reactionary group to the status of what's happening to men. What they're doing is abandoning, they're abandoning virtue. They're abandoning masculine virtue. They're abandoning families. I can give you an example of this. Go on my Twitter and you'll see a guy a follow named Sandman. I've been listening to him for years in the MGTAL community for years. Not everything the MGTAL community says is incorrect because they rightly point out much of the time how much men are treated like shit. I disagree with them because they have no virtues whatsoever. And I've, hang on, hang on. And I've successfully argued this multiple times in the Red Pill community. I have a series of debates with the DGENs. I've won every single one of them because of this. Now, when we're talking about the virtues, understand this is a reaction to what's currently happening to men. This is not a support network for them. It's something that is, Andrew Tate is a reaction. All of these things are reactions. Not support groups that were designed to help men, but rather reactionary groups that spontaneously sprung up because they're so pissed off about how they're treated in society. That's why their gravitation goes that way. Dangerous. Sure. And I agree with the sentiment about how these groups can radicalize men and things like this. And they're not necessarily designed. We can contrast them to the support groups that Rachel mentioned, which exist in response to a historic discrimination towards women, right? These affirmative action programs and these types of things that are disproportionate towards women. Yeah, you remember my open? You remember my open? They've been, women have been oppressed for eight billion years and that'll end up being all right. Well, I mean, like women, literally. Come on, dude. Come on. You can mean about it, but it doesn't make it not true. It doesn't make it not true to mean about it. Answer to the reactionary portion of this. To the reactionary portion. I don't necessarily, like when I hear Andrew Tate or all these people, besides the specific value of one woman versus having a harem of women, right? Besides that one specific value, I think a lot of these things, a lot of the things that like Andrew's like criticized for saying, these are like really classic patriarchal values that people have been saying for fucking hundreds of years. And he's just saying that and they sound more shocking now because there's been a bigger push towards, or a bigger push against us. Because progressives have done everything possible to devalue masculinity and the virtues of men. No, but the part of the thing you don't like that he says are also perfect in that. Where if a man even expresses traditional, masculine values people gravitate towards that, even if the man's a shit bag, even if he's a horrible shit bag. I came out against Andrew Tate from the very beginning and said, this is not a virtuous man. Like a feminist. He's not saying virtuous things. No, it's the opposition to feminism. It's virtue, you understand the difference? Do you know what, what's a virtue? I think it's grossly affected us politically too. We could probably go back and forth. In fact, I have enjoyed this debate on our men ignored slash unappreciated today. However, we are about to move into the Q and A section. However, before we do that, I would like to ask each of our interlocutors if you would like to tell everyone where and what you got going on on the interwebs and then your final thought on the topic, the floor is yours, whoever picks it up next. Can I go first? So I am not your everyday Ashley XOXO, I have a year two. Apparently not. It's okay. You can find me there, not your everyday Ashley XOXO. I just, I really don't give a shit about most of this, but I do want to say, Rachel, you have very good taste. Your outfit is just killing it tonight. I love the hairdo. We did not dress like twins on purpose. Yes, we did. We were texting before this stream even, sending pictures back and forth. Andrew, it was a pleasure to meet you. You are a little bit unsufferable, but I'm not gonna lie, I had fun. You guys are a lot of fun. And sorry, not sorry for calling you a bitch, but a little sorry. It'd be like that sometimes. It do be like that. Yeah, so I'm Ryan, radical coder. I have a lot going on. I like teaching coding and politics, or I talk about politics, I teach coding and mathematics and things like this. And I wanted to real quick touch on the CRT thing, cause we just had something happen in Florida where Rhonda Sanchez is like banned an AP African American history class on the basis of it being critical race theory. So, you know, he's literally like banning black history, which was something people should probably start paying attention to. But more to, yeah. So I like talking about a lot of different things, but unfortunately there's this massive culture war being waged by the right because they don't have any policies. They don't have any actual interesting things going on in terms of that. So if you look at the GOP platform, it's pretty boring, pretty disgusting. Doesn't really have much going for it. So they have to wage war on these culture issues. They have to put men versus women. They have to do all the stuff, which is why. I was very uncomfortable taking a hard no rigid position instead of like opening a discussion about the issues that men and women face in society and trying to go through all the different bullet points that Andrew hammered out at the beginning. And which I thought would be interesting if we could walk through them one by one and talk about them, but it's obviously not what we were here for. And I guess I'll leave it at that. You can subscribe to me, Radical Coder on YouTube. We got a lot coming in the pipeline, so stay tuned. Holy Adderall Batman. Okay, my name's Rachel Wilson. I have a book you can find on Amazon. It is called Occult Feminism, The Secret History of Women's Liberation. I am launching my own show January 26th. It will just be Rachel Wilson on YouTube. You can also see me next Wednesday on Jay Dyers. I'm a YouTube channel, which is like, I'm super excited for that big Jay Dyer fan. And I do a lot of debates on this sort of topic and it is very important to me. So I was happy to be here. And my closing thoughts are just that, if we look at the statistics, if we look at a number of examples, it's pretty clear that there's a big imbalance in power now between men and women. Women are pretty unequivocally privileged in society. Men are disprovalaged and it's all based on this false assumption that there was a patriarchy that oppressed women throughout history until the last 100 years, which is not true. If you buy my book, I detailed the entire history of the last several thousand years. So if you're into that, go ahead and go to Amazon and find my book. What's the name of your book again? Sorry. It's called Occult Feminism, The Secret History of Women's Liberation. That'd be my turn now. My name is Andrew Wilson. I am the host of the one and only Crucible, one of the finest debate channels that has ever existed in the history of the internet. Also the fastest growing do work with other debate channels like modern day debate, which I recommend push people towards all the time because I'm just that benevolent. A couple of things that I wanted to close with real quick, understand that our opponents really had no argument. We started with a conspiracy theory from Radical Coder, which was that there was some type of background noise, which alluded to me somehow, you know, I mean, you can shake your head, but this whole debate has been thematic in the, I didn't even know what I was here to argue, which is very bizarre to me and doesn't seem like the standard that James puts down on his 100,000 subscriber channel. Just saying, it's odd to me. It sounds very tinfoil, haddish and conspiratorial. Now, more than that, to address many of these arguments, there weren't very many made, but the few that were made were of course by the man, Radical Coder, if you can call him such. He talked about reactionary groups, claimed those reactionary groups were somehow a support network for men who were ostracized rather than being a condition of men who were ostracized, making them gravitating towards him because there's nothing else for them. When we got into talking about the division of groups, they agreed with us. In fact, largely they agree with us on almost every single thing we say. They just have caveats and try to put it through some type of progressive prism, especially Radical Coder, but he has such bad ADHD and he spurred so much, it's actually hard to keep track of his own arguments. Now, I don't hate Ryan. We've, me and Ryan have engaged many times, even on Discord privately, he's always been decent with me. I clown on him a bit and he knows I'm gonna clown on him a bit. He tries to do it back, it's funny, okay? Like the opening, you know, you're gay, which I stand by, it has nothing to do with trying to beat up on homosexuals. That's not even what gay or when a guy calls another guy gay, they don't mean that. When they call him like the Efsler, they don't actually mean anything disparaging towards homosexuals and fucking, the thing drives me the most crazy about it is like, you guys know that shit. You know it, you've been on all the Discords, you know that they don't call people that shit because they actually think they're gay and I wish we would just stop pretending. Lack of argument from the other side, we won handily, we won right in the intro just like I predicted, we won right after our opening statements just like I said we would, we're fucking awesome, we dominated you, we win. So from there, I'll hand the floor back to, the name on my end is still James Coons, right? I know it's not, welcome to modern day debate, the floor is yours. Had a little bit of a transition, we all wake up. Sending love out there to James Coons and Kaz and all of the moderators out there like Hannah and Sideshow and Serge and everyone. But with that, I do wanna remind you all that all four of our interlocutors, links are in the description below and so if you liked what you heard tonight, you can go find more. But with that, we are going to head over to the Q&A section starting with Thunderstorm, $410. Men and certain women are being treated horribly in capitalist Bolshevik society because they are pulled away from their ethnicity, a community culture by the state. Capitalist Bolshevik society. I'm not sure if they're insured. To caveat it though, there is some truth to what's being said. There needs to be at least some type of cultural homogeneity that happens in order for people to even get along. I mean, we have to at least be able to speak the same language. We have to have at least some of the same base values. This is extremely important. It's something that's glossed over. Even Ryan, when he's pressed, wouldn't be able to disagree with that. He just thinks that the status quo is fine. Everybody integrates just fine and even more would probably be fine. But it is important to understand that cultural integration is important regardless of capitalism or communism. It can't be done. Even Vosh would tell you this is true. I was just curious about the phrasing because my second book, which is coming out later this year is actually about the Bolsheviks and they were not capitalist. They were funded by capitalists however, which a lot of people don't know. But I'm a little bit confused about the phrasing on that, so I'll just go with what Andrew said. I just wanted to say that I am way too stupid to answer that question. I just wanted to say that I completely agree with you. Yeah, so can I answer the question? Yeah, so I would agree that there are capitalistic forces that devalue both men and women in a lot of different ways. I don't think that the solution to that involves organizing people based on their ethnicity in any way. I think that's, I think it's more, I think the problem therein lies with is a conflict between people who are undervaluing workers for them and those workers wanting to survive and feed themselves and feed the people around them, take care of the people around them and are being, in many cases, pretty deeply exploited by their employers. But I don't think that this is an ethnicity thing. I'll agree with Andrew that some basis of communication is really important. That doesn't mean that we need a national language or anything like this. I think it's really valuable to have people speaking different languages. And I don't think that people speaking different languages means that there's no way to communicate. Yeah, man, I wish we could come back for that debate. Yeah, sure. Obviously people can bridge that gap. People can find, obviously you can learn some of each language. People who live near a lot of immigrants tend to pick up a lot of language from those immigrants as well. So I think that's something that is valuable. Thank you for that Super Chat Thunderstorm and that answer in a lock-it-ers and a $10 Super Chat from Experiments in Prebiotic Chemistry. Thank you, Rachel, for your presentation. You are awesome. Love ya. Got a fan out there. Now hang on, that was directed towards Rachel and not Ashley. So see that, see, you deserve it. And I'm sending love to all of our interlock-it-ers as we move forward to Ozzy, gold member for two months, three for extra juicy. Thank you so very much. Who ordered the Ego Festival? Uh-oh, the spice is real. Send in love, Ozzy, though. There enough. James would say juicy. J-Juicy. Juicy, yes. Juicy fruicy, right? That's James' thing. So thank you so very much, Ozzy, gold. Send in love right back and thank you for being a member. $5 Super Chat from Reason. Radical coder, grow up and just answer. Stop being a child. I think this was to the is-ought thing at the beginning which I wanted Andrew to just kind of get to the point because he was doing like a meme thing where he walks me up to the point and I just asked him to just make his point and he didn't want to, so. Well, just so you guys understand, if I had been asked that question by any of my opponents, I would have given an answer because I understand basic philosophy. But that's just me, just me. When I do hear that, I will know. Thank you. Thank you for the Super Chat and the responses. $2 from Tim Zilmich. Ashley is having a blonde moment. Several. Agreed. We agree. We 100%. Look, the yes side and the no side can all come together on this one fact. And I am just sending love out there. Thank you for your responses and another membership chat sent in from Coffee Mom. Thank you so very much for your support. Oppression of men started when women got rights? Well, no. Is there a question mark there? Yes, there was a question mark. It's actually a far more complex thing than this. It's what you do with what you're given. And we've seen what happens with this detrimental and horrific experiment when what is considered the patriarchy, which is what the entire world operates off of, by necessity, because only men can do the things that are required to keep society running are then systematically oppressed by what radical copper would call the minoritization of those men, even by the majority, which are women, which is, this is exactly our point from the very beginning, which is, look, just because you say or try to make this correlate, oh, women got rights and then things went downhill. Well, kinda, yeah, that's, I mean, that's pretty much true. But this is because they use those rights in an oppressive way to deterministically go after the male infrastructure of which they rely to exist. I think that the initial premise or idea of feminism, which is just equal rights for all was a beautiful one. And I think that I don't believe in repealing the 19th Amendment or any of that bullshit, but I do think that modern day feminism has perverted and twisted. I don't think that these modern day feminists want equality. I think that they want superiority. And that in and of itself is just, it's another cycle starting all over again. And I think everyone needs to pull their head out of their asses. Well, I would agree with Ashley on the last part of what she said, but I am completely against first wave feminism as well, because if you go back to the suffrage movement, there were actually much higher levels of membership in anti-suffrage women's groups in around the turn of the century, then there were pro-suffrage groups. And a lot of those groups put out pamphlets, posters, stating the reasons that they didn't want to be involved in politics. So the reason that they didn't want to vote and some of the best reasons for that in my opinion were they did not want their homes divided. They could foresee that if you gave women the vote, there would be women voting for safety, protection, be nice, right? And there would be men voting for productivity, less taxation and things of that nature. They also said, why give us the vote when we are not capable of defending the homeland? It's not something we can do. So why give us this responsibility? They had a lot of really sound reasons for not wanting to have to be involved in politics and having to have political power when they felt that the family unit was the most important thing. So I think that even first wave feminism was not only a bad move, but it was a lot of the suffragettes were occultists. They were fortune tellers, they were fraudsters. They were con artists, basically. So if you go read my book, you can read all about who they were and what they did. Yeah, so I guess first of all, to what Rachel was saying, thank God in America, it's not illegal not to vote. So women who don't want women's suffrage, go ahead, please don't vote. We probably don't want your votes. So that's totally fine, you don't have to. I do think there is something funny about wanting to give up the responsibility that you might have the society to let your voice be heard, wanting to kind of let things be as they are and a lot of women not wanting to have involvement with that, I'm a little bit sympathetic to that. Like maybe it would be nice to live in a world where things just kind of work out around you, but we never really lived in that world. That world's never existed for most people. I think, again, like we talked about like the traditional family structure and how that was kind of a privilege for a lot of people. It didn't necessarily exist, especially at the lower class. It was definitely not for like black women or native people. And like- Ryan, you and I should debate that. That should be our next debate. I just wanted to respond to this super chat real quick. Not only that, Andrew, but since it was your super, well, you can respond radically after, but it does have to end on the yes side. It'll be super quick. It'll be super quick, I promise. So imagine being so stupid that out of the first side of your mouth, you say that women shouldn't vote if they don't want to and then at the other side of the mouth saying, I can't imagine you abandoning your duty to vote. This is so- No, I said I can't. I can't imagine. No, no, you said you couldn't. I can't really imagine that you would abandon your actual duty. I said I can sympathize with it. But if you are people who are, you can sympathize with it. There's a big difference between how you're framing it, between what you just said, it's unimaginable to me that you're that dense and that stupid that you would say the one thing and then give the propaganda for why they should out of the other side of your mouth. It's insane. Yes, so the women who don't want to vote should not vote to stop other women from voting. That's my point to be clear. Why shouldn't they? You disparaged women who don't want to be involved in politics. And on that- You disparaged them, so. I don't disparage you. Well, on the opposite for a $5 super chat from experiments in prebiotic chemistry, Rachel, do you have a Patreon? I would love to donate. I do have a Patreon. I don't do a lot on there. You'd be better off going to my sub-stack and subscribing to that as a paid subscriber. I think I'm going to move everything from Patreon over to sub-stack. So thank you so much for your support and your patronage, but yes, go to rwilson.substack.com and that's where I'm posting all my writing and everything now, so. She has my patriarchal last name, by the way. It's terrible. It's horrible. It's horrific. But somehow she gets through the day. Thank you for your super chat and the response, a $10 super chat from Melody. Kate, I don't want to support such anger and hatred by supporting this particular type of rage. This was not a debate. I want to support the channel and Amy sent in love and support right back at you, Melody, but for, I thought it was a good debate for what I will say. I agree with super chatter and the interlocutors, which yes, and Going Love, a $2 super chat for radical coder at When You Kiss, a woman. What? You're wondering if the last woman You Kiss name was Chuck. That's what the super chat was. Again, Andrew disparaging me for allegedly being gay. I didn't disparage you. I asked you a simple question. I mean, you're saying that I kissed someone named Chuck and you're laughing about it because you think it's funny, right? You think it's funny. Yeah, I do think it's funny, I think it's funny. And yeah, I don't know what the question is. I don't know what the question actually is. Come on, Ashley, it's funny. You would say it to him because I mean, come on. If we were all at dinner and I said it to radical coder, everybody would be like, wow. And so I'm gonna, and I'll be very specific because I saw Dustin was sending personal questions, but this was a super chat and we do love our super chatters for the support. So for radical coder at When Would You Kiss a woman? Okay, so I think they're asking like, like, like, are they asking? I think the question is like about whether or not I would like, like jump forward and kiss like, whether or not. Not malfunctioning in PC and just answer the question. Yeah, I'm sorry, dude. Hey, hey, let me exist. All right, bro, come on. I kiss women when I feel that I have their consent. Doesn't mean I have to ask them like word for word. Can I kiss you now? Like I'm not fucking stupid. And then you can read body language. You can understand with a little bit of empathy, you can understand how people are feeling and whether or not they're interested in kissing you. I do think that a lot of men are a little presumptuous about when they try to kiss women and a lot of men are under presumptuous. And there are, you know, both of these things exist. So people should be more conscious of how the people around them are feeling when they're making sexual advances. My consent, all morality boils down to consent. Consent is based, amen. Terrible, I will outdebate you on that too, radical coder, because boiling all morality down to consent is so easy to defeat. I could defeat that with one arm tied behind my back in my sleep while drunk. So let's do it. I would only do that to you if you consented. And you have the last point, because it was your question at a $2 super chat, radical coder, oh, from Brandon. Radical coder, what's your lead code score? Honestly, I just started using lead code. Recently, I actually kind of want to go through a bunch of that on stream. So right now, let's say it's zero and subscribe to my channel and we can do some lead code live streams. I think that'll be fun. Thank you for the super chat and response. A $5 super chat from Samar. Who's excited for the JF versus Ben Bergus? Make sure to like and follow Bada's. Thank you so very much. Yeah, by the way, just a comment on that. JF, I have a great relationship with him and couldn't recommend watching that debate enough. Even though JF will come in with some neurological bullshit, it will be a lot of fun. Even I'm going to be tuning in for that, right? Even I am. I like Ben. Thank you all for the support and sent in love. That's definitely one you all should set your notification bells for. And another one from Samar, $10. Not a big Tate fan, but to all debaters, why do you think his message was spreading like wildfire before his deplatforming? Does misogyny really cover it? Well, I guess since nobody else jumped in, I'll jump in. Number one, I think that Andrew Tate was actually signal boosted by the establishment because he is helpful to their cause. He is promoting stuff like Islam, harems, polygamy. It's not something that I don't believe that Andrew Tate was an organic phenomenon at all. And number two, I think that there's a lot of angry, disaffected, incel type of men out there, which is what we've been talking about this whole debate is the effects of disaffecting a large majority of the male population and then seeing what happens. So it's just like what happened in a certain time period in Germany where it's like you have a horribly disaffected population and you can install any strong man and people will just flock to him. So I don't think he's virtuous. I don't think his message was good, but I think that we've created a horrible situation where somebody like Andrew Tate can be signal boosted and catch a lot of fire, unfortunately. And to add to this, recognize that. Everybody's weakest, exactly. I'm sorry, I just agree. Strike while the iron's hot. We were at a point of severe weakness in our country, you know, which again, I think has to do with where I go into the voting. Like I really, I've heard previously democratic leftist males say that they're purposely voting very right wing now specifically because of modern day feminism. I've heard them say that, you know, and I think that's part of the Andrew Tate phenomenon. Sorry. Well, let me, no problem. Let me just kind of reaffirm what the wife is saying. You can actually go, me and my co-host, my current co-host, Zen Shapiro, how to debate on this, on my friend Red Pill Gang TV's channel, fantastic channel, by the way, on Andrew Tate at the beginning of the phenomenon. And at that time, I basically expressed this was a reaction and he would be a massive letdown. And I actually equated it to what happens when these Christian Protestant megalopreachers end up getting caught sucking a dick in a parking lot and how humiliating that is for the right wing and said that that would be the exact experience we would have with Andrew Tate. You can go there, Red Pill Gang TV's channel and see that debate, it's posted on his channel so that you understand my wife's exactly right. He was a reaction and everybody was pushed by the establishment towards that reaction. Yeah, so I agree that Andrew's popularity was a reaction. I don't think he was like a plant or whatever. These guys are suggesting this kind of conspiracy-minded thing. I think- Says the guy who thinks that a debate host is a conspiracy, is engaged in a conspiracy. The loaded topic is a different thing. But to Andrew Tate point specifically, I think that a lot of the rhetoric around the rise or the impact of feminism is centered around saying that it really or treating it as if it demonizes men a lot more than it really does fundamentally. And so when men are receiving this message that feminism hates them, that women hate them, not really from women so much as other men who are feeding into this idea. I think that when some guy comes along he's telling them self-improvement advice but he combines it with a lot of misogynists except when he combines it with a lot of things that are anti-feminists. These guys are going to be attracted to that kind of thing because they feel as if feminists all hate them. Feminists don't hate you. Intersectional feminists are most, probably most people who identify as feminists are intersectional feminists. And they don't hate you. They don't want you to be miserable. They want the best for more people. They want equality for people of all races, all genders, all sexualities, all of these things. And they want people to be recognized. They want specifically the impacts of all of these things on their lives. So you recognize these things. Bullshit. It's all bullshit. It's all bullshit, I'm sure. Traditional feminists like J.K. Rowling because she says that everything that women fought for was completely and totally destroyed. I'm not gonna be here on J.K. Rowling. Yeah, of course you're not. Of course you don't want to. We're gonna do it later. I mean, I will another time. Not right now. On my channel before, where I disagree with you vehemently that there aren't more political conspiracies going on. You always, always, always take the stamp. Well, you should vote to get those people out of power then. You should make sure you're voting. Just vote harder, you guys. Vote harder, bro. Just vote harder or no. Oh yeah, vote harder. Get more people who are voting to get it to use support. Amen. Stop trying to vote. Just fix it with voting. People who listen to you guys should not vote. And this is why I think you're gay, Coder. This is why. This is what I mean by that. Well, you made a nice, can't help but use that word again, Transitionary Statement, because black silver for $5. And I will say after this, we only have a few more super chats and one or two chats left. And so if you have your burning desire question for one of all of our debaters, please send them in now because we will be wrapping up. However, $5 from black silver would radical Coder, fist fight Andrew to prove himself not gay. I will do it with one hand tied behind my back. I will give you the Beardson beardly challenge if you'll show up with your dork glasses and get stopped on in front of cameras. I will happily raise the funds. Coder, when would you like to do this? I like your back, Brian. Thank you, Ashley. So I don't hinge my masculinity on whether or not I could beat up Andrew. I'm not really interested. I'm a lover, not a fighter, so that's not what I'm here for. Please, come on. You want to beat me up? I think that's kind of sad. No fun. I'm just living my life. Think about it. Hang on, hang on. What if we gave all of the money that was raised to some fucking transgender charity bullshit, right? Then you would show up and take your weapon, right? No, I'm good. No, still not, okay. Yeah, no, I'm not going to go get my ass kicked for no reason. Think about all the trans kids that you could benefit, though. I just want to put on an asterisk that all fist fights on modern day debate are done digitally. Based. Yes, and so, sending love, thank you so very much, Black Silver and your responses, guys, and $9 from Samar again. Thank you so very much for the support to the women on the panel. Would you trade your current day political say for a more structured, traditional lifestyle? Why or why not? What exactly is valuable about your position foundationally? Either one first. It was like actually to go first. Well, I would give my left arm to be able to be married to my husband again and be back in my family home with my children and my husband all together cohesively. I would. Even if that meant giving up my rights, yes. I would absolutely do that in a heartbeat. I miss it very much. Having said that, it isn't a possibility for me. And so this is my life now. And at this point, there is nothing for me to give up. There's no rights for me to give up. So no, if that scenario could never happen again, then I'm happy to continue living life as it is and fighting the good fight. Sam, Ashley just took the wind out of my sails. Actually, no, what she just said is the reason that I do what I do. It's because most women would say that, right? We've been propagandized for a hundred years with this boss bitch, go girl, strong woman stuff. And most of us really deep down, and I know this because after a year of having my book out and having received dozens of messages, emails, DMs, even letters in the mail from women around the world like South Africa, Europe, Canada, the United States of women just saying that what they really want is to be moms and to have an intact family and be with their children and have a healthy, good, happy marriage and this stable life for raising their family. That's really what they want, but they don't feel like they can say that because it's kind of looked down on as like you're weak or you couldn't hack it in the career world or like, you know, there's something wrong with you. You must be like low class if you're not like a CEO, Beyonce, you know, sexy boss bitch or whatever, right? And I think that just like a hundred years ago when we look at what women were saying at the turn of the century, that's really what most of us want. We don't really want like some corner office jet setting, fly to Paris to close the business deal type of life. Most of us really would choose our children and our families and that doesn't mean you can't do other things in your life, like my oldest daughter's 22 now. I'm old now, right? Like my youngest is already in her double digit ages and like doesn't need me constantly anymore. So I can do things like write a book. I can do things like these debates. Women have a lot of different phases in their life to think about. So do I think it was a good trade that we gave up family security, that we gave up marital security, that we gave up like our worth as women and our sexuality like for the purpose of reproduction and all of that for this like promise of being a Beyonce when 99% of us are never gonna be that. We're gonna be waitresses, we're gonna be secretaries. You know, we're gonna be like working in administrative job. No, I don't think it was a fair trade at all. I think it was a Faustian deal. I think it was a terrible bargain for us. I think that women have suffered the most because of it, of anyone. Even though we're here talking about how unfair it is to men, I think women have suffered tremendously because of this. And so, yeah, I would have 100% give up like some arbitrary right to vote, whatever that means in order to have that back. Yeah, I totally would. I would. I would if it meant having. Okay, so gay radical coper, what do you have to say to that? The women on the panel are both in agreement, even though they're in opposition. No one's stopping them from being, I mean like, sure, Ashley specific scenario. Like Ashley, I don't think Ashley blames the problems in her marriage on feminism. I don't think feminism is a reason that women are in like, I don't think that feminists are telling women not to be moms. Like, I think that's okay. If I could go back in time, I would do things differently. I would be more of a server, more of a wife than I was. Sure. And that's okay. I mean, if that's the role that you want. Let me just tell you. Hang on Rachel. You're a man. Can you wait for a second? Go ahead. If that's the life that you want to live, that's the role that you want to fill. That's really fine. I don't think you should be stopped from doing that. However, I don't think that any part of that suggests that if somebody doesn't want to fill that role, they should be pushed into that role by any means. Okay, Ryan. Part of a big part of what my book is about is that this myth that women weren't allowed to ever do anything is exactly that. It's a myth. Prior to women's liberation, there were women who owned property, owned businesses, inherited land, had their own money. The women were allowed to do lots of things. We, and I have several examples in the book of that exact thing. So the reason the history has been rewritten is because gender studies departments call this standpoint feminism. And they will tell you straight out that they've rewritten history from the standpoint of an oppressed woman. It sounds like critical race theory. It is. It's exactly like that. That's not critical. It's called standpoint theory. And so they've rewritten the history to make it, to make people feel like women have just been historically chained to a stove and forced to give birth and had no rights. That's not real. That's not true. That's not how things were. And so for you to sit there and say like, oh, well, you can still do that if you want to. Yeah, I guess, but how are we doing it? Don't you do these things? How are women like Ashley and I supposed to swim upstream against the entire social current? We've got Cardi B, Taylor Swift, what do you want to do that you're not able to do because of feminism? What do you want to do that you're not able to do? Stop that functioning. I don't want to do anything. Stop. No, I don't want to do it again. You can't do it because of feminism. This is so functioning. Ryan, if you be quiet, I will. So women are naturally inclined to be in group, right? I'm going to talk about women. Talk about you. What are you blocked from doing because of feminism? Name one fucking thing. I can answer that actually. I am I, go ahead. It sounds like Rachel is actually giving the floor over to Ashley, so that sounds good. Actually, it's all good. And so I think that probably part of modern day feminism has made it so much easier to walk away from a marriage. I think that if things were more traditional and good old fashion like the way it was, I don't think that my husband would have had the choice to get a divorce. And I think that after so many years of being married, you turn into different people. And I think I genuinely believe that he could have found a way to be happy. We both could have worked through that and found a way to be happy. I think that also I was confused a lot by what maybe what I felt like I should be doing. And maybe I didn't quite feel as fulfilled in my motherly or wifely duties as I otherwise would have been by kind of what part of what you're saying, Rachel. So I can see how it's a double-edged sword for sure. Pretty fucking base. Can Rachel answer the question though? Yes, I will answer your question. Ryan, so we're not talking about like legal restriction. We're talking about social norms. So when you sit here and talk about transgender people feeling like they're rejected feeling, that's why they have higher suicide rates, higher depression rates, because they feel social pressure, right? Well, usually feelings are involved in suicide, but you're not, so it's the same thing. If you don't let me talk, I hope so. If you will let me talk, the reason it's because intense social pressure, and I'm saying this as a woman, right? I grew up as a smart kid. I was always in the advanced classes. I was always put in like the advanced smart kid classes and it was like expected that I had to go to college. I had to get a degree. I had to have a job. And so when I decided, I don't want to do that. I want, you know, I had my first baby at 20 and I was like, I want to stay home and be with my kids and have a family. I was shamed, I was discouraged from doing that. I had intense pressure from family, from friends, and from society at large saying that makes you weak, it makes you vulnerable, it means you're a loser. It means that you are wasting your potential, right? So there's this intense pressure women feel from society at large that we have to be boss bitches. If you're not Beyonce, you ain't shit. If you're- Are you not a boss bitch? What's that? Are you not a boss bitch still? I'm not at all. So- Like you're gonna like say, like buy my book, you know, I'm like, I go on Fox News. I wrote a book, how do you think I wrote a book? So I'm gonna interrupt all of you. I gotta ask one question, Coder. Yeah. So tell me what you think my wife should make me for breakfast in the morning, this boss bitch. Well, I don't give a shit what you eat for breakfast, but she's obviously doing all the things that she wants to do at the end of the day. Because she has a permission slip from me. Because my husband- She wants to do all of the things she wants to do, right? I agree with that. So cool. So people can, so women who want to do what you're doing, if they can find a husband who wants to be in that position as well, they can make that work. And sometimes it won't work. And I'm sorry, that happens as well. But no, but you are not being forced out of that. I'm not even saying anything. So, okay. Okay, well, cool. Rachel and Andrew, if you had any final comment, but then radical, you have to make a comment that isn't a question. So one of you has to make not a question. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. The Tread lifestyle is based in awesome. We need to get back to it as quickly as possible. Radical code is wrong about everything he says. That's my final comment. Radical code, if you have the final statement. Sure. Plenty of people will want to live in those roles. Plenty of people want to fulfill those roles. Plenty of people don't want to fulfill those roles. And it's very important that we leave room for both of these things to exist. And on that, we have three super chats and two chats left. So if you don't send a super chat in now, it is not being in. Gotta get him in. Gotta get him in, guys. Gotta get him in. It's those super chats. And we want to thank, once again, our interlocutors for joining us, all of the community and the super chats and members out there. Mo Bash, I'm going to say this one earlier. So if I get it wrong, you can tell me, sending in love, he says, S-U-A-Z-L-L. S-U-A-Z-L-L. I don't know what that means, but I do appreciate you sending in the super chats, even to MDD. There's a common misperception that we're competitors. We actually work hand in hand together. And those super chats actually help support James' channel. I know I've talked with him many times. So me and my wife greatly appreciate you sending those in. Even if they're unintelligible and we don't even fucking know what you're talking about, we still like appreciate them. You know what I mean? Indeed, in fact, if we do your wrong, please always send me, tag me at Amy Newman. Once again, it's S-U-A-Z-L. Maybe it was the S-S-S-U-S-O. Ah, you see, I feel like it was the S I was missing on there. Sending love in for the super chats and Prestige Worldwide. Hold on, hang on, hang on, gotta say it right. Prestige Worldwide, Worldwide. That's how that goes. I will say we have one, basically, Andrew. You have one, a pro and a con. So you got it both ways. Hang in there, Andrew. Debating to women is grading. It's rough, but luckily I have a fantastic woman on my side to help me take these females on. Thank you. Actually, you know, that's a good point. I have three women here who got my back, right? So I can do these things. I can do these great feats, right? As well as well the head of the patriarchy should be doing that. So thank you so much for that, appreciate it. And I'm going to send love out to Prestige Worldwide and then Beamzy. Worldwide. For Andrew, is your approach to all debates with ad hominems and insults your way to discredit yourself and your position? Hey, he, she, they started it. Hey, they started it. You can't get mad at me because, look, if you want to take it to the mud, we'll take it to the mud. You saw when Ashley came correct and we started having a discussion, it was good discussion, right? I give out exactly what I get. The second I hear some bullshit, like in here has been the reason for that, you're going to get exactly what you, what you give. You want to go to the mud, happy to slug it out there. You want to have high tier intellectual philosophy debate. Let's do that too. I love doing all of the shit. You started it right off the bat. You set the tone to be fair. Typical, typical woman. I don't mind, Andrew. I've rolled in the mud with you many times and I do it again, King. Yeah, I know, but that's because I give you a significant amount of clout because I'm awesome and you graph to grasp the coattails of my awesome Star Wars sweatshirt, which by the way, my wife bought this for me utilizing her own money because she knew that I love Star Wars. You believe what a great woman, one day radical coder, such a woman will come into your life. Her name will be Stephen. It'll be a fantastic experience for you. Again, the joke is, by the way, the joke there, the punchline would be that I'm gay, right? It's not a well, it's not a joke. Okay, doubling down on the joke being that I'm gay, which he thinks is bad. And also he thinks being a woman is bad as we saw from the last Super Super Super. Don't think being a woman's bad. When he says gay, he just means that I have great respect for women who have great respect for men. Yeah, exactly. More send in love with AED1799 from Mo Bash. Why do many skinny conservatives pretend to be masculine? Coder is younger and looks way healthier than Andrew Lull. Looks like he could take him down. See, let me respond to this first and then I'll hand it over to my illustrious- I have to pee so bad. And brilliant opposition who declined. Remember this, right? Declined. So while it is that you might say that unhealthy perception is he drinks too much and he smokes too much, he's still up for a one hand tied behind his back boxing match. And remember the opposition, Vlad, not myself. So before you start throwing stones, remember who ran and who didn't, just saying. I wanna be clear that I never offered to fight anybody. I never said that I like fighting. I never said that this is the position I wanna be in. So I don't know. I don't think it's a- I think that's a brilliant response to the super chat. I'm not even shaming you. I'm agreeing with you. Like I said, I'm a lover, not a fighter. But I am a healthy fighter. Or a healthy lover. Just for the chat, because I keep seeing this in the chat and maybe the demographic of the channel is younger, we're fucking old. We have adult kids. We have kids that can drink legally in bars. Just saying. So if you're expecting us to be 22 and sexy, sorry, we're old. Hey, I'm 30 and sexy. I'm 30, flirty and thriving, all right? No, you're not- Is that a bare mattress? Hang on, hang on. Is that a bare mattress? You're none of those things. No, it's not, it's just white sheets. You're none of those things. You suck in every way that I could possibly conceive of. The fact you're even on here, you should be kissing James's ass that he allowed you to come on here at all instead of tin foil hat conspiring that he did something against you. Just saying. Again, to the allegations that I'm saying that James is conspiring against me, I never said that. I don't even think I alluded to that. I do think that a lot of the topics on this, I do think that a lot of topics on this channel are oriented towards a conservative narrative about the world and politics. Stop fucking whining. Stop fucking whining and engage more. You're right here. You're whining. You're right here and you put it in a gauge the whole time. And instead you spent the whole thing whining. And again, what I tried to do throughout this debate was go point by point through a lot of the things you guys brought up and I tried to have interesting dialogues about all of the things that you hammered through because I think there's a meaningful conversation. Why an important conversations to be had. However, I do think it's interesting that it's all this jet. The painting is all men versus women. Men and women are at it. They're all. It's interesting. He's mean. He's mean. James is mean. He conspired. I don't think James. I think James is a fine guy. I like James. You know, I don't hate James. I will debate. Why don't you send him a thank you email because you had no business being here. You're not anywhere near our tier. You're not anywhere near our tier. James invited me. James invited me. Yeah, I have plenty of business being here. You know why? You know why he invited you? Because he knows that I'm entertaining. That's it. And interesting. But just so you know, you should be thanking him because there would be no fucking way you would have a public debate with myself. I think everybody should thank James for inviting him on this program. Unless he had allowed you to be in here and instead of you going out of your way to tinfoil had him, send him an email saying thank you, James, I appreciate it so much. Do that for me, Cope. I will thank him and I will remind him that I wanted to debate him about the neutrality, the alleged neutrality of the modern day debate channel. And on that note, I want to thank James. I want to thank our interlocutors and our panel. These are, we have just three more questions left from Brandon. Can I be a stay at home cat dad and still be based? No. Absolutely. No. Dad, you're cat up. Come on, Ashley. Ashley, tell him no. Come on, do it. Just say no. You would have to have some type of funding. I mean, for sure. Maybe start in only fans, but not with your cat. That's pretty funny actually. And I'm sending in love to enslave by truth. I saw that, we were waiting. These are our last two questions and I think they're good for our last setting of the tone enslave by truth for $2. The real true question of the night. Who wore it better? Ashley or Rachel? Rachel has the Metallica T-shirt and even radical coders. Yeah, Rachel, I honestly, you look lovely. So I don't know. Oh, thanks. That's super nice of you. I'm an old lady. I'm old and so you have to be nice to me. I'm like 42 years old and I'm on the internet. So you guys have to- I'm on the internet. It's not- I'm on the internet and I'm old. I'm a boomer according to my children. So, you know. That's funny. I'm trying my best, okay? We did have a good laugh whenever we first cammed up and saw that we were dressing the same. Yeah, we were like, oh no, we match. What the hell? It's like you definitely were planning that with texts you were saying exactly. And with that- Can I say, can I cut up for just a quick second? Before you do, before you do, that me and Rachel will host a Q&A on our channel. A lot of my chat has been asking as we've been co-streaming. We will, of course, do a Q&A, answer all the super chats. We've always been this way. Sorry to cut in, moderator. Oh no, in fact, I will actually say if you, any of our interlocutors, or just if you in the audience would like to run an after show, we on Modern Day Deborts support all after shows. Send us over the link. We'll try and get them in the description below, but we will always shill for everyone who's shillin' for us. Did you say, did you say Modern Day Deborts? Modern Day, I think I said Modern Day Deborts. I sound like Modern Day Deborts, I'm just saying. It did. Modern Day Deborts, James, you gotta have to get up. You're gonna have to get on about that. I'm sorry. I will also be continuing to stream, if anyone wants to come hang out with the cool progressive. Nobody's coming over there. Nobody's coming over there. Maybe not, maybe not, but hey, you're awful. If you want to, you might want to go jump for it. Radical Coder just started streaming about two weeks ago and we're going to the fuckin' moon, all right? There we have it. We have both after shows for the affirmative and the negative sides, so if you are looking for even more juicy debate on this topic, go find those after shows. However, this is the last question from Day JB and I will take, we'll go, everyone to have their turn at the answer. What are traditional masculine values exactly? Okay, I'll take that one. I'll tell you what I think there. So traditional masculinity, and this is important to me because I think the word patriarchy has been abused. I think it's been turned into something it's not. And traditionally what masculinity was was more like the chivalric code where men have maximum responsibility. They were expected to give their lives for their family and for their country the way that Christ was expected to give his life for the church. Men are supposed to be the protectors and the providers. They are supposed to be virtuous. If you look at like the traditional Christian virtues either through the Orthodox or the Catholic church which pretty much agree on what, traditional virtues would be, that's what masculinity was supposed to be. It was supposed to be about self-sacrifice, protecting those weaker than you, defending those weaker than you, defending your family and your country. That's what traditional masculinity was supposed to be about. To me, I would agree with Rachel that it's about protecting your family and protecting your country. That's a huge one to me, if and when. I mean, I haven't been, but when I was married, I very much so missed the feeling of feeling protected and safe. Value, love, you know, those are important too, but protection and safety is something that I didn't even realize that I had until it was gone. And so I definitely understand the value of that more so now that it's gone, I hate to say it, but it's true, you know, than I did before. It didn't matter, it's almost like as a woman, it's almost like when you lived at home with your father or your mother and you felt safe. You felt like even if X, Y or Z happens, I have someone that's gonna, everything's gonna be okay. Like I don't have to worry about keeping it all together because my husband will somehow make sure everything's okay. And that is probably what I guess I would define if I'm looking at like a husband, that that's what I miss. That's definitely masculine to me. I mean, I largely agree with a lot of these characteristics of masculinity, being able to provide, being able to support and generally being just able to make the people around you feel good, safe and understood. And I think a lot of these things are not manifested by a lot of men, all these things are. And I think that a lot of the ways that these things manifest are unfortunately really harmful to men and the people around them and a lot of men who don't live up to these things are really shamed in a lot of ways that are unfortunate and that we should be treating our men better and our women better. And yeah, so masculinity is, it's not a bad thing. No one, even people who say like toxic masculinity, no one's talking about masculinity as a whole. I just want that to be very clear because so many people get this so skewed. They're talking about the ways in which masculinity manifests into toxic aspects that harm men and the people around them. And I think people should engage with that more because it's kind of a cowardly not to just kind of wipe off people talking about toxic masculinity as if they hate masculinity. I think this is a very beta way of engaging with the topic. And caveat to that, I just, I wish that the family unit would raise more traditionally masculine boys. And I think that that's really hard. Yes, so fucking big. Listen, sorry, go ahead. No, I was just gonna say like, I think that another thing that's going on right now with the modern day feminist movement is that we are not raising traditional men, you know? And that scares me for the future too. It's sad, but that's all I had to say about that. I'm sorry. Holy shit, Ashley turned out to be based in an awesome. Can I respond to the exact answer? So like honestly though, honestly, I wanna give her a lot of credit for being so honest. Well actually, hang on, let me respond. Usually I would tie this in and say that all of you are wrong because none of you are speaking to virtue with masculine traits and without virtue, there is no masculine trait. But I wanted to read you just very briefly, Ashley, for my response time. Some of the comments from my chat. Holy shit, Ashley's based. Pray for Ashley. We had Ashley wrong. Ashley's totally correct. Ashley does wanna see the best for men. Ashley, some more prayers for you. Here's more prayers, Ashley. Ashley, the Christians have you. Come over to our side. We're all about the network. We're all about helping. And Ashley, you have proven yourself as being fucking based and epic at the end of this. We have changed your mind and we're so happy, Ashley. Sorry that got to me. I thank you. It just brought out more stuff than I thought it would tonight. Good job, Ashley. We got you. And we are on. I love you, Brian. I still love you, Brian. We are on your side. I don't think we disagreed all that much. Hold chain on. Brian, shut up. Let her talk. Hold chats on your side. You're the one talking over her. We're on your back. We've got your back. I can't, you gotta go read all those comments. They're right there for you. And on that note, I wanna just send love to all of our interlocutors and thank them along with our amazing mods and you, our audience, for joining us here tonight on modern day debate. We are a neutral, non-partisan platform welcoming everybody from all walks of life. If you're looking for even more fantastic, may I say juicy debates, we are now all over the internet, including your favorite podcasting platform. So if you enjoy the show, then please don't forget to like. And fuck you, Ryan. Follow and subscribe. Hope and see you, Andrew. Sending so much love. It helps us. Amy, you can even lie to our audience. You're a lot of fun. Thank you. Thank you. So much of you. Thank you, thank you. Including to nice debate, our med ignored slash unappreciated today with our debaters, Andrew and Rachel and radical coder and Ashley here to help us find that answer. Plus, if you like what any of our guests have said tonight, all of their links are in the description below and it sounds like they're having after shows. BTW, have you checked out our new MDD TikTok? When we hit a thousand followers, we'll gain access to live stream straight to your phone. Finally, if you're looking for even more fun after the show, feel free to check out our MDD Discord as well. With that, I am Amy Newman with modern day debate. We hope you continue having great conversations, discussions and debates. Bye-bye.