 Hello, everyone. Thank you for joining. We will wait a bit before we will start for other people to to access the meeting or decision. Yeah, there's a couple more people coming on. Good. How nice. Welcome everybody. Hey, Michael Polarski. Super terrific job. Welcome. I love that. That thing you did with the interview you did with Walter. Fantastic. And your, your zoom video from that courses will go up shortly. So and you did a good job too, John, of course. Congratulations. Oh, well, cheers. Tumeric tea. This is oat straw. I'll have the plate of mashed yeast. I remember that from Woody Allen. hilarious. Although Woody Allen is no longer acceptable apparently attacked now when you bring him up. Still people are joining the session. So we will wait for a couple of seconds, I guess, before we start, because we do have a packed program for today. Absolutely. So perhaps Woody Allen is a bit like a lot of the world leaders today there bubble has been popped people have seen behind the screen. I would like to start the session. Probably some more people will join. Let's start. Is everyone able to see my screen. I can. Okay, that's perfect. Hello everyone and welcome again to this last fireside chat session of 2021 I can't believe how fast the time is going. And this session, my name is by the way, I am a camp coordinator slash fundraiser for the ecosystem restoration camps. And this session today will be again with John D. Liu, the founder of the ecosystem restoration camps, and I'll peer the camp manager of functional forests. Before we start, I would like to highlight some house rooms. I would like to ask you to please hold your question until after Alps presentation, because we would like to make this session interactive. So if you do have a question you can go to the reactions button which is below in zoom. And you can click on raising your hands and we see that you have a question and you can ask the question in person to Alp. And just for you to know this session will last for about one hour. And the room will be open for an open discussion afterwards so you are able to leave but you are also more than welcome to join and stay on. So first I will quickly share some camp news and camp opportunities with you before we continue with john. So the camp opportunities. I first want to highlight that if you are interested in any of these opportunities I recommend you to go to our website that is ecosystem restoration camps.org. And you can go to our events and courses page, and you can find all the extra information there. But first, Camp Alto Plano, they usually offer courses and experiences but now are open for any volunteering help, and you can help with day to day tasks, and this opportunity is available until the 28th of February. And then we have the opportunity at Camp Embercoon in Devon, the UK, and they offer a winter rewilding experience and you will learn more about rewilding the land but also rewilding yourself and this opportunity is from the 27th until the 30th of January. And Camp Human Nature in Uganda also offer a volunteering experiences, so there is not a set program, but you can help with day to day tasks on this site and it's available from the 18th until the 27th and you can apply and contact camp manager Ronald who would be happy to have a conversation with you. And then Camp Habiba in Egypt is available for on-camp experiences. Very excited and I hope that if you are able to travel or if you're close by that you would think about these opportunities. On camp news, currently we are onboarding quite some new camps but already Camp Tanganyika in Tanzania joined us and this is a 15 acre conservation site that is helping local farmers with more sustainable farming methods and conservation techniques. So we are very pleased that they joined us and then Camp Humboldt Habitat in Sweden, which is a 15 hectare site that is depleted by mining and clear cutting and they are restoring this land. The camp manager David is a permaculture specialist so he will be hosting courses and experience from the spring onwards. He has some planting news. Camp Mombasa mangroves in Kenya was able to plant another 30,800 mangrove seedlings with the support from impact adventurers and we are so pleased to hear that this forest is growing and growing by the help of Mubarak and his team. And then Camp Altoplano has successfully crowdfunded trees and shrubs that is needed for the agro-firsty system and they used our plan for the planet platform. We partnered up with this platform and we are happy to hear that we have a first small success with them so hope to have more in the future. And another good news is that Camp Creampup in South Africa has been made a supporting and implementing partner of the UN decade of ecosystem restoration. So that's it, all great news. Well John, I would like to give the word to you and I know that you enjoy talking in person, so there you go. OK, well it's lovely to see everybody and although it's still a trying time, lots is happening. So actually as much as I like to speak live and I will continue to speak live, I am going to share something with you now. And I've been covert by making sure that it's going to be used. Thanks for listening and welcome. I just wanted to say a few things about what I've been thinking about. So what I've been thinking about a lot is central kitchens. I've noticed how many people are in need of food. And I think that one of the things that we can do in ecosystem restoration camps for instance, but not only, is to build central kitchens. And central kitchens can feed the campers, feed the growing community surrounding this, but it can also react to special situations like disasters or bumper crops even. So if you have central kitchens, it's possible to use them to process all surplus foods. So nothing needs to go to waste. And it's also possible. I've been noticing that a lot of people have been sick around here in the Netherlands and I've been making soup and sending out the soup. And it seems to make them feel better. I think they need to eat. Sometimes probably not too much, but some. And I think it's really good, you know, if you if you infuse the soup with the intention that everybody who eats it gets well, then that's really a good soup. And soup is fun to make, you know, because you can make it out of a whole lot of different things. And it's possible just to keep soup all the time in case, you know, and when you see people and say, Have you eaten? If they say no, you say you should try this soup. And, you know, everybody who eats the soup gets healed. Anyway, central kitchens also allow for some other changes in consumption patterns. For instance, we can ensure that there's no packaging on the food just by buying in bulk from the producers. And by buying directly from the producers, we can say, Well, we only want organic or bio dynamic, we don't want to go searching for that stuff. We want that to arrive and will subsidize you will will will consistently pay you like with community supported agriculture. And that that's the relationship with all the food producers and that core of people if it gets into 150 or 200 of course it's it's actually very useful for those producers to get an income. But it also means that these people who are in the community can also work in community based agriculture and in rewilding and restoration of degraded landscapes. And they all need to be fed. And then the other thing that I've been thinking about besides central kitchens and how great an idea that is is creator spaces. So perfect shops for woodworking, metalworking and mechanics and industrial sewing, ceramics, craft, stonework, building, design, art and have just a perfect shop at every camp with all the tools, which are necessary to do everything and that they belong in trust to the community. I would recommend that retired master craftsmen curate these collections of tools and machines. And that they are supported by a number of younger engineers and and mechanics and craftsmen. And that together they have a collective well understanding of all the equipment and machines and measuring devices and cutting devices and finishing devices whatever is needed. And that everything is there and it's available to everyone in the community. In fact, it belongs to the community because it's part of a community trust. And that community is also engaged in the central kitchen and probably could be engaged in ecosystem restoration camps activities. It could be an emerging eco village. But regardless, it seems like the task now is to restore all degraded lands on the earth. It seems like only through this method can we address all of the problems that we have because we have these quite serious climate related problems, but they stem from centuries and millennia long inequitous cultures that have sought to dominate and have literally committed mass genocide and slavery. And humanity has repeatedly stood up and said, okay, we don't like that that that's not okay. And all of the great literature is saying war is hell. And the collective heartbreak that's there in the world is tragic. And I think what's exciting and interesting about taking on quiet attitude and taking on profound meditation of physicality to some extent, but also metaphysical things, philosophical things. And studying using scientific method, I would say. So we should look very careful at data and we should understand what that we can glean information from this data. And this information can become knowledge and this knowledge ideally becomes wisdom. And that in fact, as a species, there is a collective intelligence, a collective consciousness. So we're each of us contributing our individual consciousness to the collective consciousness. And what we find is that the more we are living our lives in service, we get more and more satisfaction and joy from living. And our lives are given meaning this way. And it stops being pointless about being on a hamster wheel that's driven by an evil Kabul that's running an economic system. And political domination of people all over the world with military weapons and the threat of violence. And when it seems like when you meditate into this space, there's an element of childlike innocence there with which you can look at the world with awe and wonder. And I think this is of critical importance because if we are judging things based on our knowledge, it's most definitely a limited understanding. Because when we start to study, we pretty quickly come up against some quite interesting concepts like infinity or time. And space and physicality and energy and flow states and waves. And all of these things are of great interest and they could be pursued at infinitum. And so you would never finish because they're infinite. But if you can see these various concepts in relationship with other concepts, then you begin to see a multi-dimensional and symbiotic state in which all living things are interconnected and the breath of the vegetation and the breath of the animals are traded. And the microbes and the fungi and the insects and the birds and the animals, as well as the grasses and the trees and the flowers and the berries and the fruits and the giant trees. And the coral reefs and seagrasses and mangroves and savannas and wetlands and peat marshes and alpine systems and the beautiful rivers around the world. So what I've noticed in studying this is one, it gives me some satisfaction to look at the way nature is evolving and what it evolves into and its incredible beauty and resilience. And then, you know, in comparison to human endeavors, human endeavors seem much smaller, much less important. So that means we're less important. And that's a kind of interesting thing. So I don't know if I've told you this before, but I have this thing with my wife where she tells me that my Igor is too big and she means my ego. But actually I feel often very insecure. And that's, I call that Eor from the donkey in Winnie the Pooh. And I think that those, the Igor and Eor thing is about polar opposites or polar differences. And so if you're on one pole and on the Igor scale or you're on the other end of the scale on the Eor scale, you're either way too confident and, you know, stick. We've observed that kind of behavior recently. It's domination and prejudice and fascistic and grotesque and silly and dangerous all at the same time. So on the Eor side, if you just really feel like nobody's listening and there's nothing that can be done. Well, that's terrible. And I don't believe that. So in the middle, though, is a balance where you're not overconfident or arrogant, but you're also not too afraid to do what needs to be done. So I think that's the kind of thing that I'm thinking about for ecosystem restoration camps. Besides the fact that they're doing regenerative agriculture, they're rewilding their restoring degraded landscapes, and they're doing it in communities with beautiful central kitchens and great food, and they're doing it with wonderful tools and shops that are all supported by the community. And so welcome to this. I've talked a little longer than I usually do, but thanks a lot for coming. And now I think we're going to hear from Alp, who's in Turkey, and it's challenging to be there and he's doing really, really good work. And he could use some help and I'm sure all of us can. So welcome again. Thank you, John, for sharing these words. I think we can all relate to what you were saying on another level. So thank you. And I really love the sentence, knowledge becomes wisdom. So we probably have some time to reflect or discuss your conversation after Alp's presentation and after the Q&A. So yes, I would like to go to the host of tonight and I quickly will share my screen again with you. Before I do that, I will take the box to optimize the video because I would like to introduce you to Alp. I have a little video for you to share his land. Is everyone able to see it? Good morning, everyone. This is our functional forest in the implementation site. And we began working here approximately a couple of years ago as a barren land with lots of rocks and no organic material in the soil whatsoever. And we've been planting rigorously, over 6,000 trees in the meantime. And we're planning on planting another 20,000 to 30,000. In and amongst the rows we're planting seasonal grains and we have a lot of varieties on the property. I just want to give you a general feeling of how we're situated here so you can get a sense. And you can see that our grains are now gently showing themselves and it just provides a beautiful, beautiful sight. We do look very much forward to welcoming you here anytime that will be possible for you. Much love and greetings from Turkey. Bye. Thank you Alp. Alp, are you ready to take over and bring us along your journey of restoring your lands? Thank you, Inge. Yes, thank you. And thanks to John and to the ecosystem restoration camps movement to give me this opportunity to share what we are up to and how we see the world from where we are. Hopefully I'll give an impression that will be useful for everyone who's participating here tonight. I've been asked to have some visuals and a presentation and I think just as a context, no need to deepen the bad news on one side on the one hand. But on the other, I think to create a context. And please bear with me with the beginning of the presentation where I kind of give a little background and then hopefully move quickly enough to give you enough visuals to see what we've been able to do. And I'll be very excited to hear about your questions and hopefully be able to respond to them. Let me try to share the screen here. Is that working for everyone? Yes, we can see it's up. Let me try to make this small so this is just out of the way. It's a terrible cycle. Yeah, this is, I chose to put this on there. Because this is what our most precious part of the hills and the mountain sides and turned into this past summer. Over the course of three weeks, we have had devastating wildfires. And most of the devastating was the social impact that we have encountered where when we were trying to work with our villages and try to extinguish fires, we were not being helped by the local government and things have moved very slowly. And I hate to talk about this. And as I said, I kind of pre warned you. And the latest is that we're hearing increasingly that in the areas that have been burned licenses are being given out for mining companies. And villagers burned down olive groves and, you know, properties are being confiscated by the government for either wind energy projects or solar energy projects. So that's why I just wanted to put a context. I mean, I will give you a little more context than this, but this is why I put this picture in the beginning. I think the most meaningful way to succeed is to eat and here I don't only mean others in form of human beings but also in form of all living and non living beings. We have a mission that we defined as nourishing life. That's what we want to live for. That we that's what we live for. And we vision a world where humanity associates the main source of its basic needs, both physical, such as food, fodder, medicine, fuel, building materials, fibers, dyes and glues. Mental and spiritual in form of meaning and joy, relationship, participation, personal growth and contribution with functional forests. We envision a world where humanity associates these basic needs with functional forests, which is not a concept. It is a method in development that is based on over 20 years of experimental work that aims to respond to ecological, economic and social vulnerabilities in the Mediterranean region. Why functional forests? I think our focus needs to be pronounced as agricultural productivity that is an essential part of human civilization and cultures, which includes cultural values and land tenure and traditional cropping patterns and weather and climate. It relies on a variety of factors. It relies on having the right quality and amounts of plants and animals and tools and fertilizers. I won't go into the end of each sentence. We need to have adequate and accessible markets and transportation and storage and processing facilities and price incentives for things to work. I think John's central kitchen's idea is a phenomenal one. If we can work out the WQ in terms of working out the linkages, the end-to-end linkages to what we produce on the countryside into the cities and periphery subsidies. Not to mention places like Cages and Mula, where we live, where we have been hardly hit by these wildfires and it has affected human lives tremendously also on the countryside. So agricultural improvement, if we may call it in other terms, is vitally affected by human motivation and self-confidence and hard work and decision-making ability and willingness of people to work together, which is as we observe on the one hand is becoming more and more difficult given the socioeconomic status that one has or more easy as we are in some form and shape are experiencing here. World hunger, no need to say, is getting worse. Food prices are soaring poor, getting poor, hungry, getting hungrier. Land, water, energy and fertilizer prices are increasing more than ever and is in tight supply even if you have access. You may have to wait for a period of time that just causes you to miss your right timing of planting or pre- or post-planting fertilization. Modern productivity techniques along with growing demand for food are undermining ecology, which is well represented in the effects of climate change. And increases in food production will require the solution of more ecological, technical, sociological, economic and political problems. So there is an array of aspects that need consideration, that need an attitude and mindset that we ought to be able to respond to all these complex challenges at hand. And I again won't go through this list, but there is a list that I tried to lay out where you see on the left side the conventional farming and forestry mindset versus the functional forests mindset where we put at the heart of all systemic thinking and human-based needs and necessities. How do functional forests help diminish or eliminate factors that affect agriculture productivity? We do multi-layered, multi-functional and locally adapted plant variety plantings that assure economic, ecological and social resilience. When I say economic, I mean being able to harvest already over a course of two, three months period by means of using both annual and biannual and perennial plants. Plant-based wind, sun and sun breaks functions in form of providing the necessity for the particular area that we're working on to produce microclimates and to have a better possibility for plants to adapt. Should they be adapted from non-local circumstances? We integrate biodeversed biomass production to ensure resilience against drought by increasing soil organic matter on an annual basis, hence eliminating external input of fertilizers over time. And diminish price and marketing vulnerabilities by establishing long-term individual and community partnerships, increased biodiversity by means of using up to 80% local perennial varieties propagated locally. I will be able to show some of our work with regard to this. And we're in the process of training local farmers to train for some qualified laborers. And my friend and partner Ghekan and Ahu today shared their experience with me, whereby an elder in the village has said that I think it is time for us to start using OBS method. Which is a reason for me to start crying because I've been working for this for 10 years and it did not really go anywhere for lack of a better word. I would have liked to have made progress a lot faster, but now that the prices have soared to such a degree, people are inevitably starting to think that, you know, we need to start taking care of our own needs. In our own on our own land. So inspiring and catalyzing the power of communities is the biggest challenge that we've been confronting and that we are seeing will show better results as circumstances get tougher and tougher. Yeah, so I think for the sake of using the time as best as I can. This is something that I thought was really interesting to share diversity as we see it in in these circles is usually with regard to plants and animals and flora and fauna. I think this is really nice to look at and try to communicate with those with the non converted, maybe I should call that diversity is as important for natural systems as it is for human cultures. Imagine not having this language distribution around the world, which is obviously extremely simplified. There are thousands of languages that are also becoming extinct day to day. And there I want to jump on to campsite. This is the function of campsite and the look like the surface of Mars. This is what it looked like in 2018 when we started work here. This is not the only other and on the area where we work on. We have four implementation sites. We have where we live and where I'm speaking to you today. Where we basically have all of our evolutionary steps in the last 10 years concentrated and from here on, we work both on this property and on three other properties. And one of those properties is our campsite in Zeytun, which used to look like this and from a height, a little bit like this with conventional olive groves surrounding it or open seasonal grain pastures that are also seasonal. So this is the size is approximately for hairs. And we dare to start planting in this manner using plenty of varieties and trees, local fruit and nitrogen fixing varieties from seed and also from seedlings over time. This is what it looks like recently and the plantings on contour. Here is a picture that has been taken recently, 12th of December. You see along the contour lines, organic matter that has been organized and the plants that have been organized along the 12 meter height difference of the property from top to bottom. Here is how we can come home and look the bottom up. You see both local wild varieties that have planted from seed as well as perennial nitrogen fixers, ground covers, plants that are, are you able to hear me? I'm just getting a message that my connection is unstable. Yes, we can hear you. Okay. And could you, Inge, please also give me a heads up in terms of timing. Yes. Preferably, it would be great if you could maybe close like two to three, four minutes. Two to three, four minutes. Okay, let me fly then. Or five. Okay. Okay. Thank you. So then I'll move there. Close, closer ups alongside the control lines here. This is more midsummer where grains have been grown and only harvested. From top and talks are down because the soil temperatures reach 60, 65 degrees in the summertime. So these are the border plantings that are also very recent. Here is our home and our base. Here is where we have our greenhouse, our seed garden. I had a little one minute video of this. Hello. Can you hear me? Yes. If you shut down your video, when you stop your video then sharing your screen, your performance will be increased probably. Can you please try? Shut down my video? Yes, stop your video and then continue to sharing your screen. Probably it will be more easier to transfer for the line. Oh, like that. Okay, like this. Yep. Okay. Is this still visible? Yeah. The screen is visible and you're more stable. Okay. Good. Thank you so much. Thank you. So I think this gives an idea. I won't let you go through the whole for the sake of showing you what the seed garden looks like more recently. This is still, so we have both vegetable propagation here as well as herbal medicines, medicinal herbs, fruit trees, local tree varieties that we multiply from seed. Here you see sweet potatoes and turmeric and leukaena and so on and so forth. This is where we concentrate our saplings. Here is because I have so little time I'll just go. Oh, that's my son, my middle son. We also started integrating propagation in between the rows of our olive grove like so. I don't know if you're able to die and see. Let me see if this is better. The underneath thing, the understory we're propagating. Here's maybe it's harder to see but it's integrated in syntropic bed shapes. You see broad beans in and amongst tree plantings. Here's some other examples. This is another property, yet another property where we have different soil conditions but I won't go into any detail. I just want to provide a feeling. This is yet another property. This is the smallest property we work on. It's 450 square meters and we have only been working on this approximately five years now but it really is a 450 square meter jungle of all types of fruits and vegetables on all lakes. It's really beautiful to see and observe and to walk amongst it and harvest and share and enjoy. So maybe to close, transforming our value definition I think is as John also so eloquently puts the most critical driver that we will need. I try to put it in my own words from serving individuals endless desires by monitoring maximization techniques that are based on debt economies and war strategies to breathable air, drinkable water, nutrient dense clean food, farming cultures that serve the functioning of natural cycles, thriving local and circle economies and vibrant communities. I think this is what we ought to strive for and what makes most sense for us and for those who are coming after us. I just found this which I thought was really nicely put. You have to ask yourself if our economic system actively destroys the biosphere and fails to meet most people's basic needs, then what is actually the point? And maybe I'll leave you with that. Thank you so much for listening and for having me. Thank you Alp for sharing this. Yeah, your inspiring story and the work that you are doing. It's really amazing. I think a lot of people have questions for you. I already saw some in the chat. So if you do have a question, you can raise your hands by clicking on the reaction button and raise your hands. Alp, maybe you can stop sharing. And we can see everyone again. Hello. Are there any questions for Alp? I saw a question about water management. Sorry, John, we couldn't hear you. Still can't hear you John. Still muted. Of course you can't. I turned off my blue. My yeah, it's back on. No questions for Alp. Or are we still. I think the water question is very important. What's your rainfall and what's the difference between rainfall and available moisture? What's the difference between the rainfall and available moisture? I don't know specifically. I do know that we have up to 800 millimeters of rainfall per year. I do know that precipitation and over evaporation is prevalent over seven months of the year. So precipitation over evaporation is about four or five months of the year. But the ratio I would not be able to say. I don't know. I see a question from Jonathan. What is your water source and is there a potential for depleting the aquifers? Absolutely. On the campsite, we have no water source. It's the rain and in the summertime. We have been using water from water source, both aquifers, but also from a location that's fairly in the vicinity about two kilometers, two to three kilometers away. Where groundwater level is very high. So the water is readily available. And we transport the water in two to four ton tanks behind tractors to give life force to the seedlings and saplings over the course of summer. I would say an average of one once a month and aim to keep the plants alive over the course of the summer with a lot of mulch. In fact, we almost exaggerated in certain areas. But we're in despite of that hard hit. This last summer about 40% of our saplings dried up because of temperatures that reach 57 degrees. Due to wildfires. So to hear that out. But I think I also like to say that the way we use the land and also in other properties is by either terracing and putting in ponds and swells. We have where we have our base and our home and our workshop and seed garden and all. We have built systems before we built anything else. So we have, you know, systems that are built on traditional style, where we have a reservoir of about 300 tons of water that we then gravity feed alongside the terraces. That is that does not suffice though for us throughout the summer. And we do need to get support from the village water that is channeled. You have to write your name, you have to enter your name in the list. And when it's your turn, you get water and we fill our systems with it. And as a third option, we do have an aquifer on our property as well. So we try to put as little impact on the on that and as much focus on harvesting the and using the water passively. Thanks. Do you have a question? Yes, thank you. I have, I have to actually, um, I know that when we were in a conversation online a few days ago, you mentioned something. About how you're starting to experiment with planting different vegetation that hasn't traditionally been indigenous to your area in response to climate change. And I think it was vegetation that's more prevalent in North Africa. So I'd love you to tell the group a little bit more about that. And then secondly, I'm just dying to know what opportunities there are for campers. At functional forests to get involved in all the amazing work that you're doing and diverse work too. Yeah, thank you. If I may, if I may quickly share some pictures here just to give you a little idea in terms of, let me see if I can take this. Can you, can you see my screen? Yeah. These are some of our experiments, some of our consortiums that we're trying out. Just want to give you a feeling of them before I tell you some varieties. Obviously, these are close ups. And it seems to be moving fairly slowly, but so what we tried to do by means of using the synchropic farming method. All the stratus, all the layers of forest, a functional forest that meets all our need from building materials to obviously producing the biodiversity, biomass and organic matter that is needed to have a strong and striving forest through to, you know, protein and oils and essential oils, as I said, food, medicines and fibers. So these are a few examples that might give you a little sense of how in the Mediterranean, when you see when you look at this picture, for example, up to the top of it, you see how dry it is. We still have to, we can only see the little mini thumbnail images, we can't see the full pictures. Oh, is that right? Yeah. What is that? See this? No, it's still the same collection of thumbnails. Well, I don't know. You may be hearing the wrong screen up. You have to unshare and then open the picture that you want to show and then use that rather than your whole thing. Okay. We see. So do you see this? Soon, not yet. It's black. Oh, there it is. There it is. Okay. Okay. So you actually didn't see all the pictures I showed so far? No, we saw the thumbnails, yeah. So the whole front page with the thumbnails. Oh my, all right. Well, that's too bad. So let me just very quickly show you a few more close-ups just to give you an idea. These are, you see, from peanuts to the others. You see figs. You see rosemary. You see, let's see. Probably best to drop your video once more so that it goes more smoothly. Much better. I think it has to do with my connection. Apologies for that. Well, if you have seen a few visuals, maybe that gives you an idea. And so the first question was in terms of plant varieties. And they go, I guess, all the way from, let me see. Why is that showing me start my video now? Sorry. We're trying out wild varieties as well as domesticated varieties. We are experimenting with a variety called Grevia tenax, for example. That is very high in iron. Particularly great for women. And unfortunately, I can't say much as of yet because that's been just on site for a couple of years. And I was expecting it to grow much faster, but it is not. Things like sweet potatoes and turmeric and things like that from South America have done a lot better than those varieties from North Africa. So we are trying. I said that during that talk, but I wouldn't say that it's working here and it's a work in progress. We're experimenting with a lot of varieties. The other one in terms of campers. Well, I guess we need to talk about the context and the length of the stays and what people are bringing. And I think I was pretty clear or we're also pretty clear on our camp page that we really need to host people that can help us during this time. We have a lot of work and a lot of conditions to respond to. And hosting should go hand in hand with really taking up responsibilities here on site. So if people are ready to take responsibility on various jobs, then we can of course talk about that one on one and hear and see what people are intending to bring and what they're interested in. Yeah, I would like to talk to you about how the announcement should be made so that it makes it easier for people to be able to apply. Our page was fairly well set up. And hopefully they can try connecting with us via the, the campaign. Thank you. I'll cut this shared to your campaign in the chat so everyone can have a look. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Oh, I did ask you to stop your video so therefore it asked you to start your video again. Because we can't see you now. So therefore you got this pop up question. Yes, you're back. Sorry. And do you still have a question. No, I don't. I was I was just raising my hand with politeness to tell Alp about the thumbnail thing, but then I just went for it with my words. So I'll lower my head. Thank you. Thank you. I hope you're feeling better. Thanks Alp. Yeah, I am. I see a question in the chat from Russ Cohen. Russ, are you willing to ask up your question in person because I see you have a question. Sure. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Okay, so, so here in my region of the US, we're very much interested in planting native species to support ecological functions, the food web are native birds and insects and so on. It's an opportunity to achieve multiple objectives by doing that as well as plant plants that are useful for humans for food and fiber and stuff like that. So I was just inquiring to the extent if any that you're trying to work that into what you're doing in your project. And I did not understand the last part. Acoustically. Sorry. Sorry about that. Can you read the chat because I've written the question in the. Okay. For examples of how to incorporate ecological functionality. No, before that. It's a little bit. Do you see it out or I can read it. Can you can you read it please. And to what extent, if any, are you planting native to your region plants species that might serve important ecological functions, such as serving as food for insects there are in turn for food for birds that might also have value for people. For example, food or fiber. I would say 60 70%. The large extent. 60 to 70% of what you're planning are native species. Yes. Oh wow, that's pretty high. Yes. All all our new plantings. We set ourselves a bar of planting, you know, around 80%. But I can't say we're there. But that's what we're aiming for. I think we can have a whole conversation at some point, just on natives and invasives and aliens and all of that. I think it's a very important conversation because there's some sort of vilification of certain species, which are a little bit difficult when they are pioneer species which are replacing something which is missing. And they're just doing a task and when they finish that task, then they'll probably be supplanted by the legacy genome. I mean, this has to be observed. I mean, and there are certain other species which are really, really terrible in the fact that they spread so rapidly and that they have some alo path or something that won't allow other plants to live. So they have very, very powerful defenses to ensure their survival and to take over some other habitat. But we'll we'll lovely to have that conversation at another time. I would just very quickly like to say that with my experience. And of course, I can't 100%, but what I can say is that the more invasive, the better in the initial initiation phase of the plantings. And if you set up the planting area and if you have the appropriate technologies for pruning, then to me, that is a better way forward with accelerating growth of the the keystone species and species that we'd like to keep for the long term. Then try to haul organic matter from elsewhere or use organic inputs from elsewhere. That's my experience and that's my observation. Thank you. I do see as people asking if you are able to share your presentation with with all of us after this session. Yes, absolutely. Okay, that's great. I do see more questions in the chat. You can also raise your hand so you can ask the question in person. But I do see a question from Kandan to Han, I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly. And she's asking what wild harvesting means. She saw that in the announcement for tonight. And maybe you can explain that a little bit. Inge. Yes. I'm sorry, did you, I did not hear anything. Okay, I'm sorry. Can you hear me now. Yes. All right. And there was a question in the chat asking about what wild harvesting means. She saw that in the announcement. So maybe you can explain a little bit about wild harvesting. Thank you. Yeah. Wild harvesting is picking food from the wild. Wild harvesting is picking fruit and greens to eat, but it is also picking seed material, cuttings, mushrooms. Yeah, that's generally the scope of our wild harvesting. We also do a little bit of seaweed harvesting from the shores of the KG's lake on season when it's available and when it has withered with permission from local authorities. Nice. And do you also collect seeds to do sort of seed banking activities? Yeah, I mean, I have been working with seeds for almost 20 years. I've been working in also in an institute in a seed institute in New Zealand for a year. And then when I came back to Turkey in 2010, that's what I immediately started doing and I continuously seek for seed varieties. But I have to say, seed banking, unless it is an actively planted and year by year renewed seed bank, is a very dangerous endeavor. I think over the last 10, 20 years, a lot of people have just put themselves out and have been extremely enthusiastic about going to seed sharing events and buying seeds and selling seeds and exchanging seeds and setting up all sorts of seed sheds and rooms and cupboards and whatnot. And then those seeds just basically going to waste. And I think it is the worst thing we can do. Only those who can year by year renew their germplasm, their seed materials should be having a seed bank, I think. We have a seed room ourselves and we have about 2000 varieties and 2000 varieties we are not able to keep up with. So we are on the rapid pace to diminish. Of course, you can have very little amounts from different varieties and try them out. But you also know that seed viability also goes down over every year. So, yeah, that's what I think about the seed seed issue. Thank you. That's also interesting information. Are there any more questions or follow up questions? I will quickly look into chat. I do, I do have another question, but I don't want to overrule anyone. Alp, I'm curious. How are the conversations going with any landowners in your surrounding or other farmers? I'm curious. Yeah, thank you for the question. Well, the conversations with the landowners in our area is going horribly. Because the Turkish leader has lost tremendous value and continues to lose tremendous value on a daily basis. So the land prices have increased over 200 fold. And when you have that kind of value lunacy, I'll call it, it's very difficult to motivate anyone to do anything. But as I said, the really traditional villages, those who have fought for their land and their trees also over the course of the summer. Those who want to continue their legacy are really interested, as I said, increasingly interested over the course of the summer. We've also been asked more and more about trees and tree planting and how to integrate trees in the farming practices. And we are getting more and more positive feedback from people who are closely working within the village. And on another note, even though I said what I said with regard to those areas that have been burned and are influenced strongly by the governmental initiatives. There is also a group, a large group of experts that I'm a part of that I had been a part of in these last three months, where we're developing a development and restoration project for four to five of those villages that have been affected by fires. So that is going fairly swiftly and boldly and the global ecovillage network is also a part of it. And so that is something that might actually pull an important trigger for our area and other areas in the country in terms of way of doing things. We're talking there all the way from water harvesting to agricultural transformation to archaeological sites being turned into areas where communities can take responsibility and integrate with their income in some form or shape. You know, that which they have they have been producing, they have, they might have opportunities in those areas to sell to visitors archaeological site visitors and also visitors from the sea, and so on and so forth. So there's, there's, I think this is, this is a time where where things have started churning, I don't like talking too much before things start happening. Things start to churn also in our area, I think we'll see, we'll be able to sit in a local village cafe and be able to have chats around ecosystem restoration and that's my vision. Step by step. Thank you Al. John. Thank you. Yeah, I just wonder if, you know, what I've been looking at and considering for some time and and we've, we've done a bit of this. And it is that if we do a kind of, well, it could be systematic like theory you or it could be just a more lazy fair, but if we if we have things are discussed in public. For instance, if if Alp needs to have specific people come and maybe they need, he needs specific skills and he maybe he needs some financial support for that. And so maybe we could have a small committee or one or two people who take on the idea of working with Alp to design exactly what he needs. And if he needs five people or 10 people, and he needs $20,000 or $50,000 or something, then let them take that as a task. I think there's some people who haven't yet got their own camps or, you know, they're, they're, they want, they want to be involved. So if they if they're, if there were one or two or five people who wanted to come together to say, let's go to Turkey. Let's help out to set up a, you know, a training program that is training by doing. It's not, it's not like let's go and we're going to just relax and hang out and maybe learn a little something. But we're actually going to take on a task that is needed in Turkey at the at the functional forest camp and design it exactly what's needed together without and then go out and find these people go out and find the resources to make it happen. And that way it doesn't it doesn't like it isn't like somebody shows up who maybe is high maintenance and, you know, it just want to go is going for fun and doesn't really want to do anything. But the right people with the right skills and the resources come at the same time and the planning is there so you know exactly how many people you can house and you know how many meals and all of that sort of thing. And I would also throw in this, this creator space idea again because I'm really, I'm really keen on this that if you get the creator space, and you get the central kitchen right, you get the whole community, because they'll all come to you. And I think we can go even further and save seed banks and, and especially Alp if you're talking about doing it correctly so that the seeds are not dehydrated and frozen for 100 years or some kind of thing. But are the legacy genome is protected. And I think Russ looks like Russ has a lot of knowledge in this. So I hope he is a, you know, goes with us for the long call on this on this path. But then the other thing that I think is critical is the understanding of botanical sanctuaries. So if we understand the concept of botanical sanctuaries it's not simply seed banks and renewing them it's also planting out the most endangered perennials as well. But anyway, the idea would be, get a small committee, give them the task of creating a training course that is in something that's done that you need, so that, let's say 10 people are needed to go and do this training course and there would be one or two people who are experts and there are eight people who are, who are maybe capable of doing things and are eager to participate in that. So then how much money is required and so on that could, that could be dealt with in numerous ways. But the other thing that I think is happening, and we're going to see this more and more, is that the value of functional ecosystems in the dominant economic system is zero. And this is why you have this collapsing scenario of the economic system and the real value of functional ecosystems is vastly higher than anything that human beings have ever made and everything that human beings will ever make. So the situation is really quite different than it seems at the moment. So we're now in an almost fantastic or illusory situation where the true value is said to be zero and the false value of materialism is said to be worth more and the basis of our economy. Well we can't have a consumption economy with the number of human beings that we have because we end up with these, well, the billionaire class or whatever trillionaires or they want to go to space or whatever and the billions of people who are starving on the earth are wandering around at the edges of large degraded ecosystems. They don't have any rights, never mind. That's not acceptable. So I think we need to be having this conversation deeply, consistently, but not in an argumentative way, but in a like, well what are we going to do about this? This is what it looks like and there's got to be another way. So coming together and answering hard questions and we're talking about very, very hard questions. The hydrological system is not simple, but the fact is evolution brought the water, the moisture quite close to the earth. And so we have to learn how to keep the moisture very close to the earth and when we don't, then we get these disruptions and climate disruptions and temperature changes. So now we haven't been empowered to, and by the governments or by everybody, but if we don't need permission, if we're able to just go and say we will do it and go do it, then we're actually creating more value than anyone else. And ultimately, if you have a central kitchen, a creator space, seed bank, regional seed bank and a botanical sanctuary, you're the most valuable place in your region for sure. So this is kind of like how I see this, possibly playing out. I hope everybody likes that vision too. Thank you, John, for sharing your ideas and also the idea of maybe helping out this way. There was a good question from Hannah asking what type of skills is Alp looking for? I think Cass sent our link on the camp pages where there is an area of a list there. Yeah, that's great. People can contact you by filling in the application form, that's correct, right? Yeah, I also wrote my email address into chat here, if people have further questions. Okay, well I would recommend that if you have any ideas or you feel that you would love to help Alp in a way, please. I think Patricia wanted to ask a question. I thought her hand was raised. No, maybe not. Sorry. No worries. Larry. Thank you, everyone. I don't know if there is still a question from one of you for Alp or for the ideas John raised? Well, I want to say thank you to John for thinking about those things. And I think it needs to be crafted out well. And yeah, I mean, that is the only way we'll be able to make progress and be able to bring in skill sets together in order to make things happen that otherwise are not possible to be done. And I would say it is the resourcefulness that we're looking for, because the resources that we're looking after that may be categorized under the name of funds, I think are the easiest ones to get. And I think the hardest ones to get is to have the, not only the skill sets, but also the chemistry working because, and also with the, you know, there were a number of questions with regards to, you know, volunteering or visiting and camp stays. We are really open, but we are really open for, for long term commitment. We want to work with people who are committed and not who are fishing. You know, fishing is right. Fishing is also needed. Don't get me wrong. It's just possible to do during the camp organizations when we have a camp event week to three weeks or something like that. But when we're talking about, you know, engagement and really transforming something really bringing no knowledge and experience and wisdom together, we really need to eat a lot of meals together. We really need to wake up early and go to bed late together for a, you know, while we can't just get that done by means of setting up, you know, two dates, beginning and end date. We just have to set the beginning date and then see where we go from there. I mean, you know what I'm saying. Yes, thank you. I think maybe some people, we've been here now an hour and a half, and some people may need to go. I know some people have already had to go. But I think if it's, if there's no other real serious questions, we could just stay here and have with anybody who wants to stay and have an open conversation. If you want to stay and have an open conversation, I think you have to open your camera. So make sure you're wearing pants and so on. But then let's stay and have a conversation with anybody who wants to stay. I see Daniel and and Cadita. I haven't seen them since they left here on their way back from from Glasgow to Portugal and they're back in Portugal and they were just at the Altiplano camp, which is exciting and interesting. And, and Ferdy is here. Unfortunately, he wasn't still at the camp in Spain. So you, I guess you didn't get to see him meet him. And it's fair to say, John, 49 people from all over the world has joined this session tonight, which is amazing. Thank you for that. Yeah, feel free to stay obviously for this open discussion with John. But if you need to leave then also feel free to leave as well. It's not just with John, it's with everybody. It is with everybody for everybody who wants to say but I still want you to say thanks to Al for for giving his presentation and sharing your journey with us and I really admire all the work that you do. And I think this session was very valuable for everyone here so thank you for taking this time. Thank you for taking this time and listening so patiently. Thank you very much. I think especially Alp, I know that you've been having some trouble with the health of your family and and difficulties in the country. So thank you so much for doing this for us. And for, and hopefully it will all be for everyone's. All of us. Yeah, hopefully it's where it has something that serves all of us. Thank you. Well now, everybody who's still here. Can you turn on your cameras or are you going to stay hiding back there or you're not wearing pants. They're leaving us. Well, it's, it's good to see everybody and Mick, Mick. Hello. Where are you, you've got a loft up there or something. It's my former student house in Wageningen. I've been here for a while. Oh yeah. Lovely. Is that in that wonderful place that what was it called? Driven doll. Precisely. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Driven doll. Wonderful place. Yeah, great. You know about it. I see you have a hand raised. Is that intentional? Yeah, it is actually a Mac. I think that many people here this evening actually haven't met you before. And I think it would be amazing if you could introduce yourself as the newest member of the ERC support team and excitingly tell everyone what your, your formal new role entails and what it's going to see you doing over the next year because it's really exciting. Yeah. Yeah, sure. I'm very happy to, to tell a little bit more about that and about my role. So I began working with ERC as a student intern when I was enrolled here in Wageningen. And now since November, I'm working as the impact measurement coordinator to hopefully support and help all the camps to collect ecological data, but also data on personal transformation happening, you know, among the people who are visiting the camps, participating in experiences and even collecting data. And also, we hope to be looking at socioeconomic indicators. So we're now working with one framework that is, that is considering the three components soil, soil and society inspired in Satish Kumar's book. And right now I'm, I'm learning from the camps, what's what the restoration goals are, and, you know, hopefully working towards monitoring programs that help each camp to, to monitor these aims and, you know, keep track of their, of their work and, hopefully work to towards successful outcomes. But that's a little bit about me and I'm, yeah, I'm still at, you know, I'm still at a very small subset of camps right now. So I actually didn't manage to talk with Alp yet. It's been really nice to, to hear about functional forests and the type of work that you are doing there. And I think there's so much to learn. So I look forward to, to engage in the conversation with greater depth as well. Welcome. Thank you. And I also realized that John is in the Netherlands at the same time I am so hopefully we can, our paths can still meet tomorrow or so because I'm leaving tomorrow. Well, I'm in, I'm in Hunikan near Utrecht where you're in Wageningen. So not too far. Not too far. Yeah. We'll have to see for all the testing I need to do now, but yeah, we'll be in touch about that. Okay. Listen, I had a very big interest in what Russ was asking about Russ Cohen. Are you, are you still on? Or are you wearing pants? I'm still on. So I'm having my lunch. Oh, it's no time here in Massachusetts. So it's dinner. Have a bite. It's, it's dinner time, but I had it with behind my picture earlier. It was soup. Highly recommended. Russ, Russ, about native species and what you're thinking. All right. So very briefly. So I retired from my day job with the mass fishing game department back in 2015 and since then I'm playing the role of Johnny Appleseed in case you know who he is or was for edible native species and I've set up a nursery outside of Boston where I'm propagating over a thousand plants. I started growing from seed. I gathered myself and then I'm working on arrangements with organic farms and land trusts and tribal groups and state and federal agencies schools and colleges and stuff to plant plants my nursery in appropriate places and their properties. I've done about two dozen projects so far. So no communal kitchens. And I'm not really growing stuff at a scale that can provide significant food supply but what I'm doing is further diversifying sites with edible native species that fit in with the plants that are already there is basically what I'm doing. If I could ask you a couple of questions like we have one camp that's forming in Appalachia and it's a it's a mountain top removal site with it's it's huge it's 7000 acres it's it's got quite a, you know, tremendous challenges obviously because the sort of social, economic, psychological addiction issues, poverty issues there are intense. And so I think botanical sanctuaries and you have to also maybe it could possibly help answer this I think they're more valuable than you know giant stores filled with plastic junk from China or whatever it is. It can't you know, it can't it can't be true that a bunch of TV sets and a bunch of telephones that are going to end up leaking toxic substances into the landfill sometime soon are more valuable than our functional ecosystems and if you know if we could, if we could help, for instance, all the camps or places like the new camp in in in Appalachia to become a botanical sanctuary where it really did a serious job of going out and and protecting propagating and planting out the most endangered species in the region. This would be like a huge sacred responsibility but also of enormous value. What you're thinking about this kind of idea would you be able to help others to get into this area. Yes, but I know a better group than me, a group that's local to that area, and it's called United Plant Savers and I'm going to drop the link into the chat for them. Do you know is that Chris. Hold on a second. I've got the wrong link. I'll grab it. Yeah, keep talking. If there's a guy named Chris something. Do you know who's who's the principal in their doctors. Well, it's it's mainly a woman owned group so that name doesn't sound familiar. United Plant what United Plant Savers. This isn't the right link. Hold on, I'll grab it here. Yeah, I was at the bio. It's aware. It's in Rutland, Ohio. It's in the Appalachian section of Ohio. Okay. All right, I just found it. All right, so I will drop this in the chat. A few years ago I went to the Bio Nutrient Association in Massachusetts. Yeah, I know that. Yeah, and I, there were seed saving and seed exchange there is beautiful. I think that should be massively supported and like we have camps now in Somalia and Syria and Morocco and Jordan and Egypt and so on. Throughout Africa, different places. I think it could be enormous if we could help. To have systemized. Seed collection seed trading seed saving, it would help them escape from this this Monsanto. Mono monoculture and, and genetically modified seeds that are being promoted even by Bill Gates and the Gates Foundation in Africa. But it's really tough when they, when somebody like Gates and the Gates Foundation gets to the government in Africa. They listen. They, they turn that into a policy. It's, it's horrifying. So anyway, if you can help, I gave you, I thank you. Now I have your email and so on. Let's stay in touch. Okay. Thank you. Sure. I have a question about this. And I'm thinking about degrading the Sahel. I mean, they're seen now and so on. And it's a kind of area where there's no kind of native plants. What would you recommend to do in there? Are you talking about the Sahel in Africa? I was thinking actually seen now. In the Sinai. Yeah. Well, you know, there is a botanical garden in Cairo, which is quite amazing. Let me see. And there is a, there is a flora palestinia. There is a, I think it's, it's several volumes. I have it, I have it physically and digitally. So it's a quite large thing. And, you know, these are the areas, these places were called the land of milk and honey and the Garden of Eden. So, you know, they definitely have a legacy genome. And we're, I think the thing that we're looking at in the Sinai is more that the whole food web is disrupted. So it's really microbial and fungal activity that needs to be stimulated. But they may be dormant. So we're, they're, they're, I don't know if you've seen the Holy Grail of restoration. Did he disappear? I think John froze there. Yeah, I think he disappeared. It might be a battery issue or internet. That's really unfortunate. Yes, it is. Does anyone else want to answer Tonya's question or have a question for her? Because I think John, I'd be interested. Are you at Camp Habiba? Where are you Tonya in Sinai? No, actually, I'm in Finland for a moment, but I'm planning to go into Habiba later. But the speakers were talking about the native plants. So it was thinking because they basically not growing anything for a moment. I understand I haven't been there yet. So how to choose the plants, what is going to be growing there? Right. And they're not growing anything native at the moment. I didn't know it wasn't there because now it's a desert, isn't it? So if they're breeding Sinai, so what kind of plants they're going to choose? Right. I don't have the answer, but I'm sure that they have some. I see another question from Kandan Tuhan. I'm really sorry if I mispronounce your name, sorry. Of course you do. It's a difficult name to pronounce. Can you hear me well? Yes we can. How do I pronounce it correctly? The first name is like a J, it's Jandan. Yeah, I wasn't sure if this was the right platform to ask this question and maybe the answer is in your website or something. But since we're just having a conversation, I decided to ask where do you start the design of these ecosystem restoration camps? How does the design work? Or is this a method that is systematically implemented if we decide to become a camp? Because I have this area in Middle Anatolia that I'm trying to kind of restore and use agriculturally and we haven't been very successful so far and I'm always looking for other more productive ways of taking care of it. Thank you for asking and how exciting that you're starting to restore the land. Yes, we do have information about this available on our website and we also developed the ecosystem restoration design course to help you with that. But unfortunately it just started in September 2021 and the next one will be starting again in September 2022. But there are several modules and I believe that the last module is about designing and it will start I believe around April if I'm correct. So if you want I can write down your email address and can send you some more information about that. Yes, we can do that or I can contact you on the website. But then another basic question is how do we become a camp? Maybe I'd like to become one of your camps and how does that work? Yes, well that's also a really good question. Well how do you become a camp? We do have become a camp guide on our website that is explaining how it works. But there are some several things that are really important for us when we are starting to work with a project and one of them is actually that the project is obviously a legal project, a legal entity as well preferably non-profit and we try to work with projects that are working beyond their fence as well. So projects that are not only focused on their own restoration activities but also look beyond how can I help or influence other farmers or other projects and how can we really make this a local embedded initiative because we realize that that is so important to be successful in all the restoration activities. And then preferably you have a design and ecosystem restoration plan in place so that we know that you are already on a certain level. And the idea is of the ecosystem restoration camps as well is that campers are joining your projects to help you out and we also see this as a sort of a business model to sustain your financial needs. So infrastructure should be in place, it should be legal also to host campers and we will just have a conversation on those aspects health and safety policies are important as well. But I have to say that we do have loads of projects applying that are still in the seed phase, that's how we call them, the projects that are still planning, still having the ideas. And we would really like to help them, but we realize that we do not have enough resources to help them to grow from a seed to seedling. And therefore we decided to currently work with seedlings and established camps only, but we are developing a roadmap course that will be available in September 2022. And this will help projects grow from a seed to seedling. And after you finished this roadmap journey, you are ready to apply to become a camp. So, as you know the ecosystem restoration camps just started in 2017. So the supporting team is also still a startup and we try to help every project as much as we can but it's also for us still a journey to figure out how we can do that in the in the best possible way. So that's why we are working on this roadmap for for the seeds. I hope that answered your question. Yes, it answered my question perfectly and it looks like I am at least a seedling and I just saw from the corner of my eye, I priding to me so yeah I will communicate with them later of course I had it in mind before asking the question anyway but I just wanted to bring it up here. Yeah, I do I do fit a lot of the conditions that you just described we're a we're an NGO and we are looking beyond our own plans to become a model for the area which is basically an agricultural area, etc. So anyway, thanks a lot I don't want to take any more time from questions. It's very very valuable to to ask this question because not everyone knows how to how to become a camp and what the steps are so I hope that it's valuable for more people. We do have the camp interest form or become become a camp interest form on our page and if you feel that in we will contact you to have a further conversation about. Okay. Okay, great. Thank you very much. No problem. Thank you for asking. And I see that john is back. Was it a battery issue john. No, no my Wi Fi quit and I had to restart my Wi Fi and then it came back. I was stifled. I'm about to be 70 I can't believe it, but there it is. I'm giving up on technology I don't believe in it anymore. After spending a life in television. I don't believe in in technology. Crazy. Do you remember john and I count also believe that you're almost 70. I mean, your spirit is still so high so that's do not talk about age or numbers because I think the spirit and the energy is the most important thing. You know what we were talking about. You were you were in conversation with Tonya. I think about native species in the senior region. Right, I'm going to send the, I was, I was looking for the trail of restoration. So let me let me put that into the chat and then everything went south. Nothing worked. So, let me see. But keep talking, don't don't stop talking. Yes, we were. We just had a short conversation on how projects can become a camp. And I'm now reading to chat. Are there any other questions or yes. Go for it, Nick. Hi. Yes, um, thanks everyone for hosting. I'm very curious I noticed there's a I have a question about rewilding in Holland. As it relates to rewilding here in California. The, um, I know there is this site called, I think I'm going to mess, mess up the pronunciation, but. But. Now. Thank you. I love your pronunciation. Say it again. Say it again. Oostvaartse plassen. Oostvaartse plassen. Plassen. Plassen. Oostvaartse, yeah. Oostvaartse of Oostvaarder. Oostvaarder plassen, maybe. Is it Oost? Park de plassen. Oostvaarder, I thought. Ah yeah, it is Oostvaarder plassen. Probably my accent, my Dutch accent that I make up my own words. So it's very similar here in California. We have a lot of. Like right here in Point Reyes, we have an elk refuge, but they're all fenced. And there's, there's no natural predators. So they're, they're getting overpopulated and sick. And it's surrounded by dairy ranches. And so there's a, there's a lot of heated political discussion around the ethics of rewilding and why we can't create corridor, wildlife corridors where ecosystem function of predator prey and herd relationships can then begin to sequester the carbon and do the restoration naturally, right? Yet I find this Holland example so, so fascinating because it is so dense in population and wondering if there couldn't be a camp that moves around the different farms and creates hedgerows that through all the farms of Holland to connect the, the migratory roots of the species that are fenced in this wonderful refuge. So that they're, they can re, they can exchange genetic material with species of their kind throughout Europe. I love that idea. I'm, I'm maybe make or fairly is better answering these because I do know that we do have some eco roots, but it's not going through farms area, farming area. Nick, did you have anything about this concerning in your, during your studies? Well, we, we, we did slightly and lightly look into the effectiveness of these, it's like bridges crossing roads and attempts to connect. Yeah, to make habitat connectivity a little better. So the sad reality turned out to be that very few animals actually use these, these mechanisms that we put in place. So all the surveys done around, you know, because there was a lot of studies conducted in terms of costs and benefits. And so they looked at how much it was actually being used by wildlife for the purposes it, you know, it was there to be used and it's not, it's not turning out to be very effective. And I think one of the big challenges in this host wireless plus a project has been, has, has to do with the harshness of nature and also I think a learning curve regarding, you know, the right population in terms of how much grazing pressure is allowed and what the carrying capacity is of the ecosystem and maybe the balance between predators, which I believe, well, I don't know exactly, but they were not, they were not present or I think it's human species was the only predator species being really considered. So it's, it's been a very, it's been a very reactive experiment. I think people were realizing, wow, there's way too, too many animals. We, there's not enough food around. Also habitat connectivity is an issue, perhaps to reach new territory. But yeah, I think, I think there's very important lessons to be learned from, from this initiative. And I haven't really studied it myself though. I have been there and had pretty good long talks with Franz Witte who designed this area. And yeah, they, I think that death is part of life. And one of the biggest problems is that it's, it's kind of covered up death is like cleaned up in the society. So in, in us, us verdants plaza, plaza, it's, you know, death is, is there, you know, it's the trees are dead because they all the, all the deer that came in there, they ring the trees because there were too many deer and they ate the trees and the trees fell over. And so the trees are lying, they're dead. And then if, then when there isn't enough food, then the deer die. And then there are horses and there are these strange long, you know, all of these things they, they really, they, and so I think that the great greatest thing that happened was what happened to the, to the British, the British started copying this in, in manor houses and these big properties in the UK. This is quite extraordinary. But I see that Daniel has something to say he is a a longtime forester who's been working in the Mata Atlantica in Brazil. And now he's in Portugal. So you got your hand up so you better unmute. Hi, John. Thank you for inviting us to, to come here today. Miss you so much. It was amazing that the time has been with you there. Yeah, I, I hear you talking about the problem of how to measure or how to, to get the species together after a very huge disruptive event like wildfires or cyclone or something. And then we have some strategic species, some key species that almost all lost. And then we have other species that raise too much and get sick because they are unmanaged. So I, I like to use the concept of adaptive, adaptive landscapes or fitness landscapes. It's more known into evolutionary biology, but I, I adapt this concept into. Ecosystems ecology or ecology of ecosystems. Because I think that ecosystems can really much be better understood. If we have this idea that the, the species are like kind of cars running through the same direction. And eventually one get faster than the other. And then it needs to break. And then they are not one who just trespass it. It's kind of related to the concept of what's the name Lotcavolterra cycle or something. Which is basically that days of world model. So I like this concept because it makes simple. The understanding that ecosystems, ecosystems are an evolutionary thing. And these species are the genes like adapting to make everybody happy. Thanks for that, Daniel. Thank you. I see Margarita. Have you just joined us? Have you been here this whole time? You're muted. Yes, recently, recently I am. Margarita is in Peru. And I really hope Margarita is a fabulous sculptor. I must tell you, I slept in a house filled with sculptures and it was just the strangest thing. But they're wonderful. And she's also working to bring back a watershed high up in the Andes. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing now? What's your biggest issue right now, Margarita? Well, my biggest issue I think is like, link it all these water ponds and lakes that I restore in order to use the, and to keep the more humidity in my farm before it leaves. Because it runs through a small, all these waters goes to a small stream that is aside my farm. And they connect with another one, the biggest one and then to the river. So, yes, I bought this farm and I had a little bit of water like this. And now I have two lakes and like 14 ponds of water restoring the water through four years. I've been walking all the, yeah, this, and control lines are really essential for doing this is the first step, I think. Thank you, Margarita, hi as well. Hi. How is Ashley? Ashley is okay? She was here. Yes, she was here. She's doing better. Thanks for asking. I unfortunately have to leave. I'm so sorry. I will make you the host, John, if that's all right. So feel free to continue. I hope my, my connection will stay on, but I think it's, it's probably good. Yes. Already coming in, my goodness, there's somebody coming in. Did you, did you allow somebody to come in? Robert. Yeah. Has joined us. My goodness, people are still joining us. I just want to say thank you everyone for joining this session session and making it again and energetic and fun, fun session always brings me lots of energy. And I want to wish you a very nice, beautiful night or day. Hope to see you again soon. I also want to thank everyone. This was great. And if we don't see you, Merry Christmas and a happy new year. Yes. I hope to see you soon. Bye. Thank you. Bye. Happy Holy days. Thank you. Bye.