 Hello there. Hey, how are you? I'm good. How are you doing? Hey, you know, it's Thursday. We're getting closer to you again. Yes, we are. Your audio is a little crackly. I don't know how well you can hear me. I don't know if it's both directions. I've been having issues. Let me try something. Thanks for the heads up. Does that make it any better? I wonder. Well, it's still a little crackly. I literally have a new microphone in my. Tab browser. Complete purchase. Yes. Good idea. I switch to a different mic in the past has worked better. Actually, that's a little bit better. Hey, Josh. We were just debugging microphone issues. Amy said she's having zoom. Hello everyone. Hey. Yeah, I don't, I don't know about you all, but, um, Google Meet has completely stopped working for me this week. Well, that's not ideal. How has it stopped working? Doesn't recognize my devices on alternate calls. Sometimes it doesn't recognize the cameras. Sometimes it doesn't recognize the mic. I had a recent interesting. Where all audio was lagged by 30 seconds. That's helpful. Yeah. So this is. Yeah, I mean. The, um, I've not experienced that before. So I don't even know where to, how to start troubleshooting that for you. I don't know. I've noticed the various platforms seem to cyclically have problems. Computers out of their work. Yeah. Stevens here. Well, there's the little elf. Who lives behind the keyboard. I thought that was you. Oh, wow. Steven, do you fix the patch releases already? I was going to say you brought you fix everything. Great. I'm here all week. Um, we're, we're almost through it. Um, Anago is weird. It's such a weird tool to use for release engineering. 5,000 lines of bash or something. Well, we're glad you were able to. Yay. Happy to be here. Haven't seen your faces in a bit. And sadly, we will not be able to give each other votes next week. Oh, I was like, never mind, never mind. Yeah, there's this big event happening. I don't know if you know about it. Yeah. That's what I was like, wait, no, I like, literally just came rolled off my tongue. And that's what I was like, never mind. I like the at sign behind you. Um, but I, can you space the artwork out a little bit? It's kind of weird. That was my lazy moving tactics of, Oh, there's still nails in the wall. And I have to get these things off the floor. So smart. That's pretty smart. Yeah. Those will not be there permanently. That was. Yeah. Yeah. I will. Two years later. Yeah. I was going to say, I will say work in my garage after we've moved two years, it still hasn't been hung up. Yeah. Right. Right on the other side of my desk or something like 40 artworks awaiting framing. And I have this eight foot trestle table set up with framing materials that have been sitting there for two years now. Same. We have that downstairs as well. Like. New business idea. Somebody just comes in your home. Does it all for you. Frames that hangs it up. And then they leave like little magical fairies in the night. I pay for that. Yeah. I want the. I say they don't do it in the middle of the night, but that exists. It's just very expensive. Oh, really? Yeah. I want, I want the, the person who will attend your zoom call for you. Yes. Is a service I would pay many dollars. I honestly, like I've been, I've been thinking about that as well. Like, hey, like, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Why don't we break up the Kubernetes meetings and y'all go to this one and then like, we all collaborate on what just happened kind of thing. Yeah. That's really it. Yeah. Carolyn's got a good point. They have to actually do your action items too, because otherwise like the sitting in the meeting is actually the easiest part. Yeah. Josh. You can get signed up for all kinds of crazy stuff if they don't actually. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If I was representing you, I'd be like, yeah, Paris will do that. Yeah. Yeah. I ended up president of a club once because I didn't attend the right meeting. Like, wait, did you not know about the club at all? Like what happened? I know what the club, I was a member. I was a member. Okay. And I missed the meeting while they were electing a new president. Oh. Wow. And then one of my friends messaged me and said congratulations. Congratulations for what? It's usually that means you don't get it. Like you get extra work, but you never get a free title. Right. Yep. That's awesome. Josh, you're running the show today, by the way. Okay. Well, then let's get started. Um, we just have the usual suspects here or do we have. No, it looks like the usual suspects. How do you everybody? Um, the, um, um, I'll put your name on there if it's not already. Um, the, um, so, um, okay. Um, let's see. Uh, uh, uh, governance WG updates. Um, the number one next steps with badges. Um, I guess I can speak to this. Um, but I haven't had a chance to sync up with them's. Um, really the next step with the badges is that somebody needs to look at the diligence documents. Look at the, um, um, look at the annual review documents. Um, uh, can somebody actually take notes when I'm talking. I'm, I'm a good secretary, but I'm unable to talk and type at the same time. So, um, sync with the annual review documents, sync with the due diligence documents and that sort of thing and come up with a sort of coherent set of badges based on the data that we're already collecting. Um, as our initial proposal. Um, the, um, so, um, the, uh, that's kind of the big next step. The sort of smaller next step is figuring out what our sort of feedback loop is going to be to validate the badges. Um, the, um, but I kind of want to hold off on that second part until we determine what badges we're going to be doing initially, because I think, I think the what is going to affect the how. Uh, the other thing is that we have two documents that everybody's approved of and we just need to get those merged into PRs. Um, one is, um, the document on, um, growing leaders on, on, um, electing, selecting, assigning leadership. Um, and the other one is a document on what is governance. Um, these are advisory documents. Um, so they just, I should have, I should have time tomorrow to PR and the leadership selection one. Yeah. Cool. To those that we can review. Uh, yeah, I've got the, I've got the leadership selection one open. I'll drop that one in now. Okay. I have a question. Yeah. Like four versions of what is adopted in the notes. Yeah. So if you have comments on leadership selection one, drop those in today and I can have a look at those before I PR it in my morning tomorrow. These are all things on the content list. I'm going to be working next on, um, sort of defining common paperwork for projects. Um, the, um, and, uh, this is material I already have it will link into the template repository. Um, I, you know, because in two ways, one is both links to the existing templates that we have. And then second, um, determining whether or not we need to add some additional templates. Because if we say something is, Hey, this is paperwork. Most projects need them. We don't have a template for it. Oh, I wonder if, um, under governance, we should talk about the issue that George raised with the voting tools. Oh, yeah. That is, that is important. Thank you for remembering that. Yeah. Um, the, um, so this actually came out of the election committee for Kubernetes where we're doing all of this munging of voter lists and getting people's email addresses out of get, et cetera, and saying this is really stupid. A computer ought to be doing this. Um, the, um, I, and, um, um, the suggestion, um, which don't remember the Georgia suggestion or Bob suggestion was, you know, we should just really get the CNCF to hire an intern to create an online version of SIVs that, um, uses external OAuth. Um, and in the case of projects like Kubernetes, we would tie it in with GitHub, but other projects could tie it in with different OAuth sources if they had a reason to. Um, and, and the spec is not complicated. This is honestly something that we could write up with. Um, I, you know, a page long spec plus the SIV source. Um, and, um, and, you know, turn loose some intern on it to work on it for four months. Um, so, so it looks like it was suggested both by Amy and somewhere in that issue. Um, I have not poked at it yet, but just to say, I found out about this, um, approximately like two weeks ago, and I'm very excited about like being able to actually use like a proper system because one of the great things about Opavote is that it will show you how many people have actually voted. What a concept. This tells you how many people voted. Yes. You can say like as the votes come in, I won't tell you when we'll show you what's winning, but it'll, it'll show you like exactly how many of the ballots that are out and how many people have voted, which is very, very nice. And I did not realize that I wanted that feature until I did not have it. Is it an open source? I'm kind of down with talking to the people that make SIVs and saying, how can we help you make this better? Oh, SIVs is not maintained anymore as far as I know. The, the SPI folks patch it periodically when there's some need to do so, but I don't think there's any active developments on it. It just exists. Yeah. I'm like, I'm wondering if it's on sentient or open source it then, right? What, SIVs is open source. It is? Yes. Well, then like, like let's just make that better than shit. The, I'm actually wondering about, but hang on is, is OPA vote like free for open source projects or something? Yeah. And then the other, and then the other questions are things like, like one of the critical features for us is we need people to be able to log in via their GitHub login. Yeah. And if OPA vote doesn't have that feature, it doesn't solve our problem. Definitely don't think they have that feature. I remember looking at them for that. I mean, it's been a while though, and they could have turned that over, but as of last year, they did not have that feature. Yeah. It seems like something a lot of projects would, would want. And like you said, it makes, it makes absolute sense to have it tied into GitHub with, without it, it's just, it just becomes a nightmare. Yeah. And OPA vote is not open source. So we would have no ability to have that feature ourselves. I mean, for that matter, I have some nervousness about any non open source solution for our voting. Just because, you know, if there was, if there was a bug in how it worked, we just wouldn't know. No, clear. And, and given that I'm currently going through bugs and how we determine the list of. Kubernetes voters. I kind of feel like that's also a, an inalienable feature. Oh, the Ben the elder bug. Everyone's favorite bug. Well, it's not actually we have a new one, Lily C. Yeah. Of that class. Yeah. Yeah. Ben is pretty much the, always the first one to bump into that bug. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the thing is like, I, you know, I had no particular reason to know that the capitalization of people's handles in Kubernetes slash org was different from the capitalization in dev stats. And, you know, just didn't occur to me as a problem. And we had this discussion too, because I, like I said, I'm doing this to a Postgres database. I can't figure out a way to have another member of the election commission audit what I'm doing to double check it. And we couldn't figure one out. And then of course that paid dividends. And it's like, it's like, why aren't these tools doing like display name and then also like a normalized ID, right? Of some sort. Right. Anyway, getting back to the proposal. I don't think Opavote unfortunately, I don't think Opavote has the features we need. The, I mean, we can obviously talk to them. But I'm not seeing anything about supporting external authentication. But if they don't have it, I still think it makes sense to talk to CNCF about doing this as a project and then having it, CNCF or LF as a, as a Linux foundation feature for their projects. Because if there's, if there's anything that makes sense for the Linux foundation to supply as a service, it is voting. And I also wonder. Like when we were building the steering committee elections years ago, I also wonder if in your governance guidance that you give to projects that this is actually something that they need to watch out for as they build for these roles. Because in the beginning for us, it was even more ambiguous. And like when you're, when we're building for like roles and different levels of maintainer or whatever it is that, you know, voting members, they need to do things like collect their emails or have voting mechanisms in place where you can contact them and get them. And like the ability, so I guess I'm, what I'm getting at is the ability to contact these said people in the roles that you want them in is so difficult. I think in open source in general, but here it was just so key and apparent and Josh, as you're doing it now, you're like, this sucks. And it's like, yeah, I feel like it's just more apparent when we, when we do activities like this, that we really don't have good contact methods for folks. Yeah. Well, I mean, in the case of Kubernetes, the reason why we want to have authentication via GitHub is that then the contact method issue becomes kind of a non issue. Right. Exactly. So, because I mean, our big problem there is we determine who can vote by their GitHub handle, but then we need to contact them via email. You know, a project that was doing everything via email. Like for example, this was never a problem in Postgres because Postgres does everything by email and has a very complex and self-maintained custom email infrastructure to support this. That is the problem though is that, that projects are inventing their original one-off tools. Yeah. The, anyway, the, that's here. Yeah. So I think, I think we should bring this to proposal to CNCF, even though I'm going to also contact OPA vote at the same time, because I've just realized, I know the person who runs OPA vote from my account. So, he, he and I actually apparently went to Sacramento together. So, the, so I will go ahead and ping him and see whether or not external off is even a likely possibility. I mean that said, I still think something open source created by, you know, someone working for the CNCF would still be a better solution. Among other things, OPA vote costs per election and per voter, and across all of the CNCF projects that would add up to a pretty substantial amount of money, you know, and it would put often put projects in a situation where they ask CNCF to where they have, they have to ask CNCF in order to do an election, and then CNCF might sometimes say no for budget reasons. I would say that speaking about the interim, so you can always, you can always get an interim working with, we are the community bridge, and this would be a great community bridge project. Of course, so welcome to, to start working on this, so you're welcome to put your proposal late August, so Post-Cube Con will launch another round, and that's it. So you can even try that as Kubernetes project, because it's primarily for the Kubernetes project needs, and if you want to, you can scale it later. There's to be estimated time for the interim to work on the regular project is around three months, so hopefully that should be fine if not so we can figure something else. But community bridge probably is the easiest way to handle that fiscally, and in a way of finding someone to handle the task. Yeah, that seems fine, but the, the other part of this that I want to push through this thing is the idea that when we have something CNCF would officially adopt it as a thing that's available for CNCF projects if they want to use it, just as a project for Kubernetes. Yeah, we can discuss it later, but again, like considering directly the question on the hiring and interim and development substance, so community bridge is the easiest way to do it. Okay, well if you can help me through the community bridge paperwork for creating an internship opportunity, I and I'll think would anybody else here be interested in being a mentor for this, I mean I think I have to be on it because I think I'm probably the only one in our SIG who can still read Pearl, but my Pearl or someone else's Pearl? Someone else's Pearl, and I think SIVS was originally written for Pearl 5.1, so it's a little gnarly. I'm clutching my Pearls about that. I'm here all week. You said you weren't even going to be here, what's wrong with you? Yeah. I can go. So we can discuss it later, post-KipCon, we're going to launch another next round of community bridge, so we may definitely have something there. So let's just chat after that, after the next week. And I'm happy to help you all with all the onboarding instructions on how to get started as a mentor and do everything that is needed. Did we roll a service desk issue, or is it sufficient to just have that GitHub issue? It's sufficient to have a GitHub issue. If you want something more than just a community bridge in terms of service desk, the ticket will be required, but if you find we're just going to the community bridge line, so we have the mentoring repo under the CNSF organization where we track all the proposals. So I'll open the Q3, Q4 round soon, and you'll be able to submit your formal proposals. So it's done similarly to that way, how people are proposing the Google Center for Proposals, for example. So everything is public, you can just propose, you can just put a full request there with your ideas, and that's it. I'll try to find some links now, I'm sure, here, in the chat, not to take an hour time. Okay. So, just adding an action item for me. Okay. So given that, let us move on to contributor growth. So Carolyn, Dawn. I missed last meeting, so hopefully someone who's there can speak to it. I don't actually go to the contributor growth meetings, I just picked up the project health thing, because that's what I do. I was there, but Dawn, I want you to talk about your project health thing, so you've been putting in a ton of work there. So you start first. Yeah, I'm happy to. So the links in the, links in the doc, yeah, basically I went through and I picked some measurements that, so the idea behind this doc, let's just start at the beginning, was to get people away from thinking that stars and forks measure project health, because they don't, they're vanity, popularity metrics, they're interesting, but not from a health perspective. So the whole purpose of this doc was try to get people thinking about what actually matters when it comes to project health and why it matters. So certainly in one doc, we're not going to have a comprehensive all of the things you can measure. So what I try to focus on were the things that I thought was the most important with an eye towards helping people understand why it might be important to measure for their particular project. And then I added a big disclaimer kind of towards, towards the top here to address a lot of the comments in the, you know, throughout the, the doc about how, you know, they're not one size fits all there. The dashboards aren't going to be right. There are going to be issues with the data. So I tried to address that there. And I also included it at the very bottom as well. So I don't know how much people want to talk about this, but I would encourage you to have a look if you wanted to provide some feedback today. I will probably try to PR this tomorrow, but it's basically broken down into a bunch of types of metrics with ideas and examples for how you might want to measure it along with some best practices at the bottom. That's all I had. I'm down for you to PR this in and do, and have us do comments and do like a mailing list call for comments. If you want to do that. Yeah, sure. That sounds good. I like anything. I sort of think it's better to get the doc out so that people can use it and then we can, we can iterate on it and continue to improve it over time. Yeah. Josh, you're on mute. I see your lips moving. From my perspective, there's enough there that we could go ahead and PR it. We'll do. Yeah, I'll try to get to that tomorrow. And then the meeting on Tuesday was a small meeting. Toby came. It was a new contributor added a ton of value, actually added some issues about the idea of recognizing contributors. So for instance, how some projects do contributor recognition at release, like either in the changelog or on some kind of website or something along those lines, just pretty much like guidance around how to end ways, best practices, ideas, et cetera for recognizing contributors. So that's an issue if anybody is interested in picking up to be set in GitHub or if you just have something to add as far as stuff that you think works or stuff that you've seen added to that issue as well. Container D, the project came by. They are looking for some guidance and they're willing to schedule a dedicated project meeting for us. They would like to talk about how to set up roles, for instance, security advisors, reviewers, different types of roles, and they're looking for guidance there. I'm coordinating with Derek McGowan, one of their maintainers. We haven't gotten very far yet, but when we have dates, we'll do like a doodle and I'll send them to the governance group as well as the contributor strategy group to see what makes sense on a course of action on how we can best help the Container D crew. They're also potentially looking at these as on ramps into the project as well. So obviously looking at Kubernetes with the release team and some of the other team kind of things that we have that create entries into contributions for Container D. So it was very cool to have a project there though. I was like, hey, Derek, I work with you. What are you doing here? So it's cool. I feel like the outreach that we're doing is slowly but steady working. And that's also just a side note to all of y'all to continue with the outreach as well. But that was pretty much it. We also just did just a general, wow, we still have a lot more work to do, stand up, but that was pretty much it. OK. So we've got, that sounds good. At some point, do we need to worry about having some kind of clearinghouse thing for requests? I mean, we get a certain number of requests from projects. We've been dealing with them ad hoc. I was just going to say. Is ad hoc still working? Yeah, OK. Yeah, I'm going to finish you. OK, cool. And we probably want a template for that. So yeah, I owe a issue and I owe after that a doodle. Because I said, oh, we can come to one of your community meetings or whatever. And they're like, no, no, no, no, let's set up something for us to dig deep. So maintainers and us. So should they just come to one of our meetings then? Well, I mean, I think that's, you know, they said that as well. So yeah, because I mean, we'll coordinate that. Like I said, I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Yeah, because I think our intent was was like the alternating meetings. We'd have a kind of drop by slot. I feel like if the drop by slot is going to be a real thing, we need to somehow advertise it differently. I thought we advertised according to the outreach that the whole dang thing is just because we were trying to get people to just drop in period. Yeah, I think we're going to hit the the webs and the twitters and all the things heavier. I think we've got like a, you know, the core group, but getting more maintainers from different projects would be cool. OK. I think sometimes it feels weird to drop into someone else's meeting and not be on the agenda and just kind of like agenda bomb them. Yeah, OK, we're going to talk about my rando thing. So I think sometimes maybe if we say like it's totally OK, like we have time carved out in our agenda for you to come and talk about whatever that may help. Another option is to explicitly call them office hours because it's hard when people like you said, I always I always feel sort of guilty like dropping in on somebody else's project meeting with my own agenda to ask a bunch of questions that's more appropriate for an office hours. We did that like once a month or something. And I mean, if we want something of a structure like office hours is good, but also like drop into like actually drop yourself onto the agenda, right? So like shoot a note to the list, say like, hey, is it cool that we drop by and food date and then put up actually agenda items that you want to discuss, right? That way there's some structure around it before we get started. I've also just been going to them, which I know isn't sustainable. I know I'm already getting eye rolls. But yeah, I've been going to some community meetings and stuff like that. Just just try to throw a break across the. Yeah, I think that's I think it's likely to be a lot more successful. Like there are the requests for help that I've gotten and I've generally gotten because I'm a member of the project ecosystem already. Either because of Red Hat or because, you know, it's in technology area. I'm involved in so. But even if we're going to do, say, an official once a month office hours, I think we would want to go to ping people and individual projects and and remind them of it. Yeah, I feel like some projects are so water right now. They're not hearing what we're putting out. So by going directly to them, maybe they're more likely to take advantage. Oh, totally. And after all, the projects who need our help the most are the projects that do not have assigned specifically assigned administrative staff. Yeah, this is why I want to maintain our circle. The start's so bad. So speaking of which, let's talk about me in your circle. I'm a great takeaway. Oh, I'm sorry. It's me say something. I had a lag. I apologize. There was like a weird lag. OK, go. I just want I didn't want to make I didn't want to cut anybody off. So maintainers circle. I was bouncing some ideas around with Karen about the idea of overemphasizing that the first one is going to be a light session just to get everybody together and in the mode of getting together. So thinking about something called meals with maintainers so that it's lighter and people are OK with, you know, bringing a bite to eat or something like that. And then that also gives us kind of like the OK to book during, like, for instance, 12 p.m. Pacific time. So folks understand that it's, you know, a casual of nature thing. Thinking of launching that one of the first two weeks of September and then KubeCon November would have some kind of a much larger show. And then idea after KubeCon November would be to have at least the cadence be once a month. And then, obviously, further cadence be dictated from the members. So that's where we are with maintainers circle right now. We already have at least three topics in the queue, including inclusive language and I know Steven's group, the working group for naming and Kubernetes has already kicked up. So in a couple of months, we'll actually have probably some guidance from that group as well for that meeting. And that's really it. I have not made any progress on discussion around the online identity of the thing, meaning maintainers.cncf.io, contributors.cncf.io. I can't even remember where we left it off, honestly. I think it was, let's do contributors.cncf.io. And then how's the maintainers circle stuff under there? Does anybody remember where we left off with that one? Yeah, I don't remember either. Time, what is time? I don't think we had any file agreement. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it was file the service desk ticket. Yes, service desk always has a way of just popping up. Yeah, that's right. I need to follow service desk ticket. Um, because I think that would be, I think that would be a really good goal for us to have for launch for like a KubeCon November would be to launch like a contributors.cncf.io and then have like the project templates and the maintainer circle and, you know, a link to the TOC maintainers public thing, and, you know, whatever else. You said November, right? Yeah, OK, just making sure. Yeah, no, not in two weeks. Yeah, I can barely file an issue in two weeks, little. Also, it's not two weeks. Yeah, yeah, it's like. Oh, yeah, it's in like two days. It's very soon. Yeah. I know, two days, I meant like the whole next two weeks is going to be like, yeah, anyway, so it's for the meals for maintainers or meals with maintainers. Is that does that intended to be a one time thing? No, I mean, I think that would be like the theme of the whole thing because I I like I don't even have lunch scheduled on on my calendar. And like, I don't want to meeting during the assumed lunch time that people normally have. Yeah, one o'clock, then. I don't even want to discuss when I have lunch. What is lunch, really? It's optional. What is lunch? Yeah, you know, it's like you said 12 o'clock PT and I immediately winced because like it's so San Francisco Pacific Time Zone Center that it's really off putting. Well, I did that was a example that like I'm going to like do a doodle and like we're going to throw a doodle out and like get people's preferred times. That was a literal example. I it also could be 6 p.m. PT for dinner for Pacific. It could be and then late night meal for someone else. It could that mean it could be breakfast in their time zone. It could be lunch in their time zone. That's what I meant by being inclusive, by being inclusive of the fact that everybody's probably on the line, eating some kind of meal. Like. I. The problem is it's just going to be another meeting if we don't necessarily have a theme to it, like it's just going to be. Oh, it's just a bunch of CNCF maintainers getting together and having another Zoom meeting. So that's why I'm just like thinking from the agenda item. It would be everybody gets everybody gets together. We do some kind of icebreaker. We chat, we get, you know, we do whatever we either have a speaker or don't. But then at that point in time, we all do breakout rooms. So then we would use the Zoom feature to do breakout rooms and then have much smaller groups to do discussion topics. So that's kind of what I'm thinking about as far as like what what the composition would look like of kind of like the first meeting. And then there, like I would hope that the maintainers would kind of want us to shape it in the way that they want it. So I like everything with the meal thing. I think like, let's see what time shake out and after we we doodle it, but I like the structure overall. Just not the having to be on a call and eating. OK, well, then I can totally go back to maintainer circle. I have people excited to go, by the way. I was talking to the home maintainers and was pumping it up because they're having trouble promoting and finding more maintainers and contributors and people talking about some of the troubles they've been having with like people camping and being jerks in their issue queue and stuff like that. And I'm like, oh, this is perfect. Let's talk about this in maintainer circle. So we're we have people excited to start is all I want to say. I wanted to kick this up like a week ago, but everybody was like, no, cube con. And then I was like, y'all, like, oh, my God, it's just going to be like the longest launch of my life right now. Six months launch because we've already had two cube cons. And like, yeah, I'm just ready to launch this. Yeah. I'm ready to go. But yeah, I'm going to submit a service test ticket and talk about building of contributors dot cncf.io and get started there. See what happens. But that's it. So my God, I see that last one on our agenda, but it looks like we already talked about it. We did. Yeah. OK, we've got that. We've got those plans. I actually do have one question here. And I guess the question, what's the deadline for submitting cncf SIG sessions for November? Not yet. Not yet. OK. September 13th. OK. September 13th. Yeah. If if I can just since we're not having a governance meeting next week, if I could just April and Dawn here right now, does it make sense to submit one? I was thinking of submitting one that would actually be a sort of short workshoppy thing on, you know, creating governance for your project. Yeah, that'd be awesome. OK. I'd be down for that. I submit to what? I missed that part. For November, for KubeCon November, I see in CFSIGs and working groups can. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And I was thinking of doing one that was specifically a how to session about creating governance for your project. Yeah, no, that sounds good. No, my invite for my KubeCon Amsterdam invite came in and I was trying to look at that and make sure that I had it on my calendar. Yeah. And I got I got distracted and stopped listening just when you said my name. Yeah, OK. But yeah, if we have until September 13th, then we will have another governance meeting to work out details of that. So. It would be cool if we could have more curated sessions on the maintainer track about topics that maintainers want to hear. Like I've been trying. I've been talking to the events folks about this for a couple of years now where it's like, let's have a contributor summit, but the maintainer track. So obviously still do deep dives and intros, but things like governance workshops and how to recruit contributors and burnout and for everyone, right? Not just necessarily like the Kubernetes maintainers that we that we service that content for. So I'm wondering if we should think about it like that, too. That'd be great. Good. See what that works, though. Like it would just be a mega maintainer track. Well, I'm just saying, like, if the process right now is that each, you know, project, whatever gets one session, we'd have to sweet talk Amy into. Helping convince that we need more sessions. No. So I, you know, I know a guy. So my thing about this is really like we are so limited on the sessions that we can offer for virtual anyways. So do the best one. I love you all, but one. Well, and one thing also, Kara, is like, you know, that's still. Well, like it's still a great idea. It doesn't have to happen within the coupon. We could easily use the CNCF like webinars and other stuff and do that same kind of stuff, especially since everything's a virtual these days. Like we don't have to be constricted by the week of coupon. Well, if you want, if you want to do it in conference format, I have a platform available. That's cool. Well, I thought the deal was for us to have a maintainers circle during KubeCon and because a ton of maintainers have requested it. And the reason that I heard that we shouldn't have one this time was because that would be seen as competing against KubeCon. So is it competing or not? Because if we do it like as a one off in Boston, then I'll be seen as competing with KubeCon and not a part of KubeCon when the maintainers come to us and not to the main show. So what's being suggested like the semi equivalent of like a contributor summit type thing except it's not yet, except it's just on a maintainer track. And I'm just saying I want to like on that same maintainer track, it would be cool to have maintainer circles or a maintainer circle event. I would I would say and I would say a talk event. But given what I've heard about space, we're probably not going to swing multiple things. So, I mean, it's OK if we have maintainer content that's not at KubeCon, like y'all would be OK with that? I mean, I would be OK with that. I don't know what you mean by I mean, I literally would have stood up the maintainer circle next week. Literally, I asked about this a couple of weeks ago. I said, hey, let me stand up the maintainer circle during the week of KubeCon so that we can ride KubeCon. And everybody was like, no, don't do that. That takes away from KubeCon. I mean, given that everything I. So mixed feelings given that confused as to. I think we want to do special maintainer content that we don't try to tie it into the week of KubeCon. I mean, yeah, like online events are so exhausting as it is, like just more I'm exhausted thinking about multiple events happening in concert personally. And let's we have like eight minutes like what we can. Do you want to async it a little bit, Paris? I guess my point is when when when is it appropriate to have a maintainer circle? Because if we can't have it during KubeCon, because all I have been asked so many times from maintainers to have a contributor summit for CNCF during KubeCon. Like people are already there. They're already together. They want to well and talk. But they're not this time, right? Right. So since it's virtual, I think that frees us up from that constraint. Like. You could do it whenever. Yeah, just this week then. That's why I'm like, I don't know why why we made it. So so next week I don't. Yeah, yeah. So next week we've got KubeCon and then between that and the next KubeCon. Let's let's do it soon. I mean, we're going to. But the second one was going to I was planning it for it to be November at KubeCon. So that's why I'm just like, all right. It's. It's days and days of webinars that add another meeting. I'm going to kick it off right at the beginning of September. I mean, everybody's on holiday right now because it's August. I think that and everybody's got KubeCon and then we've got a week to recover from KubeCon. I think early September, like once people are yeah, after holidays, do we have can we pull together the content by then? Yes, I guess versus OK, if, you know, if you want a platform, I believe. We've signed our blanket contract. We as in Red Hat with Hopin to and I have a budget for hosting community events. So that is available. If the Red Hat logo is everywhere. I don't think so. I don't think so. One of the one of the complaint, one of the complaints that the Red Hat marketing people had about Hopin to is that our logo is not everywhere. So I mean, I think if it's even in one spot, it would be. Yeah, OK, well, I can look into that. Yeah, the I mean, I was just going to use Zoom and breakout rooms. If you think that can work, if well, if you can do better, let's do it. Yeah. I mean, we're also on a CNCF call. So yeah, if there are resources to. I just I I happen to. So I I have. Frequent chats with Nancy, who's who's in charge of of running Kubecon. All the things, yes. And this is why I didn't even really necessarily consider asking CNCF for info for this, because I happen to know what she's struggling with right now. Um, the so. It turns out of the weight, like a hot, like two weeks, we might have more bandwidth. I do. Yeah. So if you come like with an idea in two weeks, perhaps like we might be able to actually, like, you know, have conversations about that. Who knew? Yeah, so maybe we ask, right. Yeah, maybe the thing is we can also ask CNCF after Kubecon. The thing is we can plan this, we can set a date, right? We have the hop into platform. You know, that I can contribute. So we know we can host it, even if CNCF does not have a way to host it. So and then we can wait and ask CNCF after Kubecon, whether or not they have a way to host it. So let's file a service test ticket about the request and and then anything else that happens, whether it's before or after Kubecon, well, we'll take it from there. That's perfect. It's at least on our radar. And so we can start like figuring out what details need to be, as well as timelines. Because one other thing that I'm kind of concerned about is as we get past like the North America event, we're coming real close into the holidays. So, you know, just have to think about it, but super important for later. Yeah, go team. I have a small housekeeping question to just seek. So notice that the list of chairs has not been updated. I assume that we're going to step down as emeritus and Stephen was nominated as a chair. And I assume that it was uploaded. Which list? Because I updated it. In the read me of the, of the second to the first trade. Oh, cool. All right. How do we miss that? Yeah. Yeah, I'll get to it. Yeah, I guess I'll admit that what I did was I actually, I fixed Stephen's actual permissions rather than the documentation. Okay. Perfect. Can do, can do. Awesome. Thanks for that. Okay. Okay. Thanks. Do we have anything else before, in the three minutes before we close this out? Oh, I had one thing. So I'm going to be doing KubeCon as well, which means I'm not sure. I have it in me to do the whole day and then also do the working group next week. So... It should not be murdered. I hear you guys. I told all those things. Yeah. You're also not doing the governance next week. I believe I have murdered everything. Let me know if something is on the calendar and it should not be, but let me look down like they're all dead. Amy's feeling a little violent apparently. No, not at all. It's all about like, I want your double booked to be your own fault, not like our fault for like the meetings that we would always have. That's what I want. Yeah. It's just the whole murdered thing. And I just, maybe there's some, you know, progression. I don't know. It's all dead. It's a cleanse. It's a good old calendar. But no, more seriously, if you see a meeting on there for next week, it should not be there. I've gone through most of the things. No, it's gone. I see it's gone now. Yeah. That's fine. Thank you for the ping. I feel like I took care of this yesterday, but you know, there's always something. No, we're good. I blame caching. Sure. To be fair, calendaring is one of the hard problems still. So who knew? Oh, it is. I hate it. Yeah. The, I, right. I blame Microsoft, but Google has a lot to answer for there too. Yeah, VMware migrated our pivotal calendars, Google calendars to VMware calendars. And I literally, that was months ago. And I still spent 45 minutes today on a call with our executive assistant trying to sort out why I have phantom meetings on my calendars. And not for the meeting. Do you love it? Do you love it? It's amazing. It's the updated invitation with note, canceled, updated, removed. And you're like, what am I doing with the like, am I going? Do I go? Yeah. Yeah. I literally have phantom meetings on my calendars that have been canceled ages ago and still what they won't disappear off my calendar will not go away. Just got to blow up email. No more email. I did. Yeah, I just blew up today. Yeah, we need, I just feel like I need the Google calendar. I murdered them as Amy would say. I, I just feel like I need the Google calendar equivalent of the Twitter thing, right? Where you delete and recreate your account in order to cancel all of your followers and followers. Sometimes I want to like delete my Google calendar account. It's like, where's the soft block for all of my meetings? Yes. Yeah. And with all of our murder notes, I think I, I think that's it. We are at time. Yeah. On that note. Yeah. Okay. Helping. Later, y'all. See ya. Bye, everybody. Have a good day. Bye.