 if we use it as a backup. Cool. Okay, so there's that and in one minute I will close all the rooms. Awesome. 30 seconds. We can't count. Katie, you're not at the live event in LA? No, I am based in London so I need to, well, traveling to you as apparently it's possible so yeah, I'm just here in London attending virtually. Yeah, but next year. Sorry, if you're ready I'll close the rooms now. Please do so. Yeah, okay. Are they gonna close in one minute? Yeah, that's something I just learned. Which is good. Yeah, I think everyone has one minute to return by themselves as well. Oh, there they go. Hello everyone, welcome back to the main room. We weren't rushing back but it was we'd already seen the message saying we were about to be whisked back so we kind of wound down. Just very proactively just yeah, which is absolutely fine. I think we're gonna wait for everyone to join as well and then we're gonna go live on the platform on Twitch and then we're gonna start the panel. So is that going out on cloud native TV or something else? Yeah, it's going to be part of the Twitch but well it's not going to be part of the cloud native TV because that's a separate program but it's still going to be part of the and it's going to be streamed on the CNC of platforms. Katie for not talking as a platform. Sorry, Katie for not talking. Should we go camera off? I remember last year it was like that. So actually I'm going to introduce some of the best practices as well. Yeah, ideally. Okay, I think we have pretty much everyone back. Hopefully. Oh, we have someone else in the waiting room as well. Cool. So the way we're going to run the panel is more of an interactive session. So this is pretty much your end user prime time with the CNC FNT OC leadership. So feel free to keep your camera on. If you have a question, definitely put your camera on. You can raise your hand and ask it directly or you can put the question in the chat as well if you're comfortable sharing your audio and video. So again, we were trying to make this as interactive as possible and pretty much make it work for you as well. What I'm going to do now well we're going to stream this panel to Twitch. So I'm just going to go live on this one and then we're going to kick start with the actual panel. Any questions? I can answer any unclearties that I can deal with at the moment. If in that case, let me just hopefully go live from Zoom to Twitch and then we're going to start. Hello everyone and welcome to the end user partner summit, a panel that will center on the strategy vision and how to best navigate and contribute to the cloud native as an end user. We have an incredible line of panelists today from the CNCF and TLC leadership, including Priyanka Sharma, Chris Anujik, Liz Rice and Erin Boyd. I'm Katie Gamangy and I will host this panel. Currently I am the ecosystem advocate at CNCF and I am leading the end user community, which is a vendor neutral group of more than 160 organizations that use cloud native to build and distribute their products. Just as a reminder, we are moderating this panel in Zoom with questions from our end users attendees. However, we will monitor the questions from any live streaming platforms such as Twitch, YouTube Live, Periscope and LinkedIn. And throughout the stream, we'll make sure to monitor these questions and pass them to the panel. Now, before we dive into some of the questions, can I ask the panel to introduce themselves? Starting with Priyanka. Sure thing. Thank you so much for organizing this, Katie. Hi, everyone. I'm Priyanka Sharma and I'm the general manager of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation or CNCF. Right now I'm normally based in San Francisco, but right now I'm in Los Angeles for our first ever hybrid KubeCon, Cloud NativeCon. And I'm so glad to see the virtual element popping just like before, while we also have the in-person joining in. So very nice to meet all of you. And if you ever have any questions or anything, I'm most accessible through Twitter. I spend way too much time there. So you can find me there and I'll put my handle in the chat here if that will be helpful for people. Awesome. Chris, would you like to go next? Hi, everyone. Chris Anizic. I have the fun job of being CTO of the Cloud Native Computing Foundation, kind of serving our project community and all the craziness that kind of happens across our over 100 plus projects that we have now. I'll be in and out through KubeCon both physically and virtually this week. So feel free to find me whether it's through Twitter or a Slack DM, but looking forward to kind of catching up with a lot of folks. It's just been way too long since we've had an opportunity to connect with folks face to face and trying to kind of survive in this hybrid world, managing my physical time and virtual time across these different mediums. So good to meet everyone. Thank you for being here, both of you. And now we're going to go to the TOC side. So Liz, would you like to introduce yourself, please, as well? Sure. Thanks, Katie. Yes, my name is Liz Rice. I am Chief Open Source Officer at ISO Valence, which is the originating company of the Cillian project. And I'm the chair of the Technical Oversight Committee for the CNCF. I'm calling in from London, so it is great that we can do this hybrid and being able to be there, even though I'm not physically there. But if you are physically there, I'm much more likely to be awake early. Don't expect a quick response in the evening or any time because I will definitely be asleep. Definitely envious of everyone attending in person at KubeCon at the moment. So, yeah, let's have Erin, could you please introduce yourself as well? Sure. My name is Erin Boyd and I am a TOC member. I have been part of the Kubernetes and CNCF community for years. I've had the great pleasure of working with Liz and Chris for a very long time. And as this ecosystem continues to evolve, I previously worked at Red Hat. So I feel like the end user community is amazing and that I've gotten both the vendor perspective and also the end user perspective of not only creating the technologies, but how we use them and can make them better for everyone. So welcome and I'm glad people are able to attend in LA in person. I'm located in Montana and it's about 25 degrees and snowing. So I'm sure you all are enjoying much better weather than I am right now. I've actually heard that the weather is brilliant there at the moment. So thank you everyone for being here today. I'm really excited to have again the TOC and the CNCF leadership here together in the same room. So the discussion mostly is going to be focused on how end users can navigate the landscape and how they can best contribute to the wider ecosystem as well. And as such, my first question is going to be around end user organizations that are currently present in a wide range of industries and sectors from innovative startups to well-renowned enterprises. I would like to hear maybe your thoughts in why do you think the end users currently are at the forefront of the cloud native ecosystem? I can chime in with a couple of thoughts. So I think we, you know, team cloud native, we built, we started off as a group of, you know, almost like dreamers and like visionaries who work together to create this paradigm of computing that is now relevant to every company in the world. And that's happened for so many reasons and COVID-19 was such a challenging time for us all has skyrocketed that, right? I was looking at research and it said that almost, this is from McKinsey and company, and they were saying that almost every technology, every executive that they are talking about in, that wasn't me, but every, the most executives that they talk to don't see tech as a cost center anymore. Now, it's the way to get edge, to get innovation and to compete with your competitors. And so I think the awareness has, first it started with the developers in these companies and now at the top levels too, they're all on the same page. And so basically the nature of our community is evolving to be much more about the end users, much more end users participating. So it's the trends of the time, every company is becoming a tech company, COVID accelerated that, the developers were already interested by what we were doing. And so I feel like the stargazer dreamer types that we were in the beginning has now been joined by the pragmatists and the operators. And those are the people who will run the world. Sorry, I'm going to jump in there. I completely agree with what Priyanka was saying there. And when cloud native first started, kind of almost by definition it came from the world of vendors. And increasingly as adoption grows, it's important to hear what end users actually need and what problems they need solving. Successful vendors are obviously pretty good at figuring out what solutions to create, but they do that by talking to end users. I feel like it's very important that the cloud native community continues to be a successful ecosystem. It has to provide meaningful, helpful solutions to end users. It has to enable people to contribute together. And it has to foster an environment where business can take place. It's all about open source, but surrounding that is a healthy ecosystem that basically enables lots of people to do their job. And that applies whether they're vendors or end users. So a healthy mix where ultimately the end users are the people that we're solving problems for. That's why they're so important. Oh, Priyanka, I was about to actually ask the technology perspective. So here we go. Yeah, I think there's like two macro trends going on where one, I think a lot of end user organizations, adopting organizations have wised up a little bit and are holding their vendors in check a little bit by requiring a lot of this stuff to be developed in the open. So they have a little bit more clear vision on the roadmap. And just being able to participate, this kind of old fashioned private customer advisory board stuff just doesn't really work anymore and users are demanding a lot of the innovation to happen in the open at the end of the day to keep things a little bit fair overall and a little bit more beneficial for them. And the other big trend is a lot of companies have decided that they have to bring software in-house or more comfortable in sharing things. So if you look at kind of the latest CNCF projects, you have things like backstage from Spotify, Envoy from Lyft, a lot of these technologies are being born from end user company solving problems and they're more comfortable sharing these things. And I think having a forum in CNCF to kind of allow this innovation and collaboration amongst end users and vendors and kind of keeping things fair is super healthy and just good for technology innovation. Awesome. Now I would like to maybe transition how end users operate within the cloud native ecosystem to maybe understand better some of the positions they can hold in the community. And I'm going to focus more a bit on the TOC side. So this is more a question for Liz and Erin, but everyone else please feel free to share your thoughts as well. Now, after this year's last year's election, four out of 11 TOCs are coming from end user organizations such as Apple, Spotify, and CERN. And I would like maybe for Erin to share a bit more about the role and the responsibility she's holding as an end user TOC. And maybe I would like Liz to share how the TOCs can make impactful decisions for shaping the cloud native landscape. Sure. And maybe we could touch on the question that's here in the chat about the widespread feeling that the community is dominated by vendors. I think the TOC really has a mission to be able to encourage the diversity and bring in projects even kind of at their infancy in the instantiation of an idea that's well formed. And that's where Sandbox comes in. And so the TOC really has a responsibility to look across the ecosystem, regardless of the size of the company that's producing it, but the health of the community behind it. So I think that that helps create a the ability for even small companies to be able to participate, have their ideas seen and heard and to grow it throughout the community and understand that. And in terms of end users, I really do think that they keep us grounded in what is actually needed. I think many times as engineers, we are dreamers and we should be and we love to innovate. But oftentimes we need to understand that some of these things are very hard to operate and use and we can make them better and the end users help us. And regardless of the role that people play within a company, I think having these different levels within the TOC to propose projects and understand their merit by the health and the acceptance in the community as well as the end user perspective allows us to have maybe a more level playing ground given to what Henrik's question is in chat. Liz, did you want to add anything there? Yeah, sure. Confusing pop-up about muting myself or unmuting myself. Okay. So I think one important, well, a couple of important points. One is we, as a community, wanted to get more end user involvement. And we opened up additional seats on the TOC to end users to get that additional input to the TOC. But the second important point is that that doesn't change the role of the TOC. The TOC is here to provide the kind of the technical oversight to set the technical direction. And in practice, a lot of that comes from looking at projects and making decisions about which projects, whether they fit into the landscape, what level of maturity they're at. And that role that we're performing there doesn't change, whether we have however many end users we have, it's still the same function. In terms of getting involved, not only do we have these dedicated seats in, you know, in all the different sort of parts of the CNCF, including the TOC, we also have, particularly in the technical community, technical advisory groups. Cornelia from the TOC is going to be speaking about this in her keynote, but the technical advisory groups are how we scale our efforts in the TOC, how we lean on expertise in the community. And it would be amazing to have more end user participation in those technical advisory groups. So I thoroughly encourage you and your teams to get involved in the different areas that you're interested in. And that's how we can make the best use of and leverage your expertise. Those groups are absolutely open to as many end users as want to get involved. And just a quick clarification, the technical advisory group used to be called SIGS. So just in case you are used to that, that's been fairly recent, just to make sure we're all using the same understanding of what those existed. It's a good point, yeah. Now, I definitely would like to encourage everyone to participate in the TAGS or actually get elected as a TOC as well. That's absolutely an amazing role to have in the community. And we actually have a point where we can shape the landscape and actually provide your perspective as an end user as well. Now, I would like to direct the conversation and be more into the future and what's on the horizon. So lately we had a lot of push to or not necessarily a lot of push, but we tried to increase the visibility of financial institutions that adopt cloud native and try to create case studies or provide those stories to the entire community. And I would like to ask Chris and Priyanka, what do you think are the next organizations to adopt cloud native? Do you think we're still going to be within the FinOps phase, regulated industries, automotive? What do you see in the horizon? I'll chime in with my experience here is that I think and mass a lot of different types of organizations are starting to adopt cloud native. Just a month or so ago, I was in Europe and I did a end user roadshow where I ended up meeting all kinds of companies and I met Audi, Daimler, Spotify, Deutsche Telekom, which is a telco, so not exactly end user. But all of these very different types of companies were really far along their cloud native journeys. All of them had robust big teams in their companies that were the cloud native teams that were creating the developer experience for by the way, in the cases of places like Audi and Daimler, like tens of thousands of engineers, if not more. And I was frankly really impressed by this leapfrogging that has happened. It really felt different from like two years ago. So just based on that in-person experience, I would say automotives seem to be all in and working quite hard. And that type of world, whether it's not just automotives, it's even like the plane and train people, they're also getting involved. And I think very seriously working on cloud native. So that's one vertical, I would say. And then the other, of course, is the telco vertical where I think telcos are so right for cloud native now and they know it. That's the best part. Like I don't have to tell them. And we are doing efforts with defining what a cloud native network function is because that's really what one big thing they need to truly go cloud native. So those are two verticals that are, I say, immediate expansion and then I'm sure there are industries that I haven't met yet and it's like cloud natives booming. Yeah. I mean, to echo kind of what Priyanka said, I think it's a lot of these industries who may have been a little bit, I don't want to say late to their digital transformation game, but maybe have realized that software has to be a core competency of their business. There is a, I think a press release from Porsche recently where they basically announced that, you know, you know, software has to be our core competency and open source as part of that story. Otherwise, you know, we're potentially not going to be able to, you know, innovate. And you're kind of seeing this trend happen in lots of different organizations out there. But, you know, I had a funny conversation with a large, let's call it even how to like aerospace company, right? Builds, let's call it large planes and other things. And they're like, yeah, we're going to be putting like, you know, Kubernetes on, you know, on airplanes. I'm like, great. And, you know, they're kind of staffing that up and hiring, you know, in-house, you know, talent to be able to, you know, to do that. And just lots of these companies that, you know, just a little bit late to that kind of digital, you know, transformation, you know, bringing software in-house game that are kind of, you know, moving here. Personally, I'm very excited to see how Kubernetes is going to perform on airplanes. Like, I am looking forward to this. Yeah, I just hope there's going to be, everything is going to be smooth and they have a very good feel of it. I think we're thinking too small. I won't see Kubernetes in space. Okay, I have good news about that. I was talking to folks from JPL, you know, Jet Propulsion Lab. Apparently they're all learning about what's containers and Kubernetes too. So Liz, your dream may come true. That is good. Linux went to Mars on, on kind of the little helicopter they had. So why not Kubernetes? Yes, we can. Of course, have big goals. And I think definitely that that's achievable with this community. I don't think there's anything we cannot achieve, honestly. Now, before we move to the next question, I would like to, again, remind all of our attendees to put your questions in the chat or raise your hand and you'll be able to ask it directly to our panel as well. So don't be shy. This is your prime time. Ask questions. Now, I would like to, of course, focus on this week, which is the KubeCon and CloudNativeCon week. And I would like to ask Priyanka, of course, everyone else as well. What is the theme of this KubeCon and maybe could you share some background details of why exactly this is the theme for this iteration? I'm so sorry, but my internet cut out for a hot second. And the question, sorry. The theme for this KubeCon and CloudNativeCon. And maybe you can share some insights why we chose this one specifically. Yes, absolutely. So the theme, you can see it right next to me. It's resilience realized. And the question of why, right? The PR team is always asking me, how do you come up with this stuff? And the answer is really, it's think about it. Think about the last year and a half, almost two years, right? All of that we've gone through. I think we were, the whole world was thrown topsy-turvy. And CloudNative became, first of all, we had to survive as a community, right? A lot of things that were normal for us that were usual for us meeting up in person, having small group events and the KubeCon's, all that went away, right? So we had to somehow find ways to take care of ourselves. Second, because of that really speed of light digitization that suddenly started happening with all the companies around the world, we had to take care of others too. We became the scaffolding of the pandemic era, really. And so all of this is going on. All of us are juggling children at home, not going to school, losing people who are, we are so close to have experiencing loss at a mass scale. And the reality is that we all fought through it, right? That showed our resilience. I think the pandemic era has really shown a light on how strong we are as a community. So that's where I got the word resilience from, right? Then it's like, what's resilience realized? Well, if you think about this event happening, the fact that it's existing at all is a realization or manifestation of our resilience, because I already shared with you all the challenges that we as a community have gone with and you probably feel it, and I don't even need to explain it to you. On the other side, just in terms of being able to execute on this event, right? First of all, it's the first hybrid one. So firsts are always tough. Second of all, we are really living right now in what I call, well, actually, it's not me, what the economist calls a shortage economy. And it's a world where there's shortage of labor, shortage of supplies, there's delays for everything. Everything is off right now. And the types of challenges that the events team that works with us to build these events out, every possible challenge that could come has come our way, right? And still, we were able to show up. There's so many people in person, there's all of you online, and it's happening. And that's our resilience realized. Amazing. Now, I cannot deny the last year has been quite challenging for all of us. And of course, we have more prominent presence in the cloud native community, which I think it's great, a great result of this as well. But in addition to the community, we had new emerging technologies as well. And this is another question I would like to ask our panel today. What do you think are the most promising cloud native technologies that will emerge in the next half a year or maybe a year? Any thoughts? Could start with this. I think some of the areas that we've talked about somewhat relate to the conversation a few minutes ago about the different verticals. So for example, use in telco and the requirements there around things like latency that are pretty specialist. I think also high performance computing, we're going to see some pretty specialist technology around that. We look at the sandbox projects, we're seeing lots of, I think, interesting run times, things like rust based run times is pretty interesting. And then, and that's very much sort of in the depths of how containers are actually running on the host. Completely the other end of the spectrum. I think we have a long way to go with the developer experience. There's lots of interesting work going on there, but getting it, you know, making it very easy for developers to build and deploy their apps in a very normal way without having to write lots of YAML. I think that's huge. And then finally, I can't answer this question without mentioning my current favorite technology, which is EBPF, which we're seeing not just Cillian, which I'm involved with, but several other projects like Falco and Pixie using EBPF because of the way we're able to hook into the Linux kernel and then use that to instrument all the apps that are running on a given host with one sort of set of instrumentation. So that's my kind of quick run around the technologies I'm excited about. Erin, Chris, Bianca, any thoughts on this one? I'm seeing a lot more maturity towards looking at the security lens in terms of, you know, end to end image signing as well. You know, there's obviously from an end user perspective, the radar that just came out in September, you know, was all around that. And it's still being very difficult maybe to use those and develop those at the same time. So what are we doing and leaning towards, you know, being secure by default out of the gate and making sure that we can develop on a platform that instills trust? So I'm excited to see also what is happening within the security arena. That's a great point. The supply chain security work has taken off in the last few months. Absolutely. Definitely one of our busier co-located events yesterday when I was touring through all the different ones. So there's definitely a lot of interest there, you know, outside of kind of the excellent, you know, points, you know, I think, you know, that there's an interest in stretching, you know, Kubernetes to support, you know, different types of workload types and so on. I think, you know, you're kind of seeing the same thing that happened with Linux a while ago where people were stuffing it in, you know, embedded devices, cars, you know, like every type of format. I think people are doing the same thing with Kubernetes and trying to figure out like, how does it work for my telco edge cases? How do I potentially run, you know, WebAssembly workloads? How to potentially, you know, I stuff database, like everyone's just kind of stretching this core technology to meet their specific, you know, end user needs. And I think we're going to see Kubernetes kind of evolve in a similar way that kind of Linux has done to kind of support these different end user specific needs. Yeah, and I think the reason this is happening is because the folks that have been involved with Cloud Native, the folks that have been running the Kubernetes clusters, they have this baseline of knowledge that they're being able to verticalize now. And so it's the same folks with an expansion of like, you know, our ranks, but it's like Cloud Native is becoming like the baseline understanding that you need to have. And then you kind of go verticalize and figure out Kubernetes on the edge, figure out the wasm situation, figure out what to do with security. So I think there are offshoots of Cloud Native developing and the sub communities are getting more like specialized. I couldn't agree. I think like Kupcon is a great way for us to determine what are going to be next on the horizon as well when it comes to the community steps and the technology steps as well. And this brings me to the next question. I am trying to very particularly get a sneak peek into some of the keynotes. Just briefly, as much as we can share. Now, this one is for Liz and Erin, because in the past, we had the TUCs having their predictions around the emerging technologies and methodologies within the landscape. And last Kupcon, we had Justin Cormag actually giving an insight of over 80 sandbox, CNCF sandbox projects, which was obviously a very, very rich keynote in information. Now, I'm trying to see maybe some details or maybe some insights into the keynote that the TUCs will give tomorrow or in the next couple of days. Let's put it this way. Yes. So Cornelia is going to be handling that for us because she's able to be there in person, which is awesome. And she is focusing on the role of those technical advisory groups that we discussed earlier and really how they've already helped scale the activity to do some really good work in some specific areas like different white papers. They've helped us with assessing projects. There's tons of work they've been doing. So really in that keynote, she's going to be shining a spotlight on those different activities. And to add to that, it was really important for us as a TUC from the beginning to now to be able to actually scale and understand the technologies deeply to have the tags as part of our success story, where we have people who are entrenched in the details and understand what users need, what restrictions there are, what kind of tech still needs to be developed, and they're able to talk with the wider community that's concerned with that. There's many tags. There's networking, security, SIG apps. It defines really all these different cloud native pillars and then has people within those that can discuss that have been involved or getting involved in the community from vendors to end users to researchers even. So it's a very diverse and rich community. And I think being able to highlight that and how much they help propel the technologies forward and really educate us as a TUC, where we cannot possibly go through 80 efficiently individually. So they help us scale out and provide that fairness that is deserved to people in the community to bring those projects forward. Great. I'm definitely looking forward for the TUC keynote. I know Priyanka is just obviously going to open the stage tomorrow. So maybe you cannot share so much, but Priyanka made pretty sure an overview of your keynote or maybe the special message that you'd like to share or follow us. Well, let's see. What can I share? No, I'll tell you this, that I think my keynote is a celebration of our community, of our resilience being realized. And I talk about how that's happened because of the power of us, the emphasis being on the word us. And I'll talk about who is us. Has that changed? What does that mean that that has changed? How do we uphold the awesomeness that we've experienced? The internet connection. So many companies are now end users, like the growing and increasing in size. Oh, sorry, did I cut out for a second? Just for a second. Just for a second. Oh, sorry. But it's fine. Okay. But yeah, so basically it all comes back to more and more companies are using Cloud Native, so much growth in our numbers. How do we retain the beauty and the ethos of our environment? How do we enable all kinds of people? And that will be the power of us. So you'll hear more tomorrow. Awesome. Thank you very much for sharing all of this with us. Of course, I hope everyone here is looking forward for the key notes in the next couple of days. And of course, the sessions. Now, so far we've touched upon what in future end users we have on the horizon, what kind of technologies are emerging? Some of the sessions that the attendee should attend as well or tuning. The last questions I have, the last question I have for the panel is how can end users get involved and contribute to the community now? What would be your advice to these end user organizations? You know, you all are going out there utilizing Cloud Native and doing all the big stuff. I think getting involved with fellow like-minded folks is the move, right? It's the best way to collaboratively learn and move faster, right? Now, along the way, there are challenges because many organizations, many verticals still have a different view in terms of how much they want to open up, how much they want to be, how much they're able to really like communicate in a larger setting. And I think this is where we could use the help of the existing end user ecosystem and community. It's like, spread the word, tell people how useful this is for you. I was in a breakout session and one of the folks, David over there, he was just saying how essential the biweekly developer experience meetings are for him and how much value he gets out of them. I want to really like beat that drum because people need to hear about it and not just developers, executives need to hear about it because that's when they start saying, oh, okay, I should really be enabling my developers to go here, my DevOps professionals to be part of this ecosystem. So I think for us, I am 100% confident that the end user ecosystem community and the vendor community, all of Cloud Native benefits a lot from being together, from increasing their ranks. It's a matter of getting the word out there so that each and every developer can join. I think I would add that we bucket people into end users or vendors, but actually we're seeing a lot increase in contributions from end users, whether that's code contributions, in some cases entire projects like backstage from Spotify, whether it's getting involved in these tags or user groups or any one of the many different ways that we come together as a community, anybody can get involved in these. And if you and your organization can devote some, I genuinely believe that we're seeing this from end users. People are getting more out because they're putting more in. And I think I would just encourage people to spend a bit of time working with the community to help us achieve these kind of common goals. And I think one of the unique things about the end user community, which really embodies open source as well as the level of transparency and candidness that people are able to have in some of these discussions, they're able to bring their struggles and use the community is a way to foster solutions and success and or at least you know, collectively say it's not working for us either, it's not just you. So I mean, I think it's really a great opportunity for people to come together and help solve a diverse set of problems that maybe even as engineers or even vendors, we didn't understand were there. So I think, you know, having that be a sometimes a smaller set of people and very specific discussions helps lead even to innovation new projects or solutions that go back to the vendors to help solve those problems. Chris, did you increase the final remarks? Yeah, no, I mean, I think, I think everyone has said great things. I think, you know, one simple thing is, you know, you know, make time in your organizations for your folks potentially kind of show up, you know, to these meetings and, you know, even if they can necessarily share, you know, details and so on. But, you know, being there, making time for recording any, you know, information that you find, sending it back and eventually kind of working through, you know, your organization in a way where you could actually make time for open source, you know, contribution, it doesn't have to be code, it could be simply ideas and so on. And you'll find that a lot of time people in other organizations are, you know, completely free to kind of share information with you, you know, how they deploy, you know, a blob store within their respective company and so on. Everyone's just fairly kind of, you know, helpful. But the first step is truly just like showing up and kind of making the time and kind of meeting people. We have a lot of projects and meetings in the CNCF arena and, you know, we have folks like, you know, Katie and other CNCF staff members that are more than willing to kind of help you and kind of guide you through your cloud native journey. If I may just chime in one last thing, to what Chris has been saying, you know, about just also that the end users are now standing up and being like, being a stronger voice in the vendor ecosystem, right? They are, as a collective, your power is more. You know, the power of us increases the larger the number we are. And so to that end, I think the executives, the leadership in the companies need to become aware of the strategic advantage in addition to developer happiness, developer productivity that comes from being part of an ecosystem line, like the end user ecosystem, because it just makes them get the best possible results for the technologies they are ultimately going to consume. And I think that's something that we need to get the word out there and ensure that they all hear and absorb. Amazing. Personally, I am very excited to see how the end users will shape the future of the cloud native and contribute that to the community. And I'd like to remind everyone, if you'd like to learn more about the CNCF end user community, go to cncf.io for slash end user. We will find insights into how can join the community and shape your end user story as well. And I would like to take the last couple of moments and thank all of our panelists that joined us today and all of our attendees as well. Thank you very much for being here and have an extraordinary keep calm and cloud native current. Thank you, Katie. Thank you, everybody. This was awesome. See you on the sessions.