 So good morning. It's nice to see you. I appreciate the combination to allow me to come in with my friend Judge Edwards, his wife Stacy. The travel story I think I should let them tell you, but the thumbnail sketches they were supposed to fly into Burlington on Sunday wound up with the planes canceled into Burlington Sunday and Monday. We were exchanging email early Sunday morning. I got an email. I think it was from Stacy at 1230 in the morning, our time, and they had just heard that the flights were canceled. And we started immediately talking about rescues. The judge and I have been talking about him coming here for MLK Day. He's speaking at the law school to set up for a couple of years now. And I won't go on. But I want you to know our relationship goes back a few years. Jimmy when he was a judge started a this very unique school that I think you all have seen in the materials that I sent over called the Innovative Concept School. It's a it's the only school of its kind in the United States. Received this is the first time we met was about four or five years ago when the judge received an award in Washington at the U.S. Supreme Court that is delivered annually by the Chief Justice John Roberts called the William H. Rehnquist Award. And it's a it's a it's an award that's given to a celebrated state court judge. No federal judges are included. This is only for state court judges who have who have done outstanding things as judges. We have been talking as members, common members of the board of directors of National Center for a few years about him coming for an OK. So I am just absolutely thrilled. I am humbled by your tenacity. And so let me stop talking and introduce the judge to you. Thank you very much. Thank you, representative. It's Chief Justice Ryber. When he introduces me, I start to feel really, really small because I know that it's very difficult to live to people's perceptions about you. But I am just very honored. I'm just overwhelmed with gratitude to have the opportunity to visit and to especially have the opportunity to talk to the law students at Vermont Law School. So I'm very, very excited to do that. I sit on the bench for 25 years in the city of St. Louis with all of his issues and all of his problems. Problems that include in equities, race and gender, to fairness for children and all of the family issues that exist in any in any big state. I'm from St. Louis, born and raised in the city of St. Louis. Every single thing that I remember, every single thing that was ever given to me was from the generosity of strangers. I grew up in a public housing complex, so therein was public housing, food stamps, public education, single mom, four siblings who taught us that the most important thing that I could ever do was to get an education. The first time that I ever slept on a mattress I was six years old and a friend of my mom gave us a mattress to get us off and so it's from there that I believe that my sense of duty, doing for others, most important thing that anyone could ever do and so when I got an opportunity to sit on the bench and I was appointed by a friend of mine that I had met early on who was just very kind to me. A young man by the name of John Ashcroft who became a United States senator and then thereafter became United States Attorney General and John and I still have an opportunity to chat and I have an opportunity to talk. He put me on the bench knowing that I was the most liberal person he had ever met in his life but he put me on the bench not understanding all of that and we talk and we don't necessarily agree all the time about all of the legal issues but we're friends and that's what matters to me and so after 25 years following the Mike Brown case in 2014 in the city of St. Louis that made our state iconic for all of the wrong reasons and after the Ferguson violence and after the Jason Stockley case where a white police officer shot and killed an unarmed black man in the city of St. Louis and where protests was happening in our city every single day you see Ferguson is about two minutes from St. Louis city and so we're sitting in a county where all of these areas are continuous to each other and so after all of those things and daily protests and destruction of private property and an arrest and distrust of police officers dysfunctionality at its highest because our officers had stopped policing because they no longer want to be vilified we had the national media all over the place in our small city it exposed us but it made us better it was I believe the genesis of the Black Lives Matter movement movements all over this country some would argue that all lives matter but it gave us an opportunity I believe to be on the cutting edge of changing the world certainly changing the US because remember it was in 1857 that Dr. Scott was in the city of St. Louis it was in in in 1947 that that Shelley v. Kramer it restrict with restrictive covenants came out of the city of St. Louis I believe in 2014 and 2015 and 2016 and 1718 and 19 it will be where St. Louis will again become a leader on doing the right thing so when the man asked me if I would consider being the public safety director for the city of St. Louis it was from that backdrop that I had to consider all of that it was it was obfuscation it was that 25 years on the bench I'm the most senior judge I'm probably the most popular judge in the state of Missouri I should I take this responsibility on in the city well I started to think about what I was taught when I was a child just generosity of others what can I do to make somebody else's life better and that was more important to me than my own self-worth my value see my wife understood that early on she knew that we would never ever be wealthy because everything that I ever got I gave it away she she understood that and she understood that when and then I was a young lawyer at AT&T on a fast track and when they asked me to take over the South African telephone company and I made a decision that I wanted to stay in St. Louis you know she didn't like that very much but she understood that it was more important to me to be at home and to save the lives of the people that I could touch than to be too concerned about my own and so I took the job as public safety director in the city of St. Louis because I needed to stop that protesting I needed to stop the property damage I needed to to to stand in the middle of police distress in the community I need to fix our city and so I took the job and I met with protesters and I met with police and I hired a police chief I talked to my fire department I talked to my building department I have nine departments and I'm responsible for the jails the police the fire building excise oversight paramedics EMS at 4,000 employees I have about a billion dollar budget and I have the responsibility to equalize life chances for everybody in our city irrespective of who they are or where they come from and so I believe that is my job as that one person standing in the gap to change the culture to engage our community and always try to do the right thing and I can tell you that we're moving a needle in a very positive way so I'm very happy about that but my first love is always education certainly it is the key to all of life's rewards it's a key to a stable paycheck we all want that but with education comes the opportunity I believe to change a person's life and to help our community and so it gives me a great honor to know what you're doing and all the work that is happening here in Vermont I know what's going on in Vermont I knew I was coming to Vermont so like any decent and responsible lawyer I researched everybody here I knew what I was walking into I understand what happened last year with the African-American legislature I know all of those things yet I believe that we have to be present that you have to be at the table if you're going to change the minds and the hearts of people you see we're in all all of us we're in this together we all are in this together and so I come here to deliver the morning and I come here because I was invited by a friend my Justice Riper I come here because we've developed a wonderful relationship a respectful relationship I come here because in my heart I believe that he thinks that what I have to say matters and so when we look at all of the things that I've tried to do I've tried to be an example it's easy to have a conversation but I've tried to be an example and I had a chance to do that and this and to share our message not only with you but with Chief Justice of the Supreme Court you would think that Justice Roberts being appointed by Republican being very very conservative and and having this legal ideologies that he would be so forth to the right that that he didn't get the human side of it but when I received the Rehnquist Award which is the highest judicial award in our country it was Justice Roberts who said you know what I kind of like this guy from the Midwest I kind of like what he's trying to do and so I'm in a very small footprint and I know that maybe we'll change the world from that small footprint just like Dred Scott just like Shelley V. Kramer just like Plessy versus Ferguson Plessy versus Ferguson just like all of those wonderful cases and you guys are here making laws in Vermont you know Justice Roberts showed me the wonderful mirror on the wall when I walked through here and the battle and I looked at it and immediately it just just takes us all the way back those of you probably want my mirror every day and never look at it but I looked at that mirror just for a split second and I saw it to wonder about all the bloodshed on that day in that battle for you to be here for me to be here it's just an amazing thing when you're in internalized that time it has great value it has a wonderful historical vibe just look how far we've come women in the state house three women on the African-American having a conversation at this table with you and just reflect by for some of us this is a long reflection back just reflect back could this have happened 50 years ago or 75 years or a hundred years ago we're making progress we're making wonderful wonderful progress and we have to stay the course it was Dr. King that said that in order for us to achieve we have to do it together and we'll perish together as fools and that's really what it's all about so thank you for looking at my Ted talk I appreciate it hopefully you had an opportunity any of you to look at for our team which is a little different you don't have the the big population of African-Americans you know that are suffering in school fighting every day to be relevant fighting every day to accomplish something and so it makes me smile when I think about those children because I think about my own siblings my own situation I think about the fact that I was there I think about the fact that I know that there's no measurable difference between them right now today and me when I was a child and I think about that housing complex that implicit poor I go housing complex that was even segregated that we had to implode because we were stacking people on top of each other the fact that my mother struggled there in an apartment find people no bigger than this room that we struggled there and so when I had a chance to to establish my school I established it right across Central Street from that building now because it reminds me every day of my obligation it reminds me every day of my duty to give back so my whole life is about what can I do to help that's the question it's never ever about the degrees that we have on our walls not about it's not about how much money we have in our bank accounts because the only person that cares about that is your kid it's not about that it's never about what's written on our tombstone it's not about that it's about what did you do to help somebody else and did you instill in them the right energy did you instill in them that desire for them to help somebody else I think those of us that are intellectual we just call it cascading mentoring so I am honored I'm so honored to have this opportunity to come here to talk to you to share with you a little bit of about me and so if there are any any thoughts I I was one of those judges that always gave the lawyers the last word and always listen very attentively and carefully because I was one of those judges that was not afraid to change my ruling because you know your minds are much better than mine I see these young legislators here and I'm just I'm just amazed just I'm just real pleased and very very proud that you guys can be my children I'm proud of that proud that you're here and proud that you're carrying on and I'm proud that you allow me to come in here and visit so be happy to answer any questions it's hard for me to express my gratitude and just how you really have showed us the importance of our common our common humanity and those are words from us from our Supreme Court case that I'm sure your board read in our Constitution but really it is so important to celebrate our common humanity and that really they are all our children as I was watching the the trailer and sing to you they really are all our children and and so I thank you for reminding us to leave from our heart and how important that is I so appreciative to the to the Chief Justice and I have a 14 year old son in ninth grade and they're currently studying in global studies revolutions and leaders and suggest that they watch watch them learn about your school and and those ties right yeah I mean I just love that the empowerment of how those students those young men felt listened to and respected and how and how you have the vision to just take all of that and give these kids a chance and that's great thank you thank you for the invitation so I'll just open it up to you I won't try to echo what our chairwoman has said but I share those views and I really enjoyed watching all the trailers and links too and the one thing that really struck me is how many spheres you've been active in with the school and with the role in municipal governance and then the role in the judiciary and someone who's not a lawyer who's sitting on my second term here I wonder you know it's a big question but those three different spheres how do you see them as working together at the end of the day when you reflect back on what you did in each one what do you come away with I believe that the common denominator in what we all do should be love that's that that's the common denominator and so where I come from unfortunately we have to teach people to love I don't believe that we are innately born that we we know how to respect one another or that we know how to love and one of the the programs that I have at my school is a stray dog training program you might ask yourself why a stray dog training program what is so significant about that well I know that from where I come from you know nobody really taught me how to be a dad or taught me how to love another African American man in an appropriate setting and so I knew that a lot of my kids they didn't know what love felt like from their parent from their community from their family so I had to teach them how to love and what better way to teach an individual how to love than to find something that they can identify a stray dog a stray dog left on the street to fend for itself a stray dog been kicked out nobody cares about a stray dog and you put that stray dog in that environment and you bring that child who's been kicked out who's been harmed or hurt and you put them together and before you know it the kid is loving on that dog and that dog is returning unconditional love to that child not cursing the child to get up in the morning to get out of the house not yelling or screaming at the child and the child in return is stroking the dog and holding the dog close and before you know it the child has learned how to love another living thing and be receptive to another living thing loving him loving her and so when we look at all of the things everything that I've ever done has been to say listen we have to find a way to love each other we have to find a way to live together our life irrespective of how young you are and you never think about death irrespective of you think that you're gonna live forever none of us will and so in this very short period of time what did we do what did we do to make the world better see you can't be angry every day you can't go to work angry every day some days you have to smile and some days you have to take risks and some days you have to reach across the aisle and say you know what it makes sense some days it doesn't matter whether you are a Republican or whether you are Democrat whether you are lesbian whether you are gay male whether you black or whether you like some day it won't matter if you land in that emergency room and somebody that you love the most is dying you can care less if the surgeon is black only thing you care about is if he's confident you don't care whether the surgeon is a lesbian or whether gay or even whether the surgeon is a Muslim only thing that you care about is somebody saving this person that I love the most saving their life and so if we can get past all of the those things that only constructs anyway if we can get past all of that can you imagine what a great life we would have can you imagine coming to their Vermont house and having a party every day and not having to like you or not having to dig in can you just imagine coming here and everybody able to listen respectfully able to talk things out and able to arrive at solutions that make sense for the betterment of our state can you just imagine what a great day or what great days we would and so in my mind it's really about love it's not about all the other things that don't matter it's what's in our heart that matters most to me but I'm not telling you anything that you don't know I don't have a specific question but I just want to thank you for coming here a lot of what you're saying resonates with me and I wish there was a way you could deliver this conversation to every single committee in this building and to the entire legislative body so I just want to say thank you very much thank you representative you don't look at you and look like you know my oldest is 42 you're not 42 and I look at you guys I'm like you know what you can be my kid and I appreciate you have no idea I appreciate I don't know what your political affiliation is but at the end of the day you hurt me and maybe you'll go back home and you reflect on something that I said just maybe there's a time for many many reasons one of the things that we're doing on Thursday is we're having a hearing on fair and impartial policing which is a topic of conversation here in Vermont for many of the leaders in the room and for others and and we don't have a there's not a piece of legislation there's no you know any but more really just a conversation to have and I've tried to include the help of many of the committee members and also taking leadership but really having voices come to the table and listen and then hopefully together public safety law enforcement advocates we can really move the conversation forward and work together because right now it's being played out in the press and you know all things like that and so all over the country yeah we have to we have to we have to acknowledge that we do have some issues in policing I acknowledge it every day we're trying to engage some culture changes for my police officers were indicted just last month I spent a lot of time with Attorney General Sessions of the civil rights type case just making sure that that we don't have power and practice issues that we're just looking at these officers and asking them to change the culture I mean we have culture issues all over this country and so I want you to de-escalate as opposed to escalate I want you to get home every day I want you in life to be important and valued so you have to get home every time but I make it very clear to my officers if you go out there I know you're brave and I know you're tough we expect for you to protect and serve but at the same time I want you to go home so if you go out there and you kill somebody and it's justifiable you don't have to worry about where I'll be I'm gonna send you home and I'll stand in front of the media and I'll answer the questions but if you kill somebody and it wasn't justifiable you don't have to worry about where I'll be I'll be sitting with the FBI because we're going to indict you but I can say that today because for 25 years I worked with them I didn't have to establish a reputation or credibility with the officers and so when I walk in the room and I say we have to have equitable policing irrespective of the community and who's in a particular community equitable policing is the most important thing that you can do so if you're engaging in implicit bias then fix it because we all have it so fix it but if you are racist then you need to let me know so I can write you a recommendation for another job we can't have equitable policing understanding that we have to treat people fairly understanding that your community is a little different but when a police officer encounters an African-American kid boy with dreadlocks and pants down it doesn't give you license to kill no African-American mom should ever have to ask me the question judge what my boy encounters the police will he always go to jail or will he die those are questions that I want to hear anymore I can't have that in our community and so when I say we're moving the needle a little bit we are in 2017 there were 28 police involved shootings in the city of st. Louis with 14 dead last year I had six police involved shootings last year with one day one is too many a hell of a lot better than 18 or 19 or 20 or 24 so we're working we understand and so I don't envy the position that you're in I know it's tough I know it's tough in every community is different and I pray that God gives you the to will to do the right thing always and the confidence that what you do will make a difference that's my prayer for you I just have one question sir when it comes to changing the culture came on the base level for any police department whether it's in the break room or wherever it is how do you what recommendations do you have what advice do you have on how to slowly shift that culture towards equitable policing as you described well I think it starts from the top and then it starts in the academy so when we are teaching when our academy teachers oftentimes around the country their police officers themselves and so when a police officer teaches another police they're teaching what they know and oftentimes what they know is the culture that was instilled and ingrained in it it doesn't matter whether they're black white in the end it doesn't matter what they're teaching isn't what they know and so one of the ways that rich wanting to change the culture in the city of St. Louis is to go to the law school and get the professors from the law school to teach constitutional law to teach first amendment to teach equal protection to teach new process so that they're getting a different approach to those types of things that are so important in policing we still need the the expert shooters we still need them to be able to to protect themselves on the street we still need all of that but to change the mindset and to change the culture is to change the education and so we do that by enlistening the support of the law schools and we do that by looking outside of police training the police in those critical areas of first amendment and fairies and new process we bring in we bring in mental health professionals because our officers are strong and they're brave and no one wants to admit you know I was at a scene today and I was tough but when I went home I bought up in the field position and I cried see that officer can't have that conversation with with his or her peers because it makes them look weak why do I want to ride in a car with an officer that cries but they go home and they cry and then they beat the crap out of their their partner and they yell at their kids and they do all of those things we have problems with domestic violence in our police departments all over this country we have problem with mental health with police departments all over this country but that facade they have to they have to be strong and so we have to look at the mental health issues doesn't mean that they should be terminated it means that it should be fixed we have to look at the implicit doesn't mean that they should be terminated it means that it has to be fixed we have to look at all of those issues and we have to look at them fairly and we have to look at them without being derogatory or demeaning at helping and so if you can you can change the culture simply by changing the teacher you can change the culture by by admitting that you know what we're gonna address this mental health issue and we're gonna do it and you're not gonna lose your job and we can change the culture simply by doing those those health things because right now as a police officer we expect you to be tough we expect you to do all of those things you know what I tell our officers I said you know I'm I know you guys get a lot of accommodations you get them and we have these big ceremonies and everybody's proud you know we have we have police officers you know they can blindfold and they can shoot with both hands and get 300 a perfect score and we give them give them an accommodation and you wrote the most traffic tickets we give you an accommodation you made a great arrest and we give you an accommodation I'm like why that's your job you're supposed to do that if you want to impress me tell me the names of the people that live on the block that you're patrolling in then I know you've engaged in community policing you know the people on the block and if you really want to impress me and get an accommodation tell me the names of their pets because now I know that you've had some conversation you've engaged your community that's how we change the culture we have these expectations of our officers that are wrong with expectations of our police officers that we shouldn't have we have to take some of that pressure off them we have to ask them to be equitable you have to eradicate all that social media that they do have a social media policy if my officers say anything on a personal social media site they're terminated because at four o'clock in the morning you don't think anybody's reading that stuff and you say whatever you want to say and then in the sunshine you said something that was inappropriate something that was racist sex is something that you should not have said I don't know you can't have a negative attitude about African Americans and you say it on your social media and then I expect you to go down there and patrolling in African American community it opens us up for lawsuits and it tells me that you got some other issues so you can't use racial epithets at the kitchen table at home when the public is not looking and expect that I will respect you in your better moments when the public is looking you just have to be consistent whether we're at home or whether we're in the sunshine of the public we have to be consistent not because it's the right thing to do not even because you think it's the wrong thing to do but you have to do it so your kids are respecting you at the end of the day so your kids are respecting you you can't say stuff in the car in front of your kids and use the racial epithet and then turn around and go outside and get out of the car and you the nicest person in the world your kids are totally confused mom dad you just said this that's on us that's all of us that's our police officers once you lay the prescription and once you give the expectations it's easy it's easy they'll adjust and they'll change this police department and they'll change the communities and the next thing you know the public will be telling you how much they love their police department because that's what we really want they'll tell you how much they care about the police how much they respect the police department we can get there it's not as daunting as you might think it is you will get there just by doing other stuff it's really not all about the police it's about the other stuff and so if you're focusing only on the police and changing the police you're not going to get there you got to do the other stuff the mental health stuff the bias stuff you got to do all of that stuff and then before you know it the officers will start to tell you how much they appreciate you you start to hear the stories about how they cried how they couldn't handle a situation they'll start to tell you stories about how they're better people and how they are now deescalating and how without putting themselves at rest they have the ability to disarm someone just by being kind just by being kind go back to this love thing I think thank you I represent city in Vermont with a growing but very small african-american community two years ago we hired our for two years ago we elected our first african-american woman to our city council last year we hired an african-american gentleman to be the superintendent of our schools but they're really the only two minority public figures in my community and so what I would ask you in regards to advices a community that has you know a small number of african-american mainly children teens 20-somethings and we want to include them in our community we want them to feel empowered our community we want them to feel you know a legitimate part of our community but we want them to be comfortable in their own skin but when they look at city leaders when they look at their teachers when they look at our police force you know they don't see people who look like them so my question will be what can we do people like myself who don't know what it's like to spend a day in their skin what can we do to include this small group in the entire fabric of our community and thank you I think that's a terrific question it's just a matter of just being welcoming and I mean you have a very very small percentage of folks just being welcoming and just really understanding or trying to understand that there will be different struggles and so you know an example of that is just being culturally confident which we wish may require you to do a little bit more work in terms of some African-American history you know you can't you you should at least be cognizant of some of the things that are that are going on you in a unique position because now you have to you have to learn a bit about their struggles and a good example of that I was the first year law student out of the public schools setting and it never been in this this big white environment before in my life and I thought that I was a smart kid and the whole nine years and the the fact situation you know the fact situation in law school was about golfing golfing I had no idea about golfing and so the the torch situation was you know the golf ball kept kept kept going over the fist and and and dinging somebody upside the head you know what was the what was the cost avoidance of all that you know I'm like okay golfing ball hitting somebody upside the hair what do I do I'm like build a fist hire right you know because I'm thinking it's like baseball first base is always down this line third base is always to the left the pitch is always in front of me and the professor says why don't you just move the whole okay that makes sense but I didn't know you can move the whole in golf being culturally competent and so not asking kids to engage in something that is a cultural event you can expect them to know that the square root of 2 is 1.414 in the square root of 3 is 1.73267 you can expect that because that's we expect that in math but you can expect me to know that the golf hole could be moved in such a way that it would not require me to hit the ball in that direction and so cultural competency puts the onus on you as a leader to know a little something and so when you're in the first grade classroom or you in the fourth grade classroom or you in the seventh grade classroom always find something that the kids can identify with or point or a fact that the kids can identify with because the kids will go home and they'll say you know what there was a representative at my school today and he was talking about Harriet Tubman or he was talking about this or he was talking about fact and you have a voter and a supporter for the rest of your life because you did it with them and they went home and they talked to mom and dad about what you said at their schools doing it from the bottom up not a lot of good things happen from the top down from the bottom up if I want to sell a car now I go and I talk to your kids about you know what your mom and dad really should buy this big old SUV and the next thing you know the kids are telling mom and dad you really should buy a big old SUV and they'll get angry and they'll keep telling mom and daddy buy this car before you know mom and dad they bought that big old SUV so I think that's how you do this you know if you become culturally confident enough just to be able to talk to the kids I don't think that you have to do anything that is over the top and be sincere about it I think you're fine that that community will become so attached to you that it's amazing because sometimes you won't find African-American police officers I'm having that problem in the city of San Luis being able to retain African-American police officers maybe you don't need an African-American police officer in this region but what they do need is for you to represent all of them and be culturally confident they have you maybe that's all they need well thank you and Chief Justice, thank you so much for this incredible opportunity we're in the very beginning of our session and so we have a number of new members we have five new members to this committee and some folks this wasn't their first choice and others of us said you're gonna love judiciary it's an amazing committee and I think this is an excellent example of how the opportunities that that we have new Chief Justice and really really brings out how fortunate we are to be here thank you thank you madam chair thank you thank you so much you know and I can just really just really feel the commitment your commitment to this so thank you so very much