 Welcome back to Think Tech. This is Life in the Law here on Wednesday at 1 p.m. and today's show is going to involve my vice president and chief operating officer for Think Tech Hawaii, Carol Monli. Hi Carol. Hi Jay. Very important person around here and our host Marianne Sasaki for Life in the Law. Hi Marianne. Hi Jay. She's an attorney. We're all attorneys and that's the point of the show. We're calling this Hawaii the next chapter for lawyers because it seems to be an intersection of sorts, that the lawyers come here and that people here are interested in what the lawyers are doing and so it's a confluence. And it reminds me actually of the Hawaii Judiciary Museum. You know about that. Yeah. It's in the Supreme Court building. Yeah. Judiciary History Museum I think it's full. Okay and and the lesson of the Hawaii Judiciary History Museum is that the that Hawaii's history is an intersection with law. Law is a very important part of the development of the state and law is likewise a very important part since we follow the state. It's a very important part of Think Tech and so we have lawyers coming, going. Many of our hosts are lawyers. We have lawyers as guests all the time. We cover gee whiz, every kind of area of practice and every area of practice involves some kind of top-down news. So law and the way the state works, maybe the way the world works these days, you know it's our beat, it's our coverage. Okay and I want to explore on the first part of the show what it is to be a lawyer, what skills the lawyer develops, what attitudes the lawyer has and whether they're transportable and whether when you transport them they work the same way they worked before. So Carol you were a lawyer for many years. Many years. You're a retired lawyer now but you've been you've had a legal career, a legal career in practicing as corporate counsel in the law school as being the associate dean of the law school for many years and now at Think Tech which is also kind of kind of legal. So can you talk about the progression of your own career? Oh just briefly yes. Well as you said I've been in practice in LA and in Hawaii. I've been in corporate work as a corporate attorney and I've been a law professor teaching at UH law school and administrator as the associate dean but I also had a broad and I continue to have a broad interest in education in general. I used to be a teacher in grade schools and high schools and also in the nonprofit world. So I think what I bring to Think Tech is a combination of all those interests and skills and can apply them to Think Tech which is our goal is to promote civic engagement, you know create public awareness but in every field and in every area that touches our community and so by having that broad exposure I think is helpful but the skill sets that I think I bring is as as a trained lawyer as we all are is of course in law school for three years we learn to of course analyze to apply facts to understand the law but also to apply the law to certain situations but being curious about a broader set of circumstances that will then therefore affect whether it's a client or a student how all of those different experiences and and education can be applied to those situations and so I like to think that my background actually enhances what we can do at Think Tech. Yeah and it goes also for the point that law is more than a profession it's a business sector it's an industry and if you practice whatever way you practice you learn at least part of that industry and one of the reasons that I feel that engagement lateral hires ours and law firms very valuable because those people have you know life experience they have experience in the community and business and it helps them a lot that's they're more valuable to in my view to a law firm than somebody straight out of school okay now you've had a different kind of career talk about your career. Well I I've practiced privately from in large firms and small since I graduated from law school and you know I was thinking about what you were saying Carol about civic awareness I think a component of being a lawyer is being civically aware because we're officers of the court you know we're actually public figures in some sense even when we're in private practice we have a code of ethics and so um and the country was sort of founded by lawyers right so we sort of it's it's we're a country of laws so lawyers hold a very special place I think in civic awareness and civic duty in order to make our society better I just think I do I even though I'm a private lawyer I'm a corporate lawyer I do trust in the states I don't have any public interest you know backgrounds or anything but I feel an obligation to the society to make it better I just do. Not all lawyers have that sense of obligation to society then they've lost it because you know they teach it to you in law school I mean you study constitutional law it's hard not to be engaged in the constitution. It's true it's true but I mean there's one branch in the road is where you you study constitutional law you even do well on it and then you forget all about it because it doesn't affect your life or your practice. How many constitutional cases have you had? Uh well you know I haven't had myself I haven't had too many constitutional cases but I think of due process a lot and in fact they talked about due process yesterday with respect to a board meeting and I told the board that they that their members of this nonprofit were entitled to due process so um I mean I bring that kind of like you know ramrod ethical I do it's hard I mean maybe I won't make it that's why I won't make lots of money ever in my life because I don't view it as a business I view it as like a calling that you know calling this is very important but going to Carol's list of skills a sort of an a ditty bag an inventory of skills what what what skills do you have that you need to have and that define you? I have excellent analytic skills which were honed in law school because in law school they teach you to look at the law from both sides or look at a case from both sides so I could always put myself in the other person's position now where you didn't used to be able to I just always used to think well my position is right but I don't always think that way anymore and um good writing is a very important part of being a good lawyer because you have to be persuasive no matter what you're writing and and clear yeah and clear and hopefully concise yes yeah which is not an easy task actually to be all those things at once right? So Carol I mean yes it's valuable to have these skills the skills that you have and skills that Mary Ann has but what's special about the expectations the operation of think tech that makes those skills particularly important here? Well we we are a business we are a non-profit so I think that as lawyers and of course Jay is a practicing lawyer who practiced for how many years in Hawaii? I'll tell you how to answer that question approximately something over something around 35 or 40 years. 35 or 40 years so from a technical point of view of course we both all of us understand the requirements in terms of establishing the organization of making sure that we have our employment situation set up our taxes set up our non-profit status clean and things like that are lease negotiating a lease. But wouldn't they be in any non-profit and wouldn't many of them be useful in any business? Oh absolutely but in some businesses they'd have to actually hire outside counselors. Yeah not many non-profits are so organized I mean they're really not. And as I will toot our own horn all of us do what we do without pay yeah right we are you're a host who comes in regularly you bring in guests Jay and I have done work for how many years have you been working you founded think tech but so many years ago 2001 right 16 17 years ago so we are in a position that we can return to the community through think tech these skill sets that we have and apply them in a broader situation but can I follow up on something you mentioned which is I always think of a law degree and of course when I was at the law school I often talked to incoming students or people who are interested in studying the laws why why would you want to go to law school why should someone get a law degree and I always say that a law degree is actually value-added it does not mean that you're going to become another Perry Mason or go to court and you know win that big case because a law degree ends up helping in so many different professions whether it's business or law or the nonprofit sector or even entertainment or the media and I'm just thinking now because of the current situation in the media that Kellyanne Conway has a law degree of course Michelle Obama and Hillary Clinton have law degrees Samantha Guthrie on today's show has a law degree you know there's so many women and men of course but I'm just thinking the women because women don't people don't typically associate women as having law degrees because as we know it's a fairly new phenomenon yeah even though we're more than half of the law students now now fine way in my day no right a small fraction you were 10% or less right when I went to law school in the 70s there were 15% women 15 now is over 50 yeah so so a law degree is value-added in so many different professions because it teaches you how to think and write you know when I when I went to law school and then I date myself too much here I graduated law school we know it was your birthday though recently Jay graduated law school 40 40 48 years no more almost 50 years 52 years ago yeah I was going to say 52 years ago it seems like yesterday but when we when we graduated the idea of not practicing was abhorrent you put all that time and money into studying law and all that midnight oil the stress and strain it's not easy nobody will ever say law school is easy or fun you know maybe college but not law school and so the idea then about not practicing law was you know that was not an option if you went that far you had to practice law but it was clear what you said and that is that it gave you skills you could use in any in any walk of life in any way because you had to engage in a in a society was becoming more complex in a society especially in this country that is built on law the whole enchilada is built on right exactly so it helps you in every way but we didn't think of that then since then I think a lot of people have gone to law school and have had the benefit of all that reading and analysis and discussion discussion a big part of it and they decided not to practice law or they went through non-profits or you know public public causes of one kind or another and it was not really what the classical model was not not in my day anyway and so and so you have lawyers out there you know huge numbers of lawyers I think it's the prize not to practice actually you know I mean it's it's a prize not to can you spot them when they don't tell you I see that analytical ability I you can tell a lawyer you can I don't know you can tell a lawyer but the thing is now the prize really isn't to practice the prize is becoming an executive or a leader of you know industry of some kind or creative person that's I mean that nobody wants to practice anymore and because it's a grind I mean it's really hard you have to do it constantly you always have to worry about billable hours you always have to worry about satisfying the client who you know often they're unsatisfiable so it's a it's a very hard job so there's other things that are much more enticing than practicing law you know and so people do it they become president that's that's far more enticing than practicing law yeah now now you're a host just a minute before we go to the break but you're a host and you bring certain skills and I want to talk about this in the next part of the show do the job of host and that means engaging with people asking them questions listening to their answers you know interpreting the world around us in the context of this one-on-one or one-on-two kind of crucible how does practicing law how does law school practicing law and litigation how those things improve your ability to do hosting do you want the answer or should we wait till the break oh let's make it a cliff hanger okay that's a cliffhanger we love cliffhangers because then we can take a break we'll take a short break that's Mary Ann Sasaki and Carol Montelie will be right back aloha everybody my name is Mark Shklav I'd like you to join me for my program law across the sea on thinktech hawaii.com aloha aloha I'm Richard Emory I'm with co-host Jane Sugimura of condo insider Hawaii's weekly show about association living the purpose of these videos is to educate board members and condo residents about issues relating to association living we hope they're helpful and that they assist in resolving problems that affect the relationship between boards and their residents each week thursday at three p.m. we bring you exciting guests industry experts who for free will share their advice about how to make your association a better place to live and answer a lot of very interesting questions aloha we hope you'll tune in back one bingo we're back you should have been around during the break we're really getting into thinking of it now okay so you go to law school you get out and we have to go back to your question of course we go to law school you get out and you can get a job so you have options one is you can go home live with your parents and drive their car well that wasn't an option for me but I suppose yes it was an option okay the other is you can find some other kind of job any job you know don't say mcdonald's but although that pays relatively well especially if you increase the minimum wage which is not a political show okay so the the question is you get out of school and you can't can't find a job in a in the classical model law firm or even government law firm but as I said there are many students now many law schools promote the fact that they are training public interest lawyers or lawyers who are going into the corporate field or maybe politics who are not going to be interested in going the tradition traditional route of law practice that's true that's true yeah the interesting thing is if you go that route you're taking skills that could flower this way and they do and you can and they get narrow yeah that's right that's right the most you know the most pristine classical way to express yourself through a law degree they go practice law in the old-fashioned way and I think a lot of lawyers you know who go down the narrow paths of corporate or something really highly specialized public interest law environmental law good example yeah I mean in an organization an institutional organization they narrow their career possibilities because when they finish it's an interesting question as to whether the classical law firm is going to see them as more valuable less valuable yes specialization in a way is a disservice to oneself or maybe this a service to your firm and you may be very productive for your firm but if you really narrow yourself down to one area that definitely limits your options in terms of what what you could possibly do you know and law firms may not be interested in you because you're narrow and they want to may I say they're renaissance lawyer right on the other hand though you have let's say a specialist who's been in environmental law maybe becomes even a partner in a private firm that person goes out and then starts or becomes very involved in a public interest organization and may end up being the leader the CEO the president who ends up bringing lots of visibility and money to an organization that otherwise it may have been floundering without the leadership of somebody with a law degree isn't that what we are carol yes that is exactly what we are public interest organization our goal practicing law but it's practicing public interest right explain well if anybody takes the time to look through our archives and our think-tip website and just see that we run 35 shows a week on 35 different topics a week relating to everything every culture technology energy education farming you name it drones you know driverless cars quality we could go on but what our goal is for each of those half-hour shows is to inform the public to create an engagement and awareness that may not have been there already may not have been there before and that we do that through the use of these wonderful hosts these wonderful volunteers who have experience in background and who volunteer their time to come to think tech to line up guests to inform the public and to give the audience an opportunity to hear something to hear a perspective to hear information to engage and to express what maria was talking about earlier their obligation to society right to actually help society the common good yeah when you asked about why go to law school you know i think you know i'm from an immigrant family and i and i think there was a component of becoming a better citizen you know i mean there's this notion of being a good citizen and participating in in in this in civil society is you know it's kind of been lost but it's this kind of noble immigrants have it still they they understand the united states and the meaning of the united state better than a lot of people who've been here for hundreds of years it's true right so you know i mean i viewed it as a way to really become part of america really become part of the united states i'm going to become a lawyer i'm going to be a full-fledged citizen i'm going to do my duties to the to the republic okay now you remember we had a cliffhanger i don't forget that right stuff yeah and we were talking about the skills that you have had through law school and and through your classical you know practice of law what skills help you in being a host and how much do they help you well i think you know one important thing is that you must engender trust in your client your client must be able to trust you to make the best decisions possible on their behalf and i think you must engender trust as a host as well so that the guest feels free and liberated to express their opinions if they trust you and go with you you can go anywhere you know and that's i that's i don't know if they teach that law school i guess they they really kind of don't but you learn that in practicing that that um your reputation and your uh willingness to be open-minded and your willingness to help it's it's what makes your clients trust you you know and it's what makes the guest trust you too you know how about forming questions well i you know i've always been able to do that i'm an italian they're curious okay it's ethnic it's cultural and it's a lawyer's thing but forming questions is a critical part of this whole the whole deal everything around here it's about forming questions and being curious and opening issues up and thoughts up that you wouldn't otherwise hear about and listening and listening to the answers it's the sausage theory you know the question begets the answer that's right the next question that's why you don't have to have it you shouldn't have it all written down you should follow you know where the crucible goes i think that makes it more interesting uh watching for sure i mean uh people always say at the ends of the show that was really fun or that went really fast and it's because it's interesting because we're engaged we're in great we're engaged in the moment we want to be in the moment you didn't realize that you're at the wrong end of a deposition here i know i sort of did i was like oh my god they i'm here in the middle of two both of them and we are we also have in addition to life in the law which marianne hosts we have uh governor john why hey well of course is a lawyer who used to practice um and we have other shows that marx love who does a great show on international law um we've had other shows maybe you can remind me of some of the other shows we've had that have been law related oh we've had uh education it's a law related and environment for sure is law related of course and we've had business shows lots of business shows that are law related and sometimes in pop lawyers i mean it's not just the hosts don't you agree it's it's the guests we have an enormous number of lawyers who come through here on every area immigration comes to mind number of immigration lawyers uh labor lawyers criminal lawyers criminal lawyers he was a great guest matrimonial lawyers i mean all walks of life and nonprofits and i always think beyond just them being lawyers it's the organization that i'm interested in because it's a law related uh community an organization that reaches out into the community to serve certain populations whether it's the disabled or whether it's immigrants or whether it's women who have suffered from domestic violence but who all need law legal services and those are the people who then can hear and listen and engage in our show and inform the public about these extraordinary really important issues you never have the opportunity to see this kind of engagement this kind of interaction because it it's not just what we say or what our guests say it's the whole environment of the conversation it teaches you so much about our world today a world of laws but one of the things i wanted to ask you about was diane de sierto yes and the reason i want to ask about that because it opens a whole new area of this conversation she's a lawyer she's an international lawyer she's from the philippines but she i think she teaches on the mainland is it well she has been at uh law school for for a few years and she's a graduate of yale and i think this year she's at stanford she's a very prominent international lawyer from philippines really talented brilliant great range of ideas and anyway the point the point i make is that how can you possibly i mean i suppose some journalists can do this but how can you possibly engage with diane de sierto about international law issues that are front page top of the line most important cerebral issues in in in humanity right now how can you gauge with her unless you can understand something about international law and being a lawyer really helps you get into that and and she's not the only one but i i think of her as a you know the kind of the kind of world-class guests that we can get on think tech and use our skills or you know our orientation to to be in the crucible with her you know we can actually have that conversation with her she's only one there are others many but she comes to mind when you think about that but in that vein though too and that's because we have 35 different shows and 35 different hosts who are expert in their own or have deep interest in their own areas whether it's environment or energy like we have five energy shows you know the fact that we can explore the different facets of energy locally internationally the different ramifications through these different topics they aren't lawyers but they are energy people hardcore energy a lot of energy is law a lot of a lot of growing any industry is law but the other thing i think also to be discussed here is that we need to i've always felt as i was going to write a book one time and the book was called would have been called how to deal with your lawyer okay you still like that you really could be a best seller i went to my firm at the time uh and i and i said i'd like to write this book about how to deal with your lawyer you know engagement agreements retainer agreements you know how you how you make sure you're not getting over billed and whatnot um and they said don't write that book don't write that book why too much you want to keep it mysterious the practice is being something far beyond the that of mortal men and it's kind of a mystery that they just didn't have a good feeling about so i didn't write the book but but you know part of what we do especially on life in the law and all that is we introduce the public to what it's like in the industry in the economic sector of practicing law and they need to know because they don't know so many of them are intimidated they've had bad experiences they look at the media you know it paints a you know bad profile of lawyers and and the profession um and so i think part of think tech is to deliver a picture of this especially this area of activity so people you know what did you say trust right you know have a better sense of lawyers why does one help people i mean you go into the law because you want to help people you want people to be able to navigate the legal system system which is complex and uh and inaccessible in many in many instances and so there really is this original impetus of of service i i think you know the vicissitudes of business make perhaps change people but but essentially you you want your help you want to help the your client you want to help your client get what they want you know i mean that's and for think tech to do that thanks everybody it's a win win win win because the lawyer looks good we look good the public look you know it gets educated on something they really need to know about but one thing i'm going to tell you is that we have a minute left carol okay and it's time for you to summarize the show oh my goodness okay well think tech Hawaii has a lot of goals and a lot of interest and because we are lawyers in this case we hopefully bring to you our community our public a level of interest interest in understanding that will help you not just understand community issues but bringing a perspective that perhaps you may not have otherwise known and that we can enjoy sharing and we're happy to do that and we are happy to enjoy that kind of contribution of the community we do that was bigger see it as our obligation we do with vigor right what a vigorous discussion thank you ladies thank you carol manly thank you martin marion so sake