 I'm in Skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host Alex Sikaris and you know I've taken to letting Skeptico listeners guide me on who I should talk to. And today's show is a great example of how wonderful that can be when you let other people take the reins. I am almost embarrassed to tell you that I wasn't aware of the tremendous body of work you can see some of the books on the screen that have been generated by the husband and wife writing team of Rob and Trish McGregor. Both separately have each become award-winning authors as well as together have done some amazing work. But on so many of the topics that we love to talk about here on Skeptico and we like to dive into deeply as they have so synchronicities, remote viewing, UFOs, ETs, spirit communication, astrology, WIC, a lot of other stuff that we haven't talked as much about. These folks are just a tremendous well of information and as I just alluded to it's quality stuff it's not like people they crank out a lot of books but there's a lot of great stuff in these books so I'm blown away I'm super excited to have them on and to meet them and have a chance to talk to them. Rob, Trish, thank you both so much for joining me on Skeptico. Well thank you Alex. Now if our dog suddenly shows up in this picture it's because he's right under the table here. Thanks for inviting him. You guys as I just mentioned we're going to be talking a lot about these many many books you've written and we're going to play a little game that I like to play called Skeptico Jeopardy where you pick the topics and then we go where you drive us but as I'm often guilty of I sometimes kind of jump in there and pick the first one and here I guess we have to talk about books. Yeah it started basically when I met Trish I was working as a newspaper reporter on a daily paper in Hollywood Florida and I was assigned to do an article on how the Cuban refugees could come to Florida and the United States after the Cuban boat lift in 1980 and this is like a couple years later how they were integrating into our society. Trish was teaching English as a second language at Florida International University and so I interviewed her and we started talking and after the interview and it just turned out that we both had read all of these Seth books and by Jane Roberts and we knew no one else who had not only had they not never heard of the books or heard of them but had no interest in the subject matter so it was nice to meet somebody who had similar interests and things went from there. Well that's fantastic you know and as I mentioned earlier you've written on a lot of different topics and we're going to talk a lot about many of the different ones we're going to talk about synchronicities especially because a lot of people are interested in that and you guys have an interesting theory about how synchronicities may be at the core of a lot of these different phenomena and how they all might be linked but I'd like to know more about your personal journey through these different topics and in particular because this is a show that really likes to focus on science and on one hand you all don't claim to be doing science your authors but I did gain an appreciation for maybe a little bit of that newspaper reporter vibe that you have in that the accounts that you tell I get the feeling that you've tried to vet them in some pretty serious ways and in some of the work that you present to back up some of these ideas that especially when you're starting out were really unacceptable to people and have become much more mainstream but I felt like you did go to you know great lengths to show the seriousness and the serious people that were involved in that do you want to speak to that at all? One day I first read about synchronicity when I was 18 and I had picked up an Yi Qing book the Chinese book of divination and Yong wrote the introduction in 1949 and that's the place where he first publicly talked about synchronicity I thought wow this explains a lot you know because at that time I was also learning astrology which Yong studied and when I met Rob one of the first questions I asked him I said hey do you know what synchronicity is this was like my test question and he goes yeah yeah I think I do and he started talking about it and we actually our first book we tried together was on synchronicity but it didn't work yeah that was right at the beginning and that was our first attempt at a non-fiction book and it didn't go anywhere we just weren't prepared at that point to write a book on synchronicity and so you know we had other things going for his first novelty mode and I got a non-fiction project ghost writing project with the corporate executive from Washington D.C. and we both quit our jobs at that point then we ran out of money five months later actually it was a full-time job on a daily a week in newspaper but I was able to do a part-time and Trish was teaching English as a second language at a night after school program at a high school it's adult ed and you know we we did that for a year and then that's one Trish's novel sold and I got the the other project for we actually started out as freelance magazine yeah we were first we were doing magazine selling magazine articles and we were doing pretty well selling them but the problem was getting paid very slow and very low pay until we got hooked up with Omni Magazine where they I think they paid a 75 cents a word and they paid a it was good and we got a lot of assignments from Pamela Weintraub at Edderture and that's how we met Betty Hill and Bud Hopkins who introduced us all UFO stuff you know one of the things we're going to have to do during this show is deal with a lot of name dropping and it's not name dropping I shouldn't say that because that is a negative connotation but one of the things people are going to have a appreciation for is seeing it all done it all been there all these people that you've encountered which are just tremendously important people in a number of these different fields and I've jumped over to the UFO topic even though I have up on the screen sync rose so let me pull back to the sync rose thing synchronicities because I think we've talked about these a number of times on the show and I want to kind of approach it from a couple of different angles one you've written several different books on synchronicities and you've chronicled some amazing synchronicities these kind of coincidences that go way way beyond coincidences in our life but I also wanted to connect it to the fact that on this show we've also looked at the undeniable science that seems to suggest that there's something real going on here so if you look at Dr. Dean Raiden and his work on pre-sentiment it's kind of pointing in that direction Dr. Julia Mosbridge at Northwestern as well and a friend of our show Dr. Andy Picat who's looked at dreams and synchronicity and the unbelievable connection statistically but let's start maybe from the beginning and talk about synchronicities because if people pick up this book that I have up on the screen the seven secrets of synchronicity they'll find some really good kind of factual stuff about what synchronicities are some common understandings you know this thing of the the number thing is always interesting to people who ask me the I have to say the other day yesterday I was preparing I was getting ready to prepare for this interview I wake up I look at the clock 444 you know this all happens on the day that I'm doing the the prep work for the people that are the synchronicity people but I'm sorry please let's talk about synchros wherever you want to start well you know okay one of the things that was surprising to me I kept rereading Jung's autobiography and he throughout his life had a lot of numerical synchros synchronicities that happened to him and his theory was that every number is an archetype of energy and you keep seeing that particular number until you figure out sometimes you never figured out but until you figure out what the message is that's how Jung approached it and another man Bernard Bateman you need to have him on your show he's a psychiatrist visiting psychiatrist at the University of Virginia and he's really the first psychiatrist to take on a serious study of synchronicity since young yeah since young yeah and I'd like to just mention a couple of our best stories that are personal synchronicities if I might that are would be considered pretty astonishing sometimes people have their own personal synchronicities they tell you they're very meaningful to that person but then you think then you tell somebody else and the other person but these I think are pretty dramatic this one took place in Venezuela at the airport as you're leaving the airport it was at a time when the Colombian drug lords were moving cocaine to Miami but they weren't moving it out of Bogota anymore they were they shifted to Venezuela and so there was a large present army presence at the border there at the airport and so we come up with our our luggage and to go through but just in front of us there's a man who doesn't have any luggage he just has a briefcase he's dressed as suit very tall and he's wearing a three-piece suit kind of looked out of place in a way and he puts down the briefcase unlocks it opens it up we're standing right behind him and there's these kids like 16 17 years old with machine guns kind of leaning over we're wondering what's this going to be there's only one thing in that briefcase and it's a book called fevered written by Trish but I couldn't I couldn't even prove it because it was written under a suit oh we didn't even talk about the situation but that blew us away you know and it was a kind of a fevered yeah it was a tension there uh as well and uh you know we just looked and got to what so that uh that was a good one one other one I might mention is I used to be a wind surfer and uh I would wind surf sometimes on a neighborhood lake and one day I went out and I just I was too excited the wind was going good and I was too excited and got jumped jumped on my board a little too soon before I didn't take my billfold out and at some point the I went down and lost the billfold but I really wasn't aware certain that that's where I lost it but I just knew after I came home from one certain I didn't have a billfold anymore and so the thing is I talked to Trish Barney and he said yeah it's probably in the bottom of the light but I had the feeling that it was going to come back to me it's just an odd thing I just I didn't contact any of the credit cards I didn't try to get a new driver's license so three or four days go by and I get a telephone call and I'm answering this Rob McGregor yeah he said oh I'm glad you're alive I was I was fishing in this lake with a net and came up with your life that your body might be down there as well and so he finds it and then he we decided to meet at his house and it's a man from India and it turned out he was having a big party at his house the sunday I went there it was like moving into a foreign country about 40 different people in the house hanging out in the garage and all over Indian food and so I'm looking for this guy there's three guys there with the same name and I finally get to the one who owns the house he gives me the billfold all my cards all my money is in there and I looked at hey I just met you last week he he has a lawn service and he came knocked on my door and advertising his services I talked to him for about five minutes and uh and so here I met him again so that's that's that's a really unusual one you know there's a couple things about that story that I think are really worth talking about a little bit further one is that you know as we've shown on this show there's these different levels to these different paranormal phenomenon and and like one is we feel a need to prove it you know so we want to talk about we want to pull young in or we want to pull in some authority or like I was doing we want to talk about the science that's been done on it but then in another we quickly get past that and we get to the personal you know and that's something I've experienced and I've experienced both myself directly a lot of times people will have medium readings and it'll be exactly like you were saying Rob they'll say you know this little thing came through that when I tell it to anyone else it seems insignificant but to me it was the most meaningful little bit of information that would come through that brings us to the point of start to ask some really really deep questions is who is orchestrating this for what purpose and meaning might it be orchestrated is it good is it bad is it our spirit guides are we potentially being deceived is there a grand order to everything and is it working out in a clockwork like fashion I think your work particularly with sync rose brings us to the point where we can start asking those deeper questions so let's do it what do you what do you think about that but after I had initially read young's introduction to the Cheng I I actually started experiencing which what I thought at the time was coincidences but there were synchronicities and once Rob and I years later got around to writing the seven secrets of synchronicity we realized that there were really seven categories there could actually be more because we we had other categories too but the editor we were working with said oh let's keep seven secrets you know we like that alliteration of the of the essence so we did a part two on it but one of the things we found is okay when you're at an intersection in your life okay you're going to move or you're going to get married you're going to have a baby you know big big life events that's when synchronicities seem to happen most frequently right that's one yeah that's one thing also when you travel and you're outside of your comfort zone then you also seem to experience synchronicities sometimes they're warnings sometimes they're confirmations um and sometimes they're tricksters so when you were talking about are they good or bad I mean I had a trickster sickness you kind of kick me off um I had written I was writing a trilogy for tour and I wanted the second book to be to evolve time travel so Rob and I were in Orlando at a Scottish festival and I was looking at clothing that they had there and I looked at the label in one shirt and it said time travel I thought wow okay here's my confirmation this this is what my second book you know that's a good idea when I passed it by my editor she said I don't want time travel so I thought all right that's a trickster you know it was a manifestation of what I wanted but not what was going to be so you're talking about asking a question about what's the source of these uh synchronicities these meaningful coincidences coincidences we feel that there's like a deeper level of reality that exists where everything is interconnected and uh the explicate as um it's the implicate is the inner they implanted excuse me uh as David Bowman quantum physicist described it and then there's the explicate which is the physical world where things do not seem to be all interrelated that it seemed to be just the opposite oftentimes but what synchronicity is is right at the border between the implicate and the explicate because it's something that's peeking through from the uh implicate order where everything is interconnected so it's it's like a clue like uh people are more religious like they there's a book called guide winks you know they see it as a religious yeah I get that part of it but I don't think that really gets at the question of which which can be asked in a number of different ways but it's like who's orchestrating it and for what purpose and we don't I'm not fixed that we have to come down with a solid answer one way or another and I wouldn't trust it if we did because I think the data as we're as you've encountered it in in your other work like when we're going to go over and talk about ets and abductions slash contact experience good et bad et when we're talking about demons when we talk about hungry ghosts or we talk about angels you know we we have a lot of different stuff going on in these extended realms so I'm all for this idea that you're putting forward which is really fascinating which is synchros are this particular means of communication in that kind of in between zone that might have a particular purpose might serve a particular function as a way of communication but it does drive me towards those questions of you know who is orchestrating it for what purpose and I think it's all I honestly believe that it's all internal you know if if somebody doesn't believe that a coincidence is meaningful they're not going to experience anything you know generally um generally generally like you say because because sometimes right I mean you can see this in your own work right sometimes it'll come and just beat you over the head I mean sometimes it'll be really subtle and you have to pay attention to it to get the meaning other times it's like no I'm telling this is sometimes they even pass right over by us over us we have a have a synchronicity something small and we don't even think about it at the time then later saying hey we just so and a lot of people who don't think we think about this all the time we've written so many books about it but a lot of people who aren't really paying attention aware of synchronicity I think they have these coincidences and they just may think about it for a second or two and then move on their life what's really interesting we have neighbors who have two children and when our first book came I gave my neighbor the book and she read it and then she came she said to me Trish I think I've had a lot of synchronicities in my life and then her kids started coming over and saying miss Trish miss Trish we've had some synchronicities and it because so part of it is is that awareness you know wow okay I get this and as you're more aware they happen more often so okay but guys what does that mean again we're describing it which is awesome I mean you guys have I don't want to sound this to be taken the wrong one because it has all up to you for doing this work and for amassing it and again folks if you have any doubts like that you know they're kind of being fluffy with this go read these accounts they're amazing and we can go back to the fact that these people are careful about collecting accounts they don't just go take stories that they pick up on the street they try and verify them in many cases through a certain extent to a certain extent and like people will come on their website and share synchronicities but they won't just stop and take them verbatim they'll go and email the person and follow up and really try and verify it but again we're describing it but we have contradictions all over the place right that that must trouble you too in terms of yeah it does because what you know for instance you know if you look at the number 11 or 11 11 and when we started looking into that I was kind of blown away I thought okay where where how can it be so many 11 11's you know I mean we were in Colombia last year and I found out the Cartagena was freed from its independence from Spain on November 11th 11 11 I thought now how can this be you know so I don't know who's orchestrating him it's I don't I don't I mean I do think it's that underlying that that implicated order of things and then we exist in that order as well as we exist here so fair fair enough I mean if that's your answer I'm gonna just try and pin you down because if that's your answer fair enough is that we are orchestrating it it's the top of thing it's the we are co-creators of our reality so of course okay I buy that I buy that I buy that right but then I jump over to the other some of the other work ET is is real okay a lot of people don't want to accept that always amazed me when people go yeah I believe in UFOs but I don't believe in ET you know it's like yeah right so ET is really no matter how we look at it and we'll dive into that in a minute but there is a being a species a manifestation of consciousness that is playing in this in between realm in a way that we don't understand jump experience or the mediums they're now talking to spirits who are in this extended realm in a way that we don't totally understand but seems to have some ability to access synchronicities or affect synchronicities in our life so that in a way I'm not saying it completely does but it kind of stands a little bit in contrast with this we are creating our reality well we're creating our reality but these other beings are there too and they seem to be saying it I agree I mean a lot of time you know with spirit contact in particular you there is interaction you know I don't know if they're creating the synchronicity but something is creating the synchronicity and I think these higher beings can move between the physical realm and between dimensions and non physical that can appear appear to us not necessarily coming on a UFO but just manifesting to us and we're writing a book right now with a woman who is a retired veterinarian who has had since since early mid 90s she's been having these experiences and is continuing to have these daily experience with you she doesn't want to call them aliens she calls them beings and she describes them and she's one of these people who actually likes this experience so she doesn't consider that she's being adopted they come to her every afternoon she spends two to three hours in her bed with them they're not in the bed they're around the bed and like one of them is this creature that's about seven feet tall and looks like a praying mantis and I would go through the ceiling if I saw that thing and it's got stands at the bottom of the bed it's got these long arms and this is manipulation that but as she says who's better equipped to investigate an alien species than a veterinarian interesting that's an interesting angle I hadn't heard before yeah she sent Rob some recordings that she made and they freaked me out they sound insectile you know like if you were standing in an orchard or something and every cricket and insect in the world was singing and she said you know we've checked her out we've known her for a number of years and she's a legitimate contactee and has an incredible story and I think this story could be the modern day equivalent of communion because it's interdimensional it's physical and non-physical connections and it's it's a fascinating story she it's a lot of a lot of others thought out of body travel that they have pulled her out of her body and travel with her in different dimensions she has lots of those stories that are really fascinating and she feels that what they're doing is they're helping her to evolve vibrationally right and then how she could yeah and she's she's feels that she's living the future this is what humans are evolving to to become both physical and non-physical beings that move between the two realities in other words we get away from the nuts and bolts idea of space travel and the travel through our minds through consciousness and can manifest physically elsewhere well that's a topic you guys have discussed and covered extensively in some of your prior books I just pulled up aliens in the backyard and beyond strange I mean you have amazing cases of uh contact slash abduction I think that's a really interesting topic that I'd like to dive into you with you know one of the guests that I've had on recently and there's several guests who are doing this research with the free foundation I don't know if you've heard them but Ray Hernandez and Rudy she they're down there in Florida and the things they've done and Ray's been on the show multiple times is they've looked at experiencers and they've tried to look at that experience scientifically through a very academic survey you know and you know the drill if you do surveys the right way you can get good data I mean that's how they do that's how they get data on pain or depression you know you have to go ask people but you ask them with enough questions and you do it in a way that kind of asks it multiple ways and if you do it carefully you can get good data well their data surprisingly comes back and it is very much in favor of I guess that last contactee that you were mentioning they find it overwhelmingly people have a positive contact experience and that the more experiences they have the more they understand their experiences to be positive they see spiritually transformative experiences throughout these they see healing experiences that are kind of pretty undeniable people can also develop psychic abilities too don't they psychic abilities which is against maybe similar to the near-death experience where people do that but at the same time that stands in contrast with some of the cases that you've reported that I think we have to take very seriously we have to respect where people are coming from some people are having traumatic abduction experiences that we can't really put in any other way no one wants to be taken against their will and have these kind of weird medical experiments done right and people are reporting that and there's good documentation for that where people come back and they don't their clothes are switched with someone else's clothes are on backwards all this kind of strange stuff that is really terrifying and then to see your children which in a lot of cases people see their children being abducted or having this contact experience so this idea of the good alien versus the bad alien is something that I think really needs to be wrestled to the ground a little bit more and who better to do it than you two I don't think there's just one species here you know just like we're not just one you know we have blacks and molotovs and whites and you know we're as varied I think as these aliens different cultures systems and different intentions so so I think some of them are here maybe for not the best modems for the future of the human race others may be very neutral and just coming for harvesting our resources that they can make use of and others may be benevolent and here to help us but but not in a way that we want we might want them to to land on the White House lawn make an agreement that you know that they're they don't sort of be think that is the best way that we have to do it ourselves and they're maybe helping behind the scene but not in not in a way that concrete a concrete way that we see we had in one of the cases we talk about in aliens the backyard about this French Canadian who's had this experience in his backyard over a period of time we asked him he was carrying around a vial of holy water of holy water and so Rob said send it to us we'd like to take it up to Casa Daga the spiritualist community in Central Florida and have a friend of ours who's a psychic psychometrist read it so psychometrist is somebody who takes an object and reads it reads the object but she also is a is medium mystic so I went in there and I had the vial and she used to be an R in so Kathy if you thought it was a vial of urine that I was for years no I didn't tell her what it was but I just started laughing so she reads it and she goes oh they did it for fun in other words they entertainment she said entertainment that was the whole that kind of freaked us out that this is this can be entertainment for them that was something that was yeah definitely was you know I had a similar story from a guy who I interviewed just terrific guy who is we have a connection Rob he's a long time yogi long time meditator for 20 years was under the the TM guy anyways he had gone to India and had an incredible series of encounters with a number of mystics gurus and stuff like that and one guy took took him kind of under his wing and said okay I'm going to tell you the truth you know I can see by your aura your consciousness has evolved so far here's what you need to take it the next way and there's these visitors out there that you're going to connect with and lo and behold he connects with these has these amazing experiences so he claims with people from the star system of serious and he travels out of body experience but the point of the story without just being another alien story is that's what they said they said you know like he said why do you why do you show up in these spaceships because obviously you can communicate telepathically you can travel telepathically and he goes that's fun it's interesting yeah that was basically and and I think you know the part of that that really resonates with me is that it's the as below so above you know often so as above so below but I think of it as as below so above we have people doing things for a bunch of different reasons and we have some people whose actions we just totally can't understand either because they're doing something really horrible and they're hurting people and being evil and you know we see that and we go why would they do that we see other people that are incredibly altruistic and just want to love and help other people and we see everything in between the people are obsessed with kind of gaining things and all this and why wouldn't there be that same kind of diversity of consciousness in these extended realms and moreover that's not only logical that to me seems to be what your data is speaking to this thought was just came into my head about a year ago we got an email from Whitley Strieber and he said you guys know where Casa Daga is and synchronistically we were just leaving Casa Daga because I had taught him a astrology workshop there I said sure we know where it is we go up there a lot he goes well can you meet me up there in a couple weeks we set a date and one of the interesting things that came out of that that meeting was he feels that abductions are not happening as frequently anymore because whoever whatever species or race was doing them they had everything they need so that now there's more of a the abductions aren't as important anymore and the way Whitley talks I mean it's like they're the ETs maybe exist in the same sphere the same dimension is the dead and that's why people sometimes when people were abducted or had encounters they would see a loved one who passed on I got a jump in there with the inquiry to perpetuate doubt skeptical thing I'd like to see the data on abductions aren't as frequent because I'll tell you one place I hear like people say UFO sightings aren't as frequent as they were before simply not true they're just more count yeah if you go count the numbers on YouTube they're certainly I don't know if they're more but there's less I wonder the same thing with abduction based on what we've just said you know there's all these different visitors throughout time right I mean forever so that that that that we live in some special time when the aliens are ready to wrap it all up I mean maybe just show me the data and and I can be a yeah well maybe that it's the so-called bad race that was doing these abductions and these medical experiments maybe they're the ones who are kind of backed off but if so then let's bring in the good guys I agree you know I kind of said I'm going to do this skeptical jeopardy thing and then I've kind of hauled the board so where do we want to go what what topic do you feel like we want to share with people spirit contact okay let's talk about spirit contact and we already did a little bit right one of the main questions I'd have regarding spirit contact is in which way do we understand spirit contact and spirit communication to be different from what we've already been talking about synchros or ET communication in the extended realm and also I have to ask you maybe if you want to share with folks the rock in the graveyard story that was a weird one great one and it also you know one thing people will find it one in your books is you guys are so brave and open and you share about your your life together as a couple and you share about with your your daughter and and this is a story that encompasses that a kind of a family story people kind of think we're weird we went to a vacation to the Dominican Republic it was a kind of a windsurfing vacation for my daughter and I were both windsurfers and we got this hotel we looked up online and seemed really nice right on the water and it was kind of u-shaped with parts on either side in the back and looked like a nice garden in the middle and then the ocean on the other side the garden actually was a graveyard and and we were right in the back on the first level so our porch overlooked the graveyard and Megan did not like that yeah our daughter was about 13 years old and she didn't like having the graveyard right there but so one day we saw that the gate was open so I said let's go in and see what's going on and so we walked in there and the first thing we see is like half of a windsurfer sticking up as a grave marker and we had thought this was some ancient graveyard that had been there you know historical one but this guy had just died four months ago and that was half of his young windsurfer was his wherever the wind blows I will be that was what it said on and his name which is cool and then we see the grave digger digger yeah he comes up to us and he says come on I have to show you this there the sand here goes up all the time and so there's graveyards layers layers of graves and so he was digging a grave to bury somebody and he came upon another grave from an earlier great the earlier graveyard and he wanted to show it to us and we thought oh that's okay we don't have to have to see what's over there so so on the way out that was near the windsurfer yeah and put in my pocket then by this time Megan is saying I want to get away from this graveyard so we talked to the management and they they put us in the the building on the side which was completely empty at the time except for us and so we now the porch looked right out around the ocean however the door to the apartment was actually closer to the graveyard than we had been before but so that night we uh got a bit fairly early about 11 10 or 11 o'clock Megan is sleeping and she's in a separate room in the back in a separate room in the back and we both fall asleep and suddenly we hear this sound boom it sounded like a wrecking ball like a wrecking ball hitting the side of the building and uh had a very resonant sound and at first I now am I dreaming this or is this happening and uh it's just my personal dream and so this happened three times three three bangs like that three times and after the the ninth one the ninth bang I sat up and Trish simultaneously sat up she had heard the same thing and it was this sense there was something very I don't know enlightening about it I just felt really filled with a very positive sense of this um yeah we weren't afraid it wasn't nothing frightening strange but and then the television came on we had nothing to watch in television and uh so it was like spirit contact but it wasn't the spirit contact where you're connecting with the family deceased family member it was because of the rock so the next day he put that rock back into the graveyard so I turned the rock to the graveyard but it was an interesting experience because it was such a resonant sound that felt both inner and outer and Megan never heard anything yeah and she never heard anything which is probably good well that's an incredible story and you know we could like we were talking about before we could really drill into how you knew it was the rock and you know did that really that was just my sense I mean but isn't that the way it is I mean that's like we were talking it is for it's like that's what is meaningful and that's the connection again to your synchronicities if it's not meaningful to you then it probably ain't crap yeah we actually thought there might have been an earthquake so uh we uh went to the management and asked them if anything there had been any reports of earthquake or anything like that and then we told them what happened they said oh that's that's the spirits uh but they're friendly they're good well let's talk about all that and let's talk about a couple of these books the secrets of spirit communication and synchronicity and the other side so this topic of spirit communication is something you guys have written about and from that story and as well as your work in mediums and in spiritualist communities you kind of know a lot about what what will people find in these books and what else do you want to share about spirit communication that you think is most misunderstood but let me tell you let me give you one really personal example um in 2000 my mother died of complications from Alzheimer's and five years later my dad died from complications of Parkinson's and I over the years I tried to keep track of them in the afterlife through dreams like I would dream of my mother still using her walker and calling for my dad or I'd see my dad you know using his wheelchair so one night Rob taught him a meditation course and I think he did an eyes partially open meditation right well anyway so my eyes were partially open that's in a really relaxed state and in a corner of the room I suddenly saw my mother and she was standing outside a theater laughing and motioning people to come on into the theater and she looked really young like in her 30s maybe and then she waves at somebody and so I looked at where she was waving and I see my dad who also is younger come trotting up to her and they looked really happy and then they realized I think they both kind of turned and there was some recognition that I could see them and they just faded away I think that was also the meditation workshop where I was teaching six sessions and that was the sixth one and the last one so just as we completed the the final moment of the meditation the lights go up and so I think well maybe there was a power or something walk back flip on the switch and it somehow had flipped off and there's nobody standing back there and but it just came right at the perfect moment lights out as the yeah my personal contact with the other side is often through deceased loved ones contacts with friends or relatives who have died like a cousin of mine I wasn't real close to him and I knew he had brain cancer and was was very ill and I didn't know how much longer he had left but I had this dream it was a very vivid dream that there he was and he looked very healthy which is surprising and he's been looking around and saying what's happening you know and then he vanishes and the next morning my sister called me and said he had uh John just died but dreams are from what we've been able to find out from our research seem to be the most common way that people initially have spirit contact maybe because it's so non-threatening you know you dream about somebody but it's it's very vivid and my mother had uh some interesting contacts with my father after he died he used to sit in his chair in the den and read luck and after uh he passed my mother was sitting there and she lived in Minneapolis in his winter and the window had frosted over and his nickname was mac and she looked and there were the initials m a c in the frost uh right next to where he had sat another time she saw him yeah this is a weird one yeah this this is one she was in that same chair uh she was kind of half asleep or half awake and uh coming awake and look there he was standing in the doorway of of the den and he was wearing this orange striped shirt and she says to where did you get that shirt from and he just laughs and vanishes you know some of the questions i've always had about medium communication and spirit communication and i'd love to get your opinion on it and i've just done a number of shows as it turns out with some different mediums um one i always have a hard time sorting through the discrepancies like i had at this medium outstanding medium no doubt she's terrific and she's doing great work she's doing she's a death doula you know so she goes around to hospice centers and helps people who are making the transition helps families who are making this transition and she uses her mediumistic abilities but she also just uses good death doula kind of things but we get to talk about reincarnation and it turns out she's from the spiritualist tradition you know the spiritualist church and they don't really don't believe in that which is strange you know the whole thing the belief thing is strange you know you have beliefs your mediums you're supposed to know all this stuff and then i spoke with another just delightful person a medium from the uk and she says yeah i was kind of brought up in that tradition and had that belief and then i had this experience with this woman who kind of helped me see my past lives and helped me understand reincarnation what's going on that we understand to be communicating with these other realms can't resolve like a basic question like reincarnation and what does that say in general for the information we're giving through i know i think we tend to think about reincarnation in linear time that this life before this life after where if you think outside of linear time all of these lights co-existing simultaneously so you are your own personality that person was on personality but your higher self is related to all of those personalities so maybe you look at that uh definition that could be one that could you could say okay reincarnation doesn't exist or you could say yes it does exist no but that he's talking about that the actual spiritualist belief right reincarnation is not real that it doesn't exist how can they get that how can they get that wrong you know if we're going to bring it down to really kind of concrete terms you know which i hate because a right and wrong is kind of a feat but but that's how it comes across right because people read your books and your books are are well organized and well thought out to kind of make a case or to say how to make for example how to improve your chances of having spirit communication which is totally valid and that's what people want to know you know how can i communicate directly with people who've passed because the in mediums will tell you that too you know a lot of mediums best mediums will say hey do it yourself that's the best because they realize they are an intermediary and they're somewhat getting in the way but i'm again kind of interested in the phenomenon itself you know like why is there how could there be that we don't why is there that dogma you know why does it i don't know it's it's very mysterious i remember the first time there's there's a medium across the day that we know really well we've known her for years and one time in a reading i said to her i said well can you tell me about my you know past lives because oh there there's we don't we don't believe in reincarnation i sat there and i was out just like so shocked you know just it's okay well does that mean you're just stuck in the afterlife for all this time i mean what happens you know and she said oh you can't explain to me what whatever the belief system was you know that what happens is you're there and then you know this is kind of a related question but something i want to ask you guys that the other problem with the reincarnation thing and i pointed it out is that the data that we get back so we can get all attached to the data and science and all that stuff and there's so many problems with it but at the same time we have a need we all have a desire to kind of understand things in a rational and a logical way so if you look at the data that comes back about reincarnation it's pretty convincing you know you look at those folks at the university of virginia even send in jim tucker now you know like bam i'll hit you with these case after case where the data comes through clearly and you know they've done it in the controlled way and they have the birthmarks and all this stuff data data data and then that what do you do with that what why how do how much do we rely on that data or to what extent is that not even a valid path to pursue is it just another way that we're deceiving ourselves to things that we can nail these things down with data you guys have dealt with a lot of scientifically minded people we can talk about remote viewing and geomechanical and you know stargate or you know any number of ways where you guys are familiar with science and the data that support data let's treat all that but carol bowman wrote two books on children's past lives and she actually studied with ian stevenson and one of the areas where they differed from my understanding is that carol felt that these regressions rather than just you know finding out who you were that they're really about healing certain trauma in this life that may be related to previous lives and she do you know are you familiar with the leininger case the kid who was a worldwide they first contacted carol and she flew down to where they lived and talked to the boy and she felt there was a genuine case in fact she wrote the introduction to their book but what's interesting i said well carol get me the chart data i want to look at this kid's chart he's a astrology chart so she i'm in the data and they had only a time of birth and place of birth for his previous life as a world war two pilot but what i noticed in astrology you have the north node of the moon and the south node of the moon the north node is the direction you're supposed to move in this lifetime to achieve all of your potential the south node is your comfort zone the things you've you've mastered in previous lives for this kid the nodes were reversed and i thought i don't know what this means but it's really interesting so you know in answer to your question i mean you can collect all kinds of data whether it's to astrology or science or whatever and you may never have the answer you know the answer may still elude you fair enough i can i i can personally attest to that and where else might we go can we should we tell people about should we share with you about all this work you've done do westley this is do westley story westley meeks fascinating this story the first question i have to ask and once they hear the story everyone will ask the same question is tell me this is for real tell me verify this because this story folks it's just crazy crazy story do we know do we know this guy's for real he is he's uh robs talk to him yeah over several years i've communicated with him and he's a he was a police officer for 15 years and he worked in child protective services four years became a private investigator i think for several years and then he now is does security and surveillance at a texas he's from texas and at a texas hospital which is current job and his experiences started when he was 10 years old when he was in coming from i think it was a fourth july family event they were driving home in central texas and uh they were the only car in the road dark and suddenly there was this green light about 500 feet in front of the car and a change colors green blue red uh and uh he was there for about five minutes as they they didn't know what it was and then it vanished and like he was very interested but nobody in families seemed to be curious and wanting to talk about it anymore after that so just to add detail so he has like two brothers or something in the car and it's yeah he had a couple brothers right and parents uh and after that he started having out of body experiences which he had he had no idea what an out of body experience was his first one he had lifted up from out of his body and he saw floating near the ceiling and he saw his brother getting up to go to the bathroom and then brother came back and was shaking shaking him for him to go to the bathroom and that's when he came back down into his body and that was his first experience so he told his brother and his parents uh brother laughed at him and his parents got mad at him for telling stories uh and or just i think the the father was upset and the mother said oh it's just a dream you know nothing to it and but he kept having these experiences and then he didn't he stopped talking about him to anybody uh for years that's the problem you know for years he he had these and uh then the uh he was i think he was still pretty young when yeah when the when the aliens got involved they would uh he had uh he describes one experience where there were seven or eight of these small beings four to five feet tall surrounding surrounding his bed and they lift him up now i'm not sure whether he is out of body or in his body uh well from the account from the account the way i read it and it's one of the things i want to ask you about because later when he's married his wife it feels him physically moving from the bed so he has some evidence that some of his out of body experiences aren't even out of body he's in which is also some of the day did we get back from uh encounters alien contact stories it's both so sometimes it's his consciousness moving outside of the astral travel thing i was just reading it over and i think now was he out of body or not uh we uh two of them lifted him took his arms and uh they're hovering above the bed and spinning him around and around and and then they they all surround him and they uh he's in the center and they spin around him like uh sufis or damson sufis uh and i don't know what they're doing and uh but uh maybe just working with them uh you know just like this uh susan woman that were the veterinarian the veterinarian uh has similar unusual experiences with the experience and uh so yeah then he uh started doing these explorations on his own it doesn't always involve et's and uh one time back the bar oh yeah we love this story this is you know this is an unusual he feels that he has developed the ability to manipulate matter while out of body so he goes to a topless bar and he sees another guy who's out of body at the bar that sounds like a joke but so uh the waitress walks by and he reaches out and grabs her she's wearing these short shorts grabs her hooks under the band pulls down the shorts and the underwear down to her knees she drops her drink spins around looking for the drop doesn't see anybody and then the other guy who's out of body he just shakes his head like very strange story uh you know let's add a couple things to this story because it's going to get even even wilder and it's a way that people love to kind of engage with this particularly in the way that you guys do it because i first wanted to establish that you know this is somebody you've actually talked to it's a real person and he does have this background police is a cop you know trained observer the other thing that correct me if i'm wrong but at some point he verifies with his brother and his brother says yeah i didn't want to talk about it but yeah i remember that experience too i remember that first encounter on july 4th and i you know and you hear this over and over again with families you know where everybody just kind of buries it or sometimes it's subconsciously buried but there's reason he has independent verification that some of this stuff happened and then the other part like you mentioned hit later he gets married and he has verification of his he's complaining he's sharing some of this stuff with his wife and then at some point now he's moving off the bed and he's cold as ice when he comes back to the bed so there's kind of this contact with the physical world and then we launch into these other stories that you're telling like with the bar thing is unbelievable and then now what happened or is the what happens in the astral realm stays in the astral realm that's that was really surprising i told what you screamed for that story and he said what you know we're thinking of this place of knowledge the akashic record he decided he wanted to go to the akashic record and so he goes off into the cosmos soaring it's he says it started like a star trek episode where you go everything the stars are like lines you're shooting through space and then he he thinks about what he he thinks of the akashic record as this vast mansion he thinks about the mansion and then he slows down and stops and there's this mansion he's hovering above it and he says it's hard to describe it's so huge and so beautiful and there's all of these different rooms and each room has this incredible large base on it that has this art and it's just incredible and that that's the stories of the individuals each one each person has this supposedly has this room in this vast mansion and so we're waiting you know i'm waiting to hear this what's what's all the knowledge that he's gaining and then it turns into something else completely that he goes down in the center there in the plaza area and he he meets this older woman wearing this long dress and uh she she approaches him and uh kind of acting like a guy and at some point she tells him that i'm not really an older woman but i can change my images to uh i i feel comfortable like this and people don't recognize me and he didn't he said i always wanted to ask what why he's was concerned about being recognized she was being concerned about being recognized but so anyhow in a flash she uh she changes and she's a younger woman uh and uh very she was an average looking i guess i love the way you know the details of what he tells because first let me just add a couple of things one is that he really is she really is sharing some deep knowledge and there is this kind of telepathic download where she's able to answer all these questions so right what we normally say with a spiritual higher ordered being and then she shifts and he goes like such a guy you know such as this guy yeah she was hot you know she was pretty good you know she was super hot you know but yeah she was pretty good looking and suddenly they don't have any clothes on and then he wonders did i ever have any clothes on and uh and so he can tell that she wants to have sex and this we wrote about this on our blog in several different episodes and it became very controversial some people are very upset by this story according to the akashic record and having sex and they thought this was some kind of lower being that wait a minute because he doesn't have he doesn't have sex here i mean no he has an orgasmic experience has the most amazing and and also you know talk about tawtrick stuff he's not talking about it just in terms of sex although this is the guy who likes to out of body trail the topless bars he's talking about it as true spiritual union of these this is just levitation sex i mean everything you could buy omni magazine here baby i mean this is prime stuff you know so it's it's all that that that stuff that that kind of touches on all these things and then also i want to emphasize the other point which is to me really important like you post it to your forum and you get some really smart people and some deep people on your forum who are going hey i'm you know i have spirit communication abilities and i think this is a lower realm other people who know not necessarily so we're going to talk a minute you know people need to check out your blog because you guys post a lot of this stuff there it's an ongoing community and there's some deeper thought that you guys follow up with on that so i'm sorry but i want to share all that because it's fantastic please continue the story yeah well that's one of the women who who comment on this uh connie canon we talk about her in aliens in the backyard because she's had a lot of experience with with abductions and out of body travel this kind of thing and she felt connie's thing was we don't really know how complicated the other side is or how complicated you know when you go out of your body we don't we don't really know and you know the matrix of reality is is vastly complex and she's had experience with somebody one of her former doctors who became very very close to and she had contact with him in a sexual manner and she said that it was similarly incredible like nothing beyond any kind of sexual experience that she has ever had and that's the same thing that that he said you know i just want seemed to go on and on and it was just kind of makes you want to die right well i i think that i love the openness that you have about that because just in the sense that i think it it's to me the only way to really understand even to begin to understand the data is to look at the possibilities and take i don't think we have to take everyone's story and give them equal weight that's not what i'm saying but when we find like you do people and you vet them the best you can and you get these accounts i like the way you guys are able to just lay these out in a book and then say okay you know they don't all fit together perfectly with one answer kind of thing and that's certainly the story with west meeks i mean and i'm not trying to pigeonhole it down and say well it either has to be true in this sense or it has to be that way so how does the story how does the story end you guys are still in contact with west he's still having different experiences but he's still in that astral realm kind of yeah but he's not he's a little frustrated because he's not getting out that much anymore and so uh he's uh last couple times i've talked to him he's he would actually like to be a psychic detective uh using his abilities and i told him that's a very difficult route to go because we we did some writing on uh an investigation of the psychic detectives and one man actually because he knew so much about this murder uh is the boston strangler case actually that he became a suspect uh all the time all the time i've talked to a bunch of psychic detectives on the show and if you're going to go into that field the first thing you have to know is you're going to be a suspect in every case exactly because you know it too much and because boston strangler is able to give him the talkest way into these women's houses and uh so now they thought without having to break in uh and now they thought well he's trying to talk his way into the police investigation too and this this good because he uh this this could be him and what they did is they gave him this truth serum of a combination this is George Hardy George Hardy right yeah gave him a combination of drugs that uh affected his nervous system for the rest of his life and we met him like 20 25 years after the boston strangler case and he was very still very upset about that and yeah not in good physical health i spoke with the medium not too long ago again just delightful person and somebody i really liked at the end of the day and respected but her first experience like this ties in a couple of the different stories we've been talking about already but she had an experience with her mom passing that opened her up psychically and then in this opening up a spirit comes to her and says i want you to help me resolve my case i was murdered and i'd like justice and you'll hear about this i'm sure you guys can attest you'll hear about this a lot from people who get into the psychic detective stuff and some people go there and some people don't she didn't want to go there but this spirit kept pestering her so finally she calls the local police department and says here's what i have and she immediately becomes a suspect but she's kind of got a family and she has a pretty good alibi so she's able to get over that but it's pretty upsetting in her life but the other thing that that happens with it a couple things happen with it one is it doesn't lead to a prosecution which is the other thing that that skeptics particularly have a problem with you know it's like well then you know they got him right it's like no they can give all the information in the world and it might not lead to a conviction because there's this whole legal process and in her case the detective after he retired from the case years later a couple years later contacted her and said i'd like to work with you more because we weren't able to do anything we think you're right about who you identified as the suspect but we weren't able to go there now i'm a private investigator i want to go there the other interesting thing about was it resolved no never and it never never was resolved which brings up a bunch of interesting questions again back to the you know what happens in the astral home stays in here they can't think this person who's stuck in the astral home is trying to resolve their case their case isn't isn't resolved it isn't meant to be resolved or whatever and so i mean do you have any any thoughts about that and also this medium had the ability to talk to et and i wonder why other mediums don't lead with oh yeah of course i'm talking to beings from other planets all the time but again that seems to be outside of the strangely outside of the the the swing zone for a while we had back in 1987 i think it was when adam walsh vanished a friend of ours renae wiley who was an artist in psychic was working with a cooper city cop and he wanted to drive around the mall where adam was last seen and renae was an impet and so they're driving along and all of a sudden renae started gasping and then she just started sobbing she said adam walsh was decapitated and about two weeks three weeks later they found his decapitated body no only found his head oh they only found his head that's so years later we were with renae a young girl had disappeared from green acres florida so renae says do you guys want to come with me to the police station see how i do this i said sure so we went to the police station she renae did her thing she handled the little girl's toys and eventually she led the police to this field that was pin stand and she said i think the body's in there and i believe that the boyfriend did it you know the other interesting thing about that story and in a way it kind of brings this pack full circle to the synchronicity thing doesn't it i i want to throw in marisa ryan was the the medium that i was referring to that and that her connection with et i think was really that is that she's she's talking to et and again it blows me away of you know why isn't if et is out there then why isn't every medium leading with and of course you know et is out there too and i talk to et all the time i think et should be on your show i don't know you know maybe maybe et has been who knows this and we're probably reaching the time limit of what people can bear to hear because we're going to go on and on and on this is we haven't talked about a lot of these topics so we'll have love to have you guys back on it yeah be great there's a lot more yeah there's a lot a lot more including rob and i are yoga bros and not only teaches meditation but he teaches yoga i didn't start doing yoga until i was 40 years old now i've done it for 31 years well that's awesome i've done it for a lot of years too and you mentioned you know i iengar and my first teacher in dalas was you know that lineage and actually brought iengar to dalas and whole interesting thing to talk about there i want to talk about the dark side because iengar was not a very nice guy and he was kind of kind of mean to some of his students and i even saw that firsthand in a little you know workshop that we did where you know we kind of had not evolved and so much with all those younger dogs that he that he did so the spiritual path is interesting and the the dark spiritual path why are some of these people who seem to be advanced seem to be doing some kind of pretty weird things which has an interesting link back to the west meek story and that we want to be perfect and he's not perfect but i love the way that he says he's not perfect but that raises a bunch of interesting questions about you know what is what is true spirituality what is there one other thing about west makes is that he had sent me his two notebooks of journals and i've gone through that he had taken notes after these experiences and it was very interesting going through them and when i got to the one on the akashic record it differed a little bit from his telling it because he told it like he didn't know what the akashic record was but he's saying that it was just this this place where there's this mansion of knowledge but in the journal he writes akashic record right at the top so you know a little difference like that but essentially the story was the same though and that he that he wrote that he had written and he may be telling his wife who threatened oh that's the other part of the story his wife was very upset when he found out that the the best sex was from the akashic record yeah well you know we have to throw that in i'm sorry i left that out because that's a great part of that story is it's so you know it's so human who writes this story down but he wants to write it down in his journal i guess that's given enough he wants to remember it he wants and he locks it up and his wife finds it you know this is like a question that like you know i don't have a lot of experience with these experiences i'm pretty dense but i have been able to lucid dream mainly through my son who was a lucid dreamer from an early age and was telling me yeah you know this this has happened so you know and it kind of sparked my curiosity and seeing if that's real and anyone who lucid dreams if they're honest about it one of the first things they'll talk about is you know what do you know can you have sex and then it raises that same question of what are your what are your obligations or your responsibilities responsibilities if you're married so our buddy west meeks he has this incredible sexual exchange but then he writes it down and his wife gets it and she's pissed off i mean that is in this real world right yep it's you put me a being human yeah and even this woman we're working with now who's someone who's veterinarians highly evolved person uh she goes out of her body and has a experience too grabs this guy and they start doing and she she writes it and very puts it right out front uh you know and she she wonders why i did that but it was great fantastic well you know the other thing i wanted to point people to when i just pulled it up synchro secrets dot com i've got synchro secrets is the other yeah you can see it up there but you really have to visit it just pulling it up there doesn't do it justice but i'll have links in the show notes to all of that in these books folks good books and you know if you're an amazon person and if you have the amazon unlimited like a lot of you i know have you're going to be able to now this isn't helping these authors out and we need to help these authors out but they've established a pretty good career so i don't need to worry too much about them but a lot of these books are available for free read on amazon so take advantage of that but you'll get a sense for well written books well researched books that deliver on what they promise so you know the seven secrets of synchronicity you can say oh gee you know that sounds a little well too worked over by the publisher but it really works i mean there's some good solid advice in there it's laid out in a way that you can follow it and then some of these other books are just incredible are known right tell us tell us more about before we let you go tell us more about some of the books that people find most interesting surprising rob you got to tell us about the indiana jones books people are not going to believe that you did that you also wrote a book with the jedi master billy t williams two books billy t williams and i work for church look this for two years writing seven indiana jones novels starting with the last crusade which i got the script i gave me the script and i adapted it into a novel and that was on a new yorkanist best seller list so they said well you want to try some original indiana jones novels and it was his idea to uh go back to like prequels before the movies the 1920s to do the 1920s and which is what i did in the six original ones and you know they they were you know pretty much open to stories that i wanted to pursue they didn't you know i have a lot of restrictions at all that george's thing is that the uh the mystical object has to be a real object uh that we know about from legend that you can't just make something up out of a whole cloth that it has to be like the umphalus in the peril of delphi the first one was an actual object mystical object and so that was pretty much it and uh you know those books were one after another four months to write one the deadline and then i had to start the next day on the next one and there were a lot of travel as indiana jones is you know i'm going all over the world and uh and we didn't have the internet at that time either when i wrote those in the early nine late eighties early nineties and uh but fortunately i my younger years i would work at a newspaper for a year or two save money and then travel overseas central south america europe uh north africa and so i had a lot of uh you know personal travel experiences and i always went to the uh to the to the ruins because when i started college i wanted to be an archaeologist actually and uh i found out that uh there are more more jobs in journalism and uh that's so i became a reporter i got a degree in uh mass communications and journalism worked on this papers for 12 years before i met rish and moved to freelance but i i would take these trips up to six months uh this time my own uh traveling uh different parts of the world and that really helped out for the indiana jones novels what do you think a lot of people are you're going to be super curious about that what do you make about maybe the deeper connection of indiana jones with all the other work that you've done do you think lucas was and is tapping into some deeper meaning there it certainly seems like he's on the on the verge of that the archetype you know um there's something special about the indiana jones character he is a legendary character and archetype of adventure and everybody knows him and uh you know uh that's how you know people ask me well what do you write about and what kind of books do you write and i i always tell him well you may not know my name but you're you're gonna know that one of my characters uh i didn't create the character but i i gave him part of his uh early life uh and we got to go to skywalker ranch which i'll tell you were amazing and it was in the days before they had security right that's where uh lucas uh uh at his headquarters headquarters production studio he had the most amazing library it was just filled with occult books it was round he had a ladder that went around the room and mayhem our daughter was only about eight months old i think we went and she she just crawled around on the floor and i said negan here's something you can tell your kids you got to go to skywalker ranch and crawl around the floor in their library that is a story to tell that is a story to tell well you guys have been awesome and thanks for sharing so much thank you you're really you're a great host oh uh it's it's easy it's easy when you pick the right guess which my audience did for me here so again first of of many chats because we really have scratched the surface but if you were in the dark about these amazing folks rob and trish mcgregor please don't stay in the dark go ahead and out and check out all their books y'all have a great day and yeah you too alex thanks so much thank you alex thanks again to rob and trish mcgregor for joining me today on skip to go and thanks to mike paterson for helping connect me with them and pointing them in my direction so it was a great chat i really enjoyed it i'm gonna tee up one kind of weird question here from all the different things that we talked about what do you make of the west meek's case i mean i think it speaks to so many of the issues with this interview one is are these researchers are these authors credible have they done their due diligence in finding this case because if we do take this case at face value it raises so many the questions we have about the extended consciousness realm i don't think it's wrong to question the trickster or the malevolent aspect of a spirit that gets involved in this way but maybe that's too narrow of a definition to think that all interactions we would have with some kind of divine god would be a certain way so it raises all those kind of questions it also raises a bunch of questions about the akashic field and the akashic records which i find incredibly oversimplistic in a way that makes me question and again so there's so many questions around that narrow little case that i find interesting and that's the reason i wanted to tee it up so let me know your thoughts on that i always point people to the skeptical forum for communicating especially with me and people who are really listening to the show and desiring to have greater interaction like i am about these topics skeptical forum is the place to go and you can get there from the skeptical website skeptiko.com there you can find all our previous shows over 400 of them that you can download listen to share with people you think should be hearing it well i have a number of interesting shows coming up do stay with me for all of that until next time take care and bye for now