 This is the OGM weekly check-in call for Thursday, November 10th, 2022 just after the U.S. midterm elections, which were not a red wave as had been forecast awfully and turned out to be something much milder and more interesting. Stephen Colbert called it a pink trickle. The pink trickle. Yeah, yeah. It sounds like a kind of disease actually. There were other formulations that I won't go into. I was thinking more sex toy, but still. Women have called it spotting, like. That's what I wasn't going to say to you. So I thought maybe a woman needed to say. I think that's a beautiful way to break into this group. So our normal habit on alternate Thursdays is to just go, I look at my little zoom layout, try to remember who didn't get to go the week before and start with them. And then just go around and ask people to check in on what's happening in their lives that is a sort of OGM me open global mindy, which is about creating a shared memory for humans. I'm in a hotel near Tahoe. I hesitated to say its name because it's still called the Squaw Creek resort, even though the word squaw is has been sort of deprecated from the language and the valley has been renamed and the resort is now called pinnacle lodge, I think. Yeah, but the names on everything's still here here because this week is the Linux foundations membership summit, which means it's the sponsors of Linux foundation who are here. And I learned what an Ospo is it's an open source project office or program office rather. These large corporations like Amazon and very big companies you would all recognize have offices that are the holding sponsors for open source within and across their enterprises. And they're here in lots of interesting ways listening to talks and talking to each other. There's all sorts of good hallway banter. And I'm learning and absorbing a whole bunch about about how this world works and I'm here because on Tuesday, April gave a speech about flux mindset and change and all that she normally they don't have non technical non on topic speakers at all. And she was sort of the exception. This meeting around and it worked really well. It's been it's been really fun. And then Brian bill and or for really old friend. Sorry, a friend from longer ago he is not that old is here and is sort of the part of the heart of the Linux foundation and crew. And he runs something called open SSF, which is one of the major issues here is open software secure open software chain supply chain security. There's a lot of words but basically how does the industry guarantee or at least improve the vulnerabilities across open source in all this different ways and it's really really interesting because there's a huge joint vested interest in getting security and if you look at any of the data breaches or malware ransomware episodes or other kinds of things that have happened over the last couple years. Eric has the perfect solution in the chat, just let Microsoft, not Microsoft scan all your code. So, so Eric, I love that because I used to be a technology industry turns analyst and I was always boggle it boggle me for years that if you bought yourself a PC with Microsoft windows or MS does on it. You sort of couldn't really run it unless you bought software from three other vendors and installed it you needed memory management, networking, and security, you needed some kind of software antivirus right. But once you did that, you didn't actually sort of have a functioning PC unless you were going to do the dumbest possible things. And I couldn't understand how anybody could ship a computer that did that sorry that was, and I think what they were doing was seating a marketplace for third party vendors and it was good for those other companies, which got big but it always just boggled me that you couldn't just turn the thing on and start working. Did anybody else feel that dream that are. But that's because I like overly complicated things. Um, you know students and in his essay from a long ago in the beginning with the command line talks about the difference between open source software Linux and closed source software like Microsoft Microsoft has to pretend that everything works really well. So they'll never admit that it's buggy is as hell. Linux on the other hand it's like, dude, if you want to fix something that would be great so they keep a bit list of bugs and they'll tell you everything about how it's bad so. It's kind of the same thing Microsoft. It was always hard for Microsoft to like build enough parts of itself to make it whole. I love there was a time years ago where Steve Palmer gave a speech. He said I have figured out Linux or open source I remember when he was targeting. And he was like we looked and saw who contributes to the to the code base and it turns out there are 10s of 1000s of people who did nothing. They came in they downloaded the software they did nothing and it's just this core bit of contributors who did all the changes to the code or whatever. And he's describing the mechanism that's like a mortal threat to Microsoft and complete ignorance of how it works and why it would work. And I was just boggle that he could be so, so checked out on what was like like how that might be a good thing how that dynamic might work. That's crazy top. Balmer also thought the iPhone was a stupid idea. They also did the monkey dance. There is the monkey. I sort of appreciate I mean he comes out on stage and works up a sweat, loving developers and I got to say, you know, Balmer basically blackmailing developers is what made Microsoft a monopolist and got them an antitrust case so that kind of work. I don't like Balmer even less than I like Gates. I was in a focus group years ago that turned out to be about open source. So like Muslim 30 years ago or something like that and it was really striking that people were concerned about security and eight out of nine people said they would much more trust open source to Microsoft back early. I ran, we ran the arts a piece on CPM old copy pro venerable copy pro boxes and then when the IBM PC came out we shifted to that for I think about six months and then Mac came out and we shifted to that and never look back. And, you know, directly experienced the cost the total cost of operation in the face of much higher hardware it was like, you know, night and day. And that's where I've lived ever since except for my time at city of Palo Alto where I had to go windows because that's what everybody was running on. And it was probably the most awful tech experience of my life. Not only the personal adjustment everything having to be backwards and upside down, but the productivity loss was stunning. And even more stunning was all the crap that people took for granted as this is normal for computers. Having seen anything else. Yeah, thanks Gil, two slides that were memorable in the last couple days, and then I'll go to Pete and one of them sort of picks up what Pete put in the chat. One slide was and one part of a presenter's talk was basically, hey, I've got this cool open source application and it just requires you to go install this module and this module and this module and this module and this module. And you're not exactly sure that all those modules are clean. There's a chain of dependencies and if you got something wrong, there might be a weakness in there. And that's just kind of how a lot of open source projects work because everybody's not writing everything there they're sort of including a lot of code from other places. And then the other one was the speaker who said hey, the software industry seems to be blaming the victim here on computer security, we're asking people who really have no idea what the vulnerabilities are to do a bunch of things that are sometimes quite arcane. And out of their, you know, out of their purview or understanding, and then we blame them for not having patched the whatever when something breaks and so they were, they were trying to do this concept of security by default like how do you how do you build the system so there's just secure as you as you run out the door. And then my apologies for this long geeky digression and I think I'm checking in which is unusual at the start of the call, and we'll get back to our check and when Pete's done. Since we hit Balmer's clueless microsoft cluelessness via Balmer of open source. I wanted to maybe go back to a small story I had Jerry about composability and interoperability. I apologize again to can kind of keep going on the on the geek thing but it's, it's an interesting concept and a really useful concept that that kind of comes from kind of comes from software but you can also think of it like Legos. So one of the cool things about software is people figured out that you could build a purpose built thing, like, you know, custom carve a wood thing that fit a purpose, or you could start to make building blocks like Legos. And that was called composability. And then, you know, once you've got one brick built. And in this, in this metaphor the bricks aren't all the same they do different things that's not like just regular Legos it's the fancy Legos. Once you've built one piece that does something really well, then you can use it in another thing with very little customization so that composability is a big part of software productivity and and architecture and things like that. So, Jerry and I kind of realized in a call earlier this week that there's another thing called interoperability. If, if I wanted, you know, I want my, I want my mailing program to work with my text editing program and I wanted to work with my, my word processing program and my mail merge program and things like that. So that's, if you think about it that kind of thing where this piece of software plugs into a bunch of other pieces of software other systems. That's in a way of composability so Jerry asked a really interesting question what's the difference between interoperability and composability. So, it's an easy answer it turns out composability is when you're inside a system and that interoperability is when your intra system you're composing systems. So then Jerry made a really quick flash he's like okay so. So, if you draw the system circle in a bigger place, you've got intra composability, rather than interoperability you've just turned interoperability into composability. So, that, that redrawing where the system goes thing led me to an interesting story I know about Microsoft right now. Microsoft, at this point is not at all clueless about open source, and it looks like they have figured out a way whether intentionally or just stochastic way, they figured out a way to enclose open source while still playing by all the open source rules. So that the trick here is that a reasonably sized open source system is composed of lots of little smaller pieces. So, and then an open source tool set is also kind of the same it's lots of little pieces. So, if you play the game such that for each piece you're making sure that you do open source stuff, you follow the rules of open source, and Microsoft has been doing this they've been releasing these really good development tools under open source. And everyone goes well should we be using Microsoft thing and it's like, dude they followed all the rules it's open source, we can take this we can do different stuff with it, it's wonderful. Microsoft has become a good player in the open source environment. It turns out that each tool is open source but when you compose them together into a tool suite that you want to be using in your development environment. Microsoft can do a thing where they in one sense you compose a bunch of things together you've got a system that's all open source. They, they kind of do a trick where, if you want to use, you know, my, my, our code editor in certain ways if you wanted to plug in with certain things. You have to actually move to a different licensing model. So you get hooked by using an open source tool, and then, and then the rules change when you want to compose with other closed source tools. So, in a way what's happened is Microsoft has said, sure, let's draw a circle around this composability and we'll call that open source. And we're going to draw another, another thing that's similar but different. And if you want to use one of our, our important tools, all of a sudden the open source thing that you're using has switched from being part of an open source composition to a enterprise closed source paywall thing. So, and this is, this seems like it could be a really big deal because it's not just small tools that Microsoft is kind of either creating or buying. It's really big tools. So GitHub is has been an oasis for, for open source projects for many, many years it's a commercial company but the way they set up the company the founders set up the company so that it activated the potential of open source in a really way. Microsoft up and bought it recently. So now they can kind of keep shifting what is open source and continue to keep components open source while they're doing an inclusion move by this composition thing over, you know, large swaths of it. So, and it's hard to see because for decades, we've kind of thought, you know, all open source developers have a this litmus test. Is this really open source that they use the right kind of license I can't use it unless we still reflexively apply those tests, but very few people are looking that at that large composition thing that Microsoft is doing that's changing open source and enclosing it. Thanks very much. Anyone else with final geeky, geeky thoughts on the geeky questions which are like really fascinating that was that's those have been great conversations this week. Go ahead, Doug. You're muted. There. Yeah, you know, out of the technology realm but patterns. So I'm in the middle of Southwest Michigan farm country. So a farmer today and not buy a tractor and work on it. And if that tractor. If there's an agenda john dear has that tractor can be effectively immobilized and the farmer can't do anything about it. If a farmer is looking to buy seed, and he's got the big boys as supplier contractually locked in and all the rest and right next door is another farmer who's organic who's NGO who's like, you know, looking to do something about it. But you know, seeds grow plants that are exposed to wind that carry other seeds, and all of a sudden, the corporate proprietary patented seeds are now showing up on that farmer's land and he's subject to, to effectively unlicensed seeds of seeds that he never bought or asked for but that happened to be showing up in his. And it's sort of the same territory in terms of boundaries of proprietary and ownership projection control power authority, right, growing, expanding, you know, and on a global basis, everybody's aware of the monopolization like that sort of the agenda, which is all crops everywhere are proprietary from proprietary seed. So it's, it's a it's sort of a really interesting. I don't know whether it's an inflection point or turning point because I'm not sure there's any way of stopping it. Like you tip that line you just described Pete, and all of a sudden you just fell into okay, everything I've got I got to pay it. And there's no alternatives turned to because they're buying where all the alternatives are housed. And they're presumably going to be infected with the same triggers and implants. Um, Doug, thank you I've got a thought in my brain called the hidden war on small farms which covers the topics that you're talking about and sort of tries to dive into them in some way, let's let me just go Carl and gill on the same question. Yeah. I'm just triggering a lot of things going back to 2003 we had a big government conference there was a guy George Thomas and fortunately he passed from cancer at the age of 53 but he was just, he came up with the he was our enterprise architect and it just moved over to HHS to be the bear enterprise architect, so he, he would have been in, he would have been involved in the health care dot gov thing we would have had. We wouldn't have had that fiasco sidetrack but he came up with this open sort of the so Sarah. And then that egov conference to there, there was a lot of interesting things going on there some things, so I wouldn't want to have recorded. So, I have to talk about it. Thanks Carl. Yeah, just real quick to what Doug said about my month and the companies are effectively doing this in fact Monsanto sued farmers for theft of intellectual property that resulted from the drift of my of Monsanto genetic material on farmers farms I don't know what happened with that can you may know since you've been tracking that. I always thought the farmer should have been suing Monsanto for criminal trespass, because they could no longer sell their crops organic because Microsoft Monsanto, I keep conflating Monsanto and Microsoft I wonder why that is their stuff kept invading their their genomes, which recalls and Jerry I hope to have this in your brain Robert van den Bosch former emeritus professor at Cal entomologists I think used to talk about the right to biochemical privacy. And this is what, which I think is still a pending area in the law for someone to say, you know, you have the right to operate your company the way you do within regulations but you don't have the right to put your chemistry in my body without my permission. It's trespass. And I'm still waiting for some lawyers to take that one on a big way. Yeah, exactly. So, Monsanto Canada versus Schmeisser is one of the cases involved there. And I do have van and Bosch in my brain but only about the pesticide treadmill and the pesticide mafia. Yeah, basically which is some of his work. Yeah look for biochemical privacy suit. Cool, thank you. Oh good and Pete already put Monsanto versus Schmeisser in the chat. Just noticed it. Do you want to come back in or do you want to lower your hand. Okay. Yeah, well, I'll post something later too but I've my social networking project I'm got one that's it's happening hours for the holidays, and I'll be looking to do some things the last two weeks of the year. Cool, thank you. And when you check in that's probably a good thing to go to. Let me see who I have in the queue which I've lost. Ken Doug Carmichael to Laura. Hello everybody. First of all, fucking news just really pisses me off with all their. Oh, the Republicans had this red wave and if people hadn't been inundated with that for the last couple months I wonder if the outcome of the elections might have been quite different. But that said, I'm extremely happy with what went down. Yes, it's very dicey in terms of who's going to win control of the House and Senate but there were so many state elections elections where they flipped the, they flipped the chambers in Michigan. You know, big Gil sent out a thing yesterday from our mutual friend listing all these amazing things that happened in this election so a lot to celebrate a lot to be grateful for coming up on Thanksgiving I know that on Thanksgiving I am going to be saying thank you to all the people who got out there and did their hard work to make the selection not the slaughter we were expecting. I'm really grateful about that. It's amazing how these conversations drift from, you know, open source software to Monsanto to open seeds and then whatnot. One of the things I really appreciate about about this, this space is the variety of what goes on here. What am I doing that's OGM me the city, the county of Marin spent 175,000 dollars on an economic values strategic plan. And it has five areas of recommendation five flagship initiatives, and the language is the wimpiest stuff you've ever seen like seek to make more economic opportunities available to marginalized communities. And how does that mean. I mean that's just, I can't believe that they spent all this money to have somebody say, these really mushy goals, you know, no direct action so I'm working with someone Gil knows Christy on us who runs venture strategies are co working space downtown on combining two of the initiatives into something really practical. Rin County is is really trying to electrify so we said well what if we were to tackle electrifying all of the commercial buildings anything more than 10,000 square feet and any apartment building that had more than 10 units. So would we pull together vendors and community players and property managers and property owners to create a kind of a consortium where, you know, sort of a diamond certified thing of, if you come to this consortium, they will take you from start to finish handle and make sure you get you know the best service and the lowest prices. So that's what's trying to put this together. There are jurisdictions doing that time or to stop being with. So we're trying to put together a little project to get this off the ground sometime in q1 or q2 of 2024. That's the most og and og me thing I'm actually working on, other than that continuing to read. And just did this big project of cataloging all these books I read and I'm now up to almost 600 which catapulted my mind and I, as I was doing it I thought I'll put a column in for decade read and I didn't realize when I did that but once I sorted by decade read I saw all these patterns and this is what I was reading as a kid as a teenager is 20 something 30 something. And I get fixated on something like I, I want to know something I'll just go off and read 10 books about it, you know. So it's, it's really interesting to see how that panned out and just it was a fun little project kept me busy for a couple days. Now I need something else. So anyway, that's me. Good to see you all. I hope you're doing well. Thanks, Kim. Let's go. Doug Carmichael to Laura Carl. So three things on my mind and I'm going to start with Ken's view about this project and Marin. If I understand it properly, it's impossible to do that project without admitting a lot of CO2 in one way or another. Continually puzzled as to why we don't don't draw logical conclusions from facts like that. Second thing on my mind. Watching the returns on the elections. I became really bored and puzzled by the fact that the only thing that was mentioned basically was numbers. Is this person have any post votes is that person have no content about any of their positions. It just seemed like numerical fetishism, all the way. And of course the other numerical line was the number of dollars spent in a campaign. That basically was the whole discussion. And we're hanging there on pins and needles, looking at how exciting this is when we know that by tomorrow we're just going to have the facts, and all this is totally wasted energy. So I thought what if we had a week of voting week, during which the commentators would talk about what is on the minds and the positions of the various people running. All people could go vote whenever they want, and the results are announced new numerical results, only at the end of the last day of the voting week. So the whole discussion would be about things to do, what needs to be done how people are approaching. Next thing on my mind is watching cop 27. There's no question, but what the urgency has really increased from cop 26, the language is more visceral. It's more frightened. It's more urgent. But with all of the talk and the word for the cop 27 this year is implementation, but nobody talks about implementation, because nobody knows how to do it. So we're stuck. So at least made to the thought, which I wouldn't do in most places, but I think this is a safe environment to do it. And that is, since we're not going to be able to do much about climate change, temperature is going to rise. The question has to be on our minds, how do we die and when. So I'll stop with that. I wrote a deep adaptation, but that's a bit more, more, more, a bit darker. How do we die and when I got to say, I don't remember Vinay Gupta many years ago wrote a piece of cults, we there are six ways to die. Which, which I don't know why somebody hadn't written it before but basically you start to death old age disease murder and I don't remember what the other ones were. And it was a pretty good list. It was like, oh, okay, that seems like, like a list. Do you want to say a little bit more about that. Well, no, I'm going to just stop. Well, maybe I'll say one more thing and that is I've been reading a history of watching everybody should watch the Yale lectures by Tim Snyder on the history of Ukraine. He's running the course online and live and the record is you can go on later, and they are really extraordinary because the Ukraine falls apart and comes together and falls apart in ways that are not unlike our current world situation. And it's worth reading. And what you get is of course things like the starvation of 10 million people. The whole scale is so different than what we're used to. But I think a factor of modern life is that the scale of things is hidden from us. Thanks. Let's go to Lara curl Eric. And welcome to la. Thank you. Thank you for, for your question of how do we die. A couple of months ago, I had the insight that I wanted to start a business on helping people die with dignity, or a good death, because ultimately we're all going to do that. And how. And in our society, certainly anything that ripples out from the UK. We, we don't really want to talk about anything uncomfortable so going right into that story, and how to have a good death, I think would be a really wonderful courageous move to get people to show up and learn how to be authentic with it. However, that wasn't what I was going to talk about today but I love that you ended your piece with that. And it gave me the opportunity to play with that idea. I'll be working on a project with someone who comes out of Europe and human resources, and there are many books written on narcissism in terms of a relationship between people. But in the HR departments of Europe, they are seeing the management style of narcissism. And they're able to plot the patterns of that. And as I sat and listened to your stories this morning about technology, and was a little overwhelmed because that's not my field. I was thinking, there are certainly patterns that are visible here that we should be addressing, because the narcissist basically I robotics to virtually every sector of the economy. Sorry, that was John's accidental video playing I just muted him. Hi john. There are certainly patterns where there is absolutely no relational attunement to the other. The other completely ignored, and the push goes forward, serving the narcissist needs through the lies and disinformation. And so that they continue to gather more and more power, whether that's financial, or political influence, or just influence within the area that they are so I think it's really important that we start looking at those patterns. And we start giving institutions tools to deal with this because whenever you start to address that dysfunction in an institution people just back off because they have the safety of not being responsible for that piece. And that's how we're losing, you know, how we're getting this disparity of power on so many levels, where, you know, we used to send them the aggressive masculine off to war because the other was the problem and they would all gang up and and try to figure out where is within now. And we're, we seem incapable of addressing attack from inside, and I don't know if it's because we choose to be numb, because we don't actually want to say this is what the problem is. Or if we're just happy letting it be somebody else's problem but we've let it be somebody else's problem for so long is all of our problem now. So I will sign off with that. Thank you to like, can you say a little bit more about narcissism kind of in the way you intend it in here like there's there's for me that just you would just opened up like an onion of different kinds of topics and ideas and I want to I want to listen more with more care to where you're aiming what you were saying. Okay, and I do want to be careful about using that term because that term can be so overused so we may want to actually use a more psychologically accurate term which is psychopathy, because it includes more aspects of it, and it is these people. There are narcissists who actually have some wisdom of empathy, and, and they will use their skills of empathy against others intentionally. Then there are the narcissist or the psych, psychotic. Who simply have no somatic knowledge and it's, they are so disembodied that they were operationally mind pushing forward to gain their agenda. And what they're actually doing is they're working actively at that so that their soma their body wisdom is not activated because it can't be activated because they're so disassociated and so in the intellectual areas. And so inside them their soma and their intellect are constantly in conflict at their soma has to fight. And they're unconscious that the body has to fight and the brain is the coping mechanism of doing that. And so there is no room for other in that. And so, you know, unfortunately in capitalism. The more money and power and control that you can have over your domain, the more likely this behavior occurs whether it's john dear trying to, you know, control every aspect of what a farmer does with their tractor, or whether it's with their seeds, or Bill Gates, you know, with Microsoft, all of these pieces are silos of power and, and I guess the other, the other reason I came on today is I've been following your thread on Bitcoin. I'm looking at what's happening there. And I'm looking at the time frame between World War One and World War Two, how different industries, mostly in the US, but certainly globally, really spiked and how the wealth was created in these silos. And yet if we go back into history now, those industries simply don't exist anymore they're just gone, they fell. And so, I've, I've had a curiosity, it may seem a bit abstract and I'm going all over. I've had a real curiosity what it might have felt like to live in London when the Germans, during the Blitz, and waking up in the morning and walking to the building next door that was bombed out but you were asleep and you actually survived. And I feel like there's a lot of that going on in our economic system and whether it's Bitcoin gone, or what, you know, whatever, I feel like there are pieces being set up to be taken out of our system. And then it will be curious how our system recovers. So that's me coming from a non American perspective like I get this conversation is mostly American centric, but I'm looking more at a global perspective the European economy. Yes, we did talk about the Ukraine, but, but what pieces of the world are going to be part of this recovery as pieces of the American economy simply disappear simply fail. I talk sometimes about the sort of Damocles hanging over workers where automation or, or outsourcing or whatever it's just going to wipe people out and they're not going to have much recourse afterward and they're all. There's no sense in most places I think this is just conjecture or the feeling I have there's no sense of collaboration with management to try to use automation to get productivity to keep everybody employed and make the thing work better. There's a sense of oh my gosh, not so much randomly but I could be you know me and my livelihood we could be wiped out at any moment randomly. So outside of that there's this random thing of nature seems to be striking more and more viciously. And then other sorts of things are happening with random school shootings or mall attacks or other kinds of violence that are happening randomly so it feels like we're living in a stochastically dangerous world, at least in our heads. So a lot of people will say that gosh it's safer now that it was when the Huns wouldn't come over the hill and wipe out your whole village. And there's a bunch of people who say hey look things are getting better point to sort of long term stats. But boy it feels just stochastically kind of crazy. And then if you mix that back in with the malignant narcissists that you were talking about who are sort of sometimes in charge of the controls in there. It's a little scary. Anyone else with thoughts on this. If not let's go Carl Eric Doug be funny with that last thing because well one of the things that being working at the General Services Administration I'm right at, we really are at the center of so much. Things but like I posted a link to Sean Armstrong he actually presented back in August we have a building sustainability network and you definitely need to check that out. Doug Carmichael because he's talking about decarbonization and slides every like the slide like six really core strategic leverage points and then like two of them are highlighted like these are the two most. I mean this guy is just laser. I mean he's really impressive redwood energy. And then my master's program at George Mason we have these learning community days and in August there was a they'd actually brought in a professor Donna Hicks and she actually you'll have to check that out in particular. Tilara Tilara. Yeah, because she she was it's all about conflict resolution but it was like the dignity was really a dignity violating dignity was what they kind of came up with as the term and stuff and she she worked with and to to on stuff to so definitely an amazing speaker and I posted a link to her book there but yeah they said that's one of the things that really keeps that just how interconnected this group is with. I can do the similar type thing so the idea I mentioned before is I have ideas for happening hours for the holidays and it's basically that we can. I've got a space club. I don't know you're probably familiar with it the wonder dot me platform. It's it's they got the user interface piece of it right I mean it's just like very fluid you can drag you can move in and out of circles which opens up, which opens up like a room and they've actually just matured into more of a viable product they're really looking to to enable remote remote teams and things. This is the virtual event platform at least that's what it was pitched as right. Yeah, and so I'm looking to use that for my happening hours for the holidays so you don't have to plan your holiday party just come join this group and we can all have a holiday party together. It's kind of the concept that I have, but I've had some things but yeah as I said it's, I posted a couple weeks ago but I use a product called one sub, which is like my, my free time manager thing so well, what I wanted to do is get people to identify three times that would work for them during that last two weeks of the year, and then I can use that to seed some good for some doodle poles and stuff so that's my project that shall know what to get that going here. Thanks Carl and you'll send that to the Google to the GM Google group. Yeah, cool. Yeah, I mean we got, we got major. Well, it's amazing that we can still have hope today after all the, all the stuff that's been going on. So, thanks for non recording. Thanks Carl did Pete find the right URL one sub.io. And in the meantime, let's go Eric, Doug B. Gill. Everybody. The topic of death was brought up earlier and I recently had a close friend who passed away, and I've been going through a grieving process in my own way. So, it's a good question like how do people. How should people die. He suffered liver failure, and he for the, like the two months, he depended on everybody to help him out in the hospital and in the rehab and that's a strain on family and friends and then just getting his family to be contacted was a challenge. Yeah, I mean, we're only here, like Shakespeare says our little time on the stage. And it questions like what are we doing with our lives. So it could take all kinds of ways but in the end, he was in a coma for over a day, and I visited him at that time and I saw what had become of this marvelous mind. And I played music for him. And so I had that experience so yeah just finding the ways to help people move on is important. There are people who specialize in that and yeah just putting that out there. So. And it's something like the possessions he had a whole house full of stuff. And I have four bankers boxes of stuff from him now it's sheet music books, CDs tapes, and he made real to real recordings of his music to which I have to figure out how to get digitize somehow. So that's a 75 year life in four banker boxes, my piece of it. So he's still got stuff to teach me as I look through those books listen to his music and stuff. I'm posting a link of an exhibit I did this past weekend at a computer museum that has a lot of vintage technology so one of the items from him is being donated to that computer museum it's a 1985 laptop, which looks like a lunchbox. I've never heard of. Very cool. Yeah, Zenith lunchbox laptop is really cool. Yeah, so. Yeah, just where do we go from here. I mean always look forward and one day at a time, just figuring out where I'm going now. Thanks. Yeah, thank you Eric. Doug, please. Yeah, I hope it was clear when I brought up the issue of death that I didn't mean natural death, but death accelerated by climate change, whether it's making spaces unlivable migration wars, and all the other ways. And I think it's sort of on our minds, and we might as well talk about it. Like the opening scenes of ministry for the future. Absolutely. And nobody's jumping into that gap so I'll go back to the to the queue for a moment. It reminds me classes in here today but he says pretty clearly and he should know that we're going to have crop failures soon like next year. So, along with, you know, migration and you know it's not going to be comfortable where you live. It may get to you can't eat and you can't drink, and your kids can't eat and your kids can't drink. What bad way to die. And humans are very adaptable and we work our way through a lot of stuff so I'm wondering what sorts of adaptations will let us skirt some of those disasters and what sorts of adaptations are going to fail all together. And some of us skirt some of those disasters and people some people will afford their way out of it, which is sort of coming and and despite what I think on Doug C maybe said about the urgency that we're hearing from cop 27 is being really different from the urgency of cop 26. It's still nowhere near grappling with what you guys just said. Agreed. I have a great Bart Gil, Michael. So, being devoted to feeding the white wolf. I have been gathering finding members of my tribe that are devoted to how humans can do humans better. I've been creating and and I found just this awesome thing called Winfinity which I think some of you have crossed paths with but it was new for me. And connected with the founder of it who's been at it 20 years and is finally seeing momentum and traction she can't account for but she appreciates. And and so I'm in spaces and interactions and collaborations with people that are really focused on the nature and the quality of communication and connection and collaboration experientially by in between people coming together. And, and doing that without inviting any of the old paradigm stuff to the party, in terms of imposing on it power control authority governance structures. You know rules regulations frameworks that may or may not be required or needed for what's being created together. Then this morning. I rolled into a workshop. An hour long workshop with a group that formed where the magic word for them or lightning right for them was ecosystem. And, but it's a, it's a, it's a was a really strange invocation because it was. They referred to it as an innovation ecosystem that they basically took the word and all that it connotes and denatured it like completely stripped it of the concept of living things and interrelationships. And so it's a shiny term boxed up in a traditional old paradigm. Business corporate, you know, scrummy kind of context. And it's a noun. And so I rolled into this workshop, and it was this frenzy a frenzied. What's the application with all the post-its, and you can you can have an unlimited canvas and mirror mirror mirror. Yeah, so it was in mirror and it was a frenetic. There was no real space or time for thinking in the way I've gotten acclimated to being indulged to have like lots of room and space to think while doing together. This driven through a process in the map a whole bunch of preset post-its and you know, sort of a hamster trail to get to these punchline, you know, ideas brainstormed out of this. This rapids like driving through this process. And that it was almost a culture shock at this point because it'd been so long since I've been anywhere here any of that. And that's, and that's the norm. But that's where most people are living in most large companies and organizations and out there. And the thing the 3000 pound thing that leaped out at me is like, maybe it's just like slowing down. Maybe it's just creating, you know, circuit breaker stops. And giving people an experience of out of that, like undesignated, uncontextualized, unframed, just like here, you know, come here and step out of that. And see whether you can feel your feet like literally that's sort of what came to mind like can you reconnect with who you are what you're feeling, what's going on for you in a space in a moment. Where you're driving your own ship and you're fully conscious and aware of a way and feel safe enough to do that. And that I'm complete. Thanks, Doug, and I'll just ask, what's your favorite path for reconnecting. There are many. There's walking in nature or sitting on the earth, there's breathing, there's a bunch of other ways one could reconnect there's breaking bread with people and remembering that we're all human. Do you have favorite paths. I guess the top of the list for me because I also, I sort of see two worlds there's the, there's the individual and and not to be confused to Lara but there's the individual narcissistic version, like me getting in touch with me and nature and that's a solo endeavor, but I'm really drawn and attached to that with others while doing like a fully integrated experience of co creating with others. And, but in a space that's really safe, and that's not driven, and that's not, you know, run by the matrix, you know, it's run by the people in it. Let me push just for a second on the word safe. Only in part because sometimes the places where I've been most creative or felt the most juice and co creative energy haven't always felt completely safe because there was a little sense of danger or pressure put on the group to do something now. And, and there are other settings in which there was a calm created that was incredibly safe and generative as well. But, but I feared that in our quest for safety we have to be sort of nuanced because there's a form of psychological safety that's needed to show up and want to participate. But there's another sense of safety in the sense of, God, sometimes you need to have adrenaline pumping because things like run a little better harder faster and I don't know where this goes but I don't think I don't think that's an or. I think it's a different facet. And, and you, and you, and there's a, and there's a slider from really slow sleepy lazy river and rapids. That's a dimension and I don't have any judgment about that. As a, as a both can be really effective in their differences and meaningful and valuable. The safety piece for me is more about that fear is such a pervasive ubiquitous underlying presence today in everything. Safety in this in the multiple ways that can manifest for any for an array of individuals, but safety from the standpoint of people being able to reconnect with their own voice agency authority. And step into and participate and contribute. Without overhanging legacy imprinted things to be afraid of. And, and so the safety in that context, it doesn't map to the sort of experiential design the pace, the nature of those arcs and dynamics as much as just the openness of the invitation and the sensitivity and awareness of the way people are going about it so that nobody is. Nobody silenced intimidated or driven to leave, because they just don't feel like it's a good idea for them to take a risk or take a chance or contribute or open their mouth. Next time. Yeah, just to follow up on that great, great comments. There are a lot of groups that I participated in where the safety issue was raised the safety issue was addressed and managed through a lot of group work and process work. And integrating Jerry's comment about you don't want to be too safe. The formula might be it's just a simplification is, I feel completely safe with the people I'm in this lifeboat with. I'm safe about my period the people who are trying to work together, we together are not safe, we together have a big challenge, and we better get going on it, or we'll be in trouble so a little bit of a simplistic formula but maybe that'll be helpful. Okay, thank you. So that really helps to our place. Sorry, and he did a moment to unmute. As a woman in this group, then I don't know Stacy's listening. I am curious if the men have any idea of what it's like to not be a male in a male body on this planet and what safety means. Have you ever thought about it a bunch. I think none of us can have that experience, because we haven't been there. And it's not a thought thing. Right. One of the things I love about online spaces way back in the day, when you know the first online avatars and all that showed up and you could pick people could pick roles. I kind of really liked that because there'd be a lot of bros who would adopt a female persona, and suddenly get a virtual experience of what that might be like, which maybe stereoscopic Zuckerberg metaverse world will do a better simulation but but just the simplicity of that and the fact that men's kind of unwittingly walked into walking in women's virtual shoes for a short period of time and experiencing that I think was profound for a bunch of people but I've not seen any studies on this. Go ahead, Laura. You're muted again. That's a micro experience, because just listening to this conversation at a somatic level, how you guys are firing out quick ideas from the intellect, which I love is not the same as a place for resonance for us all to be expected to be included and and for all of us to thrive in and that quick firing. When I'm in an intellectual environment often reminds me of a rape, because it's all about speed and time. And when I talk to First Nations people they talk about how Roberts rules of order is actually the tool of the undoing of democracy because it is such a bully tool that the needs of all can't possibly be brought in because you can, you can, you can run it well but most of us don't. How we've learned to use Robert's rules of order is a tool of violence in the most part. And, and this is not about making men wrong. This is about us realizing what we've normalized as a society and why we've gotten to a place where imminent is upon us because of environmental issues it's all interrelated. And, and this isn't about blame it's about wow, you know how, how can we slow these reactions down and get into relationship with others so that we can build a better future. And you're bringing up topics we've touched in the past and issues that I ponder and don't solve well and I'd love to pass the mic to Ken, who I think has something to say about it. You're muted. Well, like to share my screen for a second if I could. So this question was posed to women and men of. You're not sharing yet. The question was posed to women of what do you think about when it comes to safety when you leave the house and here's the answers. Men in the left column. I don't think about it at all. Here's what women say. This was really potent for me to look at. And my wife is constantly telling me, men have no idea, you know, you have just don't know what it's like to be a woman and to walk out of your house and not know. If you're going to get back safely or not, it's always on her mind and I think the mind of a lot of women, especially as we look at the increased environment for violence now. So this is just really sobering. Because as a man, I don't think about these things, you know, I, in some instances, if I'm in a bad neighborhood, you know, I'm thinking about it, but mostly I walk around the world like I'm totally safe and fine and I know women who do not ever have that feeling. And I'm very much Rana talks about the impetus for most people until very recently was to make the world safe so that you could bring harmless naked, tasty to predator babies into the world and raise them up to be adults without their dying. And so love was the organizing principle for society until very recently. And we've gotten away from that. And I'd like us to get back to that. I'll stop sharing and shut up. And thank you. One of my favorite things on this topic and it cuts into many other topics is the privilege of privilege is not noticing the privilege. You know, when walking down the street, I don't often cross to the other sidewalk because somebody looks suspicious coming down or when in a store I don't worry that our guard is going to shadow me or whatever else there's so many, there's so many different ways that we don't notice the privilege. Doug. Yeah, I think we've all thought about this. Practicing psychotherapy for 25 years where half the clients were women. I got the privilege of experiencing some of this. So I can imagine it. The idea of your body being the target of the world constantly is an amazing experience that the world wants to make you pregnant without asking your opinion. It's a constant feeling so the vulnerability is something we carry, but for the men being the arrow in the story. That's also real and human. And what we need to do is to find ways, not of suppressing one or the other, but of how to integrate them into a livable culture where men can be men women can be women, and people are not so afraid. Like, and I'm going to ask a question of the group seeking wisdom to answer the question to law put in front of us which is, and it's personal means like what can I do to run these calls in a different way to create the spaces that to Laura is talking about, because there is a bit of the, a bit of the death march to it like hey we're in here and let's let's let's share what we know let's do it quickly. Let's let's go through. And to some of us that feels like efficiency and fun sharing of stuff that we know and in that sense a revelation of whatever's inside our, our brains and sort of touches our hearts, although we don't go into the matter that much that often and every now and then we do and, and when we hit those spaces it feels great, but I'm not a good enough facilitator to take us into those places. More intentionally more frequently more consciously. So all suggestions welcome, including after this call is over. And one thing I use now and then is silence, I don't do it that often here in in our calls but, but if I'm facilitating a meeting in person, I will take the group into silence pretty often. Another thing I'll do sometimes it has little to do here but the last people who've contributed a lot to step back. Go ahead. You want to time out. I wanted to ask you to step back. Okay. Yeah, because you asked a very interesting question, and it was met with some silence. I was, I was talking kind of to fill the space until someone gesture. Right and I, and I, and I would have liked you to just stay with silence until someone gesture. Sounds great, which is often a very. It both gives room to people who aren't quick. It also lets something develop which might be a discomfort. You've done this as a facilitator in a room or allowing a discomfort to happen. That can give something give rise to something else so I think you're a very good facilitator, and I would invite you us to start with simply having more pauses. You know, have a longer pause between when one person speaks and the next person speaks. That might be just the simple move to make it to start and there's no doubt others. The, the, the rush to jump in is great and has consequences. Thank you. Anyone else. Please restate the question. My question is what could I do better. What could I understand better and implement better to bring us into the, those the spaces that tomorrow described more frequently and more intentionally. I would suggest recasting that to what can we do. And certainly you're, you're shepherding us and, and helping us. I was trying to make it, I was trying to make it really specific so that we could sort of grab one brick in the face of the building and sort of address that but it's I'm clearly, I'm clearly thinking for we. I think that's the wrong place to be specific. Okay. It's definitely a way thing. Laura, please. I believe it's an evolutionary process and in a male dominated where we like to tick our boxes and say we did it so I appreciate Jerry you saying I want one specific thing so I can begin this. But it is absolutely an evolutionary process and, and there is a when one makes the mind shift to want to include others. And you get committed to that you start learning skills on how to do that. And, and the world that we have all grown up in was the opposite of that it was about get to the destination achieve the goal. There's a book called ruined by rewards and how our schooling system actually causes this problem because we go for the rewards as opposed to the sense of collective well being. And I, this is probably illegal here. But because it's part of the conversation, my husband and Ken Homer who's sitting here are working on a course that will help people develop the personal skills to bring this level of embodiment. And, and you all have beautiful intellects and skills, and, and it wouldn't take much for you just to polish that up with a few key pieces to have the tools to polish and, and as we grow this as a normalization, like a small group of brilliant men like you guys. And, and this on as something you want to add to your existing skills. That is how we're going to grow this, because that's the leadership, the masculine having the courage to take this on in a new way is the turning point of our society right now. So I have small comments and which is said to the first, I'm not looking for one answer to implement. I'm actually looking for broad advice mindset shifts subtle things exercises I might stop and run now and then any a lot, you know, a wild, crazy sort of routine of that. I think I'm doing a lot of things to try to include others. I know that the, I know that the dynamics of these conversations aren't inclusive in the way you just described. But I know that I have a lot of facilitator stuff that I do on purpose that tries to bring in the people who I notice are not participating or who seem like they have something to say but are not saying whatever, and I do a lot of that. So let me go quiet again just to see what else we have. Eric, I'm not sure what April would do and I hate to say this I'm likely a better facilitator than April is at this point because I have just done so much more of it. And to allow the book was punished by rewards, which is terrible for me to say because I googled it as you were saying it instead of sitting patiently and listening to you and it's an example of what we're talking about here so. One thing you can do Jerry. One thing you could do is, there have been a lot of women they've been on these calls over the couple years have been doing them who are no longer here. So you could contact them and say hey, I noticed that you were here for a while now you're not is there some reason you left was that something we did or weren't weren't doing what would make it attractive to you. Because we've spoken so many times on these calls about how we're male dominated and mostly gray haired or no hair or whatever the case may be, you know, follically challenged but there have been a lot of women have shown up for a call or two that I would love to see again and not here. So, if we just let them go we don't know why they left so doing a little digging of saying, what would make this attractive to you might be a way to start to help us all create that more inclusive space. And Doug Doug be brought when infinity into the room today and Trey has been on whereas on multiple calls early on so was parm jit who's been working with her. Love them both and they've gone off to do infinity. And I'm like, bless him. And, and if they come back to us and say, here's how OGM might be able to put turbo boosters on when infinity can you help us in this way I'm totally up, up and game. And I don't want to interrupt their decisions to do that instead of this. But yes, I totally, I totally get that. Doug then Pete then Doug be so Doug see first. I think that many of us have had the experience of that follows from our age of being in groups that are mixed sex where we're invisible. So women have an older women have an experience a lot. And whether just here we're not. This is, I'm reaching for a hypothesis that we are not the relevant age for female anticipation. Anyway, just a thought. What's that mean Doug. Yeah, I'm not sure I understood that other. The gravel was the lower that we older guys are not of biological interest to the women. So, and how does that play. So then the women don't stay because they don't make the connection. I think the suggestion of Jerry talking to people who've been here and left is going to be more useful than our speculations about why they left. Well, it certainly would be good to do that. With respect I don't mean to step on what you said but that's, yeah. Let's go to Pete then Doug. I want to appreciate the intent behind Ken suggestion can thank you. And, and I also want to caution us that's the kind of thing where you're asking somebody to do a lot of work on your behalf without necessarily a lot of award. You can go to your mode to go to somebody and say hey why don't you play with me, I think. I, you can, you can enter those conversations but you have to do it I think with with with a lot of compassion for why they might have left that you kind of don't own the answer to. And with first I request. Hey, do you mind helping me out hey can I ask you something personal about why you, you know, without any, you know, without any judgment or expectation that they're going to say, Oh yeah, sure I want to help. This is, this is one of the things I've kind of picked up as as an ally for women or for, you know, this is disadvantaged, you know, through race, or whatever. It's like, you know, it's really easy for white men to go you owe me an answer. I mean we wouldn't say it that way but the you owe me an answer for why you know you won't play with me it's like, no dude I do not. You know. And so I know some of the women who've been here we an observation. That I have as many of the women who come through here say I really enjoy the you know this conversation and it's just kind of not for me. I, I want to relate the, the sensitive parts of me I won't say feminine the sensitive parts of me would have a really hard time answering that question. You know it's like, I don't know I you know it just wasn't, it wasn't fun or there weren't enough people like me or we didn't talk the way I like to talk you know and, and this, it reminds me. The, the ally stuff that I've read it's like the right answer to that is you know when somebody says can you teach me how to be better to my black friends. It's like, dude that's on you that's your work you go figure it out. I'm not your, you know, I'm not the I'm not on the hook for that you are, you know, and you're trying to take an easy way to get the answer. I do not owe that to you, you go figure it out and come to me when you're ready to be more compassionate more caring more about let's us do stuff and not, you know, can you just tell me what's wrong. So I know, I know many of the men probably most of the men here are our compassionate and aren't the kind of smash and grab, you know, I just want to know what's wrong can you just tell me what's wrong. So folks, we've all grown up past that pretty much, but I also want to caution us not to get into that pattern. And, and to treat the people who could help us help guide us into that with a lot of respect, and a lot of, let's rebalance it, and you know I'm coming to you very humbly. I want to know what you care about. And I want to have this be a partnership where I'm contributing as much to our global understanding as, as you are not, you know, I want to come in smash grab take, take an understanding and you know, not be, not be part of not be part of an interrelationship with you. Thanks. Thanks, Pete. A tiny thing before I go to Doug. If Trey and Parmjit met in OGM and bonded and went off to go do infinity better and more. That's a win for me. Well, and Stacy check over to Stacy. I don't know why but my zoom you left on a win Jerry. If when is that what you got. He said that's a win for me and you're gone like exactly. That was my computer's version of a mic drop. I've been having this very weird thing where my zoom slow I've got a new m one Mac book pro and my zoom in these kinds of calls starts to slow down and when I start switching between apps. It takes like a second and it's very disconcerting and I can't troubleshoot it I've looked at the network monitor and the CPU usage I don't know what's happening. And I was like at some moment my zoom is going to crash and then there I had that with my m one Mac and it had something to do with recording or something like that I forget what make sure you update your zoom my zoom I yesterday latest version. So I'm on latest version of OS apps the whole thing so it's not that it's something else funky that that's messing with my both brains. I was just going to say because the brain 13 I think actually has some things where they're, they're tweaking it to the end chat. Oh interesting so maybe it's eating a lot of memory or something looked up because I'm on the latest upgrading to the brain 13. I'm on 13 I'm on the very latest. I'm on the very latest route. Back to our regular thread which was fascinating which I interrupted brutally with a with a zoom crash. Luckily, I had my harness on and airbags in the zoom room so I'm not harmed. Doug off to you. Yeah, so I've actually been on this tip for quite a while and have some of these conversations. And so for, you know, to Laura I think you really sort of, you know, said it before, which is it's a shift in consciousness. And for me, that actually came about from a video that was done of a younger Obama on a book tour. And he's reading from a chapter and one of his books about sort of when he discovered he was black and what that meant, which didn't happen until like college over him. And in his reading of that it sort of brought. In living technicolor, the black lives he matter, the black lives matter movement alive, like I got it. And then I sort of, you know, spent a bunch of time after that thinking about it and realized well, just about every other human being that's not white and male is in that category. Anybody that's not ultimately on the victim side of the patriarchy, which goes back thousands of years and as well try. But, and that and so can my reason for asking for a copy of that. Because I've invoked that list verbally, especially with like women who I coach about, you know, you and I are in different classes but because I, they'll share a story. And then we'll have been like a really patriarchal and obnoxious thing. And they'll almost deflect it. And not, you know, they'll mention it but in passing and I'll go hold on a second, like, you know, what that person did isn't okay. And you don't have to like, tolerate or put up with that or minimize that are deflected or be subjected to that like, you know, you can, you can begin to, you know, recognize those these micro aggressions and, and, and gaslighting and stuff, and not let it be okay. And I had a conversation with Wendy McClain about this specifically from the standpoint of, you know that thing about a bunch of, you know, usually, you know, middle aged or gray here, white men and a room going where all the women go in groups just like this. And, and like, you know, there's the politic gender gender level, the male female thing. And that is just a safety, like is this, is this okay. Or am I just going to be run over and and she came back with something that was just really, I think, amazingly helpful for me, which was, well, I'm not really worried about that, like the nature of the men that I'm hanging with are generally pretty involved. It's not like an obviously overtly patriarchal croc going on projection going on and aggression going on. She said, it's actually on a, on a different level which I, I translate into the difference between divine feminine and divine masculine qualities. And she said, it's like a board, like I come in, and it's one person after another after another, saying, look at mine, look at mine, look at mine. And there's this growing stack of pickup sticks of each individual's possession, you know, a reproprietary solution for me, and value contribution. But there's no one's aggregating those and creating anything new. They're not birthing anything. They're not bringing new life. They're not creating new value. And if that's not there, it gets boring. I'm out of there. I want to go someplace where I am, you know, collaboratively bringing something into existence actually, you know, creating. And, and I've spent a lot of time thinking about that in terms of, you know, divine divine feminine has to with earth that has to do with water, it has to do with nurturance and growing, you know, the actual like birthing of things. And, you know, the masculine omens fire and air. It's intellectual. And it's, it's, it's needs on an energetic level. But it's, it's not the birthing and nurturing stuff. And so I just took to share the fruits of inquiries like you're talking about making Pete that you were suggesting. I think a lot of those pieces are floating around. And, and they're operating in the, in the liminal spaces between energy flows and dynamics of human beings. Being living co-creating together that, you know, in current cultural frame, we're deaf dumb blind and not in recognition of not an awareness of, but they're there. Sorry, I didn't mean to take us to the brink here. Thanks, Doug. I like your brinking. I appreciate what you just said. And I just wanted to jump in with a couple of things I'll lower my hand. A couple of things. And what you said, just kind of clicked a couple of things together in my head. One was that I was sitting here thinking gosh, Pete, I think I'm going to speak for you. Pete and I obsessively research stuff, go Google it, look it up, put it back in. And we're like puppies, like surrounding people, a bunch of people who are walking out in the woods. And we're like, look, look, look, I found a squirrel. I found a squirrel. You like squirrel? You like squirrel? And then there's like pine cone. God damn, there's a pine cone. This is the coolest pine cone and look. And, and I'm busy taking the pine cone and putting it into my little mushroom mycelial structure called the brain. So while we're on this talk, I'll just share screen just to be really obnoxious about it. While we're on this while we've been on this call I have woven this artifact I have made this little tapestry. I've got quotes in here about the divine feminine masculine to Native Americans Roberts rules of order is a tool of violence I have it under Roberts rules of order, which I've got a bunch of stuff on. These are, this is my contribution and I've got six or 10 tabs open in my browser for things I'm going to go do after this call to look up and put in. And I feel like I'm doing happy. And, and here's the problem. This is dopamine hit for me I am doing happy work I'm thrilled to be in conversation with all of you, and my doing this as quickly as I can, which is a form of violence makes me really happy, and I'm kind of addicted to it. So, just putting aside the tools, desisting from the note taking and the weaving and the sculpting is hard for me, but every now and then I do it and particularly when I'm face to face because then I sit and I'm just going to listen I'm going to shut the laptop I'm going to listen, but here I have all these tools sitting at, you know, at hand, one of which just crashed on me annoyingly but and, and, and as my machine was slowing down and my ability to do this was getting worse, I was really unhappy it was like. I was sort of googling and weaving and sharing so so Peter and Pete, not if I'm speaking for you, like, more or less met some that's okay, and I'd love to hear what you think. And then there's this other thing that comes in which is, I'm very interested in what does generative masculinity look like I think that one of the major problems in our world today is that there's way too much toxic masculinity, we're busy pointing to it, but men very good role models or or or understandings of what it would look like for yin and yang to be rebalanced in our souls for us to do a good job stewarding and shepherding for all the different kinds of things and I think that maybe there's a topic call for us about, hey, what does generative masculinity looks look like. There's probably another topic call about hey, what is collaboration between the masculine and the feminine look like in particular the divine versions there of, but stuff like that and and so. Yeah, Michael's writing in the chat it looks like hey look my brain's the biggest my, and I'm like, no no no I'm like a puppy weaving this thing, and I wish I were weaving it with all of you. One of my goals that's one of the reasons OGM even exists is I wish that I was weaving this with you as we go. Pete the floor is yours. Thanks, thanks all for we're at the half hour so we're kind of in overtime. I just wanted, because Jerry opened that door a little bit I wanted to speak into my experience of why I'm running around like a puppy hunting squirrels and pine cones. For me it's actually, it's a neurodiversity thing. So if you think of me in high school. I was super high performing not because I tried but just because that's the way my brain works. And the way I coped in classrooms which seemed really really slow to me as either I was doing the homework before it got assigned which I really enjoyed. So then that at the end of the class the teacher could say yo Pete is there anything we should know about the homework you just finished. The main thing that I would do is I would sit literally right in front of the teacher the teacher's desk would be in front of me and I would be up, but it up next to it and I would be doodling the whole time. As hard as I could and doodling like in in complicated ways, like writing in mirror or writing like writing vertical lines but going this way kind of an all kinds of or programming I was I used to do programming calculators and stuff like that. And so if you think about that this is me essentially being, you know anti authority I was, I was breaking the rule but since I was so high performing in the class the teachers would look down on me and go okay I guess peace listening. Thank God, you know, that whole dynamic worked back in the 70s. When, when we were less cognizant about neurodiversity. So, um, I have this really weird, one of the weird things I've kind of observed about things that are superpowers or the superpower and super weakness are kind of opposite opposite sides of the same coin. You know I can't pay attention very well unless I'm hyper stimulating myself in some other way. And at the same time, I am really, really good I can stay quiet and listen, contentedly, without a computer in a conversation for a half an hour an hour, an hour and a half. When everybody else has to have talked, you know I can just be, be chill and be listening and paying attention. But my experience of any kind of communication conversation is usually that it's going way too slow for me and so I need to be doing searches in the background to just to keep up. So, um, I am pleased to be in an audience of people that that don't get freaked out about me posting links and stuff like that or, or, or doing Google searches mile a minute. It helps me pay attention is why I'm doing it, and it is never about, you know, competing to be first. Jerry, I wanted to relate kind of into the same place. I wanted to relate. I ended up talking to one of the women who has come through and gone back out without any rancor, but it's just like, yeah, it's not my, not my deal this kind of meeting is not my thing. I love you all to death. I like hearing you once in a while, I'll drop in every three months, six months, nine months, whatever but it's not my thing. I, you know, the, the answer that that person would have to why don't you come back. I'm not sure it would be more like it. I'm not sure it would be more than it's not my thing. But she said something really interesting to me and Jerry and I love you to death, and I love that you brain. Maybe love to death is the wrong way to say that I love you to life. And I appreciate you a lot the way that you brain and it fits with the, you know, my neurodiversity as well. She said something really interesting though she said, you know, the, the what it is Pete is that Jerry is is essentially facilitating the meeting to be able to feed stuff into his brain to curate stuff in his brain. So the check, you know, a check in meeting or even a topic meeting in a sense is facilitated. Not, I mean you're very caring and sharing and things like that, but you're facilitating it with essentially the, you know, implicit goal of making a good tapestry in the brain. And so I wonder, I was kind of fascinated by that observation, and I apologize for not having told you that in private some earlier time and now telling you that in public but it is what it is. And I think you and I both can can handle that. But I think, you know, hearing some of the things to Lara said, I'm not sure a meeting where we're collecting pine cones for whatever reason we're doing pine cones and squirrel sightings. I'm not sure that kind of a meeting is necessarily going to be a meeting that the people who are more women brain would find interesting whether they're men or women. You know, maybe it's just not the way it works. So, um, I don't know. So there you go. That's really useful Pete, I really appreciate it. We are over time. I'm anybody who needs to drop off please do grateful for your presence and let's go to Gil and Kim. We're over time says thank you for staying boy. You know, we will send this last thing first. I would echo the comment that to Lara and I both posted in the chat that it may be, maybe a good idea to have the folks who like to knit during the meeting. Do that and have other people facilitate. Maybe we rotate the facilitation. Maybe we learned to have meetings that are solitational less we've talked a bunch before about Quaker meeting. We've talked a little bit about tribal council. There's a long history of human beings being together and speaking together in different forms. You know, to accommodate the diversity. And feed something richer. I'm sorry to Lara left everyone to thank her for being here. We're giving her full name. I've known her for years and never knew. I want to say a few unpopular things, maybe, if I may. I don't have any commitment to this group being diverse. I don't feel an obligation for hitting quantitative proportions in anything. And for me that's often the distraction from the purpose at hand, and I hugely value diversity, and I love being groups that are diverse, and they're enriching to me in very different ways. You know, I know that none of us is as smart as all of us. And so I thrive on that, you know, the open raw. We lose Jerry again. I'm here. Oh, there you are. Okay, sorry. I'm hiding. Yeah. So, I'm all for it but I don't feel it as an obligation and I do think it's interesting to know why folks do and don't hang out with us like Pete I echo what you're saying it maybe just not for me and that's fine. No problem with that. Really quickly, because I know over time, Doug B talked about about being in a space and being in a moment and I want the next phrase I wanted to hear was being in the body. And I really resonated with your observation about the the facile adoption of the term ecosystem for things that are not living. And not complex in a way that ecosystems are as as an ecologist by background that one's that one's annoyed me for a long time. Because it's like sort of a blind simplification that's missing something very sort of become the ecosystem in business means a collection of stuff. Kind of not much more than that. Speaking of collections of stuff. Miro drives me absolutely crazy. The notion of brainstorming, which used to be fun and really tired of the people say let's brainstorm what they really mean is kind of let's think. Let's explore, let's develop ideas together rather than just throw squirrels on the wall with postage. Doug talked about the, the climate investment and climate reducing activities are some really important question. But for me it doesn't say let's not do anything it says let's look at the energy return with the best for the carbon return investment put in for what we get out. And that will often mean to, you know, maintain and improve and rehabilitate stuff we already have rather than tearing it down and building the newest fanciest, most energy efficient thing. There's a nuance in there that's really important. Very, or somebody talked about it was you talked about managers and workers never getting together to talk about automation, etc. Miss quoting badly here, but wonder gone does that does that all the time, you know, 10s of thousands of people and collection of walkers. They are cutting edge technologically some of the most advanced companies in Spain, and their commitment is that if your work becomes redundant is the technological advance. There's other work for you. We have a commitment to each other. And that goes back to the question of who owns things. And how do the governance structures reflect the stake and you know how do we share the value that we create together which is why I'm doing a business. Several points in the conversation where people said well nobody is doing X or somebody should X. And I'm really struck by how many thousands of people around the planet are doing exactly X but folks aren't aware of. And so there's this tendency to want to reinvent things. Again, you know the marine example you talked about before there's stuff like that happening. And maybe the folks in the room are aware of it or maybe not. But we need to be able to share and learn and build on what each other does, which is one of the reasons why, you know, Jerry your creation of brain or things like that are so are so valuable. Yeah, this was a check in, right, not a thematic call so check in calls are going to be kind of spring. And they generate lots of thematics that we want to spend time on the challenges and if we, if you know if somebody raises a thought we dive down that tunnel, then we don't have as much time for everybody else to check in. Here I am at the end of time and Michael still hasn't done and Stacy hasn't and so you know there's a challenge in facilitation and the balance of that. For me the quick personal check in is so to the to the sharing value thing I'm trying to build a company that invests in employee owned companies and grows that sector. That's the intersection of that sector and the climate transition. Yes, I'm checking in. You are you sort of sees the moment and went off into your list of items that you wanted to check in with I'll just sort of point that out. Is that not what we're doing. We're over time and I was hoping to have wrapping comments so I wasn't. I'm going to you for thoughts around where we were more than more than the check in. And I was wondering whether or not Michael would get to check in but. I mean, let me just to very brief things so I'm doing that and it's very fun moving that from concept on the ground. I'm rediscovering long form writing finally after years of being battered and ruined by Twitter and Facebook and all that and so I'll share a post later today about the election and things. And I'm fascinated that there hasn't been a word about Twitter and master on this whole conversation. I'm sort of relieved about that but thank you. I'm not I'm not unhappy I'm just fascinated. It's surprising this bunch. Thank you. Thank skill. Ken Michael then we'll wrap the call. And Michael. Go ahead. I understand master on as a mammoth undertaking, but that's another thing entirely. I'll be very brief I just want to say if I was unskillful earlier when I spoke I was not suggesting that men put themselves in position of going to women and saying tell us what to do. I was, I was saying. Jerry, Jerry could say, you know, I noticed you were previously on calls you're not here. Is there something we did. Is there something we'd make this more attractive and totally fine if they say it's just not my thing. I don't know how, if we don't ask women to get their get the understanding of what they would need here so it puts it puts us a little bit of a mind of you know I understand as a white person agent my own work before I go and talk to black people as a man I think I've done my work to talk to women. But maybe I haven't. So I just want to clarify that that I was not suggesting that it be a you that we're demanding an answer I did not intend that at all and if I, if that came through I apologize that wasn't my intention. Thanks, can I appreciate that and I have the intuition that we need to do more work. And I can I'm not even sure I could explain that but the, the amount of work that is just by asking the question, it can be a lot of. And, and Gil I'm sensitive to your, your, your doodledge about language but just asking the question can be really a frontative. And then, and then, you know, having, and I can say some of this because I have some of the same thing I'm not a woman and I don't have, you know, I'm not oppressed in the way that women are pressed. I have a sensitivity, a neurodiverse sensitivity that makes it really hard for me to even hear a question because if I don't want to give you an answer I feel compelled to give you an answer anyway and that's, you know, like, a lot like all of a sudden I just did a lot more work that I did not want to and you made me do it and you know, and to put somebody else in that position makes me really uncomfortable. I'm, and I know that there are women graces and an example of somebody I'm pretty sure we could go to and say, yo, what's the, what's up, dude, and she would just give you an answer or she would say go f yourself may not want to say to just a fyi. I, you know, and well so a lot of a lot of the women, especially the younger women I know are using dude, you know, and I feel really ashamed of calling them dude. If I don't do that I'm actually like calling myself out as anyway. Um, it's complicated. It is. Yeah, I have the intuition that we could do more work first. And I would want to do that. Thank you Pete. Michael, everybody who's here is here of their own free volition. Feel free to check in. I have another person who will join this call at the top of the hour which is my next planned call he will be amused to discover this group. In fact, this group might really enjoy him is john under coffler who's the inventor of the interface that Tom cruise uses and minority report. But that is our my only constraint right now please. The floor is yours. And I'm sorry I put you at the end of the queue today. Is he as ashamed of his contribution to minority report as as Jared linear is. I just don't think that he and Sharon are like even on the same orbit in the same planetary system in some way. It's interesting. Well, my check in was going to be something else but I do want to react a little bit to, to the conversation the term the conversation. I think that I think Tyler as initiation, and a lot of a lot of what I've heard about this group and the way that that we are in our role and our inclusivity or lack there of, and what we have to offer. Well, you know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't compare it to the experience of being a woman in this group. I do feel peripheral in this group. Other than, you know, my familiarity. I don't feel the, the, the gift at holding forth that, you know, most of the people I see on my screen right now, you know, do and some of the regulars who've already left or been here. And a couple of them women, like, you know, I think, I think grace feels feels more at home holding forth than I do. But, you know, being in a space where you're peripheral, which is, I know a common experience for non straight white males of, you know, a certain age is. You know, when wouldn't when infinity came up and the idea that Trey and I don't remember the other 100. What had had been here and now weren't. I feel like when you come here and and offer your willingness to be on the periphery of this group, which I feel like I do and I get what I get from it. I don't expect people, I don't think this is a welcoming place for people to come. Truly participate. You know, I feel comfortable enough to be on the periphery and and then I also go to other groups that don't look like this group where I am on the periphery. And, you know, I don't wait into holding forth because I'm not necessarily welcome to and they're younger groups, you know, groups in which I'm in the minority. I don't know if it's color or gender or sexuality or location, age, whatever. And I I think about the way, you know, Jerry, you were looking to explore the way that you moderate and the way the tenor of this platform and the, you know, the the way we expose the bigness of our brains is kind of there's an exhibitionist, you know, nature to it like where we're going around the room opening our raincoats and saying, oh, you think that one's big, you know, and and the fact that people come in and feel like, you know, I don't really want that experience. I don't want to play that game to me is totally unstartling. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm sometimes feeling like I'm barely here in that way. And, and it's, you know, there's the the minor, the big win is hold forth impressively, you know, which, which many people here are able to do. And the little win is quippy puppy, or or link bearing puppy. And, you know, and I play that game in the chat a lot. And, you know, have that have that minor win but it's all very quantitative and it's funny as we come out of the conversation about politics and how politics are covered as this quantitative stat driven sporting events that with wins and losses as opposed to an exercise in problem solving for purpose of of cooperative governance. And the listening here is good if you listen, but, but it is built around. Oh, I've got something and Jerry I would say that your, your moderation is often, you know, your contribution begins with that reminds me of something in my brain, literally in the brain or, you know, something that is an interesting quippy puppy footnote to like something someone said, and that's a win for you. And, and, and, you know, the plus ones in the chat are wins. And, and when, when we talk about the idea of us being able to help others, as we gather it, you know, an OGM, you know, weekly for years now. You know what can we do to help others like when infinity or whatever. I don't think we're in a position to help others, however generous we feel and I feel like we're like, I would phrase it by saying we are actively failing to position ourselves in a way that could be supportive you know we've created sort of a safe cave for us and this way of being. But it's not really. I mean, I come here and I enjoy it and I love you all and I learn. We're not proactively doing anything by being here. And we're taking our own time. Imagining that by being here we're leading when we'd be more contributive and supportive if we were out there following groups that don't look like us. We're learning about them and and Ken there was something that you said about, like, I don't feel, I feel I have to do the work before I go into the spaces with these other people. And I feel like going into spaces with other people is doing the work and listening and not speaking, and, and maybe that, you know, results down the line in this room looking different. And inviting people into this room doesn't make it doesn't work. So yeah, that's not my check in, but I'll skip my check in for this time. Michael that was really good and useful and lovely and I really appreciate what you said. You said puzzled me like the idea of a big win and OGM, and I realized I have to set myself out of myself to see what you said to even see it, because to me, anybody lurking here is a win. Like like anybody who chooses to spend an hour with us and even just listen and maybe walk away and and hopefully they chose to be here and OGM because every now and then they walk away with with a shiny nugget. But Jerry, I mean that's that's a win because you have gotten you have expanded. I don't mean to be. This is sounds partial cynical but you know, you've expanded the audience of followers that that this is for for all of us, but you know, most obviously of course to you for you since you post it and are most associated with it. And, and I feel like, you know, we, we win. I don't, you know, I mean, I say repetitive things. You know, we all say repetitive things. And, and, you know, I, you know, Klaus. Kind of know what class is going to say before he starts talking in general, and, and, you know, Doug C and, and, you know, you know, different people in different ways and I don't mean to say that, like, disparagingly, it's, it's rich and it's good. And, you know, giving people the little goodies that they can walk away from here with and hopefully come back doesn't seem expansive. I don't know. And I mean, it's, it's, it's obviously a good enough thing that I'm that I'm here and just I'm questioning some dynamics of it. It's a punty and a very useful way and I'm sorry that we're sort of like, I'm going to run out of time shortly, although when john joins I'm just going to ask him to join this conversation and see what happens but there's lots of things in my head from what you said and I'm, I'm, it could be that who shows up here is merely an artifact of me and what I'm doing and what I, what I instigate in the group and that that's sort of it and that and that would be sad for me because that means that that is not appealing to women people of color, etc etc, and that could be a lesson I walk away with. For me, this is a sense making exercise. And in this series of calls, which I kind of instigated at the beginning of lockdown, I'm kind of the head instigator, and I feel like when I say hey that reminds me of or what do you think about. I'm trying to make sense with all of us, whatever it is that we're chewing on, and I'm throwing on the table, my own personal perky often perspective, and hoping that anyone else in the crowd who feels like it will step up and go yeah but that's kind of wrong or I think you know I saw this and what about that. And when we sort of lay these pieces next to each other and something starts to emerge. There's this wonderful sense of construction in the conversation. And then, as I kind of just described in the meantime I'm busy squirreling away trying to build a larger longer lasting artifact out of all these arguments and different little pieces, little shiny bits of diamond. I'm trying to sort of put them into something to build something that might be useful later, and I don't even know at what scale or to whom. But I know that there are art brute primitive artists out there who make dioramas out of use toothpicks of the Bay Area, and I'm not doing that and I feel like me scrolling stuff away in this very weird brain thing is far more civilizationally useful than building a diorama of the Bay Area. And that's my quirk. And so there's a lot of my quirks that are in here that are part of it. And I realize that there's this kind of weird seeming competitive. Oh my God I found it first kind of thing. And Pete and I are sort of the people out on the on the van of that. And maybe that's just a piece of what this call is because I love Quaker meeting and I would go to Quaker meeting to get Quaker meeting. And maybe we need a trigger warning that says hey, in this room, everybody's welcome and you welcome to just step in and step out like Quaker meeting or like open space. But the general thing here is going to be sort of fast paced and every now and then we'll change the speed knob, and we'll slow things down and go into silence or whatever else, and maybe that's just the nature or format of these calls and what we do I don't know. I think what are different calls what what it looks like to me is we've, and I can see this more clearly because of this conversation thank you. What it seems like to me is, especially you and I but the collected folks who like to come to these calls we like these kind of calls. And, you know, this, you know, speeding up slowing down that's probably a good thing to do. But this kind of call is not a call for most people. Probably many women, men probably many women, and I don't even know if men and women is the right way to slice and dice the people who would like this call or wouldn't like this call. It's a particular kind of call, and it's just not for everybody. Separately, now for me, OGM has, and kind of like what Gil said, I don't have a I don't feel an obligation to make this call diverse. I do feel a strong obligation to have diversity in the world and to have more fairness and for us to fight for more fairness for everybody. I'm pretty sure that's not this call. I'm pretty sure that this call isn't all of what OGM says it wants to be. So if OGM wants to be a diverse welcoming place. This is the wrong frickin kind of call to have it just blindingly obvious to me at this point. You know, it's just, this is a kind of call where, you know, it goes fast and certain people like it and certain people don't. If we want to have a diverse call with a lot of inclusion, a lot of turn taking. Well, we'll turn take sometimes in this call ain't going to cut it, you need a different kind of call where the, the, the squirrel exclamations and pine cone collecting and stuff like that probably takes a backseat. And, you know, and the call is run differently with more participation round table. And, you know, it, it would, it would be, I would, I think I could cope with that kind of call, but I would, my accommodation would be much different. I would go into, you know, the kind of space that that Michael was talking about their spaces where I'm quiet for most of the time, you know, and I'm not posting links, and I'm listening and watching people's faces. And, you know, that's the, that's, that's the activity that I want to do in that kind of call my taking. Thanks Pete. Carl. Yeah, it's just amazing. I mean, this is the timing of things to this is exactly the kind of thing but like the ideas I have, I think that wonder platform was kind of talking about I mean, they have it, you can break it. They have circles as the like for it's the rooms, and you can have anywhere from two to 14 people and they there's research that says don't make a group can't be larger than 14. I can track that down and stuff but it's just it's intriguing but I mean it's so it's such a fluid thing that we could really test out different facilitation processes and what kind of, what kind of meetings and people could, you could get a feel for which here's a B and C which one resonates the most with you or whatever and we could actually be testing some of the different facilitation. That's just one possible type of thing but I mean my idea was is basically just to have it be complete. Basically people can come in and just like invite friends and they have their own they can break off and have their own little holiday party. And then come back out and mingle with people but it's doing some proof of concepts and I think I mean I really see OGM as being kind of the of all the communities I'm part of it. OGM is kind of being a core and we've had these kind of things like we want to, we want to do, you know, different things but I think there's, you know, so I think that this can give a platform to, you know, to experiment with some different things. And then I do have, I've been paying for team brain licenses for a while I'm not using them very underutilized so I have some things so we could, we could have, in fact I could do a screen share and show you. I'm doing this, I'm doing my own Jerry thing here too. But yeah, as I said, and then yeah obviously in the last two weeks and then so other parts of it or is like, you know, what are we going to, what are we going to do in FY, you know, or in calendar year 2023 and I've kind of been joking. This is about, this has been the year of Resolving Catch-22s and things so just maybe have that, you know, like what have we resolved what are, what are our challenges we see us working on and not getting into resolutions because the January 7th, Betty White would love this because her birthday is January 17th and you get the despair calendar this January 17th is International Resolution Abandonment Day. But then every, every day is the first day one of the new year when they're just overlapping or whatever. Well, with that I'll let it go, but for the week here. Just a great conversation and it's, and this whole sense of just that we're on a resonating frequency or whatever we're kind of we're, this is definitely a little tribe and as Gil was saying I mean we have our tribe and it's like we're engaged for 90 minutes. It's like a week in this and space and then what, what are we doing the other 166 hours. Thanks, thanks Carl. And I don't, I went and looked and John hasn't sent me a oops missed the call thing so I'm going to ping him in a little bit to see what's up. Any wrapping thoughts. So I'm, I relate to OGM and the GM's out there like all of the variations on the theme as, you know, each is its unique, its own unique phenomenology, its own unique expression manifestation fruits of all the people that are in it. And whoever put the stake in the ground always has a sort of disproportionate weight because it's in the nature of the beast. And what's also growing for me is, there are these casting dimensions of who's really good for what. Like, you know, they're engineering folks and you drop them into an OGM float and they go out of their minds their heads explode, and something you design for engineering people and you get, you know, the kumbaya person drops into and it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what about what about and everybody goes no, like, we trains kind of run on time we've got a job to do bop, bop, bop, and and part of all of that, evokes for me feeling sensing into what's really needed in terms of there's a group of people and they're flowing and they're somebody's triggered or there's a reaction or there's a poll to, to, to bridge to branch and the layer of signaling those things and all of them being okay, like so and so and so and so just split to go off to here to dig into that and it's not a comment on the larger room they left behind, and it's not a judgment, one of another, etc. The reality is, from moment to moment, squirrel squirrel, right, like, what's got my attention or generating poll, or what do I want now which is different than what I want from five minutes, times however many people end up in a room. And there's this tendency to silo there's a tendency to bring a lot of expectations and judgments. And if all that stuff is let go of, how's about just really looking into feeling into what's needed to to nourish and to feed and support the way things want to roll and express themselves as they go. And, like, looking at that digging into that in a in a more generative way might reveal some really interesting needs. You know, like signaling needs, which is what I'm missing in these conversations like, I wish there were a row of buttons across the right at the top, where people could signal things and or people could inquire, you know, to indicate that they've got an inquiry that got something living and energized that they have the ability to share with everybody like so everybody else knows that person is whatever whatever. I feel like there's a layer missing. But other than that, I'm like, I'm sort of like, I'm agnostic about what anyone is I don't have any judgments about whether things are missing or not, how open how this how that five boys. Things are the way they are, and, you know, the vote with your feet, like if it's not for me. That's okay. I leave. And I really appreciate this I appreciate actually both of you, Jerry and Pete for living in the space you live in and being who you are and doing what you're doing. And I have actually had sort of niggling at the back of my mind. Okay, Jerry, maybe it's for somebody else to figure out how to put wheels on your brain. And I've been thinking about that more and more like, and that's sort of what I do for a living for a lot of other people so. And I think there is something to doing it figuring out how to do that, but in a different way. Not in the old, old paradigm way. In a live plug and play interactive way. Anyway, I think that opens a really interesting conversation for me we can have some other time would be welcome to do that love to do that. Ken, did you want to jump in. Yeah, I thought to shift us on the way out that I would tell the Microsoft joke if people like to hear that joke about Bill Gates so Bill Gates unexpectedly dies and he gets to heaven and St. Peter goes, Oh, Bill kind of wasn't expecting you. But let me look here. Let's see. You know what, you've done so much good and so much bad that we're going to have you a choice. So let me show you around heaven. And, you know, it's all silvery and there's guys with wings and playing harps and it's very sedate and you know it's not very exciting and so they get in the elevator. They get in the hell and it's a freaking party going on, you know, and Satan's there with champagne and he's toasting people in there all having a great time to his music and dancing and orgies and these. So what do you want to do, he says, Well, you know, if it's if it's all the same to you, I think I'll, I think I'll stay here in hell. And so he says, So be it. The elevator goes back up. Six months goes by and St. Peter's got a slow day because I think I'll go visit my friend Bill Gates in hell. And he gets out of the elevator and the first thing you see is this is pillar of fire and Bill Gates is chained to a pillar of fire and there's there's a man who's pecking his eyes out and he goes, St. Peter, this is terrible. Why didn't you tell me what it's going to be like. It is this nothing like what I saw when I came down here. Bill, that was a demo. Anyway, that's what happens when you introduce Windows 95 to the world. Not even our announcement dates are exactly. Anyway, I thought we could just go out on a human risk note here. So I appreciate that. Love me to see you all. Thanks. Really great conversation. I appreciate it. They came up here and wish you all the best for a great week and see you next week. Same here. Thank you. Bye.