 Okay, I will shortly begin as we get everybody flowing into the meeting. We have a quite rich menu today, so we'll be starting very soon, so if you're a little bit late for the meeting, you might have to catch up a little bit, but there'll be a video link sent to everybody who's registered at the end of the meeting. So I shall now begin the meeting as we get more people flowing in from the meeting room. We have potentially a very large audience today, folks. So I'm Tony Addison. I'm a non-resident senior research fellow at UNU-Wider, Professor of Economics and the Development Group at Copenhagen University, former Chief Economist of Wider and Deputy Director. I'm leading a project on the extractive industries and previously published on this area a book with Helen Rowe, which we'll put into the chat. Helen is joining us today. So I'd like to just start by saying that COP26 is obviously a very, very large policy pie. We're going to have a month of intense discussion in Glasgow and also via social media and other auspices on a vast range of issues. In today's meeting, we're going to take only one slice of that policy pie, namely oil, gas, and mining, including coal mining. What we talk about is the extractive industries. And from the wider side, which focuses on development economics, we are obviously particularly concerned about the balance on the one hand between climate policy action, which is the focus of COP, but also on the achievement of the sustainable development goals, the SDGs. And that's a particular concern for the developing world, given the dependence of much of the developing world on the extractive industries. We have a research program. Please do visit us on the website and visit us on the Twitter feed and other social media. We will be placing links to all of this in the chat as we go along. And I'd like to thank NORAD for its support to the extractives work at WIDA. The format today is our panel will make their presentations, which will then be followed by some questions and answers, depending upon the amount of time that we have left. Please put your questions into the chat. And I will put a selection of questions to the panel, depending upon how much time that we have available. Given there will be a very large group available today, I cannot give participants from the floor access to the voice or the camera. So please, if you have a question, we're delighted to have your questions. Please do put them into the chat. Okay, so with those preliminaries, I'd like to say righty-ho. Here we go. And to start with the first member of our panel, Alan Rowe. I'm going to be trying to introduce each member of the panel as we proceed. So before their presentation, so you get an idea of who is here. Alan Rowe is a non-resident research fellow, senior research fellow at WIDA. He's also a professorial fellow at the University of Warwick in the economics department. His career as an economist, academic economist and as a policy advisor spans over 50 years, during which time he's held positions as principal economist at the World Bank, principal economist and a board director at Oxford Policy Management. He has also undertaken a very large number of case studies, particularly on the extractive industries. And he is the co-author of the publication for Oxford University Press by myself on the extractive industries, the management of resources as a driver of sustainable development. And again, we'll put the links to that book in the chat. It's open access. Please do download it. So without further ado, I would like to hand the floor to Alan, and we will be bringing up a PowerPoint presentation by Alan shortly. Thank you. Thank you very much, Tony. And good afternoon. Good evening. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It's a pleasure to have this opportunity to speak. As Tony pointed out, we're just three days away from this month-long introduction at Glasgow, COP26. And my intention at the next 10 minutes is really to just introduce a number of topics which seem to me at least to have been somewhat sidelined by the information we're getting about what is likely to happen at Glasgow. And Eva, if you can put the first slide up, the cover slide has been somewhat corrupted on my screen. I've only got about a quarter of it. I don't know if we can get the slides in the totality. While we're waiting for the slide, let me say what the first one indicates. I'm suggesting that the issues in Glasgow will focus mainly on obviously on climate change adaptation, mitigation, and of course the disaster risk management, which is associated with some of the climate dangers, which we're all by now very much alerted to. And these are reflected mainly in SDG 13, sustainable development goal number 13, which relates to the climate. And of course, in the discussions of what happened in Glasgow, they were also sucking in other SDGs. For example, there's a lot of work being done by the multilateral banks on making some agricultural activities less sensitive to massive climate change. So issues like farmers' welfare and fair jobs and so on will come into this discussion. But many of the other SDGs somewhat sidelined. And I want to talk a little bit today about some of those other issues referring to those effects and responses that the global community perhaps should be encouraged to make in order to respond for those effects. So if you go to slide number three, Judah, please. The first effect, I think, which is very important to mention, and it's been referred to in some of the publications that Wider's already produced, is that the renewable revolution associated with wind turbines, electric vehicles, solar energy, together are creating an undoubtedly huge increased demand for many metals. The big and authoritative study by the World Bank on this in 2020 identified at least 17 main metals, which will see massive increases in demand for them up to 2050 by the orders of 200 to 300%. And the second point to make about these is the global supply of these metals is present time wholly inadequate. This is especially true of lithium, cobalt and nickel. Recent word, not least last week by Wood McKenzie, has shown the enormous gaps that exist between these metals, which are critical for batteries and inputs into wind turbines and the amount of production that is currently being made available by the mining industries around the world. And there is estimates that suggest that we're going to need billions of dollars of new mining investments globally over the next two to three decades. One example is that we might need 20 new lithium mines, each one as large as the current largest lithium mine in the world. This is an alarming prospect. But the good news, of course, for the STGs and for the less developed countries is that many of these countries are richly endowed with these metals. And much of the new mining investment that is anticipated could or will occurring countries like Zimbabwe, Guinea, the DRC, Tanzania, Zambia, which we'll hear more from Andrew later in the afternoon, Côte d'Ivoire. There's an excellent paper on this, tell us more deeply into this point, Magnus Ericsson and Olaf Loeff, also published by Wider last year. So that's the first of the effects that's coming out from the climate change adjustments and policies of the richer countries. The second one, it relates to the fact that the massive growth in the world economy will seem to be dominated by Asia, especially China and India. And veto research shows that as coal declines in the relative importance in their energy use in these countries, not an absolute declining coal, but a relative decline in importance, there will be a large absolute and relative increase in Asia's demand for natural gas. And again, there's a paper by Etienne Romsen, Captain of the Failure Populator, suggesting that that increase could be as much as an 80% increase by 2030. Now, this creates further opportunity for developing countries, lower income countries and some lower middle income countries, such as Mozambique and Tanzania that have very recently discovered major deposits, huge deposits of offshore natural gas and are setting up the infrastructure to export large amounts of this energy to Asia. Those opportunities are very, very considerable. And the reports we have of some of the investments involved suggest that what in particular in Mozambique could be the largest single private investment ever seen anywhere in Africa. Next slide, please, Drutta. Next slide, please. What are some of the policy implications of this? How will the global communities, the donor agencies and the participants at major meetings, such as the Glasgow meeting, react to this? They should react, I think, by saying that the mining and gas opportunities I've just mentioned provide 20 or more developing countries with an unprecedented boost to their mainly private capital investment, in addition to any public only capital that may be coming towards them as associated with the climate change agendas. So there's a 20 to 30-year window opportunity based on the extractive industries to enable these countries to contribute significantly to other sustainable development goals, not least one which is a reduction poverty, and eight which relates to decent jobs and faster growth, as well, of course, as to some of the health advantages. And we'll hear a little more about the Xamarin case of Andrew and Steve a little later in the afternoon. But the way I see it, there are two big obstacles in the way of this response from the global community. The first is that I think many commentators will see such investments in mining and oil and gas as contrary to the nationally determined commitments that countries are expected to make as a consequence of the Paris Commitments of 2015. We've seen already what happens with coal. I mean every donor agency is walking backwards from any connection at all with coal projects, and we could see the same happening with gas, we could see the same happening with some mining. The second obstacle is that they will have a big problem, even if they accept the need to help in this area, that donor agencies will see technical and financial support to these sectors, not as priorities, because they are facing such huge demands for finance, both for the climate change adaptation and the disaster risk management finance, as well as COVID recovery packages. And there's a question mark in my mind as to whether even support to the mining and gas industries in the countries that can benefit from them would even be mentioned at Glasgow in any real sense. The second policy implication relates to what Catherine and Etienne will talk about later on today. We know it's well established fossil fuels globally have no friends today. And yet we know historically if we go back to the free industrial revolution period that poverty was endemic in the world and the thing that changed that and brought most countries or very many countries and many people out of poverty were fossil fuels regrettably. And the question then remains what is the situation for fossil fuels and their continued use and for thinking here mainly of gas but also to some extent of coal in countries that still have a poverty agenda which is very substantial. I'll leave that as a pregnant suggestion in the air but I think there are two very specific points. The first is that and we've got a bit of examples of these countries which today have energy access rates of only about 30% but the same time of an awful lot of natural gas clearly are able in the next 10, 20, 30 years to achieve multiple benefits from the sustained use of that gas to reduce lower cost energy to enable more people in their populations to get access to electricity and the other things that power availability presents. I'm not sure if you have any Tanzanians in the audience today but Tanzania already provides a very strong example. It's gone from less than 20% energy access to 35% entirely on the basis of onshore gas which has also delivered benefits in terms of health because it's substituted alternative fuels and domestic in-house cooking which is very health polluting. It's also had a huge fiscal stimulus for the Tanzania economy because it's cut out the import of heavy fuel duty, heavy fuels and the need to subsidize the electricity generator. So I think there are examples where gas as a transition fuel can be extremely important for STD7 which is about energy access. Even coal if you look at some of the ways in which people live their lives in significant parts of rural India, you'll see that coal is pretty nasty but it's not as nasty as some of the indoor polluting fuels that people currently use for their cooking and there's data from Daniel Joergen that's something like 40% of the world's population. It's about three billion people currently having their health impaired by continued use of these indoor cooking materials. Coal and not defending it but it's possibly a second best for a short period of time pending the availability of the first best solution. Next slide please. I'm going to do this very quickly because my time is pretty much up. Two final observations. One is the continuous and natural gas can undoubtedly contribute to STD7, Ayrton and Patrick McPhail will speak about that in a few moments. But I also think it's important to leave behind in this presentation the idea that expanded production of mining into several low-income countries is going to be an almost certain outcome of the global climate change commitments and I think we need to inquire what policy actions are going to be needed to ensure that this brings broader development benefits and just doesn't just lead to enclave developments as in the past. The first I think thing we should ask for and hope for is that donor agency will be able to step up rather than step down their commitments to support the mining sectors in relevant countries such as the US, the Zambia, Bolivia. I mentioned the point that the World Bank, DFID and NORAD have really good track records in this regard in the past and I hope that they will be able to continue to provide support of this type. I'm referring not here just to the greening of mining which is obviously one part of the problem but very much my broad agenda of incorporating mining activities as a catalyst to stimulate wider economic development in many other sectors of the economy and a sort of formulae for this are presented in the book that Tony and myself edited in 2018. I think we also need ideas about how we can get host countries paying donors to generate much bigger portfolios of bankable investment projects so that they can multiply the effects of the direct mining investments to provide these broader probably wide outcomes. I think we have a problem in many developing countries that we do not see for example in the United Kingdom. We will see the bankable projects in greener areas and in many other areas coming out of the climate change spending. Very naturally we're well sad to do that. I don't think we see that so much in Africa and elsewhere. How many good private investments are we seeing capturing for example the advantages of solar energy in Africa? Everyone talks about the obvious advantages of solar energy but we need a lot of private investments to capitalize that and to make the reality. And the final point which I think is very important is that over many decades the richer countries have increasingly moved their mining offshore especially things like rare earths and other environmentally damaging metals which find out many lower income countries. And I think at Glasgow there is a very very difficult dilemma. Do the delegates acknowledge this historical fact and permit to help more than newer producers of these toxic metals because they are toxic in many cases in the way they're produced to produce these metals in a much greener fashion or do they accept the uncomfortable reality hated by their environmental campaigners that they don't accept that obligation? They will then have to see more of this metal mining produced back in the richer countries Western Europe and the United States mining income via lithium in Cornwall and so on. So there's a dilemma there for the Glasgow delegates. Last slide please. I'll finish with this one. It's not coming. All right. Last slide. Next one, sorry. So are we ready on before that? The topic of this seminar this afternoon is COP26. Are we ready? As regard the SDG13 issues the narrow climate issues it seems that we're not. A hundred billion per annum minimum target financing indicated by Paris has been missed. We're told by all the recent publications on this the climate commitments we're told so far been made in advance of Glasgow and will still leave the world economy on track for a global temperature rise of at least 2.7% this century. But as regards the further issues about other sustainable development goals which I've raised in this presentation apparently seems unlikely. I do not see anything much in public discourse. The announcers of the past few weeks that provide any real indication of the topics that I've described in the last few minutes will get any very serious attention in Glasgow. I hope I'm wrong. But if I'm not wrong then an opportunity to achieve progress on many of the other SDGs besides the climate targets may be about to be lost. Thank you very much. Good. So thank you very much and in the chat we've been putting the relevant materials. So now I would like to turn to our two panelists on the on the gas side. This is Catherine McPhail and Etienne Romsen. Catherine is the CEO of EnergyCC and a member of the advisory group at the Natural Resources Governance Institute, the UN Sustainable Development Solutions Network, the Singapore Institute of Directors as well as an affiliation with the National University of Singapore Medical Council. She is a former World Bank, IFC, oil and gas and mining industry executive as well with over 100 with FTSE 100 companies. She's recently co-authored two wider working papers with Etienne on hydrocarbon gas flaring and venting. And again those will be put in the chat. The link is to those. Catherine will be talking first and then Etienne will come in second. Etienne is the president of EnergyCC. He was the former global executive vice president for DNVGL and a managing director of Shell Exploration and Production in Kuwait, where he developed and led complex projects in oil and gas. He's recently co-authored two of the wider working papers, which we'll be talking about today. And just as a taster, there is further work coming up on oil theft later in the year. Okay, so let me hand over to the EnergyCC team starting with, I think, Catherine. Thank you. Thank you very much, Tony. And first of all, good afternoon, good morning, good evening to everyone. It's a delight to be sharing our work with you. And really, we do have to thank UNUI very much for publishing our work, and particularly to Professors Tony Addison and Professor Alan Rowe. They provided excellent guidance and advice to us, and we also appreciate the support from NORAT. So if we go to the second slide, the presentation that Etienne and I will be giving will really discuss three messages, which you can see here on the slide. But in fact, most of our presentation is going to be taken up with, how can we take action now? So that will be the main focus. But we will show how technologies, including the use of satellite imagery, can help the 30 or so developing countries that are dependent on oil and gas production. You heard earlier from Alan about how important the extractive industries are to very many developing countries, not just on the mining side, but also on the oil and gas side. And what we see is that there are opportunities evident at the global level. Climate is obviously a critical, urgent issue right now, but clean air is also another global aspect. We also see opportunities at the community level, local communities, and the national level through the sustainable development goals, and the nationally determined contributions. So if we can go to slide three, please. So on this slide, I'm not going to speak to it, but the key point here is really that natural gas is now the second energy source of global energy demand after oil. And yet, if you go to the next slide, please slide four, what you will see that almost 7.5 percent of that gas, which is extractives, is either lost or wasted. Now, most of this takes place in the exploration and production of oil and gas operations in developing countries. So this in turn would provide significant benefits for additional government revenues. And also for many of the SDGs, again, Alan has spoken quite eloquently about the energy access and also the access to clean cooking fuels. So I don't need to go over that. But why is this issue so specifically relevant today? So with the remote technologies, we don't need access to individual sites as you see here on this map. Instead, the technology allows each individual flare and you can get a sample of them here to be identified and also for the volume of emissions to be measured. For gas flaring, this can be done on a daily basis. And for methane, the technologies are moving towards that. So if we move to slide five, please, we also have to look at costs. Now, this figure, which you see here, is really showing how all emissions data from flaring and venting, which are listed on the left hand side, how they are linked to data on what is called the social costs of atmospheric releases. This is a method that has been developed by Professor Drew Schindel. We are very happy to discuss the methodology in the Q&A. But the key takeaway of Professor Schindel's scar, as it's called, is that for the first time, the impacts health as well as climate of a broader range of emissions, in other words, beyond carbon, are integrated and applied. He applied it in the U.S. We adapted that first to the U.S. oil and gas industry and then to the global industry. So you may say, well, again, why is this important? So let me just give you one example. If you look at carbon dioxide, which is the CO2 third from the bottom on the chart, carbon dioxide can be absorbed by trees. If you look at methane, which is the top CH4, methane cannot be absorbed by trees. In fact, it stunts plant growth. And we will follow up a bit later on showing what the implications are for regulators as between gas flaring and venting. So can we go to slide six, please? So on this slide, really, the good news is that satellite data also guides us on where are the immediate priorities. So you can see from here that we can actually reduce 60% of gas fled globally by focusing on just over 6% of the flares. So we will also show how future work is really urgently needed to assess where eradicating some of these large flares will give the biggest benefit for health and climate. So can we go to the slide seven, please? So this is going to be my last slide before I hand over to Etienne, and it brings together what we call the solution framework. It's a diamond model, which you can see on the right hand side. And it comprises those four elements starting at the top from improved measurement through transparency to small scale gas monetization technologies and regulations and fiscal measures. Now the critical point here is that you really need public-private collaboration to deliver on this model. It's not a question that governments can do it all their on their own through regulations and fiscal measures. It's not a question that the companies can do it all on their own through small scale gas monetization technologies. So the public-private collaboration is really fundamental to this solutions network. Now I do want to just highlight the four bullets on the left because these are really quite critical to the story. So we will show that technology solutions are already now available. We do not need more research and development. Most of these have already been demonstrated. So there is no need for further R&D. Governments, however, often lack what Mark Carney calls decision useful information. So that is a very key point in the discussion. Companies also often do not have sufficient commercial reasons to use these technologies, particularly if there is no carbon tax or some form of carbon pricing available. So the conclusion here is that the remote imaging technologies using satellites can really square this circle and Etienne is going to walk you through the opportunities that we see from applying these technologies. So let me stop there, but thank you again. Thank you. So thank you Catherine if we can now unmute Etienne. And while we're doing that notice Catherine made the point about the difference between methane and carbon, carbon dioxide in terms of emissions. So I think we can now bring in Etienne. Yeah, thanks Catherine for highlighting the imperative and as well as the opportunity to reduce a key source of emission. And what stands out I think is that a relatively small fraction of the gas that is currently being wasted through flares and vents is actually causing more than half of all the social cost of the total natural gas industry which is about to become the largest energy source on the planet. So focusing on this will have a disproportionately large impact on addressing the emission problem. But not only that as Catherine showed we can then further zoom in on really what are the super emitters. So I'm going to talk about what actions can we take and what can we focus on to implement this and to reduce these emissions. One obviously is then to start looking for the super emitters and I will show some examples of how that can be done very practically now with the new technology that satellites provides us. Secondly, it's not just looking at where the emitters are it is also if you want to repurpose the gas you need to do something with the gas and therefore you need to look at the context and where the gas is being emitted if you want to repurpose it. So communities that exist near sources where gas is being emitted are obviously important for two reasons and they can use the gas and secondly they don't feature the consequences of those emissions. And thirdly there's an opportunity for governments to motivate companies to repurpose the gas by actually setting penalties and Nigeria is a good example for us to show what that means in terms of income to governments. Next slide please. So the first what I will talk about is how does this actually work? How do you find these emission sources? And here is a very practical example. On the left hand side you see a picture of a gas flare taking just normal photo taking on 6th of July 2012 which I picked up from the website. I actually and that clearly says where the picture was taken then you can actually look for what satellites have recorded and satellites are flying over the planet for scouting for flare gas twice a day and indeed on the 6th of July this emission that is shown on the left hand side is clearly was clearly picked up by the satellite. It recorded a flare rate a daily flare rate of about 150,000 cubic meters a day and that is extremely powerful. This doesn't just work for this flare it works for all flares around the planet with this kind of accuracy and with this sort of data coverage. So that means that we can actually hunt for flares and determine their impact. Next slide please. Equally important and what is part of our research now is that we're not just looking at when it comes to super emitters about how much gas is being flared but also what is actually being emitted through the flaring and the picture on the right hand side is actually the same image of the left hand side it's just the blow up of what happens inside of the gas flaring. I can see indeed the black smoke and the toxic chemicals being emitted. I believe that through the satellite records we can actually see and make estimates on the quality of flaring and we are looking at that right now as an opportunity. Next slide please. So how can we apply this further? I mentioned that we should not just look at where flares are located and how much they are emitting and the quality of flaring. We also need to look for opportunities to reverse the gas that is being emitted and being flared or vented. So here you see the satellite image of a location in rural Pakistan. It's near the Sinjuro gas plant you can very easily google it and find it and again satellite has picked the emissions from this particular flare. What is interesting to note is that this gas plant the previous image was also of a gas plant this is also an image of a gas plant. You can imagine the consequences if flares are lighted up on the local community. So there's several local communities identified in the white circles living nearby the nearest communities about 200 meters away. But not only that the emissions from the flares obviously deposit not only in the area but also on the ground. So particular volatile organic compounds are deposited in the agricultural fields that surround the flare. So stopping the flare would be a good idea. But what to do with it now? The energy that is currently being burned in the flare can be repurposed by actually collecting the gas and for example here to apply compressed natural gas as a source of fuel for local communities. For example hydrological pumps to irrigate the fields can be fueled with CNG. Engines agricultural engines can be fueled with CNG as a clean fuel. Thereby you have two wind winds or three wind winds already. You reduce emissions you improve health because the toxic chemicals are no longer spewing on the agricultural fields and you provide an energy source for the local community to actually make use of the gas. Now I'm not saying that this is possible but what satellite technology can do is can very quickly help us screen key opportunities that stand out of large flares near communities so that we can inventorize quickly where are the most likely opportunities for repurposing the gas. Next slide please. The next example if we get to the slide that I want to talk to about is an example in Indonesia. Here remarkably you see a gas flare that is literally in the backyard of a community the yellow circle in the in the bigger picture is a radius of 50 meters and in that radius of 50 meters you'll find a toko which is a shop where you can buy food you'll find a shop where you can buy clothes and you find several houses. The facility on the top right corner is actually an oil plant with an oil separators producing oil. What is remarkable is that the flare is located outside of the perimeter of the oil plant and basically indirect contact with the local community. If we zoom out a little bit further this flare is basically located back in the middle of Jambi city which is a population of 600,000 people. What is interesting also is that flare rates have gone up in the last few years and why is that? So I've been doing a little bit of checking and research. This flare or this facility is being operated by Kirtamina which is the national oil company and in 2019 early 2020 they started drilling more wells in the fields and as a result of more wells being drilled they had more oil production and the associated gas is being flared so the associated gas shows up in the increase that we saw in 2020 and 2021 as a result of oil development activities. Now this is not a new field this field was discovered in 1930 so this field has been flaring for 90 years and it's still flaring. What is interesting to note is also that the volume flare by this single flare is of the same order as gas projects that are now being invested in Indonesia that are of the order of 2 to 12 million scuffs a day including biogas projects in Jambi city that are of this order of magnitude. So people need the energy and it's just remarkable that flaring still exists while other projects are being executed that are of a similar scale and actually provide energy to where it's most needed. So integrating the repurposing of flaring gas into these smaller gas projects into biogas projects obviously it will be a great opportunity and that can be easily done nowadays. Technology is available that allows a container to come in and directly convert flaring gas such as this into power into electricity or into cng or other useful means to use the gas. Next slide please. The third opportunity I want to talk about is in Nigeria. Nigeria has made tremendous progress in eradicating flares and part of that progress is the result of penalties that have been imposed on on on flaring and how can they do that? They can do that because they can see every individual flare from through satellite images and therefore they know of every flare which shows the right hand side every little red dot on the right hand side image is an individually identified and measured flare. Every flare has got a measurements behind it of how much was flared on what day from how long to how long. That means that if the volume of flare gas is is known and measured penalties can be incurred that are a function of the volume being there. So this flare that you see on the left side of the image which is one of the many many flares in in in Nigeria that flare on its own had penalties attributed to it of over 12 million dollars during 2019. If you add all the flares up in Nigeria you come to close to a billion dollars in flaring penalties. Next slide please. If we look at a close-up of this particular flare what is remarkable is that this flare is actually located next to an argyp fuel station in in in the Niger Delta transport is not done so much by roads it's actually done by boats because of the many waterways that exists. So here I think you have a great opportunity potentially to capture the gas and this is a rather large flare to capture the gas convert it into cng and use that cng to fuel boats that go on the river and and bring the necessary transport to the communities as a source of fuel. Again further it's easy to say that from a desktop research so you need underground further information to convert this into real projects but what we can do now is through satellite technology identify the flares and not only where they are how much is being there but also start screening for what gas monetization technologies actually would be potentially most applicable to convert this gas to repurpose this gas into into fuels for the benefit of community and last slide please next one so finally one up two up so what I want to say is we have a real opportunity to pull together the opportunities provided for by technology and and convert this into a quadruple win these opportunities to convert flare and gas into into opportunities for local communities are good for the local communities are good for climate are good for health provide energy access and also our commercial and certainly with the physical measures like the ones that Nigeria applied we can actually provide commercial imperative for companies and help them to to convert flare and then gas into into opportunities and capture this energy that is otherwise wasted thank you very much so thank you very much Etienne for a very interesting presentation there by Catherine Etienne and particularly about the use of satellite data we already have a question coming in for you to think about when we get to the Q&A somebody is saying what about the international legal framework the laws around gas flares particularly in low-income countries and so on so not one for you to answer now but we should hopefully come to that question in the Q&A so as Alan said there are sort of two sides to this to this climate extractives coin one is the gas and the oil side which we've just had we're now going to turn to the mining side which is a potentially extremely exciting area given the demand as Alan said for metals of all all kinds and we're absolutely delighted to to bring into the meeting Andrew Moabah Andrew is an international development specialist he's worked at the African Development Bank for over 30 years he's not currently with the bank where he held senior positions very senior positions including country manager in Malawi he's authored many publications and flag up the what Andrew is going to talk about very soon is a forthcoming wider working paper on Zambia which we hope to have out by the end of the year Zambia of course being a big mining exporting economy and Andrew is very closely associated also with the bank of Zambia the co-author of the work for wider is Steve Caizzi-Migueva who is also here today Steve is an adjunct professor at Georgetown University and independent consultant he's worked as an economic advisor in the prime minister's office in Esterwani and has worked closely with many African governments in his former position as acting chief economist and vice president of the African Development Bank and aside from working on the copper issue with Andrew he's also authored a paper which is now out on the wider website on Uganda's oil sector so Andrew is mainly going to be the main presenter from this team but Steve might come in depending on time a little bit towards the end of Andrew's presentation but we'll certainly hear from Steve when we get to the questions and answers and do keep those questions and answers going we're already getting a question in for the panel to think about the implications for African poverty from the impact of the climate crisis and you know how we can best best support Africa's support in our strategies so let me without further ado hand over to Andrew if we can bring Andrew in please so Andrew is just coming into the session yeah thank you Tony can you get me we can see Andrew thank you Tony for that introduction um yes i'll talk about copper mining in Zambia and the readiness for the net zero transition by all background you know Zambia is the longest of mining and it has produced you know a lot of copper, cobalt and other metals along the way there's also potential for other metals which have not yet been exploited but as you know industrial mining has got a double-edged sword you know it produces a lot of profit a lot of revenue creating jobs but it also has serious implications for the environment so we are looking at both sides you know in this presentation so the rapid expansion of mining on the copper belt in Zambia for example was undertaken at a time when the environmental issues were not key you know in deciding where to invest so as a result the the landscape on the copper belt is dotted with a lot of slag heats and tearing downs you know of waste from mining which form a constant environmental hazard. The mining process itself also produces a lot of emissions of sulfur oxide gases which are generated through the primary smelting process of the mines. By way of recent developments in the past decade or so the copper belt region which is the main industrial hub of the country has been in steep decline mainly owing to the collapse in output from low investment in mining assets and much of the decline however was offset by new mines in the northwest part of the country so you see that the higher mineral prices and green energy demand are presenting a new opportunity for Zambia as the mining sector is seeing investors lining up again for new investments. There was a report in one of the papers in South Africa recently that you know the mining companies are looking to invest in countries they previously thought of a two risk increase in Zambia and DRC and this is being prepared by by a bigger by by a lower pipeline of mines as well as record life profits. So how should Zambia prepare to benefit from from the high demand and higher prices? You know it's when you talk about Zambia benefiting from the new demand you cannot ignore the revenue side. So we are starting by saying if we are to benefit from the boom in mining Zambia needs to adopt a mineral tax regime that benefits that benefits the country but also encourages new investment from the private sector but you know at the same time we should increase participation by by by local actors in the sector. The other thing that it should be done is to build strong capacity, public capacity in terms of mining policy taxation and other issues which should build the the revenue for the country. Finally on this point I would like to say that you know we need to create incentives I don't know through taxation and other policy measures to to develop downstream industries in copper and and and and and co-boat especially to to allow the country to enter you know the EV the electric vehicles very chain and other green technologies. So in in in addressing the environmental implications of mining growth Zambia also needs to adopt strong measures towards the environmental sustainability of mining including strengthening and enforcement of regressions to curtail poor mining practices. These measures will not be without costs and may have implications for new infrastructures including power systems, transit roads and also as you know the country is already power deficit in any additional use by new mines who result into into into a worsening of the situation. Some of the mines we are seeing that you know some of the mines are adopting environmental friendly mining practices for example in the Karumbina mine which is a new mine in the northwest run by FQM of Canada. You know they have adopted the green mining practices including resettlement and decomposition of displaced communities as well as protecting water sources for human use and economic activities so this is a this is already happening for by the new investors. Again I just talked about the the power power requirements for mining. I think we should make efforts to reduce the strain on the on the power grid of the new investments you know you know as much of the the power used for for mining can be moved to renewable sources either on site or via mini grids using renewables which will require large-scale energy storage given the power needs of the sector. This is also another opportunity for new investments. There are some companies already which are doing this. I know that Dangote cement for example they have a large operation on the copper boat to to power their systems they invested in their own energy on site which produces all the energy they need so this should be also possible with the with mining companies on the new investments. You know these investments of course will require large-scale financing and the agencies like the ADB or the World Bank would have a role to playing this. The ADB for example has just committed to double their climate finance to 25 billion dollars by 2035 and Zambia and other metal producers could tap into this resource. I'll just end with what we see as some of the technical measures that can be taken to to to reduce you know the impact of mining activity on the immediate environment. One of the points is that you know reducing the impact of mining can be achieved through the reuse of mining waste as opposed to piling and disbossing into into waterways. For every particular mining waste there are several ways to do that. The mining firms could also switch to more eco friendly equipment such as the battery driven mining machinery to replace diesel driven options to cut CO2 emissions. For disused mines and mine sites the government and firms can use the many land restoration techniques which are available to make land productive again or to speed up the land's natural recovery process. Mining firms should adopt technology in gas purification to reduce sulfur oxide emissions in purpose melting and minimize pollution and geothasas on the communities. The previous speakers have just talked about the emissions and now this has been dealt with in terms of capturing the players especially in countries like Nigeria and other operation countries. This can be adapted also for mining and then finally you know the environment can be protected for mining practices by simply you know shutting down illegal mining activities in the country. This ensures that mining is bound by the same standards and you know can enforce such accountability. We have seen this a lot especially in gold mining. As you know for gold it's very easy to attract artisan mines and many people are going to gold mining without any aggressions so this is something that can be addressed. There are also other people who use the same methods to mine copper so these type of operations should be strictly regulated by government and if necessary you know shut down these kind of operations and also there is need to support the operations of sulfur oxide organizations which are targeting to ensure that you know mining is environmental sustainable. For example in the past few years the government issued a license for mining for mining development in the Zambiazi valley so there's been a lot of outcry which has been led by CSO's and you know if we give CSO's voice they'll be able to to guide against such developments. I think I'll end here for now and take some questions afterwards. Thank you Tony. Thank you very much Andrew is illustrating the complexity of the of the task in mining which is also about we obviously need to reduce emissions the gender of green mining as it's called but also there are many other impacts environmental impacts, tailing dams, water pollution issues, impacts on biodiversity and so on that must also concern us alongside greenhouse gas emissions and that is part of the agenda as well. So I just actually like at this point to bring in as I mentioned Andrew and Steve Caizzi-Migueva have done a paper for wider on mining in Zambia and I'd just like to bring in Steve at this point for any supplementary material he'd like to add to Andrew's excellent presentation. So Steve would you like to chip in? Yes thank you thank you very much Tony and thank you Andrew for what I thought was a brilliant presentation. Let me just take a few minutes in fact about less than five to add a few small things here and there. What I want to do I want to my discussion to be under what I call now net zero anxieties. I've written a small op-ed and I call it net zero anxieties on the copper belt and the savannah in Africa. So there is a feeling that we have green mining and we are moving to green economy that is automaticity almost but I think there will not be automaticity. There is going to be a very steep learning curve and there's going to be issues of path dependence I think. So and then one thing you don't hear much about and I mentioned SDGs but also one other item is good macro. All these things will come to waste if there's no good macro policies underlying these things good planning good macro policies. So I would urge for a sense of realism as we move forward there will be no automaticity there will be we have to be very careful as Andrew I say you will need to create capacities dimension capacities in policymaking public sector but in my mind also capacities in the private sector capacities to be able to add value because a whole lot of things will be revolving around value but also to be concerned about potential spill overs because if we focus mining is a big sector in Zambia but the other sectors like culture and manufacturing are even bigger so what about spill overs in terms of expenditure in terms of policy focus and so on those kind of things and then lastly though obviously be again Andrew mentioned the legacy issues that you have on the copper belt incredible problems of land reclamation you will need to reforest a whole lot of these they were thick forests once upon a time that's now wasteland you need to so these things will have implications in terms of spending in terms of investment and and so on and so forth so there are going to be serious tradeoffs in moving towards the green economy and the need net zero agenda that are that the country needs to take seriously there will be no automatic movement at all and also lastly something that I want to pose which I won't answer where is the employment creation in all this good thank you very much Steve and Steve has very eloquently illustrated the complexity of the task because for the countries with the copper the cobalt the lithium the nickel the manganese that's going to be needed in enormous quantities as Alan said they've not only got to manage the green mining agenda and drive down the emissions to create a net zero mining sector which is a massive challenge they've got to manage the broader environmental impact and as Steve has just said they've got to manage also the macroeconomic and public finance dimensions so that they don't get themselves into as much trouble as some of the oil economies have done historically which were afflicted by a resource curse an overabundance of revenue leading to quite serious serious economic problems that's a very large agenda for low income and middle income countries right across the developing world so I'm going to now turn to some of the questions that we've been getting into the chat function please do add in a question or two to the chat function they're coming in as as we speak I'd like to start with some issues around the the gas sector and also I might ask Steve to chip in on his work on Uganda's oil sector as part of that set of responses so you know one question we've had is you know what's the legal framework around all of this you know are our countries this is a question for Etienne and Catherine you know our country is obligated by international law are they obligated by domestic law to reduce their emissions from venting and flaring gas what's the legal dimension around that and then just to give you a second question which is come in basically the satellite information sounds wonderful looks great we can see things that we never saw before we're using technology on the side of identifying and reducing emissions Catherine and Etienne but how do we assume how do we assure that that information is publicly available how do we assure it's there as a global public good how can we assure that say civil society in the developing world in countries like Nigeria and others has access to that information or is it going to be privatized like a lot of information is in the world so there's a global public good dimension here which is of course massively important for going into the COP meetings in just over a week's time so two initial questions for you there the legal framework by the national and international around gas flaring and venting and then the global public good side of satellite imaging so over to you Catherine Etienne. I'd like to take him first Catherine and then yeah so we've done a review on countries that have a legal framework for emissions from oil and gas atmospheric emissions that is so for flaring and venting and there are actually not many countries that have regulations around this fewer have a fiscal framework around this there's no international law that I'm aware of that forces companies to avoid routine flaring and venting there's an initiative a voluntary initiative by the World Bank it's called GGFR that basically focuses on reduction of flaring and the complete stop off flaring by 2030 for the parties that have supported that initiative but we see if you look at what is happening year on year in terms of the total emissions we see very little progress to date it's like the can is kicked down the road to 2030 it's getting close so she would think that by now we should have seen a marked reduction but for the last six seven years the amount of flaring stays roughly constant about 150 pcm a year globally so that is an issue I think regulations do help and fiscal frameworks help even more the biggest incentive that we have to stop these emissions is to make them commercial and okay you make them commercial by putting penalties on the emissions as soon as you put penalties on the emissions parties are in incentivizes the wrong word are then very motivated to to to recover the gas and actually turn this into a commercial resource which then becomes possible and the technologies are there so it's a question of doing as Nigeria and other countries it's not the only country in the world are actually showing so we we have the technology but this is must be a big talking point in Glasgow this is an immediate set of points of action because as Etienne says people are just kicking the can too much down the road so Catherine satellites public goods rockets so so let me just add to to that point on the regulations the IMF which as you know is a global organization which has mandates in all countries around the world it has been doing a lot of work in the past four to five years on carbon pricing which is really as Etienne was pointing out is going to be a real trigger to make these gas monetization options commercial another example of success because as Etienne mentioned the very few regulations anywhere at Norway mandatory measurement regulation and fiscal measures this has incentivized industry to invest in small scale energy so there are some examples out there that we can look to on the question of the global public good this is really a very topical issue because the satellites that Etienne was showing you the NASA satellites these at the moment are in the public domain and therefore as is the case in Nigeria the civil society organizations they've been leading this work stakeholder democracy and the networks there have been leading the work because it's transparent the data you can anyone can access it and download it the question comes much more on methane the methane satellites for the most part not all but for the most part are commercial satellites therefore they're selling their you know their products to companies and service providers that the moment there is no provision for that to remain in the public domain so Tony as you point out from a global public policy in the transparency and accountability perspective this is something which really could help maintain the access of civil society and others to this really important and valuable information thank you yeah and I think that's a strong message that Nigerians and others from these economies should bring up at COP because this is a concrete issue where in particularly the advanced economies where their ability to launch satellites to do this to create a public good of information could take immediate action I'd like at this point actually to bring in Steve and just ask Steve you wrote this very good paper for us on Uganda's oil sector I mean briefly what do you think Uganda should be thinking about here is is this going to be useful to Uganda because you know one thing that we might expect is that countries that actually do reduce their emissions and monitor gas flaring and venting are going to find a better market among users of oil and gas who want those lower emissions and you know that might be a market opportunity for Uganda any views on this thank you Tony I um Uganda is very interesting because you already have all the problems of oil without having produced any single barrels of oil you have all sorts of Dutch disease you have governance issues you have you have all sorts of issues so yes that might be something but really in the whole spectrum of things the bigger question is for example the only thinking about this pipeline from from Hoima where where the oil is in western Uganda all the way across Tanzania one thousand almost 500 kilometers to the coast of Tanzania that has caused all sorts of issues at one time the major is called the total things called total energies now change this name a little bit the costs understand have gone up from 3.5 billion to 6 billion and so on but the question that I want to pose to you the panelists and the rest of the listeners is what does a poor country do when has plowed billions already in oil prospecting and oil investment and has everybody out there half of them excited about the oil prospects what do you do stranded assets what does it mean for a country like Uganda you walk away from this political catastrophe there's like there's a whole lot of pressure for Uganda to abandon this but not as much pressure for resources to come in and help the country to find the alternative so I think that is sort of the dilemma almost the dilemma that Alan sort of pointed out you have all these are very good arguments but here is an extremely poor country has been excited for a long time when discovered oil this problem wasn't there so it has developed has put in a lot of money what does it do so yeah I mean the financing issue is absolutely critical in in all of this and as somebody actually points out in the chat of course as we take action to reduce the potency of flaring through tax or carbon tax and other measures and by the way this is discussed the revenue implications are discussed in Catherine and Etienne's papers for us to a degree you know you have to get on with that because of course eventually as Steve has pointed out the market for oil and gas is going to start to diminish there are lots of views around that when exactly it's happening so countries perhaps should try to you know position themselves well in advance of this trend now I'd like to turn to the mining dimensions which Andrew and Steve have talked about in relation to copper and and the classic question that it's come up is that you know a lot of mining economies have had real difficulty generating benefits for communities there are issues not only about you know adverse community impacts from from mining the environmental ones that we've talked about but also you know are actually the communities going to share in any of this potential revenue boom that countries are going to get from the demand from Tesla for all of the metals for the demands for the Chinese refiners for all the metals I mean how are we going to get this revenue potential revenue boom in mining down to the poorest people in Zambia and other mining economies so I'd like to bring in Andrew and then again Steve on that that really really crucial question yeah yeah thank you Tony you know as I mentioned in my presentation there are some of the mining firms who are already arising this you know and they're trying to work with the communities in terms of you know corporate social responsibility but I was actually thinking that the term corporate social responsibility could really be expanded to be corporate social and the environmental responsibility so that you know you know they also take into account the impact from the communities and the environment so you know a lot of money is being made in very poor communities so what what the firms and also the government would encourage them to do is to ensure that you know they provide some of these basic services you know I know that some mines are already providing schools clinics and living in you know you know like caluminal mine which I mentioned earlier has developed a trust school which gives preference to the children of the workers in the mines and the those within the surrounding areas so this these are just some of the key aspects that that they can do to contribute to uplift in the communities where they where they operate from and then you know this also creates a good image of the of the companies it's such a very expensive thing to do so firms should consider that thanks so I mean that indicates a very important dimension that must be talked about at COP which is that the potential to help poor people in Africa there are you know according to World Bank statistics half a billion in Africa Africans who do not have a reasonable access to to grid electricity we know the whole agenda around education and health which is just massive and a lot of this is predicated on on mining revenues not just in Zambia but also Guinea other other countries in Africa and also in Asia and that's a tremendously important thing to bring to the COP table Steve I mean what what are you thinking about this thank you Tony I you know I'm a bit so skeptical about this social corporate responsibility per se I think governments should get extractors you know the the tax that they can and let the governments do the distribution because you see even on the copper belt today a lot of these multinationals behave differently on the copper belt or in Zambia than they do elsewhere so when they are sort of prospecting in Canada they're you know top-notch behaving you know doing the right things they come to Zambia they start cutting corners they pollute rivers and so on it's very important but you can't depend on their goodwill they're out there to make money I think governments must really be in a position that's why capacity building is very important and all these kind of things that strengthen the inspection capacities that debates on the ground and so on to actually follow these companies and make sure they if they're doing corporate responsibility that is actually done I don't want I don't want a situation where corporate responsibility is used as a quip or quarrel for not doing other things not paying adequate amounts of taxes for some thank you Stephen that raises you know the the vital nature of the fiscal management of revenues and the and the tax relationships and how we can organize that has always been a massive agenda in development and one that wider is pursuing very very actively through our domestic resource mobilization project of which this extractives theme is just one element so do visit the website on that now we're starting to move towards the end of the session but I'm going to pose a question that's come actually in from Fatima that connects really grows across all of the major themes we've discussed today we've only taken a small slice of the pie as I said the climate pie today and that's the question about technology right you know there's been a long-standing debate about technology and the access to technology and in the developing world both all of the panelists are basically saying you know we have a massive technological agenda here we have the technological agenda in the oil and gas sector to drive down emissions in all ways that we can and of course that was some gas flaring eventing is just sort of one dimension of that so you know where is the technology coming from is it coming from the multinational companies is are the multilateral development banks going to help out is it going to be bilateral aid how much government money do we need how much of the technology is going to be proprietary etc etc intellectual properties and so on and that applies obviously to this whole aspect of green mining as well where are we going to get the technologies to reduce fossil fuel use in the very large energy consumption of mines to to monitor the environmental impacts to really understand the biodiversity dimension and so forth so you know the technological agenda either financed by the private or public sectors so I'm going to turn to each of our panelists now for a sort of final remark around that agenda and I think I will start with the energy cct team Catherine or Etienne please come in on that great thank you Tony sorry go ahead Catherine you'll get first this time okay okay so so this is a really interesting question and I think I can understand the the incentive towards looking to multilateral development banks government monies etc but we also know that governments around the world post COVID are really struggling in terms of access to resources many of them have a lot more debt the development banks have been looking at ways to help countries so I think relying on the public sector if you will whether it's at the international level or the national level indeed it when there's so many other things on the agendas from the COVID to the recovery of economies and jobs and all sorts of issues so this as we've sort of touched on in our work the real opportunity to bring in things like carbon pricing because if there's a carbon price in these countries that will incentivize the private sector because it will be a cost then they'll have to pay a tax if they flare or bent if they have to pay that tax and they're likely to or more likely to deploy the technologies that as we said are already out there already being deployed in some cases as we've tried to demonstrate so I really think that given where we are at globally the more we can do to incentivize the private sector in these sorts of ways we've been setting out that will mean that everybody's coming to the table the public sector's doing what it can to applying these fiscal or regulatory measures for the companies then have their role to pick this up and run with it so let me stop there thank you maybe again thank you and etienne if you just have a few words to add to that because then I'm going to move to Andrew and then Steve and then I'm going to actually come back to Alan just to see if we've started to answer some of the questions that he raised around cop so etienne very short on a technology dependency which is a potentially important part the good news on gas monetization is that these technologies are now per can be purchased on the market the vendors out there that allow these technologies to be bought it's kitted out in a container it can be truck mounted and and and the point so it doesn't come with a enormous amount of additional technical know-how that you needed it's self-contained units and if you need more you basically add another module it's very modular in approach so the accessibility of technology has greatly improved on the gas monetization side of course import duties and all of that may provide additional hurdles to actually bring this technology into countries but in terms of accessing this technology the dependency risk at least for the gas monetization part for the smaller projects that is a thing of the past so that's that's good news we've got concrete actions there that can be taken to cop particularly by the developing world themselves so I just like to bring in briefly Andrew and then Steve and then I'll hand over to Alan we're running up against the time constraint we're going to go a little bit over hopefully that's okay you're going to be okay on the on the technical side but please please be relatively brief gentlemen so so Andrew technology what's what's the case what what does african need and how is it going to be funded and what's your perspective yeah thanks so you know you know as you know mining oil and gas especially mining in copper is a very capital intensive operation and the new mines always come up with new technologies and the governments so far like the German government has done well in supporting this by offering a tax incentives to companies bringing new equipment so this should continue but of course the chamber with a greater focus on equipment actually for the mines rather than you know a whole a whole say or example of taxes from more imports and consumables by the mining sector so they need to keep a close eye on that but to promote new technologies this this should be encouraged I think basically that's what I can say about that in terms of financing of course I would have already mentioned the fact that the agency is like a like the adb and the old bank can can assist with the clients the adb is already pushing a large climate finance facility this should be able to to help countries tap into the into that should to develop new technologies and adapt new technologies for their mining operations thanks excellent andrew and steve do you want to just add a few words to what to andrew said yes thank you yes just a very few words yeah let me guess the the critical skills required in the in the oil and gas sector and of course mining you find a lot of cases that are you know you bring in expatriates and so on and they go back home of course and then you don't have skills and how about this kind of problem I don't have the scale economies that you need so um but but governments are working on that uh Uganda has for example established a department of for oil development whatever it was at the mercury university and that is then linked to the engineering departments and so on uh so that and and and the you know us of Zambia has a long history of training engineers and mining and so on and the thing is at least in Zambia a whole lot of these people have then migrated into other sectors and created capacity so that so that what you're doing is creating generating technical skills that have never been there before and then they go over the economy so so actually Zambia in spite of the issues as as local companies that are technologically best that you don't find anywhere in Africa at least in not in Uganda or Kenya and the result of earlier investments in all training these people so I think that training should be one of the things to focus on even as we look at the broader infrastructure issues absolutely so there's another critical message for for COP both on the technology the education and the finance side so I just like to turn very briefly to to Alan to say um Alan the questions you posed at the very beginning in your presentation about uh you know are we ready for COP at least from the extractive side are you comforted by the discussion of the panel that we've had today or you know how much work is there for global leaders and CEOs and so forth and academics and researchers like ourselves to do we need to unmute Alan please yes I'm very I've heard from the the presentations but I think it sends a very sort of strong message to delegates you know because you won't get a seat at the tabling Glasgow and this should come with many billions of dollars of commitments but I mean what we've for today suggests that a lot of very good things can be done without spending a lot of money and not least the ideas that we have mentioned and Catherine just needs international goodwill to sort of make satellite bait in this particularly example of public good doesn't cost money to do that it just means and it's actually agreement of the type that we are currently seeing so I think it would be nice if some of the delegates in Glasgow were able to sort of sit in at least some of the presentations they got three or four points that came up from various people the first point I think is stranded asks as Steve mentioned there's also a patima in the in the questions um I think one issue for Glasgow is whether a fossil fuel asset should be stranded and the African countries for the most part of where the representatives here and others contributed a fraction of one percent to global emissions historically and the question rises whether the nationally determined contribution should require them to strand valuable assets which can still have some use at least for 10 20 or 30 years especially in energy generation where energy access as I said earlier um is very low so um my my own idea would be that they should not be asked pick up their own throats by stranding prematurely some assets which still have some commercial value it's a different story of course if the commercial company is the producing them decide to walk away from that's a that's a different point um I think um also on um um I think uh Andrew and Steve mentioned the broad effects of how we capture this I don't think it's a new discussion I mean mining in Africa there's been a great deal of work over the last 20 years which Catherine I myself have been involved which looks at various ways in which this can be done very many good examples and the message that comes from this is not about corporate social responsibility alone although the companies have a responsibility for more local content more local employment and so on it comes from government as well because what we saw in Zambia in case studies and also similarly in Brazil and in in Tanzania and Ghana is that if government policies are more encouraging to sort of small industries if they take away some of the restrictions you get a huge multiplier effect from a mining investment of a billion dollars um through the rest of the economy it's nothing to do with what the companies have done the mining companies to do what the government is doing so there's a partnership that has to be established if we want to take full advantage of this so you know once in a lifetime bonanza that looks like the countries like Zambia and other countries endowed with some of these and uh these minerals macro fiscal I can agree 100% with Steve on on this it's an absolute crucial ingredient for all this it's very interesting if you look at the the reports of the multinational international banks reporting on their climate financing if you look at the case studies that they mentioned there's a very good report in 2020 on this a lot of their financing they've provided so far World Bank and African Development Bank and European Bank they are basically providing finance to make fiscal arrangements more more robust to climate shocks and I think that's a very interesting thing what they could easily add of course to make fiscal arrangements more robust to these mining opportunities an old age old problem how do we stop countries that find themselves and bowed richly with a new mineral oil and gas resource from blowing it in the way that so many countries have done before they built sort of serious advantages for their own social and economic development in the longer term how did governments of these countries get persuaded to have fiscal arrangements which take a 10 15 year view as opposed to a two or three year point of view on technology finally that's been pretty well answered already you know it seems to be two points one is that the the mining and oil and gas companies have historically shown perfectly capable abilities to espouse the latest technologies you know it's in their commercial interest to do that and I think even the technology is now going green it's in their commercial interest to do that but I don't think it necessarily needs a great deal of push from governments in those countries to make them do that and we've seen all sorts of examples as mining has become more difficult in more difficult oils with more difficult term access and so on mining companies and oil and gas companies have been pretty good at finding new technologies to do that and some classic examples you know tracking is one of the sort of beliefs that can drill horizontally to extract gas from seams that look like they were burned out three years before but I think technology from is really that a lot of the technology that will benefit lower income countries is is easily accessible you know I think the silver energy I mean everyone in Britain is putting silver panels on their roofs now pretty straightforward technology the problem is I think for Africa to find the bankable projects where you know companies will come along and do the large-scale stuff with those simple technologies that get unroutinely in countries like the United States and Germany and Britain and Steve and Andrew may correct me on this but I what I what I see in Africa I do not see that sort of critical massive bankable private sector projects they capitalize on easily available technology that's probably enough so thank you very much Alan I'm we've we've left a very rich menu now for developing country delegates but also the advanced economies to to take to Glasgow on the on the extractives theme of oil gas and mining this is only a subset of the issues so at this point we're over time we're out of time and I would like to thank the panel in this meeting to say that a link to the recording of the event will be sent out to registered participants along with links to the papers and to the blogs we have a very exciting website join us on the Twitter feed we're all going to be talking at COP in a just over a week's time let's try and bring the extractive story which is so important for the developing world into that conversation so thank you to the panel thank you the audience and thank you to you to and ever on the wider technical team so thank you we conclude the meeting