 Good morning everyone once again. So this is our second day of our four day virtual refresher training on market analysis and development. And then I wanted to go quickly through the agenda today so we're going to have a quick recap of our first day and then we'll have a very short discussion about the preparations for phase two of MA&D. And then we will talk about the three different steps in phase two. So we talked yesterday about why we would want to build capacities for MA&D. I'm not going to go through this again, I just highlighted in pink the most important bits so you can see sustainability, you can see business incubation unit and FFPOS, you can see entrepreneurial thinking, etc. And then we also talked about the core principles, the basic principles of MA&D such as its focus on empowerment and participation to allow entrepreneurs to build their skills in developing and importantly adapting and sustaining their business. Another important principle is that MA&D is built on the idea of sustainability and we talked about the five areas of business development that are taken into consideration by the entrepreneurs in each phase of the development of their businesses. Another important principle of the MA&D approach is to help shift entrepreneurs' thinking and approach from selling to marketing. And we touched briefly on the importance of strategic alliances but also we talked about the role of two very important players in the whole MA&D process. We talked about the role of FFPO business incubation units or support units that will play an important role, especially in the preliminary phase in, and I've highlighted here various items that are particularly important in gathering data around different products and making sure that there are the necessary resources for the implementation of MA&D available where they would have to make sure that the environment is conducive to MA&D and they also play an important role in gathering and evaluating the facilitators and the EDPs that are produced throughout the process. And then we also talked about the role of the field facilitator, the second important player, apart from the entrepreneurs of course. And just highlighted here that the role of the facilitators really is in accompanying the entrepreneurs, not making decisions on behalf of the entrepreneur. So then we talked about some key activities in this very important preliminary phase and we discussed also that sometimes this preliminary phase is perhaps not considered to be as important, but it should be because this is where really important objectives or the objectives are defined that are realistic and adapted to the current situation in that area. And sorry, this is all in the to-do list of the FFPO business incubation staff. So that incubation unit when trying to implement MA&D or wanting to implement MA&D needs to also conduct some important surveys of the region but also at a national level and importantly also be very careful in the selection of field facilitators because they play a very crucial role in the implementation of MA&D. And we also talked about the things that field facilitators need to do before MA&D is being started. So they need to really have a very good understanding of the MA&D methods and tools and they need to also assess whether the conditions for the implementation of MA&D are suitable locally. They need to have a good understanding of the local context and also prepare the tools that they're going to use with the entrepreneurs and adapt them to the local conditions and to the capacities and language requirements of their trainees. So then we talked about the objectives of phase one and we said that this is the moment where the potential entrepreneurs identify themselves and reflect and express what their expectations are, especially financial expectations. They will also develop a first understanding of the available resources and products and they will start to gather information around the opportunities and constraints within the existing value chains and market systems. And I've put together a short slide just to sort of summarize a little bit some of the points that we have discussed in the various moments when we had conversations and discussions. And I wanted to also make the link to some of the issues that you may have raised in the pre-training survey. So I just wanted to emphasize again that many problems listed in this pre-training survey can actually be avoided by being careful and active in the preliminary phase. And it's really crucial that you consider your objectives and that where MA&D is implemented there are enough funds and resources to achieve those objectives. So you also need to consider about the number of people you want to implicate, for example. And in some cases, where the conditions are not right, there needs to be also the courage to say actually this is not a condition where MA&D can be implemented. So then you need to also take that decision. I also wanted to emphasize again that it really takes time to build up the confidence of entrepreneurs and this goes back again to the resources that you invest in the process and to allow people to really absorb what they learn and implement and try and test things and build up their confidence over time. And this needs patience. I also wanted to say that it's crucial that in this preliminary phase the project or the FFPO business incubation unit gathers information on the market potential for a range of products. So really be open in this first assessment and not restrict yourselves to one type of product. And sometimes local people are only aware of a few products or they might be pushed to only consider one or two types of products, but the facilitators should really encourage them to consider a wide range of products. Then I also wanted to talk here and written MA&D as a process, not as a goal that it's really important that MA&D is considered as so the objective of implementing MA&D. The objective is not to implement MA&D no matter what. The objective is to support interested and entrepreneurial minded local producers to develop their own sustainable businesses. So a top down selection of participants and setting boundaries around what these people should focus their activities on is really quite counterproductive and should be avoided. And then we also talked about groups and I'm very happy that Johnny and Sophie can join us and that we also have a few of the FFF facilitators because this is a discussion that we wanted to have with all of you. So just in terms of groups, we said that it's good to encourage people to decide for themselves if they want to set up their enterprise as part of a group, or if they want to set up a small individual business which is also possible and can be sustainable and can work well. And I think it was Isabelle who mentioned yesterday that sometimes when you have a pre-existing groups and there is this idea to develop a business together, you have to be careful on how you go about this because maybe not everyone in the group is capable of being part of an enterprise, wants to be part of an enterprise. And I just wanted to touch here also on one particular aspect that we saw in some of the EDPs in that sometimes there is some confusion EDP enterprise development plans. So sometimes there seems to be a confusion about how a new business sits within an FFPO, a forest and farm producer organization or a producer group. So there are some questions there around whose resources the business is based on, who will run the business, who is actually the business, who will profit from the business. So things that need to be clarified and I just, I'm going to stop sharing now because I'm really interested to hear about your experiences in this as produce organizations or members of produce organizations and business development in that context. Is there someone who would like to maybe recount their experience and how this works well or maybe where there could be difficulties where you face challenges in setting up a business from within a group? Hi Kata, joining from Ghana and first of all apologies for our absence yesterday. A number of us are here in Accra towards our national dialogue and today we have about five of us who have joined and I must say I think about two of us have had some MAED training myself and Clifford in their past and I really, it sits well with me when you said we need to be able to choose Gene whether you want to set up an enterprise as a group or individuals also setting up small businesses around what you can do. And I think that is very, very useful, especially for us working with small producers organizations. There comes a time where probably some individuals also want to set up certain businesses around the enterprises that they want to focus on. And there's a need to be able to do a clear distinction between what you are doing as a group and individuals in terms of what they want to do in terms of their businesses. And so I really agree with you. We need to be able to identify such cases and be able to apply the process in both cases that is for groups and also in terms of individuals in terms of how they want to apply their business plans. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mark. Yes. Yes, that's a very, very good recapping of the importance of making sure that both structures receive attention or both both strategies receive attention. I could see Clifford's hand and then Joffrey please. Okay. Hi, Clifford from Ghana. Apologies, just to join to what Mark already said. With groups and individual businesses, I think as a facilitator we actually need to be able to understand the context or the cultural dynamics of the various groups that we are facilitating. In instances where we go with the assumption that we want to facilitate a group enterprise and then you end up setting up the enterprise and then the groups are not actually running the enterprise. We have had instances where we set up enterprises as groups, and then subsequently realize that the groups are not really committed to running the enterprise. Based on internal issues, because some people feel they have not been directly part of the process, and some other feel that there is a hijack by individuals within the group. And sometimes there is that conflict that comes with running this group enterprises. So we have in the past considered even to the extent that we thought it was important to privatize some of those enterprises, especially those that had to do with running of corn mills. We thought of bringing on board individuals who are private entrepreneurs to run it and then the groups probably would take what we call it rental fees. So the private person will have to look at paying either annually or monthly for the usage of the facility of the group. So that the groups are only receiving returns from what the private person is paying. In that case, you need to also have a benefit sharing mechanism that is clear enough to make people feel comfortable that whatever the revenues is going to be accrued to that particular enterprises. This is going to be the process for sharing the benefits that is accrued to it. So once you have those benefit sharing schemes also well developed and established, then you are good to go. So like you said, yes, we need to actually look at how to manage group enterprises and also how to facilitate individuals. And there was one important point you raised earlier, which we were looking at the setting up enterprises and identifying a wide range of products. In the past, we just limited to one product, which was really a bit difficult because FFPS are engaging many different products. So if you limited to one product, what happens to the other products? So I think that point also you made was very, very important for me. And I think, yeah, thank you. Thank you Clifford. Some really interesting points you've raised there and I'd be really interested also to hear about other examples of how you've managed to find a solution for this problem where a group might not be ready to run a business as a group. And Clifford gave us an example of how they've set up these cornmeal rental arrangements. Thanks, Carter. I think my question or comment is also related to what Clifford has just said, and it's about where you have a group and these group members have conflicting needs in terms of the enterprise you want to set up. And I think in that way now it is the role of the facilitator to help them to understand or maybe do some kind of ranking of the products so that maybe they can agree or pick the best or the most profitable in terms of the market. So I think in that case, and then it is the role of the facilitator to help the group members to understand. And again, I think that the other thing which Clifford has said is about the benefit sharing and a good example is in one of the athletes that we are working with we have a group nursery. And two months ago, we went there with my colleague who is also in this meeting, Edwin, I mean in this training. And I think there was this lady who was openly complaining about, you know, she was saying she spends the most hours on in the nursery. And so in terms of the benefit she thinks she, you know, she needs to be considered, you know, more than the others. And I think this, her concerns were very genuine, because now she's, she's doing most of it. She's spending most of her time in the nursery. But when it comes to sharing benefits, the other members also want to, to benefit. So so the issue of the joy riders also in the group, which I think is also very, very important to consider. Then my last, my last point is about when you are considering products like a range of products. So would that be as a strategy to, to, to the risk that the enterprise in terms of like you have, if one enterprise fails, then you have, you know, like you have a fallback plan, or it can also be like you are trying to create multiple income streams. So so the issue of like, like, why should it be important to consider a wide range of products. Yes. Thank you, Jeffrey. Just on your last question. This is my understanding also that, and the two points though the two reasons you phrased actually closely related. So to have multiple income screen income streams also means that you're de-risking your, your, your enterprise. But it's, I think it's also about making use of the resources that are available to you and finding perhaps niche markets, and for products that are perhaps not, not considered by everyone. But maybe also these available and, and Jack would like to come in on that. Yeah. Yeah, this is a very key point actually, and it's, it's a key point, which has to be considered especially in phase two. Why it's interesting to have a range of different products is also in order to respect the social nature of the group. You may have in the group or formal or informal, different type of potential owners who have different needs. And Clifford actually mentioned that. And you may have women who have some limited time or cannot go find a forest, etc, etc. You may have also elders, or a very dynamic young entrepreneur minded people. And we should try to, as a facilitator, we should try to see all the different possibilities who could feel the need of these type of people. And, and, and that means also different range of different products that we require more or less time, more or less investment, more or less education, and this actually should be very important to, to, to respect. That's why different range of products is important. And some at the end of phase two, when you rank this product, you can see that you have four or five different products who have good, good, good results. So, and it will be the entrepreneurs themselves who will choose what fits them, or because they have a long experience on some of them, or because this closer to their house, or whatever. And so that's why I think it's, it's a key point to not reduce the range of product so that they can fit the needs of different type of potential entrepreneurs within the group, or as individuals, or as a group. Isabel, then I could see your stand up from Togo. Thank you very much. Good morning, everyone. My name is Yao from a farm as an organization from Togo. I had a question. But with the intervention from Isabel, I got part of the response. It was about the number of products to consider. An average number of products to consider. Before intervention, before she took the floor, I understood that we need to talk about or consider about four or five products. Taking into account the environment or the area. So, if there are no other products in the area, what should we do? Do we impose them? Yes, Isabel. Can I answer that question? Yes. In English, but you have the translation. Yeah. It will be actually depending on the specific condition of the site and of the people. In some context, you will have a lot of different products and a lot of different products could be derived from the actual resources in the site. That means, for example, from bamboo or rattan, you may have four or five type of products that come up. Yes, you can have furniture, you can have poles for constructing houses, et cetera, et cetera, and these become products. So, from two or three resources, you may end up with five or six products, which will have to be considered as different products. In some other context, because of the natural condition, you may have only two or three resources and products. So, it will really depend on the context of the local entrepreneurs, natural context, and also of the other factors that we have to consider during the analysis, including the market aspect, the communication transport aspect. So, when this analysis is done in more detail in phase two, you may end up with only two or three products, and that's fine. But you may also end up with much more. So, it will really depend on the situation. And it is that the facilitator should actually understand. But never restrict. What we are actually pointing is that, in some cases, all the government or whatever, they already have selected on the practice gets a type of product that they would like a lot of people to develop. And there is kind of pressure to influence people to develop it. And we, through ME&D, we say, okay, it may be one very good product included in the selection. But this, the development of this product may not fit to the needs of all the potential entrepreneurs in that of your target group. And if so, you can also see what else is there on top of this push product that could be developed and fit the needs of some others. That's what I mean. Thank you. Thank you, Isabel. Please, Jack. Please. For me, the concept is that we speak up to select an area with a certain number of people in this area. The idea is that we have to help these people to develop their business or to have an idea of business. They go to different steps, and they select a certain number of product. They go to the market and they decide what is the best product for them. Then after that, when they do their business plan, they realize, okay, I can do this alone, or I have to do this with others. If they have to do this with others, they make some type of group or a structure of an organization that can, okay, fit with their needs. I don't know if I am clear. So, if we, I will give you some example, I've been working in Malawi, and there were different range of product. They handle with some people who have done just a small product like who handled, you know, to go in the field. They prepare handle for the who, for the villager to go and to grow in the forest. And this guy has done his own job by himself, and he was very happy. He earned enough money for his life, and he was really, very happy. And there were some other people who decided to make firewood. They collect the firewood on their own, but they decide they saw that to transport the firewood from one place to another place. That was very important because they had better market, then they had to organize. They had to organize at the beginning on an informal group. And finally, they formalize this as a cooperative. All this idea of making group or not group or something like this or selecting a product or not selecting a product. That has to be done by the villager himself, or we can say the people who are interested to select business. They have to select the business after their wish, after they feel happy with. Okay, not as from other be happy and push them to do something. That is the first thing. And then after that, they have to see if to do their business, they can do this alone, or they have to be with others. Then at that time, if they have to be with other, I repeat myself, I'm sorry. If they have to do this with other, then at that time they make some type of enterprise, formal enterprise, cooperative or whatever you want. I don't know if I am. Yes, thank you, Jack. I just wanted to quickly, before I ask time to unmute himself. I just wanted to quickly comment that it is, of course, a complexity where there are forest and farm producer organizations and we support capacity development in all sorts of different areas, including business development. And so there is going to be always a sort of an entry point with producer groups. And I think there is something that perhaps we need to also look at as the FFF in in creating capacity development in how to manage an M&E process with an existing group. And I have something to share at the end of this discussion where there is actually a really good tool in the last tool of the forest, sorry, of the field facilitator guideline for phase two contains a list of good practices for groups. And I think some of the things that Mark and Clifford and Joffrey have touched upon in terms of issues in groups can be avoided by looking at these good management practices. And I can share that a bit later but I just wanted to give the word to Tang now please. Thank you. Good afternoon from Vietnam to everyone. Yes, M&E is a very interesting tool as we discussed yesterday. We'll come back with Qatar's questions raised for discussion. I think for Vietnam we have some airfields who very successfully applied M&E approach. And for Zori, they are still facing many difficulties. So because of Qatar's question regarding to their own challenges and difficulties in supporting airfields to implement M&E. I think the first thing we face and we need the challenge when supporting and convince M&E to apply M&E is because M&E is a tool with a long process. Well at first we invite many airfields to Zori and even same members to Zori. But because of a long process, it takes time to understand airfields, their product, their situation and we have to analyze very well and understand very well the M&E. If not, we can only identify potential and three hours only not in a group. That's what we have learned and we spend a lot of time to convince and support the airfields in working in a group. And the second thing we think that the very challenge for the airfields when they make a plan and doing business is that to understand very well the five areas of business development. Understand very well and identify their situation. Regarding this, I would like to share one experience of plywood timber processing. We support them, teach them and brought them to the market to see the potential of the back market. And after that they came back to their group to establish plywood processing factory. Everything is set and they already identified the timber, plywood timber is a potential so they focus on doing business. Everything is prepared but when they started, you know that the electric city, they did not foresee for that. So when they really wanted to start, but there's no electricity because in order to run the operation of the plywood machinery, they had to assess with very high voltage electricity. Sorry time you're breaking up every now and then could you speak up a little bit. Excuse me. Would you mind speaking a little bit louder please. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. I would like to see to share experience how to support everybody else to assess with the legal status. So they thought they can assess the electricity but at the end they could not. At that time, we have to work with different agency to help them to assess the electricity for example local authority and department of planning and development district level. And so why they cannot assess with electricity and which document can you please solve. So after that, luckily, finally, they can assess the electricity for their production. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for also for highlighting the need to be patient with and to allow it enough time for entrepreneurs to really build up their confidence and their capacities and understanding their own situation and their own possibilities. I would like to give the floor to Sophie. Yeah, hi. Thank you. This is a very interesting discussion about the group and the individual. For me, that we see and I mean do you, we see an FFF. When we work with groups, you have individual what we have seen in the reality when we work with FFBOs in the different countries, you have individuals coming together for something know they come together for because for social for economic reasons, they form a group. And they and so they are coming. And so based on that you can then work with them also on the business. But you have also, we also have situations where we work with groups, our entry point are the groups are the community forest user groups know all the groups that are working in in the landscapes with collective tenure. So the tenure is a really important entry point I think also that we have to consider when we just because that that also influenced the business and the motivation also I have to say in the end of the day. So, we have seen that that often it's easier maybe I don't know when when you have individuals who have tenure little plots of land. They see all we need. In fact, we are we are, and that's what we have been using for instance in Vietnam, your individual smallholder tree growers. In fact, if you come together, there is something but more to get out of it. economies of scale so you come together, and there is this motivation to get a business together. And if you have those situations where you have collective land, and you can pick out there the like the community forest community forest where we are working and they're not everybody in this community for not all these users are part of the business so you have a little bit of an issue there. So, how are you going to do the, how are you going to pay for these natural resources that come from this collective forest, and you are only with three people doing your business or what kind of model are we going to sudden place are we are struggling with this every every time you know, because it is, it is, it's the entry point that is really, is really, I, at the end of the day I think is is is important and you like with the collective land, the community forest, at a certain point also, you have the mix because we cannot have enough produce in the in the in the forest. Let's now start to also include in the business our private land and then it becomes even more complex. So I just want to say this is one of these, these entry points that that are making our work and as this is not so easy and then also what are the right business models for these kind of situations. Is it cooperatives, because cooperatives okay this is the model that speaks to the collective goods. But that's not always maybe the right way either so I'm just having more questions sometimes. But I just what I think this is very important to do this analysis also where are we starting from where from the natural resources that be used for our businesses. If they're really collected yes or not if they are produced domesticated are they in the in our backyard and are they actually produced as agriculture produce. So that makes also that is also these are also factors that are influencing a lot of our business model. So I don't have all the answers. Okay, but I think this is a really, really good discussion I'm really glad that we're all together and we're actually behind schedule in my program but I just think this is a really important point to discuss also while we have Johnny and Sophie with us. I guess one of the, one of the observations as someone who's relatively new to fff and and to the idea of group businesses is from hearing about your experiences that transparency right from the start is perhaps the most important tool to sort this out to to really as Sophie said to be clear about whose resources is the enterprise based on who's going to take decisions who is going to benefit and how and so clarity and transparency and how things are set up but then also being adaptable and having a process included right from the start where you can review your operations and review how happy people are with the setup to avoid situations where you start off as a group and then somehow it's not really working because some people feel cheated. So you need to also have a process right from the start where you review regularly whether this is still working for everyone and then adapt to the situation. I don't know whether this is a valid point. I was just wondering whether Johnny had any comments or inputs or perhaps some experiences you would like to share and then perhaps I would just like to share my slide and then move on to our main agenda. Thank you. Thank you. Isabel and Shaq for organizing this meeting. I appreciate that many of our facilitators are here and also the umbrella organization in the countries that we support. To me, it's very important that the FFF will support the service provision of these umbrella organizations to their members on this business if they want. So that is important. If this umbrella organization have the capacities to provide these services because most of the challenges of all the Apex organizations is this lacking of funding to do to be sustainable. They are depending on donors very much or other sources and the one of the key ways for the sustainability is service that the members appreciate that and of course this business possibility would be a very good source of funding to the umbrella organizations if do that in a way that the members appreciate. Therefore, we like this idea about this business wing in the umbrella organization. So it's important also that not the person who talks well is good in business. So, and also I don't think that there is a model for each country, but I really appreciate that in the countries I work with there are some different ways of growing this business wing and it would be really good that as a result of this training that this umbrella organization, that organization think on how they will grow this business wing. And I will finalize saying that it's a challenge because business incubation and as you see also this MAD process is a long process need a lot of time and funding investment, which FFF itself could not provide. It's really needed that the producer organization believe on it and so use a lot of imagination because at the end of the training we will not say okay do that because the FFF will provide you all the money that you need that is not the case only the people who want to do will do that and we are ready to accompany you if you believe that it is useful for you and the members that you serve. Thank you and over. Thank you, Johnny. Actually, that's something that we discussed also in Tanzania with some of the, the, the produce organizations the sort of regional produce organizations and it sort of adds a layer of complexity because now we're talking about these umbrella organizations running a business themselves and and through this generating funds in order to also be able to provide additional services to their members so this is really a business at a high level. And, and yes, it is probably a really good idea for this unit this business unit to run an MA and D type of process to understand how to set this up. And I think what we talked about previously is the sort of local producer groups and those people trying to set up an enterprise that allows them to not only sell their products, but to really market them and to to to understand their, their, their, their situation within the market and their potential to to to function as enterprises. So that's, I think they're, they're slightly different things and slightly different levels and may and you could be a really useful tool in both of those situations. And perhaps also by an umbrella organization running a business and therefore generating some profit, one of the services, which they could then afford to, to their members is, for example, providing MA and capacity building so that the producer groups that supply the products to this business unit could perhaps also improve and value add and, and sort of move up in, in, in their profits and their, their market position I don't know whether this makes sense. I guess we're all struggling with this it's it's very complex, but I'm glad we, we had this conversation. Unless there any pressing questions or issues that we still want to talk about around group businesses, I would now like to move to our agenda because we're really behind schedule. Does that make sense. Okay, great. So then, let me rejig everything here because I've moved around in my slides one second. Okay, let me start sharing again. Sorry, it's all the process. That's not this one. Okay. Can you see my screen. Yes, yes. Wonderful. I'll go back to my notes then and we can start. Okay, so today we're going to talk about the second phase of MA and D. And I, I wanted to have a quick discussion around what the objectives are but I think we're a bit short of time so I'm just going to skip that discussion now if you allow me, and just tell you that what you probably know that phase two really aims to help potential entrepreneurs select their the best products and enterprise options and to collect all the information required to design the enterprise development plan which then happens in phase three. Sorry, I'm just trying to move forward. So, you can see here again the filter diagram, and you all know this probably by heart now but we're in phase two, where we have pre selected some products from phase one and then the entrepreneurs assess the the opportunities and constraints in all of the five areas of enterprise development until they select one final product. And there is something to be said about. Sorry, let me skip. So, these are yeah so we talked about the different objectives of phase two so the entrepreneurs in step one collect the data on the five areas of enterprise development. So in step two, they select the most promising products. And in step three, the entrepreneurs reflect on the most appropriate form of enterprises. So, I just wanted to very quickly mention that in the transition from phase one and phase two. It's a good idea to not let too much time pass between the two phases to maintain momentum and interest and it's a good idea to organize a workshop with those entrepreneurs who are still interested in going down the man deep path and developing enterprises. And in this workshop you could discuss. You could discuss, have a discussion around the products and the justification for their pre selection. You could also discuss what went well what was easy difficult what was wrong. How would you do things differently and this I think is important to to maintain or create ownership of the process, but also to correct the course. If major obstacles came up or if you feel that there are some misunderstandings around the principles in the process of MA and D. So now I would like to talk with you about step one of phase two. And here I would like to stop sharing. And I would like to ask you, one of you to perhaps recount and tell us the story of how you implemented this first steps, this first step of phase two where the entrepreneurs collect data on the five areas of enterprise development. In particular, we're interested to hear whether you've encountered challenges and how perhaps you went about solving those. So the floor is yours. Is someone perhaps willing to volunteer and tell us about their experiences in implementing this first step of phase two, or perhaps tell us if any questions or issues they have encountered and would like to discuss with us all. Or if someone could perhaps think of any issues that might come up. May I have some ideas. Yes, please. Yes. I think that from the first step to the step to our phase two of MA and D very important. After we make the assessment and among the potential growth, we choose the most potential. Yes, from the area and how the five factor will affect their business is very important. And I think through the FFF in Vietnam, we have some experience and some lessons. We start with the FFF free tools from 2019. Yes. And after one year. 2020. We have the pandemic. And some of our FFPO faced with many difficulties. First is the market broken. And the second, the price of feeding of chicken. Very high increase. Some MFPO they raise the chicken under the forest. They suffer with the market broken. And the feeding of chicken, very high cost for feeding chicken. This is why when we suffer with some certainly problem. We not only concern about our potential product in that area in even in the assessment. We follow their group. They have the timber, they have the medicine tree, or they also have the chicken under the forest and honey. But we draw our lesson and we think that if we continue to develop the chicken raising with the very big volume, sometimes we suffer with the market demand because the pandemic, the people do not cannot transfer the food from the province to the market easily. This is why the requirement from the customer also limited. And then we also advise our FFPO. If we can move to some other block, maybe at the beginning they did not see their potential. But when we draw our situation, if they follow that, they can have the mushroom raising. And they start with mushroom raising. It means that they do not have to invest the cost for input for mushroom raising. And even when we transfer mushroom to the market, sometimes the customer can get the mushroom immediately and very quickly done for chicken transfer. Because when we work with our FFPO, we think that the pandemic is very, very challenging. If we only based on our old business planning, sometimes we have very high risk. This is why I think that after we learn management supported by IAED in Nepal, we also come back and we train our FFPO. And this is very, very useful and very important for our FFPO, including the MAED. But we think that now the market change very quickly. And how we can avoid some chalice from the market changing is very important also. Thank you very much. Thank you everyone. Yes, and it sort of reiterates also the need to move quite quickly between phase one and phase two. Because if the situation allows, of course, and we don't have a global pandemic, because the situation can change. And some of the products that are pre-selected will no longer be viable. And of course, this will come out in phase two as you assess in more in-depth the situation for each product. I was wondering whether Isabel or Jacques had anything else to add to that? Just one point. What I think was very important in one intervention is that yes, it's not because we have done a careful research and prepared the EDP carefully, that it's good for five years. It is clear that the enterprise every year will have to come back on the results of the previous year and review the EDP accordingly. According to internal factor, do they face any internal problems or positive aspects, doing better than expected? And also external factor, like you mentioned, and that's where the risk management strategy would be very important. So that's all what I have to add. I mean, yes, regular review of the EDP. Let's say changing the product or evolving of a product which evolved to something else, but with the same resource could be also a possibility. And yes, a regular review, it's very important. Thank you, Isabel. Mark, please. Thank you very much, Qatar. And I just wanted to emphasize, especially the fact of, especially the first step in phase two, which is the data collection that you need to be able to have to be able to inform what you do in phase three, which is developing the enterprise development plan. And I want to emphasize using just two of the five areas of enterprise development, including the environment and environmental sustainability, which is very, very important to consider, especially in terms of the products that you are going to be dealing with. So for instance, if you are dealing with a group that wants to go into honey, the environmental conditions that are available within the landscape need to be supportive of honey production. And then of course, another element is also the market and market potential. And that's why you need to do the market service to be able to understand the extent to which your product will definitely have a market availability. So in considering same, I think that phase two is a very important aspect in terms of how you accompany forest producers to be able to identify which particular product has a very higher market potential in terms of what you want to do. And of course, also in terms of the environment in which you find themselves is the environment able to sustain that business. And as Isabel said, I think the risk management factors need to be looked at very carefully. And also the fact that it is not just a one-off situation, you need to be able to go back to the EDP and review it every other year because the market conditions change and the environmental conditions also change within the landscape that you work in. And so there's a need to usually consider these especially two aspects in terms of how you are affecting how enterprise entrepreneurs are being able to identify which products are best suited for their environments. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mark. Yes, indeed. This is, I mean, the market chain analysis is the very first step in your data collection. And we're going to talk about this. I'm going to show this also in the slides, but then there are also all the other areas that need to be considered, including the environment. And you're right to emphasize that this is a very important, important area to consider and but of course also the others. So the social context, the technical issues, the legal context, all of those need to be for all of those areas data needs to be collected. Also in the second phase, as was already done in the first phase, but in the second phase, this is a more in-depth and more structured data collection. Is there anyone else who would like to perhaps hear someone's mic open? Perhaps you would like to speak? I don't know, that is, I can't see, sorry. Tuan, please. I think the first step when we conduct in Upline MND in Vietnam, we like events such as be able. In my point of view, we also have other difficult, like beside farmer do not just critical information for their business, but also they don't know how to collect them because before they didn't do it. And another difficult is in the process of gathering information, supply chain extra do not want to share information with farmers because they feel they don't have a free time and they don't want to share secret related to their marketing. And to have FFBO, we need to, we mobilized, known from this link relationship with local officer, so they had to support. For example, Mr. Quang is a leader of farmer province of Bacca. He will collect with one actor that he have a relationship with him to set to help the farmer. Yeah, so I think that's also very difficult for FFBO as a first step when when they conduct or apply MND to collect information about marketing. Yeah, I think that's all. Thank you. It's really interesting and I would like to comment on one aspect you've raised and then perhaps also ask Isabel and Jack to come in and especially on the problems around certain actors not willing, not being willing to share information. And I just wanted to talk about the point you've raised about farmers not being used to collecting data. And, and that's, I mean that is one of the main reasons why MND toolkit was developed because it has some really good tools that facilitators can use in enabling farmers to learn these skills and to to build their confidence. And, but again, it comes back to giving enough time and adapting the toolkit to the local condition. But it provides a very structured way of actually allowing people to to collect data in a way that they were not used to do before and I think this is the real magic of MND that it really gives you. It really gives entrepreneurs this power to to understand their environment better. Can I pass the floor to Isabel or Jack on the on the problems with people not sharing information. Yeah. So, of course, the point of do we get reliable information that we need is a key question. But, and I think maybe this point is underestimated by the facilitators. The facilitators themselves, they need to be trained or to train themselves in how to get information. The list of information to get. I mean, in the in the field facilitator guidelines, I think it's quite clear in the five areas. They are checklist. It's not so complicated. But how do we get this information when you have never been there to to collect information. So there is it's training itself. And there are some tricks to avoid. There are some tools to apply like triangulation to us to few people. You know that people will lie a little bit. So you have to several sources, etc. You have also to to to see that your different levels of information. You, if you have local people who are not educated, don't use to go very far from their home. You know, as a facilitator or as a team who manage the application of AMD, that they can get information to a certain extent, they can get information from informants in, let's say, in the commune or in the district, etc. You know that they will need also some information that are actually existing elsewhere, and they are not strong enough they are not trained enough to get this information. And that's where the project and the service that the innovation business could give is that to identify someone who would go for them to get this information. But in close relation with them. That means deciding with them what information has to be collected and to to explain them which will be their informants that will they will contact and also to go back to them and explain all the information they got. So it is, we cannot say to the, to the local people, okay, there is this list of information. You have to recognize yourself to go and collect them. Facilitator has to be trained, a facilitator has to be there for the first round of data collection. Once they have collected the first round of information, they feel how they should behave. So those who have been in training with us, we, you may remember that we had quite a long time discussion about this, how to collect information, because if you don't get real information then the whole, all things will be affected. So, yes, you, there is a support to be given to the facilitator and the facilitator to the local people for for this. Thank you. Thank you, Isabella, I just perhaps wanted to use my turn. Yes, please Jack. No. Okay, in addition to what Isabelle said, I think, when we have the information we try to collect the information. Okay, so we have a certain number of time that we put to collect this information. Then at the end of this, we have a certain number of information that we have to analyze. And we have to be clear, either we can get farther than that, and get more information, or if we cannot get farther than that, and we have to work with this information. So the second solution is that we cannot go farther than that we cannot get more information. Then at that time we have to decide, can we make a business or not. And if we don't have the information, we close the show, and we don't do the business, because the villagers and facilitators are not able to find the good information to set up business. So there is too much risk, and we don't do it. It's a question of getting the information, analyzing them, and see if we take a risk or not to do the business. Thank you, Jack. Yes, so just perhaps one more point I wanted to add on top. And I don't know how useful this is in your context one, but if you perhaps find or if entrepreneurs or the data collectors among them find that one particular actor is not willing to disclose certain information. Is there perhaps a possibility to go one step higher and ask the actors further up the value chain? Because then you can sort of deduct and understand what this person who is not willing to share information, what their sales volumes are and their prices, is just perhaps an additional tip. I saw Clifford's hand up earlier, but don't know whether he still wants to say something. No, I think I actually had learned that most of the responses had actually covered what I wanted to say. But on Isabelle's points, I think the facilitator, like she mentioned, is very, very critical in the process. Once the facilitator does not understand the process of gathering this data, it's really going to be a bit difficult to get it required data and to be able to run the analysis to be able to know what direction to go. So for me, I think in the process of going for the data collection, the tools to be used for this data collection must be jointly developed with the enterprise group so that they also understand what goes into the tool. So in going also for the market surveys and all those things, you would facilitate, don't have to step aside, you need to participate in the process. There are important questions that you also need to ask in the process of gathering the data, where you see that the group is leaving out some elements, you prompt them and say, okay, we need to inquire more about this and that. So it's when the facilitator understands the process, it makes everything very easy for the data to be done. And we also need to pay attention to the fact that, yes, there are some people who naturally will not give out any information. Either they give you wrong information or they would try to not give you the information at all. In that case, what sometimes we do is, let's say if it's about issues of quantities and pricing, you can send informants into the market like Eglia said, to observe the process of a period of literally two markets or three markets. Then based on those observations, they will be able to also give you information that will guide you and draw your analysis and all that. So I think those things are very critical and that closure issues are also going to be very problematic because some people naturally not give you information and you need to go a step higher to be able to get that information. That is very critical for your business analysis. Thank you. Thank you Clifford for this really great summary of what we've just discussed. Yvonne, did you want to come in again? Yes, I think as a mark is the information collection is a very important and very difficult, especially for the timber productions. Why? Because through our FFF, at the beginning when we start with the market information for timber, the almost FFO, they can know the price of their district or some people can know about the price of timber in the province. But they cannot have the other information of either the province or other enterprise in that the value chain. This is why I so agree with Jonny, they said that the role of the APEC organization and umbrella organization are very important. Because we have the Y connection with other FFO in other provinces, first we have to use our networking of APEC organization. And we can talk and we can deal with the other FFO in other provinces, in other areas. And we also have the one channel to get information. This is the first thing. And second thing, I think as an APEC organization, a farmer, we have some specialists. They can work with some specialists of forestry industry. This is why we can connect with them and can know more information from the timber production in the industry and some specialists. This is why when we organize the MAMD, we also invite them to our training. They provide maybe only one hour or two hours for the overall timber production and even for information. They have some data and they have very wide networking and relationship with other timber production enterprise. This is the second channel. And the third thing when we organize, we also use the opportunity to take our FFO to visit some other enterprise. They do business in the timber production. And their FFO representative can ask their member from other provinces and they get more information. And also, they ask to please connection with each other. Through this field trip, they make friends with each other and they can share information. Yeah, here in Baghdad, we have this pride, but in Baghzang and or Bakning or Quangning, they are so different as a pride. And based on that, they have the farmer and farmer chain information through our support. And we think that we also bring them to some enterprise for talking and for sharing information and provide what they have the volume of non-timber production for each of them. And through the four or five enterprises, they first they get introduction and they can make the friend and then they can express their collaboration with enterprise how they can supply the material for enterprise also in that value chain. And I think that we also bring them to our discussion. This means that the AIPEC organization and 50 liter is a first step very important for FFO to get information in many options and many opportunities. Yes, thank you. I think this is a really, really important and interesting point. And of course, producers who are associated with produce organizations have this amazing advantage whereby these organizations can provide these important services to them and helping them and acquiring information that they may not have access to normally. So that's a really, really good. Thank you. Wahangi, did you want to come in? Wahangi, excuse me. Okay. Is there someone else who would perhaps like to one last comment, one last question before I move on to some slides. Any other issues that people have experienced in this first step of phase two. Okay, so then let me share my screen again. Yes, I can, I can hear nodding. Okay. Yes, thank you. Let's talk about data collection briefly. So step one in this process is, as we said, the market of value chain analysis to decide the best strategy to enter the value chain. So market chain analysis the first of several other areas around enterprise development that the entrepreneurs need to need to assess need to do. Because without market, if you find that in this first step, there is no possibility for them to enter the market, then all other data collection will be useless. So this is the first point. And just to talk a little bit more about the market data. This is really a tool that entrepreneurs use to follow the product market chain from producer to consumer. And you will, they will in this, in this setup, they will have to look at the prices of the products, the average quantities produced and traded the transportation costs any modifications to the product along the chain. And look at also competitors and some market trends for, for each, and they will have to do this for each actor for each actor involved in the chain. And it really helps for them to, to draw a market chain diagram to show all the main actors in the market, how they're related to the to each other and the role they each play. So I'm very sorry that I could not squeeze the French translation of all of the text that is on the slide but essentially it's a summary of what I've just said so in this market data table that the entrepreneurs will will compile. They will look at the actors to who's involved the different activities and quantities and, and qualities and prices. And then they will also look at how so they will look at payment arrangements, any means and duration of storage, any transformation or value adding of the product and this market data table will allow the entrepreneurs to estimate the overall market size, the level of competition, the cost implications. So any requirements in terms of skill equipment, etc. And each level. So, I just wanted to show and again I'm sorry this is not translated in French but it is the third tool in the second field facilitator guideline. I just wanted to show that once the market chain has been analyzed and there's some understanding that yes there is an opportunity to enter this market with for particular products. The entrepreneurs will then also look at the different, the other areas of the around enterprise development, and it is important that they establish a list of criteria for each of the five areas. There won't have to be very many two to four criteria per area of enterprise development should be sufficient because the idea is not to to to create a very big database with perhaps information that might not be always useful, but to really get quality information on the key criteria that they've selected for each for each area and again there are really helpful tools. So, as I said to three in the film facilitator field facilitator guideline and also to four, which gives some some some ideas on what those criteria might be. Okay, so then, if you find that there is limited capacity among your, the entrepreneurs that you work with on how to collect data you could include a session, just to talk about this. So, you could discuss different data collection methods. Oh, sorry. And then, I think it's important also that when data collection is being discussed by all of the entrepreneurs in the room. There is a discussion around the scope of the survey so as I said it's better to be selective and strategic it's better to have a smaller amount of reliable information, than a large amounts of perhaps unreliable information. And then the entrepreneurs will need to select the key informants so you need to also they need to also discuss the criteria for how they select informants informants and as even also mentioned it's really great if you can establish your strategic alliances perhaps with with with other entrepreneurs or perhaps with transporters who are often key informants and quit later on also become potential business partners. So, in case where middleman might not be their cooperative go to the next step as we have said. And then the different tools that will be used in the data collection have to have to be gathered. So, one of those is the market chain map that we've discussed in the market data table. But then also the production and sales calendar and I think you're all familiar with these because in the edps that you've sent us this was included in most of them. And then also perhaps a production process map and where you could fill in how a particular product is transformed from step to step and what is needed for those transformations for those value add additions. And then they will have to develop a survey field plan and a schedule, and they need to identify the data collectors. So, ideally, those should be people who are quite active on perhaps already involved in producing trading or processing either one of those have the time to do this data collection and know how to take notes able to communicate back the data. So that's quite an important task also to select the right collectors and then as we've also said it is it is really important for the facilitator to to travel with the trainees and assist them when and where this is necessary. And there should be also from time to time a review to see whether there are any gaps or any information missing that needs to be perhaps added to the to the plan in order to maximize survey outcomes. Okay, I had a moment here and questions but perhaps I would skip that and for us to have some time in the end, perhaps if you have some questions on what I've just presented. And now I'd like to move to step two of phase two, which is the step where the potential entrepreneurs select the most promising products. And here I'm going to stop sharing again because I would like to hear about your experiences in implementing step two of phase two. The data collectors have come back with their data and and now what happens. Good morning everyone. So, following the data collection process. So what we did was to come up with a write up so that we can select the most promising products so that we can continue with the analysis, and therefore, at our level, most of our of our producers are the farmers who deal with, especially, you know, food stuffs, food products, therefore there was a lot of data that they collected in the market. That means they were not expecting at all. They were not expecting at all that their product would be will not be very competitive with regard to the markets that they visited. So, we had to re reorganize their choice of product so that they can, you know, bring out value add it was a bit difficult because the intellectual level of our FFP was was very low. But every time we were forced to, you know, start afresh from the beginning and re explain what are the stakes what are the objectives to achieve in order for us to, you know, put in place. There is still sustainable, evident, you know, enterprise story. So, to date, it is very difficult to make them, you know, adopt a product that will allow them really to get emancipated in the field in the field. So for us in Madagascar, the platform of women in a secure food security, we are really at the beginning of the process. It is really difficult to train them on the basic Prince principles of the and so yeah, this is what I wanted to share. Thank you. That's very, very interesting. And of course, it's great to have these tools available. But it's always important also to see what are the local capacities and and how can we adjust our strategies and and it's great that you say that you've repeatedly patiently worked with the with the producers to to explain where there were perhaps things not very clear. Is there perhaps someone else in the group who had similar experiences and who's maybe found a good solution or perhaps other other issues that you may have encountered in this in the second step of phase two. Well, I would like to volunteer the Vietnam team. They had similar. I when I hear the problems that we are saying, I think in Vietnam this was also very difficult in the beginning. I don't know if one or if one can say something about that. Please team Vietnam welcome. Yeah, thank you. So be successful. And I think miss even and meet the time we have some opinion. And for me, I think in the two phase in the two phase at the step two. When we work with for a farmer. First time for a farmer always think that they only have a product is a wood. And through learning and applying MND farmer have to reassess that timber is not the main product at the moment. And, and they work together, follow their app we all to consider looking for other potential. And they have to change their mind to think maybe in the next year they have to turn one of the the product to be go to the market. And at the same time, because how to turn turn on on product to be bring it to go to the market. They have to rethink about how to bring the product to the market. And they have to working together first before I think to become marketing people. And they have to working together, follow FPL and translate advocacy for the local authorities interest and persuade them supporting opening for a tree roast or supporting the installation of three phase electricity to to have them to turn on product to be brought up for the market. Yeah. That's my. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you also highlighting the role of the facilitator to to to open to open up the window to other possibilities. I think that's that's really interesting and important. I can see Lydia stand up. Welcome, please. This is Lydia from Ghana with his name. Yeah, good morning once again. I'm Lydia from my table. I want to thank you personally for the presentation. I'm learning a lot from it because yesterday or this week. And last week we have challenges. And when I look at the information data collection is very, very important that if I have started my project with it to help me because my woman who's a planted onions. As I sit down now we are looking for market for them. I'm not getting the good market. One woman has about 300 bags of onions. Yesterday we don't have story facilities where to keep them is a challenge. So I think that with these tools that we are learning today. Hence for the future when we apply I think that to help our women, especially my woman I'm working with where we don't send them teenage mothers. Thank you for the presentation. Thank you. Yeah, it sounds like this might be the first time you're here in an MA and E training. Have you have you gone through training before? No, please. First time. Yes, please. Okay, so then I just perhaps would like to note that there is a much longer training. Which goes into much more detail for all the different phases of MA and E. And I mean, now we're sort of this is a refresher training for people who have already used it and have experienced some issues and while there is some really interesting things and I think you can pick up by. I think it's, I just wanted to also highlight that there is more. I don't know how we could, we could facilitate you to have access to that but yes, I mean, if you're interested there is a lot of material also online if you have access. You can, you can download, I don't know whether Sophie you could put in the chat if you have a moment the link to the tools so that Lydia can can find them online. That would be wonderful. Otherwise, I will, I will send them around after this, after this session today. And please I have, I can see the hand up back. Oh, sorry, I just need John Mark is back please welcome John Mark floors yours. Thank you for the network is very bad. So, after the training. We had, we tried to share the learnings with other members of the group. So, what we did on the ground with regard to the process was meant to improve production. The problem is that people as the members education is very low and therefore it becomes a little bit difficult to train them on the techniques. So we taught them about the grazing techniques. So, when you look at the background, you can see maze growing that has been planted thanks to the techniques that we have taught the members. So, we have done a promotion on maze growing thanks to the technique. And we have also promoted beans growing. And this was done thanks to the training that we received. Sorry, thank you, but it was very difficult to get what he was saying. Yes, thank you so much, John Mark. It was, it was a little bit difficult to hear exactly what you were where you were saying because the connection is unfortunately a little bit weak. But I think what I might have heard is that you have faced similar problems in terms of the capacities of the producers in working also with the facilitator with the tools and assessing their situation if I understood correctly. And, and I think that you then talked about the mice cultivation and about improving quality of the product, but I'm not 100% certain. So, I just wanted to sort of see whether those who have raised their hands already have some, have some feedback on how to deal with this problem of very low capacities of people to use the tools and to engage with the process. So, please, if you have any other points you would like to raise, I think I, it was Bob Lee, who was first raised his hand or her hand. Thank you. As I said it all, I'm from Togo. And we did have an experiment with the CTM, the tool MAD. So we did launch the tools. We did launch a product using the cocoa crust of fields. So we did use, we did follow all these types of the tools. So when it's come to data collection, I must say that it was a little bit difficult because at the beginning you have to talk to the tax collection people, tax people rather to get it at us, but we came back and we reviewed the composition of our team. So, we do have our producers, and it was much easier to deal with them. So, with the exchanges that we have, we were able to understand that this product was not on the market. So, we did adjust the price of the product and according to what's happening in the market today, which is a very unique product from FFF, and we are trying to sensitize in the cooperative. This is the same experience with coffee. So, we were able to produce soap, and that is that help us to have the product on the market. So this is the experience that we have using these tools. So I think we have adopted it as a working tool. Thank you. Thank you very much for this recount of your experiences, especially around data collection. I was wondering whether Isabel and Jacques had anything to add to this discussion at this point. I would like for just what we are right now. When, when you say we, we have done the experimentation we have collected the data. Who you mean? Who are you? Are you? Who is behind that? Is it the FFPO as a whole? Is it an individual? Is it an entrepreneur? I don't understand very well. So this is a question to Togo. Yes. They are talking about cooperative ways. The cooperative is the one who launched the product. So what we are doing? We are not talking with individuals. We are working with cooperatives. Thank you. As you mentioned that you did not get the real information at the beginning, then you send back the producer to get the information and then they could get more information. So that's why I was a bit puzzled of who was doing what. And to come back on what you said from Madagascar and experience also in some other areas where in some context the education level of the local people is very low. So they are not actually very involved and even willing to become an entrepreneur. I think it's something to consider. But there are some contexts where it will be very difficult not to apply MND because it is not the point to apply MND. It's to start small enterprises. The enterprise development is something a little bit complicated and which requires a minimum of skills. And in some context, we already face that many times, the people are not ready yet for that. So the process will take longer time. And maybe some intimate, you have to stop the MND process and right away, enterprise development with some other, let's say livelihood improvement activities or first and to slowly, slowly teach them about some financial issues, management issues that will lead them to be more mature and start enterprise development later. That means a bit delaying the fact of using MND for enterprise development. Otherwise, I mean, you may end up with the facilitator or the organization doing MND for them and which will not lead anywhere. That's a bit my point. Thank you. Thank you, Isabel. I think that's a very, you're offering some very good solutions there. Yes, indeed. I want to react to what Madame Isabel has said. Indeed, for now, we are working a lot on the issue of financing small enterprises because indeed the challenge is about the means because even if the producer understand what needs to be done to become an entrepreneur, they do not have financial means to use. So for now, we are teaching them how they can create maybe systems, financing, community financing system. We are also trying to collaborate and have network with our micro finance enterprises in order to facilitate the launching of small enterprises. That is all I have to say. Yes, just to answer. Yeah, we need to have a good environment so that later on they can establish enterprises. Thank you. Thank you, Angi. Thank you, Isabel. Unless there are any major issues that you would like to talk about. Yes, please. I can see the hand up of Asimil. Greetings, I'm from Togo. And specifically a radio partner, a network of young producer in Togo. Back in 2018, when we started, we launched the mechanism. Tifa was a member of the network and they benefited from support from FFPO. So we had the training on MED, which was done during the month of August. And another one, October 2019. So after this training, the network used the MED tool so that they can develop their enterprises. First of all, the tool which was used during the training, these enable them to come up with a business plan so that they can access a credit from a micro financing firm. At the beginning, it was within the fair and fair project. So this is how they use their business plan to get the credit, but they were not successful. But the business plan was also submitted to another financial entity so that they can access a credit in order to develop activities of the cooperative because they are processing a local product such as ginger juice and other product. So before the training, MED, our cooperative didn't have enough tools to enable them to become a real enterprise. They didn't have a bank account management register, so the cooperative didn't have all these things. So it's after the MED tools that they started using those tools and then the tools on marketing how to link consumer with the product. It was launcher and now the cooperative has many customers who are buying those products. Beyond that, I think that the site of the cooperative is closed to a forest, to a sacred forest. And this is where the cooperative has tried to develop the tools so that they can teach them to conserve or to manage the forest. So this is our experience that I wanted to share with you. Thank you. Thank you so much for telling us this experience, telling us about your experience. It's always very good to hear from other countries that I don't know much about personally and about your cases. Just one last comment from Edwin and then I would like to move ahead in our agenda. Please Edwin, the floor is yours. Thank you very much. This is Edwin from Kenya. I just wanted to share an experience we had with one group and how MED can be very helpful in selecting viable enterprises. So we had a group that we were working with and the group, the name was Jamshon Bamboo Group, as the name says, they dealt with bamboo. But then after we went through the MED process under the FFF program, they had shortlisted a number of products. One of them being bamboo, another being avocados and another one being honey. But then after we did the market survey and collected data and analyzed this data, we found out that the data favored bamboo, not bamboo, but avocados. But many of the members of the group wanted to go ahead with bamboo because they had a project in the area that had been donor funded and most of them had planted bamboo in their lands. But then if when you looked at the things like availability of quality jump as in the profit margins, the time that it took to recoup the investment, all these factors favored avocado. And especially at that time that was back in 2017 the international market for avocados very promising. So out of the 30 people or so that we had started with, there was split like let's say half half some supporting bamboo or supporting avocado. But then eventually they all went with avocado. And at the moment they out of the 30 people or so many more adopted avocado and we have around 200 people who have formed a cooperative from that. And looking back, you can see that avocados are really good choice because of the incomes they're getting and the way it has changed the incomes by the farmers. So maybe without M&D we would never have picked avocados or they would never have picked avocados. But right now they're doing very well. So that is evidence that M&D can be very, very helpful in selecting viable enterprises. Thank you. Thank you, Edwin. I think this was a wonderful story to tell and very clearly told also. Perhaps we should get to make you some kind of video, some promotional video for M&D retelling the story that would be great. Okay, so thank you again. I would now like to share my screen again. We're still talking about step two of phase two. And we talked about, sorry, I have gone way too far in my script. So we've talked about how the data collectors come back to the group and they share the results. And I think it's, well, I don't just think that I know that it's important for the whole group to be present when these results are shared. Also because not everyone is fixed on one product yet. So they will really benefit from hearing about the different, the data that has been collected for the different pre-selected products. And this is also the moment where some of the national survey results or the national survey results should be shared. And that, of course, can be this kind of information. We've talked about the different sources and we've talked about the important role of forest producer organizations, the sort of higher level organizations and acquiring this kind of data at a national level. And it's also important for the entrepreneurs together with the facilitator to assess how reliable the collected information is. So then once the data is shared, it will be analyzed by the entrepreneurs. This will be done in a product assessment table. So this is where the entrepreneurs list all the opportunities and positive aspects of each product and then they list the constraints that need to be overcome in order to improve the current status of this product. And if not already done, these opportunities and constraints are then classified within the five areas of business development. And the entrepreneurs also workshop and discuss possible solutions to these constraints that were identified. And there may be new selection criteria that emerge from these discussions, something that they will then need to add to the different criteria as they have already established for the five areas. And they may also find that they need to organize a second round of data collection if there are still some gaps there. So it's an iterative process and it takes some time. And of course this product assessment table should be filled in not just for the pre selected products but perhaps during the research new product ideas came up so they should also be then of course analyzed in this way. And then the entrepreneurs rank the different products. So first of all, you decide on the scoring conventions so positive feature will get high points, a major constraint will get a low score. And then you assign or sorry, the entrepreneurs assigned scores for each product, according to the different criteria they have identified. And then once all the products are scored, the total is calculated and the scores can be compared. So these scores really are they're not to say this is the this is the final, this is the basis for a final decision. This product scored very high therefore we're going to go for this. And this one scored very low so we're going to dismiss this but it's really an indicator of strengths and weaknesses in the different areas of enterprise development. So it's not a precise measuring tool. And there should be the scoring should then be discussed and analyzed. Yes, and what I also wanted to point out is that the, the sort of strength and weaknesses that the entrepreneurs identify through the scoring is really the subtotals of the scores for each area sort of give an indication of particular strengths or weaknesses of certain products in certain areas is something that that needs to be considered and looked into as they as they if they choose this product to to develop into an enterprise. Okay, let's move on. So we have about 20 minutes left and I just wanted to touch on step three. And I've, I've gone a little bit over time for the other on the other topics because I know that we've already had some discussion around this step three at the beginning of our session today. So step three is of course where the entrepreneurs reflect on the most appropriate form of enterprise. I just wanted to highlight here that it's the facilitators role really to help the entrepreneurs identify the most appropriate kind of enterprise or enterprise group but the starting point is always the actual situation of the entrepreneurs at that present time. So for existing groups the facilitator should help them determine whether their current situation is appropriate for the enterprise they want to establish. And of course for existing groups it's advisable to build upon the existing structures, as long as its purpose is in line with the main principle of economic empowerment in a positive social context. So the role of the facilitator is to help entrepreneurs assess whether their current organization meets those requirements of an enterprise group, and whether it has good management practices and this was the slide that I had mentioned at the very beginning of a session coming up now. So this is just a list of the sort of good management practices you could discuss with entrepreneurs. So an enterprise group meets at a minimum a chairperson, a secretary, a treasurer, and of course members and men and women should both be represented. Then you need to have rules governing all the activities of the enterprise group. So there should be some regulations drafted, they should be known by everyone and adhered to by all. Then you also need to decide on the frequency of the meetings of this enterprise group. So there should be some kind of regular timetable and the enterprise group should meet according to this timetable. And according to of course the needs and how often they should meet. Then it's really also important to set the level of authority for the group to make and implement decisions. So the group needs to be able to make decisions. So there needs to be some clarity around who has which authority in the group around decision making. It's always good to encourage and ensure that women are encouraged to participate in the decision making of the enterprise enterprise group. So they should also be active members of the management team. They should attend meetings. So the groups need to make sure that the meetings are conducted in a situation where women are free to participate. And they should women should also be part of the decision making process in an ideal world. The enterprise group also needs to consider how it's going to fund itself and group members could contribute funds to guarantee sustainability of the group. So this could be either a contribution by everyone as the same contribution by everyone or it could be calculated on the degree of involvement or the ability to pay. I think what is and we talked about this before what is what is the most important is transparency and a communal decision around how finances are handled. And also the possibility to adapt this this this setup as as you go along and you see that there may be problems coming up. We've also talked about the importance of considering the social aspects around an enterprise. So this is also where you could have the group could have a bylaw describing members regular contributions to a community development fund. Of course, very important for the group is to have financial records so they they must describe the cash flows money coming in going out and the information should be in the public domain so it should be transparent and available to all members. We talked already about decision making processes and the there should also be a system that describes the participation of everyone so how members and other contributors can participate and how their participation is recognized within the group. You could also organize a discussion with the entrepreneurs to reflect on how their existing structure can be modified and these could be some guiding questions in this in this discussion so what could be the composition of an enterprise group who manages the group. What is a perfectly functional group what are its strengths how do you envision that how could a group be efficient and managed in a transparent matter manner and what does a group need to do to ensure sustainability so generate the solutions. The answers to these questions from within the group. And then of course, if groups are not yet formed. There are certain, there are certain elements that you might want to consider as a facilitator in that situation so try to encourage making up groups based on different types of products that individuals have chosen to develop. Reflect also on the on the benefits with them around collaboration. So, this could be that as a group they produce can produce larger quantities they can obtain a better quality products. They can produce better quality products they can share costs for technology or perhaps other reasons. Assess also what information already exists in the group on different forms of enterprises and whether it is best to register or not. And if yes when and this is of course always going to be dependent on your national context and the rules and regulations around registration. You made you may also decide to invite some external advisors you could explain the local possibilities to to the entrepreneurs in how they could form groups and in what form. And it may also be a good idea to start informally. And then as production increases. You could then become more formalized as a group, they could become more formalized as a group. And of course I wanted to also point out that entrepreneurs may decide to be members of several groups if they have such aspirations and capacities. Okay, so these were all the slides I wanted to share with you today. We have about 10 minutes left. And perhaps in these 10 minutes, if you can think back at everything that we discussed today. All the, the, the different steps of the second phase. Are there particular questions and things that you would like to clarify and this is your chance tomorrow we're going to talk about phase three. We have our two master trainers is a bell and jack presence so please we have 10 minutes. Yes, please. Yes, I just wanted to emphasize, especially the need for what is a bill mentioned about the fact that you need to regularly review experts of the enterprise development plan, preferably on an annual basis to make it in tandem with the current conditions available in terms of especially the market system and of course other areas set of the environment that you find yourself because definitely we do not live in a static environment. And so they might be changes, especially in the market situation and of course the risk that can affect the business. It's an opportunity to be much more flexible and make sure that the document is not that static. And that you are providing an opportunity for regular growth in terms of your plans, especially in terms of your marketing plans would be very, very useful. Thank you so much. Thank you Matt. Matt, did you want to react. No, I can, I can just confirm. Yeah, very, very true. But not not, of course, market market aspect is very important. But let's say also, we have to be very careful about the context of law in terms of rules and regulation, which actually affect a lot. The changes in enterprise in terms of pricing in terms of amount of tax in terms of cost in terms of transportation, many, many aspects on resource availability, restriction to resource availability, exemption of tax, all this may change every year. You may have some changes in terms of legal issues every year. So this is also an area which is to be taken in consideration on a yearly basis, at least. Thank you. Thank you, Isabelle. Thank you, Mark. I can see the hand up of Musso Houdou. Please, the floor is yours. Thank you, Madam Sofia. I'm from Togo. I want you to come back on the participative community development. I want to know how can these funds will contribute to the good management. I would like to have more clarity on the issue. Thank you. Yeah, so this is about the community development fund that I mentioned. So I think the purpose here is to understand that if you set up an enterprise, it will always be in a community context. And within this context, you might provide some really positive benefits to the community members as your enterprise activities, but there might also be some negative aspects. And the idea of this community fund is to sort of have a contribution of the entrepreneurs towards a fixed, a concrete, visible contribution to move their community up, to give them back. But I think this could also be a situation where, and I really need Isabelle and Jacques to correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are using, for example, community forest resources for your enterprise, there needs to be a system in which you give the community back because you're making a profit from these community assets. I don't know if that makes sense. Perhaps Isabelle Jacques could confirm or correct me. Yeah, I agree with you. And, but it takes a lot of different forms according to the context. For example, if your enterprise is using a lot of water, you may think about contributing to upgrade the water system in the community, or whatever it can be. Yes, it's a really good link to make sure that the social aspects are very much taken into consideration in the enterprise development that you are engaged in. Thank you, Isabelle Jacques, please. Yes, maybe another subject. I think we have not discussed so much about what type of enterprise, that means in the enterprise, who is going to do what. Okay, because I saw in different ADP that we got that there is some huge understanding between what an enterprise is going to do effectively. Okay, and what the member of the group are doing effectively. I don't know if I am clear. I'm going to try to explain I saw in the description we mixed the idea is that everyone has to participate in the enterprise. You see, and after that there is a problem of sharing the profit, according how long the one has been working in. I think it's very important to be very clear, what the enterprise will do effectively according to the information we got from the market. Okay, that's all what I wanted to include. Thank you Jacques, yes. If we are not clear, we try to see this tomorrow also during the ADP. Yes, but if we don't, if we are not clear about this then after that problem starts on the longer run, who will be managing the enterprise, is it the group or if it is different people. How the profit will be shared also that has to be very clear, and that will be done according to the activities of the enterprise. We are able to mix some common activities that are done at the forest level, for example going to the forest and collecting raw material as medicinal plants or firewood or whatever. And the business of the enterprise does the enterprise is doing include in its activities, the fact to go in the forest and to collect the raw material. The enterprise does not include this activity and the enterprise is not just there for storing the material and after that selling or only selling or all this. I think it needs to be very, very clear once before you start anything. Yes, thank you Jacques and we've sort of talked about this a little bit in the morning. Yes, thank you. And that's also what I try to highlight in terms of having a transparent system and decision taken together on how things will be set up and if this is a point that we still need to discuss I'm very happy tomorrow morning when we do a recap of today to pick up on this point again. And I also would like to encourage for you to now hold your questions if you have any on today until tomorrow where we have time to discuss again briefly on what we talked about today because today we have to really finish on time. And I would like to also encourage you to think about everything that we discussed today. And perhaps if there are any issues that you now remember I asked when we did step two or step one of face to there was this problem. Please tomorrow there is time for you to to to bring this up and and and we can we can talk about it and tomorrow we will then and discuss the first two steps of phase three. So that's going to be a big day. And now for now I would like to say goodbye to everyone. Thank you so much for your active participation. It was lovely to have you with us really enjoying this. Thank you so much.