 Good evening. I want to welcome in this webinar today, this evening, distinguished guests who have agreed to take part in a series of webinars and today is the first one on the reality in different regions of Africa, dedicated to a report which I as a reporter on the internet is working on and this report is working at the moment on a report that will shape the future relationship of commercial investment between him and Africa. With my colleagues, fictive reporters from other political parties, we have discussed and before finishing a final version, we have decided to listen to the Africans, what you have to say about the way they should take the relationships. On the occasion that this webinar is just three weeks ahead of the EU Africa summit in Paris, organized together by the European Union authorities and the African Union authorities. We want to raise challenges to the current and to the future. Problems, challenges, views on how to shape things. And therefore, I want to welcome in this hour today evenings webinar. Dr. Peter Mutukumatupi, he is Secretary General of the East African community. And I'm really happy that he agreed to be with us this evening. I want to welcome Dr. Isaac Shiniekwa from the Economic Policy Research Center at the Marquere University. And I also want to warmly welcome Mrs. Jane Nalunga, Executive Director of the Southern and Eastern African Trade Information and Negotiations Institute, Siatini. Well known maybe to a lot of participants in this webinar as well, from Uganda. So that was the warm welcome to all of you. And I don't know exactly if Honorable Dr. Peter Mutukumatupi is already with us. I don't see him yet in the webinar. So let me introduce maybe some two, three ceases and remarks from my point of view from the European Parliament's International Trade Committee concerning the work we have to do. And maybe also I'm a member of the left group in the European Parliament. While we are considering it very important to have such a joint approach in drafting the report and by drafting report, of course, to lay a basis for rethinking the trade relations between the European Union and African countries. We are meeting in a very specific situation. We are all going through the pandemics of COVID-19. We are all affected in different ways, but we have already a fourth wave with the Omicron mutation of the coronavirus spreading out in a lot of European member states. We have to adapt our ways of organizing the work. We have to adapt by organizing the family lives because parents have to say at home with children can't go to the school. We have the closing of kindergarten. We have different issues here in Europe and probably the same situation or similar situation. Our African sister and brothers are dealing with in this regard in their current issue. And to be very clear, I guess, fighting epidemic needs, joint solidarity, comments, approaches to fight the virus and to learn how we can live with the virus in future. What does it mean for us? Because this virus, the COVID-19 pandemic, has a deep impact on the economies as well. Let's see the closing down of borders, the face of how economies can recover. So that is a topic in the WTO. It's a topic in the United Nations system. It is a topic probably of course also for the African Union as it is for the European Union. And here I think we have really a lot to do. I welcome now Honorable Dr. Peter Mutipou-Matuki is just with us. Sorry for having already started because we didn't know exactly when you are able in your time to join us. We are very happy to have you with us in this evening. I just informed that we had from the European Parliament the task to draft a report about trade and investment relations between the European Union and the African Union. In particular, of course, with the AFC, FTA. And we want to elaborate today what are the experience, what are the problems, what are the views in the different regions in Africa. We are starting with the East African community, so welcome Secretary General. And I have put to you already in written a question for giving you a certain guidance what we expect from you this evening. A brief evaluation of the trade and investment relations between the EAC and EU at the current moment. What do you see? What do you expect? And what do you think went well? Where are problems? What could be better? And knowing that, of course, the EPA is a complicated situation also between the EAC and EU. And how does the EU-EAC exchange relate to the achievements for the African CFTA? I think that could be for the beginning, a good occasion for you to give us a short briefing where we are. The floor is yours. Thank you very much and good evening. I must apologize for some technical issues, but I'm now, I was with you, but I didn't have the right to speak, but I'm happy that now I'm with you. I want to thank you for first and foremost, inviting us into this discussion as the East African community, and indeed all my colleagues are panellists who are participating in this. And a very important topic as we begin the new year 2022 opinion to all of us. I would say right from the beginning that indeed the theme of today's meeting on whether Europe is in a listening mode. Rather from where I say, I think we should go beyond listening mode to action mode. But some of the things that we do as regional economic blocks could be East African community with European Union and African Union. We represent the people. We work for the people. Indeed, our own treaty establishing the East African community puts the people fast. And all that we do we do for the people of East Africa and I know from where you sit, whatever you do in Europe, we do for the good for the people of Europe, but just to go straight to the, to the, to the topic called in terms of where we are. And I think we must must appreciate that there's some lessons that we're learning from COVID pandemic, that world, the world and global is one. One part of the world affected by a pandemic, it affects all of us. So the need to hold us act in a very coordinated manner. And therefore, in fact, the whole saying that the world is a village. I think COVID came to tell us that the world is a village and therefore important that whatever we do, we do in a very coordinated manner. But to thank you that we were able to share in terms of the European Union and the East African community, the historical ties and where we have come from. And so forth, as obviously put the relations between the East African community, this part of Africa and EU very closely. And the two regions, of course, I've enjoyed I would say very cordial relations and working and in terms of trade, etc, for quite some times and that is actually as early as even 1975. And I even the relations that existed. And that that were there. But, but to say that under the normal convention and the continued partnership agreements that indeed brought some sorts of structured way of dealing with one and Europe and the rest of the world, that is simply countries it is a, it's defined on how countries in different parts of the world should relate. And that is why we that with the continuity the normal convention that define clear that now we are supposed to be doing. But we must appreciate because of circumstances revisions on how we need to deal with having done a number of things because the global dynamics, things have changed. And at some point when the WTO members were contested the preferential treatment of export from SP countries. At that time, I think the EU comply with the WTO rules and therefore came in now the issue of negotiating on a reciprocity basis. And that brought in our economic partnership agreements that have been there from 002 to date. We must appreciate that the country's SAP countries, at the time he had enjoyed very preferential market access relative to the EU, and that is something. But therefore the East African community ended into negotiations with the EU and economic partnerships and that started as earlier 2004. And since then this negotiation continued up to around 2014. But therefore from where we sit at the SAP and community with six partner states, and for your information, we assume having the other scene during the community as the second member, and that brings the block to a level that obviously in the global standing. We have to really participate. And therefore now we discuss and therefore some points, different partner states of the ESC categorize different. And therefore because of that you find the mandation of a city one may not have been that easy, because we were categorized differently from where we sit with some countries in the SAP and community categorized as LDCs, while others categorize. As a block then met some challenges, but the treaty establishing the SAP and community. The countries that are ready in a certain arrangement may still proceed. And therefore the summit of the heads of states of the ESC. We met in some times in February, last year, they agreed that a pass should proceed. ESC should proceed with a pass, but on the basis of variable dimension, meaning that the countries that are ready to proceed can proceed. And that is why Kenya took the step of proceeding. However, the initial thinking was that we should have actually ended into help us as a community. So in the process of these that is obviously signed into their pass, Kenya was able to ratify this at some point. And therefore trying to see how to build the capacity of the rest of the partner states and seeing where they are gaps so that we can allow them also join, and all of us join as a community. And therefore, giving a bit of background of that, this issue a number of issues are still within the efforts, aware that is second community and EU in terms of how they trade profile and how there's been happening. That the ESC share with EU trade volumes by 2020 was almost 0.2%, 0.2%. Exports to the EU from the East African community were mainly coffee, cut flower tea to back of fish vegetables that providing for most five, five, five, you know, for seven, in terms of million euros with primary which mainly took for primary goods accounting for about 95.7%. While manufacturing goods best country for 5%. And the imports from the EU, from the EU into the region were mainly machinery and mechanical appliances, and that meant that primary goods accounted for 24.4%. While the manufacturing goods accounted for about 71.4%. And that is to say, the two Europe and Africa are critical and they need their strategic partners. And therefore some of these agreements that we enter into, we need and agree need to be very people centric, we need to see how do they support and promote the welfare of the people. Sometimes, you know, we may need to revise and see how do we enter agreements that indeed the support would be win-win, so to speak. And that is why I think in some of the areas we must appreciate, much has been done, much needs to be done. And I think from where we see it as a certain community, we are still committed and I've seen some partner state making good progress in terms of how we want to enhance the EU efforts. Therefore, that is to say, much that is a bit of history, but some issues we must appreciate went on well. And that is why we're saying that when you look at article our own treaty seven, it provides for the variable geometry and therefore we can still relate with EU on the basis of who of the partners is of the ESE is ready to proceed. So, both parties, we must appreciate also EU and ESE demonstrated level of flexibility in the negotiations. Yes, ESE has been flexible in it. And we must appreciate that, of course, the flexibility has been very important in these processes. And where we see it as a certain community, economic and development operation is critical, is core to us, and is provided, and we need to engage and possibly take this further to the next level. And that's why I'm saying we need to even be more inclusive, bring private sector on board, closer with the public and government, and ensure that of course EU societies are also participating in some of these negotiations. So whatever arrangements we are taking to be provided and informed by the principle of inclusivity. In terms of what would be better, I think we may need to see how do we strengthen, how do we ensure the EU, the ESE, EU, the EPS is in terms of quality is improved. And how do we strengthen, how do we give it a more, more bigger energy, that's what is done benefit the people. So perhaps I would say that we need to, we need to really look into some of the realities and the practical aspects, as it were, and see how we could possibly strengthen our negotiations. And then it can provide, to be win-win, as it were. So, possibly from the EU side, considering to address the issues of the financial needs of the LDCs, look at the fact that matches of post COVID, it's the entire world, but most of the countries in Africa were badly it, because largely they were depending on, you know, the global supply chains, and therefore that affected, you know, that affected them, how we were getting supplies of, you know, the raw materials, etc. But also the economies were not supported at the same, you know, way in terms of uniformity, some countries were able to provide some incentives, while others in that capacity, quite a number of people lost jobs, lost incomes, etc. And therefore, how can EU demonstrate and create capacity to a private sector and even public sector in terms of recovery? Remember, even the issues of access to vaccine becomes and still a big challenge to Africa. And therefore, important that whatever is happening in the EU, EU to be on the front line to support possibly the access of COVID vaccines, because that is one way that would be assured of equal recovery. We're still talking of an average below 20% in most of the countries in Africa, while the rest of the world could be above 80% in terms of vaccine. So, I would say that EU remains a very strategic region for Africa, and particularly for East Africa. I think we may need to aware that now the African continent of free trade area provides an opportunity of over 1.3 billion in terms of market. How can Europe now position itself strategically partner with Africa, so that now we can even see how to harness and, you know, and build the capacity of the African continent as it were. I'm seeing from where we are as Africa, maybe the next, you know, the next factory of the world would be Africa in terms of the raw materials in terms of capacity. And therefore this partnership would be this is the right time for EU possibly to take advantage of this and closely work with Africa and most of the regional economic blocks, aware that the GDP that is coming around the CFTA is almost 3 trillion US dollars, and this is something we cannot take for granted. As a means we need to build their capacity, achieve more economies of scale, and improve farm level efficiency, and also focusing on specialization and industrialization. The greater focus on value and decision in increased the local content and development, but also strategic partnership where we see would encourage to see more coming from Europe coming to Africa taking advantage of the larger market, and therefore to name from where we see from where we see it, and going by the records, SCFT year we will boost Africa into Africa trade by 52.3%. Once impurities and non-tariff barriers are eliminated. And I think potentially Africa is the continent to watch Africa is the continent you need to talk to. I think that's what I was saying, we move we move beyond listening and action, because the people now are so dynamic and they want to see what action are the governments and the regional economic blocks doing in terms of responding to the challenges that they are facing as a people. And therefore I think we need to, we need to move fast. We may not have the luxury of time in terms of getting a bit of, but we need to move fast because the people themselves, whom we represent are moving and expecting that we need to move with speed. Again, see how do we even on board the youth who are very energetic and we can take advantage of the skills understanding and also women, how do we support, build the capacity of women, particularly those who are doing a cross border trade. And with all this, it becomes very easy that, that we need to look at some of the trade arguments with view to strengthen them, but also informed by the principle of inclusivity. So that we got a sector of, you know, population, it is safe. I thank you and I think possibly that would be the introduction in terms of why you look at it and based on the query that you asked me, but very exciting and I want to congratulate you for indeed organizing this very timely, you know, workshop that talks about how we need to go forward. But let us now move from listening to action. Yeah, I very much agree with you excellency that we have to come from talking to action to to acting that I fully agree. The question is in what direction what issues we have to take on board. Before I give the floor to our next panelist, I want to welcome Barry Andrews in our, in our meeting in our webinar because he's following, and he is the president of the SDG Alliance of the European Parliament. Welcome Andrew. And we have also the former chair of the International Trade Committee with us, Helmut Markov, who is following this discussion and we have also with us. The representatives of the Pan African Chamber of Commerce, Wendell Addie. So, welcome to all of you and of course to all other participants as you have seen already in the chat, you can raise questions directly to the panelists and to all participants. I can only but encourage to take part in the debate. A lot of questions on the table, obviously, even after your introductory remarks. Dr. Matuki and I would now, before I give a first question, which has already put in the chat to you. The floor to Dr. Isaac Shiniekwa, he is from the Economic Policy Research Center at McHirere University. So, another eight minutes to you so that we have enough time really for the discussion, please flaws yours. Thank you very much. I indeed appreciate being given an opportunity to share my views about this and distinguished panelists, members of parliament and everybody. Before I start, I would like to find out moderator. I have two parts. I have one part of the ESC and African Union and then ESC and European Union. Should I handle one first and the other later? Oh, I go straight up everything. Go ahead. Everything. So, I might maybe 10 minutes or so. Thank you. When you look at the structure of trade between the ESC, the African Community countries and the rest of the world, you'll notice that we do a lot of trade, export trade, especially with the region. We are exporting quite a lot into the region and then the commissar region, so to say. And then when it comes to imports, we import quite a lot from Asia, that's China and India. And you also notice that, yes, we do quite a lot of trade with the European Union, but over the years, considerably, there's been some decline here and they just want to give that perspective. Before moving into what we could do to improve export trade from the ESC to the rest of the continent to start with during this region of this moment of COVID. And those who are organized in terms of E-Trade, they were able to do quite a lot because they were able to communicate within the different countries or regions and they were able to sell and buy. But we have deficits in terms of first of all globally, a framework for E-Trade. Okay, e-commerce. We have standalone positions and I think with really ESC, we are still grappling, we haven't yet sort of concretized how to handle this. And I think this will help us to do quite a lot of trade. That's point number one. Point number two, we need to solidify, consolidate the regional integration process that we have started. There are gaps here and there, but we need to do more of that. And of course, now the FCTA, we have the Commissar ESC SADAC, what you call the 12-partite of the, I mean, about 26 countries. If these consolidate the regional integration, breaking the barriers, tariff barriers, breaking the non-tariff barriers, and putting frameworks for easier flow of goods and services. I think regional integration is one of the things that we will need to really consider to improve on exports. Now when you look at the kind of trade we do, like the Secretary General did mention, it takes narrow patterns of trade. We depend on primary products and involve low levels of, which leads to low levels of inter-country trade. You notice that we export raw materials, not processed, if processed, not, a lot has been added to that. So this limits our levels of diversification. We need to diversify to be able to break into other markets. We need for specialization to be able to, considering primary products or commodities, oil and gas alone is not sufficient. It's necessary but not sufficient. So economic diversification is something that we need to consider seriously to be able to reach out to the middle markets, to sell what others are selling in those markets. Now as you notice, another point, as you notice right now, the Ugandan Ambi forces are in the Congo. As we talk right now, trying to flash out the ADF. Now with conflicts here and there, you are not likely to do quite a lot of trade. You have a problem in Somalia. Right now we have a problem in Ethiopia. So with political tension, conflict, violence, it's likely to discourage the ability of the region, its African community, to be able to trade and do more than what we are now doing. We need to deal with the conflict. Conflict is one of the biggest challenges. Then we have infrastructure problems. Sub-Saharan Africa has lots of deficits in terms of infrastructure and the deficiencies make it very difficult for growth and productivity. And the transportation costs are really, really, really high, extremely high. According to a UN Economic Commission for Africa report, only about 30% of African roads are paved as a consequence. And shipping a car from Japan to Abjarn would cost you about $1,500, but doing the same from Addis Abab to Abjarn is $5,000. So infrastructure to enable movement is very critical, as you are aware. The Coronary Gase left us with the roads and rail lines from where raw materials are to the cost. But linking us internally to be able to trade is still a very big challenge. Of course, even on trade facilitation facilities, all these are extremely important. So infrastructure is, I was told that one of the most expensive routes is in Tebe in Nairobi when you fly. Very expensive, very few kilometers, but very expensive. How would we bring this down? These are the areas that will help us to increase. Then we have border issues. When you come, border customs environment issues within the intra-African trade. The fees are high. Charges at those customs points are quite high. According to doing business reports, sub-Saharan Africa, where East Africa is the world's most expensive region to trade. Moving across borders, it can be very expensive. Of course, quite a lot has been done, but there's more needed to be done. It takes sometimes more days now in East Africa from Umbasa to Kampala. It takes about 21 days. Now it is four days or so, which is an improvement, but we need to move further than this to be able to do trade. So border issues, one border stop points, these are issues that need to be addressed very seriously. At the content level, of course, we now have the past system, the payment system, what we refer to as Pan-African payment and settlement system. If I want to trade with the country in West Africa, I need dollars, I need euros, I need pounds to be able to buy. But this system, through the central banks, is going to help us to sell and buy using our own currencies. I would sell whatever I'm selling to South Africa using Ugandan currency, and the South African will receive runs. If this system is being piloted in West Africa right now and going to be implemented at the FCT level, this will really, really, really help quite a lot. Then in terms of the rules of origin, we are now negotiating at the FCT level the rules of origin. I mean, they are critical. They determine the nationality of a product. How do we design the rules of origin when we are actually having a lot of intermediates in our production lines to be able not to fail export trade? For example, the accumulation levels must be organized in such a way that they will encourage us to be able to sell because the rules of origin are actually possible. Without them being formulated so well, we will not be able to perhaps get what we want. They must factor in infant industries. At the same time, they must factor in trade to be able to move. Like the Secretary General mentioned, we need to encourage investment, both domestic and foreign, FDI flows, put in place sufficient rules and law-consistent predictive macroeconomic policies as a predictive investment. Also, we subscribe to rational conventions and institutions that protect investors. These have to be done in such a way that if I'm coming from Japan or from UK or from European countries to invest in the ESC, I am protected. I have everything in place to be able to work. So this is yet another very important area. Technology adoption. We have technology deficits. We need to do many things to work on that. There's a problem or an issue on intellectual property rights frameworks. I think on the Kenya within the ESC has, I think, a lot to that effect. The others are still grappling. We haven't yet gotten to a level of using these to harness production and development of technology. So we need to institute frameworks to work on the technology deficits, promote technology transfer, incubation, and adoption. That is another area that we need to think about. Then effective and terminal addressing of non-tariff barriers. Within the ESC, we have the monitoring committees to handle non-tariff barriers. We even have a law that has been ascended to by the Heads of State. Now, these laws should be operationalized so that we don't get into issues of non-tariff barriers mutating, evolving, and changing from time to time. Same things but appearing in different forms. This will also encourage trade both within and outside the ESC. Now, we need to negotiate meaningful tariff reduction under the ongoing tariff status at the FCT level. This is extremely, extremely important because if we don't get that right, and I think the process is going on, we are about 80-something percent through. This is something that needs to be worked on extremely. And I think that was an aim of report that talked of restrictive reports as one of the limitations to trade within the region. The Secretary General talked about the difference of industrialization. We have a very big difference. We are not going to sell diversified without pursuing industrialization as a policy. Within the ESC, we have a strategy. We have a policy for industrialization. Then we have the national ones. Just to give you an idea, when you look at our regional exports that are manufactured, it's only 18 percent. If you get an average from 2000 to 2019, about 18 percent South Africa where we are. Yet when you go to Asia, it's about 72 percent. When you go to European Union, it is 70 percent. So for you to be able to trade, you need to industrialize. It's a must. And that's why our average value added is quite low. Very low compared to the rest globally. Again, the Secretary General touched on something which is the last point on East African community and then the rest of Africa. How to increase trade, nurturing small scale sector. SMEs are the largest components of our businesses. Now these ones are not sometimes in the mainstream formal sectors. So they are really struggling with a lot of problems. They break the economies, employ the people, but they are not within the mainstream. And they're operating alongside giant multinational corporations. So how do we bring these in the mainstream? What policies do we put in place? These are issues that need to be addressed. And finally on this, we have the third parties coming to the ESC to negotiate treaties with us. We have had the USA expressing itself, Turkey and others. I just mentioned those two. Negotiating these third parties, we need a lot of thoughts. What do they mean for the regional integration that we have within the ESC? Are they adding on value? Are they coming to break it apart? What exactly are we going into? So this is something that, because they come with what we call the mutual plus clauses. I'll just give an example, dispute settlement mechanism where companies can sustain states. These are no simple issues. We may take them lightly, but eventually you get one country. With the case that amount billions of dollars of euros, etc. There are issues of intellectual property rights. How would you deal with third parties that are coming? And I think to me that's something that, so these are my thoughts on how we can have the ESC increase trade with the rest. Moderator, if you permit me, let me proceed to the European Union very quickly. I don't know whether I should proceed. My thoughts on the European Union. You can proceed, but we have to take into consideration the time. Alright, I'll be very fast. The time because we have to give all the Jane Nalunga the chance to come in. And then maybe we have a joint discussion because there are already 30 questions in the chat and the Q&A pillar. But so two minutes more and then I go over to the next speaker. Okay, I'll move very fast. On the EU, some of the points I've mentioned really do apply in a way, but a few things. One, the European Union has a trend called shifting consumer preferences. There's a lot of changing dietary preferences. And then the issue of standards for the East African community to be able to benefit from these trends and changes. There's need to build a capacity to comply. Whether internally, whether with external help for you to be able to reach the European Union markets and benefit from them. The issue of standards because of shifting consumer preferences because of changing dietary preferences within the European Union and standards and regulations. There is need to build capacity that one I'll leave it at that. Again, the other one is we have different frameworks, not frameworks as such, but regimes like the EBA, everything but arms. Now of course we have the economic partnership agreements and many other preferences that have been extended to the region. And sometimes this comes with a lot of challenges, like when the Kenyans said I'm signing the EBAs and then said no hold on, we're not signing, we need to find out what's going on here. Why don't we have one, why don't we harmonize and have one regime? Because response to this different regime sometimes becomes problematic. Then the last point on this perhaps is the impact of EU aid for trade. Can we have a more just based programming for this money so that we have value for money for aid for trade instead of just if it's results oriented, perhaps it will create more impact than what's happening right now. Perhaps stop there for the time being, perhaps when the questions come up, I'll be able to respond to them. But these are some of my thoughts on how we can increase trade between the EU and its staff companies. Thank you. Thank you very much, Dr. Isaac, for this very interesting, I would say very concrete and precise also and view into the reality in the East African region. This leads me to Jane Nalunga, Executive Director of CERN Tini from Uganda, so maybe you can also look into this reality, give us additional picture or just stressing what has been said, so that we are able then to go into discussion. I would have a lot of questions already now, but probably there will arise among the participants of our webinar even more. Jane, the floor is yours. Thank you so much Honorable Helmut and good evening Comrades who are participating. First of all, I would like also to appreciate the listening mode and especially the fact that the mode has been opened up to other actors like the civil society, beyond the government officials. It's true that we need to review and reassess relationship between the trade and investment relationship between EU and Africa, given that EU is one of the trading partners of Africa. So if we are to recover from the COVID pandemic, build resilience and also achieve a transformative development that can deliver the SDGs, we need to reassess the relationship. And I think that COVID pandemic also gives us an opportunity to dare to think differently, to assess the past and also to look at our policies. One, I think I need to emphasize the issue of the economic partnership agreements, because this is the principle trade policy instrument EU has for Africa. And since as the Secretary General pointed out to that, the negotiations started way back in 2002. These negotiations have given a rise to a number of problems for the regions, but also for the CFTA. They will have challenges for the CFTA. And I will go straight to the East African region. As the Secretary General pointed out, at the current state today, Rwanda signed, they didn't ratify. The rest of the countries didn't sign, Kenya ratified, and now they are looking at implementing the EPA bilaterally. This is going to have an implication on the East African regional integration, because we have a common CET, a common external tariff. For example, if we want to have regional value chains, and Kenya is trading with EU, it's going to affect the regional integration. That issue has been raised by the Secretary General. I think it's really debatable. The issue around the variable geometry. And for us as civil society, we have been saying it's unfair for Africa to destroy their regional integration using principles, using wrongly the principles which are in the treaty. The variable geometry, it's clear that it was put in place for internal, it was an internal mechanism to allow partner states as an integration bloc to implement integration projects at a different level, different speed internally that Uganda, you can be able to take three years to implement a certain policy, a certain project, but it has never been meant for Saudi parties, and that's wrong. And we're using variable geometry to kill our own regional integration. To go back to the EPAs, the EPAs are going to affect the continent of free trade agreement in two ways. They are destabilizing the regional economic groupings, yet the regional economic groupings are the building blocks of the CFTA. Then two, the EU is negotiating deeper EPAs. They have started with a ace of five countries, Komoro, Mauritius and all those countries. And when you look at the issues which have been put on table, which they are negotiating, these are issues of investment, issues of intellectual property rights, digital trade. These are the issues which we are going to negotiate under the CFTA in the second phase. So that means that what EU is negotiating with a ace of five under that deeper EPA is going to circumscribe what we are going to negotiate as Africa in the CFTA. And for me, this is a big, big challenge. But we also find that the EU is negotiating with other countries on investment, investment issues. So it's going to be a challenge for Africa. But there are also other challenges with the EPA, and that's why countries like Uganda and Tanzania didn't sign. For example, one, the very extensive liberalization, and that's phasing out of a number of key trade policy tools like export taxes. So I think, for one, I think it's really important that the EU reconsider the economic partnership agreement as its principle tool. And it's not true. Last year, the other day when we are discussing this issue, one of our Honorable Member of Parliament from the European Union said that it's African countries who are demanding to negotiate EPAs with the EU. And for me this, I don't think it's true. We have seen how Kenya was fogmatched into signing the EPAs. Kenya was threatened with an increase in tariffs on their fish and flowers. So I think we need a fundamentally structuring because Africa today needs police space to be able to put in place policies at domestic level, at regional level, and at continental level. Policies that would be able, can be able to help Africa to weather the post-COVID challenges and EPAs counter to this. So specifically for the ESC region, I'm requesting that the EU should consider the ESC as an LDC region because all the five countries of the ESC are LDCs, apart from Kenya. And in any case, when you look at Kenya's parameters, human development indicators, they also have their own challenges. So let the EU consider ESC as an LDC region, treat it as one region so that it can be able to preserve its regional integration. And this has been a longstanding request by the EU, but also the LDC status to provide duty-free and quota-free market access can be extended to the entire Africa. And we have single rules of origin so that we can be able to accumulate and be able to have continental and regional value chains. At the multilateral level, I'm requesting the EU also to spearhead meaningful reforms at WTO because we need a supportive global trading system. Today it isn't. We need to put on table back issues which are of interest to Africa. For example, issues around agriculture, issues of agriculture subsidy, issues of the special safeguard mechanisms so that we can be able to protect our agriculture. So that's also another area which we need to also consider. And back to the ESC. I think, and it's good that Secretary General is here, I think we need to, as a region, consider where we are in the global trading system. We need to maintain our unity. We don't need to go into valuable geometries to discuss individual countries with other third parties. We need to increase our productive capacity. We need to promote regional value chains. We need to reassess our agriculture and industrial values. Because if we are talking about industrialization, we need to reassess that we need also to be able to rethink our investment policies, both investment and trade policies, but I will concentrate on that investment policy. Beyond attracting FDI, we need quality FDI. We need to rebalance the rights and obligations of the investors. We need to rebalance the rights of the investors, the people as communities as workers, the rights of governments and the rights of the environment. Because you'll find what we have today as investment policies, the rights and obligations are skewed. All the rights go to the investors. They come in. They do what they want. They don't so circularly, then they transfer what they want. So we need to review our investment codes and as ESC, we need to revive our East African investment code so that we can be able to cooperate and avoid the risk to the bottom. But again here, we need policy space from the EU because the EU is already negotiating investment protocols with a number of African countries. But we also need to put issues over human rights in our investment policies. Human rights are central. The investors should provide decent jobs, should so circularly. We should be talking about joint ventures so that we can be able to strengthen our SMEs. So chair, I think there is a lot we need to be done, but like I'm stressing the need for policy space to be able to have policies which come from below. For example, the investment policies, review investment policies at domestic level, at regional level, and then escalate them at the CFTA. That will require policy space from the European Union. I will stop there. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Very precise view on the situation probably are coming back. As you said on the policy space we need. So I will turn the first question back to the secretary from Francesco Marie from the German NGO brought to the world. Is Kenya's EPA gratification not harming the EAC integration in the future also AFCAA development and building up, giving the EU and privileged access to EAC market and AFCFTA members without the possibility for Kenya neighbors to defend them from EU exports via the Kenya liberalization obligations. Shouldn't the EU freeze all EPA obligations at the same time, giving all African countries free market access, as it was in the case during the EPA negotiations from 2000 to 2008, within WTO waiver. I mean this is a question and link to this is also a question also from Marie to Isaac, how the industrialization of the EAC with open borders to the EU for industrial goods via the Kenya EPA door will be possible. No country has industrialized without first having protected its industry. Look to the EU, for example in the 60s and 70s in the car industry against Japanese and West imports with high tariffs, still in force. Africa will do the same and compete with open borders to the EU. Is that really possible? So that are two questions already in the chat race. I wanted to introduce in the beginning, but probably I could add one more question. When we are speaking about the Zoll issue to both of you, we have spoken a lot about the intra-regional trade as a necessity and a precondition for the development in the region, but probably that is true also for the other regions in Africa. And Honorable Secretary General of the AFC-FTA Secretariat, Van Kelemene said on Monday that he is considering the AFC-FTA not as a trade agreement alone, but as a vehicle or as a tool for Africa's economic transformation. And that this importance of the economic transformation of Africa has to be viewed within the context of the continent's historical position in the global division of labor largely as a producer and export of raw materials and natural resources. And that leads me to the question, how we are dealing in this whole relationship you have introduced today as ideas from different angles and the questions we are discussing in the European Union, how we are reshaping the value and the supply chains in a similar and parallel way. So how we are doing that and to Jane, you have spoken about the investments. I would add the question, yes, money is needed, investors need also a certain political stability if they're coming and if they want to invest money there. So who are, and you said you need the increasing of domestic to raising domestic money for being first in the domestic investment area successful and not becoming a subject for foreign direct investments, etc. So that is a complexity of the issues, and maybe you could elaborate a little bit more that your views on these expressions before we are continuing the debate. Dr. Matuki. Thank you. Thank you very much and I want to start by appreciating presentations by Jane and Isaac in the garden to the top of the day. But what is coming out is that the world is becoming smaller and we need to reflect on the trade agreement that partners are getting into so that reflect on the realities that are existing currently. And I think this is a challenge I want to put all of us aware that the intention of a pass was supposed to to see how smoothly, you know, integrate the SCP countries into the world economy, and that will initial intention of this. And we need to ask ourselves whether we are still on track in that in that in that in that aspect. And secondly see now the issues of the global pandemic and so how do we want to be a post hobby. We want now to look at the reality is because now we have known where we have strengths and where we have weaknesses, and see whether we can really negotiate or possibly strengthen some of this trade agreement, so that they, they give a proper reflection. That's my initial thinking. But to the question that is being raised. The idea in a pass is not I mean, the Russian. It is very unfortunate to that the partner state of the South African community are categorized differently. When we come to the efforts of us, LDCs and others are developing. And I want to agree with the speaker that we were categorized as the same possible that should have given a very good starting point. We try to see how it works. Unfortunately, that is not the case. And that is why, when Kenya decided to ratify and possibly start negotiating on a pass. It was because a number of people citizens of East Africa from that particular country were losing jobs, because they were aware of most of the things that were going to the new market and cut flower, you know, it is the things that are auto culture, which is lemba, lemba intensive. And therefore, most of the people in Kenya was not signed this into government, that the entire now, you know, population that is working those sectors is affected. And also in terms of, in terms of incomes. And, therefore, that is why, on one side, it was a very, you know, sport, how do we out as Kenya signing a pass many to the ES integration, but if not signing out as it affects the population. And that is when the wisdom of the head of state, the summit felt, why can't we allow variable dimension. So that the countries that are ready, they can proceed in any case, they're not categorized as the same. Since Kenya is categorized as developing well as our LBCs, meaning that they're not losing anything, they can still access the market, you know, and everything that arms, but Kenya cannot access that. And that was basically the argument. But what we are doing as a secretariat is we are trying to come up with a framework that would possibly see and ensure that all the partnerships of the ESC indeed negotiate. All of us together and get on board on this, on this purpose, on this purpose, and these are the realities on whether it is going to affect the integration agenda and whether it is going to affect the bigger ACA agenda and whether the European products and services will be accessing, you know, market for in East Africa, using Kenya. I think that is a time to tell, but the reality of the matter is that we are all geared towards one increasing intra ESC trade trade among the partners is of the UC, trying to, of course, you know, strengthen the manufacturing capacity. And because of the value and vision and see how, you know, take advantage of the, of that in terms of the supply chains and value chains. So, it is a yes or no, not to the extent that I don't think it is going to affect integration because the ESC integration is so many parameters. And the commitment on the political goodwill is very key in this. And I think there is that commitment. And to a lay fierce by, by the person who has raised the question on whether the ESC integration is affected whether SCFT is affected. I don't think that should be the case. What we try to as partners, EU, East Africa, Africa, see how we can relook at the efforts and see how we can even strengthen it more by making it more flexible. So that it can respond to the current issues that we are facing. Of whether we should then allow you to freeze ever obligation and give free access to Africa boots directly. I think it was that I said the initial objective of ever was to see how to integrate the SCP countries into the world market. And whether by freezing, but whether he would be keen to do that. However, my, my thinking is that we need to have, you know, a middle ground where we need to really come on the ground on the table and see now the realities as they were and see how to possibly strengthen and even make sure that ever is a piece of quality. Because the issues of open skies and the issues of issues, those are things that are working progress. But I must appreciate that the world is moving very fast is dynamic, we need to respond to the challenges that the world is facing as leaders, we need to, we need to go beyond listening and action to respond towards the needs of the citizens are. So they want they want to move freely. They want to sell their goods freely in the world. They want to make sure that they get value and put money in their pockets. And that would be possible to make business environments easier. And of course, you know, all the bureaucracies that exist try as much as possible strengthen the private and public sector, you know, engagements so that we make the world easy and respond to the needs of the citizens. That's what I would want to say in response to the question that was raised. I'm not very sure whether honorable shows I picked or answered part of your query, possibly the next speaker will be able to do that. But if I, if you feel I should, yes, I'll be ready. Yeah, maybe we are giving now the floor to Dr Isaac. And then we have a little debate so close yours. Thank you. Thank you so much. And in case of time, I'll just respond to two things. Secretary General has done quite well on that. So the question asked me how we deal with the climate protection vis-à-vis our trade policy. And this is what I would think when we're developing trade policies, they should take into consideration the protection of the environment, the protection of things related to what causes climate change. And this should be enshrined, this should be embedded in our trade policies. It is like we have been doing gender mainstreaming in many policies. We need to think through how to make climate issues part of the trade policies that we develop so that influence and emissions do not destroy it so that economic growth does not sacrifice the environment. That's what I can say about that. And then the second one, there's a question on, you cannot industrialize unless you have these high tariffs to be able to protect. Indeed, at the ESC level, we have the common exonotary with the structure of finished products coming in at the same rate. We are still reviewing, we should have had one by maybe 2018. And then there are intermediate products. And then there are sensitive products, things we consider very sensitive in the region. Things would go for high tariffs to be able to protect. And I think this can be addressed using the common external tariff structure. Once it's thought very carefully, you look at the industry that you want to develop and you protect those, especially those that can help you build. The other way is also to attract what is being produced elsewhere and being sold within the region. We produce within the region, attract investors to move in to be able to produce. We are building in Uganda and I think the whole ESC, the iron and steel industry, and it is slowly by slowly building up. Now, this one needs to be protected, but at the same time, we need to get in investors to be able to invest within. So those are two ways to attract. A tariff when there's a lot of liberalization going in globally. Liberalization is the one. It's a one. You cannot put very high tariffs for everything. Just get some and it should not be permanent. When you put tariffs to protect an industry, this should not go on forever. There must be sunset closes there in. If it's not viable, then you leave it out. So I would think the common external tariff structure should be able to help us deal with this. Thank you, moderate chairman. Thank you. Maybe I can add one point from my point of view before I give the floor to Jane, maybe you can answer to that as well. So you have seen that in the we are currently negotiating due diligence legislation. And we are also discussing very hardly responsible business conduct, obliging corporations enterprises bigger and smaller ones to take into consideration in the whole supply change human rights employment issues environmental criteria. I have seen in the chat there is also the question for how to how to deal more with a with a perspective for young people who are jobless for how we can make women come into the business sector how they can have their own ability to take part in the development. So these aspects are of course connected always with legislative acts or with framing how the economic policies have to be carried out. So that is a huge debate we have here in the parliament. And I also want to add that a huge part or direction of my report will of course deal with the SDGs. So we have nine years left to reach 2030 the implementation of the SDG so the climate problem and the trade policies and the production policy and the production abilities of the economies also as they can continue. They are interlinked. So the problem is how we are realizing that we are taking responsibility there where we are in responsibility to frame the political and the economic how to say reality. Taking this into consideration so that the responsibility is of course also within the EAC within the western and western Africa and southern parts of Africa and in northern parts and in the European Union and of course also globally you have the competition from Chinese American and other countries and British which not any longer European Union and economic stakeholders who are playing all at the African continent. So the question is that is linked partly to the investment issue Jane maybe you can't But that would be also a question for the for the general secretary once more. Are you are you dealing in your in your positioning of the EAC towards the AFCTA and rethinking what does it mean for shaping that. Thank you. Jane the floor is yours. Thank you so much. Honorable. I just wanted to respond to the critical issues. One is the issue of Africa's integration into the global economy. And this is what usually we we are told that Africa should be integrated in the global economy and that was one of the objectives of the EAC. But the most important issue is the nature of the integration. Africa has been integrated and is integrated as a supply of raw materials and cheap labor, you know. I think in all our discussion we need to ensure that we change that nature of integration from commodity suppliers to value added suppliers. So we need to reassess and see our relationship with Africa with Europe. What needs to be changed to change so that almost and Isaac you are good at these figures. I don't know whether we're exporting almost 70% or 90% of our commodities to Europe as raw commodities. So how do we change that. You know, for me that's critical that the relationship between Africa and Europe has to change that nature of integration into into the global the global economy. We need to ensure that we export value added products so that we create jobs for the young people and to ensure that the rural communities get to value for money for their products. True. The issue of the EPS. I'm sorry, secretary general to come back on this issue. And the fact that you want other ES members to come on board. For me, I think this would be unfair for the other members of the East African community. Because by the time they rejected signing the PS, or when there is there was a stalemate, they were critical issues with the partner states raised regarding the PS, those issues up to today, haven't been agreed on, haven't been discussed, haven't been addressed by the EU. That Kenya signed and ratified the EPS, not because those issues were addressed, but because of the stick. As you said, they increased tariffs. And I remember when you if you look at our, there's a statement which is on our website I see at any. We calculated how much Kenya was going to lose just in flower exports alone and the jobs which were to be lost. So Kenya took that step. Kenya was caught up between a rock and a hard place, you know, because they needed the market access to the European Union. And this is why we are saying we are requesting that EU shouldn't put countries in such an attainable position. If EU is really committed to regional integration to helping Africa to do whatever all those very nice words, you walk that talk, let you walk that talk, let Kenya be the entire East African region be considered an LDC group. And that's why you see we are, we are looking at variable geometry and we said now we, this is variable geometry, but it isn't true. It's just that we are caught up in that tenable situation. Lastly, Chair, the issue of the issue of inclusive trade and investment policy, as we move to the post COVID recovery, as you know, all our economies have been battered, but our economies as poor countries have been battered even more. And within those economies, the poor, the poor, the low women, the youth in the rural areas, in the slum areas in the city, their situation is really, really untenable. So when we are reassessing that trade and investment policies, we need to put those people into consideration. And that's why it's really important to rethink all our trade policies or our investment policies, but also to rethink the CFTA. When you look at the CFTA, we started the CFTA before the COVID pandemic. And the whole issue was about liberalization. It's almost 90% outright liberalization. And we are living just the protection part, just 3%. You know, is this fair? Is this tenable? Can we be able to industrialize? I have looked at our list of liberalization in Uganda. And I doubt maybe, Isaac, that you are the economist, you need to look at it and see whether we can be able to industrialize, we can be able to create jobs and also be able to create regional value chains. So for me, I think we need to go back on the drawing board when it comes to the CFTA, when it comes to investment policies, and when it comes to our relationship between Africa and the European Union. Thank you. Sorry, Isaac, do you come in or Dr. Matuki first? I just wanted to comment on one thing. Just adding to what Jen said regarding industrialization and deterrence. So we lost you, I think. Oh, do you hear me now? Yes, now we hear you. Thank you. I was just saying, for us to be able to competitively participate in the global economy, one we need to industrialize. We are not going to run out from that. We're not going to be perpetual suppliers or participants in the global value chains at the lowest level. No, this has to change, and this will come through adoption of the right policies that have to do with, first of all, the tariff structures, of course, the investment it is seen. So like she did the comment, as we liberalize, we need to think carefully over liberalization is not going to help us because we shall be flooded with products that will touch the white part of what we are trying to do. So my very, very ardent comment on this is one. We need to industrialize. We can't run out from it. How do industrialize is by adoption of the right policies, including the common external tariff structures that will support and the rules of origin that will support industrialization. Like my colleagues have said, the economic partnership agreement, the APAS, were likely or were likely as perceived by some individuals, not even in the countries within the ESC, as likely to de-industrialize, likely not support industrialization. So as the European Union, I think you need to think very carefully about this so that perhaps we can move on and overcome the very mid-geometry debate that's going on. Honestly speaking, analysis I was involved in this thing, analysis were done and there was likely to be challenges when we implement them, the economic partnership structures and schedules as they were. So these are things to consider if really the European Union would want African continent to industrialize. Thank you, Chair. Thank you very much, Isaac. And immediately the floor to Dr. Matuki as time is running, we have only some minutes left. I don't have much to say, but I want to, as I can look to say, the European Union may want to consider a special funds for building capacities, especially in areas of trade and investment for African countries and particularly East Africa. So that these countries can come to a level where they could possibly be able to sit down and negotiate and do business with the EU. And that is reality. I think with that funds, build capacity of the private sector, investment on businesses within East Africa. Let's you carry ensure that even the policy framework that is put in place, it is pro business for East Africa, because once East Africa grows in terms of business, this is a good for you. That's what I want to say. But I think it's the high time we move from watching and listening to action. And that is what is expected of us. I thank you. Thank you very much. And I want to take the last minutes to send those looks book foundation with a certain course for our today's meeting and without them it wouldn't have been possible to meet and to discuss very important questions. I would also encourage all of you to send me your thoughts in writing by email, also those who have maybe not spoken but have a certain reflections and an idea from participants from African continent to send some reflections on that to me because then we can consider it by drafting the report about the future EU Africa trade and investment relations. I want to say the interpreters very much for, for making it possible that we have such a conversation together. And I guess, there is a lot of ideas, problems, proposals and concerns put on the table this evening. And we have a lot to do and we have to think about the problems you raised the incentives you made and I have felt that necessary to continue such a debate and discussion among us, because we have not solved yet the problems. But by putting the problems on the table by analyzing where we are, we are enabling us to act General Secretary, what you have your, your call your demand to us. And so let's stay in a closer contact on that issue. And so I hope with this webinar we have opened interesting sales, please be invited also to the next and webinar part two that is West Africa on the coming incoming Wednesday, February the second from six to 730 again Brussels time. And we have interesting guests there. And I think the East African with your experience of a really, really, interregional comprehensive cooperation could be a challenge to the West African countries. We are discussing all these regional parts under the umbrella of the incoming or in the negotiated but still further develop to be developed AFC FTA so and this brings me to the conclusion of this evening. Thank you all for being with us. I want to thank once more to the estimated panelists, and Dr. Peter Matuki, Dr. Isakshin Yakwa and Dr. Jay Nalunga for giving insights and stuff for the for the poor Europeans who have to to learn a lot of lessons from Africa. Thank you very much.