 Thank you very much for inviting me. It's a huge honor. I just want to say right away that probably slightly false pretenses because I'm absolutely not a Chinese scholar in any way But what I'm interested in what I work on is the issues of power and particularly power relations the balance of power So that's what I will be talking about More than anything is relationship between Putin and Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping It is always important how many times the leaders meet How often they meet how they perceive that balance and their relationship as you may remember or at least those of you the scholars of China and Russia may know in 1959 when Nikita Khrushchev Went to the United States to promote or agree on the peaceful coexistence Strategy with the United States at the time with Dwight Eisenhower And it worked very well. I mean, I think the trip was very successful at least for a year only But then it still was successful He right after that he immediately went to China to Beijing to convince Mao Zedong that that's okay to talk to the To the West that it's really not a threat to communism So that's how those relationship really being being built and in the last five years of Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping Met over 30 times. That's a lot of meetings that they had in variety of places. They met this year already four times You mentioned in the last sort of few months and it is really very important this particular year has been very important Precisely because in June You may have followed. There is a Something that is called St. Petersburg Russia's St. Petersburg economic forum. I don't know if you've heard of it, but it is an important forum when Putin Designed it decided to to have it. It's in St. Petersburg He's hometown and it was Russia's response to the Davos forum Because Russia always has to have a response to something the West does so it was the St. Petersburg economic forum and Once again, you may remember After Russia a next Crimea from Ukraine in 2014 the forum was sort of dying down very few Guests who were visiting important guests and in recent years in fact That changed Emmanuel Macron, I think was there last two years. I don't remember but certainly last year since Abbey of Japan was there Jean-Claude Juncker was there junker you pronounce it junker junker was there numerous times not numerous but a few times so it started picking up but the most important guest this year was CZ ping and If you follow the news it was a very dramatic Visit because they went to the Bolshoi, you know when you're in Moscow. What do you do? We go to the Bolshoi they went to the zoo They look at the bears because that's what you do at the zoo then they went to St. Petersburg They went to the Hermitage where that's what you do in St. Petersburg. So it was very very very Kind of advertised as the beginning of the new friendship the the beginning of new relationship and they Signed over 25 agreements and there's a hundred billion trade between the two countries. So there's a big story Of course, Russia needs this Russia needs this relationship very much As I mentioned annexation of Crimea brought Kind of all sorts of problems Western sanctions were Were imposed and although it didn't do the harm on the economy that the West the European Union And particularly the United States expected it to do. There was still Certain harm was done and and also when now since Putin is no longer a pariah that he was supposed to be after 2014 he does like to expand his kind of the new Warsaw packed club if you remember there was a Warsaw packed during Cold War. So now it's no no longer the worst effect but sort of a club of Leaders that do not think that Russia should be ostracized including by the way Immanuel Macron. So China would be a relationship with China China as part of the new strategic block would be quite a quite a cap and Putin's father if if he can in fact convince The Chinese to have something that is called the strategic block, which is another interesting thing of the new relationship between There's agreements on new relations between China and Russia is that China particularly doesn't want it to have a name to it doesn't want a coalition and doesn't want an alliance It doesn't want any of this and I will talk about it later a little bit. Why is that? And Putin also is very careful. So they have the relationship, but they don't have a name Which is quite unusual, but also Probably makes sense in the long run especially for that for the Chinese party China also very much interested in this relationship, of course because Donald Trump is Going all the way with increasing tariffs and we've been hearing that negotiations are going very well but they're not going anywhere and So China is forced to change business practices. And so of course CZP who is from my understanding is quite reserved when he was in St. Petersburg and In also kind of recent meetings have been talking about Putin as his best friend Which is once again a very important thing for for Putin to have they just met it during the summit of Bricks on November 13 I think it was in Brazil and both if you followed they both Slammed Western fairness and trade and trade and financial dealings and whatnot So they once again were presenting a bit of a united united front There is another project that they're working on the reason I Spend a little bit of time on talking about those projects because they really almost cut across Everything and the latest project is a cultural project There is a reppin Institute in St. Petersburg and it just announced the cooperation with the Chinese academies and art education But once again the interesting thing about art Education is not just about artists. It's certainly not what China and Russia are concerned They are the the beginning in the meeting and the sort of the announcement of this art education project Was done as a celebration of the 70s anniversary of diplomatic relations So Russia did have relationship for many years, but it's 70 years of diplomatic relations and The officials who were in charge of this they touted that project is Absolute future success and I quote because of the sense of Soviet history and camaraderie So we're going back to sort of the Soviet Soviet connection between Between Russia and and China So both Both leaders have been so we have been talking about how they they're closed like they've never been and how they're planning to be Even more close in the future what interests me now, although Once again, not I'm not only a Chinese expert. I'm also not a military expert at all, but I do find interesting the expansion not only in Technological project because as you know, I can never pronounce it correctly. How way how way the Phone thing how you pronounce it? How way sorry can't because just two languages Russian and English just fight each other how to pronounce it And so as you know, it was the firm was forbidden in the United States because it's National security problem Where was it welcomed with open arms in China and in June and July? they've been numerous meetings and So now how you pronounce it again? How way is now go partnering with the with MTS the Russian provider to Set up a 5g technology and become together become a leader of the world. So when Chinese doing it Okay, but when Russian China doing it, you know, United States watch out So they're very proud of this project and I also find it very interesting But I guess, you know Putin is we will get earlier today We were talking about the Russian symbol of the Russian code of arms is a double eagle. So there's always sort of you Think one thing and say another So there was a there was a huge drive to Kind of propagate in the United States through Russia today RT as we call it now through RT that 5g technologies is Very much related to cancer and it's very bad for your health and the more you use 5g the more The more problems you're going to have With deformity of your children, you know all sorts of horrible things and yet when China came with its 5g technology to Moscow Suddenly 5g is the yay is the big thing. So they're developing I guess the Chinese 5g is better than the American 5g So they're doing this in So this commercial projects and in and technological Know how that Russia is very willing to use and you know The trade war certainly provided Putin with an opportunity to say well, we are all up for To have that but what I think should be very worrisome is the Kind of the new cooperation It's not necessarily new but increased cooperation with the between the Russian army and the the Chinese army the People's army of China in 1993 there was a Kind of military agreement very abstract really didn't set set any strict parameters in 2026 2007 both both countries said to conducting military exercises together, which you know countries do but every year they would Come up with a new agreement or the new cooperation agreement on that just for one year So they are once again something that I mentioned they are Insisting that it's not a long binding agreement. So there's a so we're doing this for the purposes of today But we'll see how it happens tomorrow So there's a joint exercises were happening But really never on the largest scale of military technical cooperation. That's where your 5g also become very very helpful and useful So now they are actually redesigning reformulating that agreement of 93 and making and make it very much more binding in kind of involving legal terms and and and what not and in fact you may have read In the news in July. I think there was a first Joint it's not an exercise, but first joint Russia China patrol of a long-range bombers over the Sea of Japan What does it tell us? I mean, of course Russians wouldn't say why they just say, you know, we're allowed to do this But in my view what is happening is that? Russia is really being now directly involved in China's Advancement in in the South Pacific and Russia becomes part of a player of this and we talked about it a little earlier today that when we when there is a conversation about potential threats in the South Pacific and you know the variety of actors that can That can either Amend those threats or provide more the more of those in China certainly one of those that that With more power than anybody that creates more creates more threats Russia is never part of that conversation because Russia is not seen as an actor in the South in in in that area But it can be and it should be precisely that new cooperation that new already formula that that they're now trying to get to to Formalize the agreements and their cooperation actually makes Russia a player now in that part of the world, too China is known to be in Africa in a variety of ways suddenly Russia is you you've read Me may have read recently the Wagner group They are also going into China a lot of it with Chinese corporate I'll be sorry not into China into Africa a lot of it with Chinese corporation So this thing that sort of this of course, we're doing the technology and we are doing the arts the reppin Institute but a lot of things also going into the military alliance in which They're still not calling it an alliance, but it does look more and more like it is it is going to be and this Kind of brings me to my point is that of course China is the second second largest economy in in the world now Russia is 15th is we're very generous it would be 13th, I guess but So Russia is not really major it is not having an upper hand of this relationship Although of course Xi Jinping is being very Partial to Putin and calling him best friend and the best relationship and whatnot and I would like to remind you of something That didn't end well for Russia, but what ended very well for China And somehow people don't talk about it in those terms or don't talk about it enough and I think what they should In 2013 as you may remember Edward Snowden the NSA whistleblower was In China and then very quickly got out of Hong Kong and where did he end up? He ended up in Moscow because China decided that really doesn't want all the dramas with Kind of American political tussle all the fights a political fighter didn't want so I Cannot say it for effect because I don't know but I would imagine they pumped out Whatever they needed to pump out of Snowden and just send him to better pastures in Moscow to cold their pastures in Moscow And of course that's when the relationship with the United States Studied going down so that was really that created one of the first I did big ideological fights and that's when it's not Crimeates that's when the when Russia entered into systemic confrontation with the with the United States at the time China stayed away But now China also has entered into systemic confrontation with the United States And more in economic terms, but that military Military in the alliance that is being built seems to me that they're really trying to center it as a As a certain type of Kind of counterbalance to the United States particularly but generally to the West to the West as well So As I say Snowden didn't end well for Russia. I mean Russia would never admit it But it didn't because he's stuck there. There's he's giving interviews. He's saying that Russia is a bad regime They can't get rid of him. They They don't need him so it was it just created a political crisis like an aqua door embassy and and Julianna There's all these things that countries decide to do against the West, but then it ends up not working out the way they thought it would be and So that Kind of makes me think that Putin's desire to Work with CZP because he thinks he's going to get something out of China probably is Not strategic Putin is a brilliant tactician. We know that we've seen it he outsmarted Barack Obama in Syria once again got stuck there. What is he was so they kept Bashar al-Assad, but what's the point? But still outsmarted. So he proved his point, you know, we all know the 2016 elections So all these things that when Putin outsmarts tactically the West It ultimately brings more headache than it actually brings brings results same thing with with the Snowden and my fear that using China as a as a potential as a potential sort of comrade in arms against against the ideological fight with the West Or military fight with the West For that matter may not really work out for Russia that well one of the things I mean historically and I mentioned Mao Zedong and Krushchev as you remember So Mao Zedong and Joseph Stalin had to deal with each other because they were both even if they fought for global recognition of who is a Who's a you know the real descendant of Marxism and whose communism is better? They still had to kind of provide unified people's front against the capitalist West but when Krushchev replaced Stalin and Then denounced Stalin in 1956 then it really became Unacceptable for Mao Zedong he wasn't sensed resulted in Sino-Soviet split and Krushchev's visit in 59 to say that we can be friends with America Or at least coexist friendly with with America really didn't didn't help so My fear that Putin's kind of overtures and accepting of CZPings Goodwill and promises of friendship really wouldn't miss wouldn't escape The mistakes and miscommunications that were part of the earlier Soviet history and just a little bit of history since you mentioned 400 years Indeed I was two years ago. I traveled to Blagavichensk, which is a town on the border with China with a Chinese town of Heihe right across the Amur River It's only 500 meters. You really see each other and there's this you know giant towers and it's everything is lit and wonderful and kind of Slightly cheap, but well done nonetheless Or done or looks well But in Russia those scruffy streets bed for example the Chinese brought the The the bike lane the bikes and in Heihe you can actually ride a bike because the bike Lanes and all the bikes are functional and of course in Russia There's no bike lanes all the roads have holes in it and the Bunk bikes are standing there, but nobody's using them and So what what I really was interesting to see there is that that CZPing Putin's friendship that they are talking about on the leadership level and maybe in sort of this could not maybe in corporations those agreements that they signed Really doesn't translate and people-to-people relationship Which is quite remarkable because the Russians being on the west of China consider themselves the west so they do look at the Asians and also remember that You know the Soviet Union was the leader was was having a leading position vis-a-vis vis-a-vis the red China And the Chinese simply just don't notice the Russians. I myself had this Incredible experience. That was it this towns were in the Heihe was I think it I don't remember how many people it had now it had about 200,000 and Lagavians has about probably 20,000 so that's a counterbalance but also he he was really created was a village and it was created to Accommodate the shuttle traders to know what the shuttle traders are. There's other people who travel with those bags with Chinese noodles on one side Russian vodka on the other and so they trade They trade and that's just the horrible really horrible job I think it's the worst job that one can have and I traveled with them both both sides and So then I was I didn't have bags because I was just being there and a Chinese man with two very heavy bags just walked through me if I didn't jump jump aside He would have walked through me and I asked then Chinese friend who was in in Lagavians who lives in Lagavians married a Russian woman and I said so why Why such animosity and he said well because you don't notice us. We don't notice you And just please remember that only 150 years ago This was all Chinese territory and one day it will be that So all of this was Chinese territory one day will be that and I went to a museum in hey here in the town the Chinese side and Just was allowed to go in because foreigners are not allowed in because there's a certain version of Chinese history that Only Chinese should have and not the foreigners so they wouldn't be disputing it But I was there with the Chinese friend and so we were able to go in And they did like cruise chef. So I was lucky. So they decided that I'm okay to be shown that and it was amazing this kind of very similar pictures of Russians taking over the territory from the Chinese but the Chinese Call those Russians when Russians think that they just brought civilization to this Asiatic parts of the world the Chinese called them the Harry by Barbarians And so they continue to refer to them as Harry barbarians. So one of this CZP in Putin relationship Really doesn't take so far has not taken to an into account Into account that kind of the people to people to people to people relationship. There is another Thing that I witnessed on a in hey here, but also and I took trains on trains. There's a lot of Chinese Workers who log wood and the what they do they don't buy wood because it's expensive and in China They already probably limited eliminated a lot of it So they burn the wood and then they say to those very corrupt governors in the Russian provinces Why do you need it? You don't need it It's already burned and so then they log it and then they ship it to to Russia So when CZP was speaking in st. Petersburg, he was talking about the environmental policy he was saying that you know, we're going to provide Green security to the world and whatnot and and certainly our work in Russia would be very environmental It is possible that Since it's all going to become a middle kingdom one day Who knows maybe they just don't want to plunge it all together Right away. So as I said Putin is an excellent tactician, but all this technical advances that he has been so successful in so far Really created more of a headache and we talked about it earlier today It is does seem to be a Putin moment because Everybody else is in trouble and he seems to be presiding over this giant country of 11 time zones with the double-headed Eagle and his friends with CZP But at the same time how long term this kind of relationship Can last I mean for China as I said not a China expert, but for China it does seem to be much more Strategically viable than it is for Putin because turning to once again earlier We talked about somebody. I think you ask why is it all eggs in one basket? Why go to China versus everybody else and my response was Russia has never had really any Strategic capacity Tactically it has been winning as Donald Trump likes to say He's not doing that Has been winning but it essentially always lose in strategic terms and that's why it always keeps recycling It's so you said 400 years. It sort of it keeps talking about itself I mean that double eagle it keeps talking about itself is if it's just Byzantium collapsed not in 14. What was that 1473 53? 53 1453 not in 15 not in 1453, but say 2014 thank you Thank you very much Nina Your presentation has raised very many interesting questions not least Kind of Phenomenon that history tends to repeat itself between Russia and China you mentioned a Denunciation of Stalin by Nikita Khrushchev being very badly received by Mao Zedong. I think it's equally clear that the Gorbachev reform quasi-revolution was equally badly received by Xi Jinping when you talk about the Russian Settlement near the border with China it raises the question of the phenomenon of the Pochumkin village, which is a very Russian type phenomenon and overall I think that And There is a contrast between the strategic patience which is evident in China and I think the need for Support and evident progress in Moscow, which China doesn't necessarily Want to meet all of a sudden when you mention the the themes That the Chinese population mentioned to you and I'll always Remember that despite the fact that there have been formal agreements on the border between Russia and China Chinese children's textbooks still mention a Claim for one and a half million hectares Despite the fact that they're in the green so there is a lot to play for when you mention Africa and The Pacific it also occurred to me that Chinese Navy has engaged in exercises with the Russian Navy in the Baltic and also in the eastern Mediterranean There is quite a lot going on there, but it's not here where it will all end up I throw the floor open to your questions in your comments If asking a question or making a comment, would you please say who you are and what your creation is? Well, my name is Jim Dorgan. I'm just a member of the Institute I just want to ask you a question which does possibly a bit about Russia. You mentioned the economy of Russia Just check this the Russian economy by some measures is smaller than that of Canada But it's putting a lot of in Italy Well, it's certainly smaller than Italy, but even Canada is a smaller population in Italy But in any case we know it's small, but the amount of hard military hardware they're putting out is is rather impressive I have to say hypersonic nuclear bombers and gliders actually and Torpedoes that can go 400 kilometers narrow into water and things like this is expensive stuff And I just wonder where the money is coming from to do this bearing in mind to another thing that the Russian economy Has always not much else But that's exactly what okay with the question is then how long are they probably going to put up with the situation where they have guns with no butter You know as Gorbachev used to say in your question there is an answer Exactly, I mean, you know it was a military industrial complex of the Soviet Union They were in fact in 59 that you know famous visit As you may remember it was not just the crucial visit crucial visit to the United States, but they also brought the The each country brought an exhibition to another country and so with with people Guides of the of the exhibition and whatnot and there was famous American exhibition which Richard Nixon was vice president at the time and He Eisenhower wanted to bring all the military stuff to show the Soviets what he can do being the general and Nixon memorably said the power of butter is stronger than the power of guns So the Soviets tasted Pepsi Cola for the first time they saw the model American kitchen and all these other things By me Exactly and so but the Soviets of course brought their tanks and tractors and things that the military industrial complex So it has always been I mean, that's that's how they think they they think in those torpedoes but you know the Putin is cleverer than the rest in in a tactical sense because There is I mean he would a lot of disillusionment in Kind of all the political formulas and opportunities for people bread and circuses they really figured out to the point because they The kind of food courts that Russia has and not just Moscow you would not dream of it I mean honestly if you want to before it all collapses I suggest you go and visit because it I've never seen anything like that. It's more than even a lifestyle. It is something existential So they are doing better than this in but yes absolutely of course And you know, please do remember that there is a lot of oligarchs who all put in their existence So there's a torpedo to make here it is something somebody is going to pay for it Don't Thank you very much professor for a very interesting presentation Donal dynamics my name a member of the Institute. I was wondering is there any potential for? Good news stories emanating from this relationship for example in terms of the environment the Arctic space exploration And while I have the mic and while you're here Do you have any comment on the testimony of dr. Hill in Congress yesterday? Is there any good of this relationship? Of course, there's always a good in this relationship in any relationship I think they're studying with the kind of negative Already with the negative point because they talk about cooperation, but both of them are Doing it because the West has done something that they think malign them in one way or another And that's why I mentioned Snowden because Putin charged on Snowden He didn't like Barack Obama so he thought he's just gonna stick it to Barack Obama and China stayed away But now China is not so yes, of course absolutely, but if the major point is to stick it to the West It's going to be framed this way. So even if they go into space. It's going to be yet another kind of underlying Narrative so in in this sense, I think it's it is harmful just just because it's it's done not because of cooperation, but because to To get to somebody else Fiona Hill is an old friend So I was very proud of her the way she was holding herself I was expecting a little bit more explanation as to the sources of Russia's conduct Because being a Russian in the United States right now is really not a pleasant Experience I must say because you know you say hi. I'm a Russian that Russian professor So I really expected and she and I talked about a lot, you know, how one of the problems is that There is certain rhetoric being chosen about Russia some of it correct But a lot of it is blown out of proportion with no analysis Once again go back to George Ken and the sources of Soviet conduct the sources of Russian conduct Nobody talks about it and she's very good at that. I mean she wrote a book about the sources of Putin conduct so I expected more and I kind of slightly concerned that By she was very measured very good very explanatory but By saying that Putin is undermining American democracy Explaining other things with that People only here or many people only here Putin is undermining American democracy and from then on that's how we're going to deal with it So I already read today that a lot of her testimony was taken out of context and was like oh that Russian skull She just told us it's not just about Ukraine. It's what we're bringing it back to Russia. How wonderful So, yes, she and I are going to have a conversation about this Thank you very much My name is Michael Sanfi the policy planning unit of the Department of Foreign Affairs And it's very interesting to me that you've mentioned Edward Snowden a few times But actually I wonder could it not be argued that it's rather Aventages for Russia to have Edward Snowden because for example he left Hong Kong where as we know You know, there's incredible mayhem happening in Hong Kong now It doesn't seem to be reflecting very well in China in terms of its approach to freedom and Snowden Was the keynote speaker? By video link at the Lisbon Web Summit only two weeks ago So he's kind of quite a big deal still and the fact that he's based in Russia It just seems to me that it's you know quite advantageous for Russia that he's there Okay Yes, I say why I think you know your Your point of view of this is as good as mine. I it's possible that today plays out that he may I don't know I I do know that Putin hates him. He wants him out That It was a lot of a headache And I don't I actually don't know how it with advantages it is to Russia because I don't see I mean I see your point and it may and probably is could be correct. I just don't see Why Russia needs yet another headache of saying, oh It supports and harbors all these people who go against democracy or Proper channels of communication and whatnot. So Russia Once again is playing the unfun terrible and I'm not sure it's such a wonderful thing for For Putin but but the way you put it is exactly how Putin would twist it Although he does I do know it for a fact He hates Snowden's guts because Snowden betrayed The security of the country and of course it's not his country and good for Snowden Putin may think but is it his own KGB as his own because he's himself a security man He does consider Snowden a traitor and he wants him out and Uses I guess uses him but Well, of course, it's true that Edward Snowden ended up in Moscow by accident He was aiming to go to American Thank you very much for a very interesting presentation. I had the privilege of living in Russia Putin came into power and What are the first words I learned in Russian So you go I see you've written about Did I find the soul The feeling is Thank you, I was I did this trip two and a half years ago, so it's different now Because now they are tired of animosity and Russians are tired of animosity, but at the time they were not yet So it was 2017. It was before Putin got reelected Putin Took the elections Again in 2018. I can't say reelected So it was it was before that I The sole part is Because the title I think my editor wanted the title of you know how Putin Collapsed the country something like a kid collapsed But if I and I said if you want a cliche, I'm gonna give you a cliche here Is the empire word in it and here is the soul word in it? So you want that? She said yes, like, okay, fine You want it have it so it was it was more of I was almost mocking people who only think in Russian those terms but searching for the soul was an interesting thing because it was I Think for me it was searching for first of all, I'm a privileged Mosco like who lives in New York now, so it's We don't go to the provinces. We privileged Moscovites. Don't go to the provinces We actually have the provinces come to us So the fact that I was able to go through the country was a remarkable Markable opportunity and was just what I've seen I actually I came back from the trip so the soul But when I came back from the trip, I I was I was saying and probably even wrote it in the book Is that if I were Putin, I think I'm God and He thinks he's God because when you go through all of this You actually think that you're God because you have all this you have Germany on one side of China on another They have Mongolia you have Genghis Khan right on the border You'll have Sarah Palin saying hello. You remember that She was looking the Russia back back yard from the Pacific Ocean So it is it is grandiose. I mean it is a grandiose country, but and it's also kind of a Small observation, but I think a very important one. I mean we always thought when we talk about countries We always talk about how great people are and people are great everywhere I mean it is every country's Stands on its great people, but when it's such a giant country with such horrible Tragic violent history when every leader comes in and deletes the previous one even if you know even Crucian who tried not to kill still leads the previous one essentially eliminates the The grass roots existence of people because the new system comes in and says you're not doing this you're doing this and When I was traveling and that's I guess that could be the soul that Russian people are like snow drops Just there's a sweeping winter comes Storm destroys everything and here they are spring and here They are walking up again, and they're having the new business and the new cafes and there was a wonderful city Right smack in the middle of Moscow in the middle of Russia called Omsk And a wonderful city really wonderful tortured to death because they were for five minutes They were the capital of the white army when the army was was going to Siberia thinking that The Red Army would stop somewhere and then they can come back So completely tortured by his that that history thinking they could have been that Capital of Russia of the white Russia at the time and there's a lenient street because there's always a lenient street and There is a cafe on the lenient street called New York Because what else you would have on the lenient street and you walk into that cafe and the first thing you see as a special for today was Blood board and it says coffee drink Trump Okay, I tried some cappuccino with molasses and caramel in it Disgusting and I said so is it a compliment or is it a is it a mockery and the barista? Wonderful woman. She said whichever you want Hi there, thank you very much for the talk My name is Aaron Burnett and I'm a freelance journalist and a member of the IEA's emerging voices group And I have a question quickly about the Western Balkans Because of course Macron's famous little no to the Western Balkans some time ago Leaving room open for example for extensive Chinese investment in the area Of course since we're talking about Russia and China that leaves open the the whole idea of that sort of in the in the Russian backyard, so if Europe sort of Leaves that area alone because of Macron's decision How might How might the sort of this this Russia Chinese friendship play out in a place like that go in? Because I mean that's that's what they do and that's you know one of those things I think Putin is using all the time is that Western hypocrisy? He keeps saying well you promise this you tell this you said you're going to do this and then you don't do this How are we going to behave of course? He's going he goes we talked about it early. Please forgive me those who heard it I'm because I look at power. I always look at what kind of sports the great leaders or not so great leaders do He's a judo master is a judo master. He sees a weakness. He goes in so it's an empty spot in empty space He cannot not go in which way we don't know how much we don't know But he cannot not go in because the West gave that Essentially gave it to him. He is and they already used various manipulative techniques and In in the Balkans and we also know that money's power and so all these rich Russians or not all many rich Russians went into Macedonia they went into Albania and they bought properties there They're wonderful properties and a lot of it is owned by the Russians so I think it is a big question for the West generally is that when I Was George Kennan's last research assistant, which was the most amazing when I say that I can't believe that it actually happened to me George Kennan was this great American diplomat who described the sources of Soviet conduct the Soviet behavior and he always said that Policy should be measured not in two years not in five years, but at least in ten years So when these decisions are being made they should be made I mean one of the great examples is Georgia our Georgia and not American Georgia I'm in Europe, so I shouldn't say that but in America you always have to qualify so in Georgia when They are they want to be members of NATO they want to be members of European Union They were all they used By the West against the when Russians went in in 2008 there's all these things promised and we are going to you know Make you work forward and then of course everybody left because the minute the war is over everybody left And who goes in the Iranians go in and the Iranians if you if you land in Well, it changed a little bit because they have a European president French woman president Salamie the Zorab is really so she stopped at practice, but for two years you're flying to Belize you have You have flights from Riyadh from Tehran from Moscow and some third of my fourth place It could be from the Czech Republic It could be from Ireland from somewhere, but three of them are taken very heavily Oh and sorry and one is from Azerbaijan because these people come with money and they buy property and Georgia has this wonderful laws when you can buy you cannot buy land You cannot buy farmland, but you can buy anything With no question asked and so Iranians and the Russians and and the Russians are now own half of the Lexi Resort in Georgia. So the same thing and it's Saying that how dare Putin and he would say Macron, what were you thinking what you thought they were just going to turn around and collect stamps with you I'm not going to you'll give me an opening I'm going to use it and and something that we really should always think about this that Often especially in the United States. They think that they decide something and that's how it's going to be They decide something and that's not how it's going to be because there is another side to it The last three questions No door a member of the Institute Thank you for your presentation. I think you said that Russia in a sense Sees itself as the West vis-a-vis China I know you said you're not a China expert, but I wonder if you would have any comment on how China Would see Russia would it always at a deep level see Russia as the West and remember the 19th century and so on So that the present relationship between the two leaders Would be a temporary one, but at the deeper level and in Kenan's tenure perspective It would always be this China feeling of the West of Russia as really part of the West Thank you for this. I can only speculate, but I think Russia. I mean China Russia is the West for China because it is to the West and in fact when I went to hey, and I was looking at From from they embankment. I was looking back at Russia and I was with the Chinese friend and there was a Group of young people and in there a few young people I think one a couple and they were pointing their fingers on the other side and saying that's the West so they See it as the West not necessarily in terms. We understand we when we talk about the West Which is Europe, but So for them, it's the West, but I think that's why CZP is so relishing That kind of upper hand that he has over the Russians because they they now send the man They send the man in space. They have a space program I mean it took them much longer than the rest of Those in the Cold War, but they did it. They had their Olympics. So they're really relishing to their advantages and the advancements and I think the 5g technology is particularly very interesting because the Russians as great as they think they are and They have very difficult I mean actually I'm kind of fascinated by the fact that they were able to figure out the food courts just the restaurants Just shocking to me, but okay, maybe they will figure out something. But the Russians are never At least so far have not really been able to to your rocket Have not been able to put soft power things into production. I mean Russia always has one amazing thing It's going to be the longest court in the world They are going to be making that longest court, but it's going to be one court KGB had the best computer, but it would be one computer and the Chinese are doing these things that Russians can't because Russians are grandiose, I mean, I don't know if Chinese grandiose I guess it is but not in the in those Byzantine terms that Russia's grandiose because even if you look at Russian literature It's all war and all peace all crime and all punishment that give me something small But it's never I mean any every book is all something. It's just give me tiny. There is no tiny and because there is no tiny The 5g Russians cannot do because they don't do tiny And the Chinese can and so they come in with their know-how and until recently It's the Russians who would go with know-how and I think that reversal of the West is probably something that the Chinese Are very proud about and that's why when the man jumped through me Thank you very much professor for your talk. My name is Alexander Davy from the Trinity Center for Asian Studies And I have a question regarding you mentioned the Wagner group I'm wondering In relation to China has there been or is there any evidence of cooperation between the people's Liberation Army and the Wagner group? I cannot answer this question. I don't know. No, I really don't know I know they've been doing Some very shady deals together, but I really I'm not an expert on this. I never studied I didn't even write about the bug in the group. So I can't tell you I know just in general that it's happening, but and for I'm just not gonna make up something Apologies Connor daily Connor daily member of the Institute dr. Khrushchev. Thank you for your presentation talking again about China and Russia Do you see any commonality between the treatment by both countries of their ethnic minorities? So I'm thinking about in particular the treatment of the Muslim minorities So the Chechens maybe Tatar Tatar Stan The fact that recently Tatar is no longer taught as a Subject in schools Children in Kazan do not learn through Tatar any longer under Putin time parallels between that and what we're seeing in In Xi Jiang province in the west of China Kazakhs evers and in general the the vision that both countries have of the nation state And a small parallel follow-up question Do you see any merit in the the hypothesis of Eurasianism that was invented after all by by Russians Nicolaid's a bit score in the 20s do you think that there is such a thing as Eurasia and is this relationship between Putin and Xi Jinping maybe a precursor of what we can come to expect What thank you. This is a very complicated and very Philosophical question, which I'm not sure I can I can answer I think I think they do think in those terms because Russia's I keep saying that Russia is a Western country I mean with I call it the unwest It's sort of the country that has all the formulas of the west, but because it cannot joke run fast enough It's as well. We are all in civilization. We have a soul talking about the soul, but Russia is not a civilization There is no civilization of China's a civilization Persia is a civilization Russia's not a civilization There is nothing civilizational about anything Russian because even it's early Beginning the Kievan Rus was not a civilizational project. It was a You know the influence of Greece influence of Byzantium. It's never never had its own ideology of anything It's then and but it is developed an ideology what the West is not so Russia what the West is not but all the Western Definitions and formulas which makes it the West so in this sense it is an interesting so it keeps looking at the West But the West says well, we're better than you and you're part in Asia. So just go there and then Russia goes Goes there, but Russia keeps Russia is not an Asian Civilization it really is not and it does look I mean Putin loves the Eurasianist He loves the yin and the Berdyaevs and all the druski near and the whatever so I'm sure he's thinking that I think his problem is that he's thinking as the Eurasianist Did that he's the center of it and then China is a kind of the Asian part that we are going to civilize But it's no longer the case. So even if they think that Once again, it isn't it does exist. That's on Xi Jinping's terms. So it's his Rather than Putin's way against the West. It's easy being Xi Jinping's way into the West Which really doesn't work very well for Putin I'm afraid of for Russia for that matter, but I'm sure they're thinking that I mean, you know, the Dugan philosophy all this Philosophical formulas that they suck out of their fingers going back to as I said, I mean Byzantium collapsed in 1453 Are we talking about it is just yesterday? So yes, but that's what I think the tension for Putin is that he thinks he's gonna you know the big brother see but We're Western and see things that you are 15 size economy I'm gonna take you over in a second. We're gonna use your military power and then take you over with it So but I really don't I mean, I'm like Putin. I'm not a strategist. So I don't predict I can only unanalyze what what's what's here and What may or may not work and in shorter term And who knows in George Cannon's ten years, you know, what if Trump Donald Trump pushes the button then all of us go somewhere Thank you very much, you know, by the way, we had She only in here when she was still a member of the broken institutions still is Well, she was in the broken institutions when she spoke to us here and we share completely your admiration for her And we think I think we've been very privileged to get your insights today on this question Your insights are all the more valuable than that You are a Russian who lives and walks in the United States As far as understanding Russia and the Russian soul, I can't do better than the I Think it's a Russian cliche by now. It's a quotation from future I think and you don't understand Russia. You love Russia It's not it's not Something that one can analyze I think it's a fair summary of your presentation as far as Russia is concerned The relation between Russia and China is of course crucial to us all as I mentioned at the beginning And it's one of the reasons why we have Proposals coming out from people like the man who will macro more recently and it presages. I think a new and different world order you very rightly say that It's not possible to characterize Exactly the Russian China Relationship nor do they want the Relationship to be described in some ways. I think one of the best descriptions. I have heard of it It was from Bobo know whom you may know Who calls us a worry embrace that matter, but the best characterization. Thank you very much. Thank you