 Good morning and welcome. My name is Lisa Grande and I am the head of the United States Institute of Peace, which was established by the U.S. Congress in 1984 as a national, nonpartisan public institution dedicated to helping prevent, mitigate, and resolve violent conflict abroad. We are very pleased to and honored to welcome the President of Montenegro, His Excellency Milo Dukanovich. For a special conversation on security and stability in the Balkans, the growing threat of Russian malign influence across the European continent, the importance of NATO, and the future of European security architecture. We're delighted to introduce the former Assistant Secretary of State for Europe and Eurasia, Dr. West Mitchell, who will be moderating our discussion today. As the Assistant Secretary of State, Dr. Mitchell was responsible for U.S. relations with the countries of NATO, the European Union, Russia, the Caucasus, and Turkey. We are proud that West is currently serving as the Institute's senior advisor in our Russia and Europe Center. Russia's decision to invade Ukraine without cause and in defiance of international law and norms has demonstrated Ukraine resulting in massive displacement, death, and destruction. The impact of Russia's reckless, wanton decision extends far beyond threatening European security, disrupting food supplies to countries who depend on imports to survive, thriving geopolitical realignment, and creating economic hardship in Africa and parts of Asia. In the face of this aggression, European countries in the United States have joined together to strengthen transatlantic bonds and to reassert our shared democratic values. Throughout this terrible war, this terrible year, Montenegro has shown its support for Ukraine, demonstrated its Euro-Atlantic aspirations with humanitarian and military donations and standing with Ukraine at its time of greatest need. To discuss these themes in more depth, we are very pleased to welcome His Excellency, the President, Montenegro, and to hand over to Dr. West Mitchell for introductory comments. West? Thank you, Leis. It's a delight to see you and let me echo, Leis, in saying what a pleasure it is, Mr. President, to have you with us as our guests this morning. We're delighted you could join us at USIP, and I think I can speak in particular from my colleagues at the Europe Center in saying how special it is for us to hear your perspectives. The Western Balkans occupies an important place in the work of our Institute for the reasons that Leis mentioned. I think for our center, the Center for Europe and Russia, it's particularly relevant because of your region's history and geography, but also because of the recent experience that many of the countries in your region have had, including Montenegro, and some of your neighbors continue to have with resolving or attempting to resolve and mitigate violent conflict. And I want to say at the top, Montenegro has been a success story in that regard, both in preventing violent conflict and in integrating more closely with Western institutions. Montenegro separated peacefully from Serbia in 2006. It's had an association agreement with the EU since about that time, since 2007. And of course, Montenegro joined NATO in 2017. Mr. President, you had a front row seat in those events. You've been an active participant in Montenegro's recent history. You've been in national leadership positions for most of the last three decades. This is, I believe, your second stint as president. You've served as prime minister on four occasions. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, I think it's correct that you're the longest continually serving national leader in Europe today. You've been, as Lee said, a very vocal advocate in making the case for a Western future, for Montenegro and for the Western Balkans. And I should note that you were prime minister at the time of the 2016 parliamentary elections and saw firsthand the attempted coup in the lead up to NATO membership. So you're very well acquainted with the challenges that we continue to face in building peace and security in the Western Balkans today. Our center at USIP has been especially monitoring the war in Ukraine. We've been very active also in watching the ripple effects that that war is generating or may generate for neighboring regions, including the Western Balkans, how it affects the situation inside Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Serbia-Kosovo Dialogue, which is now in a very delicate phase and, of course, the situation with North Macedonia. We're hoping to get some of your thoughts on those themes today and not just the situation in the Western Balkans, but also the view from Montenegro on the broader picture of Europe, NATO, Ukraine, Russia, where events are headed. So, Mr. President, we have a lot to cover. We are very honored that you could join us and the floor is yours. Let me first of all say that the Russian aggression in Ukraine has strong repercussions on this region, and I believe that we all have registered that the Russian engagement in this region has actually started much before. Ever since 2014, Russia has been changing its course towards the perspectives of the European Balkans, and it has been trying to have an influence here in the Western Balkans countries, trying to make them choose a different future and to, instead of the Euro-Atlantic one. The most drastic such influence of Russia into the Western Balkans has happened in our country back in 2016. At the time of parliamentary elections, as you know, through the organization of its security services and with the assistance of a regional platform, which was in Belgrade, it attempted to change government in Montenegro with its primary objective to prevent the formalization of Montenegro's accession to NATO. As you remember, we managed to resist such an attempt. We managed to have elections, and Montenegro has confirmed the mandate of its people, and a couple of months later on, we formalized our membership in NATO. Of course, none of us had any illusions that Russia would give up on its intent on the country. We believe that they would only increase their destruction and that they will even broaden its repertoire of hybrid war in the Western Balkans, which is eventually what happened. So in those years, after 2016 and still today, we had an increased Russian hybrid aggression, which led to demolition of values here in the Western Balkans. So I wish to tell you that the situation in the Western Balkans today is actually worse than compared to the one from six or seven years ago. And this should worry us, all of us, together. And in all those talks I had with the European officials and NATO officials and officials of the Euro-Atlantic area officials, I was indicating that there is no vacuum in geopolitics. You know, if European Union and NATO are not present in an area, that area will be penetrated by others or by third parties. In this case, it was Russia, and they took a very offensive stance, and they even managed to establish some centers of hybrid war here in the region. So today, I can unfortunately say that the reform efforts in the Western Balkans are much lower. Those efforts that should lead our countries to the membership in the European Union, they used to be the case a couple of years ago. Fortunately, we have achieved our first goal, membership in NATO. But for several years already, together with other countries of the Western Balkans, we are stagnating on the path towards the membership in the European Union. What I would also like to note is that in the Western Balkans, we have already had a very obvious replica of what Russia is trying to do in their own region. In the Balkans, we have an attempt of creation of the Serbian world as a kind of annex to the Russian world in the region of Russia. So what Russia is trying to do through the policy of the revision of the history through their strengthened influence in the countries in their neighborhood to restore their geopolitical importance that Soviet Union used to have, that's the same as Serbia is trying to do in the region of the Western Balkans. So definitely, these are very retrograde policies, policies that don't want to rule their countries. No, they want to rule their nations. And if they are focused on ruling their nations, they definitely infringe the sovereignty of other countries. That's what we can see in the region where Serbia is trying to rule Montenegro. They are trying to rule Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kosovo and Northern Macedonia. And I would say that unfortunately, such policy is still not getting a proper answer, adequate answer from our Western partners. It seems to me that the Western partners precisely detected the problems in Russia and its neighborhood. But it is as if they miss to see that in the Western Balkans, we have a mini attempt to have the same policy installed here, the same as in Russia. It seems to me that the Western partners policy towards Western Balkans is unfortunately still burdened by many calculations and many compromises that, in my opinion, are not necessary. And they are damaging the principles that we together fight for. I believe that it is more than sufficient evidence so that we can register very precisely in the Western Balkans who is fighting for the Western system of values and respect for international law and who actually flirts with Russian aggression and who still is not clear about who is the aggressor and who is the victim and which side they want to be. I also want to say that the Russian invasion made us question all earlier relations and assessments and policies that we had on the level of Europe and Europe and the community. And this invasion not only provoked ordeal and sufferings of civilians and destructions, but it is a brutal aggression against the sovereign country and it is an attack against the fundamental principles of the international order after the Second World War. And from the perspective of the democratic and free world, Russian aggression was an alarm to wake up to defend the values and principles of liberal order based on rules. And it turns out that unlike autocratic regimes that want to do the revision and go back to the Cold War divisions and sphere of influence, the war against Ukraine strengthened the cooperation on the basis of values on the level of Europe and transatlantic bond waking up of the European Union and strong resistance that can be seen in sanctions against Russia and the candidacy statutes to Moldova and Ukraine and accepting the permanent threat and consequences of Russia against different countries, including Western Balkans, actually pushed the European Union to transform its energy policy and to reduce and almost neutralize dependence on Russia in terms of gas. After 24th of February last year, Europe has shown a continuity of clearer policy towards the countries of the Western Balkans and that is encouraging. Unfortunately, in the last couple of years, we had a pretty high lack of interest of the European Union to continue their most successful policy, enlargement policy and to complete the defined vision of uniting Europe. It seems to me that the enlargement policy by the European Union and the invasion against Russia was dominantly administrative and since then European Union started emphasizing the geopolitical aspect of integration of Western Balkans into the European Union and indicates to how important it is to have the stability of the region if we want to have stability of Europe and your Atlantic area. Unfortunately, I have to note this that the time that is behind us actually has consequences. In that time, the Russian influence actually substituted the logical influence of European Union NATO. The reforms stopped in all countries of the Western Balkans, so I can tell you from the perspective of Montenegro after the European Union gave an offer for Montenegro to continue intensive reforms to use its position of the leader because Montenegro is realistically a leader in the negotiation process with European Union. We did not have proper reaction of Montenegro and that is a consequence of what I talked to you about, that Montenegro unfortunately became a victim of the Russian hybrid warfare in the Western Balkans and that for two and a half years after the change of power in August 2020, we have had two governments that in the meantime lost confidence but the other one functions in the technical term of office, so we had two governments that flirted more with regional nationalisms and with Russian geopolitical interests. Then they were dedicated to reforms and then working on finalizing Montenegro's path towards European Union. When it comes to the other significant influence in the Balkans, the Chinese influence, I would like to share this with you as well in my introduction. I would like to say to you that this influence is obvious, it is present, particularly in terms of economy and it is most prominent, it has been more prominent in the implementation of the projects of key infrastructure, not equally in all countries. It does exist in Montenegro but it is particularly focused in the largest country of our region in Serbia. I would say that in line with what the Chinese policy is traditionally, we can say that this is a long-term strategy and it seems that the presence in the region is somehow dedicated and focused on the China coming closer to the European Union and it seems to me that since they launched the initiative 16 plus one, they are trying through the countries of the Central and Southeastern Europe to come closer to the European Union. Chinese companies are active, they take the space for investment that unfortunately is not sufficiently used by our Western partners. China, and I want to say this, so far, respects our freedom of choice. They never interfere in our internal issues but as we can see, as everybody else, that the partnership between China and Russia is being strengthened. We saw the recent visit of Mr. C2 Moscow and the world is going into a decisive period. We are witnessing the birth of the new global order, we will see the new geopolitical situation being created. This is the fight of the big ones to get a better position in the geopolitical architecture. Unfortunately, we know that it never ends at that. In spite of the unity of democratic forces, there are differences, first of all, in economic interests and it seems to me that it is particularly visible within the European Union but also within NATO. We do not expect China to be a partner to Europe in building democracy but they will try to take their position wisely. We equally believe that they will have partnership relations with Russia but I don't think that they will ever damage their own interests. The issue of trade in energy, climate change, global health will not be able to be solved if the world is strictly divided but regardless of the character of power and structures in power, the solution will be possible only in the world that will be based on rules. Montenegro is highly interested in what position Europe will take in the new geopolitical scene. It's logical, we are a part of Europe in geography, history and culture. So, to take the position that belongs to it, Europe will have to articulate its strategic interests in a more clear way in its own territory and within the Euro-Atlantic partnership which is the best framework for European interests and which is something that brought not only to American Europe but also to the entire world very good benefits after the Second World War. So, this is my introductory note to your very inspiring thesis and it will be my pleasure to answer all your questions of course. Well, Mr. President, thank you for those comments. I think that was very comprehensive and it covered the region, it covered the situation in Montenegro, Europe, the world. So, I think you've given us a good platform for taking the conversation in a lot of different directions. I want to start, if I may, by asking a question close to home for you there in your own region, the situation between Serbia and Kosovo. As you know, the European Union special representative has set ambitious new deadlines, benchmarks for normalization, has ramped up diplomacy really with both parties. Serbia has stuck very closely to Russia in its position since the beginning of the Ukraine war and I think we see in the dispute, for example, over license plates an opportunity for disruption and derailing the dialogue. How do you see the situation with Kosovo and Serbia? How optimistic are you that the new EU approach will work? That would be my first question. We can pause there if you want to take a crack at it and then I'll go on to the next question. Thank you very much for a very inspiring question. I guess you remember the difficult crises that former Yugoslavia went through and you remember that in its formal end, after the Dayton Agreement was signed, three very difficult questions remained. One question was the question of relations between Serbia and Kosovo and the other question of relations between northern Macedonia with its neighbors and the third question that remained unsolved was the question of functionality of Bosnia. Unfortunately, even today, 20 years later or 27, 28 years later actually, after the Dayton Agreement was signed, we have these questions not finally solved. First, we had a problem of Macedonia with Greece and after that, as you can see, the problem moved to the next neighbors. So they still do not have a certain date of the negotiations or the beginning of negotiations of northern Macedonia with European Union and the process in negotiations between Serbia and Kosovo is still uncertain and unfortunately, I have to say that the most hopeless for me at this moment is the question of the dysfunctionality of Bosnia and Herzegovina. So development in the world led to the following situation. The United States that had the key role in the international policy towards former Yugoslavia until 1995, in the meantime, focused. It's foreign policy attention on other issues and these questions remained unsolved and there is no alternative capacity in the international community that could adequately solve them. So today, we are faced with the situation that in the changed geopolitical relations and circumstances, Russia that traditionally used Balkans for achieving their own interests abuses Western Balkans even today to spread their doctrine of destruction in the European soil. Absolutely clear. We have the doctrine of destruction that Russia already in 2013 shaped and they are today waging their war against the West, particularly against Europe. In Europe everywhere, they encourage retrograde policies and in the western Balkans, they don't need to seek hide and law for them. They exist in the western Balkans traditionally and they show their full destructive capacity in the early 90s as we remember that when we had war in former Yugoslavia and that's when we had 150,000 people died. Unfortunately, those policies got revived with the support of Russia. Unfortunately, and they are restored and revived believing that they are right that they just did not have adequate circumstances in the 90s and they believe that now they have adequate circumstances because Russia is stronger and more engaged in the Western Balkans. So Russia is playing down also with the question of relations between Serbia and Kosovo. I believe you registered this. Whenever there is an opportunity to see a serious breakthrough in the implementation and solution to this problem, Russia gets involved and they get involved immediately if there is a progress in Bosnia and Herzegovina. They immediately encourage something in Republic of Sipska trying to destroy the opportunity of Bosnia and Herzegovina to become a functional state. So unfortunately, I want to tell you that Western Balkans is still a battlefield where Russia is trying to use its destructive policies to achieve their anti-European goals. And I have to tell you another thing. As the president of Montenegro and all the citizens of Montenegro, we all support strongly the negotiation process between Serbia and Kosovo. We are very much aware that the solution of that problem would contribute very much to more reliable stability and that maybe after that Serbia could focus on its own European future and that it would be excellent for the part of all countries from the Western Balkans towards the European Union. Therefore, we strongly support the efforts of the international community just like you. I am skeptical though about these ambitiously set deadlines for signing this agreement. Everything that I see on a daily basis in the policy of Serbia leads me to that conclusion. Serbia does not accept that Kosovo is independent. Whatever they say, Serbia is trying in any possible way to bring things back to the beginning and they are trying to show and prove that Kosovo should be within Serbia. And I think it is the revision, attempted revision, but in vain, just like the Putin's policy to restore Soviet Union. Serbia lost Kosovo, unfortunately, and they lost Kosovo because they continuously had a wrong policy. It was a policy even before Milosevic and particularly in the time of Milosevic when they had a climax. They did their policy in such a way that they lost war against nature. They provoked NATO airstrikes and logically lost Kosovo. So I think that the huge problem is that today's Serbia, led by new state policy or led by current leadership, still hopes that they can bring things back to the beginning. And that's why I'm skeptical about whether the deadlines that are set by the European and American negotiators are realistic. And I will finish by saying something that I already mentioned in the introduction. It seems to me that the negotiators from our Western partners want to put Serbia in a good mood so that they are constructive in the negotiations with Kosovo. And I think that they give them too many concessions, too many concessions to Serbia. And I think Serbia uses that to deteriorate their relations in the region. So I'm afraid that in the end we will not get the agreement that will be signed or that we will not get it within the envisaged deadline. But we are now getting something else than that is deteriorated relations of Serbia with our neighbors because in order to achieve and make their project of Serbian world coming through and because of their need to rule, not Serbia, but to rule Serbs in the region, they interfere into sovereignty of neighbors. And that's why they are deteriorating the relations. So I think that it is very important that the negotiators and our Western partners truly analyze all these things that I am indicating to so that in the end they don't to work against the principles that are common and that can lead us to our desired goal. Thank you. Well, thank you for that very detailed answer, Mr. President. It was helpful to hear your perspective on that. I want to move on to a question about the overall situation in Europe and NATO. But I can't resist asking one follow-up question about the situation in the Western Balkans. You mentioned North Macedonia and this has been a real success story in many regards. The breakthrough, I mean the compromise and the persistence that it required from Skopje and Athens, the name deal was a tectonic shift and then of course followed by North Macedonia's entry into NATO which a lot of people thought would never happen. And now the process, the path seems stalled for North Macedonia's relates to the European Union. But we're a lot further along than we were even a few years ago. And I wonder from your perspective as someone who's been in a national leadership role in the Western Balkans country for several years now, do you see a lesson of any kind in practical diplomacy? I mean at the level of resolving conflict, is there a model or a lesson from the dynamic between Greece and North Macedonia about conflict mitigation, conflict prevention that can be applied to other conflicts in the region or even other conflicts in the world? I wonder what your thoughts are on what, if any, lessons we can learn from Prespa that could have a carryover effect. Is it just completely unique? Was that a once in a century moment or the dynamics were sweet generous and unique to that situation or is there any model or lesson that we could extract in using conflicts elsewhere? It is a very good question and I think that we should take two lessons from this experience. The first one is that we make serious mistakes. All of us when we selfishly emphasize only national interest and to the detriment of the common interest. The conflict between Macedonian Greece about certain issues that are related to their relations is today realistically something that opened the space for infiltration of Russian policy into that area and it's not good either for Northern Macedonia nor to Greece. And I think it should be a serious warning even in this current misunderstanding between Bulgaria and Northern Macedonia. So in addition to national interests that are legitimate, we have to understand the common interest and that stability and prosperity in every part of Europe including the Western Balkans. If we want Europe to be stable and safe, if we want Europe to be spared and protected from a line influence in any part of its territory and so that we can together aim at prosperity, that is a very important lesson. The second lesson is that we have to respect the momentum. Today unfortunately it is very difficult to expect that Northern Macedonia will ensure consensus to amend the constitution that Bulgarian side is expecting to approve of the beginning of the negotiations with Northern Macedonia. It is much more difficult to do it today than earlier. And I want to tell you when we miss the momentum then later on we have problems that in spite of goodwill and I do not know that Northern Macedonia has good will to amend the constitution and to start the negotiations. But today I seriously wonder whether Northern Macedonia can ensure the required consensus in the parliament to amend the constitution and I'm really afraid that they might miss the deadline and it seems to me that the deadline is by the end of this year or by November when Northern Macedonia has to do it and I think that they will miss yet another deadline for the beginning of the negotiations with European Union. It seems to me that these are two important lessons that we would have to take into account much more everywhere in Europe and in the entire region much more than earlier. Thank you for that. That was that was valuable. Let me now zoom out a little bit and look at the wider map of Europe. You mentioned in your comments the impact that the Ukraine War is having in Europe and the European security architecture NATO. I think it's pretty clear that that war has shown how costly it is that we have this unfinished business. The West I mean Western institutions have unfinished business in Eastern Europe, Western Balkans. Your country successfully navigated the path to NATO. You're still on the long path to the EU and the pattern that seems to present itself in the European neighborhood in so many cases is similar to that that there's progress towards NATO but the path to the EU is stalled the Eastern Partnership program for example that the European Union launched around the time of the Bucharest summit and open door policy on NATO. We really have seen slow movement on the European Union side and it seems to be getting even more protracted and slower the more intense the security dynamic becomes and I think the Ukraine War could affect that in either a positive or a negative way. So I wonder what are your thoughts this this war right next door? Do you see this as potentially galvanizing Europe into a greater seriousness about taking responsibility and I mean the European Union specifically taking greater responsibility for the stability of Western Balkans, Ukraine, Moldova. Do you think it'll jolt or prompt European leaders to get more serious about those responsibilities or do you think it'll do the opposite that the fact that we have a hot war underway could actually lead European leaders to become more risk averse or more cautious about expanding European institutions? I wonder what your thought is on that? Well it's interesting to observe what's going on after the 24th of February 2022. As you remember in the introduction I criticized the law to the policy of enlargement of the European Union until that time and practically European Union slowed down the enlargement policy for years and then in the last couple of years before the 24th of February 2022 they almost stopped it and it seems to me that after that day Europe has understood well how important it is to continue the policy of enlargement and uniting Europe and that integration of the Western Balkans is very important for the stability and security of Europe as a whole. What I hope is that Europe will show persistence in that perception of things not only during the conflict in Ukraine but after that as well because we will need a lot of time to deal with the consequences of what I call the value devastation of the Western Balkans. But I would like to tell you on the example of Montenegro what it looks like very concretely. These days I am in the election campaign for the presidential elections and I have to explain to people why in those elections yet again we are at the same crossroad at the same junction although we believe that for four times already we successfully passed that junction. First time in 1996 when we had the conflict with Milosevic's policy in Montenegro. Second time in 1999 when we did not accept Milosevic's offer to be a part of their war conflict with NATO Alliance and the third time when in a peaceful and democratic way in 2006 we restored our independence and in 2016 and 17 for the fourth time when in spite of the attempted coup rejoined NATO. All of those were junction exactly the same as the one that we have to pass today and then the logical question is why do we have to go by the same junction again and again for the five times and I will tell you it's because Europe was not active enough in encouraging reforms in the region of the Western Balkans and Europe did not contribute to our societies moving faster towards the European goal. We have to understand Western Balkans is a very specific part of Europe. It is the region where people are not born with European values. It's not inherent to us. This region waged wars much longer than it developed in its history and the consequence is that very frequently we have instabilities here and out of the entire experience it becomes clear that our self-regulatory mechanisms of stability are not reliable that we need to strengthen them and they can be strengthened only through integration so between the stability of the Western Balkans and integration into European Union and NATO there is an equality sign it is the same and we did not have that encouragement in the last couple of years so instead of that Russia got in and emboldened or encouraged the nationalists and nationalists are back at their own stories and they offer alternative to European story and their alternative is an illusion. They claim that multi-ethnic democracy is not possible in the Western Balkans. They claim that we are so different and so intolerant to each other that instead of multi-ethnic democracy we need to change the borders and have national and religiously homogenous states so that the Western Balkans continues living outside of the mainstream of Europe and Euro-Atlantic area. Unfortunately today again through the presidential elections we have to go through the same dilemma for the fifth time and it's now served on us thanks to the geopolitical circumstances but this only confirms what I said that it is very easy for the Western Balkans to slide into mistakes and it's very important that Europe now after it realized fully the geopolitical importance of the Western Balkans supported by NATO European Union should focus now on the area of the Western Balkans I think that Union and European Union and NATO have to say Western Balkans is the zone of our responsibility full stop there is no room for others we have to lead the process of emancipation and europeanization of all countries and societies of the Western Balkans if that happens reforms will continue in the Western Balkans and we can talk about foreseeable future of all countries of the Western Balkans in the European Union and almost all of them at least in NATO. Mr. President that was very helpful and you're being very generous with your time I want to turn to the audience and we have our first question from the audience that I'm going to take the liberty of passing over to you and the question is how do you Mr. President see the war in Ukraine ending do you envision the status quo returning that's the question from the audience so the end of the end game in Ukraine and what what things could look like afterwards after the war I would like to say that the least problem for Ukraine is that I don't know the answer to this question but it seems to me that the situation is that nobody knows the answer to that question including those who participate in the war of course we all hope that an authoritative peace initiative will happen and try to lead this war until the peaceful end because we all know that after every war we have to have peace initiative the sooner the better the sooner the devastation will be smaller well the question is and the most difficult question is what is the possible scenario in the various international meetings where I participate as the president of Montenegro I can have various ideas how this war can be ended I always keep warning of how sensitive and delicate the position of president Zelensky is we should all try to step in his shoes for a moment I mean he's at the head of the country which was brutally attacked and which lost a huge number of people soldiers and civilians and now the question is how much room for maneuver he has at all for any serious compromise that will almost probably be proposed by those who will be the architects of the peace agreement for Ukraine so that's why I think that the situation is very complicated and to be honest I am afraid very much that this war thanks to various interests and among other things thanks to the fact that nobody is seriously dealing with any peace initiative I'm afraid that this war might last quite long let me ask one follow-up question that I think is the obvious one in light of some of your other comments about NATO and the European Union when you look at the situation in Ukraine and you think about possible scenarios for how it will end in a diplomatic or military sense if you look a little further out beyond that what do you think the future looks like for Ukraine with respect to the West I mean I think everyone would agree that Ukraine is choosing a Western future but I don't yet see a consensus either in the United States or in Europe on exactly what that what that is what the institutional dimension or nature of that relationship should look like do you do you see Ukraine becoming a member of NATO do you see it becoming a member of the European Union give me a little sense of what your what what the crystal ball looks like from your perspective on the future of of Ukraine longer term you are right when you mentioned the broader aspects of the conflict in Ukraine and it's absolutely clear it's not a bilateral conflict this is a Russian aggression against the western system of values where Russia logically chooses Europe as the target they don't want to choose america as the target of course but of course this is clearly an attack against the western system of values they are trying to destroy european system of values and european unity and that's why you and I can agree in being happy that Europe recognized this and they united and among those who provide great support to Ukraine because we are aware that we are defending european security in Ukraine today so i think so when it comes to the future of Ukraine i have no doubts the entire scenario pushed Ukraine stronger towards the west and i think Europe was responsible in their reaction they gave Ukraine the status of a candidate and i think that at the end of the war in Ukraine we will know not only what the epilogue of the war is but we will know also whether the west managed to persist on one of its fundamental principles and that is that every country and every nation can freely choose their path towards for the future or we shall go back to the period and rules of the cold war where you have to get a license from a bigger neighbor for something that should be our interest i sense helichop as a president of a small country and the country whose entire history is fighting for freedom i sincerely hope that we will all persist on that and that we will not allow any kind of revision of that type if that remains so i believe that Ukraine will continue moving in a fast manner and a dedicated manner towards membership in the european union and within that we need to analyze also the issue of membership in NATO i believe that it will be more subtle and that it will be solved on a higher level not only on the level of Ukraine but there's something that should encourage all of us i mean if this situation with Ukraine encouraged today the traditionally neutral Finland and Sweden to choose to become members of NATO then there is no doubt that this will certainly be the future of Ukraine so when that future will come i think it will be an element of a kind of peace agreement for Ukraine but i have no dilemma that the future direction of Ukraine will be pro-western and that it will start by its membership in european union thank you for those thoughts let me group together two questions that came from audience members that have to do with the domestic situation inside Montenegro you mentioned the presidential elections one of our viewers has asked the following the us and others expressed concerns that russia would interfere in the montenegro and presidential election but that doesn't appear to have happened can you comment please and then let me add a second question is domestic in focus mr president thank you for your time today corruption can create fissures in government and society which make hybrid threats more impactful what is montenegro doing to combat corruption so the first question was on russian interference in the presidential election and the second was on corruption and montenegro and efforts to combat corruption well i wish if i could confirm the assumption contained in the question number one about russia not interfering it is just an illusion and people have rights have rights to have illusions particularly if they observe the situation from a distance i will go back to the definition that i shared with you russian world is the same as the serbian world russian policy in their region is equal as the serbian policy in their region the most important instruments of both of those policies are their orthodox churches and i believe you follow that very well the russian patria kirill on a daily basis blesses aggression against ukraine that's what the officials of the serbian orthodox church do regardless whether they are in serbia or in montenegro and they are very active in policy in politics i would say today without any risk of being mistaken that serbian church and russian church today are only to a very negligible extent religious organizations they are absolutely political organizations both of them so we do have instruments of the russian soft power in the territory of the western Balkans and today in montenegro and we should not forget the churches are not involved by going to people's homes and preach no they go to people's homes and bring money illegal money that is coming from Moscow and from belgrade so unfortunately russia and serbia are very much involved in this election process this is something that has become a tradition unfortunately i am sorry that although i was warning since 2016 there was no adequate or more adequate reaction in some of the western addresses i believe that they saw my warnings as yet another russian phobic country in europe in addition to poland and both the countries but we can see today that it was not a russian phobia it was just a perception of certain hybrid activities of russia in a very sensitive region as western balkans i hope that we will manage to get out of this problem successfully and i hope that we will manage to preserve the domination of europe and europe and the coliseum montenegro and that montenegro will continue being a responsible member of nature and that montenegro will continue its path towards european union membership as for corruption it is a legitimate question of course and i said already that this region not only montenegro this region waged war much more frequently in its history than it developed i mean if you have every 30 or 40 years at least a local war and if the social problems are solved by arms then there was no time for the rule of law and it's very important for montenegro that in 2017 it became a member of nato and that it enjoys today a higher quality of security and that it has the stronger feeling of security of every citizen and that today we can deal with some important questions that arise in the times of peace and there are two important questions first the rule of law and within that serious combating of crime and corruption and the second is development of economy which should ensure our citizens a higher level of living standard in the future in parallel with the membership in european union i think that the structures that were in power by 2020 were working seriously on both topics but as i said in the last two and a half years we lost time for montenegro we will try through the results of the presidential elections and then parliamentary elections that will happen in june to bring montenegro back to the right track so that montenegro can continue dealing with reforms and achieving standards and going towards european union and the condition for that is the efficient fight against crime and corruption and improvement of the rule of law there is progress i want to encourage you there is progress in this field in montenegro and i truly believe that we have capacities to deal with that problem mr president i think we have time for one more question from the audience and what i'm gonna do is i'm gonna tack on a similar question from myself i'm gonna kind of bundle these two together because i think they're very similar and let you give us your closing comments on this the question from the audience is as follows recent nato polling shows that montenegro and citizens support citizen support for nato is at its lowest point what can be done to improve citizen support for nato and i let me tack on to that a question that occurs to me that's it's similar but it's a little bit broader and it has to do with your legacy as a leader you've as i mentioned at the start of the conversation you've been in positions of national leadership in montenegro now for more than three decades so i think you've had a first hand a front row view of the history of your country from the time of the end of the cold war and break up of yugoslavia peaceful separation from serbia so i mentioned at the beginning of the call montenegro as success story in the balkans because of your peaceful resolution of conflict your path towards the west well in light of this question from the i would i would put it in terms of the person from the audience has asked if if support for nato is declining in montenegro as you look back on the on the path that montenegro has come come down how confident are you or how optimistic that that path that you've worked on for your country the path towards the west how secure is that legacy how secure is the western path from montenegro the topic is excellent for the end of our conversation today i already told you i'm an optimist when it comes to the opportunities for democratic society i mean for democratic society the the best opportunity to confirm that its choice is right and that it is persistent to deal with the obstacles towards the goal are the elections we have presidential and parliamentary elections within two months and our society has the possibility to confirm its persistence of its decision to take the european-euroatlantic path but allow me to connect these two questions as you suggested i told you that in the western balkans people are not born with european-euroatlantic values they are not inherent to them it's absolutely opposite we need a long process of emancipation of these societies so these societies can reach the european system of values and we can understand the advantages of belonging to your atlantic community in this process it is very important that at the head of our countries there are leaders who lead those states towards that goal i have been in that role leading the country and frequently i made the moves for which i believe that they are good for my country right for my country although most of the people in my country or anywhere did not understand it let me not go far i mean i will just mention the time when milosevic introduced yugoslavia into the war against nature at the montenegro was a part of that country it was a part of that yugoslavia and it was not really expected that i as the then president of montenegro come forward and say this is not our war we will not participate in it we want to become members of nature as soon as possible most of the people in montenegro did not understand that message at the time but a year after that i met people who used to judge me who then told me you were right we did not die in that war we did not lose our material goods and now we have clearly opened path towards our goal why does it happen now that the popularity of nature is declining in montenegro because of what i described in one of my answers so thanks to the change of structures in power which happened in mid 2020 and which happened under the strong pressure of russia and syria and with serious lack of understanding of our western partners serious misunderstanding and lack of understanding because the western partners at that time really advocated or accepted one political goal they made it absolute and that is to change the structures in power just because they were in power for a long time i do understand that that is a valid point i am a democrat and i know that changing the structures in power is very important for the good democratic pace of us of one society but if you make that an absolute goal change at any cost then you risk seriously to get something worse than you had and that's what happened to us in the last two and a half years we had governments that flirt with greater syria nationalism and that flirt with russian geopolitical interest in this region and because of that we are now losing support to NATO membership because you don't have leadership at the head of this state that believe that our future part of membership in NATO and european parts are not proper i mean they don't believe that it is proper that's when i will go back to the key message our elections now presidential and parliamentary are great opportunities if we use them in the best way in the good way and if montenegro chooses and i will not go to individual solutions or party solutions in parliamentary elections but if montenegro chooses sincere representatives of europe and euro-atlantic future of montenegro we should be logical because the research has shown that the public supports montenegro in membership in the european union with over 75 percent so if the citizens confirm that in these elections giving their trust to such parties we will get leadership in the state again to continue leading the country towards that goal while that is the commitment of the largest majority of people who support that not only on the verbal level but accept the values and their commitments it will take time but it is important that in the meantime the country has the leadership that will firmly lead it towards the euro-atlantic vision and your atlantic goal this is my response i spoke at length and i spoke in details but i believe this is proper for the topic that you put on the table thank you well mr president you have been very generous with your time and your thoughts the thoughts that you have shared with us have been comprehensive and covered a really wide waterfront and i particularly appreciated the reminder that you've given us all of what's at stake in ukraine it is about more than ukraine and and so i appreciated you putting that in a broader context and battle of ideas and global geopolitics and also your reflections on stability in the western Balkans and so many of the dynamics there that remain fluid and they're not self-contained it was a reminder of the responsibility that we have also in the west to keep up our engagement there so so thank you for the thoughts that you've shared we've gone a little bit over the clock and we appreciate you bearing with us thank you to our audience members for very interesting and provocative questions and of course thank you to my colleagues at the u.s. institute of peace for hosting the uh discussion and we hope that all of you will continue to follow our work in the days ahead i think we're gonna we'll sign off with that thank you mr president thank you mr vas Mitchell for very interesting conversation today thank you so much