 Welcome to Toffy TV. I am joined by the greatest goal I have ever seen in my life. Never shall there be one on it to have the big man in the studio. Dave Feely here as well. I'm going to try to keep Dave's input down to a minimum. I mean, there's probably more chance of ever winning an eight in a land field, but we'll see. Didn't even have to say the word. Anyway, I mean, I mean, just have, literally just have. Neff, on the tortilla about your everything career, because I've had loads of people always asking, can you get Neff alone and can you get on all that? It's not that he won't do it, he's just never up here. It's never worked out, but today the stars have aligned and he is here. So, can we speak to you about how it all came about? I was at a lunch the other week and you were talking and you were saying you played your first game for Barry and you were getting booed in the warm-up or something and I was like, what? But how did the move, because you started in Lon Lake, didn't you start in Winsford? Obviously I played up till I was 19 or 20. My youth I played for my uncle's team, so if we got a beat 10-0 it was a result. Oh, okay. You had a lot of practice. Obviously in school I played two years old, so I was always playing with older kids and at 12 I made my debut for my uncle's team in a man's league. At 12? At 12, so I didn't go down well because we played our local rivals Cormby. Somebody went round me and I tried to tackle him, obviously he was their best player. He broke his ankle. I just didn't go down that well with the whole party. So we played like that and then most of my time was stuck in the back of a... Well, sometimes we had a wagon and we all sat in the back of the wagon and went to put my liquor which was about an hour and a half away. And then we just opened the back door and we ran out and we got a beat 6-7-0. And then we just started laughing at us and my uncle was nuts. Right. Going. If we didn't have done well, being the man we were playing in the under-14s in the morning. Okay. We went straight into the man in the league and we were basically the same team. Or sometimes we went to the pub. I did this time and got a couple of players up. My cousin, to be fair, was my uncle's lad. He came out and played a couple of games in his Chelsea boots. Because we had no boots or anything like that. And he was a carp until he was in the footballer. And he could see why he was a carp until he used his own footballer. And I think we went there and if we hadn't done so well, my uncle would drop us off. A mile from the ground and say, run across here. If you're not at this point, I'm going to leave you. And training was like that. He'll in the great home. And he said, right, if you're not back here, I'd leave you. If you're not back here in a certain time. And he would, he'd just leave you. So he was going. Yeah, it was. You got the friendship? Well, we drove all the way. He got a man from London, no. To Dusseldorf to play a friendly. And it was a marathon trip to be fair then. As we got on to Dusseldorf, he'd crashed into some heritage car. And then we played one night. And then as we got back on the bus in the morning, he said, Do you want to stay here? No. He offered you the contact. He said, well, I want to sign you. But you didn't put that very well. Did you? I just wanted to go home. So Dusseldorf wanted it. He said like when I was like 14 or something, 12, 14. So I'm thinking. The funny thing is we played on the shale pitch. I thought it was freezing. And we were diving around on the shale. We were diving the little stone, staying in this game. Lovely, lovely. It was good fun. Do you not mean that? It was. We went on the next day for that. So we got there that night. Played the next night. Went on the next day. It was. From then on, the bus was about 40 years old as well. So it was like, I think it was about 36 hours travelling for an hour and a half. I don't even think we played an hour and a half to be fair. And in the middle of the night about three o'clock in the morning, my older brother was playing at the time. Rushed down and woke everybody up and convinced him it was seven o'clock. So it was downstairs at three o'clock. Seven o'clock? Oh, my God. So he was quite popular on the way back. Yeah, yeah, I bet he was, yeah. So all my things were like that. I remember we had to call his key when I went about to Bremvia. We got to beat 21 and everything. Got to hear for the goalkeeper though. Oh, it was great for me. It was breakfast everywhere. Yeah. But I ended up playing morning football for the school, afternoon football for my uncle. Suddenly morning, we had the skis in the street. He said, he's dead goaling, he was. And he went to me one day, I'm going to come for you tomorrow morning. We need a goal for a pub league. So I played the pub league. I don't worry about anybody else. Anybody comes here, that's it. They're having it. I was like, great, brilliant. Yeah, I'll be all right. And then Sunday afternoon I played for a local team. So I was playing four games a weekend. It was great to be fair. It was like that. Obviously, I had to make a decision because I went to Bangor City for the Filical Dave Elliott, who was decent. And he said, I wouldn't want to put me on trial. I'd never quite worked out. And he left, he got the sack. And then there was another lad, Skelser Peter Healds, who lived in Liverpool now. It was not too well now at the moment I think. He was playing and there was a few Skelses and I think Bob was Skelses. Yeah. So it was quite good. I watched them. He was confident lad. He didn't really could go any too far. And then they did me out of a tenor. They gave me a check that bounce for the tenor. I thought, there you go, thanks very much. And then I moved from there to Conwy United, Filical Glen Williams, and they made us pay three good weeks sums. It was brilliant because it was at Newcomer, but it's still going out. Newcomer, that was really good. And I knew you were Filical Johnny Williams. He was at Winsford, another Skelser. And he said, go and play friendly towards him this season for them. I played out. So I went to Ashton or something like that, and I did OK to be fair. Aside from the next pre-season, I never trained with them. I just trained on my own. I went for the games all over the place. I got back later, and he was going to go to them, but they were all Skelses. So he came in to bootle and saffled them. It was murder. Yeah, it went off, wasn't it? But it was great because I'd never seen him. The only Skels I had was on telly. I'd never seen him. I'd never seen him, and I was thinking, wow. Well, just the attitude is so different to what I'd been used to. It was great. Well, I never backed down like this, and just all I wanted to win, I think. It was brilliant. Felt at home with that. Well, I thought it was brilliant to be fair, because I think we played. We played a bootle or something like that. Well, we did 10 minutes. We did at least one place at all. So we're headbutting somebody. Just after we had that big speech about, you calm down, and we'll do this, and we'll do that. 10 minutes later. Off you go. So I think it was great. Once I was there, I know I would come to. I would knew me about me at Winsford, I think. I was lucky because a fella called Dave Connery, as soon as it barely came to the game, and he said, can I have a word? I took that, he gave me a look at home. I'm silent for this one. I'm silent because there was no motorway in Emberish. He didn't drive, he didn't. I was getting a train set up result. And then, two days later, I was looking for me up, and I was going to be a council house. If I went up there, he said, I'll change your mind. I'll get you a council house. He said, I'll get you a council house. So I said no, I've already made my decision. And then before I got to, he'd been sacked with a fella called, do you mind if you come in? So they promised to get me out, so I was carrying up to the pre-season, because I thought it's going to be our pre-season to be a murder. So I trained over there. I've run around me all my racing goblane, I've done all my own training. I thought, there's no way I'm not going to be fit when I go to these guys. And then my first training session was, he came out and he went right, last one behind a bush, or last one out of sight, sorry. So I would leg it and it'd be behind a bush, so my first ten minutes of the training session was behind a bush. I thought, this is a professional hub part to be fair. So he will watch and I said, I went to see Jim, I said, look, promised to find me out, you've found your own. We had time, me had we, so... OK. It was interesting to say the least, because we played a game, I was supposed to make my debut when I was ill, and then we were going to play somebody midweek, he wouldn't play me in that, and the following Saturday he said, make your debut, we're getting funny enough. We lost and went bottom of the league, I'm not sure. I don't think Roberto played in that to be fair. And we went bottom of the fourth division, as it was then, and then we were playing Not Forrest on Tuesday in the Cup, so we used to have to go in at half-five. Nice. And train, yeah, train, so sort of cut by six on the pitch, and then obviously we didn't play the quarter way, but on this day he decided to bring the lads in in the morning and train, and he run them, and he run them round the seventh circle. Right, we got to the game and we trained, and he went, oh, you're not playing tonight. I was gotted to be fair, and I had about 10 o'clock, I was like that, I got beat 7-0, and funny enough, I made my debut, I fell inside you. We had a fellow, which is similar to me and Jim Arn really, he had a fellow who was 38 John Forrest, he was a brilliant fellow, they'd been there years, and I went out on a Saturday to warm up, and I thought, fuck off. Oh, that was in the warm-up, because he liked John. Yeah, he was there. And I thought, okay, fine, that's what we want, and eventually got on the team and stuff, and I did okay. And then I ended up in the following pre-season, we went to the paper, there was a few clubs in, so I went back to Jim Arn, he said, what's going on, he went, you ain't going anywhere. He paid him 6 grand. So we came back in two or three days, so I went back in two or three days, it's been sorted out. I've no idea how much he paid me, and he said, I'll give you a lift to Liverpool. And as we drove in, it was all on fire. It was quite nice to go through the burning buildings, police barricade, they were all thirst for me. The riots. They were all thirst for me. They were all thirst for me. It was great for me to be fair, and then I got down there an hour to break. This is how much you're getting. I was only going to 50 quid a week at Berry, but I was on more hard-carried. I knew when I was okay, if I didn't take the chance, I'd never know what I could play. When I sat there, I thought, well, I know I can play at this level now. So worst case scenario, I'd go there, and then come back, and I got to see how, and he said, I think you're raising some light to him. I went, okay. I sat there, sat there. He said, what do you want to eat? I said, I'll have some beans. He said, I'll have a steak. I said, I'll have a steak. And he went, let's go out now. I hit my laundry. Once you picked his face off the floor. He said, I'll see you later. The thing is, because I didn't drive, he picked me up a few times. So my first few weeks were a nightmare. I even got in a car with him. I listened to Terry Wogel all the way in, and stuff like that. I'd get in, and then somebody else would be with me to Manchester. So it was a long day for me to be there. Until we actually moved in. I remember at the end of the first season, I went to see him and said, look, any chance of a rise, you won't get out of my office? Well, any chance of a fight, you won't get out of my office. I was like, okay. I said, I'll get out. I felt nothing. It could be a bit more technical. It's half above just chase, you know. Remember, you made your debut against this switch. It was actually on, it was a televised game, wasn't it? Well, it was on the highlighter on on the Sunday. I think it was the first time we'd walk half near for the TV as well. And we beat them 2-1. I remember we went 2-1. When did you know you were playing? Was it on the day or? 2 o'clock. Was it just before? 2 o'clock. You make your debut for a team, I get them. On the ground, I get them. You'd be stuck waving bonkers if you weren't there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, there was a thing about all, you know. And I think sometimes it's nicer for people to know than I do before. Yeah, so you can settle into it and know what you're doing. Oh yeah, I was going to play. There's no way of getting around playing, is it? So, that was if you're going to go, I don't fancy it at all. I'm one of them. I drive an old plane and I'm quite happy because I can do my own building stuff. Yeah, yeah. He was doing it for the right reasons. You can't knock on it. It was interesting to see this. Again, when I'm walking down the tunnel, I think, well, there's two choices here. I walk down this tunnel while I stay in the dressing room. But I'll never know if I stay in the dressing room when I've got to walk down that tunnel because I want to find out about myself. So, I was going to say, what did he say to you at the first when you won? And you came back in, what did he say to you? Well done. What was it? So, I'll overplay him. If that was who he was, he'd be quite serious, couldn't he? I suppose I would. I didn't do anything wrong. I didn't do anything great. He said, well done. Well done's enough for me because my debut was won. I've let a goal in, but we've won. I'm really happy. I always knew that he wasn't going to play in the next game anyway. So, he didn't really need me, did he? So, he'd already mind his man, which is fine. I got in and out of the team, really. I don't need to talk about the commentary game before when it really came out. In the morning of that game, he pulled me in the office and said, look, can you guarantee me a clean cheer? No. How can I guarantee that? I went right, OK. But what I did know, he'd already pulled you out. And asked you. And asked you, and Jim went, no. Jim would have said, yes. Jim would have played in that. One thing, just looking back, because obviously you come in as one of the Magnificent 7, and was literally the only Magnificent 7. Most of them got shot, remember? Most of them got shot. Day one was great. Maybe day three. I went to leave. This is great, but you were the one that you were the Magnificent. That just shows you how much our club hasn't actually come down to the idea that you can't sign a lot of players pre-season, because every time we've done it, they call in sign of five. You did, you did, you did. God knows how many of these lot of signed pre-season. What do you call in sign pre-season? He's done the same. We've had six and seven, the last three pre-season. What does that tell you? We have, like you say, historically, we have done that, because I can still see the picture. We have five golfers today, you know, six foot one with trash five feet. It's never gone away. And I told Mick Walsh. Mick Walsh was all right, all the sense of back. They were kind of... I gave you this. I spoke to the guy for many times, because he was my mate. He used to bring this up quite a lot. And I said to him about that time he just went some, it was transition. He said but I always knew when he just said then he put me in, then he dropped me. We got beat on the way up here. He drove me here today. And we were talking about the five-mil game. And I said to him, I've still never met anybody. He was in that ground that day. He'd come out and said, that's gruffy, get you to save the this one or that one. He was our man of the match. On the Monday, the gaffers sent him out on loan to Port of Fair. I was going to say, went out on loan. I forgot about that. I've gone out before on loan. No, I went to hospital because I used to have really bad toes. They used to ulcerate right down to the bone. The blisters. Just to get a bit calm. They'd be holding my toes, which is no. It's usually because I was supposed to be using my hands. But... You had to stand up down there. They took me to hospital. They used loads then with the nuns and stuff. So I actually spent two nights in hospital. My little toes taped apart. They painted his gents of violet stuff on. This is all we really just see them in all the bad stuff. See what it just needed. I spent that. That's why I went to some of the cup panels in his suit and flip-flops. Because my feet were that bad. All's I needed was a sherlock to cut the dead skin off. That's how the first age changed to me. I spent the first couple of nights in the lodge and it is quite weird because obviously they have a service early in the morning and I had the first two nights. I thought I was in heaven. I was walking through the lodge. I thought I was dead. The other time I had an operation and they were off my knee. I didn't remember coming around for an operation. I thought... There was somebody singing his angels. Angels are singing bright lights. I thought I was dead. Eventually I realised where I was. To be fair, they must have hated me there. Because they said to me I had a piece of chip off my kneecap. When I woke up beside the bed it was like a brazil nose. A little bottle mixed in the bed because they think obviously you want to take it home. Why would you want it? They said to me, we're in two days you can go home. So me being a sort of quite calm person after about a couple of hours I thought I've had enough of this. I could cause murder in the place and all the nuns were at the bottom. It's not like you. No, it's quite calm. It's just old. You've told me two days I want to go. So you can't go till you can reach your leg off the bed. So I did the other leg. No, no, that one. This one. It was a struggle to be fair. I just wanted to get out of there. I put my misters in to try to calm me down. They said no, you've fucking told me. You've told me. You've fucking told me. I think I should be swearing at these nuns. Oh, this audience anyway. But it's not the greatest thing. It was all right to be fair. When I first got to Everton you could see that there was going to be mass changes and there was a lot of young kids there. It was a funny time for me. I'm thinking, you know, me being stupid I sat in my house and thought if I'm like the first to be by Christmas I'm going and luckily I think I got in. Not before or after that. I don't understand the reserves. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to be in the reserves. If I'm in the reserves at Everton or Man United it doesn't matter, you're in the reserves. So I want to go and play. And that's probably a stupid attitude to have. No, really, because you played a few games with the club in the end, didn't you? Yeah, yeah. You would have driven, mate. Obviously if you had that five-nil thing you wouldn't have been like you should have before. My profile was great because Portwell was like a step back to where I'd been. We had some experience players and Bob Newton and then I went for it and it was just brilliant. When you look at the phone and Bob Newton and he was just boom. Nobody would have been physically better than Bob. And then I would have been around a long time and he was great and he was big like me going the ball up. He was awesome and the back was great. He should have gone on and done a lot better to be fair because he was the top centre half in all things and he had Jimmy Green off in midfield. So he was the manager. John McGrath. Gaffer told me that when he sent you to Portwell I said to him saying he was the best player. He got B5-nil. Ask any Everton who's seen the game he was our best player. He said I knew what I was doing. He said John McGrath did you just say that? He said mate a man. He said I knew when I sent him there that he was kind of going to pull his arm now. Introducing to characters like each other. John McGrath was never one foot. No, but what he meant was you said it before taking it off the 5 man. Brilliant fella. So he knew what he was doing. I thought Glenn Keely was their best player. He won't stay on the table. Not much he could say. Only lasted 90 minutes to be fair to him. I'll just stick to that. Sometimes it comes out of bad. I went back to Portwell. It was a really good time. I went back to Berry. And we beat 1-nil, which was great. I think sometimes nobody in football has a great life all the way through. It's impossible whether you get an injury or you have family problems or whatever you have. Sometimes you need to go back to think that's the way we grew up and go back again. I know John McGrath told me he tried to buy me. And I told him to go away politely. So I think John Rudge was there as a coach as well. It was good for me because the lads were you don't want to play in a reserve sometimes at any club. It don't make a difference about the results. It doesn't matter. But then it made a difference to them about the offices. And when you see them going out and we had Barry Siddell was the goalie that I took his place because he was running on the training ground so I wanted to crash him on his head. You can't buy that. You just can't buy it. I suppose that gives you that desire to what you might not want to do. This is what it's about. This is what it's about. It's about a group of players who are really desperate to win. Been around. I haven't been somewhere like that. But they've given everything they had every single time. I thought they did have a fantastic spirit and I thought this is brilliant to be fair. This is what it's about. This is what it should be about all the time. They work hard every day and then they do this and they do that. This is brilliant. No matter what stage of their careers they were at, they were at. You need to be quality, you need to be this and you need to be driven. They were all driven players and that's where they stayed around all the time. So you got back in but there was still a little bit of a fight with Jim Arnold wasn't there, even the 83-84 scene? I was lucky with Jim because Jim was a brilliant fella and again he told me something that I'd never experienced. That's every week when he's back going and nearly getting in the squad and I figured if that was me I'd be punching the physio by now because there's no way in the world that I could have his patience when he sat there and he taught me something and he said, how does he get up on that table and play that well? It can't be physically because Jim looked like he'd come out of a good start for three months. Jim Arnold too. But mental strength and I looked at Jim and I thought how can you do that? Your mental strength must be something else and Jim was never enough that he wouldn't call himself an athlete but he was brilliant. It's just his down to a approach to everything that was like I mean he did something. Just calm. I can play and I can go out and do this and if I had to come back on here on Monday I'd have to come back on here and after he's gone that's brilliant Yeah, of course. I mean that season, the 5-0 season Arnold played it and filled his room and he was brilliant. That was the same season when we went to Man United and lost. He did have a blind eye. He had a blind eye. He was always brilliant on that. Because he'd come out of non-league as well because we both came out of the Rangers and he'd come in too. He was dirty old when he came to Everton. He brought from Blackburn and I thought it was great for me because I always had someone who I could talk to and it was never... He taught me some of that and John Forrest taught me some of that. John Forrest taught me that when you come to the end of your career you've got two ways to treat the next person which is really well or you can be a complete art and he was brilliant with me. When I seen Jim Jim taught me some of that how to be injured and then get on play. And then all the other things that I would approach things so I was lucky I had two really good fellas that I'd learned off had. When there was a Barry, I had Wolf McGinnis and he took me out on my own. He was just me and him in the afterings and he was brilliant. One of my first reserve games so Barry was against Lord of the Great Hunter and he had a fantastic player. Unbelievable. I always said we should go where the balls in the area then in the air, come and catch it. I don't care what he makes mistakes. So he gave me a lot of things to do and he was brilliant to be fair and we'd go out on the afterings and he'd do what we had to do. He was brilliant to be fair so I was lucky that I've always had people that have given me lessons so when I came to the end of my career and I had Thomas Myer and Paul Gerard and people like that it was easy for me to I just think back to how they treated me and it was easy for me. When I got injured I was out for nine months and when I had I had three epidurals to play and we played away at Middlesbrough and I think I had four injections because I couldn't move and then we came back on a Tuesday and I went to hospital on a Monday on my back. The funny thing is they let me drive home but you can't feel anything when you're down. It's not that funny actually. Maybe I don't know but it's funny. I thought, because I don't drink. I know it's right now to be drunk because my leg is drunk. Lex is drunk too. I said I need to go to the toilet first before I go and that was an experience as well. You couldn't feel anything? No. So I did that but then he said when we put your jacket in you should put it back in line. So it was quite good. When I got injured like that I cracked my rib in training and he said you've got to go and have an injection now. So I went down to some place on the hospitals. So you take your head and he said just give it a little cut on your back. He jabbed your back and cut your back a little bit like that. And he stick a probe in and then he frees you. So I'm there and I can see the thing on the screen and even go in there. I was wondering if the nurse is eating a bag of crisps. You're putting it for you. I was thinking it could all be out of me. Oh my god. We'll all stare at her. Stare at her and she's mung in crisps in the corner. And then we played. I think I got a kick. I got a kick once and Marshall caught me outside the box at Oldham and when I got home Saturday night I had all the, because of you were mouldies I had the full shape of the boot on my chest. So it was bad. Then we played Sam to the way and I said I'm going to give you some injections. So as I was sat on the bench and he's going to put the injections around here I'm thinking and I'll have to go take the piss out of the dock and he said don't do that. Don't put me off because I've never done this before. So I'm thinking okay, brilliant. So you've had a colourful injection wise I've had about three epidurals and I've done my ribs twice. Teddy said I'm going to do my ribs and treat the top and cut them all and he went and he had it go. But you can play on. I've dislocated my fingers. If we played at Norwich we'd have to hate playing at Norwich. Because the first time I went there I thought it was a lovely place, a brilliant place. Then the woman went to get the ball behind the goal and some little kids spat in my face and I thought I don't like this place anymore. So then someone had a shot of bombs from 25 yards. I went through my legs and I thought I didn't realise it was stuck in the mud behind me. And someone ran in and scored. If you said that you'd have saved it. We played at Norwich away. I didn't know that story. I dived and I cut my finger so it split my finger open and discated my finger. So I wanted to put my finger back in. So I know it's bleeding there. I need to get this done. I walked into the dressing room and anybody just looked at me and said, I walked into the dressing room at half time. I thought, okay, so yeah. I think sometimes I managed to get it stitched and then I typed it together and played it like that. It was all right then. Only you mate, only you. But that's it. In them days it was like you must play and you must get back on. But the thing it did teach me is that when you do get injured you think differently because you know your limitations so you'll think your way through the game. But again that taught me something else. If I could do what it means, what can I do all the time? So I tried to learn then about thinking my way through the games. When I first got there I used to say to him, it's boring and it's boring because I was never doing anything in the games because he was coming after me with 1-3 and he'd go, well done. It's boring. I was so supposed to be. It was boring. Neville, stop it. It was boring. Oh, shut up. Just leave you to be. You were all right to be fair. That's how it was. But then I realised if I could put everybody in the position that I need to play like Terse then I don't have to do anything. So while it is boring I can work hard at doing the other stuff. So then he got to the stage where I worked really hard at doing that and shouting at people. Even though we might have won 4-0. Because you were that involved in the game. He plays on, Jack. He's a day for you today, won't he? After Storganised, at all? Because what people see is obviously not what goes on. Yeah, of course. It does become different. It is a different position to most of the others. It's a mad position. I like it because you have to take responsibility. That's on you, isn't it? It's your fault and I like to live like that. If it goes on, you're full on. You're in control, yeah. I think that's easier. I could blame 10 people in front of me but you can't really because it's your fault. If you dropped the ball in the goal and that's why I don't like when people see all the ball move these days. I can only do this. I can only put no. The ball moves every day and train it. It's not the frame of it. It should be better. What are your problems with the ball? When it comes Saturday, it's not somebody who's shocked when the ball bends and they go, oh, don't do that. It's bent on Tuesday and why are you expecting it not to bend on a Saturday? So, yeah, I think it's about learning. I wore the black shirt because I thought it was because if I was playing winter and midweek and somebody looked up to see where I was as a forward, it would be a lot harder to pick me up. That's where you were. So, you might buy me in a couple of seconds or you might buy defender a couple of seconds and you look at that and you go, okay, because you need another look. The psychologist is on £1,000 to do that. The psychologist is on £1,000. This is the fella that did where the red shirt don't go. He had no choice. He's going to explain to you now about your opinion. Let's go back to, obviously, you got in and out of the team. Obviously, you had to sign on loan. Come back. You did get in, you established yourself 83, 84 or so. You just mentioned that covent again. That would have been October 83, I think, on November. If you look at evidence history, that's down to a scouser. That's down to really. Because really you decided that he's going to run after the ball. When teams are having a bad time they drop off because nobody wants the ball and nobody wants to go and get it back because they don't want to get booed off the crowd. So really he went with stuff first so I was going to do one on with him and he ran after the ball. He got it and then he dragged Bryce with him and he got cheated and somebody else with him and the whole team was going that way and before long he was going, which was how he wanted to do in the first place and everyone then started to be positive rather than negative. And then things started to happen for you. He was special though, he was a special character but he could also play football. He could tackle, he could pass. By the way, I was there the first time when he broke his leg George Wood in the snow and before that he was like the top of the diamond score goals for you really before he did it like the first time. But even then he could still play. He was special. I don't know if you look at the really look as if we bought him out of one of them retired Graham's places. He looked like that and then he came on and that is quality. He was bubbly, he was enthusiastic and he brought that into the team and I think his enthusiasm and stuff like that and his will to win and if you ever read his book he's the best player in the height but he wrote it to himself. So there you go. You don't have to read his book whenever you see him, he tells you that he's the best player that I can book. When you look at the way he was brought up and stuff like that and I think again when you look at his what he played, you can see what he played. Again going back to the day I don't think people have that upbringing to be footballers anymore. There's very few who are that sort of upbringing because people stand on a lift now the majority of people have gone up. So I think he was a little terrier to be fair. I think again it was one of hours like sort of there's something here that I like. That I can drag out that he can be okay, we can manage him. You know I can be great. Would you have signed on me great well if he was a horse he would have shot him. They come here, I mean that Coventry game I remember there was 8000 of us standing in the street and we're getting beat 1-0. The right person came and you started snapping a few. My uncle Norman. Well it's under up, he was limping. I mean he couldn't take him off, he was injured. I think he crossed there and he had to really the last kick of the game but in the next round. When we came in after that game and I was laughing and I was like what are you laughing about? What? Because he knew I was that close to going out. That was it, wasn't it? But before the game the pressure on Howard was immense. Yeah, yeah. But he never mentioned it. When you hear somebody's voice and you can hear that every Sunday morning in kids football and when the manager shout you could hear the frustration in the voice and you could hear that you can do better than that with nothing like that in his voice. It was the same thing. Everything was the same. There was no change, it didn't matter whether we'd lost 100 games or we'd lost 1. It took the pressure right on everybody he was prepared to hear that. And then after the game it must have been a big relief to him to be fair as well but again, he will show it. But we had a dip again didn't we? Because I remember being at the Coventry game then at Christmas and we'd drawn 0-0 and all that and it's like you were looking at that team as a fan I remember looking at it thinking probably a little bit like now there's go players in this team it's just not happening for whatever reason it's just a blend now you're a fan but then don't but don't forget we went to Wolves who were crap and they beat us 3-0 but we were a jigsaw with one piece missing but then Birmingham people talk about age in it but Birmingham's the one we had to bear New Year we had a different quitter we had a quitter thing and we went in I think it was Monday or Tuesday and Stoke in the cup on us and we went to Stoke on Shatty and we remember getting there at 2 o'clock the Victoria Grand and there was just thousands of Evertsown Kingie out there with the cover because he pissed it off Kingie, yeah smoking he was doesn't surprise me and we went there at 2-0 Andy Gray scores Alan Evans scored we went 2-0 and then from then on we went on out in the league I think we were 18 games people get old down about today you don't take it much to change you're far closer than everybody thinks you are to change if you never find that one piece then it won't, yeah but if you do find that one piece it's just rockets I mean you put it down and you would listen you was a keeper with unbelievable and we had rackliff and people like that Mark Higgins was in it that time before he got into it but do you put it down to reading Gray or just to reading more than Gray because he changed the way the team went said he'd gone back and we went forward okay and that's key isn't it because I remember Gray's debut we'd be far as one they only set the goal up for him I think that the team had stuck with Howard Howard knew what he wanted but he also had the belief in the balls to stick with what he believed in whether it's so easy to go and change stuff so easy but he kept with his belief in it and he kept putting it along and eventually he just turned and sometimes he could turn in a match he could turn in who you bring on he could turn in who you take off he could turn in the goal and come off somebody's button so he could change in lots of ways it doesn't take much football's a funny game where it doesn't take much to do something and then you're off and running so you lose one of bounce so I think well the averages are you're going to win the fifth because it's a stick well it will if it's what you said before which is if you treat every game like you're one off I mean that Oxford United game you know were one million dan was eight minutes left and I think it's really actually who's pressuring Kevin Brock because Brock is who played well that night so if we were playing badly and we'd been in the country we would have another ten yards off he presses the first man then he presses on to Brock and that's why he knocked it back without another Aiden he's chasing it because where you're like you're saying if you're getting to and you're confident it's a lot you don't even see that when you're negative you don't look for things when you're positive you're always looking as a forward you're always looking to make things and you read things better when you're negative you look on the worst case scenario and say the best case scenario when you're positive you're looking on the best case scenario and he was looking like I'll take a chance here I won't stand still because I can't be arsed and I don't want to get pulled off the ground if I took the ball and I lose it so I'll take a chance and put it in there and then a week later we beat them four when we destroyed them a couple of times and we were on the thing we beat Villa Tunill in the semi and that lake over home and Kevin Ditties on the deal don't touch me broken wrist on all that but going away to Villa as a player was there any doubt in your mind we'd all be get through I never worried about any results because you never want to do your best yeah, yeah, true I wouldn't worry, I could we probably more worried, as fans because we can influence it what can I control in all honesty I can't control the way you game because I can't control this so I've got to control what I can control so I don't worry about anything else I just worry about me because if I do my best then that will help him and him and him and if he does his best he does his best I could only focus on me getting myself as close to perfect as I can what else could I do a lot of times to be fair but what else can you do and sometimes you don't want to get caught up and all that sort of stuff because that's nothing you can't control I can't control stuff because he's got his own mind I'm not going to be able to control them I can put people in positions where I need them but they're on my way over there because they're going to listen but I can't control how they're going to behave don't be able to stand to you as an individual and you've just got to go I need my preparation to be right and I need this to be right and I need to do the best I can and then what else can I do we lost that night one we got three to the final and then we had Liverpool we had home and Bertie's got half a score and we drew one more did you shave a pen in that I'm sure you shaved a penalty in it but we drew one more anyway and then we got that the milk of final a week later I suppose as a fan it was the occasion and all that at Wembley I mean I still can't believe we didn't win the game at Wembley and we had the handball by Hanson and all that did you feel at that game went at Wembley against them because they were the best team in Europe weren't they the European champion do it milk of final lashing it on like this which I was really happy with it wasn't boiled at all which can make a game of course I thought it was a proper derby absolutely was I think it was like someone who brought Liverpool as a city to tell them they'd shut the door it wasn't just that though it was kind of end to end and we weren't used to derbies where it was end to end even though there was no goals we weren't used to a derby basically when we all walked out it was like a fair boxing match that you wouldn't be able to call a winner that for us was already a step up just to be able to have rush bearing down on our goal and not getting a hat ring and us giving their goalie something to do it was just a proper football match so how did you feel about going to main road on the Wednesday then the replay were you just yeah the confidence there or again I think once we knew we could match him even though we got beaten in the replay we knew we could match him so that was our turning point really against them you were that good that went soon I can't believe it I can't I was thinking cos it was weird about the second game now I felt as watching as a fan it just wasn't the same as the second but we were still alright we were alright we were better on the Sunday we were better Sunday but I'd seen you've got to remember that they were more used to they were experienced but I'd also been at the Clive Thomas one seven years before and by the time the Wednesday come we were not only good as the same like that we were already beaten by the time it was embarrassing that one was a different one and I suppose you come out of that I remember going into school the next time you get the stick don't you don't you don't know that but I remember thinking where a good side now so someone had stopped me on the way out and said we've got a team now get your head up cos I was gutted that night again something bad something good came out of it so everybody keeps looking at negative the positive thing is that we realised that night that we could match him and that was more important than a result to be fair and I think the feeling of just more we aren't having this anymore but we also had to stay at the other cup that was what it was Shaltamine, Shaltamson to be honest for me more important was not counting the round because we went there to those who were flying it was horrible day like this it was horrible tight little ground and you go away there and the blue socks on and everything difficult to score a final of the cup you can't enjoy the game there's something wrong with you so you come from a different angle you're there to do a job you're there to enjoy doing it to live through the emotions that we can control and you can and that's really hard at the end of the day we can't afford to get caught up in what you're experiencing cos it's pointless and it's a different thing we end up losing that's what I think when people go when they go to when they're going we're going to enjoy the day go and win then enjoy it you don't enjoy it if you win till it's finished I think both of them it's much easier to win you made everybody happy the thing is when you walk around once you've won you can see that the joy is that it's broken so when you lose you realise what else to go on through there that's what you brought to everybody else that's quite a thing to carry on my shoulders you can't do anything to that after game and that feeling of losing you don't want but again you can use that feeling for the next time so what was the feeling when Aiden needs to go to high because you'd already made some big saves in that game anyway cos they were a good side as well look you're talking about a different you're talking about an area where nobody went anywhere to defend nobody had a thousand passes to get it out of their own half it wasn't played like that we want to win the game you want to win the game if we're back then that's fine it's going to be physical but it's going to have a lot of skill in it and we're all going to graft whatever happens at the end I thought it was just another good game hot day we were friends in really good football we knew we had loads of support they were a good team but we probably shaded in terms of quality the thing was though we won in the last minute that's something that never happened to us it was literally extra time it was basically extra time but it was the end of it we didn't smash them an extra time but my point being that was like that was my favourite game personally that hasn't been played at Goodersham Park and I've ever been present and I've been present at a few to be honest that is the day because the antithesis of what has always happened to us losing in the last minute and it never wasn't that it was the emotion the players talk about it and the film funny enough specifically it was like after being beaten by Liverpool in the replay I haven't played so well at Wembley that was the perfect injection to us it was like right let's get down to work that much show that when we went to Wembley in the final as a fan it was totally different because of what you said Liverpool yeah alright that was done but we're here again and we haven't wilted we've been strong again we were going to that favourite and we were at about a team but they were really awkward as a team to be honest and they had barns as well big save for them a barns they had to slide away by the way and then the one that shaved the post so you're looking at them and you're thinking we need to do a job here a professional job and that's hard as you're driving up and you see all the people because you get quite easily carried away with all that sort of stuff so as a player you've got to think really here at Wembley there's over a million people watching but at the end of the day what we're here for we're here to do this job and we need to do it and it's the focus you need to keep because you've got to stay focused and you've got to come on the pitch you've got to believe you can when you've got to do the job and I thought we did it without being outstanding outstanding I thought we did a real professional job and I thought that was another learning curve for us because we were favourites and to be favourites which we weren't in the other competition to come through that and go right okay we'll treat this time we are favourites but we know how to win it which is good for us because we weren't the underdog anymore we were now favourites what for they were in our place in the milk cup basically so you can always take things out of situations we won as favourites and we drew as underdogs by the way two Wembley appearances no goals conceded from my big mate over here by the way for the first goal that wasn't bad either