 which I highly commend to everyone as travel destination, power excellence, it will exceed all of your expectations unimaginably. So anyway, today we're going to dig into the tough stuff, some hard questions about what it's going to take and whether it's even possible for movement in the areas that are the most problematic in this society to actually go forward in humane, equitable way. And we have the great honor and joy of having with us Professor Bernadette Randall, Professor Emeritus, University of Dayton School of Law, and the master and author of the leading internet site on race and racism anywhere, racism.org, access it, check it out, articles on anything related to those topics you can possibly imagine are readily available there. The things you can learn at that site are beyond description and value. And Tim Apicella, who is a fellow think-tech host, a dear friend, and one of the most incisive and insightful commentators and perspectives on Hawaii and national problems that you will find anywhere. And Tim and Professor Randall say it like it is. So what do you think, folks? Is there hope for this society in the areas that are our worst problems? Professor Randall, what do you think? I think no. I'm a basic pessimist. But problem is that we have systems that reinforce themselves and are capable of making changes to any incremental change, so that when you try to do something to change a system, if you don't blow the system up, it adapts and changes and reinforces itself sometimes in ways way worse than the original problem. So right now our system of capitalism, robber capitalism, whatever you want to call it, is so reinforced profit making in all the systems that we have. The problems that we have leads back to that. And I don't see how you blow up capitalism. I just, I just, I think that we can make life better for some people. So, so yeah, I can, I can do things to get more housing. I can do things to get more educated. I can do things to make life better for people. And as a public health nurse, I used to tell people, you advise people individually to do the best they can under the circumstances they're in. And so that may mean that you would advise a person who, poor and black, to eat better, to buy less fast foods, to do all that. But I also understood that it was an impossibility if, without food stores in her, without affordable fresh food in the community. And so on one hand, you want to advise people so that if by chance they are able to do something, they do it. But on the other hand, you know, that as long as you don't change the system, 99% of the people you're advising are not going to be able to make a change. And so I don't see how, I don't, when we talk about change, we always talking about incremental change. And I just don't believe that it's possible to do anything. I think until we can find a way to blow the system up, phew, maybe a zombie apocalypse, apocalypse. That is probably the most incredible several minute encapsulation. And the heart of what's wrong with and obstructing us from moving forward toward a more equitable, humane, responsible, connected society that I have ever heard. And I'm so glad it's recorded. And that we'll be able to make it available to people. Because we can get this stuff out there on LinkedIn and other sites. And people are looking at it now and they're reading it. I hope you'll post it on your racism.org blog as well. But you've just done incredibly well. People have been disconnected. And the people with the greatest needs have been disconnected with access to affordable resources for essential life. Elements, housing, employment, education, healthcare, livable environments, all of those things and more. Tim, your thoughts? I am a little more optimistic. I am a pessimist by nature, but I am optimistic. And not to say, Professor Randall, that this is a point counterpoint show today. But I think there's hope. And I'll refer to a gentleman by the name of Robert Putnam, who originally did an essay back in 1995. And then he followed up five years later called a book called Bowling Alone, the Collapse and Revival of American Communities. And the premise of the book was, since the 1950s, the engagement of all Americans in social activities have been on a steady decline. And when I say social activities, I'm talking about going to church, bowling leagues, Kiwanis clubs, Rotarian clubs, knitting clubs, you name it. Americans used to be heavily involved in social activities outside of the workplace. And with that connectivity of relationships in social activities, I think Americans found diversity from their neighbors, diversity from not their immediate neighbors, maybe from other cities and townships, a commonality that they would not normally get in the open marketplace of ideas. The formation of relationships somehow can oversee the differences of religion and oversee the differences of your political positions. And what Mr. Putnam was trying to say in his 2000 book was democracy is interdependent upon the social contract. This social compact that we have with our fellow Americans has been severely strained. And by empirical data, he was able to show the decline of participation in social groups. What he did, he went to basically where ad agencies got their data on demographics of the consumer. And it was just a treasure trove of data that surveyed about every question you could possibly think of about consumer behavior and social groups. What do they belong to? What did they like? And so he took five years to compile this book because he took great, he took some hits, he took some criticism on his 1995 essay because they said, well, qualitatively, he's onto something, but quantitatively, he can't back it up. Well, five years later, he was able to back it up. And it's been recognized as a landmark case study of what's wrong with America. And now let's fast forward to 2023 or actually the last five, seven years of the polarization of Americans pertaining to their politics. Now it's a sin to extend one's hand across the aisle to work with your Republicans or work with your Democrats. It's a sin. In fact, in the case of the Speaker of the House, that was one of the grievous sins that if you committed, you would not be Speaker of the House. The other one, of course, was you had to be an election denier of the 2020 election. So the point is this, how are we going to prove any of our systems which Professor Randall refers to, those systems are based on human beings. And if human beings are isolated, they're no longer interacting and communicating with one another. There's no good faith amongst fellow Americans because we're suspicious now, because we don't go from the same set of facts. And so how does anything get done or improve as far as systems and politics? If we're suspicious of one another, we're self isolationists. And that is really the basis of how we improve if we don't start engaging the Hawaii Film Festival, I had a documentary called Join or Die based on Mr. Putnam's work. And it's to that we're at at this point in time in this country. So I'm optimistic that people can reengage we can get back into, you know, systems, that system, excuse me, social groups that unite us rather than divide us. I don't disagree with you. And I don't disagree with him on that the point that he was making. I think that's like the difference. What you pointed out, what you just said is individual kind of helping people, you know, getting people more involved, getting people to work across the aisle. I do the work that I do, because I basically because I want to be able to say to my grandsons, when they when they grow up to a shitty ass world, and and they would say, grandma, you know, this world is shitty, what did you do? I can say, well, hey, I tried. You know, I did the best I could under the circumstance. I mean, I do think that there's I mean, I don't I think that there's issues of being disconnected. But that disconnection comes from system failure. People no longer I mean, you it is hard to get motivated to work in groups to do stuff for others. When you know, when you have billionaires donating a million dollars and then asking you to give your heart a $1 instead of donating $10 billion, you know, it's discouraging as an individual to see. Okay, I'm in my seventies. Disturbing for people to see my life work hasn't moved us an inch. And I'm not the only one. Hundreds of thousands of people have was involved in my generation, and we didn't move the needle and inch. And so I can I can't argue for involvement for no other reason to say to our children, we tried. But I can't say that I think doing more of the same thing or the thing in the 50s, which was Jim Crow and racism, as bad as now, I can't say doing more social groups is going to blow up the system. And when people do these when people work together, they, you know, when I get in groups, people get disturbed by me saying blow up the system, they don't want to hear that. They want to have a way to change the system without blowing it up. They don't want to hear that incremental change ain't going to make a difference. Well, I can see why they're upset. And if I owe my pine for a moment, why, to hear that upsets me. It's Professor Reynolds like this, in a vacuum of control, or what you want to call government in a vacuum, you have the deplorables fill the vacuum. And I'm thinking of the deplorables like Donald Trump. This is a want to be fascist waiting to come back in and completely change this form of government and not for the better. I don't think for the individual prosperity would be 10 times worse. If you're one of the 1% your life's going to be much better. But you know, it's that vacuum that concerns me when someone says, listless dismantle the entire system and start fresh, because we are not agents of good free will. Human beings, by and large, are much a nasty critters. And if there's not some sense of moral and ethical guidance, be it through religion or just self temperance, the worst comes to play. And I'm thinking of the Dark Ages, I'm thinking of the Middle Ages. And it didn't go well for people back then. And we can visit those days again. Yeah, and we may need to visit them. I am serious. I know you are. Maybe the witch hunts are a good idea. We're too comfortable. We're so we're too comfortable with the way things may need to get much worse in order for things to get better. You know, I mean, you a fever. I mean, there's a point where a fever will kill you. But mostly a fever is a good thing. And that we should just let a fever, you know, do we let the body work? But we're so afraid. And rightfully so, I don't discount that. I, you know, I think, you know, I think the Republicans are setting up a way by electing a speaker who is pro Trump, so that in the 24 elections, they'll have a speaker of the house who will do what they want to do. I don't know. I can't argue against that. But I do know that we're not gonna make people as long as we are doing incremental change. We're bounding for people to live in homelessness. We're bounding for people to be under uneducated. We've bought where people are going to be without food. You know, racism is going to be rampant sexism homophobia. Those things exist before Trump. Trump on Trump didn't cause those Trump unleashed what was already in people. Yeah. I and I don't know. I don't disagree with you on the the bet what could replace the system to be worse than what we got. But I'm so upset with what we got that I'm willing to risk that. Well, you know, that's the old saying goes, be careful what we wish for, we might get it, you know, and we might not. And we might not, you know, what I wish for. And, you know, I'd be careful what we wish for, we might get it. Well, what I wish for is a society what came after the the the dark ages and all of that stuff wasn't more enlightened society because they learned from that that they wanted something different than that. And they rebelled. They overthrew. I mean, you know, we pride ourselves on our country. But our country came through rebellion. The French Revolution came. I mean, these things came through rebellion. They didn't come from people doing clubs. Well, Americans are unruly bunched by nature. I agree with that. But you know, it just seems to me that there's the argument of dismantling a system versus I guess the the inflection points Americans have received throughout history. And I'm thinking of two inflection points. One was the Vietnam War, where I think Americans really did get a lesson about, you know, our role in the world and basically the mistakes we made, as we thought we were the defenders of democracy and what a terrible price we paid as Americans. I think that was an inflection point that Americans understood for a brief time. And then we forgot the lesson. Very quickly, we forgot the lesson. And then you know, I'm thinking of 9 11. Yeah, very quickly, unfortunately. And then I'm thinking of 9 9 11 as an inflection point is what is our role in the world, particularly in the Middle East? And, you know, how are we conducting ourselves ethically as a nation, as we're trying to do global diplomacy or the lack thereof. And so it's the inflection points that Americans get to think about, and you're right, Professor Randall, that's not changing the system a whole lot. But if we get more inflection points, maybe we will start to say what what what primary elements in our system do we need to correct in order to be a better society and in a society that helps one and all, lift people up, not pushes, push people down and elevate the 1%. So how long do you think that'll take? Well, it's taken 250 years at this point. It's taken 500 years. Yeah, that's good point. And you know, you know, I'm thinking of President Obama's speech about progress, and that progress is never a linear, a linear slight increase or a slope up. It's it's fraught with, you know, backward movement. And I definitely think we're in a backward movement. In the last 50 years, have we seen progress? Yeah, have we seen enough of it? No, not even close. But there was progress. And there was society progress. I think we had economic prosperity for a lot more Americans than we did back in the 1960s, 1950s, 40s. These are slow moving changes and certainly not fast enough for me. And I'm going to guess, Professor Randall, not certainly not fast enough for you. No, not at all fast enough. And, you know, the idea of incremental changes and, you know, change things going up and down and not a linear slope. Yeah, that's true. But you I I don't I'm not as sure that we have been a country in steady progression of improvement. I think that's the myth we tell ourselves because we have short lives. And so, you know, it's kind of short memories too. And short memories. And so during our lifetime, and during our we, we can see the small changes and the things that go up or down. But we don't really have the the long, the long look. And we don't see how capitalism and racism has gone fundamentally unchanged over hundreds of years. And that they've been at the root of most of the problems in this society. And so we are going back to my public health nurse analogy. We are doing better by helping more people in the middle. But we're with we're still in the we're still in the box. You know, we're we're the box expands the box retracts. But we're still in the box of capitalism. We're still in the box of racism. And I don't see that hasn't changed, you know, how it's been expressed has changed. But I don't know that that that's changed in any significant and no, I don't want to say it hasn't changed. It's gotten worse. Both capitalism and racism has gotten worse and worse over the last, I'd say 50 years, like you say, are 100 years. Or did it did it ever really get better? I we are really good on temporary, like, Brown versus Board of Education. Everybody we cite back to that. And that was an important case that got rid of separate but equal as a matter of law. But no change happened. The changes didn't happen. I grew that was what in 53. I graduated from a segregated high school in 66. So and then their studies showing that the United States is still the most segregated, more segregated than during that period. And the schools are more segregated. So I mean, we taught these things as as improvement, but they really weren't. And we really haven't made I mean, we have made improvement in person personality, personal relationships. So I think the and then maybe that's why why we can't move further. Because we think if we're married to a white person, if we're married to an Asian person, if we married to someone different, and if our children are mixed race, and our church is integrated, that hey, look what we've done. While meantime, the you know, people are going hungry and unfit and an experience in police violence, at rates that are increasing, and unwillingness to change the systems that those people live in, willing to do the we're willing to do individual networking, working together, we're not willing to fundamentally change the systems. I just think that societies around the world throughout history is when you see a collapse of the middle class, you get the haves and the have nots. That's when you start seeing, you know, violence in the street, increase of crime and potentially revolutionary type actions. I think we had an expansive middle class in the 60s and 70s and 80s. And then it started to retract. I could, I could say the Ronald Reagan administration definitely was a turning point, an inflection point on the expansion of the middle class. And I think without a middle class, any society, any country is doomed for hard times ahead. And that's, I think that's the crux of part of our problem is economic disparity and pressure on the middle class that is being forced into a less economic class. And the rich get richer and the resentment grows stronger. And what do you say to that? It's got to stop. There has to be a better fair just taxation system that it's not a redistribution of wealth. As the Republicans like to call it, it's paying your fair share. And that's not happening. And that creates resentment about those taxpayers that take very little of what they have in front of them. And those prices are increasing for taxation, but also just good old fashion inflation. And resentment equals basically apathy. Apathy leads to what I call an autocracy or a plutocracy or if you want a fascist fascism. It's a breeding ground for a strongman like Donald Trump to fill that void. And we've got to start looking at the core elements of our despair in this country, I think, and start addressing the the building blocks of what we need to work on. I find it interesting that you I that the middle class, you date the destruction of the growing, if I heard you right, you, you date the growing of the middle class with Ronald Wagan. No, no, no, no, the destruction of the middle class with Ronald Reagan. I was going to say, we see Ronald Reagan totally different. No, no, no. Okay, so we're basically out of time for today. But just last thoughts, Professor Randall, is there anything out there that you see that might offer some promise or possibility of movement toward that kind of age of enlightenment and renaissance where people can live humanely, responsibly, equitably, and kindly with each other? I don't see anything. Because even though I see Trump and the Republic Republicans move as fascists, I see the Democrats as a milder, more gentler, spacious. They they that that they do a little bit of here and a little bit of there. And their neither party is about fundamentally changing the system. I they support wars, both parties support wars, both party, the Republicans attacks more, but the Democrats, you know, they they are not, you know, they they do some things, but no, I don't see. I don't see anything out there that's moving towards what I see. And I don't, to be honest, I don't have a clue about how to do that. I just really fundamentally bleed to my bones that as long as we work within the system, we will maintain the system. Tim, last thoughts. Wonderful, Professor Randall. Thank you. Earlier on, I said I'm a, you know, a pessimist at heart. And unfortunately, here here it comes. I think we don't improve a whole lot moving forward. I think technology gets more and more into our lives that leads to greater isolationism within the American population. isolation means less, not more human communication, less human communication equals a deterioration of relationships. And if we don't have coal coal, you know, coalitions of within our communities, we don't have a good solid healthy democracy. And that leads to the Donald Trumps of the world. So I'm not optimistic because we can't and we're not going to stop technology advances. Thank you both for extremely valuable thoughts and insights. And I think in wrapping up, one of the things that we're hearing and seeing is that as individuals, we still have those moral human connective responsibilities. And we're going to live them and fulfill them the very, very best we can for the generations coming for our children, for our grandchildren, for the people who inherit whatever world we leave to them, leave them. But in addition to that, we need to be extremely careful that things that we do that enable change that brings more equitable, humane, responsible connections and life between people don't simply serve and enable the perpetuation of the systemic figures, deficiencies and inequities that are oppressing far more people than is humanely acceptable. Thank you all for your time, your thought, your insight. Think Tech Hawaii. Hard questions and hard times.