 We're here every week on the Think Tech Hawaii Broadcast Network. I'm Kili Ikeena, president of the Grassroot Institute. Well, you know, here in beautiful paradise, there's a beautiful breed of people who are out there watching out for our interests, their watchdogs. And one of my favorite is a consumer and environmental watchdog, somebody who's taken a hobby and turned it into a profession. He's out there watching out for consumers, making sure that we don't get built or we pay too much. He's also watching out for Mother Nature, the environment, because we don't want to pollute Mother Nature as well. He's also a dear friend of mine and one of the most interesting characters we've had on our program. And today we're going to feature Carol Cox, environmental watchdog. I think you're going to find quite interesting some of the stories he's got to tell. One of them has to do with, well, why you should actually read and monitor your water meter. I'll let him tell us a little more. Carol, welcome to the program. Hey, thank you. Well, it's always good to have you on board here. Have you been keeping safe? I'm keeping safe, but, you know, just once in a while you have to use your head. That's right. And you've used your head in a way that is not all that convenient nor safe in your investigations. Yeah. You've also been attracting a few fireworks from time to time. Yeah. Pre-Christmas fireworks, pre-New Year's fireworks. Well, I'm just going to give a note to our viewers here. If you take a look at some past programs, you'll learn how Carol's own investigations into some of the hanky-panky going on in state agencies, government agencies, and in the commercial world has resulted in him getting beat up, knocked on the head, put into the hospital, and even having his car firebombed. And that's just a day's work. Right. And incentive. So, let me ask you, how do you describe yourself? I know for purposes of this program we said environmental watchdog, but what is Carol Cox being incorporated? Carol Cox is just another human being who cares about right and wrong, justice, environmental justice, fighting environmental racism, and there's such a thing. And all of... I'm going to pause you right here because that sounds intriguing. What is environmental racism? When disproportionately landfills, garbage dumps, industrial sites and waste sites and treatment sites, what have you, are placed or situated in communities of low income people of color. And also that is the other aspect of what I do, looking for the impacts on people, period, but mostly focusing on those that are unfortunately not well off. So you're saying we don't live in a society full of fairness all the time. We have a disparate impact in terms of certain minority groups that are overly represented amongst those who are the victims of environmental hazards. Well, they're in all communities they're impacted. Even for example, I'm working with a group on Kauai now and we're talking about millions of dollars in homes, five, six million dollars, and I'm working with them to prevent a dairy, hoping to prevent a dairy being sited, uphill, upslope in an area that would impact those properties, that community, and the coastal zone, coastal areas. So everybody has to watch out, including the United States Air Force, isn't that right? Yes. And we're going to talk a little bit about that. You know, one of the things that environmental and consumer watchdogs do is look out for the consumer. And usually we're thinking of the consumer as the little guy, the guy who goes to the store and buys a product or someone who buys a car and it gets blown up or something like that. But even the United States Air Force represents American consumers, right? Because we're the taxpayers who support it. So what's going on with the Air Force? Well, you know that the Air Force and like many military agencies have lots of money, a big budget, and if they're not mindful of it, it could be intentionally wasted or other people providing services. And in this instance, the border water supply, the Honolulu border water supply actually overbills the Air Force for some extended period of time upwards of $350,000. That's what they're reporting. Our initial report that we received from internal sources that it was upwards of $50 million. Now, wait a minute. You've got a variance of possibly overbilling the Air Force by $350,000 at the low end. But at the high end, what did you say? $50 million. That was the original information that we received now. And the truth is somewhere in the middle. Somewhere in the middle, but hidden behind closed doors. Well now let me back up a little bit so our viewers know what we're talking about. We're talking about a beautiful part of the island of Oahu, Bello's Air Force Station, which is on the northern part really. And there's an Air Force station there that has housing, it has military facilities, it has training facilities. It needs water, right? It needs water. So it gets the water from the Honolulu border water supply. But like all consumers, it doesn't necessarily read its own meter. So time lag takes place and it discovers maybe they were overcharged. Now tell me the story. How did they discover that they were overcharged by the border water? Well, I want to be very careful and laying out the facts as I know them to be as I got involved. That's right. Initially I was told from internal sources, people that worked there that participated in meetings that there was a discussion of $50 million of overcharged. People who worked where? Worked in border water supply. Okay. Now moving forward, we get that information. That seems like an unreal or almost an impossible amount of money. So with caution, we then write a letter to the border water supply asking, is there any truth to this amount? Is there any truth to the overcharging? Well they wrote us back reluctantly and said, yes, there's an overcharge, but the amount is substantially less than $50 million. Now how do you communicate such a thing? Why wouldn't you just tell us specifically what it is? Then we also wanted to know the cause. And then when did it start? Well, to date, I'm still waiting on the documents that we waited for and we waited two weeks with promises that we would get an answer tomorrow, for example. Now you've not just called them up and asked them and left a message at the reception or on the voice machine. You've actually gone through a process backed by a federal law, the Uniform Information Act. Uniform Information Practices Act. And also for your Freedom of Information Act. That's right, that's the federal law. And it says that a citizen can actually obtain the information that is publicly available to citizens. Yes. A little bit redundant. It assumes that government doesn't make it readily available, but you went through that process. And to this date, you haven't been given the actual amount? Well, we've given an estimate. The Air Force said it's 350,000 approximately. Then the city said it's 358,000. Okay, how close do you think those figures are to the truth? Well, I'm unhappy with any of the answers because, and how close to the truth I think was still far off because there is one little thing here of interest that might find quite interesting. And that is, situated next to Bellows is a city park, which receives waters from the same source. So in actuality, the city basically was consuming water, as we understand. And then in turn, it is a suspect in being some of the consumption that was metered and the government, the federal government, paid for that. That is still out, the jury is still out looking at it. So when you ask what are the answers and how close it is, they've not been transparent. And you have to know now that the Department of Boat of Water Supply is not transparent. It's one of those very secret semi-autonomous situations or agencies. And so it makes it so difficult to obtain information. And so my policy is I'll get the information, I'll inquire of you, but I will still share with the public what we, in the raw form, what we are told that then gives the public an opportunity to see, are they being transparent? Are they being honest? Can I save $350,000? I really can't say because there's so many variables involved here and so many elements of concern that they're not disclosing. Now you've been at this practice for a long time trying to dig deeper. You know that where there's smoke, there's fire, but you're not claiming that there's a fire right now. You're just saying that if it's supposed to be open and known to the public so that we can check it out, the problem itself is it's not open and known to the public and we can't check it out. Right. And you raised a good point earlier. We're not asking the seekers where they keep the nuclear weapons. This is just a water bill. That's right. And so why wouldn't they be so happy to be transparent from the first receipt of my letter or inquiry? Be timely. Well, that's where your knowledge of human nature comes in. You know, where we're not being watched, things happen. Yeah, and keep in mind now, we say the Air Force, but it actually is a taxpayer. And then a couple of years have gone by now where this water supply has been overcharging people because they were not using meters as they claimed they were and with accuracy. They were estimating bills. So in other words, you use 5,000 gallons this year, this week, this month, this billing period at your home, they come back next month and say, well, we'll just estimate the amount. So you could go double that amount or lessen that amount. But most of the time, many people got high water bills. So when we heard about this, we thought this matter had been fixed. We thought that as they promised, they would have fixed it. They didn't fix it. You know, as you've looked into institutions, particularly government institutions, is there a sense that, well, it's not my water. I'm not paying for this water so that the managers don't actually pay as close attention as they would if it were their own costs involved? And we find that to be true in some instances. But this situation is unique. It's so convoluted. And it is if we're dealing with two enemies with the border water supply and the Air Force was not timely. And the answers they gave, you would think it wasn't thank you for raising this issue with us. We're glad that the public is watching out or got our back, so to speak. None of that. Just to very nonchalantly give us something just to keep the dog quiet like the hush puppy at the back door. So Carol, they're not sending you a Valentine greeting this year? No, I never get those. What kind of resistance do you often encounter from agencies? Delays and information. It's like you get caught in the quagmire. You write a request. And the state law, by the way, say that all you have to do to make a formal request, it could be verbal for UIPA for documents, verbal now. But this agency, like many now, will say, you need to fill out the form. But the law states you don't need to fill out a form. It is considered formal when you make that request. OK, well, at least we're going to keep tracking what you have discovered here at Bellows. It looks like there might be something going wrong, but nobody can tell. When we come back from a quick break, we're going to talk with Carol about something that we already know is wrong, that is hurting people and hurting the environment. And learn a little bit more about investigating and bringing about good. My guest today is Carol Cox, an environmental watchdog here in Hawaii. I'm Keena with the Grassroot Institute. You're watching Think Tech Hawaii's Ehana Kako. We'll be right back after this short break. Aloha. I'm Kaui Lucas, host of Hawaii Is My Mainland, here on Think Tech Hawaii every Friday afternoon at 3 PM. Start your Paul Hanna weekend off with the show where I talk to people about issues pertinent to Hawaii. You can see my previous shows at my blog, kauilukas.com, and also on Think Techs. OK, I'm here with Brett Overgaard on the faculty of the School of Journalism and the Department of Communications at UH Minoa. We've had a number of shows. We have a movable feast going on. And we talk about journalism. We talk about language. We talk about communication in general. And we talk about the effect of that on the country and on individual people. Brett, it's so good to be able to discuss this with you in our movable feast. Oh, it's my pleasure. This is a great opportunity. You'll have to come back again and again, OK? Deal? That's the deal. Brett Overgaard, I'm Jay Fiedel. We care about everything. Thanks. Welcome back from that break. We're on Think Tech Hawaii's Hana Kako here every week, Monday at 2 o'clock PM. But broadcast across the world and constantly available online at ThinkTechHawaii.com. And you can see about, oh, maybe 30 to 35 other hours of original content emanating from Honolulu. Produced by Think Tech Hawaii, great people. Jay Fiedel and company, wonderful staff. They're doing a real public service, broadcasting on everything from science and technology to politics and government to the arts to cooking. You name it. They've got it on Think Tech Hawaii. And that's why we like them at the Grassroot Institute, where we say, ehana kako, let's work together. Because think of the terrible alternative if we don't work together. Well, there's somebody who's working for the benefit of consumers and all citizens of Hawaii. And he is loved and beloved by consumers, but not always by people he's keeping a watch on. And that's Carol Cox. Carol, you know, here in Hawaii, we're absolutely dependent upon our power energy plants. And everyone knows the big name, Hawaiian Electric Company, or Hawaii Electric if you're on the big island, the big companies. But what we may not realize is that there are smaller companies that feed fuel into the big grid system to the HECO. And one of those happens to be AEG Co-Generation. Tell us a little bit about that company just by way of background. Well, AES. AES, excuse me, AES Co-Generation. There's one of many companies that provide, or entities that provide energy to HECO, the Hawaiian Electric. All these other entities actually add up to quite a bit of HECO's power supply, at least half, or almost half. And there's another one near AES out there called Kalailoa Partners. We're talking about the Campbell Industrial Area. That's where AES is situated, Campbell Industrial Park. Now, it's in close proximity to the H-Power burning facilities owned by the city, operated by Co-Vanta and Honolulu Leaders of Disposal. Well, what happens at AES? Well, AES imports coal. OK, it's coal-based. Yes. And then in turn, it's brought in at the Deep Draft Harbor there in Barra's Point. All right. And by trellis, air trellis, it's trailered in to the site and dumped on a conveyor belt. OK. And that then is just open coal, and it's mountainous. So open coal is being transported from the shoreline? From the shoreline by conveyor belt. OK, when you say mountainous, you mean it comes of two mountains of coal. Maybe I think it's described as 185 feet in some places. OK. And so they also burn tires, filters, waste oil of some types, and maybe some other products. And these are burnt? They're burnt. With the fumes going out into the air? Yes, the unburned byproduct of those. And then it also generates an ash. So we have two issues here. Fluidized bed coal ash resulting from the burning of the coal. FBCA, fluoridized bed coal ash. Yes. They burn the coal and this ash rises? Well, some of it rises, and they're supposed to have scrubbers in their facility. But the problem is once they burn that coal and the other materials, it leaves a large amount tonnage of ash. All right. And so the problem there is not only are you having the coal itself in natural form, you also have the ash now that is laying open to the elements. All right. And the wind is blowing, the way the state has allowed them. They have a solid waste permit, but the state is just unbelievably anemic in its enforcement effort and regulatory body of efforts on this. Now what is the harm of this ash when it comes to humans actually breathing in the air in the vicinity? Well, a number of heavy metals that are concerned lead, chromium, but one arsenic is associated with arsenic. In fact, some of our viewers may actually have passed by this area. We've got some photos that we'll put up so we can actually get a look at it. Like over here, Carol, if you take a look, this is what you're talking about, the AES cogeneration plant. Arsenic, you say. Arsenic. And there are a number of heavy metals. There's eight heavy metals of concern. So associated with that. But other things, because we really don't know what they are actually burning. You see, the constituents contain in those things. Whatever is associated with tires, for example, also become the problem. And waste oil, what type of waste oil are they burning? Well, what kind of assurances does the public have right now that the air is safe enough to breathe in that region? We've got several bedroom communities out there in the Kapole area all the way through Nanakuli. Well, this area is situated, this facility is situated close to the ocean number one, which was of great concern. There are businesses, and mind you now, it's hard to imagine. But there are businesses where the coal and the coal ash is drifting offsite. And you'll find it in one to two inches thick in other businesses, unassociated with that facility. And the state enforces, and part of their solid waste permit, you cannot have any fugitive dust, meaning your work cannot generate dust and drift over the boundaries. Well, what is the danger of it being so close to the ocean? What does that do with the gas middle of that dust? Concerns with it contaminates those constituents, those heavy metals, or washed down the drain, or by air, or what have you. In our case, what we found is that there's a heavy deposit of these ash of materials and coal dust, just littering the grounds now, saturating in areas. Many areas are just completely covered. You rake back, and you won't see the natural earth anymore. You'll see an inch or two of coal, depending on the wind influence. Now, how did you learn about this, or get involved in investigating? Well, for years, though, because this site, knowing its impacts and the potential impacts and the concern, and knowing how loosely operating the state is when it comes to the enforcement, we believe that we need to keep watching it, as I say, or watch dog, because we don't believe that the state is actively, they will give a permit, like here, with conditions that rips can't be in the fencing. You can't have the coal drifting off site. Well, if you go there now, by flying a drone, we're able to document that coal is drifting off site, the fence is torn, and the dust is blowing, and you can see it daily. Now, you've looked at the regulations that this plant must comply with, and you're suggesting that there are many areas in which it's not in compliance. You're taking some action now, aren't you? You're working with a regulatory body to bring this to light. What are you doing? Well, I'm reluctantly, and with not much excitement about it, because I'm going to an agency that already issues a permit and has conditions of permit, and then they sit on their thumbs and do nothing. So you're going to the flocks for help in watching the henhouse. Right, and then I'm also having to consult with the wolf, also on this. It's just about like that, and it's so obvious. So for example, I filed a formal complaint against this facility with the state health department. I went out at 3 o'clock in the morning. Now, you see this activity at nighttime as well, and the dust bellowing, when I say dust, I use it loosely, the coal ash or the coal dust, blowing away because they're using instrument and equipment, heavy equipment, bulldozers and what have you, to break it up. Now, this coal ash, when it's dumped out, it's kind of loose and mush, but it creates a cape coating on the top. It hardens. So now they've got to go back and take a backhoe or claw, break it up, then put it on the truck and ship it out. That generates the dust, depending on which way the wind's blowing. So this dust is not merely around the area. It's wherever the trucks are going, and it just travels. Right. And this dust, this coal ash now, some, they claim, go to Waimanala Gulf's landfill. Some go to PVT landfill. PVT landfill is using some of it, as they describe it, as fire breaks. But again, it's generating more than they can actually get rid of. And so the state is rather reluctantly enforcing anything. And so when we go to them and file a complaint, provide the pictures that you're seeing here, they have these pictures. And they want to know where we were standing, how long we were standing there, who took the pictures, how did we get such angle. So they want to investigate you more than the problem. Yeah. And then the final remarks are, well, unless we can show that these particles of dust that you find here off the property came from there, there's nothing we can do. They're not going to go in and start looking based upon what you've discovered preliminarily. Well, they are because we're going to be able to file legal action in this particular one, because it's substantial. The impacts are so great of such concern that we're going to take this one to the next level on this occasion. Well, if there are any people who have anything to contribute to your case here, how would they get a hold of you? Contact us at carolcox.com or carol at carolcox.com. And we want to make sure that we get your spelling right, carolcox.com, C-A-R-R-O-L-L. Two R's and two L's and then C-O-X. Two what? Well, that's important. But before we leave today, I'm sure you'd like to hear from our viewers or the public if they have concerns about the environment or some consumer situations. What are the types of things you're looking forward to helping them look into? Things that have impacts on the environment, impacts on communities in a big way, not a dispute between neighbors. There's so many of those. That's where you go, I can help you and guide you to what agencies you contact. But we're looking at the bigger ones that impact communities and impact big portions of the environment itself, the ocean, land, and what have you. So that's what we'd like to focus on, because there's many little fires occurring out there. You know, in this region of Kapolei with this power plant, have there been any reports yet of health problems with children or elderly or anyone at all, or people who may have respiratory conditions? This is relatively stated in that some of the surrounding businesses, the people that work there, speak of congestion, coughs that they didn't have before, and those that are seeing the dust in their business. That is, it's migrating inside of their buildings and what have you, nothing to do with AES, just the dust and what have you. So they're concerned, but I might add now, some might argue there's a cement plant also located in the area, but there's a difference. And it can be told the difference, but they, AES in the States is, well, the allowance for contents and the levels are legal and safe. Yeah, but they are supposed to keep them on their side of the fence. And running down the street into the drain, into the ocean. That's something, isn't it? And did you have people reach out to you and say, look into this? Yes, 95% of the information that we get on any matter starts with honest people. And that's the good thing, it's a misunderstanding and it is not accurate to say, government workers are not honest, they are honest. It's just that they fear the sword that could be beheaded if they're caught talking to and telling the truth. So our informants come to us with anonymity and we do that to protect them, but also to safeguard our sources in further cases that develop. Well, Carol, you're doing a great job and keep us informed and come back and visit us and tell us more of what's taking place. My guest today is Carol Cox, Hawaii's premier environmental watchdog who really puts his neck on the line and his head into his business quite a bit. And I hope you enjoyed it and learned something from today's program. I'm Keeley Akina with the Grassroot Institute and we're signing off for Ehana Kako. Let's work together on the Think Tech Hawaii broadcast network until next time. Aloha.