 Welcome to Channel 17 Town Meeting Television's legislative close-up, Williston Edition. We're here in the Williston Historical Society room of the Dorothy Alling Memorial Library in Williston. I'm Elaine Haney and my guests today are Senator Debbie Ingram of Chittenden County and Representative Terri McCaig of the Chittenden 2 District in Williston. So Terri, Debbie, thank you so much for joining us today. Let's get right into it. All right. Sounds good. So there's a bill that has passed both the Senate and the House regarding the number of representatives per district in the Senate. So we have six senators in Chittenden County and this bill would require us to have at least two districts with less than, right, no more than three senators per district. So at least two districts would be formed at Chittenden County. What does that mean for us and what does that mean once the census happens and perhaps our population has increased? Well, I've been since I am a senator. How's that? So yes, I mean, it would definitely affect Chittenden County. The combination of districts could be, you know, could be any number of things. I mean, we could have six one person, one senator districts, we could have, you know, four one person districts and one two person district. We have all different kinds of combinations. So it will really be up to the reapportionment committee that will be formed after the census data comes in. And, you know, it's often been thought in the Senate that the six person district is unwieldy and, you know, we, the Chittenden County senators actually co-sponsored the bill. So we recognize that it's hard. I think it's hard for the voters to be able to weed through. You know, we often have 13 or 14 people running. And I think it asks a lot of voters to research all those people. It's true. It's confusing. Yeah. And then it's also hard for new candidates to come in because you have a really even stronger advantage as an incumbent than you would in other places. So I think it'll be better for everybody. But we'll just have to kind of wait and see. It won't happen until 2022. So we'll see. And because there's a reapportionment board that takes care of that, I'm guessing it's based on population. So Williston could conceivably be at the center of one of these districts because you have such a very decent sized population for Vermont town. It could be growing with about 100 people per year in Williston. So, but we also have the outlier of Colchester not being part of Chittenden County in the current setup. Good point. So, you know, what could happen? Colchester could be rolled into the mix. And so we, or more not, but it would be very interesting to see what the board comes up with. But the board doesn't have the final say. The legislature has the final say over the actual reapportionment. Who makes up that board? Who sits on that board? The legislature points them or the governor? The governor. Oh, okay. That's going to be fascinating. I can't wait to see because I mean, there hasn't been a change like that in Vermont in decades. That's true. Well, most states actually have one senator districts. And, you know, truly, I think that's probably the best for the people that are represented. But our statutes say that our senate districts should conform as closely as possible to the counties. So that's why historically. The geographic boundaries, you mean? Yes, that's right. So that's why we've had that kind of balance. But I think, you know, Terry's absolutely right that Colchester would be part of the mix. And then also the fact that Chittin County is the one area of the state that grows consistently. So we might actually even really deserve to have seven instead of six. But other parts of the state don't really like that too much if Chittin County gets outweighs too much the rest of the state. So it'll be very interesting. I don't even think the Senate has enough chairs. That's true. We got a top out of 30. That's a total. That's right. Stick someone on the end. I'm very curious to see how that's going to turn out. So that's a very interesting conversation. So, okay, starting this upcoming week is week 14, and we still don't know how we're going to pay for clean water. So I've heard candy tax. I've heard software download tax, which I'd be fascinated to find out how that would actually work. And a variety of other possibilities. Let's do some handicapping. What do you think is going to happen by the end of the session? Are we going to come up with the payment, the way to pay for it? Or we have to? We do have to. It's a matter of whether we can come up with a solution that the governor will approve of as well. You never can be sure whether we have a veto proof legislature or not at this point. A little iffy. Yeah, a little iffy. We talked about the per partial tax, which has a direct problem for Williston because we already have a tax on storm water in the town. I think also South Burlington and Colchester do as well. So would it be fair to do a per partial tax equally across the state? Or do you talk about a lower tax for people or towns that already have some kind of a funding mechanism? So I've listened to the broadcast of the night too. And that the chair of the House Ways and Means Committee said we'll come up with something between now and the time we're out of here remains to be seen. But I think we will. Why don't they want to touch the estate tax? That seems like possibly a good place to go. Yeah, well that is the governor's proposal. His proposal is also to lower the amount of revenue that we wouldn't get from the estate tax. He wants to raise the limit. I think that's a possibility, but we're just really, I think both chambers are trying to weigh all the different demands on the budget with available revenue streams. And it always becomes balancing and prioritizing on our act. And we have to work it out with the governor. But I do want to say in the Senate we've been trying to frame the discussion a little bit differently to make sure that our constituents understand that even though there may not be a single designated source of funding for water quality, the state has consistently over the last five years spent the money that we need to to make sure we're complying with the federal requirements. And so I just want to make sure your viewers understand that in FY16 we started spending around $34 million a year. We've worked our way up to spending between $50 and $60 million. And that includes federal monies that we get. So the state has and the legislature have really had a strong commitment to making sure that we are paying for it. The story has kind of switched to why don't we have a parcel tax or why don't we have a candy tax or why don't we have a specific tax for it. But the truth is we know that clean water is important. We prioritize it. We have always found the funding that we need. It varies a little bit as projects get completed and new ones need to be taken up and the federal monies vary a little bit. But we are very attentive to it and it's not quite as glum as sometimes people... It comes across in the news sometimes that Vermont needs $20 million a year for the next 20 years in order to do something and it makes it sound like we're not doing anything. Right. And that really is not true. So are there impaired waterways in Williston? Sure. Yes, Allen Brooke is an impaired waterway and we've been dealing with that for quite a number of years now and that's why we have our own per parcel fee in Williston as well to take care of the problems with Allen Brooke and who knows we might have more than just that. So yes, it'll have some bearing on us. Just follow up on what W. is saying as far as funding goes. The committee I sit on in the House, the Corrections and Institutions Committee, we deal with a capital bill which deals with bonded money and every year there's a certain amount of money that goes towards clean water and for the biennium I think we have around $24 million set aside in bonded money. The problem with bonded money is it raises the debt limit that we have and that amount that we see goes down every biennium. So when I started in the legislature I think we had about $180 million over a biennium to work with that we're down to about $123 million right now on the biennium and that continues to go down. So is Lake Iroquois seeing algae or is that also impaired? It is. I've served on the select board with Terry and we've had a variety of different the muscles where zebra mussels have been a problem and algae has been a problem in the past. Does Allenbrook run into Lake Iroquois? It does not. Okay so that's people bringing their boats in and zebra mussels on the bottom of the boats? That and the weeds that are the problem in Lake Iroquois right now it's a big problem with the mill soil and especially around the beach area and other parts of the lake so that there is an association the Lake Iroquois Association that is dealing with the problem with boats they have a bunch of volunteers that actually work with the boat owners as they come to put their boats in the water or take them out to wash them down which is really neat. They have some monies and they've been approaching the towns for some money for the mill soil control as well. Williston has been very good about supplying money on a yearly basis for that particular program so while it's not totally effective it helps. They were denied a permit from the Agency of Environmental Conservation in the last year for using a chemical to control it and there's some ongoing studies on the particular chemical that they're proposing to use so they may be back with a proposal on that in a year or two. It's just something that seems to grow and grow in terms of the responsibility of the town to take care of these kinds of issues and the mandates coming down for the level of clean water that you need to have and it's a really I'm hoping that the decision is made somehow soon that there's going to be the funding that we need because the towns are having a hard time paying for that stuff. Well yeah Williston has really been out in front and I would say most of Chittin County has really been out in front of the rest of the state but I was on this like with Terry when we spent years literally going through very carefully you know what the exact problems were with our you know impairment our stormwater mitigation needs and coming up with a stormwater coordinator here in Williston and a per parcel fee that's one thing for residences gives a break to our farms it's a different formula for our commercial property and we and we've really you know I think a lot of people in the state would say you know Williston and then you know South Burlington and some other areas of the Chittin County have been leaders in how to deal with this and how to pay for it equitably so you know I look forward to the rest of the you know through the state being able to you know to follow that example and and you know really do the job that we need. Now you touched on development and stormwater so let's go there what is up with all of the building happening at Tafts Corners and that is some substantial additions of it's mostly apartments is that right uh yeah a lot of wells housing well it's it's mixed things actually I you know I I actually think that Williston has been has done a really good job of being disciplined about our development I know that you know sometimes again it's you know perception is a little bit that oh you know we you know it used to be this field and now it's making all these places it's amazing right not necessarily bad just right really incredible how fast that's moving it's true but we've had a growth management system in place for for decades that has really kept the the growth at a at a certain level year by year and it happens that some you know some of these projects that have been going on for a long time are now kind of at the point where they can add you know some some of the apartments and some of the homes and and actually we have another development that'll be mixed to you so it'll have retail as well as as living space so they some of them are you know they are kind of coming into fruition but I think you know and Terry's been on this like we're longer than I was I mean I am but I was I chaired a couple of affordable housing task forces and we and I was on the planning commission so I mean this has been this is a big issue for Williston and you know I think that folks can be confident that we that we've done a really disciplined job of trying to make sure that we don't just have an explosion of explosion of sprawl we you know we have it concentrated in one part of the town I live in the you know the rural area and it's you know I pass by a farm when I go home so and that's really it's in that like 75 or 80 percent of town is is rural still so okay South Burlington Select Board recently put a moratorium on development because there was concerns among the residents of rapid growth all over the place so you're not seeing that here the concern of we do see some concern from some residents where you have a particular development that's existed for probably at least 20 years and on the edge of that development there's a whole bunch of land that is suitable for development and in fact it's been proposed to do that and the residents now have asked the town to join in a suit against the Act 250 commission to say there are too many issues that that violate Act 250 even though it passed all of the town regulations it passed the Act 250 criteria so now that the citizens are saying there's too much development we need to take a pause on on development I moved into town in 1966 with my family and at that time Taft Corners had a blinking red and yellow light that was it and really of course for anything around there was fields and so I've seen development happen in the town of about 1500 perhaps when we moved in to a town of over 9000 right now so and W is correct the I think that the town has done a good job on saying development will happen here where the the growth centers are and and that's where that's what the plans are right now are there concerns about the number of retail outlets coming in so there's going to be some mixed use you said with some retail in there are you concerned about empty storefronts is there enough commercial viability in Williston still to support more merchants well I think so and I think a lot of these I mean from time to time you know you see turnover but I you know I think most of the retailers are especially the ones that you know are more kind of franchised you know they do studies to see what the market is like and that sort of thing so I mean they don't just come in in blind and you know I think I mean Chittenden County the whole county continues to be an economic driver for the state and I think Williston is an economic driver for the for the county and so you know ultimately I mean we have these growing pains and some folks who have been in town for a long time sort of limit the change but I think overall the fact that we're generating more jobs and we're putting money into the economy is a is a really good thing for for all of our monitors and it's what we want to we want to see and there are other parts of the state that wish that they had the kind of you know growth and increase in economic development that that we have yeah yeah so oh please go we just had a store of course toys for us went out a business and we just had a a business that's going to take over that that oh that's that are yeah yeah so that's a good sign the select board actually asked the town manager to organize some kind of a presentation from other towns not necessarily in Vermont but other towns around the nation that have undergone a problem like this where the stores have closed and nothing's come in to take their place to see what they have done and what we might look forward to as far as planning for something like that to happen absolutely it's important to get ahead of that and not have large vacant spaces in addition to small vacant spaces peppered all over town right that's great and REI is going to be a good addition yes yeah are any of your residents talking to you about cannabis sales in the stores in wilson yes i've heard i've heard um i heard some of that um yeah i mean what's the prognosis of whether that's even going to be a thing this year with the legislature well a lot of it's up to the house the senate's past bills were three four five years running i think but it's it's the house has always been a little less uh enthusiastic about this i think the head count is going on right now to see whether the others uh the will to go ahead of this year or not uh we're getting down to that you said that the close to the end of the session we're more than two thirds of the way done um is there enough time for the house to take action i question that as to whether or not that'll happen it may happen next year um but yes there's concern i think on at least on some of the citizens parts we had a so-called opioid conference this past tuesday here in town that attracted over 150 people to come to it and part of that was marijuana part was on opioid problems and so i think you know we we currently have a zoning uh place where cannabis can be grown and in town and i think there's there'll be concern on the residents part that um whether we allow actual retail sales of it there will be uh i think a question but you know if we're surrounded by other towns that sell it retail wise uh we're gonna have to bite the bullet i think our so i don't recall whether it's been this specific in the bills that have come out of the senate and have gone to the house but are towns going to be able to opt in to selling marijuana or do they have to like is it just going to be assumed every town can and they have to opt out if they don't want to well again towns can set up their own um uh ordinances about governing it and so they could they could not you know they could outlaw them completely but um but the whole state will be you know it will be legal if should we you know should we vote in one of you know enact one of these and how would it work you know select boards are also the board of liquor control for each town so how would it work with selling cannabis would it would a do you need to get a license from the department of liquor and lottery or do you where where is that authority to allow it to happen sitting is it with the state or is with with the town the current the most recent bill that we passed in the senate then we've sent over would um would have the state um uh regulating them and so yes you would have to get a license from from the state okay okay it's curious when it feels like it's something that the town should have a little bit more authority over to do so so you're saying the town would have to go the ordinance route that's right zoning route but but they could you know prohibit uh a retail space from being in within you know x number feet from a school right a church or or you know or they you know they can um ring this parcel way over here where you're right right yes yeah i mean and all the different you know kind of planning zoning the things that towns already have in place they you know the any kind of cannabis sales would have to conform to all that yeah okay now terry you mentioned um you had an opiate discussion this past week here in wilson yes we did so tell me more about that what what happened so uh partly attraction because anytime you have food involved it's a uh a drawing card so a number of organizations got together to have this conference and started at six o'clock with a buffet dinner and then started at 6 30 until 8 30 with various presenters talking about um the how addiction works on the on the brain both alcohol marijuana and opioids um we had some breakout two or three breakout times when smaller groups got together to talk about what they're uh what they wanted in town as far as um uh what the issues are in town for all of the things i think uh my table anyway people who are focused more on marijuana than on the opioid uh problems that we have but it was a good facilitated uh discussion uh and the next steps i guess will be uh to have people who are interested in following up on this to get together and work more on the problems you know the wilson rotary was the key sponsor of this particular conference in town and they'll continue i believe there were some good funding i can't remember uh by who for this but it was some good monetary sponsoring of this too for taking care of the food and the facilitators and things like that so you're seeing a good response from the business community as well as the human services community about tackling the problem in wilson well yeah i think that um uh i was actually at this um event as well and and i remember the rotary club here in wilson so you know i think and what i hear from constituents as we are considering um this whole legalization and the and the um sale of uh you know of cannabis is it brings up the idea of prevention and what we can do to educate our youth especially to uh to understand the harm that can come from all kinds of substances from tobacco from alcohol from marijuana from uh from opioids um so that we have prevention going along in on a parallel track and is also well resourced as the regulation of the sales uh and and growth of cannabis um you know we need to have both yeah and several of us in the senate have been really insistent that we wouldn't vote in favor of this regulation of cannabis uh unless we have a really robust prevention program and much of that depends on the communities and and again wilson has been out in the forefront i think in in having this community gathering and and um you know trying to figure out how can we do this how can we help our youth there are other countries island there's the Icelandic model maybe some of your viewers have heard of that but they went from having this astronomical use of of of drugs in their country to hardly any and really yeah and and much of it has been so they were using that as a model for other countries and and they representatives from the country you know have come to speak to people in the united states and we've had some at the state house and it but it's very much a community centered thing it's giving it's making sure that kids have other things to do especially in that crucial three p.m to six p.m uh periods they have after school activities they're in sports they have hobbies they have you know support groups friends other things to do besides use drugs um they um you know and then and then having the parents and other adults in their lives be you know real supports and you know helping them to and education to help them understand the effects on the brain and on their lives of using these substances right that's great yes yeah it's great that wilson's getting out in front of that yeah this sort of brought up during the course of the discussion about whether we should have a community center here you know listen was organized activities especially for the after school uh group as well so and we've been toying with the community center concept for a number of years now and haven't uh come up with a a firm decision on whether they go forward on that I see does wilson have a rec department or yes you do okay so that might be something that pair up with a community center yep nice nice so debbie I understand you are working on a lot of social justice issues at the state house can you give me an example of some of the work you're doing and how far along it's come yes yeah yeah thanks for asking I think it's really important for us as we as the population in Vermont continues to be more and more diverse with refugees and with immigrants and people come from other states that we need to make sure that we and with what's going on and a lot of the other the rest of the country we want to make sure that we communicate clearly to people that we are welcoming and hospitable and you know we want everybody to come so a few things going on so I worked hard on an ethnic studies bill for our schools and that was put together by a coalition of different groups of people of color by folks who have different disabilities by the lgbtq community by the jewish and muslim communities so this has set up a working group to examine our curriculum and make recommendations to the state board of education and to into local school districts about how they can ensure that kids our kids in school are learning about the contributions of these various groups and the benefits of all of us living together and the way that we can respect one another and then I also I'm very excited because I for three years I've sponsored a bill to change columbus day to indigenous people's day and our abnaki community you know has has been advocating for that and I'm very happy to say that I think it was just right just friday that the house passed the senate bill that's great so and we expect the governor to you know to sign it so that's that's really exciting is that is it going to replace columbus day that's right it will replace columbus day okay yeah that's that's impressive that that happened yes yeah it's it's really great lots of cities across the country have done that and alaska and south dakota have done that but we'll uh we'll be another state to to do that yeah well i think we have time for like one more question so terry you're in corrections and institutions in the house and what are some of the corrections issues that you've been working on this year and so uh during the first year of the bayonium corrections issues sort of take a back seat until we get through with the capitol bill and we're through with the capitol bill and we've been working very hard on something called earned good time okay good time existed a long time ago in vermont until about 2005 I think and then it was abandoned because it was very hard to keep track of for prisoners so we're working on an earned good time bill and which we I believe will pass out a committee next week perhaps it's a senate bill that will modify as usual and they will come up with a with a concept that will allow people who are good prisoners to earn a certain amount of time off of their both their minimum and their maximum sentences it will get people out of jail earlier if they're good prisoners which is the concept to have them get back into the community and be wage earners and taxpayers like we all are and so that's one of the ones that we're working on right now we're talking about a presumptive parole bill as well that will probably have some some workings on that'll actually come into fruition next year on that particular thing so that right now we have all sorts of ways that people get on our furloughs and it would make more sense I think to have one concept for parole and go with that usually parole board is our our main focus on that and next week we'll have the parole board folks in to talk about that okay you are both doing some really important work thank you thank you for taking the time to share with us terry and daddy I really appreciate taking the time and best of luck with the rest of the session thank you thank you so much